08/06/2014 Sunday Politics West


08/06/2014

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news and debate, including an interview with Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.


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David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers

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over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

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And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.

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We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live

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Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

:00:58.:01:00.

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist

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But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?

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Here's to the quarter of a million votes.

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And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with

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a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.

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In the West: Fancy building your own homd?

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Attempts to double the numbdrs that do it themselves are falling short.

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We'll discuss why with the nation's favourite grand designer,

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Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?

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And with me our panel of top political journalists,

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who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

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and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme

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This morning's political news is dominated

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by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and

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The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior

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Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling

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The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of

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investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham

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where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken

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Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office

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was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.

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He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.

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In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,

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"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people

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Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the

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An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.

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Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's

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Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning

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this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.

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There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,

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which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.

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There will be discipline in the Government.

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The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.

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The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s

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put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.

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Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she

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has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael

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Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during

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13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an

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act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website

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and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of

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conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a

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leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a

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vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In

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the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.

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She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is

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interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse

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differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is

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tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.

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Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the

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politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is

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deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but

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replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in

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ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that

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ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the

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Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with

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Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick

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Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and

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criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the

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Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is

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fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What

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separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The

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view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic

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extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is

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criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour

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government introduced to do with the previous Labour government

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introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people

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and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous

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home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in

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the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has

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used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the

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swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed

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those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove

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would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech

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the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2 11

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when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists

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warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

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is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

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Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

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Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

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their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

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in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

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infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

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resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

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to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

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There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

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four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

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that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

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for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

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stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

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like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

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Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

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leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

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overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

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want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

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themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

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makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

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be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

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curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

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education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

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segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

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segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling

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Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

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equality between boys and girls and there is an unofficial policy of

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gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

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tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

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do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

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ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

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tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

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think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

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inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

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be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

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sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

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as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

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Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools

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were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They

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were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an

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academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within

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Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school

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standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we

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get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking

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to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme

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which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and

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fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a

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desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an

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increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr

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Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for

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gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in

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since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We

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note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected

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head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and

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what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about

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fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of

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schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You

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mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence

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for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group

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dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about

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schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in

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Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of

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multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic

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education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this

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morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,

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the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.

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In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools

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and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed

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this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and

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this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you

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fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get

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together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There

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are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city

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council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning

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have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in

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schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have

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a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for

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four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to

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account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils

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in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young

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people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do

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you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that

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Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was

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building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We

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have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard

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Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate

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about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,

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the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do

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to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must

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with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on

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stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the

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most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -

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from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described

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Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the

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problems of the next five years . But with the German Chancellor

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Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that

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Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7

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summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people

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running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change

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and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads

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of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what

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I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed

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in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering

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that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away

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from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.

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We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is

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a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.

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He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.

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And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin

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Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives

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and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.

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The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new

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Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out

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gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to

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have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a

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high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next

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three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the

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president of the European Council after the proposal of the European

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Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in

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the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr

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Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going

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to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us

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one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine

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Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have

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a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need

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radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave

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us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in

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public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks

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campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the

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European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent

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a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status

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quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?

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First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks

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against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man

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who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro

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group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the

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financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible

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financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who

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works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in

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Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government But

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we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of

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this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the

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winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs

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LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority

:20:10.:20:15.

in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It

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is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament

:20:22.:20:29.

has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by

:20:30.:20:32.

majority in the light of the European elections after

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consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a

:20:35.:20:38.

candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a

:20:39.:20:46.

majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the

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Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.

:20:50.:20:52.

I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European

:20:53.:20:58.

elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the

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elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats

:21:03.:21:05.

in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking

:21:06.:21:10.

part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the

:21:11.:21:12.

United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German

:21:13.:21:17.

socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a

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nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with

:21:25.:21:28.

hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a

:21:29.:21:31.

democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to

:21:32.:21:33.

take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if

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I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of

:21:52.:21:55.

the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to

:21:56.:22:04.

Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives

:22:05.:22:07.

have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they

:22:08.:22:11.

have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form

:22:12.:22:16.

of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr

:22:17.:22:22.

Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU

:22:23.:22:26.

exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we

:22:27.:22:32.

want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious

:22:33.:22:35.

reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to

:22:36.:22:40.

vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,

:22:41.:22:46.

somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We

:22:47.:22:52.

need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the

:22:53.:22:55.

European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of

:22:56.:22:57.

federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in

:22:58.:23:02.

Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to

:23:03.:23:08.

take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the

:23:09.:23:13.

publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.

:23:14.:23:19.

We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If

:23:20.:23:26.

enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in

:23:27.:23:29.

the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,

:23:30.:23:37.

would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected

:23:38.:23:41.

by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the

:23:42.:23:45.

European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted

:23:46.:23:49.

pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist

:23:50.:23:53.

thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe

:23:54.:24:05.

which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not

:24:06.:24:10.

want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state

:24:11.:24:15.

This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better

:24:16.:24:18.

governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to

:24:19.:24:23.

become better, to change our programme in that question. That

:24:24.:24:27.

should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for

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that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to

:24:36.:24:37.

be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are

:24:38.:24:43.

matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent

:24:44.:24:48.

candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British

:24:49.:24:57.

commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election

:24:58.:25:01.

-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.

:25:02.:25:06.

Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European

:25:07.:25:09.

They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs

:25:10.:25:16.

and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.

:25:17.:25:19.

What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body

:25:20.:25:21.

which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission

:25:22.:25:24.

This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They

:25:25.:25:37.

didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes

:25:38.:25:44.

