26/01/2014 Sunday Politics West


26/01/2014

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including an interview with transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin.


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Transcript


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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.

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He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back

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the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old

:00:50.:00:53.

Labour? If you go to work by public

:00:54.:00:56.

transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -

:00:57.:00:59.

again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's

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our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week

:01:04.:01:06.

across much of the UK, but what s the outlook according to this man?

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This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party

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Here the Euro MP who really showed up in

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And with me - as always - the political panel so fresh-faced,

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entertaining and downright popular they make Justin Bieber look like a

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boring old has-been just desperate to get your attention. Nick Watt,

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Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and they'll be tweeting quicker than a

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yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami Beach. Being political nerds, they

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have no idea what I'm talking about. Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all

:02:10.:02:13.

yesterday. We kinda thought Labour would head for the election with a

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return to the 50p top rate of tax. But we didn't think he'd do it now.

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He did! The polls say it's popular, Labour activists now have a spring

:02:21.:02:24.

in their step. The Tories say it's a return to the bad old days of the

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'70s, and bosses now think Labour is anti-business. Here's the Shadow

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Chancellor speaking earlier this morning. I was part of a Government

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which did very many things to open up markets, to make the Bank of

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England independent, to work closely with business, but the reality is we

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are in very difficult circumstances and because if I'm honest you,

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George Osborne's failure in the last few years, those difficult

:02:40.:02:43.

circumstances will last into the next Parliament. Business people

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have said to me they want to get the deficit down, of course they do But

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to cut the top rate... It is foolish and feeds resentment I want to do

:03:00.:03:02.

the opposite and say look, pro-business, pro investment, pro

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market, but pro fairness. Let's get this deficit down in a fairway and

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make the reforms to make our economy work for the long term. What are the

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political implications of Labour now in favour of a 50%, in practise 352%

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top rate of tax? One of the political implications I don't think

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exist is that they'll win new voters. I'm not sure many people out

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there would think, I would love to vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not

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sure if he wants to tax rich people enough. It will con Dale their

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existing vote but I don't think it is the kind of, in the 1990s we

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talked about triangulation, moving beyond your core vote, I don't think

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it is a policy like that. If there has been a policy like that this

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year, this month, it has been the Tories' move on minimum wage. I

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thought Labour would come back with their own version, a centre-right

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policy, and instead they have done this. I think we talk about the 35%

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strategy that Labour supposed will have, I think it is a policy in that

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direction rather than the thing Tony Blair or Gordon Brown would have

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done. Where he was not clear is on how much it would raise. We know the

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sum in the grand scheme of things isn't much, the bedroom tax was

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about sending a message. What we are going to see is George Osborne and

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Ed Balls lock as they try to push the other one into saying things

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that are unpopular. The Tories, ?150,000 a year, that's exactly

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where Ed Balls want them to be. All three main parties have roughly the

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same plan, to run a current budget surplus by the end of the next

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Parliament. George Osborne said ?12 billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said

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how he is going to do it. Ed Balls is giving an idea that he is going

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to restore this 50 persons rate The contribution of that will be

:05:15.:05:18.

deminimus. It is not much, but what does it say about your values.

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Because it is that package, it is cleverer than people think. Where

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the challenge is is the question that Peter Mandelson posed at the

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last election, which is can the Labour Party win a general election

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if it doesn't have business on its side? That's the big challenge and

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that's the question looking difficult for them this morning

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Does it matter if Labour has business on its side. I thought the

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most fascinating thing about this announcement is it came from the guy

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mindful of business support, Ed Balls. When in opposition and when a

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Minister and as a shadow as a result, he's been far more conscious

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than Ed Miliband about the need not to alienate the CB Bill. In the

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run-up of an election. This is a measure of Ed Miliband's strength in

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the Labour Party, that his view of things can prevail so easily over a

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guy who for the last 15 years has taken a different view. Eight out of

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ten businesses according to the CBI don't want us to leave business

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Business is in a bit of a cleft stick. Ed Miliband would like to see

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businesses squealing, and Ed Balls is clearly not so comfortable on

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that one. There's a difference on that. Mind you, they were squealing

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this morning from Davos. They probably had hangovers as well. The

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other thing they would say is this is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p

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is the optimal rate forever, it what go eventually. Isn't that what

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politicians said when income tax was introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour

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regarded 40 persons as the rate where it would stay.

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It's been a bad week for the Lib Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one

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of the worst weeks yet for Nick Clegg and his party in recent

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memory, as they've gone from talking confidently about their role in

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Government to facing a storm of criticism over claims of

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inappropriate sexual behaviour by a Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a

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Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's Giles with the story of the week. A

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challenge to Nick Clegg's authority as he face as growing row over the

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Liberal Democrat... I want everyone to be treated with respect by the

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Liberal Democrats. We are expecting him to show moral leadership on our

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behalf. A good man has been publicly destroyed by the media with the

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apparent support of Nick Clegg. I would like Nick Clegg to show

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leadership and say, this has got to stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on

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Monday morning he knew he was in trouble, staring down the barrel of

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a stand justify with Lord Rennard over allegations that the peer had

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inappropriately touched a number of women. Chris Rennard thought he was

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cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I said if he doesn't apologise, he

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should withdraw from the House of Lords. If he does that today, what

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do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I think no apology, no whip. 2014 was

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starting badly for the Liberal Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to

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apologise, saying you can't say sorry for something you haven't

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done. The and he was leaning towards legal action. Butch us friends

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better defending Pym and publicly. This is a good, decent man, who has

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been punished by the party, with the leadership of the party that seems

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to be showing scant regard for due process. But his accusers felt very

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differently. It is untenable for the Lib Dems to have a credible voice on

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qualities and women's issues in the future if Lord Rennard was allowed

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to be back on the Lib Dem benches in the House of Lords. Therein lay the

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problem that exposed the weaknesses of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's

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internal structures have all the simplicity of a circuit diagram for

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a supercomputer, exposing the complexity of who runs the Liberal

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Democrats? The simple question that arose of that was can the leader of

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the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer? The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem

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whips in the Lords could do it but if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed,

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they could overrule it. Some long-stand ng friends of roar

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Rennard think he is either the innocent victim of a media

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witch-hunt or at the least due process has been ridden over rough

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shot by the leadership. Nobody ever did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't

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turn up to the Lords, will citing ill health. But issued a statement

:10:05.:10:08.

that ruled out an apology. He refused to do so and refused to

:10:09.:10:12.

comply with the outcome of that report, so there was no alternative

:10:13.:10:16.

but for the party to suspend his membership today. On Wednesday Nick

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Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a crunch decision, but to discuss the

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extraordinary prospect of legal action against the party by the man

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long credited with building its success. The situation was making

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the party look like a joke. One Tory MP said to one of my colleagues this

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morning, the funny thing about the Liberal Democrats, you managed to

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create a whole sex scandal without any sex. And we can laugh at

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ourselves but actually it is rather serious. And it got more serious,

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when an MP who had resigned the Lib Dem whip last year was expanded from

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the party over a report into allegations of serious and unwelcome

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sexual behaviour towards a constituent. All of this leaves the

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Lib Dems desperately wishing these sagas had been dealt with long ago

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and would now go away. Nick Clegg ended the week still party leader.

