19/01/2014 Sunday Politics West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says

Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask

senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.

What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the

views of a Sunday Politics focus group. A

And can governments ever legislate against violent extremism? Muslim,

Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's plunge from the highboard from who

else but the Minister for Portsmouth.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

business: and in London, Boris Johnson has pledged to recruit more

volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting

throughout the programme. First this morning, Nick Clegg is

considering a fresh investigation into the behaviour of the party s

former chief executive, Lord Rennard. Last week, a lawyer

appointed by the party decided that no action could be taken against

him, but that women who had accused the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate

behaviour "were broadly credible". More than 100 party activists are

demanding an apology. Chris Rennard say he's nothing to apologise for

and the party whip must be returned to him. Helen, this is not going

away. It is turning into a crisis for the Lib Dems? They have only got

seven female MPs. There is no female Cabinet Minister. There is a

reasonable chance that after the next election there might in no

female Liberal Democrat MPs at all. A scandal like this will not

encourage women into the party. Have they made a complete mess of it You

feel for Nick Clegg, because he launched an utterly rigorous

process. He called in a QC. The QC looked at it and decided that the

evidence did not meet the burden of proof in a criminal trial. But

clearly he felt that the evidence from these women was very credible

and serious. He said it was broadly credible. Clearly it was serious.

Rennard is being advised by Lord Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat

peer, who is giving purely legal advice. He is saying it has not

reached that edge-mac, so do not apologise. This is a political

issue, so the agony continues. Nick Clegg was hoping to keep the party

whip withdrawn. But they did not launch an enquiry, the Webster

enquired it was not an enquiry, it was a legal opinion. You're right,

it was an internal opinion. The Lib Dems distinguished themselves from

the other two parties not with policy, but with ethics. They

presented themselves as being cleaner, and in possession of more

Robert Jay than Labour and the Conservatives. That will be harder

to do now. -- more probity. There are a Lib Dem peers that are more

relaxed about taking him back and letting him pick up the party whip.

That is the problem. There is a generational issue. The older Lib

Dems in the House of Lords, the kind of thing, he did not do anything

that wrong. The younger activists and those outside the House of

Lords, they think it is a pollen. Yes, there is definitely a sort of

what you are complaining about sort of thing. That is symptomatic of a

cultural difference. The report last year found that they tried to manage

the allegations. They did not do what any company would do if there

was an allegation of sexual harassment. If there had not in the

by-election in Eastleigh, this story may not have got the attention it

did. Channel four news are the one that really drove this. Without

their reporting, this might not have come out. It is not going to go

away, because the issue of whether he gets the party whip back will

come week. -- will come up this week.

So it's not been a great week for the Liberal Democrats and none of

this will help public perceptions of a party already struggling in the

polls. In a moment, I'll be talking to the second most senior Liberal

Democrat in the land, Danny Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went

to Glasgow to find out what voters there made of the party.

Let's put the Lib Dems under the microscope in Glasgow. We have

recruited some Glaswegians who have voted for them, and some who have

not. Hello, John. Let's get started. I will be watching them through the

one-way mirror, along with the former Liberal Democrat MP John

Barrett. Let's get to the heart of the matter straightaway. If the Lib

Dems were a biscuit, what would they be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the

outside but soft in the middle. They give in. There is no strength of

character there. They just give in to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit

bland and boring. Melts and crumbles under any sort of heat and pressure.

Morrison's own brand of biscuit not top of the range like Marks

Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose. A custard cream, sandwiched between

David Cameron and the Tories. I think they were concerned that they

had one exterior, but something else was really inside. They did not find

it too definitive, too clear, too concise, too tasty, too appealing.

Which means? It is a worry. If that is their gut reaction, literally,

let's find out what is behind it. The context of them being stuck

between a rock and a hard place for them as a party, I feel slightly

sorry for them. I think people who voted for them will think they are

victims as well, being sold down the river by going to the coalition I

think the ones, particularly student fees, that was an important one to a

lot of people. People felt cheated. I agree. Just going back on that, so

publicly and openly, it makes you think, well, what do they stand for?

