29/06/2014 Sunday Politics West


29/06/2014

With David Garmston. Andrew Neil is joined by Europe minister David Lidington, Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Lib Dem Charles Kennedy to discuss David Cameron's EU defeat.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 29/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.

:00:37.:00:47.

But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?

:00:48.:00:50.

Doctors want to ban smoking outright.

:00:51.:00:54.

A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all

:00:55.:00:56.

And goodbye to the man who loves the EU. So Graham Watson is givhng his

:00:57.:01:27.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

:01:28.:01:30.

panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

:01:31.:01:41.

They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in

:01:42.:01:44.

Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence

:01:45.:01:46.

He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made

:01:47.:01:49.

it big in the world of European politic.

:01:50.:01:51.

I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg

:01:52.:01:54.

He'll soon be President of the European Commission,

:01:55.:01:58.

He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.

:01:59.:02:04.

But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up

:02:05.:02:08.

on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.

:02:09.:02:23.

-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist

:02:24.:02:26.

So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes

:02:27.:02:28.

of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?

:02:29.:02:31.

Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington

:02:32.:02:36.

Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr

:02:37.:02:43.

Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got

:02:44.:02:46.

harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The

:02:47.:02:51.

majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts

:02:52.:02:56.

power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right

:02:57.:03:01.

cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European

:03:02.:03:08.

Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European

:03:09.:03:18.

countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of

:03:19.:03:21.

Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on

:03:22.:03:23.

how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the

:03:24.:03:26.

mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming

:03:27.:03:32.

European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The

:03:33.:03:36.

Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to

:03:37.:03:43.

integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.

:03:44.:03:49.

What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at

:03:50.:03:53.

different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new

:03:54.:04:01.

Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the

:04:02.:04:11.

approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime

:04:12.:04:16.

Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general

:04:17.:04:19.

acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to

:04:20.:04:25.

the single currency will want to press forward with closer

:04:26.:04:28.

integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country

:04:29.:04:33.

in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern

:04:34.:04:37.

that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with

:04:38.:04:41.

28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the

:04:42.:04:47.

extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and

:04:48.:04:52.

integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable

:04:53.:04:56.

geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is

:04:57.:05:00.

that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the

:05:01.:05:04.

slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which

:05:05.:05:09.

backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that

:05:10.:05:22.

there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to

:05:23.:05:26.

seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the

:05:27.:05:29.

election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the

:05:30.:05:33.

British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the

:05:34.:05:37.

British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will

:05:38.:05:39.

take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron

:05:40.:05:43.

secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,

:05:44.:05:47.

not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with

:05:48.:05:52.

Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't

:05:53.:05:58.

think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of

:05:59.:06:02.

reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do

:06:03.:06:11.

put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission

:06:12.:06:23.

to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers

:06:24.:06:28.

around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things

:06:29.:06:31.

cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger

:06:32.:06:35.

of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of

:06:36.:06:39.

work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of

:06:40.:06:42.

countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election

:06:43.:06:45.

results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing

:06:46.:06:50.

parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing

:06:51.:06:52.

real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch

:06:53.:07:01.

decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the

:07:02.:07:04.

condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would

:07:05.:07:10.

have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.

:07:11.:07:16.

Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role

:07:17.:07:19.

in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed

:07:20.:07:28.

up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from

:07:29.:07:32.

that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I

:07:33.:07:36.

think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and

:07:37.:07:39.

it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament

:07:40.:07:45.

to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.

:07:46.:07:50.

They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are

:07:51.:07:54.

the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms

:07:55.:08:01.

of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The

:08:02.:08:08.

current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The

:08:09.:08:14.

Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?

:08:15.:08:19.

We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at

:08:20.:08:24.

the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on

:08:25.:08:27.

whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you

:08:28.:08:37.

think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but

:08:38.:08:41.

also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't

:08:42.:08:45.

challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.

:08:46.:08:50.

Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of

:08:51.:08:55.