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Lord Rennard, once one of their most powerful players, ended the week,

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for now, no longer even in it. Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous

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week. Now, as you doubtless already know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will

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vote to choose a new deputy leader. You didn't know that? You do now.

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The job of Nick Clegg's number two is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem

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voice, untainted by the demands of coalition Government. At this point

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in the show we had expected to speak to all three candidates for the

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post, held in recent years by party veterans like Vince Cable and Simon

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Hughes. We thought it being quite a significant week for the party, they

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might have something to say. And here they are. Well that's their

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pictures. For various reasons, all three are now unavailable. Malcolm

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Bruce, he's reckoned to be the outsider. His office said he had a

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"family commitment". Gordon Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was

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booked to appear but then told us, "I was at an event last night with

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Lorely Burt" - she's one of the candidates - "and she told me it was

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off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen by many as the red hot favourite,

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told us: "Because of the Rennard thing we don't want to put ourselves

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in a position where we have to answer difficult questions." How

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refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad politically is all this for the Lib

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Dems? What I think is the tragic irony of the Lib Dems is they've

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been revealed as being too democratic. In the same way that

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their party conference embarrassed Nick Clegg by voting sings that he

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signed up to, and now everything has to be run past various

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sub-committees first. Is it democratic or chaotic? It is

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Byzantine. Mike Hancock was voluntarily suspended, and this week

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he was properly suspended. It was new information into the public

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domain that forced that. I'm already hearing Labour and Conservative

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Party musing that if it is a long Parliament, we will form a minority

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Government. It is a disaster for them. Voters like parties that

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reflect and are interested this their concerns. Parties that are

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self obsessed turn them off. The third party, if they carry on like

:13:45.:13:47.

this, they'll be the fifth party in the European elections, so they have

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got to draw a line under this. They do that, if they do, through

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mediation. As I understand it, Chris Rennard,s who has go devoted his

:13:57.:14:01.

entire life to the Liberal Democrats, and previously the

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Liberal Party, is keen to draw a line under this. He is up for

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mediation but he needs to know that the women that he has clearly

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invaded their personal space, that there wouldn't be a possible legal a

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action from them. The it is very difficult to see how you could

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resolve that. Except he is threatening through his friends

:14:21.:14:24.

these famous friends, to spill all the beans about all the party's sex

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secrets. Isn't the danger for the Lib Dems, this haunts them through

:14:30.:14:33.

to the European elections, where they'll get thumped in the European

:14:34.:14:36.

elections? They'll get destroyed in the European elections, which keeps

:14:37.:14:40.

it salient as a story over the summer. And it has implications for

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Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a good job until now, perhaps better

:14:46.:14:49.

than David Cameron, of exercising authority over his party. He had a

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good conference in September. Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems

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have looked like a party without a leader or a leadership structure.

:14:58.:15:02.

Part of that is down to the chaotic or Byzantine organisational

:15:03.:15:06.

structure of the party. Part of it is Nick Clegg's failure to assert

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himself and impose himself over events. Is it Byzantine or

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Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You don't get these words on the Today

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programme. The cost of living has been back on the agenda this week as

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Labour and the Tories argue over whether the value of money in your

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pocket is going up or down. Well there's one cost which has been

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racing ahead of inflation and that's the amount you have to pay to travel

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by train, by bus and by air. Rail commuters have been hard hit over

:15:44.:15:45.

the last four years, with the cost of the average season ticket going

:15:46.:15:49.

up by 18% since January 2010, while wages have gone up by just 3.6% over

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the same period. It means some rail users are paying high prices with

:15:56.:16:01.

commuters from Kent shelling out more than ?5,000 per year from the

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beginning of this month just to get to work in London. It doesn't

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compare well with our European counterparts. In the UK the average

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rail user spends 14% of their average income on trains. It is just

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1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like season tickets went up 3.1% at the

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beginning of this month, and with ministers keen to make passengers

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fought more of the bills, there are more fare rises coming down the

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track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins me now for the Sunday Interview

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Welcome. You claim to be in the party of hard-working people, so why

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is it that since you came to power rail commuters have seen the cost of

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their average season ticket going up in money terms by over 18% while

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their pay has gone up in money terms by less than four? I would point out

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that this is the first year in ten years that we have not had an above

:17:15.:17:20.

inflation increase on fares. The Government accepts we have got to do

:17:21.:17:25.

as much as we can to help the passengers. A big inflation increase

:17:26.:17:33.

since 2010. This is the first year in ten years that it has not been

:17:34.:17:40.

above RPI, but we are also investing huge amounts of money into the

:17:41.:17:45.

railways, building new trains for the East Coast Main Line and the

:17:46.:17:50.

great Western. We are spending 500 million at Birmingham station, this

:17:51.:17:57.

is all increasing capacity, so we are seeing investments. Over the

:17:58.:18:00.

next five years Network Rail will invest over ?38 billion in the

:18:01.:18:10.

network structure. We also have an expensive railway and it is ordinary

:18:11.:18:15.

people paying for it. A season ticket from Woking in Surrey,

:18:16.:18:21.

commuter belt land in London, let's look at the figures. This is a

:18:22.:18:27.

distance of over 25 miles, it cost over ?3000 per year. We have picked

:18:28.:18:36.

similar distances to international cities.

:18:37.:18:45.

The British commuter is being ripped off. The British commuter is seeing

:18:46.:18:53.

record levels of investment in our railways. The investment has to be

:18:54.:18:58.

paid for. We are investing huge amounts of money and I don't know

:18:59.:19:02.

whether the figures you have got here... I'm sure they are likewise,

:19:03.:19:19.

as you have managed to do... White -- ten times more than the Italian

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equivalent. We have seen transformational changes in our

:19:29.:19:32.

railway services and we need to carry on investing. We were paying

:19:33.:19:37.

these prices even before you started investing. We have always paid a lot

:19:38.:19:42.

more to commute in this country than our European equivalents. I'm not

:19:43.:19:51.

quite sure I want to take on Italy is a great example. You would if you

:19:52.:19:57.

were a commuter. You is a great example. You would if you

:19:58.:20:03.

the other rates of taxation has to be paid as well. Isn't it the case

:20:04.:20:09.

they are making profits out of these figures and using them to subsidise

:20:10.:20:13.

cheaper fares back in their homeland? The overall profit margin

:20:14.:20:22.

train companies make is 3%, a reasonable amount, and we have seen

:20:23.:20:25.

a revolution as far as the railway industry is concerned.