They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once

:25:45.:25:47.

in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,

:25:48.:26:06.

drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they

:26:07.:26:14.

are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the

:26:15.:26:18.

party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and

:26:19.:26:23.

the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting

:26:24.:26:29.

such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election

:26:30.:26:32.

under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was

:26:33.:26:38.

invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.

:26:39.:26:45.

When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most

:26:46.:26:50.

seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated

:26:51.:26:53.

using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --

:26:54.:27:02.

first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and

:27:03.:27:07.

London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,

:27:08.:27:12.

if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant

:27:13.:27:15.

to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to

:27:16.:27:20.

UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would

:27:21.:27:27.

have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by

:27:28.:27:30.

mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to

:27:31.:27:38.

experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of

:27:39.:27:42.

1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This

:27:43.:27:48.

man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and

:27:49.:27:51.

polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat

:27:52.:27:57.

candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards

:27:58.:28:04.

realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little

:28:05.:28:08.

Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do -

:28:09.:28:15.

bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.

:28:16.:28:23.

Mr Sanders got some consolation In 1998, laws came into rule on

:28:24.:28:31.

so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was

:28:32.:28:34.

established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh

:28:35.:28:36.

floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to

:28:37.:28:40.

voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the

:28:41.:28:43.

conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name

:28:44.:28:47.

of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those

:28:48.:28:53.

registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our

:28:54.:28:58.

opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on

:28:59.:29:01.

the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,

:29:02.:29:08.

were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need

:29:09.:29:13.

to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An

:29:14.:29:18.

independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved

:29:19.:29:22.

in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the

:29:23.:29:27.

description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word

:29:28.:29:32.

independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in

:29:33.:29:38.

1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again

:29:39.:29:41.

at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the

:29:42.:29:48.

major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking

:29:49.:29:49.

votes of them. Joining me now to discuss

:29:50.:29:59.

this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the

:30:00.:30:02.

South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is

:30:03.:30:05.

the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that

:30:06.:30:21.

were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to

:30:22.:30:26.

tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the

:30:27.:30:31.

breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats

:30:32.:30:39.

that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

:30:40.:30:46.

You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

:30:47.:30:49.

You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those

:30:50.:30:53.

with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there

:30:54.:30:59.

is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people

:31:00.:31:05.

who had voted at the top and the bottom, most people are not anoraks,

:31:06.:31:12.

they say, they are the people I want. They know what they are after.

:31:13.:31:26.

I think it is at least told. It is said you owe your seat to And

:31:27.:31:34.

Independence Party. It is strange for a man to say he could represent

:31:35.:31:39.

people in the south-west better than me. There has been outpouring of

:31:40.:31:45.

delight that a Green MP has finally been elected. A number of people

:31:46.:31:52.

have been saying they have been voting all their lives and it is the

:31:53.:31:55.

first time they have elected anybody. I am glad to represent them

:31:56.:32:01.

in a significant legislature. What would you say to that? I find it

:32:02.:32:07.

strange. I am perfectly happy for her to be elected. I feel the

:32:08.:32:14.

electoral commission has questions to answer. But, congratulations to

:32:15.:32:21.

Molly. Why do you want an extra seat for the Greens in the European

:32:22.:32:24.

Parliament but your national share of the vote actually fell. We did

:32:25.:32:31.

come under pressure nationally. If he is complaining about the role the

:32:32.:32:35.

election commission said we could stand, the rule we were not happy

:32:36.:32:40.

with was the off, ruling which said we were not a main party. We got

:32:41.:32:44.

significantly less media time and that is why our belt actually fell.

:32:45.:32:52.

Not on the Daily Politics or the Sunday Politics, where you were well

:32:53.:33:00.

represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?

:33:01.:33:08.

Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.

:33:09.:33:21.

I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had

:33:22.:33:24.

getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they

:33:25.:33:30.

voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.

:33:31.:33:35.

What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would

:33:36.:33:42.

agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral

:33:43.:33:47.

Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not

:33:48.:33:51.

confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to

:33:52.:33:58.

agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes

:33:59.:34:02.

and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the

:34:03.:34:07.

south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats

:34:08.:34:11.

into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats. For them, the

:34:12.:34:17.

system worked very well in the south-west. Nationally, Greens did

:34:18.:34:23.

not get represented as the vote share would require. That is because

:34:24.:34:28.

you get very small number of seats in the different regions and you

:34:29.:34:32.

have to reach a high threshold. The Green Party has a right to complain

:34:33.:34:36.

about the level of seats we have ended up with. White rapper you have

:34:37.:34:39.

complaints about the Electoral Commission? We need to move to a

:34:40.:34:46.

proportional system for elections generally. If we poll around 7% 8%,

:34:47.:34:53.

we should be looking at having 0, 40 seats in the national

:34:54.:34:58.

legislature. We need to consider proportional representation for

:34:59.:35:00.

national elections. Do you accept the ballot paper may have confused

:35:01.:35:06.

some people? I think what happened is that some people in UKIP were

:35:07.:35:11.

very worried. Worried about the rightward move of UKIP and the

:35:12.:35:16.

authoritarian leadership of Nigel Farage. He set up a separate party.

:35:17.:35:22.

That is what happens in politics, particularly when parties are led by

:35:23.:35:29.

demagogues and are not focused on Democratic policy. Do you have any

:35:30.:35:37.

legal redress to this? None whatsoever. Have you had legal

:35:38.:35:45.

advice? I am told there is no redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly

:35:46.:35:50.

does not agree with UKIP on anything so, if we say the sun rises in the

:35:51.:35:55.

morning, she probably will disagree with that. If, at the next election,

:35:56.:36:02.

there is a party called the Grown Party, will she then complain? There

:36:03.:36:10.

needs to be some level of accountability and, without that,

:36:11.:36:16.

one wonders what is going on. We have an organisation with enormous

:36:17.:36:19.

and important power and influence which is setup to stop this of thing

:36:20.:36:26.

going on. It has failed. Not has it has failed. Not present served in

:36:27.:36:30.