It is trust. Harsh. But our group is feeling quite upbeat about the state

of the economy. What have the Lib Dems contributed to that? I am not

quite sure. It is George Osborne, a Conservative, who is the Chancellor,

so it is mostly down to him. The Liberal Democrats are mostly on

their coat tails, if you know what I mean. Have the Lib Dems done

anything, anyone? I think the Liberal Democrats were responsible

for increasing the tax allowance, ?10,000 for next year. I think they

have played a major role in that. Yes. I am glad somebody noticed

that. We will have helped everyone who is receiving a salary, and it is

interesting that nobody has mentioned that. Now, let's talk

about personalities. Everyone knows him, but what about say, this guy?

Alexander. Danny, they got it straightaway. I actually quite like

him. I think he talks very clearly and it is easy to understand what he

says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy is popular as well. He is very

charismatic and it is through him that I voted Liberal the last few

times. But who is this? I recognise him but I cannot tell you his name.

That is the party's leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the

party's role in the upcoming referendum on independence draws a

blank as well. It does not feel like they have featured, it is SNP and

Labour and Conservative. They are last in a four horse race. We have

been talking about the biggest issue in Scottish politics, independence

and the referendum and the Lib Dems are nowhere. They are not mentioned

and they seem to think it is all about Labour and the SNP. The Lib

Dems are part of the Better Together campaign and we are being drowned

out among that. Looking to the future, what messages do voters have

for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do not go back on your policies or your

word. Be strong and decisive. If you will pardon the expression, man up.

DIY, do it yourself. Do not award bankers and other people for

failure. Stand up. Be your own person, party. If that focus group

represented the whole country, what would the result for the Lib Dems be

at 2015 in the election? If they get the message across between now and

then, the result could be OK. If they do not get the message across,

the result could be disaster. Maybe they would do a lot better on their

own. I do not think you are seeing the true Lib Dems because they are

in the coalition. They maybe deserve another chance. Crucially for the

Lib Dems, that means there is some hope, but there is also plenty of

anger, some disappoint, and a bit of bafflement as well.

And watching that with me, senior Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary

to the Treasury Danny Alexander Welcome to the programme. One of the

things that comes through from the focus group is that if there is any

credit around for the economic recovery, it is the Tories that are

getting it, and you are not? What can you do about that? The first

thing to say is that the economy would not be recovering if it was

not for the Liberal Democrats. If it was not for our decision right

beginning in 2010 to form a strong, stable coalition government that to

deal with the problems, we would still be in the mess that Labour

left us with. Why are you not getting the credit? That was one

focus group. It was interesting to hear opinions. We have to work very

hard to get across the message that the economy would not be recovering

without the Liberal Democrats. People would not be seeing the

largest income tax cuts for a generation without the Liberal

Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold that one of the people referred to

is coming into peoples pay packets this year. Lots of people recognise

that. There was the one person in the focus groups. This is your

measure of success, raising the people at which people pay income

tax. But most of the voters do not even give you credit for that. The

role that we haven't British politics as a party, is that we are

the only party that can be trusted to deliver a fair society and a

strong economy. People know they cannot trust the Labour Party. We

saw it again from Ed Miliband this morning. You cannot trust the Labour

Party with the nation's finances. It may well be your policy, the income

tax threshold, but it is the Tories that are getting the credit? I do

not think that is true. I have spent lots of time meeting photos and lots

of people recognise that if it was not for the Liberal Democrats,

people would not be seeing those tax cuts. We are helping disadvantaged

children in schools. It is right that we have to work very hard

between now and polling day to do several things, to make sure that we

secure the recovery, there can be no complacency. The economic recovery

is in its early stages and we need to make sure it is sustainable. We

need to make sure the benefits of the recovery are shared out people

who have made sacrifices, people on low pay, people who have seen their

savings are eroded. The Tories have now hijacked another Lib Dem

policy, another big hike in the minimum wage. You spoke about the

need to make sure that people on low pay benefit from the recovery, a big

hike in the minimum wage. Did the Chancellor consulting on this? We

have been talking about it for some time. Vince Cable asked the low pay

commission for advice on this. Why did Vince Cable not make this

announcement, why was it the Chancellor? Let me say a few other

things about this. If we are going to secure the recovery, this year we

have to make sure that businesses start investing. We have got to get

Roddick typically rising. An increase in the minimum wage is

something that needs to follow that. We will not do it unless the low pay

commission adviser as it is important for the economy at this

stage. Did you know the Chancellor was coming out with that statement?