:20:26.:20:30.

a revolution as far as the railway 20 years we have seen passenger

:20:31.:20:35.

journeys going from 750 million to 1.5 billion. That is a massive

:20:36.:20:39.

revolution in rail. Let me look 1.5 billion. That is a massive

:20:40.:20:44.

spokesperson for the German government, the Ministry of

:20:45.:20:45.

transport. They are charging huge fares in

:20:46.:21:02.

Britain to take that money back to subsidise fares in Germany. What do

:21:03.:21:08.

you say to that? We are seeing British companies winning contracts

:21:09.:21:12.

in Germany. The National Express are winning contracts to the railways.

:21:13.:21:17.

What about the ordinary commuter? They are paying through the nose so

:21:18.:21:22.

German commuters can travel more cheaply. We are still subsidising

:21:23.:21:28.

the railways in this country, but overall we want to reduce the

:21:29.:21:32.

subsidy we are giving. We are still seeing growth in our railways and I

:21:33.:21:39.

want to see more people using them. Why do you increase rail fares at

:21:40.:21:47.

the higher RPI measure than the lower CPI measurement? That is what

:21:48.:21:52.

has always been done, and we have stopped. This is the first time in

:21:53.:21:56.

ten years that we have not raised the rail figures above RPI. You

:21:57.:22:07.

still link fares to RPI. You use the lower CPI figure when it suits you,

:22:08.:22:12.

to keep pension payments down for example, but the higher one when it

:22:13.:22:17.

comes to increasing rail fares. We are still putting a huge subsidy

:22:18.:22:21.

into the rail industry, there is still a huge amount of money going

:22:22.:22:26.

from the taxpayer to support the rail industry. I am not asking you

:22:27.:22:32.

about that, I am asking you why you link the figures to the higher RPI

:22:33.:22:40.

vesture Mark if we are going to pay for the levels of investment, so all

:22:41.:22:46.

the new trains being built at Newton Aycliffe for the East Coast Main

:22:47.:22:51.

Line and the great Western, ?3. billion of investment, new rolling

:22:52.:22:55.

stock coming online, then yes, we have to pay for it, and it is a

:22:56.:22:59.

question of the taxpayer paying for it all the -- or the passenger.

:23:00.:23:13.

You have capped parking fines until the next election, rail commuters we

:23:14.:23:16.

have seen the cost of their ticket has gone up by nearly 20%, you are

:23:17.:23:26.

the party of the drivers, not the passengers, aren't you?

:23:27.:23:33.

We are trying to help everybody who has been struggling. I think we are

:23:34.:23:47.

setting out long-term plans for our railways, investing heavily in them

:23:48.:23:51.

and it is getting that balance right. But you have done more for

:23:52.:23:57.

the driver than you have for the user of public transport. I don t

:23:58.:24:04.

accept that. They are paying the same petrol prices as 2011. This is

:24:05.:24:10.

the first time in ten years that there has not been an RPI plus

:24:11.:24:17.

rise. We are investing record amounts. Bus fares are also rising,

:24:18.:24:24.

4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a time when real take-home pay has

:24:25.:24:30.

been falling. This hits commuters particularly workers who use buses

:24:31.:24:36.

on low incomes, another cost of living squeeze. I was with

:24:37.:24:40.

Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday, and I saw a bus company investing in

:24:41.:24:54.

new buses. Last week First ordered new buses. Part of your hard-working

:24:55.:25:00.

families you are always on about, they are the ones going to work

:25:01.:25:07.

early in the morning, and yet you are making them pay more for their

:25:08.:25:10.

buses in real terms than they did before. They would be happier if

:25:11.:25:17.

they could travel more cheaply. It is about getting investment in

:25:18.:25:22.

services, it has to be paid for Why not run the old buses for five more

:25:23.:25:31.

years? Because then there is more pollution in the atmosphere, modern

:25:32.:25:35.

buses have lower emissions, and we are still giving huge support

:25:36.:25:39.

overall to the bus industry and that is very important because I fully

:25:40.:25:42.

accept that the number of people, yes, use the train but a lot of

:25:43.:25:52.

people use buses as well. High-speed two, it has been delayed because 877

:25:53.:25:58.

pages of key evidence from your department were left on a computer

:25:59.:26:05.

memory stick, part of the submission to environmental consultation. Your

:26:06.:26:08.

department's economic case is now widely regarded as a joke, now you

:26:09.:26:16.

do this. Is your department fit for purpose? Yes, and as far as what

:26:17.:26:22.

happened with the memory stick, it is an acceptable and shouldn't have

:26:23.:26:25.

happened, and therefore we have extended the time. There has been an

:26:26.:26:31.

extension in the time for people to make representation, the bill for

:26:32.:26:41.

this goes through Parliament in a different way to a normal bill. It

:26:42.:26:54.

is vital HS2 provides what we want. What I am very pleased about is when

:26:55.:26:59.

the paving bill was passed by Parliament just a few months ago,

:27:00.:27:04.

there was overwhelming support, and I kept reading there was going to be

:27:05.:27:10.

70 people voting against it, in the end 30 people voted against it and

:27:11.:27:14.

there was a good majority in the House of Commons. So can you give a

:27:15.:27:19.

guarantee that this legislation will get onto the statute books? I will

:27:20.:27:27.

do all I can. I cannot tell you the exact Parliamentary time scale. The

:27:28.:27:31.

bill will have started its progress through the House of Commons by

:27:32.:27:39.

2015, and it may well have concluded. The new chairman of HS2

:27:40.:27:45.

said he can bring the cost of the line substantially under the budget,

:27:46.:27:56.

do you agree with that? The figure is ?42 billion with a large

:27:57.:28:02.

contingency, and David Higgins, as chairman of HS2, is looking at the

:28:03.:28:06.

whole cast and seeing if there are ways in which it can be built

:28:07.:28:11.

faster. At the moment across London we are building Crossrail, ?14.

:28:12.:28:16.

billion investment. There was a report last week saying what an

:28:17.:28:23.

excellent job has been done. Crossrail started under Labour.

:28:24.:28:29.

Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in the 1990 party conference. You may

:28:30.:28:37.

get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay people so much, why is the

:28:38.:28:43.

nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on ?600,000? And the new chief

:28:44.:28:52.

executive on ?750,000. These are very big projects and we need to

:28:53.:28:55.

attract the best people become so we are going for the best engineers in

:28:56.:29:01.

the world to engineer this project. It is a large salary, there is no

:29:02.:29:06.

question about it, but I'm rather pleased that engineers rather than

:29:07.:29:10.

bankers can be seen to get big rewards for delivering what will be

:29:11.:29:15.

very important pieces of national infrastructure. I didn't have time

:29:16.:29:19.

to ask you about your passenger duty so perhaps another time. We are

:29:20.:29:25.

about to speak to Nigel Mills and all of these MPs on your side who

:29:26.:29:29.

are rebelling against the Government, how would you handle

:29:30.:29:34.

them? We have got to listen to what our colleagues are talking about and

:29:35.:29:39.

try to respond it. Would you take them for a long walk off a short

:29:40.:29:44.

pier? I'm sure I would have many conversations with them. An

:29:45.:29:57.

immigration bill to tack the immigration into the UK. When limits

:29:58.:30:03.

on migration from Bulgaria and Romania were lifted this year there

:30:04.:30:09.

were warnings of a large influx of migrant workerses from the two new

:30:10.:30:12.

European countries. So far it's been more of a dribble than a flood. Who

:30:13.:30:18.

can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz greeting a handful of arrivals at

:30:19.:30:22.

Luton Airport. But it is early days and it is one of the reasons the

:30:23.:30:27.

Government's introduced a new Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister

:30:28.:30:31.

is facing rebellion from backbenchers who want tougher action

:30:32.:30:37.

on immigration from abroad. Nigel Mills would reimpose restrictions on

:30:38.:30:46.

how many Romanians and Bulgarians can come here. Joining me is Nigel

:30:47.:30:53.

Mills, Conservative MP behind the amendment and Labour MP Diane

:30:54.:30:57.

Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there hasn't been an influx of Romanians

:30:58.:31:05.

and Bulgarians. Why do you want to restore these, kick these

:31:06.:31:09.

transitional controls way forward to 2019? I don't think any of us were

:31:10.:31:14.

expecting a rush on January 1st Andrew. I think we were talking

:31:15.:31:19.

about a range of 250,000 to 350 000 people over five years. That's

:31:20.:31:24.

obviously a large amount of people, especially when you think net

:31:25.:31:29.

migration to the UK was well in excess of the Government's target of

:31:30.:31:32.

tens of thousands last year. The real concern is that it would be

:31:33.:31:38.

ever increasing our population, attracting lots of low-skilled,

:31:39.:31:44.

low-wage people, which keeps our people out of work and wages down.

:31:45.:31:48.

Did you accept that if you were to accept this, it would be in breach

:31:49.:31:53.

of the Treaty of Rome, the founding principle of the European Union We

:31:54.:31:58.

were trying to keep the restrictions that Bulgaria and Romania accepted

:31:59.:32:02.

for their first seven years of EU membership, on the basis that when

:32:03.:32:05.

we signed the treaty we weren't aware that we would have a huge and

:32:06.:32:10.

catastrophic recession we are still recovering from. But you would be in

:32:11.:32:15.

breach of the law, correct? The UK Parliament has a right to say we

:32:16.:32:19.

signed this deal before the terrible recession, and we need a bit longer

:32:20.:32:24.

in our national interest. It is worth noting that Bulgaria and

:32:25.:32:31.

Romania haven't met all their accession requirements. The

:32:32.:32:35.

Bulgarian requirement passed a law... So if they break the law it

:32:36.:32:40.

is alright for us to break the law? Is we should be focusing on trying

:32:41.:32:46.

to get 2. 4 million of our own in work, and 1 million people not in

:32:47.:32:51.

work... Let me bring in Diane Abbott. Will you vote for this

:32:52.:32:57.

amendment and why? It is in breach of the treaty. While I deplore MPs

:32:58.:33:02.

that try to cause trouble, these MPs have been particularly mindless

:33:03.:33:05.

because what they want to do wouldn't be legal. However, it is a

:33:06.:33:11.

Tory internal brief, if I might say so. Maybe you can cause trouble by

:33:12.:33:16.

voting for it. No, that would be going too far. Underlying it is a

:33:17.:33:22.

real antagonism for David Cameron. They have had to hold off on this

:33:23.:33:26.

bill until January. It was supposed to be debating before Christmas As

:33:27.:33:30.

we speak they've not cut a deal so it could be pretty grus om. Nigel

:33:31.:33:38.

Mills, what do you say to that I think there is a recognition that

:33:39.:33:43.

there is a problem with the amount of migration from EU countries that

:33:44.:33:47.

we need to tackle. We could try to achieve an annual cap perhaps,

:33:48.:33:51.

longer limits on when countries get free movement. I think the debate is

:33:52.:33:54.

moving in the right direction, but I think those people who are trapped

:33:55.:33:58.

out of work and desperately looking for work want something to be done

:33:59.:34:03.

now and not wait a few more years while we have more assessments

:34:04.:34:08.

Andrews. People are worried about the level of immigration. They I it

:34:09.:34:13.

is too high. That's the consensus in the country. We spoke to to

:34:14.:34:19.

migration centre in Hackney and they said they are struggling to cope

:34:20.:34:22.

with the number of people using their services. These are people

:34:23.:34:26.

with problems with the law. In the past years EU migrants put in more

:34:27.:34:31.

to the economy in taxation than they take out in benefits. When it comes

:34:32.:34:36.

to free movement, which is agitating Nige em, that horse has bolted. We

:34:37.:34:41.

signed a treaty. There is nothing people like Nigel Mills can do,

:34:42.:34:46.

unless they want to rip their party apart, God forbid. Will you go as

:34:47.:34:50.

far as to rip your party apart, Nigel Mills? Are you going to take

:34:51.:34:55.

this all the way? Would you rather see this bill go down than your

:34:56.:35:00.

amendment not be accepted? This is a very important bill. I think we all

:35:01.:35:06.

want to see measures on the statute book, so the last thing we want to

:35:07.:35:10.

see is this bill go down. We do need to set out clearly that we have real

:35:11.:35:15.

concerns about the level of EU migration and something needs to be

:35:16.:35:22.

done. Would you rather have the bill without your amendment or no bill at

:35:23.:35:27.

all? I am hoping we can have the bill with the amendment. I know

:35:28.:35:32.

that, but if you can't? Is that will depend on what the Labour Party

:35:33.:35:38.

decide to do. They are talking tougher on immigration but will they

:35:39.:35:43.

take action on it? Your party has been talking tough on immigration

:35:44.:35:47.

but I will be surprised if an Ed Miliband Labour Party would vote for

:35:48.:35:51.

egg in direct cameravention of the Treaty of Rome. It would make no

:35:52.:35:56.

sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for the impossible. If I was a Tory I

:35:57.:36:03.

would be wringing high hands. He hasn't ruled out crashing the bill.

:36:04.:36:08.