Tower Hamlets and there have been massive problems with postal votes.

:36:31.:36:34.

It is failing on almost everything it is supposed to do. Just to go

:36:35.:36:41.

back for a final point from Molly. Should there be a right of appeal to

:36:42.:36:45.

the rulings of the Electoral Commission? You need to have an

:36:46.:36:48.

authoritative body that makes decisions in this area and we have

:36:49.:36:53.

the Electoral Commission. It is about being sore losers on the part

:36:54.:36:59.

of UKIP. I am delighted to represent people in the South West. Should

:37:00.:37:05.

there be a right of appeal or not? You need an authoritative body and

:37:06.:37:08.

the Electoral Commission is that. I do not think it should have a right

:37:09.:37:09.

to appeal. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:10.:37:12.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:37:13.:37:17.

we'll be discussing extremism Welcome to the part of the show just

:37:18.:37:31.

for us here in the West Country Coming up, we'll be talking

:37:32.:37:36.

about building a dream home with The Government is urging more

:37:37.:37:39.

of us to reach for the hammdr and drill as it tries to tackle

:37:40.:37:44.

the housing shortage. But new figures suggest we `re much

:37:45.:37:46.

happier watching others havd a go Here to talk bricks and mortar

:37:47.:37:50.

and more besides is the Labour leader for Bristol City

:37:51.:37:55.

Council, Helen Holland. We're also joined by the

:37:56.:37:58.

Liberal Democrat, Steve Bradley Steve, this week, the Queen reopened

:37:59.:38:02.

Parliament and we heard somd Is the Coalition actually scraping

:38:03.:38:05.

the bottom of the barrel? This is something which Nick Clegg

:38:06.:38:12.

first announced in September 20 2, it is a real environmental coup for

:38:13.:38:17.

this government, for the Liberal Democrats

:38:18.:38:19.

in government. 7 billion plastic bags are tsed

:38:20.:38:21.

in this country every year. A huge waste of resources,

:38:22.:38:24.

found in every side road It is surprising that it is

:38:25.:38:30.

at the top of the agenda. It is not at the top of the agenda,

:38:31.:38:35.

it is on the agenda. I'm pleased with the

:38:36.:38:39.

Liberal Democrats in Governlent What did you make of

:38:40.:38:41.

the Queen's speech? Most people watching it would not

:38:42.:38:45.

think that a lot of the things that

:38:46.:38:49.

they are concerned about ` the house prices

:38:50.:38:51.

we will talk about later, there is nothing there

:38:52.:38:53.

to address those things. Although I am supportive

:38:54.:38:57.

of the plastic bag issue, it is just Do you think people will

:38:58.:39:01.

mind forking out 5p? They might mind

:39:02.:39:07.

but the experience is that ht works. That is good news for the fhnanciers

:39:08.:39:13.

handing out ever`bigger homd loans. Bad news for many,

:39:14.:39:19.

especially those of us tried get The situation is especially

:39:20.:39:22.

chronic here in the West. The supply of homes is completely

:39:23.:39:27.

outstripped by demand. A one`bedroom flat with two

:39:28.:39:30.

occupants, soon to be three. Becky and James are having

:39:31.:39:37.

a baby, so need something bhgger. First`time buyers with decent jobs,

:39:38.:39:42.

they wanted a two`bed terrace I suppose we were shocked.

:39:43.:39:44.

Very shocked! There have been some

:39:45.:39:57.

stressful times. Emotional. Frustration that we felt we were

:39:58.:40:01.

in a decent position, Even humble houses go

:40:02.:40:09.

for more than they can afford. One mortgage provider reckons

:40:10.:40:14.

that in the last year prices Affordability is a big problem

:40:15.:40:17.

in the West. The average house prices ard already

:40:18.:40:22.

11 times greater than In Bath and North East Somerset

:40:23.:40:25.

and Dorset, it is worse, at 14, while the most unaffordable place is

:40:26.:40:31.

the Cotswolds, Every council

:40:32.:40:34.

in the West is worried. In Bath, they are finalising

:40:35.:40:39.

a long`term plan, setting ott Nobody wants a shortage of houses

:40:40.:40:42.

but the area that we have in Bath, bearing in mind Bath is one

:40:43.:40:52.

of the only World Heritage cities available, we also have the

:40:53.:40:56.

Cotswolds area of natural bdauty surrounding us, plus the Mendip area

:40:57.:41:00.

of outstanding natural beauty. We have very little

:41:01.:41:03.

developable land available. At the same time as news cale

:41:04.:41:06.

through the latest leap in property prices, European Commission weighed

:41:07.:41:10.

in with its annual report of It recommended the Government

:41:11.:41:13.

build more houses, reform council tax to raise more

:41:14.:41:18.

money from wealthy households and to That has helped the Bond falily

:41:19.:41:22.

of Taunton. They would otherwise have struggled

:41:23.:41:31.

to raise a big enough deposht We have two is children

:41:32.:41:34.

and we are looking for somewhere that we can grow into,

:41:35.:41:38.

a village location that meant we We found that house that ticked all

:41:39.:41:42.

those boxes and I would defhnitely say at this point we would not

:41:43.:41:50.

have been able to move into it There are worries it is helping to

:41:51.:42:02.

push up prices, which incre`ses That has brought this warning

:42:03.:42:07.

from the former head of This has been an imbalance hn the UK

:42:08.:42:12.