I did not know he was going to say something on that particular day. We

have worked together on it in the tragedy to see what the economic

impact would be, and to emphasise that it is the commission, which has

credibility with business, trade unions and government. It must not

be a politically motivated increase. So you did not know, and Vince

Cable, and it is properly a matter for him as the Business Secretary,

he did not make the announcement? I don't think that's right. I don t

clear every word I say with him I don't expect him to do the same to

me. The Lib Dems have told us before it was the Treasury that was

blocking this from happening. We were going to ask the low pay

commission to advise us on bringing the minimum wage back up. During the

financial crisis, wages have been lower-than-expected but it's also

right, we shouldn't act in a hasty way, we should listen to what the

commission has to say, and if they don't recommend an increase we have

to make sure economic conditions are there to get it right. Not only are

the Tories getting credit for that, our Scottish voters group showed

that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees and

that was a broken promise that didn't even apply to the people in

Scotland, where there are no tuition fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear

about the issues that that brought up. If you look at our manifesto,

the University of London said we delivered about 70% of our policies

in the manifesto. They haven't forgiven you for the big one. The

big promise we made was to cut income tax the millions of people.

That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of

working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our

economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make

sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum

wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit

is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the

confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 1

months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look

largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus

group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I

have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we

are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,

it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.

Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than

benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to

have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right

thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib

Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the

way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests

of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,

stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in

meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 20 5

election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a

very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the

economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the

problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the

biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is

either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative

government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want

us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a

disaster to investment in this country. You announced this week

that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it would be the British Treasury

that would guarantee all British government debt. There wouldn't be a

negotiation, but the backstop would be that even if they didn't take

anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the

markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few

questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still

borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people

were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious

concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond

market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.

That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather

than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a

bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to

allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in

the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because

Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it

was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus

group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this

aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the

bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at

RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached

by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach

from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in

government, massive reductions. . I'm not asking you about that, I'm

asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to

sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has

38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what

possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right

to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is

mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they

might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be

sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you

said, but also the fact that it is a bank that has benefited from the

taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS has to focus more on domestic

retail. Let me turn to Chris Rennard, ten women have accused him

of sexual harassment. He denies every case. Who do you believe? We

have been through a process on this as a party. A report has been issued

on this. I agree with Alistair Webster on this, he has made clear

that while he cannot prove what happened to a criminal standard

that there is clear there has been considerable distress and harm

caused. I agree with him about that and that's why it is necessary for

Chris Rennard to apologise as he has been asked to do. If he refuses to

apologise, should he be denied the Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't

think he should be readmitted to the Liberal Democrat group in the House

of Lords until such time as the disciplinary process, including the

apology, has been done properly We are very democratic party, it is a

matter for our group in the House of Lords in due course to make that

judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of complaints from party members about

the fact no apology has been made. The appropriate committee would need

to look at that and decide what action needs to be taken because

these are very serious matters. We as a party have learned a lot, taken

a long, hard look at ourselves, to change the way we work. The apology

does need to be made. We are told that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of

the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, we are told he has shaken

hands with Chris Rennard and welcomed him back. That decision has

not been taken yet. I think Lord Newby would share my view on this.

Have you shaken his hand and welcomed him back? No, I haven't.

Does Nick Clegg have the power to deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am

making it clear that a lack of apology is totally unacceptable and

therefore we have to take steps if that is not forthcoming. His view

and my view is that Lord Rennard should not be readmitted to the

House of Lords if that is not forthcoming. In our party, our group

in the House of Lords has two in the end take a view for itself. And they

can override Nick Clegg's view? I hope that when they look at this...

Do they have the power to override Nick Clegg? They have the power to

decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple

human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is

totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --

divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total

nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we

have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment

on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid

down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which

asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty

of confidentiality and responsibility under the data

protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in

a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why

should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven

allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not

been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to

continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the

recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.

Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris

Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits He

says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party

because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those

rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.

The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of

which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found

distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't

think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it

both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a

proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened at the

time and we have learned a lot from this is a party, and the most

important thing now is that Chris Rennard apologises. You have made

that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on

the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We

just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank

you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.

Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to

run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the

revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies

were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital

communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how

worried should we be about their clandestine activity?

In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that

America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called

Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from

around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This

week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,

including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions

of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela

Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused

to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign

Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks

and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of

the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in

on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to

go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel

Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major

changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was

up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of

thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that

is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,

has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is

up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a

call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people

can see what the evidence is. Obviously some of the information

will have to be classified, but on the committee, there is a real

commitment to say, there is a big debate going on, let's see if the

system is as Rob asked as we can make it. The big question is

oversight and the call for evidence that the committee has issued is not

mention oversight. It is ten years since the Foreign Affairs Committee

said that the committee should be a fully elected committee chosen by

Parliament and not the Prime Minister. It has changed, actually.

The Prime Minister nominates people and the house gets to him -- gets to

approve. In America, they have a separation of power, the president

does not nominate Kennedy. Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an

establishment lackey? I do not think so. Most of the people on the

committee have some experience of intelligence and these issues. In

this country, we have robust scrutiny, compared to some of her

European neighbours. We have Parliamentary scrutiny, the

interception commissioners, and ministers have to sign the warrants.

But there may be room for improvement, which is why we are

having the enquiry. Do not forget, President Obama said that the agency

should not have the ability to collect data, he wanted to put more

safeguards in. That is essential for the work of the agencies. If you

cannot see the data, you cannot take the connections and see the

patterns. Some people never talk about the threat from terrorism it

is all about travesty. There are several thousand people in this

country, as we are talking, who are actively planning to do a country

harm. When this debate started in the US, the NSA head stood up and

said there are 54 plots that have been detected by this capability

that has detected and that in bulk. Now the head of the NSA has admitted

that the number is actually zero. It is not the intelligence committee in

the US that did the work to reduce that number, it was a Judiciary

Committee. The fact that we have two different bodies doing this in this

country, it means that you do not get the correct view. How can people

have confidence in a body when if you go around Europe, for example,

or the world, we are not at the end not requiring judges to not sign

warrants? I do not accept that the committee failed on that range of

issues. You look at the reports on 7/7. Two reports by the committee

get to the heart of it. If you look at that terrorist attack on our

country, people will say, why did you not have them on the radar? The

agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be

subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know about

Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular basis and I know about the

capabilities that we have got. Some of the names of these programmes, we

would not necessarily know. But did you know that GCHQ had the

capability to use Dishfire, or to get Dishfire material from the NSA?

I knew and my committee knew that we had the capability to collect data,

and these days, people do not write letters, they do not use landline

telephones, they use the Internet and text in, so it is important that

the agencies are able to keep up with that take the logical change.

What should happen? The proper legal framework should include, if a

company is cooperating, as Google and Facebook do, it should be

illegal for GCHQ to hack into them. In the US, Lundberg estimate that

this has driven a 35mm and hole in the US economy because people do not

trust but there are systems are secure. We need to know that GCHQ

are not trying to use a different door into the system, whether by

hacking or foreign intelligence We need judicial oversight with judges

and not politicians signing off The final 30 seconds to you. As a result

of the changes in the Justice and Security act, the committee is

accountable to Parliament and not the Prime Minister. Those changes

are taking place, and I am up for the debate if we need more change or

not. But I want British agencies to have more power to protect the

people in this country. Thank you to both of you. It's coming up to

11:40. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20

minutes, we'll get the verdict of the Minister for Portsmouth on that

dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch! The government prides itself on

localism, so we'll be asking if councillors really have any choice

to do anything but freeze their rates. Today, we'll be talking

politics with both sides of the coalition. Neil Carmichael is a Tory

MP for Stroud. And we have a Lib Dem MP from Bath as well. Let's start by

talking about the contentious badger cull in the West. We discovered

costs would just five times more than expected and the government was

forced to admit it may have overstated the number of herds with

TB due to a computer glitch. This is a farce, isn't it? Well, we know how

many cattle have been slaughtered because of TB. We also know how many

farmers across my area at least have then back I have been punished for

it. The number of slaughterings that have taken place have been

considerable. What we have to do is get this right for the badgers as

well. Don Foster, it seems to be incompetence. We've learnt a great

deal from these trials. We have a very serious problem. Sadly, we

haven't got a vaccine and were told we won't have one for quite some

time to come. That is why we had these trials. I think the government

now is to come forward to Parliament to be very clear about what has

happened with the trials and then to bring to Parliament proposals for

what we do next. It is not a foregone conclusion we will see a

expansion of the current programme until we've got right some of the

things that you rightly say we clearly need to sort out. Raise

council tax if you dare. That is the tough message from Eric Pickles On

a visit to the West Country on Thursday he put the boot into one

Conservative run council and gave a strong hint he will clamp down

harder than ever on those who refuse to freeze the tax.

