12/01/2014 Sunday Politics West


12/01/2014

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the

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coalition is fighting over cuts Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance

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the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he

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will cut. That is the top story Chris Grayling called for a

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completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the

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European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.

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Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how

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will they get In the West, a backlog of benefit

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claims. Families coping with serious illness

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ambulance even when the incident may be serious. Have cuts left to the

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service being overstretched? With me for the duration, a top trio

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of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They

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will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick

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Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories,

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the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on

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welfare after the next election You cannot say, as the Conservatives

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are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will

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not make any additional contributions from their taxes if

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there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to

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balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy

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people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the

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hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear

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to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make

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additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public

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finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories

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a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive

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differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two

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years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is

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what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying

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to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the

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polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will

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do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined

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with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There

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was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the

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Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent

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macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals

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with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was

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more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have

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to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party,

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but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was

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foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a

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coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I

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cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about

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principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed

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Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a

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joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed

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Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood

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the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he

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said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels

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liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition and

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maybe those winds will haunt him all the way to the general election But

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he feels liberated, he says, we will be the restraining influence on both

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the Conservatives, who cannot insure that the recovery is fair, and the

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Labour Party, that do not have economic red ability. He feels

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relaxed, and that is why he is attacking the Tories and appearing

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pretty relaxed. He could also be falling into a trap. The Tories

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think what they suggesting on welfare cuts is possible. The more

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he attacks it, the more Tories will say, if you gave us an overall

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majority, he is the one it. He keeps taking these ostensibly on popular

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positions and it only makes sense when you talk to them behind the

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scenes, they are going after a tiny slice of the electorate, 20%, who

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are open to the idea of voting Lib Dem, and their views are a bit more

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left liberal than the bulk of the public. There is a perverse logic in

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them aggressively targeting that section of voters. In the end, ten

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macro's problem, if you do not like what this coalition has been doing,

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you will not vote for somebody who was part of it, you will vote for

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the Labour Party. The Tories are too nasty, Labour are to spendthrift,

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Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has gone to Labour, and that is what

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could hand the largest party to Labour. That small number of voters,

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soft Tory voters, the problem for the Liberal Democrats is, if you

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fight, as they did, three general elections to the left of the Labour

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Party, and at the end of the third, you find yourself in Colour Vision

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with the Conservatives, you have a problem.

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Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has had to deal with aid riot at HM

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Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike and unhappy probation officers

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taking industrial action. Prison works. It ensures that we are

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protected from murderers, muggers and rapists. It makes many who are

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tempted to commit crime think twice. Traditional Tory policy on criminal

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justice and prisons has been tough talking and tough dealing. Not only

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have they tended to think what they are offering is right, but have had

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the feeling, you thinking what they thinking. But nearly two decades

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after Michael Howard's message, his party, in Colour Vision government,

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is finding prison has to work like everything else within today's

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financial realities. The Justice Secretary for two years after the

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election had previous in this field. Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a

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change of direction. Just binding up more and more people for longer

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without actively seeking to change them is, in my opinion, what you

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would expect of Victorian England. The key to keeping people out of

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prison now, it seems, is giving them in a job, on release. Ironically,

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Ken Clarke was released from his job 15 months ago and replaced by Chris

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Grayling. But here, within HM Prison Liverpool, Timpson has been working

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since 2009 with chosen offenders to offer training and the chance of a

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job. Before you ask, they do not teach them keep cutting in a

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category B prison. The Academy is deliberately meant to look like a

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company store, not a prison. It helps. You forget where you are at

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times, it feels weird, going back to a wing at the end of the day. It is

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different. A different atmosphere. That is why people like it. Timpson

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have six academies in prisons, training prisoners inside, and

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outside they offer jobs to ex-offenders, who make up 8% of

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their staff. It has been hard work persuading some governors that such

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cooperation can work. I have seen a dramatic change positively, working

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with prisoners, particularly in the last five years. They understand now

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what business's expectation is. Timpson do not just employ

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offenders, but as one ex-prisoner released in February and now

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managing his own store says, the point is many others will not employ

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offenders at all. From what I have experienced, on one hand, you have

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somebody with a criminal conviction, on the other, somebody who does not

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have one, so it is a case of favouring those who have a clean

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record. Anybody with a criminal conviction is passed to one side and

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overlooked. That, amongst myriad other changes to prison and how we

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deal with prisoners, is on the desk of the man at the top. Ever since

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Chris Grayling became Secretary of State for Justice, he has wanted to

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signal a change of direction of policy, and he is in a hurry to make

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radical reforms across the board, from size and types of prisons to

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probation services, reoffending rates, legal aid services, and there

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has been opposition to that from groups who do not agree with him.

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But what might actually shackle him is none of that. It is the fact that

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he is in government with a party that does not always agree with him,

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he has to abide by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights,

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and in those famous words, there is no money left. We would like to go

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further and faster. I would like him too, but we are where we are. If the

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Liberal Democrats want to be wiped out at the next election based on

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what they believe, that is fair enough. We accept there has to be

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savings, but there are areas where we feel that there is ideological

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driven policy-making going on, and privatising may not save any money

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at all, and so does not make any sense. The question is, we'll all of

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that means some of Chris Grayling's reforms need closer inspection?

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Chris Grayling joins me now. Welcome. We have a lot to cover If

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you get your way, your own personal way, will be next Tory manifesto

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promise to withdraw from the European Convention of human

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rights? It will contain a promise for radical changes. We have to

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curtail the role of the European court here, replace our human rights

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act from the late 1990s, make our Supreme Court our Supreme Court

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they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we

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have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and

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responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do

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not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last

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September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is

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clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as

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long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in

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Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency -

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recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will

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publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a

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direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will

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mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the

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European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept

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that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform,

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but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we

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need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the

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different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We

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are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our

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colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our

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decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not,

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in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will

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see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that

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deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the

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Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point,

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we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is

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what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But

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how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we

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will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail

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the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The

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decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you

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sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney

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General says. I would be asking Strasberg a

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different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is

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enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if

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this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale

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reform in the court tomorrow, I m not sure it is going to happen which

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is why we are going to the election with a clear plan for this country.