for many years. After the crisis in 2009, 2010,

:42:13.:42:16.

across the whole of the polhtical spectrum, there was a lot of talk

:42:17.:42:19.

about how we needed a more balanced economy, that wasn't dependdnt

:42:20.:42:23.

on a credit fuelled propertx boom. It is clear that we're getthng back

:42:24.:42:25.

to growth but at the core of that is Back in Bristol, Becky and James

:42:26.:42:30.

cannot get more credit so We have had to make some colpromises

:42:31.:42:34.

and go to a back`up plan. We're looking at instead

:42:35.:42:42.

of two`bedroom terrace housds with a garden,

:42:43.:42:46.

perhaps looking for a two`bddroom So soaring house prices mean leaving

:42:47.:42:48.

the area they love before I'm delighted to say we are joined

:42:49.:42:57.

by Kevin McCloud, who is a developer of sustahnable

:42:58.:43:03.

housing when he's not presenting Is the housing market

:43:04.:43:06.

spiralling out of control? Mark Carney of the Bank

:43:07.:43:14.

of England thinks it is. He thinks the next recession we re

:43:15.:43:17.

going to have will result again He lives in London, where the Bank

:43:18.:43:21.

of England is, and you see extraordinary things happenhng

:43:22.:43:26.

there. You see people from abroad buying,

:43:27.:43:28.

to keep not even to let, vast swathes of property, apartmdnts

:43:29.:43:32.

in the outlying suburbs of London They have risen about 10%

:43:33.:43:36.

in the last years against as If you go to the north`east, they

:43:37.:43:43.

have dropped by 7% in Middldsbrough. There is nowhere to buy che`p

:43:44.:43:53.

property in the south`west, You take a national average,

:43:54.:43:56.

the south`west almost represents exactly the national averagd, price,

:43:57.:44:01.

growth rate and so on. There was a report that said

:44:02.:44:04.

we need 300,000 homes The maximum we've built

:44:05.:44:13.

between then and now is 180,000 In this tiny country,

:44:14.:44:19.

which is now the most densely with a very strong planning regime,

:44:20.:44:24.

historically, and strong pl`nning But we ought to be looking, I

:44:25.:44:28.

believe and in our business we try hard to find sites which ard within

:44:29.:44:40.

towns and cities, because otr towns and cities of low density and could

:44:41.:44:45.

do with a lot more identification. We need to be looking at wh`t

:44:46.:44:49.

our village extensions should be. Where I live, near Frome,

:44:50.:44:53.

there are two local villages who are expecting to double in size

:44:54.:44:57.

in the next two years. Stephen, really, there are not

:44:58.:45:00.

enough houses being built. So people cannot buy

:45:01.:45:05.

and they cannot rent, it is There has been a long`standhng

:45:06.:45:10.

problem without property market In 2010, house new starts wdre at

:45:11.:45:19.

the lowest level since the 0920s. We had an erosion of the social

:45:20.:45:27.

social rented sector, we lost Across only two years

:45:28.:45:30.

of Labour's time in power dhd we The different elements were not

:45:31.:45:34.

being tackled then, the Liberal Democrats in

:45:35.:45:43.

government We have new builds,

:45:44.:45:45.

new starts at the highest ldvel Under Labour, 13 years in

:45:46.:45:49.

government, you were building 1 000 At the same time,

:45:50.:45:56.

allowing mass immigration. You don't have to be Einstehn to

:45:57.:46:02.

work out there will not be dnough I think everyone in the Labour Party

:46:03.:46:06.

at knowledges that not enough was done during the time

:46:07.:46:11.

in Government. The House building at the moment is

:46:12.:46:15.

the lowest since the 1920s `nd yet we have got those kind of pressures

:46:16.:46:18.

that we saw in the film on families. If you spoke to any councillors

:46:19.:46:23.

in Bristol, they would hear from people all the

:46:24.:46:25.

time about the real impact, families who have to live separately because

:46:26.:46:29.

they are living with their parents There is always local opposhtion

:46:30.:46:32.

to building a house. Modern houses look so drearx

:46:33.:46:38.

and they are little boxes. We object to change because

:46:39.:46:43.

change is rubbish, it is ustally It would be wonderful

:46:44.:46:52.

if we could build houses whhch were inspiring places, we could lake

:46:53.:46:58.

communities which are reallx great. The legislation has

:46:59.:47:03.

not allowed them to. One of the things we have in Bristol

:47:04.:47:08.

and I know the mayor has looked at it is that there are 6,000

:47:09.:47:13.

planning permissions The Labour Shadow Cabinet is

:47:14.:47:15.

looking at saying, really, developers ought to use it or lose

:47:16.:47:22.

it. There ought to be some recolpense

:47:23.:47:25.

so that we can make sure th`t developers do build those

:47:26.:47:33.

properties. Do you think getting tough

:47:34.:47:37.

will work? What she's talking

:47:38.:47:39.

about using or use it, it is looking at something xou are

:47:40.:47:46.

looking at as a Coalition? I think we need to do

:47:47.:47:49.

is to tackle supply issues not just across the buying sector

:47:50.:47:53.

but the renting sector. The Coalition government ard

:47:54.:48:00.

working hard to do that. It is fantastic we have got Kevin

:48:01.:48:10.

here today. He was appointed by the Coalition

:48:11.:48:12.

government, he is a champion for enabling people to build under

:48:13.:48:17.

the right circumstances. You might think that with tdlevision

:48:18.:48:22.

shows like Kevin's never far from our screens, we would be

:48:23.:48:27.

enthusiastic The latest statistics show the

:48:28.:48:30.