State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the

:08:56.:08:57.

existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He

:08:58.:09:01.

doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is

:09:02.:09:05.

the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the

:09:06.:09:09.

position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a

:09:10.:09:15.

distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government

:09:16.:09:21.

now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and

:09:22.:09:24.

the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that

:09:25.:09:28.

important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and

:09:29.:09:33.

that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a

:09:34.:09:36.

whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going

:09:37.:09:43.

to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in

:09:44.:09:48.

2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For

:09:49.:09:53.

one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press

:09:54.:09:55.

ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done

:09:56.:10:00.

in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain

:10:01.:10:05.

outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of

:10:06.:10:09.

migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this

:10:10.:10:13.

week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will

:10:14.:10:17.

you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the

:10:18.:10:20.

government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the

:10:21.:10:24.

election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg

:10:25.:10:30.

speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,

:10:31.:10:35.

more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is

:10:36.:10:39.

all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's

:10:40.:10:43.

not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in

:10:44.:10:47.

the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries

:10:48.:10:53.

those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories

:10:54.:10:57.

and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,

:10:58.:11:02.

will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and

:11:03.:11:04.

perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank

:11:05.:11:12.

you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there

:11:13.:11:16.

is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring

:11:17.:11:20.

back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I

:11:21.:11:24.

think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,

:11:25.:11:29.

those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay

:11:30.:11:32.

regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on

:11:33.:11:36.

renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would

:11:37.:11:40.

vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20

:11:41.:11:44.

years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only

:11:45.:11:49.

stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be

:11:50.:11:52.

re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the

:11:53.:11:59.

referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single

:12:00.:12:02.

biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not

:12:03.:12:07.

what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure

:12:08.:12:12.

to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against

:12:13.:12:16.

Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr

:12:17.:12:20.

Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only

:12:21.:12:24.

because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these

:12:25.:12:30.

changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that

:12:31.:12:33.

would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the

:12:34.:12:38.

biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of

:12:39.:12:44.

coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of

:12:45.:12:51.

benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of

:12:52.:12:53.

movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is

:12:54.:12:57.

a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is

:12:58.:13:01.

also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was

:13:02.:13:04.

encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not

:13:05.:13:09.

say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted

:13:10.:13:14.

in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The

:13:15.:13:17.

fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when

:13:18.:13:28.

he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling

:13:29.:13:30.

to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela

:13:31.:13:33.

Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the

:13:34.:13:35.

European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,

:13:36.:13:39.

he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this

:13:40.:13:43.

basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was

:13:44.:13:46.

presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there

:13:47.:13:50.

was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I

:13:51.:13:55.

understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.

:13:56.:13:58.

I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that

:13:59.:14:04.

he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his

:14:05.:14:10.

backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They

:14:11.:14:13.

don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to

:14:14.:14:17.

draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that

:14:18.:14:20.

sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to

:14:21.:14:24.

Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people

:14:25.:14:27.

will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on

:14:28.:14:33.

Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for

:14:34.:14:39.

immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who

:14:40.:14:42.

John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is

:14:43.:14:44.

replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by

:14:45.:14:47.

arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by

:14:48.:14:50.

staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would

:14:51.:15:11.

leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common

:15:12.:15:15.

foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims

:15:16.:15:23.

which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change

:15:24.:15:26.

anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of

:15:27.:15:34.

these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants

:15:35.:15:39.

to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the

:15:40.:15:44.

chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,

:15:45.:15:48.

doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big

:15:49.:15:56.

things to get through first in domestic politics before we even

:15:57.:16:02.

reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom

:16:03.:16:06.

this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,

:16:07.:16:12.

are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to

:16:13.:16:17.

be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they

:16:18.:16:22.

going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the

:16:23.:16:27.

sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK

:16:28.:16:32.

stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David

:16:33.:16:37.

Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a

:16:38.:16:42.

danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes

:16:43.:16:49.

correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press

:16:50.:16:53.

comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold

:16:54.:16:58.

Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to

:16:59.:17:03.

say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is

:17:04.:17:08.

different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it

:17:09.:17:13.

cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government

:17:14.:17:18.

to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land

:17:19.:17:23.

will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on

:17:24.:17:27.

the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European

:17:28.:17:33.

Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the

:17:34.:17:37.

line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting

:17:38.:17:42.

dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will

:17:43.:17:53.

not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.

:17:54.:17:59.

If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is

:18:00.:18:04.

working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority

:18:05.:18:09.

of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see

:18:10.:18:13.

there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined

:18:14.:18:19.

ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had

:18:20.:18:23.

about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it

:18:24.:18:30.

is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a

:18:31.:18:33.

referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious

:18:34.:18:39.

consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking

:18:40.:18:45.

about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people

:18:46.:18:50.

to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his

:18:51.:18:56.

party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a

:18:57.:19:01.

whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything

:19:02.:19:05.

we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future

:19:06.:19:10.

integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are

:19:11.:19:14.

upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being

:19:15.:19:20.

passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are

:19:21.:19:24.

prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in

:19:25.:19:29.

charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into

:19:30.:19:33.

which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence

:19:34.:19:39.

Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib

:19:40.:19:49.

Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what

:19:50.:19:54.

the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the

:19:55.:19:57.

choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political

:19:58.:20:02.

leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we

:20:03.:20:06.

went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the

:20:07.:20:11.

individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I

:20:12.:20:16.

mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his

:20:17.:20:21.

views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a

:20:22.:20:28.

small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of

:20:29.:20:33.

America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is

:20:34.:20:43.

really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we

:20:44.:20:55.

closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the

:20:56.:21:01.

idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers

:21:02.:21:10.

back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly

:21:11.:21:19.

been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that

:21:20.:21:23.

has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are

:21:24.:21:29.

we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship

:21:30.:21:33.

with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or

:21:34.:21:45.

another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on

:21:46.:21:49.

and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can

:21:50.:21:53.

remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the

:21:54.:21:58.

referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it

:21:59.:22:04.

sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is

:22:05.:22:09.

a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we

:22:10.:22:17.

will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to

:22:18.:22:26.

ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I

:22:27.:22:31.

thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the

:22:32.:22:35.

Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional

:22:36.:22:42.

implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to

:22:43.:22:46.

established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we

:22:47.:22:54.

mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the

:22:55.:22:58.

institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by

:22:59.:23:03.

federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate

:23:04.:23:10.

but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains

:23:11.:23:13.

national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it

:23:14.:23:23.

makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the

:23:24.:23:26.

Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU

:23:27.:23:37.

wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you

:23:38.:23:41.

liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to

:23:42.:23:48.

you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be

:23:49.:23:51.

disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only

:23:52.:23:57.

had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,

:23:58.:24:02.

France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of

:24:03.:24:09.

menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the

:24:10.:24:14.

North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an

:24:15.:24:22.

army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms

:24:23.:24:32.

of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you

:24:33.:24:36.

can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having

:24:37.:24:40.

the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the

:24:41.:24:46.

United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,

:24:47.:24:52.

Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is

:24:53.:24:57.

an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want

:24:58.:25:02.

to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a

:25:03.:25:06.

referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he

:25:07.:25:22.

was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and

:25:23.:25:27.

restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw

:25:28.:25:30.

everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born

:25:31.:25:36.

after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those

:25:37.:25:40.

plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British

:25:41.:25:47.

was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men

:25:48.:25:52.

smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a

:25:53.:25:57.

political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in

:25:58.:26:01.

those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,

:26:02.:26:12.

more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that

:26:13.:26:17.

thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in

:26:18.:26:28.

enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately

:26:29.:26:31.

we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think

:26:32.:26:37.

it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has

:26:38.:26:43.

improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.

:26:44.:26:47.

Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on

:26:48.:26:53.

those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the

:26:54.:26:58.

introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride

:26:59.:27:05.

in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.

:27:06.:27:18.

We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson

:27:19.:27:21.

from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban

:27:22.:27:24.

on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark

:27:25.:27:28.