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Would you want that to be a red line in any coalition agreement? My

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mission is to win the next election with a majority. But you have to say

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where your red lines would be. We have been very clear it is an area

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where we don't agree as parties but in my view the public in this

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country are overwhelmingly behind the Conservative party. 95

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Conservative MPs have written to the Prime Minister, demanding he gives

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the House of Commons the authority to veto any aspect of European Union

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law. Are you one of the people who wanted to sign that letter but you

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couldn't because you are minister? I haven't been asked to sign the

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letter. We need a red card system for European law. I'm not convinced

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my colleagues... I don't think it is realistic to have a situation where

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one parliament can veto laws across the European Union. I understand the

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concerns of my colleagues, but when we set out to renegotiate our

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membership, we have got to deliver renegotiation and deliver a system

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which is viable, and I'm not convinced we can have a situation

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where one Parliament can prevent laws across the whole European

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Union. So you wouldn't have signed this letter? I'm not sure it is the

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right approach. I support the system I just talked about. Iain Duncan

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Smith has suggested EU migrants coming to work in this country

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should have to wait for two years before they qualify for welfare

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benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think there should be an assumption that

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before you can move from one country to another, before you can start to

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take back from that country's social welfare system, you should have made

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a contribution to it. I spent two and a half years working in Brussels

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trying to get the European Commission to accept the need for

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change. There is a groundswell of opinion out there which is behind

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Iain Duncan Smith in what he is saying. I think we should push for a

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clear system that says people should be able to move from one country to

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get a job, but to move to another country to live off the state is not

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acceptable. You are planning a new 2000 capacity mega prison and other

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smaller presence which will be run by private firms. After what has

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happened with G4S, why would you do that? No decision has been made

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about whether it will be public or private. What do you think it will

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be? I'm not sure yet. There is no clear correlation over public and

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private prisons and whether there are problems or otherwise. Oakwood

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is in its early stages, it has had teething problems at the start, but

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the rate of disturbance there is only typical for an average prison

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of its category. If you take an example of Parc prison in Wales a

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big private run prison, run by G4S, when it was first launched under the

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last government it had teething problems of the same kind as Oakwood

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and is now regarded as one of the best performing prisons. Why would

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you give it to a private company then? We have only just got planning

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permission for the so we will not be thinking about this for another few

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years. Some of the companies who run prisons are under investigation with

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dreadful track records. In the case of G4S, what we have experienced is

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acceptable and they have not been able to go ahead with a number of

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contracts they might have otherwise got. They are having to prove to the

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Government they are fit to win contracts from the Government again.

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They are having to pay compensation to the Government and the taxpayer.

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What has happened is unacceptable. So why would you give them a 20 0

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capacity mega prison? Or anyone like them? It cannot be said that every

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private company is bad. In addition to problems at Oakwood, you are

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quite unique now in your position that you have managed to get the

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barristers out on strike the first time since history began. What

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happens if the bar refuses to do work at your new rates of legal aid

:20:24.:20:29.

and the courts grind to a halt? I don't believe that will happen. When

:20:30.:20:33.

the barristers came out on strike, three quarters of Crown Courts were

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operating normally, 95% of magistrates courts were operating

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normally. We are having to take difficult decisions across

:20:45.:20:47.

government, I have no desire to cut back lately but we are spending over

:20:48.:20:52.

?2 billion on legal aid at the moment at a time when budgets are

:20:53.:20:56.

becoming tougher. You issued misleading figures about criminal

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barristers, you said that 25% of them earn over ?100,000 per year but

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that is their turnover, including VAT. 33% of that money goes on their

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expenses, they have to pay for their own pensions and insurance. People

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are not getting wealthy out of doing this work. I don't publish figures,

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our statisticians do, with caveats in place explaining the situation.

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Where you have high-cost cases, where we have taken the most

:21:32.:21:36.

difficult decisions, we have tried hard in taking difficult decisions

:21:37.:21:40.

to focus the impact higher up the income scale. But do you accept

:21:41.:21:51.

their take-home pay is not 100, 00? I accept they have to take out other

:21:52.:21:56.

costs, although some things like travelling to the court, you and I

:21:57.:22:00.

and everyone else has to pay for travelling to work. That is net of

:22:01.:22:11.

VAT. We have had a variety of figures published, some are and some

:22:12.:22:17.

are not. Let's be clear, the gross figures for fees from legal payments

:22:18.:22:24.

include 20% VAT. On a week when even a cabinet minister can be fitted up

:22:25.:22:30.

by the police, don't we all need well-financed legal aid? There is no

:22:31.:22:37.

chance that as a result well-financed legal aid? There is no

:22:38.:22:40.

changes people will end up in court unable to defend themselves. We have

:22:41.:22:53.

said in exceptional circumstances, if you haven't got any money to pay,

:22:54.:22:58.

we will support you, but there is no question of anyone ended up in

:22:59.:23:01.

court, facing a criminal charge where they haven't got a lawyer to

:23:02.:23:07.

defend them. Let's look at how so many dangerous criminals have

:23:08.:23:12.

managed to avoid jail. Here are the figures for 2012. Half the people

:23:13.:23:17.

for sexual assault found guilty not jailed. I thought you were meant to

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be tough on crime? Those figures predate my time, but since 2010 the

:23:30.:23:34.

number of those people going to jail has been increasing steadily. If you

:23:35.:23:40.

put the figures for 2010 on there, you would see a significant change.

:23:41.:23:44.

We will never be in a position where everybody who commits violence will

:23:45.:23:50.

end up in jail. The courts will often decided to his more

:23:51.:23:54.

appropriate to give a community sentence, but the trend is towards

:23:55.:23:58.

longer sentences and more people going to jail. That maybe but it is

:23:59.:24:04.

even quite hard to get sent to jail if you do these things a lot, again

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and again. In 2012 one criminal avoided being sent to jail despite

:24:12.:24:15.

having more than 300 offences to his name. 36,000 avoided going to jail

:24:16.:24:25.

despite 15 previous offences. That is why we are taking steps to

:24:26.:24:29.

toughen up the system. Last autumn we scrapped repeat cautions. You

:24:30.:24:35.

could find people getting dozens. As of last autumn, we have scrapped

:24:36.:24:41.

repeat cautions. If you commit the same offence twice within a two year

:24:42.:24:45.

period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to

:24:46.:24:52.

jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another

:24:53.:24:58.

34,000 prison places. You haven t got room to put bad people in jail?

:24:59.:25:05.

The courts will take the decisions, and it is for them to take the

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decisions and not me, that two men in a bar fight do not merit a jail

:25:11.:25:16.

sentence. These figures contain a huge amount of offences from the

:25:17.:25:21.

most minor of offences to the most despicable. Something is wrong if

:25:22.:25:25.

you can commit 300 offences and still not end up in jail. That's

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right, and we are taking steps so this cannot happen any more. Nick

:25:32.:25:38.

Clegg said this morning you are going to make 12 billion of welfare

:25:39.:25:46.

cuts on the back of this, he is right, isn't he? People on the

:25:47.:25:50.

lowest incomes are often not paying tax at all, the rich... But these

:25:51.:25:59.

cuts will fall disproportionately on average earners, correct? Let's look

:26:00.:26:04.

at the proposal to limit housing benefit for under 25s. Until today,

:26:05.:26:12.

after people have left school or college, the live for a time with

:26:13.:26:18.

their parents. For some, that is not possible and we will have to take

:26:19.:26:22.

that into account, but we have said there is a strong case for saying

:26:23.:26:26.

you will not get housing benefit until you are some years down the

:26:27.:26:31.

road and have properly established yourselves in work. And by

:26:32.:26:34.

definition these people are on lower than average salaries. Give me a

:26:35.:26:42.

case in which those on the higher tax band will contribute to the

:26:43.:26:48.

cuts. We have already put in place tax changes so that the highest tax

:26:49.:26:52.

rate is already higher than it was in every year of the last

:26:53.:27:00.

government. The amount of tax.. There is no more expected of the

:27:01.:27:06.

rich. We will clearly look at future policy and work out how best to

:27:07.:27:10.

distribute the tax burden in this country and it is not for me to

:27:11.:27:15.

second-guess George Osborne's future plans, but we need to look at for

:27:16.:27:21.

example housing benefit for the under 25s. Is it right for those who

:27:22.:27:27.

are not working for the state to provide accommodation for them?