He is the man they love to hate A politician who talks tough to

councils. Eric Pickles was in Somerset and Butcher on Thursday. He

toured council officers hearing how they found new ways to save money.

Here, council tax laws back back pack `` council taxes will not rise.

Somehow it seems as if he wants to get his own back on us. Actually, we

are the most efficient deliveries of public services. We are taking by

far the biggest hit in the austerity gut. That did not go down too well

with the minister. It is convenient for people to hide behind the cap.

The cap is gone. They have to make a decision. I don't think it shows

much leadership to put an increased slightly below the cap. Alaska men

used to cap the amount council tax increased will stop back at the last

government this year, it could be 1.5%. That could be a problem for

police forces. On Wednesday, Wilts's Police and Crime

Commissioner set out the reasons why. Wilts is one of the third most

efficient forces in the country as far as spending goes. Our spending

on local policing is lower than the average, so there is no reason why

we shouldn't come back up to where we are. That is what people want.

The final decision will be taken next month. By then, a 2% rise could

be enough to prompt a referendum, judging by the Minister's response.

They have to take the electorate into their confidence. I'm quite

blind to politics. I will treat conservatives, labour, the Lib Dems,

independence, exactly the same way. But his power over our tax bills

does have some limits. Many parish council is also rising taxes. The

main reason? Cuts in government central funding have been passed

down the line. The cuts will keep coming. A new report by experts ones

that some are approaching a tipping point, especially in the South West.

It could mean a local authority not being able to set a balanced budget,

it could mean little failures in several services which mount up to

critical levels, if you like. It could be the inability to deliver

statutory services, which could be catastrophic. Eric Pickles will not

be swayed. The Tory big hit ended his visit in Chippenham, helping to

launch a campaign to cut parking charges levied by his fellow

conservatives on the council. Tony Lake is one of the most the

zebras `` vociferous protesters We don't disagree with the spending

cuts, we understand the need to get the spending deficit under control.

I think a lot of good things come out from them. Cut to the chase

What is your complaint? Are cut `` our complaint is they are now

talking about late February go before we even know what the cap is.

So you want to know if the cap is 2% and then you will raise your tax by

1.9%? Not at all. We have not done that in the past. We haven't decided

what were going to do. We have a spending gap left on a budget of

about 1.5 million. We've already identified the banks `` the best

part of 17% of that. You used to work in the love `` the local

government and then you were a minister. Why is local government

taking the hit these days? The local government spends about ?120 billion

a year, a quarter of all government spending. So when our cuts across

all areas, it's not surprising local government has taken a hit as well.

The cuts mean spending power will be be juiced on average by 2.9%. It's a

1.8% cut, a relatively small cut to find, for Tony. Our calculation on

the spending gap, the lack of government funding, it's more like

9%. This isn't about reserves. That is nonsense. We get this from Eric

every few weeks saying the council have massive reserves. We have two

types of reserves. Earmarked reserves which we cannot use and a

small amount of revenue non`earmarked which any sensibly run

business would have in case it gets hit. The one thing I will accept is

it is very difficult for local government. But what we've seen in

recent years is local govern working much more efficiently and

effectively, working with each other, combining back office space

and so on, getting more of the council tax they are entitled to.