That's incredible. Where will this end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a

:36:09.:36:14.

vote on Thursday. There's a lot of amendments people can use to show

:36:15.:36:19.

their concern about migration. We want limited and proportionate

:36:20.:36:22.

action, and that's what I am proposing. I want to see the bill on

:36:23.:36:27.

the statute book, I want the restrictions on people who shouldn't

:36:28.:36:32.

be here getting bank accounts and driving licences. I don't want to

:36:33.:36:36.

crash this bill but there's more measures we need in it. Nigel Mills

:36:37.:36:42.

thank you. You are going to be - popping up I think on the Sunday

:36:43.:36:47.

Politics East Midlands. Diane Abbott, thank you as well.

:36:48.:36:54.

We're in for more heavy rain and high winds across the UK today. You

:36:55.:36:57.

may remember that one UKIP councillor - he's since been

:36:58.:36:59.

suspended - caused controversy last weekend by blaming the recent

:37:00.:37:02.

flooding on the legalisation of gay marriage. Why didn't I think of

:37:03.:37:06.

that? So who better than this man to bring you the unofficial forecast.

:37:07.:37:09.

I'll be bringing you the late least UKIP weather from your area.

:37:10.:37:14.

You're watching Sunday Politics Also coming up in just over 20

:37:15.:37:21.

minutes, I'll be looking at the week ahead with our political panel.

:37:22.:37:36.

Good morning. The local Euro MP with one of the lowest voting records. He

:37:37.:37:54.

is hardly ever seen in Brussels and he claims ?200,000 a year in

:37:55.:38:04.

allowances to find an anti`EU website. I joined by a member of

:38:05.:38:22.

UKIP and a green party activist Do you put the funding down to global

:38:23.:38:31.

warming or funding change? We cannot say that anyone prevent is the

:38:32.:38:45.

result of climate change. We cannot say how it will effect as at any one

:38:46.:38:49.

time but flooding and rising sea levels are a factor. Climate change

:38:50.:38:56.

is definitely a real thing but the question is what we shall do about

:38:57.:39:01.

it and politicians are unfortunately not taking enough action.

:39:02.:39:14.

I would agree that climate change is real. In terms of flooding, it was

:39:15.:39:22.

shocking coming up through Somerset at the weekend and finding that much

:39:23.:39:27.

of it is underwater. You accept a man`made climate

:39:28.:39:31.

change? I accept climate change but how much

:39:32.:39:38.

of it is man made is up for debate. Most of the people who disagree that

:39:39.:39:44.

climate change is caused by our activities are normally involved in

:39:45.:39:51.

those activities. The question is what do we do about

:39:52.:39:55.

it? And now our main story. The UKIP MEP

:39:56.:40:04.

who is laid`back when it comes to his activities. In the last year,

:40:05.:40:08.

Trevor Colman has not made on speech are asked one question. Yet he is

:40:09.:40:15.

paid ?80,000 per year and admits that one of his reasons for turning

:40:16.:40:18.

up is the claim allowances, which he spends on a website. This website

:40:19.:40:26.

campaigns to Britain to come out of the European Union.

:40:27.:40:34.

The Euro elections always give UKIP something to smile about. Last

:40:35.:40:38.

election they won two seats in the South West, 13 in all.

:40:39.:40:48.

Two former MEP have ended up in jail. Some have left to join the

:40:49.:40:55.

Tories and others have departed acrimoniously. That is frustration

:40:56.:41:02.

and even anger amongst senior party figures at the performance of Trevor

:41:03.:41:05.

Colman. You will not find on the UKIP

:41:06.:41:13.

benches. He sits apart since a disagreement in 2010. He has taken

:41:14.:41:19.

part in just over half of the boats and has made speeches are asked

:41:20.:41:27.

questions 19 times. The total for a UKIP colleague is 673.

:41:28.:41:38.

Trevor Coleman makes no apology The European Parliament has no

:41:39.:41:41.

power. It cannot change or make legislation. We are a pantomime

:41:42.:41:50.

giving the illusion of democracy were none exists. Why make a speech

:41:51.:41:54.

when you know it is totally ineffective? You're talking to a

:41:55.:41:59.

gallery of about six people and I do not see the point of me doing that.

:42:00.:42:05.

Why did you get elected if you want to do anything?

:42:06.:42:10.

I am trying to get us out of this mess and that can only be achieved

:42:11.:42:15.

over here. One of the reasons he flies back and

:42:16.:42:19.

forth to Europe is to clock in to get money.

:42:20.:42:25.

Is one of the main motivations to enable you to get allowances?

:42:26.:42:31.

I would not see it as a main motivation will stop it is a factor?

:42:32.:42:38.

Of course it is. Most of it is spent on a website.

:42:39.:42:47.

Five staff work on it and around ?200,000 of European Union money

:42:48.:42:56.

funds and anti`European Union website he refuses to detail his

:42:57.:43:02.

expenses on the official UKIP party website.

:43:03.:43:09.

We do not have to publish any of this. If people are interested in

:43:10.:43:15.

how I spend our do not spend money they can come to this office and

:43:16.:43:19.

examine the accounts. He says he has broken all rules but

:43:20.:43:26.

other side members of the European Parliament are not convinced.

:43:27.:43:35.

There is a massive amount goes on in the European Parliament and that is

:43:36.:43:40.

why most members of the full`time in doing their jobs. I'm sorry F Trevor

:43:41.:43:51.

Colman finds it so boring you want to input into legislation and make

:43:52.:43:54.

sure that things are right for people in the south`west.

:43:55.:43:58.

You need to have people working and they are not working and making a

:43:59.:44:06.

badge of honour of not working, we have one hand tied behind our back

:44:07.:44:10.

before we start. Trevor Coleman stands down in May

:44:11.:44:16.

and UKIP hopes his successor will cause less trouble.

:44:17.:44:26.

Steve Crowther, you are chair of UKIP. What do you make of this?

:44:27.:44:39.

We have a high average and I am delighted.

:44:40.:44:48.

Trevor Colman does not work as a team.

:44:49.:44:57.

The point about how UKIP approaches the European Parliament is that we

:44:58.:45:02.

have a job to do and we do it. We campaign for Britain to come out of

:45:03.:45:06.

the European Parliament. That is different to what any of the other

:45:07.:45:10.

parties do. Is there a moral case for turning up

:45:11.:45:20.

at meetings just a claim allowances? Every MEP from everywhere in Europe

:45:21.:45:28.

receives exactly the same allowance on EU law basis. The do not have to

:45:29.:45:34.

do anything with it apart from receive it. The more you go all the

:45:35.:45:44.

more daily allowances you get. There was a comment that if you take it

:45:45.:45:49.

seriously you go a lot. You also get paid to go a lot.

:45:50.:45:57.