:27:28.:27:33.

Thank you for being with us. All three major parties at

:27:34.:27:35.

Westminster agree there's an urgent need to build more homes for

:27:36.:27:38.

Britain's growing population. But how they get built, and where, looks

:27:39.:27:41.

set to become a major battle ground in the run-up to the next general

:27:42.:27:43.

election. Although 16% more house-builds were

:27:44.:27:46.

started in 2012/13 than the previous year, the number actually completed

:27:47.:27:49.

fell by 8% - the lowest level in peacetime since 1920. The Office for

:27:50.:27:56.

National Statistics estimates that between now and 2021 we should

:27:57.:27:59.

expect 220,000 new households to be created every year. At his party's

:28:00.:28:06.

conference last autumn, Ed Miliband promised a Labour government would

:28:07.:28:13.

massively increase house-building. I will have a clear aim but by the end

:28:14.:28:18.

of the parliament, Britain will be building 200,000 homes per year

:28:19.:28:23.

more than at any time for a generation. That is how we make

:28:24.:28:27.

Britain better than this. The Labour leader also says he'd give urban

:28:28.:28:31.

councils a "right to grow" so rural neighbours can't block expansion and

:28:32.:28:34.

force developers with unused land to use it or lose it. The Government

:28:35.:28:39.

has been pursuing its own ideas including loan guarantees for

:28:40.:28:41.

developers and a new homes bonus to boost new house-building. But David

:28:42.:28:45.

Cameron could have trouble keeping his supporters on side - this week

:28:46.:28:48.

the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi criticised planning reforms for

:28:49.:28:50.

causing "physical harm" to the countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile

:28:51.:28:57.

prefers a radical solution - brand new garden cities in the south east

:28:58.:29:12.

of England. In a speech tomorrow, Labour's shadow housing minister

:29:13.:29:15.

Emma Reynolds will give more details of how Labour would boost

:29:16.:29:17.

house-building, and she joins me now. It is not the politicians to

:29:18.:29:22.

blame, it is the lack of house-builders? We want a vibrant

:29:23.:29:27.

building industry, and at the moment that industry is dominated by big

:29:28.:29:33.

house-builders. I want to see a more diverse and competitive industry,

:29:34.:29:36.

where self build plays a greater role. In France over 60% of new

:29:37.:29:44.

homes are built by self builders, but small builders build more homes

:29:45.:29:49.

as well. 25 years ago they were building two thirds of new homes,

:29:50.:29:53.

now they are not building even a third of new homes. That's because

:29:54.:29:57.

land policies have been so restrictive that it is only the big

:29:58.:30:00.

companies who can afford to buy the land, so little land is being

:30:01.:30:05.

released for house building. I agree, there are some fundamental

:30:06.:30:10.

structural problems with the land market and that is why we have said

:30:11.:30:13.

there doesn't just need to be tinkering around the edges, there

:30:14.:30:17.

needs to be real reforms to make sure that small builders and self

:30:18.:30:22.

build and custom-built have access to land. They are saying they have

:30:23.:30:27.

problems with access to land and finance. At the end of the day it

:30:28.:30:33.

will not be self, small builders who reach your target, it will be big

:30:34.:30:39.

builders. I think it is pretty shameful that in Western Europe the

:30:40.:30:43.

new houses built in the UK are smaller than our neighbours. But

:30:44.:30:52.

isn't not the land problem? France is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and

:30:53.:30:56.

we are and that is not a problem for them. There is a perception we are

:30:57.:31:04.

going to build on the countryside, but not even 10% is on the

:31:05.:31:10.

countryside. There is enough for us to have our golf courses. There is

:31:11.:31:18.

enough other land for us to build on that is not golf courses. The

:31:19.:31:22.

planning minister has said he wants to build our National Parks, I am

:31:23.:31:26.

not suggesting that. The single biggest land border is the public

:31:27.:31:33.

sector. It is not. There are great opportunities for releasing public

:31:34.:31:37.

land, that is why I have been asking the government, they say they are

:31:38.:31:42.

going to release and of public land for tens of thousands of new homes

:31:43.:31:45.

to be built, but they say they are not monitoring how many houses are

:31:46.:31:50.

being built on the site. When your leader says to landowners, housing

:31:51.:31:57.

development owners, either use the land or lose it, in what way will

:31:58.:32:03.

they lose it? Will you confiscated? This is about strengthening the hand

:32:04.:32:08.

of local authorities, and they say to us that in some cases,

:32:09.:32:13.

house-builders are sitting on land. In those cases, we would give the

:32:14.:32:17.

power to local authorities to escalate fees. This would be the

:32:18.:32:23.

compulsory purchase orders, a matter of last resort, and you would hope

:32:24.:32:28.

that by strengthening the hand of local authorities, you could get the

:32:29.:32:35.

house-builders to start building the homes that people want. Would you

:32:36.:32:42.

compulsory purchase it? We would give the local authority as a last

:32:43.:32:46.

resort, after escalating the fees, the possibility and flexible it is

:32:47.:32:50.

to use the compulsory purchase orders to sell the land on to a

:32:51.:32:53.

house builder who wants to build houses that we need. Can you name

:32:54.:32:58.

one report that has come back in recent years that shows that

:32:59.:33:01.

hoarding of land by house-builders is a major problem? The IMF, the

:33:02.:33:07.

Conservative mayor of London and the Local Government Association are

:33:08.:33:09.

telling us that there is a problem with land hoarding. Therefore, we

:33:10.:33:14.

have said, where there is land with planning permission, and if plots

:33:15.:33:19.

are being sat on... Boris Johnson says there are 180,000 plots in

:33:20.:33:24.

London being sat on. We need to make sure the house-builders are building

:33:25.:33:32.

the homes that young families need. They get planning permission and

:33:33.:33:35.

sell it on to the developer. There is a whole degree of complicity but

:33:36.:33:38.

there is another problem before that. That is around transparency

:33:39.:33:44.

about land options. There is agricultural land that

:33:45.:33:47.

house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is.

:33:48.:33:54.

Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the

:33:55.:34:00.

south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most

:34:01.:34:05.

reluctant to do it, will you in central government take powers to

:34:06.:34:08.

force these authorities to give it? We have talked about the right to

:34:09.:34:16.

grow, we were in Stevenage recently. What we have said is we

:34:17.:34:24.

want to strengthen the hand of local authorities like Stevenage so they

:34:25.:34:26.

are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes but

:34:27.:34:33.

they do not have the land supply. What about the authorities that do

:34:34.:34:36.

not want to do it? They should be forced to sit down and agree with

:34:37.:34:40.

the neighbouring authority. In Stevenage, it is estimated at

:34:41.:34:45.