That pressure has made a real difference. Polls show that

confidence in public government has gone up the last years. But there is

money in reserves, there is more that they could get from council

tax. Do you think local governments should do anything other than freeze

the council tax? I think freezing it is the right thing to do because at

the end of the day we need to make it easier for people to live their

lives. The cost of living is all part of this. And it is critical to

encourage councils to become even more efficient at delivering

services. But you are making the council take the cuts and the blame

on Westminster does not make the cuts up there. Yes, we do. There are

certain areas we have not cut at all, like the NHS. Let's get back to

the referendum. As I understand it, councillors want to pick up the rate

by a certain amount that means they have two have a referendum. Why have

the parliament not told them what the cap will be? We are consulting

on this. Eric Pickles made clear that the announcement will be made

in the very near future. Most councils are already in a position

where they've done most of the copulation. They can do most of the

work and as Tony said there is a small bet that they're trying to

sort out. I understand the uncertainty, but we're getting on as

quickly as possible. On the question of the freeze band, let's take an

example. Our band D is about ?1 00. In another council, it is ?1300

That is because you've frozen the rate in the past when you didn't

have too. Yes, we have deliberately kept it down. But a 1% freeze grant

to that counsel you as the ?130 Bandy puts them even further away.

Slightly difficult to do the maths on a Sunday morning, but thank you

for coming in. Now, it might shock you to learn

that one of our studio guests spends his working week with being members

of his party. But we're told Don Foster never inflict any actual

pain. He is a government whip and years in charge of encouraging MPs

to toe the party line. It may not look like the wild West,

but listen carefully and you may hear the distant crack of a whip

around Westminster. It could be the parliamentary whips at work, getting

backbenchers into line. Three of them now come from the west, and

this is their story. Among those keeping the conservative cowboys in

order, our assistant whips Claire and John. The high Sheriff of Lib

Dem discipline and government Deputy Chief Whip is now Don Foster. From

the whips office, you must make sure his MPs turn up to vote and vote the

way his party wants. Gentle persuasion is the preferred

technique, but he admits his is a business of carrot and stick. We

could stop people being on the whip, which means you don't get any

of the information to sort your life out. We could make things difficult

in terms of the sort of office accommodation that you want and

possibly do nasty things in terms of cutting off party funding if

anything is going to your constituency. But the Lib Dems are

not flush with dosh so that is unlikely. It is the power of

persuasion. Each whip has a flock of around two dozen MPs. If it becomes

clear one of your sheep might be tempted to stray, you might bring

them to a posh restaurant like this one to administer some gentle but

well lubricated arm`twisting. I think I will have the lamb. I use

suggesting MPs can be persuaded by such fripperies? Are you denying

that perks don't come into it? MPs are just as fallible as anyone

else. So, yes, it can make a difference to some people, and

others not. At the end of the day, people are trying to stick up for

the local patch. That is what gets them out of bed in the morning and

it is the thing which will get them re`elected or not. That is a

powerful motivator. That is the dilemma for all MPs, the crunch

vote. To stay with the party on his ticket they were elected, all

rebel, and face the consequences. When I was saying I'm afraid I'm

going to rebel on Lords reform, it was suggested to me that I would

lose my big society ambassador role. And my response was, well, I'm

afraid I believe in it. You can t stop me believing in community

spirit, so do what you want with the titles. Television dramas like house

of cards gave whips a bad portrayal as masters of the dark arts. That

reputation has been difficult to shake, especially among those who

cannot see why that country has to pay for what is essentially a

political office. The stereotype is actually accurate. They know all the

secrets of the MPs. The whips have something called a dirt book with

all the information about whether an MP has a love life, a gambling

habit, drinks too much, maybe is overdrawn and therefore needs a bit

of extra money, so maybe wants to get onto a certain select committee.

All these things come into play and are all part of the leveraged, the

machinery, of influence and pressure that is brought to bear. If you

believe the whips in this place the business of whipping is no longer

than nasty, bullying backbiting processing might have been. They

insist that they need the law enforcers to whip the parties into

some sort of meaningful shape remains as acute as ever, but the

many outside these walls, the practice of whipping remains one of

the Sadie at `` shakiest in the saloon bar of British politics.