His salary is ?80,000 and yet he hardly represents the views of

:45:58.:46:01.

people in the South West. He spends most of his time on this anti`EU

:46:02.:46:09.

website. If you bought for UKIP, `` vote you

:46:10.:46:27.

must know what our attitude is. We spread our work and divide our

:46:28.:46:32.

labour but we have a lot of what to do here as well as a lot of work

:46:33.:46:41.

there. You could argue that Trevor Colman

:46:42.:46:52.

is being honest. I wanted to challenge the last point

:46:53.:47:02.

that Steve made. UKIP have the worst members of the European Parliament

:47:03.:47:10.

and Green members have the best It is a privilege to be paid as a

:47:11.:47:14.

politician and this is very disappointing to be treated in this

:47:15.:47:20.

way. UKIP have a policy that expenses and

:47:21.:47:25.

details are published. He will not do that. Why will you not

:47:26.:47:32.

discipline? Trevor is a man of independent mind.

:47:33.:47:39.

He is a Cornishman and has being doing this for ten years. When

:47:40.:47:50.

someone is elected as an MEP, they have freedom to design the way that

:47:51.:47:54.

they work under the rules of the European Parliament. Trevor has

:47:55.:48:00.

decided to create this particular information source and I have to say

:48:01.:48:05.

that he has attended hundreds of meetings with groups around the

:48:06.:48:10.

south`west in his time in Parliament taking that information we have

:48:11.:48:12.

found out from the European Parliament and telling people about

:48:13.:48:17.

it. Let us talk about immigration. The

:48:18.:48:25.

remaining in an bold gradient influx has not materialised.

:48:26.:48:46.

We waited and we waited but the crowds never came. On the first

:48:47.:48:53.

flight, just one man mauled by the media. So far the lifting of

:48:54.:49:08.

restrictions on Romanian and Bulgarian workers have not resulted

:49:09.:49:20.

in an increase of immigrants. They are hard`working people and

:49:21.:49:28.

they are valued by their employers. They do not understand why this

:49:29.:49:34.

negative campaign has been made against them.

:49:35.:49:44.

Some of the community in Bristol meet in this church. One family said

:49:45.:49:54.

they had the door kicked in and a teenage girl had to change schools

:49:55.:50:01.

after being repeatedly labelled an invader.

:50:02.:50:24.

We are just Steve `` Romanian. That is wrong information about us.

:50:25.:50:32.

The Conservatives claim that UKIP may be to blame for this wrong

:50:33.:50:44.

information. They must know that the figures were

:50:45.:50:49.

an exaggeration and realised that does not help the debate. We want

:50:50.:50:57.

facts and not scaremongering. There is a rapidly changing

:50:58.:51:04.

population in the West. It is unsurprising that immigration

:51:05.:51:10.

remains a live motion for the public. I have always been a liberal

:51:11.:51:21.

but I will not put liberal any more. It is important the country is not

:51:22.:51:25.

overrun with immigrants and we need to look after the English public and

:51:26.:51:28.

make sure they can get work and jobs. There is an awful lot of hate

:51:29.:51:36.

and scaremongering. People need to remember where this country came

:51:37.:51:40.

from and the fact that immigration made it what it is.

:51:41.:51:48.

The political mood music grew louder this week as the Prime Minister

:51:49.:51:53.

sought to limit freedom of movement across the European Union. The

:51:54.:51:59.

official figures come out and may just in time for the European

:52:00.:52:20.

elections. What is the case with human borders?

:52:21.:52:29.

We have enjoyed a lot of value from migration. Many engineers and the

:52:30.:52:36.

like will have to be recruited from around the world.

:52:37.:52:42.

Pressure on wages and housing will stop mass immigration will have an

:52:43.:52:47.

impact on your members? It is our job to make sure people

:52:48.:52:55.

are protected at work that our graduates have a right to go to

:52:56.:52:59.

Germany to work and we have to be careful to get the balance right

:53:00.:53:05.

about the value of cooperation. Have you find that immigrants are

:53:06.:53:15.

abused here? I was talking to a worker the other

:53:16.:53:19.

day who came to Britain ten years ago from Romania but said that in

:53:20.:53:25.

the last few weeks it has turned hostile.

:53:26.:53:31.

Do you think the government is right to stop new arrivals claiming

:53:32.:53:38.

benefits? If we have a single market and we

:53:39.:53:41.

must have the same rights in the same rules for everyone. We have to

:53:42.:53:47.

look at the quality of work across the European Union and one of the

:53:48.:53:56.

problems that happened in 2004 was that things were driven by business

:53:57.:54:00.

interests and socialist governments did not insist on minimum wages

:54:01.:54:07.

Do you accept that we are a small island and need some space?

:54:08.:54:15.

I accept that population is an important issue. We must also deal

:54:16.:54:21.

with climate change because that is making more parts of the world is

:54:22.:54:26.

impossible to inhabit. Steve, was UKIP wrong with its

:54:27.:54:34.

figures? We did not say the 29 million

:54:35.:54:42.

Romanian and Bulgarian people would arrive. We said that they would have

:54:43.:54:49.

the rights to come here if they chose.

:54:50.:54:54.

You mentioned a figure of 29 million. We think there are about 30

:54:55.:55:04.

people that have arrived. We have never said that these people

:55:05.:55:10.

would all come. We said that from the 1st of January, the European

:55:11.:55:14.

Union would grant them the right to. We have seen in the past with

:55:15.:55:19.

transition countries that estimates of how many will come have been very

:55:20.:55:25.

much out of the actual figure. Nobody knows what the figures will

:55:26.:55:29.

be in the future. We have not made any estimates. 29 million people is

:55:30.:55:36.

the total population of Romanian and Bulgarian in Europe. Do you except

:55:37.:55:46.

that created a climate where people are scared?

:55:47.:55:51.

It created a climate where we are talking about this in the government

:55:52.:56:03.

are talking about this. This is a very irresponsible way of

:56:04.:56:12.

doing politics. People vote for politicians because they know the

:56:13.:56:20.

platform they stand on. Do you accept that UKIP are right on

:56:21.:56:27.

the money with public opinion? But they are deliberately shifting

:56:28.:56:35.

public opinion with myths of fear. If you ask people concerned in these

:56:36.:56:41.

areas of whether they worry about migration in their own lives, they

:56:42.:56:47.

are not. There are disgraceful lies in my opinion such as those coming

:56:48.:56:54.

from the Daily Mail. We have to leave it there. Another

:56:55.:57:01.

political week has gone by. Here is a quick recapture.

:57:02.:57:11.

As an employment fell across the country, there was a big jobs boost

:57:12.:57:24.

for Wiltshire. The badger cull drew more criticism. . If I from Stroud

:57:25.:57:39.

and a form from Bristol said recognise had switched to services

:57:40.:57:45.

they provided at the bad press for other energy providers.

:57:46.:57:54.

We are still accelerating. And Bristol City Football Club

:57:55.:57:59.

finally abandoned plans for a new stadium.

:58:00.:58:15.