?500,000 has been spent on legal fees because North Hertfordshire is

:34:46.:34:47.

blocking Stevenage every step of the way. Michael Lyons says the national

:34:48.:34:54.

interest will have to take President over local interest. Voice cannot

:34:55.:35:01.

mean a veto. The local community in Stevenage is crying out for new

:35:02.:35:06.

homes. Do you agree? There has to be land available for new homes to be

:35:07.:35:10.

built, and in areas like Oxford Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree

:35:11.:35:16.

with Michael Lyons? The national interest does have to be served

:35:17.:35:38.

with Michael Lyons? The national will put the five new towns? We have

:35:39.:35:43.

asked him to look at how we can incentivise local authorities to

:35:44.:35:45.

come forward with sites for new towns. You cannot tell us where they

:35:46.:35:51.

are going to be? I cannot. We will have to wait for him. When you look

:35:52.:35:55.

at the historic figures overall not at the moment, Private Housing

:35:56.:36:01.

building is only just beginning to recover, but it has been pretty

:36:02.:36:05.

steady for a while. The big difference between house-building

:36:06.:36:08.

now and in the past, since Mrs Thatcher came to power a and

:36:09.:36:12.

including the Tony Blair government, we did not build council houses

:36:13.:36:17.

Almost none. Will the next Labour government embark on a major council

:36:18.:36:22.

has programme? We inherited housing stock back in 1997... This is

:36:23.:36:30.

important. Will the next Labour government embark on a major council

:36:31.:36:34.

has programme? We have called on this government to bring forward

:36:35.:36:36.

investment in social housing. We want to see an investment programme

:36:37.:36:43.

in social housing, I cannot give you the figures now. We are 18 months

:36:44.:36:48.

away from the election. Will the next Labour government embark on a

:36:49.:36:51.

major council house Northern programme? I want to see a council

:36:52.:36:56.

house building programme, because there is a big shortage of council

:36:57.:37:01.

homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got there in the end. -- that is a yes?

:37:02.:37:08.

We will be talking to Patrick homes in the West Midlands in a moment.

:37:09.:37:15.

You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20

:37:16.:37:18.

minutes, I will look at the week ahead with our political

:37:19.:37:31.

Welcome to the first Sunday Politics in the West of 2014. Coming up this

:37:32.:37:37.

week, what's the point of receiving disability benefits after you have

:37:38.:37:42.

died? That is what is happening because of delays in the system We

:37:43.:37:45.

will hear from a Somerset mother with terminal cancer who still has

:37:46.:37:48.

not received her disability allowance eight months after first

:37:49.:37:54.

applying. Joining me on our first show, we have Tessa Munt, the

:37:55.:37:57.

Liberal Democrat MP for Wales, and Clare Moody, who is hoping to become

:37:58.:38:00.

a Member of the European Parliament for Labour in the next elections

:38:01.:38:05.

this May. Just got to be elected first. Let's start if we can about

:38:06.:38:10.

the restrictions that were relaxed on Bulgarians and Romanians coming

:38:11.:38:15.

into this country. It turned to be not much at all, didn't it?

:38:16.:38:20.

Absolutely. Yes, after all the coverage and certain elements trying

:38:21.:38:24.

to big this up as being a huge influx of people coming from

:38:25.:38:27.

Bulgaria and Romania, it turns out there were actually less coming into

:38:28.:38:30.

the country on the 1st of January than there was last year. It is

:38:31.:38:37.

still early in January, of course. You could see more. Would that be a

:38:38.:38:41.

bad thing? The people who come here come here to work and play fair If

:38:42.:38:49.

they are part of our society and contributing to our society, as the

:38:50.:38:58.

majority are, then no. Tessa, did politicians ramp this up? I think

:38:59.:39:01.

some people got fairly hysterical about it. But as has been proven,

:39:02.:39:07.

there are fewer people coming in. And people do come to work. There

:39:08.:39:11.

are number of people in my constituency who do come to work,

:39:12.:39:15.

and that is what they do, they work very hard and very often. They do

:39:16.:39:20.

the jobs that people locally do not feel able to do. So you would not

:39:21.:39:24.

like to see a cap? No. From a business point of view, it is

:39:25.:39:27.

sensible that people should have access to work. There are large

:39:28.:39:31.

numbers of people from this part of the world who go abroad to work Not

:39:32.:39:35.

too many from Romania. Possibly not too many from Romania, but to the

:39:36.:39:37.

rest of Europe. Well, it has been the wettest

:39:38.:39:41.

Christmas and New Year that I can remember. It has been just a bit

:39:42.:39:44.

depressing, frankly, for most of us. But for some communities, the

:39:45.:39:47.

results have been devastating. The floods have turned parts of the West

:39:48.:39:51.

Country into giant lakes and ruined some homes. Everyone is trying to

:39:52.:39:54.

point the finger of blame. One thing is certain, Government funding is a

:39:55.:39:57.

big issue. Here's Paul Barltrop The West Country has been watery for

:39:58.:40:00.

weeks. Gloucestershire and Wiltshire have suffered but nowhere has been

:40:01.:40:04.

hit as hard a Somerset, just as it was one year ago. It has brought a

:40:05.:40:09.

flood of complaints. They should be protecting us. You're not happy are

:40:10.:40:14.

you? No, I am very angry. We have been pushing and pushing for

:40:15.:40:17.

dredging to be done and they will not do it. This has become an annual

:40:18.:40:21.

event. Something must be done over dredging the River Parrett. Two big

:40:22.:40:24.

rivers flow through the Levels. All agree that the Tone and Parrett

:40:25.:40:27.

would drain beter if regularly dredged, but the Government's

:40:28.:40:29.

Environment Agency is under financial pressure. `` dream better.

:40:30.:40:36.

The challenge for us is how we best use our funding. River water floods

:40:37.:40:41.

the fields, floods out roads and threatens properties. One of the

:40:42.:40:46.

solutions to manage that is to dredge sections of the rivers. That

:40:47.:40:52.

can cost up to ?4 million. It is a challenge for us to justify funding

:40:53.:40:58.

the whole of that. The Environment Agency gets its money from the

:40:59.:41:01.

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Defra sets out how

:41:02.:41:04.

that money should be spent. Ministers boast that over four

:41:05.:41:07.

years, funding to tackle flooding will rise to ?2.3 billion. But the

:41:08.:41:12.

big increases are for capital projects. More routine work like

:41:13.:41:18.

keeping rivers flowing will fall. So the Tone and the Parrett may yet

:41:19.:41:22.

again miss out. Local politicians have been preoccupied with problems

:41:23.:41:25.

on the ground, but they are preparing to put pressure on the

:41:26.:41:31.

Government. We have got to get to the point where we clear the main

:41:32.:41:34.

watercourses. We are launching a lobbying campaign and will be

:41:35.:41:37.

lobbying MPs, Defra, central Government. We will ask for help. We

:41:38.:41:42.

need money into the Environment Agency to get these watercourses

:41:43.:41:46.

clear. Floods in Muchelney two winters running swept away the

:41:47.:41:49.

belief that this was a once in a 100 year event. Politicians ranging from

:41:50.:41:55.

the Prime Minister to MEP Graham Watson, who lives nearby, fear it

:41:56.:42:00.

may happen more in future. We do know that the onset of climate

:42:01.:42:03.

change means that weather patterns will be less predictable and the

:42:04.:42:06.

regularity or frequency of something like this might be greater. That is

:42:07.:42:13.

why we need to prepare for less predictable weather patterns in the

:42:14.:42:19.

future. After the deluge comes the clean`up. Only when the waters

:42:20.:42:23.

subside will the full scale of the damage be known. In Gloucestershire,

:42:24.:42:26.

they are once again based for a big road repair bill. At the moment I

:42:27.:42:32.

couldn't envisage what this current flooding will cost us, but what I

:42:33.:42:36.

can say is the 2007 flood, which was considerably more than this one

:42:37.:42:39.

cost the county ?20 million in road repairs and maintenance to put the

:42:40.:42:46.

infrastructure back right. The water should be gone within weeks. The

:42:47.:42:49.

argument over who foots the bill will last much longer.