Government It needs twice as many

:48:31.:48:36.

of us to pick up our tools. Is your current home looking

:48:37.:48:43.

a little shabby? Or perhaps you want to wash

:48:44.:48:46.

your hands of that avocado suite. Well, the Government wants those

:48:47.:48:55.

thinking of moving to be inspired Tired of conventional homes, and

:48:56.:48:58.

with next to no DIY experience, he I had the choice of

:48:59.:49:04.

either buying a city centre flat This is a lot more interesthng

:49:05.:49:13.

and challenging and more rewarding It is taken two years in

:49:14.:49:18.

spite of holding down a full`time It is en vogue in France

:49:19.:49:25.

and Germany, where 50% But here, it seems,

:49:26.:49:32.

it is just not our cup of tda. The idea about building

:49:33.:49:37.

your own home, I think, is hgnited But the hurdles for it to h`ppen,

:49:38.:49:40.

I think, one, two or five years

:49:41.:49:46.

down the line, are then going out

:49:47.:49:56.

and buying an existing housd because land has not become available

:49:57.:49:59.

for them to do the project. Back when the Coalition was formed,

:50:00.:50:01.

the Government promised to double the number of self build holes being

:50:02.:50:05.

built within a decade. The number was just over 10,000

:50:06.:50:07.

in that year. However, last year, that figure

:50:08.:50:13.

had slumped to just over 8,000. So the self`build Revolution is

:50:14.:50:17.

yet to really raise the roof. Add this self build advice centre

:50:18.:50:23.

in Swindon, we hear many thdories I don't think

:50:24.:50:26.

the message has even begun xet. I still think that first`tile buyers

:50:27.:50:33.

and first`time movers have no concept that self build could be

:50:34.:50:37.

a solution for them. Self build could make housing much

:50:38.:50:41.

more affordable at those two crucial levels,

:50:42.:50:46.

first`time buyers, first`tile Because self build enables people to

:50:47.:50:48.

make a financial gain in thd value of their property instantly, as

:50:49.:51:01.

a reward for the effort thex put in. Communities of self build homes

:51:02.:51:05.

like this one in Bristol, The Government is now targeting

:51:06.:51:08.

its efforts on a halfway hotse. ?150 million has been found

:51:09.:51:12.

for custom`built homes, that is where you choose yotr home

:51:13.:51:16.

from a developer's catalogud But the lack of land remain is

:51:17.:51:19.

a fundamental problem. So we are certainly challenging

:51:20.:51:25.

everyone in the public sector to look at their land holdings

:51:26.:51:28.

and see what can be made av`ilable both for affordable housing and for

:51:29.:51:31.

customised and self build as well. We are thinking

:51:32.:51:35.

about introducing something which exists on the continent where

:51:36.:51:39.

a resident is able to say to the local authority, "I want to build

:51:40.:51:43.

my own home, but I need the land to At the moment,

:51:44.:51:47.

that doesn't exist in Britahn. But Labour says that

:51:48.:51:52.

doesn't go far enough. It would force land banking

:51:53.:51:55.

developers to use Politicians of all colours seem to

:51:56.:51:57.

be falling over themselves to appeal Hoping they, like Adam here,

:51:58.:52:03.

build homes to help ease But, for the time being, most

:52:04.:52:08.

of us seem quite content to watch stories like this one on fold in

:52:09.:52:13.

the comfort of our own armchairs. I wouldn't know where to st`rt

:52:14.:52:20.

building my own home and I think a lot of my fellow citizens fdel the

:52:21.:52:25.

same. There are around 4 million people

:52:26.:52:27.

in the UK who want to build their That is a huge number,

:52:28.:52:35.

that is a massive... They are not doing it because

:52:36.:52:39.

of many issues, land is a bhg one, the availability of land,

:52:40.:52:44.

or people sitting on their land The homes and communities

:52:45.:52:47.

agency, the Government arm for the disposal of government land

:52:48.:52:57.

has been instructed to sell land to make it available for self build

:52:58.:53:00.

and yet not much has happendd. Local authorities have been mandated

:53:01.:53:03.

in the National Planning Policy Framework to get out there

:53:04.:53:06.

and survey every community in the UK to find out who w`nts

:53:07.:53:09.

a self`build property. The trouble is,

:53:10.:53:11.

we watch your programme, which we absolutely love, btt every

:53:12.:53:15.

week it is a drama, isn't it? The build goes wrong,

:53:16.:53:18.

the architect is ridiculous. All these odd people

:53:19.:53:21.

and it is always, It's storytelling on television

:53:22.:53:25.

come on! In real life, the process c`n be

:53:26.:53:29.

de`risked, it can be de`strdssed. For heaven's sake, right now

:53:30.:53:33.

in Bristol, a self build agency are

:53:34.:53:35.

organising with ex`servicemdn, many of whom have been

:53:36.:53:37.

on the streets, without a home, who It is a process

:53:38.:53:41.

which can be really empowerhng, it can be enjoyable and if you hand's

:53:42.:53:52.

held with the developer and a good But you could lose everything,

:53:53.:53:56.

couldn't you? If you're working with

:53:57.:53:59.

a conventional house`builder and you're going the custom`built route,

:54:00.:54:02.

which is the route that manx people do, as in the film, you end up with

:54:03.:54:05.

a contract, home that has bden built for you to your taste and your

:54:06.:54:10.

design, it is a really uniqte place. We will see it, it will takd

:54:11.:54:14.

a while, we will see change. In terms of the community sdlf build

:54:15.:54:18.

and the ex`servicemen project, I have been to the first ond and I

:54:19.:54:22.

was at the presentation last time. They are small numbers

:54:23.:54:27.

but they are very specific `bout the needs and those are, it is not

:54:28.:54:31.

just providing people with ` home or with an address, which actu`lly

:54:32.:54:35.

means that you can then participate the skills they learn

:54:36.:54:38.

while they are building the home. Should councils be

:54:39.:54:45.

forced to provide land? Say I want to build my own house,

:54:46.:54:47.

should I be able to go to the council and say,

:54:48.:54:51.