Joining us is Dawn Parry who used to be a conservative and stood in

Newport at the last election in Wales. Now, she says she is fed up

of party politics and will run as an independent in Bristol West last

time. What is wrong with being mated to tether party line? `` being made

to toe the party line? Instead of representing the views of those

individuals who perhaps elected you to parliament, you are forced into a

situation whereby you have to vote with the party and toe the line The

problem of the Dorna is if she does get elected as an independent, she

will realise she is a large number of decisions to make every single

day and there will not be the opportunity to go back and consult

your electorate on all of those issues. Therefore what happens in

political parties ` unsure it's the same as in the Conservatives ` we

get together and discuss the issues and agree collectively what we think

the line should be. By having a clear line from a political party,

the government then know what sort of things we care about and the

values we have. Is it right that Charlotte should have been

threatened with losing her job as a big society spokesperson? I'm not

going to comment on the techniques used by other whips. Let me make it

clear. The days of thumb screws are long gone, quite rightly. Parliament

now decides who will be members of select committees and who will chair

them, what the debates will be. So a lot of those tools have disappeared

and we have to do it by getting everyone together and getting those

policies right in the first place. You gladly rebelled at all, have

you? Well, I tend to agree with the overall agenda of the government. I

think the coalition is doing the right things, getting the deficit

down and having a long`term plan to solve the problems we were left with

by the last Labour government. And also there are lots of ways you can

influence the government. For instance, writing reports,

contributing to select committees. I would like to come back on something

that Don said which was about how important it is collectively that

elected members vote a certain way. Let's be honest. When a bill comes

forward and when people have to come up with a yes or no, surely 650

intelligent individuals who then elected by the people can make their

own decisions. People vote for the party, not the candidate. They vote

for Mr Cameron or Mr Gleick, they don't really vote for the Lib Dem

candidate. Well, let's talk about the people then. Because in the old

days people certainly did. There was a bat social difference. But this is

a television age now. Yes, but the way people move forward and how they

want to vote has changed enormously to the point where now a very small

number of people vote in elections and we have governments in power

would just a quarter of the populace. We have to leave it there.

Is it worth an extra ?41,000 a year, that job? I don't get anything like

that. I look forward to receiving my pager. I took a pay cheque from

being government minister to becoming a government Chief Whip.

You get ?41,000 more than a backbencher. I categorically do not

even get half that amount extra If you can tell me where the money is,

I look forward to receiving it and I will give it to a good cause.

41,000? ! Well, we'll check it. Now, it's been another busy week. Here's

a brief reminder 60 seconds. The Mayor of Bristol flushed away

his plans to close all but one of the city 's toilets. George Ferguson

said a rosier financial outlook in the toilets could stay. In bat,

parents and children demonstrated ever proposed cuts to children's

centres. Ruling Lib Dems insist no centres

will be closed but some may be handed over to other organisations

to run. Somerset paid its respect to a

former MP who died aged 90. He served at the battle and was awarded

a military Cross for his role as a tank commander.

The EU awarded West Country beef and Lamb protected status. The

recognition means our meat now ranks alongside other protected food like

Stilton cheese and Cornish pasties. And a Somerset MPs sent tongues

wagging again. He dismissed spending a quarter of

?1 million on portrait of politicians as mere chicken feed.

Do you think taxpayers should really be asked to pay for portrait of the

political classes? I've decided to save you a little bit and I've come

up with these. Perfect. I've got more hair than I expected. A serious

point. In times of austerity is it really wise to be paying for these

paintings? The sums of these money, 2000 up to 10,000, that is not

chicken feed by anybody's standards. But I do think it is right that we

have a record over the years of what happens. I do agree. The old part of

parliament is full of Victorian politicians and I think we should

have a reflection of the people in there now. Will the BBC donor those

to Parliament so that we save money? You can have them. Now thought, that

is it. You can keep up to speed with this programme on Twitter. For now,

back to London. houses being built by the mayor

Andrew, back to you. Welcome back. Now she made quite a splash last

night. I am talking, of course, of the Portsmouth North MP, Penny

Mordaunt. If you missed her first appearance in ITV's celebrity diving

competition show, here she is in action.

APPLAUSE Here is a lady who is more used to

campaigning for votes than diving for them. She created far too much

rotation. Hard work has gone into the start of this dive to try and

control it. That looked painful Now the Portsmouth North MP got voted

off the show last night but what about the verdict that really

matters? The newly appointed Minister for Portsmouth, Michael

Fallon, is here. Welcome to the programme. I would give her ten out

of ten for bravery. I was cheering her on. She was doing this for a

local charity, raising money for the local swimming pool. She was a good

sport. As Minister for Portsmouth, can we expect to see you in your

swimming trunks for the next series? I do not think I have the

spare time at the moment. But there is a big challenge in Portsmouth.