:42:50.:42:57.

Joining us in the studio now is Dr Richard Johnson, a senior lecturer

:42:58.:43:00.

in physical geography at Bath Spa University, who specialises in

:43:01.:43:04.

flooding. We'll come along. Is there a formula

:43:05.:43:12.

the Government uses? We will spend ?1 million if we save 100 homes from

:43:13.:43:20.

flooding? They would assess whether it is worth while defending those

:43:21.:43:25.

particular assets and risks. It is not only a financial decision. They

:43:26.:43:28.

must consider the implications of actions on the physical environment

:43:29.:43:33.

but also the college as well. It is complicated. The allegation is that

:43:34.:43:39.

the big eye`catching projects seem to get the funding but the dirty

:43:40.:43:43.

routine work, dredging a river, is not such a high priority. Is that

:43:44.:43:49.

fair? Dredging is a complicated issue because, by dredging eight

:43:50.:43:54.

river, you can cause issues in the river system that can cause problems

:43:55.:43:57.

elsewhere and you can impact the ecology of the river. It is not just

:43:58.:44:02.

an economic decision. It is not as simple as we might like to think?

:44:03.:44:09.

OK. Is it fair to expect the taxpayer to protect every property

:44:10.:44:15.

in the country? It is fair to expect the Government to implement flood

:44:16.:44:22.

defence protections. And not, when you see situations like this, where

:44:23.:44:25.

you have flooding of houses and that flooding, you know, the defence

:44:26.:44:31.

might have cost one eighth of what the costs of cleaning up the

:44:32.:44:37.

consequences of the flooding. You are investing to save money and very

:44:38.:44:41.

much like your earlier point about the cost benefits... If there is

:44:42.:44:45.

enough houses, I guess. But if you buy a house on the Somerset Levels,

:44:46.:44:48.

shouldn't the first question you ask me, is this place going to flood,

:44:49.:44:52.

and if it does, can I afford to clean it up? We need to have

:44:53.:44:59.

accurate flood maps. We also need to recognise, you know, quite a lot of

:45:00.:45:02.

the Somerset Levels is on a flood plain. It is the extended periods

:45:03.:45:08.

and the fact you take that what happened last year, it was wet snow

:45:09.:45:13.

and it is still wet in April. The Environment Agency has a much `` has

:45:14.:45:20.

aims and objectives which relate only to wildlife and the prediction

:45:21.:45:25.

of that kind of thing. It does not recognise property and people, which

:45:26.:45:29.

is what the Government has to do. More importantly, in my area, they

:45:30.:45:36.

need dredging to, the rebels. `` the rivers. But it is not justice of the

:45:37.:45:43.

question of dredging. There are other things coming into play. But

:45:44.:45:47.

if you look at the way it works on the Somerset Levels, when a dredge,

:45:48.:45:53.

they take a bucket load out of the river and everyone has to stop work

:45:54.:45:57.

while the measure oxygen levels to make sure the fish have enough

:45:58.:46:00.

oxygen in the water. This means dredging a few miles can take years.

:46:01.:46:08.

What I am saying, if you go back to the old way it was done, I have

:46:09.:46:12.

people who worked in my constituency doing this by hand and it was a

:46:13.:46:15.

gentler way of doing things. One gentleman looked after 11 miles of

:46:16.:46:20.

river every year. That is what he did. We have to get round the fact

:46:21.:46:24.

this work has not been done in 0 years. We need to bring it back up

:46:25.:46:28.

to speed and have a programme of maintenance. With Labour reverse the

:46:29.:46:33.

cuts in environment? I cannot give you a guarantee that we would

:46:34.:46:38.

reverse the cuts. Mariette Eagle, the Shadow environmental Minister,

:46:39.:46:44.

has said she would look at departmental spending very, very

:46:45.:46:49.

carefully. With regards to flooding, I go back to the point I made before

:46:50.:46:55.

that you save money by investing. That is very much, I believe, the

:46:56.:47:01.

view of Labour. Is this particularly unusual this year and can they

:47:02.:47:06.

expect more of the same order just that it just happened this winter?

:47:07.:47:11.

It is significant. People have gone through a lot of trauma as a result.

:47:12.:47:14.

There are many incidences in the recent past of things according I

:47:15.:47:19.

am afraid it will happen again. Jackie. `` thank you. If you have

:47:20.:47:26.

been diagnosed with a serious illness, you would hope to receive

:47:27.:47:29.

the sickness benefit in title to as soon as possible.

:47:30.:47:33.

Here in the West, some people are waiting months with no word as to

:47:34.:47:36.

when money may come through. Delays appear to be down to extra medical

:47:37.:47:40.

tests brought in to try to control the rising bill for welfare.

:47:41.:47:46.

There is never a good time to be told you have terminal cancer, but

:47:47.:47:50.

the 30`year`old Rebecca McCafferty, it happened when she was pregnant

:47:51.:47:55.

with her baby daughter. She had to relay the news to her five other

:47:56.:48:00.

children. That was the worst part. I think that was the most difficult

:48:01.:48:03.

they, sitting them all down and telling them was hard. The older

:48:04.:48:08.

ones particularly, because they understand. Our illness and title

:48:09.:48:15.

totally new Personal Independence Payment from the Government. The

:48:16.:48:21.

money could be as much as ?430 a week to help with the extra costs

:48:22.:48:26.

with a condition. Eight months on and very little correspondence

:48:27.:48:29.

later, she is waiting to be assessed by the Government's chosen

:48:30.:48:34.

contractor. It is just frustrating we are in the situation we are in,

:48:35.:48:38.

and having cancer the Joe Hart, as you can imagine. Having six children

:48:39.:48:46.

with cancer is doubly different We're having financial

:48:47.:48:51.

difficulties, and that makes it ten times harbour. It is avoidable. If

:48:52.:49:00.

the were doing what they were meant to do, we would not be in this

:49:01.:49:04.

situation. The Government says it is too early to release figures about

:49:05.:49:08.

how long people are waiting for Personal Independence Payments. But

:49:09.:49:12.

they admitted is taking longer than expected. At this advice centre in

:49:13.:49:16.

Bristol, just one in 20 claims received since last June and have

:49:17.:49:20.

actually gone through the system. They were expecting it to take 2`15

:49:21.:49:26.

weeks as opposed to six weeks under Disability Living Allowance, but

:49:27.:49:30.

that is stretched out even further. The process of people being assessed

:49:31.:49:34.

has obviously been far more order this than they realise. The

:49:35.:49:41.

paperwork is far more complicated than they expected. In a statement,

:49:42.:49:46.

the Government insisted it was trying to make the process

:49:47.:49:49.

smoother, but added that claimants had not received money would do so

:49:50.:49:52.

eventually and that exceptional cases were being fast tracked. The

:49:53.:49:56.

firm responsible for the assessments has apologised for the delay and

:49:57.:50:01.

says it is hiring more staff, although training takes six months.