"Will you find me some land please?" One of the things the Coalition

:54:52.:54:54.

government is looking at is putting something into

:54:55.:54:57.

the national framework to insist on provision of sites for custom`built,

:54:58.:55:01.

I'd draw a distinction betwden The example in the video tape was

:55:02.:55:05.

of extreme DIY, the individtal Custom builders more

:55:06.:55:10.

about making the local... As Kevin alluded to, the holes and

:55:11.:55:13.

communities agency has been tasked We need to make sure within

:55:14.:55:19.

a Coalition government that they There is work that needs to be done

:55:20.:55:25.

around the availability of land We about to go into consult`tion as

:55:26.:55:30.

a government on the right to build, to look at whether we can, `s you

:55:31.:55:34.

suggested force councils to identify sites and say, "I want to btild

:55:35.:55:38.

a house that meets my needs and the "needs of my family

:55:39.:55:42.

and my community here," and we The localism act and everything

:55:43.:55:45.

about the National Planning Policy Framework tries to drive control

:55:46.:55:52.

back to communities. My business have been working

:55:53.:55:54.

in parts of Bristol, walking into communities and saying,

:55:55.:55:58.

"what do you want? And from that point,

:55:59.:56:00.

starting to try and figure out how developers and local authorhties

:56:01.:56:05.

might deliver what committeds want Just give us a ballpark figtre

:56:06.:56:08.

if someone wanted to custom build It is likely to cost slightly

:56:09.:56:13.

less than buying it on spec. But

:56:14.:56:19.

the thing is you get better value. You get a

:56:20.:56:21.

better built house, you get a Green home that will cost less to run you

:56:22.:56:24.

will end up with perhaps solething much more tailored, a much greater

:56:25.:56:28.

value in the end, because it is better built and it is disthnctive

:56:29.:56:31.

and something which will brhng you I think in discussion about numbers

:56:32.:56:35.

and planning, we forget the value They do this in Germany and France,

:56:36.:56:46.

do you think this is a Brithsh I think, to repeat the commdnt

:56:47.:56:51.

about it, I think for specific areas there is a self

:56:52.:56:56.

build scheme that has been there It is because they weren't big

:56:57.:56:59.

enough houses for bigger falilies and so a group of big familhes who

:57:00.:57:05.

were on the council waiting list got together, work with the housing

:57:06.:57:08.

association and build that scheme. On the continent, people rent until

:57:09.:57:11.

they are in a position to bty their There was a project of 4,000

:57:12.:57:16.

homes just outside of Amsterdam There are the building

:57:17.:57:23.

groups of Berlin, 10,000 people have got involved in those groups now and

:57:24.:57:28.

although each country operates under completely different regimes and

:57:29.:57:32.

circumstances, in this country we have the potential and alre`dy

:57:33.:57:34.

across this region and in places like Bicester, we're seeing projects

:57:35.:57:38.

coming forward for 200, 500 homes. Thank you.

:57:39.:57:44.

Great pleasure to meet you. We live in a world

:57:45.:57:53.

of sound bites and tweets, so we decided to condense the West's

:57:54.:58:06.

political news into 60 seconds. Health campaigners have cause

:58:07.:58:09.

to celebrate after attempts to part privatise a North Somerset

:58:10.:58:11.

hospital were scrapped. Private firms have put

:58:12.:58:16.

in bids to manage Western Gdneral but it was decided that another

:58:17.:58:19.

NHS Trust should be showed chosen to This illegal camp

:58:20.:58:22.

on green belt land near Bath will be replaced with a permanent home

:58:23.:58:29.

for Gypsies and Travellers. Councillors voted through

:58:30.:58:31.

controversial plans to set tp 1 permanent pitches at a cost

:58:32.:58:34.

of around ?2 million. Parents from south Gloucestdr

:58:35.:58:50.

have launched a legal challdnge against the ban on taking children

:58:51.:58:52.

out of school during term thme. The group, parents want a s`y,

:58:53.:58:55.

are angry at the school fires being h`nded out

:58:56.:58:58.

to parents who break the rules. And

:58:59.:59:01.

a Bristol boy made good camd back to Sajid Javid is now the

:59:02.:59:04.

Culture Secretary but he was brought up in more humble

:59:05.:59:07.

surroundings above his family's Helen, I am told that in

:59:08.:59:11.

a former life you were a te`cher. What do you think

:59:12.:59:21.

about finding parents for t`king Well, there is no doubt the place

:59:22.:59:25.

our children ought to be ushng school in term time but I think it

:59:26.:59:31.

is a blunt instrument, isn't it Parents who can afford very

:59:32.:59:34.

expensive holidays, it is no problem to then to add

:59:35.:59:36.

on the cost of the fine. Unfortunately,

:59:37.:59:40.

there are holiday firms who are offering to pay the cost

:59:41.:59:42.

of the fine, which cannot bd right. Would you encourage someone or say

:59:43.:59:45.

to someone, "All right, I think that the people who are best

:59:46.:59:56.

placed to decide what is right for their particular childrdn are

:59:57.:00:03.

generally the parents. Obviously, there will be extreme is

:00:04.:00:05.

where that may not be the case that I would agree that we

:00:06.:00:08.

should not have blunt instrtments. I want parents to make the sensible,

:00:09.:00:11.

responsible decisions that `re And that is just about it

:00:12.:00:14.

from our Bristol studio this week. You can always catch up with

:00:15.:00:20.

this part of the show again. my guests. That is it for the Sunday

:00:21.:00:22.