We are talking about wind turbines. They were going out of fashion but

:58:16.:58:22.

now they are back? I am very pleased with all these

:58:23.:58:27.

jobs. If you see a large company come in and setup wind turbines you

:58:28.:58:38.

will oppose them obscuring your view. We are supporting energy

:58:39.:58:47.

renewables. We are not in favour of unreliable

:58:48.:58:53.

renewables through wind and solar power. We must fill the hall in

:58:54.:59:03.

energy that is looming. It is predicted we will have blackouts

:59:04.:59:09.

from 2015 on words and this is because of the failure of government

:59:10.:59:16.

energy policy. We started with climate change and

:59:17.:59:22.

we do have good resources for solar power and wind power and it is an

:59:23.:59:29.

important growth opportunity for the South West and we should not allow

:59:30.:59:33.

backward looking politicians to be against that. We are completely

:59:34.:59:40.

opposed to nuclear and we are the only political party that now

:59:41.:59:56.

totally opposes it. They are the only political party

:59:57.:59:59.

left that believes that nuclear power is wrong. We are kidding

:00:00.:00:08.

ourselves if we think we can survive without it.

:00:09.:00:15.

And that is it for this week. Thank you to our guests. You can sign up

:00:16.:00:23.

for our new Twitter account. back to you.

:00:24.:00:42.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never far away from controversy, but this

:00:43.:00:45.

week he's been outdoing himself He was hit over the head with a placard

:00:46.:00:48.

by a protester in Kent, provoked outrage by saying women with

:00:49.:00:51.

children are worth less to city firms, and said the ban on owning

:00:52.:00:58.

handguns was 'crackers'. He also seemed less than sure of his party's

:00:59.:01:01.

own policies when I interviewed him on the Daily Politics. And the story

:01:02.:01:05.

that got everyone talking was the suggestion by a UKIP councillor that

:01:06.:01:10.

flooding is linked to gay marriage. We'll talk about all of that in a

:01:11.:01:13.

moment, but first, over to Nigel with the weather. Weather for all

:01:14.:01:22.

areas of the British Isles but definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land."

:01:23.:01:25.

You may have heard about a storm in a tea cup developed when you kip

:01:26.:01:32.

councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the floods on the gay marriage Bill The

:01:33.:01:38.

old party is focusing on the view of UKIP members like him, even though

:01:39.:01:43.

he had said a sell yuj of things before when a Tory councillor. How

:01:44.:01:50.

quickly things change depending on when the blouse. There are

:01:51.:01:58.

occasional barmy views by people of all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour

:01:59.:02:03.

councillor claimed of fathered a child with an extra terrorist ral,

:02:04.:02:09.

and said his real mother was a foot green alien. And in Wales a

:02:10.:02:17.

councillor thinking about heading off for the

:02:18.:02:25.

slopes, there were flurries of embarrassment for the Tories after

:02:26.:02:34.

Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing party in a resort.

:02:35.:02:39.

Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps on the gravy train, watch out for

:02:40.:02:45.

hot air. In Britain temperatures are rising

:02:46.:02:50.

ahead of the European elections in May. It could get stormy, so advise

:02:51.:02:57.

light aircraft. Watch out for outbreaks of common sense, and no

:02:58.:03:01.

chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back to you, Andrew, with the rest of the

:03:02.:03:06.

Sunday Politics. Nick, if it was any other party that

:03:07.:03:11.

had bon through the past week it would be in meltdown. And maybe it

:03:12.:03:16.

is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't. What do you think? That just shows,

:03:17.:03:21.

that great weather forecast, Prince Charles now has a rival to be an

:03:22.:03:27.

excellent weather forecaster, as does the Duchess of Cornwall. It

:03:28.:03:32.

shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr candidate to the European elections.

:03:33.:03:37.

Our invitation to the British people to kick the establishment. The

:03:38.:03:41.

establishment have spent five years that the European Parliament is a

:03:42.:03:45.

waste of time, so who are you going to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of

:03:46.:03:52.

person. What was important about your eadviceration of Nigel Farage

:03:53.:03:56.

on Daily Politics is that when it came to the substance, they

:03:57.:04:00.

flounder. But the point about that party is they may have the thinnest

:04:01.:04:03.

set of policies, but people know what they stand for more than any

:04:04.:04:10.

other parties - get out of Europe, a grammar school in every town. If any

:04:11.:04:16.

other leading politician called for an end to the ban on handguns, at a

:04:17.:04:21.

time when we've seen these appalling gun deaths in the United States now

:04:22.:04:24.

almost one every week in some terrible siege in a school. It would

:04:25.:04:30.

be a crisis. It seems to wash off him. He's got congenital

:04:31.:04:39.

foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into another wild nothing to do with why

:04:40.:04:44.

people might vote UKIP. I don't think people are desperate to have

:04:45.:04:48.

handgun licences back in this country. It is such an unusual

:04:49.:04:54.

phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying

:04:55.:05:01.

it, we've seen the damage done to the Lib Dems on a much more serious

:05:02.:05:06.

manner, we would say this is terminal. But maybe it adds to this

:05:07.:05:10.

image that we are not like the other parties. I think that is it. We keep

:05:11.:05:16.

waiting for these scandals and embarrassments to do damage to

:05:17.:05:21.

UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not working. It is ultimately because if

:05:22.:05:27.

you are an antiestablishment party, if you are an anti-system party the

:05:28.:05:33.

rules of the game which apply to the establishment parties don't apply to

:05:34.:05:38.

you. And the more ramshackle and embarrassing you are, the more

:05:39.:05:42.

authentic you seem. It what be take something for them not to finish

:05:43.:05:49.

second in May. Do they spend the following 12 months sinking in the

:05:50.:05:53.

poll snoos And George Osborne's strategy is fame everything as

:05:54.:05:57.

Labour versus the Conservatives The electorate will have their fun in

:05:58.:06:01.

May. Maybe the Tories will be beat into third place but in thejection

:06:02.:06:07.

is that -- but in the general election it is Labour versus the

:06:08.:06:15.

Tories. The Conservative Party will run around, 46 letters to Graham

:06:16.:06:19.

Brady, a leadership contest. That sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules

:06:20.:06:24.

well in the European elections, could cause big trouble for Mr

:06:25.:06:28.

Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it? The big point about this, David

:06:29.:06:35.

Cameron said this is not a political party but a pressure group. This is

:06:36.:06:40.

the way to look at UKIP, and the way it is used by people in the right of

:06:41.:06:46.

the party, who say we have to do this. I like the policy of painting

:06:47.:06:53.

the trains in their old liveries. It would be like my old train set. I

:06:54.:07:04.

like the bigger passports. Pre-GNER... And London and Midland.

:07:05.:07:14.