:50:02.:50:06.

Underlying all this is a controversial programme of welfare

:50:07.:50:10.

reform. The Government is keen to control the increasing costs of

:50:11.:50:13.

benefits and is after more rigour in the system. That is why it is asked

:50:14.:50:19.

the organisation to do more assessments and paperwork, but

:50:20.:50:22.

delays are mounting up. People in the West have the longest wait in

:50:23.:50:25.

the country to be assessed for employment and support allowance.

:50:26.:50:33.

Labour wants Atos out, but this Gloucester MP believes more the

:50:34.:50:38.

petition is the answer. The bottom line problem is the contract we

:50:39.:50:41.

inherited from the previous Government was with a single

:50:42.:50:45.

supplier. Atos were the only people doing these work capability

:50:46.:50:48.

assessments. Markets do not work well with a monopoly at provider.

:50:49.:50:54.

You need competition. The Government has said it will change this and

:50:55.:50:59.

introduce regional dividers to provide the competition and better

:51:00.:51:05.

service. `` regional providers. They have said this should become

:51:06.:51:07.

operational during the summer of this year. That is a big step

:51:08.:51:15.

forward. Back at home, Rebecca's wait for her benefit goes on, not

:51:16.:51:18.

knowing how long she might have left. Until you are actually in the

:51:19.:51:24.

thick of it, you cannot fully comprehend how difficult it is. It

:51:25.:51:32.

has such an impact on your life To have the Government feel others

:51:33.:51:37.

which is how I feel, they have failed us by putting us in this

:51:38.:51:43.

situation, it makes me so angry It upsets me to think these things

:51:44.:51:50.

should be put in place and they are not put in place for people like us.

:51:51.:51:55.

And we needed. It is a very moving story. That is

:51:56.:51:59.

better news for Rebecca and her family. Since we alerted them

:52:00.:52:03.

actually to her case, they have carried out her assessment, so

:52:04.:52:06.

hopefully she will hear from them soon. We asked for a minister or

:52:07.:52:09.

indeed anyone in terms of people who are newly

:52:10.:52:32.

diagnosed, I do not know them personally very much at all.

:52:33.:52:38.

My organisation is for people who define themselves as a disabled

:52:39.:52:44.

person. I cases such as husbandry? `` I cases like this rare? No, not

:52:45.:52:54.

at all. There are huge delays in the roll`out of this benefit for

:52:55.:52:58.

first`time claimants. They have admitted they just did not

:52:59.:53:01.

appreciate how long the process was going to take to do properly. You're

:53:02.:53:09.

part of this Government, Tessa. How difficult can it be to get a letter

:53:10.:53:12.

from the Government saying this person is dying and they need help?

:53:13.:53:17.

This is the problem. They will not accept the letter from the doctor.

:53:18.:53:23.

It is barmy. It is completely with a kiss. I have people who come to me

:53:24.:53:29.

and are still waiting from March. `` completely ludicrous. It should not

:53:30.:53:38.

take for an MP to intervene for someone to get fairness and justice

:53:39.:53:40.

in this system. We must sort this out properly. You are part of the

:53:41.:53:47.

Government. I spend a good deal of time with my staff... This is to do

:53:48.:53:53.

with Atos. It is a poorly written contract. We need to get people who

:53:54.:54:03.

specialise in doing proper specifications for these contracts.

:54:04.:54:12.

What about the 2% of people? It is a 2% that matter. The lady we saw

:54:13.:54:16.

there was under stress. When you're severely ill, the last thing you

:54:17.:54:19.

need is more stress because it makes you more ill and brings people into

:54:20.:54:23.

a situation where they have mental health problems. What would you do?

:54:24.:54:30.

What would Labour do? We would end the contract with Atos. They have

:54:31.:54:35.

proved time and again, like so many people, that they are incapable of

:54:36.:54:39.

delivering a benefit to people when the `` when the absolutely needed

:54:40.:54:49.

most. Do you accept the Government is right to make it more rigorous in

:54:50.:54:52.

their assessment of people claiming disability benefits to try and cut

:54:53.:54:57.

the bill? No, they should make it more effective as an assessment

:54:58.:55:01.

which is not the same thing. At the moment, enormous amounts of money

:55:02.:55:05.

have been wasted on unnecessary appeals. It is estimated 32 people a

:55:06.:55:15.

week are dying while waiting for the result when they have been told that

:55:16.:55:18.

they should be able to work either immediately or in the near future.

:55:19.:55:22.

You're going along and John being assessed by people who know what the

:55:23.:55:27.

impact of having impairments is a black person's day`to`day life.

:55:28.:55:32.

Claims for disability benefit have gone up hugely. But now, this

:55:33.:55:38.

statistic is about Disability Living Allowance. Where it has gone up most

:55:39.:55:44.

is in the two sections of claimants are not affected. That is children

:55:45.:55:50.

and older people. Working age population, although the period

:55:51.:55:53.

described, their own figures say 4% increase. Do you accept the

:55:54.:55:59.

Government is right to examine people very carefully before being

:56:00.:56:03.

allowed to have disability benefits? We saw in the Olympics just what

:56:04.:56:09.

disabled people can achieve. Absolutely. I can not agree more

:56:10.:56:13.

about the disabled Olympics and the demonstration that gave about

:56:14.:56:18.

disabled people's achievements. There has always been a test process

:56:19.:56:24.

around getting benefits associated with disability. That is not the

:56:25.:56:29.

issue. The issue is the competence and the level of test that people

:56:30.:56:38.

are being put through. I must say, it is not just them actually. I had

:56:39.:56:43.

the same issue with the Department of work and pensions. I filled out a

:56:44.:56:49.

form saying I cannot walk because I have problems with nerve pain. I

:56:50.:56:53.

would get a response saying, you're not good to get it, you could have a

:56:54.:56:58.

walking stick. So you have had similar problems with the state as

:56:59.:57:02.

well? Now it is time for a look at the

:57:03.:57:07.

week just gone in 60 seconds. A charity has claimed that each

:57:08.:57:11.

badger shot in the West last autumn cost more than ?4000. Care for the

:57:12.:57:15.

Wild produced the figures. The Government insisted the costs were

:57:16.:57:18.

outweighed by the expense to farmers by bovine TB.

:57:19.:57:22.

Supporters of the English Defence League clashed with antifascist

:57:23.:57:27.

groups in Bristol on Tuesday night. They were protesting after

:57:28.:57:31.

permission was granted for a mosque. A big beast in West Country politics

:57:32.:57:35.

is to step down at the next election. Don Foster, the MP for

:57:36.:57:38.

Bath, has decided that 23 years in the House is enough. He also warned

:57:39.:57:44.

me he might be looking for a career in broadcasting. What happens to you

:57:45.:57:48.

next? I have no idea. One of your BBC colleagues has just invited me

:57:49.:57:52.

to come and take over your job, so I will look all forward to doing that.

:57:53.:57:56.