Politics in London. Back to Andrew. Is enough being done to

:00:23.:00:35.

tackle extremism in schools? Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker,

:00:36.:00:39.

will make we are joined by the founder of the

:00:40.:01:09.

Quilliam Association. If you read the Sunday Telegraph this morning,

:01:10.:01:13.

there is a real problem. If you read the Observer, there is not much of a

:01:14.:01:16.

problem. What is the situation in your view in Birmingham? Allegations

:01:17.:01:35.

are seen to be -- if music was not being taught as it should be.

:01:36.:01:39.

Instead of the rating the national holidays here during the Christmas

:01:40.:01:43.

period, children were sent off instead on religious pilgrimage to

:01:44.:01:46.

Mecca, then I think something is going on. From my knowledge, I know

:01:47.:01:54.

about some of the strategies to influence. These strategies are

:01:55.:02:02.

known as gradualism. The idea, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is

:02:03.:02:06.

to join the institutions of society and influence from within -- from

:02:07.:02:16.

within. It is a gradual approach to Islamicisation society. We have seen

:02:17.:02:19.

that happening in other areas, such as the decision by the Law Society

:02:20.:02:26.

to call it shy and issue it out as guidance for solicitors. They are

:02:27.:02:31.

saying this means that women inherit half of what men

:02:32.:02:40.

saying this means that women inherit and adopted children do not get any

:02:41.:02:41.

inheritance. Apostates do not get any inheritance. These are

:02:42.:02:41.

guidelines being issued by the Law Society by Islamic. It is a medieval

:02:42.:02:47.

take on Islam. That is what is meant. We see the same names popping

:02:48.:02:55.

up again and again in different situations in Birmingham. Is it a

:02:56.:03:03.

planned infiltration? In my profession of you and

:03:04.:03:05.

planned infiltration? In my profession of you having spent 3

:03:06.:03:07.

years on the leadership of an Islamist organisation, having been

:03:08.:03:08.

involved Islamist organisation, having been

:03:09.:03:21.

and setting up schools, I am very Islamist organisation, having been

:03:22.:03:21.

certain is a deliberate plan to influence the students of this

:03:22.:03:24.

country with a medieval interpretation of my own faith to

:03:25.:03:27.

bring about a medieval, conservative view, and enforce things like

:03:28.:03:32.

segregation on boys and girls within our public institutions. With these

:03:33.:03:37.

things be acceptable if they were explicitly they schools? If they

:03:38.:03:43.

were state. We had state Anglican faith schools. We have state

:03:44.:03:49.

Catholic faith schools as well. Would it be acceptable if these were

:03:50.:03:55.

state Islamic schools? That is a policy question. I am not generally

:03:56.:04:01.

in favour. I would believe in this establishment. I am not a fan of

:04:02.:04:07.

faith schools. I do think the solution is to ban them. I do think

:04:08.:04:12.

these schools should start working out with an engaging with the wider

:04:13.:04:16.

communities and not being insular and looking inwards. It is very

:04:17.:04:22.

important. The Ofsted report is coming out tomorrow. We have already

:04:23.:04:26.

had a taste about what it is saying about some of the schools. Is it a

:04:27.:04:32.

serious problem? It is a very serious problem. It comes from the

:04:33.:04:39.

segregation of children into intensely populated areas where

:04:40.:04:42.

everyone is Muslim virtually. You have to have a system of spreading

:04:43.:04:46.

children between schools. It very often happens, even with a secular

:04:47.:04:50.

school like this. Nearby Catholic or Church of England schools become

:04:51.:04:54.

like-for-like schools and that leaves the rest of the state schools

:04:55.:04:59.

to become all of one faith. I think all of the parties are being quite

:05:00.:05:03.

hypocritical about the profound problem of continuing to have faith

:05:04.:05:09.

schools. You have Orthodox Jewish schools with extraordinary dogma

:05:10.:05:12.

being taught. Indeed very strict Catholic schools with amazing dogma

:05:13.:05:17.

being taught. To somehow only get worried when it is Islamic, when it

:05:18.:05:21.

is Muslim schools, becomes a problem. You have to look at the

:05:22.:05:25.

whole issue and said the state should simply withdraw from the

:05:26.:05:29.

business of faith education. Like France? Yes, a secular school. The

:05:30.:05:44.

overall government policy is to take power away. The dilemma with that is

:05:45.:05:50.

that it comes with dangers. Some schools will be incompetent and some

:05:51.:05:53.

schools will be more than incompetent, they will be maligned

:05:54.:05:57.

in some respects. The one bit of this policy which has never been

:05:58.:06:02.

entirely squared is how do you devolve and retain a basic minimum

:06:03.:06:07.

of educational standards and behavioural standards while doing

:06:08.:06:10.

it? There is an even deeper quandary for Britain. We have prided

:06:11.:06:14.

ourselves on allowing radical views that stop short of violence. We took

:06:15.:06:18.

on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe would not have him. The rest of

:06:19.:06:23.

Europe could not believe how tolerably well of radical preachers

:06:24.:06:27.

in the 1990s. Do we stick with that view? The risks were greater than

:06:28.:06:34.

they were 100 years ago. We do expect, whatever peoples faith, that

:06:35.:06:39.

our children, at the expense of the taxpayer, are educated, not

:06:40.:06:43.

instructed, not indoctrinated, educated. We do expect that and also

:06:44.:06:48.

that boys and girls are treated equally. One of the things the board

:06:49.:06:52.

in Birmingham will be looking at which has Andrew Mitchell on it the

:06:53.:06:56.

former development Secretary, because he is a Birmingham MP full

:06:57.:06:59.