I used to be a train spotter. Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the

:07:15.:07:17.

phone. Good to know you are watching but pity you are not here. He wanted

:07:18.:07:23.

to clarify he had constituency commitments to prevent him coming on

:07:24.:07:28.

the show to talk about becoming leader of the party, but he didn't

:07:29.:07:31.

dispute anything we said on the show.

:07:32.:07:34.

Yesterday, Ed Balls said that housing investment will be a central

:07:35.:07:37.

priority for the next Labour Government. It's a big issue, as the

:07:38.:07:41.

lack of new homes pushes up the the price of owning or renting. Well,

:07:42.:07:43.

tomorrow the Tories will announce what they say is the most ambitious

:07:44.:07:46.

programme of affordable housebuilding for 20 years. The

:07:47.:07:54.

Government sees housing as a really important part of the economy.

:07:55.:08:00.

That's why we are announcing a 23 billion package for 165,000 new

:08:01.:08:05.

affordable homes. So individual builders, councils, housing

:08:06.:08:09.

associations can bid for that money. Phase one, which we are halfway

:08:10.:08:14.

through at the moment, we've built 170,000 houses. 99,000 already

:08:15.:08:18.

coming out of the ground, so we ve made real progress on that. So,

:08:19.:08:26.

165,000 new, affordable homes. It is a lot. Let me add three more words.

:08:27.:08:31.

Over three years. It is not such a lot. It is not, and Labour's

:08:32.:08:35.

commitment is 200,000 homes a year and even that isn't enough. The

:08:36.:08:40.

problem here is that the vest interest is with people who already

:08:41.:08:45.

have homes. They have a vote in the system through the planning

:08:46.:08:48.

regulations. In London there is a gap in the hedge through Richmond

:08:49.:08:52.

Park through which you should be able to see St Paul's Cathedral

:08:53.:08:58.

That's why you cannot build homes where you want them. I don't think

:08:59.:09:02.

we want to build homes over Richmond Park. He wasn't saying that. That's

:09:03.:09:10.

dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine. You've got to deal with supply,

:09:11.:09:14.

which is why Labour is talking about 200,000 a year, and what George

:09:15.:09:20.

Osborne has done with supply is helping with demand. We know the

:09:21.:09:24.

Help to Buy Scheme is pretty dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen

:09:25.:09:31.

to put the break on that. If you are to deal with supply, you have to do

:09:32.:09:36.

radical things. Chris Huhne talked about on brownfield sites you can

:09:37.:09:40.

tax people who are holding the land as if the development has taken

:09:41.:09:44.

place. Then if you are really going to deal with it you have to talk

:09:45.:09:48.

about the greenfield sites, and you have to deal with the garden cities

:09:49.:09:52.

argument, which is too much for the Tories. All the parties seem to

:09:53.:09:56.

agree building new houses is a political winner. I hope that they

:09:57.:10:00.

are right. I'm not sure they are. The housing market is the example of

:10:01.:10:06.

what economists call the insider in-outsider problem. People who are

:10:07.:10:11.

already homeowners have no rational incentive to vote for more housing

:10:12.:10:17.

stock. Even if you leave aside the Conservative arable objections, if

:10:18.:10:20.

you are a homeowner there is an interest to stick with the planning

:10:21.:10:24.

promise that we have. So then we are stuck between a rock and a hard

:10:25.:10:28.

place. Not only are we growing at the moment but our population is

:10:29.:10:34.

growing. I've seen projects that in quite quickly we will overtake

:10:35.:10:38.

Germany and become the largest populated country in Europe. If

:10:39.:10:41.

that's the case we've got to build homes. We have. If you look at Tower

:10:42.:10:47.

Hamlets in London, the population is r ging higher than the number of

:10:48.:10:52.

dwelling. Classically the theory's been young people are most affected

:10:53.:10:57.

by this and they don't vote much. But when their parents have young

:10:58.:11:03.

Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's an electoral issue. That's why the

:11:04.:11:08.

garden cities project is interesting, because they finance

:11:09.:11:12.

themselves. You zone it for development, it is worth ?2 million

:11:13.:11:17.

an acre and then you can build on it. But who is going to want the

:11:18.:11:23.

greenfield sites gone. And how quickly can we build garden cities

:11:24.:11:29.

today? Some were started before the Town and Country Planning Act. I've

:11:30.:11:34.

read stats about the way Chinese and Japanese are building houses and

:11:35.:11:38.

they were slower than that. Here's a thought, sticking on the housing

:11:39.:11:42.

theme. Ed Miliband came up with the energy freeze, a populist

:11:43.:11:46.

interventionist move. Then the use it or lose it to land developers.

:11:47.:11:52.

Then breaking up the banks. Now the 50p tax rate. How much would you put

:11:53.:11:57.

on Labour coming up for rent controls? That's already a big

:11:58.:12:02.

split. They are split already on it. They have. In London it is a popular

:12:03.:12:06.

policy. It might not play well in the rest of the country. I would say

:12:07.:12:11.

50-50 on that. I think Labour supporting rent controls like the

:12:12.:12:14.

Tories having a go at welfare. The policy may be individually popular

:12:15.:12:19.

but it sends an impression about the party which might be less attract

:12:20.:12:23.

active. It confirms underlying suspicions that vote these guys into

:12:24.:12:27.

power and suddenly they are tampering with the private economy.

:12:28.:12:32.

The memories of the '70s when Governments tried and failed to do

:12:33.:12:35.

that. It is riskier than a superficial reading of the polls

:12:36.:12:40.

would suggest. One to watch? I think they are looking at it. That was the

:12:41.:12:45.

key message of the Ed Balls speech on housing, is looking at supply and

:12:46.:12:50.

how you get to that 200,000 figure a year, which is substantially more

:12:51.:12:54.

than what Kris Hopkins is talking about. What we didn't get to talk

:12:55.:12:59.

about, remember we had Michael Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of

:13:00.:13:03.

Schools. We all consumed was Mr Gove's man, the Education

:13:04.:13:07.

Secretary's man. Now according to the Sunday Times he is spitting

:13:08.:13:11.

blood about the way Mr Gove and his office are speaking about him behind

:13:12.:13:15.

the scenes. We've checked the quotes and he stands by them, so I think

:13:16.:13:19.

we'll have to have the head of Ofsted back on the programme. If you

:13:20.:13:23.

are watching, we're here. All that to the Lib Dems who didn't come on

:13:24.:13:27.

today. That's all for today. Thanks to all

:13:28.:13:30.

my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two,

:13:31.:13:34.

and I'll be here again next week. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the

:13:35.:13:35.

Sunday Politics. Britain, with 120,000 soldiers

:13:36.:14:13.

is now at war with Germany This would be the first

:14:14.:14:22.

truly modern war. and resolve of entire populations

:14:23.:14:32.

against each other.

:14:33.:14:36.

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