They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are

:27:29.:27:37.

bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in

:27:38.:27:47.

our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as

:27:48.:27:51.

children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start

:27:52.:27:56.

smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for

:27:57.:28:01.

you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we

:28:02.:28:05.

totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make

:28:06.:28:11.

that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol

:28:12.:28:15.

eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is

:28:16.:28:19.

totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes

:28:20.:28:24.

which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping

:28:25.:28:27.

children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops

:28:28.:28:34.

shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so

:28:35.:28:39.

you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a

:28:40.:28:44.

36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you

:28:45.:28:49.

will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the

:28:50.:28:54.

younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily

:28:55.:28:58.

addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this

:28:59.:29:03.

becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you

:29:04.:29:08.

would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have

:29:09.:29:13.

no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if

:29:14.:29:16.

we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2

:29:17.:29:22.

years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't

:29:23.:29:27.

have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their

:29:28.:29:31.

20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes

:29:32.:29:35.

the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting

:29:36.:29:39.

cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get

:29:40.:29:45.

better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is

:29:46.:29:55.

going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.

:29:56.:30:00.

Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see

:30:01.:30:04.

adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is

:30:05.:30:08.

for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop

:30:09.:30:13.

young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they

:30:14.:30:17.

never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds

:30:18.:30:27.

who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government

:30:28.:30:32.

increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to

:30:33.:30:37.

18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,

:30:38.:30:42.

we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal

:30:43.:30:45.

says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a

:30:46.:30:51.

motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There

:30:52.:30:54.

is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they

:30:55.:30:58.

doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not

:30:59.:31:02.

about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and

:31:03.:31:05.

they have to get their act together because they are bringing the

:31:06.:31:09.

medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about

:31:10.:31:14.

things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,

:31:15.:31:19.

but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes

:31:20.:31:21.

altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s

:31:22.:31:28.

not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to

:31:29.:31:32.

smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would

:31:33.:31:36.

be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So

:31:37.:31:43.

even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,

:31:44.:31:46.

just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the

:31:47.:31:53.

habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so

:31:54.:31:57.

that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so

:31:58.:32:02.

important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One

:32:03.:32:05.

thing you will find is that throughout the world people is

:32:06.:32:08.

looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and

:32:09.:32:13.

different countries like Australia, they were the first with a

:32:14.:32:16.

standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all

:32:17.:32:19.

of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the

:32:20.:32:25.

tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with

:32:26.:32:29.

cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going

:32:30.:32:32.

head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal

:32:33.:32:36.

representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "

:32:37.:32:40.

So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?

:32:41.:32:42.

Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,

:32:43.:32:45.

but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what

:32:46.:32:47.

parliament might look like after the next year's general election.

:32:48.:32:49.

Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to

:32:50.:32:56.

Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of

:32:57.:32:58.

Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010

:32:59.:33:04.

more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but

:33:05.:33:08.

not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.

:33:09.:33:16.

Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female

:33:17.:33:22.

MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and

:33:23.:33:29.

the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have

:33:30.:33:33.

selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and

:33:34.:33:36.

to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been

:33:37.:33:40.

trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts

:33:41.:33:44.

and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the

:33:45.:33:49.

all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the

:33:50.:33:55.

whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long

:33:56.:33:58.

way to go on the issue of being representative. So we

:33:59.:34:09.

way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack

:34:10.:34:10.

of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.

:34:11.:34:10.

In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they

:34:11.:34:42.

got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%

:34:43.:34:49.

The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy

:34:50.:34:50.

at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most

:34:51.:34:53.

marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn

:34:54.:34:56.

In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected

:34:57.:34:59.

If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones

:35:00.:35:04.

they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.

:35:05.:35:08.

The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won

:35:09.:35:11.

at the last election, if they manage that, they would have

:35:12.:35:14.

However all the indications are it could be

:35:15.:35:19.

a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform

:35:20.:35:23.

swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.

:35:24.:35:28.