And a new political arrival has already sparked controversy. Debate

:57:57.:57:59.

is raging over whether the baby of Chippenham MP Duncan Hanes and

:58:00.:58:02.

Government minister Jo Swinson should be allowed in the voting

:58:03.:58:03.

chamber. So much to talk about it. Is it the

:58:04.:58:17.

right time for Don to hang up his hat? It is clearly a time when Don

:58:18.:58:23.

thinks it is the right time. Is he getting out while the years ahead?

:58:24.:58:28.

He is getting out while he has had a good run. He has had a fantastic

:58:29.:58:34.

time as the MP for Bath and Diaz had a crack at getting things right as a

:58:35.:58:39.

minister. Now he is my Chief Whip. He is a man with a sense of humour.

:58:40.:58:43.

Got to do what you're told? I would not go that far. Let's talk about

:58:44.:58:51.

babies. This idea about having your baby in your arms in the houses of

:58:52.:58:56.

commons. `` House of Commons. Should this be allowed? It is great that as

:58:57.:59:03.

a society, we have got a lot of moderate setting `` a lot more

:59:04.:59:08.

accenting of women having babies with them in all sorts of

:59:09.:59:12.

environments. Equally, the House of Commons is a particularly bizarre

:59:13.:59:16.

work lace and does not keep normal hours. It is almost inevitable. .

:59:17.:59:25.

What you think, Tessa? Should babies be welcome? We have to have some

:59:26.:59:33.

common sense. At 10pm on Monday night whenever we go through the

:59:34.:59:37.

voting lobby, which is not on the television and completely out of

:59:38.:59:42.

your the public, I do not think I would get excited if they chose to

:59:43.:59:45.

walk through the lobby with her baby. Taking children into the

:59:46.:59:51.

chamber, completely not. I would not have taken a child to work. I was a

:59:52.:59:56.

teacher. I never took my children into the classroom. I think

:59:57.:00:02.

moderation in all things, but let's be practical. Babies are very

:00:03.:00:08.

welcome here. Thank you. That's all we have time for this

:00:09.:00:12.

week. Thank you to our guests. If you want to see more on the

:00:13.:00:15.

flooding, tune into a special report tomorrow night on BBC One. This

:00:16.:00:20.

programme is available again on their BBC iPlayer. Now back

:00:21.:00:22.

will not be revoked. And I wouldn't want it to go. Thank you, back to

:00:23.:00:33.

Andrew. Can David Cameron get his way on EU

:00:34.:00:39.

migration? Will he ever be able to satisfy his backbenchers on Europe?

:00:40.:00:43.

Is Ed Miliband trying to change the tone of PMQ 's? More questions for

:00:44.:00:53.

the week ahead. We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg

:00:54.:00:57.

from his constituency in Somerset. Welcome to the programme. You one of

:00:58.:01:02.

the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed this letter? Suddenly. Laws should

:01:03.:01:09.

be made by our democratically elected representatives, not from

:01:10.:01:17.

Brussels. How could Europe work with a pick and mix in which each

:01:18.:01:25.

national parliament can decide what Brussels can be in charge of? The

:01:26.:01:31.

European Union is a supernatural body that is there for the

:01:32.:01:34.

cooperation amongst member states to do things that they jointly want to

:01:35.:01:41.

do. It ought not be there to force -- to enforce uniform rules on

:01:42.:01:44.

countries that do not want to participate. It is the vision of

:01:45.:01:47.

Europe that people joined when we signed up to it and came in in 973.

:01:48.:01:53.

It has accreted powers to itself without having the support of the

:01:54.:01:58.

public of the member states. This is just a way of preparing the ground

:01:59.:02:02.

for you to get out of Europe altogether, isn't it? I do not big

:02:03.:02:07.

so. There is a role for an organisation that does some

:02:08.:02:12.

coordination and that has trade agreements within it, I do not think

:02:13.:02:17.

there is a role for a federal state. Europe seems to be dominating the. I

:02:18.:02:21.

remember your leader telling you not to bang on about Europe, your

:02:22.:02:26.

backbench colleagues seem to have ignored that. Would you like to

:02:27.:02:31.

restrict the flow of EU migrants to come to work in this country? Yes. I

:02:32.:02:38.

think we should have control of our own borders, so we can decide who we

:02:39.:02:43.

want to admit for the whole world. What we have at the moment is a

:02:44.:02:46.

restrictive control of people coming from anywhere other than the EU

:02:47.:02:52.

There is a big decrease in the number of New Zealanders who came in

:02:53.:02:57.

the last quarter for which figures are available, but a huge increase

:02:58.:03:01.

in people coming from the continent. Does it really make sense to stop

:03:02.:03:05.

our second cousins coming so that we can allow people freely to come from

:03:06.:03:09.

the continent? I do not think so, we need to have domestic control of our

:03:10.:03:14.

borders in the interests of the United Kingdom. There are still lots

:03:15.:03:18.

more people coming from the rest of the world than from the European

:03:19.:03:23.

Union. That has been changing. But there are still more. A lot more.

:03:24.:03:30.

The permanent residence coming from the European Union are extremely

:03:31.:03:36.

high. In the period when the Labour Party was in charge, we had to put 5

:03:37.:03:40.

million people coming here, of whom about 1 billion were from Poland. --

:03:41.:03:45.

we had 2.5 million people coming here. We have no control over them.

:03:46.:03:53.

Like the clock behind you, you are behind the times on these figures. I

:03:54.:03:58.

have stopped the clock for your benefit, because it was going to

:03:59.:04:01.

chime otherwise! I thought that might be distracting! Only a Tory

:04:02.:04:09.

backbencher could stop a clock! Helen, when you at this up, it is

:04:10.:04:20.

preparing to get out, is it not We have had this one bill about a

:04:21.:04:22.

referendum that seems to have tied us up in knots for months on end. If

:04:23.:04:28.

Parliament could scrutinise every piece of EU legislation, we would

:04:29.:04:34.

never get anything else done. It would be incredible. Even Chris

:04:35.:04:39.

Grayling said earlier that you can not have a national veto on anything

:04:40.:04:46.

that the EU proposes. I am surprised that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking

:04:47.:04:49.

about dismantling one of Margaret Thatcher's most important legacies,

:04:50.:04:54.

the creation of the single market, and the person sent there to dream

:04:55.:04:59.

it up under Margaret Thatcher said the only way you can run this

:05:00.:05:03.

sensibly is by not having national vetoes, because if you have that,

:05:04.:05:07.

guess what will happen? The French will impose lots of protectionist

:05:08.:05:12.

measures. It was Margaret Thatcher's idea that national

:05:13.:05:14.

parliaments should never veto. How could you fly in the face of the

:05:15.:05:22.

lady? Even the great lady makes mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg

:05:23.:05:30.

says even Margaret Thatcher makes mistakes! No wonder the clock has

:05:31.:05:36.

stopped! Even be near divine Margaret made a mistake! But on the

:05:37.:05:42.

single market, it has been used as an excuse for massive origination of

:05:43.:05:48.

domestic affairs. We should be interested in free trade in Europe

:05:49.:05:51.

and allowing people to export and import freely, not to have uniform

:05:52.:05:56.

regulations, as per the single market, because what that allows is

:05:57.:06:02.