Penny Mordaunt and the other local MPs there have been remorseless in

asking ministers to help the city. They are losing jobs. There is a

goblin Trinity -- there is a big opportunity to create jobs. Should

she have been on a celebrity television show of their role these

problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising

money for a good cause. I do not think we should eat two sniffy about

it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your

programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare

time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for

Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we

going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury

does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth

has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in

a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There

are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My

job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure

that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more

broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal

seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats

everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince

Cable and I have been working together for the issues that

Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have

the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is

coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have

been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers

for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is

properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this

challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul

faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay

you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC

covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.

She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do

this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for

Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not

have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we

have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said no?

Does this mean that Portsmouth is more deprived economic late than the

north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.

The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew Marr programme this

morning and he outlined plans under a Labour government for an annual

competition audit. Here is what he had to say. The next Labour

government will have an annual competition at it, not just done by

the regulatory body. Alongside them will be the citizens advice bureau,

setting the agenda for the future, setting the agenda for how we can

ensure that competition will benefit consumers and businesses. I want to

see Labour going into the next election as the party of

competition, the party of the consumer, the party of hard-pressed

working families who are struggling. They need somebody to deal with

those issues and that is what the next Labour government will do. I

thought you were meant to be the party of competition? We are the

party of competition. This is the party that has given us some of

these problems. We have an annual competition review in the energy

sector. We have already tackling banking. What is interesting about

his proposal is it is the smaller ones who are less sure about this,

the smaller banks who think that this could inhibit the growth. It is

the smaller energy companies who think that through interfering with

the market, through his price freeze, that he will hinder

competition. We spoke about this before. It is a clever pitch that Ed

Miliband is making. Under the guise of token markets and claiming to be

the party of competition, he is creating the reason for state

intervention? -- broken markets Exactly, and it is state

intervention that does not work There is a proud tradition in

government of smashing open cartels. Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a

century ago. The problem is, in those situations it was clear and

obvious that the consumers were suffering. I am not sure it is

entirely obvious in this country. In the banking sector we have free

current accounts in the high street. That is not true in all Western

countries. In the energy sector our bills are not outlandish they high.

It is when we take taxes into account the become unaffordable He

has to make the case that consumers are suffering as a result of these

monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it is not about state intervention but

about making markets work. The piece that was written by his intellectual

Duryea about the significance and the importance of Teddy Roosevelt.

He was the Republican president in the yearly -- in the early years of

the last century. He wanted markets to work. There is an interesting

debate on Twitter this morning. Tim Montgomerie is saying, why are we,

the Conservative Party, not seen as the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are

seen as the party of business. There are smaller energy companies

competing against the big six. In banking, we have seen smaller

companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six

energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the

Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign

policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme

candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that

may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is

these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the

Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went

in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a

repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The

instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not

to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not

ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall

be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it It

is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay

marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded

retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think

he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots

of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting

with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several

layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is

saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called

the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the

party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is

left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP

because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it

turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their

mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a

protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people

saying utterly ridiculous things like that man in Henley-on-Thames.

But this is a chance to vote against the entire political establishment.

I am not sure that comments like that will make much of a difference.

There are lots of arguments about climate change. That was certainly a

new one! They are the only big protest party at the moment. Protest

party is obviously hoovered up lots of votes. We have got to be clear in

European message that we are the only party that can reform Europe

and give people a proper choice the first referendum in over 40 years.

Mr Sylvester used to be a conservative. You're probably glad

to see the back of him? David Cameron is right, there are probably

a few fruitcakes around there. I think that mainstream conservatives

will understand that this is the only party that can secure European

reform and give people the choice they have been arguing for. Whatever

happens in the European elections, it is a protest vote. We have almost

run out of time. We will see this week of Chris Rennard gets the party

whip act. There is a battle brewing between Danny Alexander and the

common side of the Liberal Democrats and the House of Lords. If he turns

up on Monday and asks to be let in, I they going to make a big scene at

the gate of Parliament? And the issue will stay in the papers? Yes,

they are clearly nervous that Lord Rennard might be tempted to mount a

legal bid. That is all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily

Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two. And I will be here again

next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.