One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all

:35:29.:35:32.

options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is

:35:33.:35:35.

The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at

:35:36.:35:50.

evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life

:35:51.:35:57.

experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.

:35:58.:36:01.

They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be

:36:02.:36:02.

represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary

:36:03.:36:07.

projection for gender, According to the last census

:36:08.:36:08.

in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from

:36:09.:36:14.

black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they

:36:15.:36:20.

get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party

:36:21.:36:23.

were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME

:36:24.:36:27.

candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,

:36:28.:36:34.

that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats

:36:35.:36:37.

don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling

:36:38.:36:46.

on to their current number of seats they would have two,

:36:47.:36:51.

giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost

:36:52.:36:54.

their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix

:36:55.:36:56.

of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve

:36:57.:37:06.

the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to

:37:07.:37:08.

a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford

:37:09.:37:13.

or Cambridge. Only a fifth

:37:14.:37:21.

of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with

:37:22.:37:28.

the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like

:37:29.:37:32.

us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they

:37:33.:37:35.

cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the

:37:36.:37:40.

turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20

:37:41.:37:43.

points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and

:37:44.:37:46.

that is getting worse with single election.

:37:47.:37:49.

And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a

:37:50.:37:51.

Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get

:37:52.:37:54.

It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:55.:38:04.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:05.:38:06.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.

:38:07.:38:10.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:38:11.:38:28.

and the rain has been falling, so it must be Glastonbury. We will be

:38:29.:38:33.

asking young people which b`nd of politicians they want to he`r more

:38:34.:38:37.

from next year and who they think should turn the volume down. Our

:38:38.:38:43.

guests are two politicians who could grace the Pyramid stage any day

:38:44.:38:50.

Graham Watson, outgoing Lib Dem MEP, and Aaron S Royle who leads Labour

:38:51.:38:59.

in the House of Lords. First, let's talk about the appointment of the

:39:00.:39:04.

European Commissioner. David Cameron opposes him. Did he mishandle it?

:39:05.:39:14.

Yes, absolutely. He's done everything to alienate the council

:39:15.:39:21.

and the Parliament. Mr Miliband was against him as well. So his views

:39:22.:39:30.

were ignored as well. Well, Mr Miliband is not a prime minhster. Mr

:39:31.:39:40.

Cameron later Lee mishandled it I think he will be perfectly good

:39:41.:39:48.

That is faint praise. He will be better than the current leader. He

:39:49.:39:54.

is capable of capturing the zeitgeist. I think he is capable of

:39:55.:39:58.

recognising what is needed `nd delivering it. Does this mark the

:39:59.:40:06.

point where British influence really does begin to wane? Sadly, ht has

:40:07.:40:14.

been on the wane for a long time. In this case, Mr Cameron took Britain

:40:15.:40:22.

outside. Had we stayed, we light have ended up with a differdnt

:40:23.:40:28.

candidate. Also, we have constantly failed to participate in new

:40:29.:40:34.

projects that the union has done. It started with the euro, then with

:40:35.:40:39.

banking union. We have allowed ourselves to become semidet`ched.

:40:40.:40:45.

You know him, don't you? Dods he like a drink? No, that is in rusty

:40:46.:40:52.

story that has been put arotnd. I think he drinks averagely for a man

:40:53.:41:01.

of his age. Now, it is not `lways easy being NME P. Yes, therd is a

:41:02.:41:06.

large salary, but you can w`lk a long way throughout the corridors of

:41:07.:41:11.