thought unelected bureaucrats to determine the regular vision. We

:06:03.:06:04.

want the British people to decide the rules for themselves. If this

:06:05.:06:09.

makes the single market not work, that is not the problem, because we

:06:10.:06:13.

can still have free trade, which is more important. If David Cameron is

:06:14.:06:19.

watching this, I am sure he is, it will be nice for you to come on and

:06:20.:06:26.

give us an interview, he must be worried. He is beginning to think, I

:06:27.:06:32.

am losing control. It is a clever letter, the tone is ingratiating and

:06:33.:06:38.

pleasant, every time, you have stood up to Brussels, you have achieved

:06:39.:06:41.

something, but the content is dramatic. If you want Parliament to

:06:42.:06:47.

have a veto, you want to leave the EU, because the definition is

:06:48.:06:50.

accepting the primacy of European law. The MPs should be clear about

:06:51.:06:55.

that. It is almost a year since the Europe speech in which David Cameron

:06:56.:06:59.

committed to the referendum. The political objective was to put that

:07:00.:07:04.

issue to bed until the next election. It has failed. David

:07:05.:07:09.

Cameron is going to have to pull off a major miracle in any

:07:10.:07:13.

renegotiations to satisfy all of this. Yes, it makes me think how

:07:14.:07:21.

much luckier he has been in coalition with the Liberal

:07:22.:07:24.

Democrats, because there is a bit of the Tory party that is

:07:25.:07:27.

irreconcilable to what he wants to do. The Conservative MPs are making

:07:28.:07:32.

these demands just as David Cameron is seeing the debate goes his way in

:07:33.:07:37.

Europe. Angela Merkel has looked over the cliff and said, do I want

:07:38.:07:42.

the UK out? No, they are a counterbalance to France. France one

:07:43.:07:48.

the UK to leave, but they do not, because they do not want to lose the

:07:49.:07:52.

only realistic military power Tom other than themselves. Just when the

:07:53.:07:56.

debate is going David Cameron's way, Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out.

:07:57.:08:04.

Let me move on to another subject. That is nonsense. The debate is not

:08:05.:08:09.

beginning to go David Cameron's way. We are having before us on Monday a

:08:10.:08:14.

bill about European citizenship and spending British taxpayers money so

:08:15.:08:20.

that Europe can go and say we are all EU citizens, but we signed up to

:08:21.:08:23.

being a part of a multinational organisation. The spin that it is

:08:24.:08:29.

going the way of the leader of a political party is one that has been

:08:30.:08:33.

used before, it was said of John Major, it was untrue then and it is

:08:34.:08:39.

now. It is, for the continuing deeper integration of the European

:08:40.:08:44.

Union. I want to ask a quick question. Chris Grayling said to us

:08:45.:08:51.

that the Tories would devise a way in which the British Supreme Court

:08:52.:08:56.

would be supreme in the proper meaning of that, but we could still

:08:57.:08:59.

be within the European Court of Human Rights. Can that circle be

:09:00.:09:06.

squared? I have no idea, the Lord Chancellor is an able man, and I am

:09:07.:09:12.

sure he is good at squaring circles. I am not worried about whether we

:09:13.:09:18.

remain in the convention or not PMQ 's, we saw a bit about this week,

:09:19.:09:25.

Paul Gorgons had died, so the house was more subdued, but he wants a

:09:26.:09:32.

more subdued and serious prime ministers questions. Let's remind

:09:33.:09:34.

ourselves what it was like until now.

:09:35.:09:40.

What is clear is that he is floundering around and he has no

:09:41.:09:43.

answer to the Labour Party's energy price freeze. The difference is

:09:44.:09:50.

John Major is a good man, the Right Honourable gentleman is acting like

:09:51.:09:54.

a conman. Across the medical profession, they say there is a

:09:55.:09:59.

crisis in accident and emergency, and we have a Prime Minister saying,

:10:00.:10:04.

crisis, what crisis? How out of touch can hate the? You do not need

:10:05.:10:08.

it to be Christmas to know when you are sitting next to a turkey.

:10:09.:10:18.

It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband trying to change the tone of prime

:10:19.:10:21.

ministers questions? Is he right to do so? The important point is this

:10:22.:10:26.

was a special prime ministers questions, because everybody was

:10:27.:10:32.

really sad and by the death of Paul Goggins and in the country, the

:10:33.:10:36.

legacy of the floods. That was the first question that Ed Miliband

:10:37.:10:39.

asked about, so that cast a pall over proceedings. When it suits him,

:10:40.:10:45.

Ed Miliband would like to take a more statesman-like stance, but will

:10:46.:10:49.

it last? That is how David Cameron started. His first prime ministers

:10:50.:10:54.

questions, he said to Tony Blair, I would like to support you on

:10:55.:10:58.

education, and he did in a vote which meant Tony Blair could see off

:10:59.:11:03.

a naughty operation from Gordon Brown. But it did not last, they are

:11:04.:11:10.

parties with different visions. Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to

:11:11.:11:15.

see it more subdued? I like a bit of Punch and Judy. You need to have

:11:16.:11:20.

fierce debate and people putting their views passionately, it is

:11:21.:11:25.

excellent. I am not good at it, I sit there quite quietly, but it is

:11:26.:11:30.

great fun, very exciting, and it is the most watched bit of the House of

:11:31.:11:36.

Commons each week. If it got as dull as ditchwater, nobody would pay

:11:37.:11:39.

attention. Three cheers for Punch and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to

:11:40.:11:45.

make a major speech on the economy this week. You can now define the

:11:46.:11:51.

general approach. We had it from Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over

:11:52.:11:56.

energy prices, this market is bust, the market is not working properly,

:11:57.:12:02.

and that will therefore justify substantial government intervention.

:12:03.:12:06.

Intervention which does not necessarily cost money. It is the

:12:07.:12:11.

deletion and reorganising industries. It constitutes an answer

:12:12.:12:14.

to the question which has been hounding him, what is the point of

:12:15.:12:17.

the Labour Party when there is no money left? He says, you do not

:12:18.:12:21.

spend a huge amount fiscally, but you arrange markets to achieve

:12:22.:12:26.

socially just outcomes without expenditure. It is quite serious

:12:27.:12:32.

stance. I am not sure it will survive the rigours of an election

:12:33.:12:37.

campaign, but it is an answer. Is that an approach, to use broken

:12:38.:12:41.

markets, to justify substantial state intervention? Yes, and the

:12:42.:12:47.

other big plank is infrastructure spending. The Lib Dems would not be

:12:48.:12:50.

against capital investment for info structure will stop Emma Reynolds

:12:51.:12:56.

talking about house-building, the idea of pumping money into the

:12:57.:12:59.

economy through infrastructure is something that the Labour Party will

:13:00.:13:04.

look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once thought Somerset should have its own

:13:05.:13:10.

time zone, and today, you have delivered on that promise! Live on

:13:11.:13:16.

the Sunday Politics! I try to deliver on my promises!

:13:17.:13:22.

That is all for today, the Daily Politics is on BBC Two every day

:13:23.:13:26.

this week, just before lunch. I aren't back next Sunday here on BBC

:13:27.:13:33.

One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:34.:13:39.

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