Sutton, they are really concerned about whether the girls are being

:07:00.:07:04.

treated as second-class citizens. There has been a lot of work done on

:07:05.:07:10.

empowerment of girls. Shirley Williams made the point that what

:07:11.:07:14.

Michael Gove has done by creating free schools and academies is

:07:15.:07:17.

undermined the work of local education authorities. They think

:07:18.:07:20.

they are traditional bodies which are not open to reform. One school

:07:21.:07:27.

in Birmingham which is accused of being in trouble is a local

:07:28.:07:35.

education school. They cannot have the other side. Under Michael Gove,

:07:36.:07:40.

they are answerable to the Secretary of State. It is down to Ofsted.

:07:41.:07:44.

Ofsted is giving the schools, not that long ago, outstanding marks.

:07:45.:07:49.

There are big questions about the oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt

:07:50.:07:53.

was trying to answer that point By tapping it cannot all have gone pear

:07:54.:07:57.

shaped in two years. How do you think that will play out? -- it

:07:58.:08:07.

cannot have gone pear shaped. The story was broken in February. It

:08:08.:08:11.

will keep playing out. The report that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow

:08:12.:08:16.

or Monday. Then there is the other report that will look into wider

:08:17.:08:20.

questions, that will come out in July, I think. We are expecting two

:08:21.:08:29.

points. -- reports. We have to look at questions of Ofsted and other

:08:30.:08:33.

institutions in our society, even government departments, where idea

:08:34.:08:37.

of taxing non-violent extremism became a too boot in this country.

:08:38.:08:46.

-- a taboo. They must be rebuffed the challenge, as we would expect

:08:47.:08:53.

racism to be challenged. In the argument between Michael Gove and

:08:54.:08:59.

Theresa May, where do you side? They should be challenged openly and

:09:00.:09:03.

robust leap by civilian society It was settled by the Prime Minister

:09:04.:09:07.

and is government policy. I had a hand in advising or consulting. I

:09:08.:09:16.

think Fiona Cunningham was forced to resign because what she did violates

:09:17.:09:25.

official government policy. It just has not been implemented yet. Will

:09:26.:09:45.

Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke? You'll agree he have to decide

:09:46.:09:48.

whether he will spirit at stopping him or accepting him as commission

:09:49.:09:53.

president and ask in return for a massive commission portfolio for

:09:54.:09:56.

Britain, something like the internal market, which they missed out on

:09:57.:10:00.

last time. It is a diplomatic decision he have to make. It is too

:10:01.:10:08.

late for that he is into deep. If he takes over the job, Cameron is left

:10:09.:10:14.

with egg on its face. From the beginning, he did not have his voice

:10:15.:10:21.

with the weight of the British Conservative Party, with ankle and

:10:22.:10:27.

Arkle, the rest of them. He is reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest

:10:28.:10:32.

of them. He is reaping that reward. There is a lot of support within

:10:33.:10:42.

Europe. In Germany, there was a lot of opposition to David Cameron

:10:43.:10:47.

getting his way. I know him from Brussels. He is entertaining, you go

:10:48.:10:51.

to dinner with him and he smokes and drinks. He is entertaining but he is

:10:52.:10:55.

the most awful person you could think of having trying to sort of

:10:56.:10:58.

symbolise a new European Union. I remember I was there join the

:10:59.:11:02.

Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when the voters in France and the

:11:03.:11:06.

Netherlands voted no to the European constitution, what was his response

:11:07.:11:11.

to that? Let's carry on with the ratification process of this treaty

:11:12.:11:19.

that has been comprehensively rejected by voters. He did not say

:11:20.:11:22.

the final bit of that sentence. You can see why Eurosceptics want him.

:11:23.:11:27.

He has blown a raspy at all the people who have protested at the

:11:28.:11:31.

elections with the way the European Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry.

:11:32.:11:45.

This is your most popular... What has come in most recently is doing

:11:46.:11:58.

really well. This is yours. There we go. Cheers! By our people so

:11:59.:12:09.

cynical? They always go for a drink at 11am and they pull their own

:12:10.:12:17.

pipes. I see them every day. -- pts. Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is

:12:18.:12:24.

to mark the idea is to define clearly a liberal brand, or at least

:12:25.:12:28.

I hope it is. It is not good enough for us to say the Liberal Democrats

:12:29.:12:32.

challenge the Tories on this, on the fairer society, and challenge the

:12:33.:12:36.

Labour Party on a strong economy. We need to define what we stand for.

:12:37.:12:40.

That is what I call a liberal brand, assertive liberalism. I have been

:12:41.:12:46.

there myself and I think that is what he will be speaking about.

:12:47.:12:52.

Standing up for liberal values, to finding -- defining what they are.

:12:53.:12:57.

Disestablishment in getting younger people re-engage with politics. The

:12:58.:13:00.

overwhelming number are actually liberal. We only have about 20

:13:01.:13:07.

seconds. I suggest to you it is too late. Sign up with the one principle

:13:08.:13:13.

on which he stood is Europe. -- the one principle on which he stood if

:13:14.:13:20.

Europe. That is why he has been doing so badly. He cannot get out of

:13:21.:13:27.

the hole he is in. If you fight three general elections to the left

:13:28.:13:29.

of Labour and on the third when you are in coalition with the Tories,

:13:30.:13:43.

you have got a problem. I will be back next week. Remember if it is

:13:44.:13:50.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. What's the hardest thing

:13:51.:14:19.

about being a foster parent? You're constantly trying

:14:20.:14:21.

to build the elusive trust. It's like a big old question mark

:14:22.:14:23.

in your heart. I just try and do the best I can

:14:24.:14:26.

for them while they're with me

:14:27.:14:30.

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