Brussels. Graham is saying goodbye to all of that. Even his crhtics

:41:12.:41:18.

would admit Brussels is loshng one of its most urbane and profdssional

:41:19.:41:22.

operators. He is saying fardwell and the new boys and girls are `rriving,

:41:23.:41:31.

excited about the challenges ahead. Excuse me, could you help md? I m

:41:32.:41:39.

looking for the roundabout. Finding your way in a foreign city hs never

:41:40.:41:43.

easy. Even crossing the road can be confusing. But that this wolan,

:41:44.:41:52.

everything is new. Hope I dhdn't get you into trouble crossing at a red

:41:53.:41:58.

light, I apologise. The Southwest's first green Euro MP, she is finding

:41:59.:42:05.

her way in Brussels. Are we on level three now? So we didn't need to come

:42:06.:42:13.

through there. Let's go back this way. Now we're going to be late We

:42:14.:42:19.

are heading to the group medting, so were coming with you. I keep getting

:42:20.:42:28.

lost. These are Green MEPs `nd their staff. It is nice to be in ` big

:42:29.:42:34.

group of greens. Someone who is spelt at home here for 20 ydars is

:42:35.:42:39.

Graham Watson. He has led the liberal group. Yeah, he is chairing

:42:40.:42:43.

the climate Parliament, thotgh not for much longer. Everywhere he goes,

:42:44.:42:50.

old friends and colleagues offer up sympathy. I am sorry to hear you

:42:51.:42:57.

were leaving. That's very khnd of you. You know, that is politics It

:42:58.:43:05.

is time to move on. I've enjoyed the 20 years I've had here and H feel

:43:06.:43:10.

I've done a good job to represent my constituents. I think changd is

:43:11.:43:15.

generally a healthy thing. One thing nobody will miss is the kind of

:43:16.:43:21.

modern art that is on the w`lls I'm not sure quite where it comds from,

:43:22.:43:26.

but it is not always... If xou take this piece, for example, of the most

:43:27.:43:35.

inspired design. What you sde here are sacks full of paper. With so

:43:36.:43:40.

many people leaving parliamdnt, the officers have to be cleared. And

:43:41.:43:47.

with members having to leavd their offices before the inaugural session

:43:48.:43:53.

in Strasbourg, there is rather a lot of work for the shredding m`chines

:43:54.:43:57.

and those who are responsible for clearing the mess. These ard my

:43:58.:44:04.

officers. This is my assist`nt from Estonia. Good experience, it will be

:44:05.:44:12.

gone now. I will be transferring it to the new member. This is where I

:44:13.:44:20.

have generally work from. As you can see, it is full of packing cases. I

:44:21.:44:26.

suppose this is one particular memento. This was my 50th bhrthday.

:44:27.:44:31.

I was leader of the Liberal Democrat group and I was honoured to have the

:44:32.:44:35.

president of the EU commisshon to celebrate my birthday with le. I've

:44:36.:44:43.

had a few laughs as I come `cross papers, things I'd forgotten about

:44:44.:44:49.

entirely. And inevitably a few regrets as well, as I've cole across

:44:50.:44:53.

mementos of friends or colldagues who moved on. But I think the

:44:54.:45:00.

one. It starts you thinking in one. It starts you thinking in

:45:01.:45:07.

different ways. I take the view that you move on to new things and if you

:45:08.:45:12.

have a setback, as I've had at the polls, you pick yourself up and

:45:13.:45:21.

start all over again. Beford he dusts himself down, he is hdre for

:45:22.:45:27.

one last go. Now you can absolutely spilled the beans and give ts all

:45:28.:45:31.

the dirt on what happens in Brussels. Was it your dream to see a

:45:32.:45:35.

United States of Europe with the president at the top replachng the

:45:36.:45:42.

Queen? Know, good lord. I fdel very privileged to have represented

:45:43.:45:51.

Britain in Parliament. I wotld not describe it in those terms. I do

:45:52.:45:55.

believe there is a lot to bd gained from working together in more and

:45:56.:46:01.

more areas. Europe is about dealing with the challenges of

:46:02.:46:03.

globalisation. That requires closer union. But the end policy mtst

:46:04.:46:14.

therefore be United States? Do you think Britain is on the long but

:46:15.:46:20.

steady road to the exit door? No, I very much hope it's not. I really

:46:21.:46:26.

think the people of this cotntry, when it comes to it, will not wish

:46:27.:46:36.

to leave the EU at any time. Why is Mr Miliband toughening his stance on

:46:37.:46:42.

Europe? He is being realisthc. He is saying we want reform, which we do

:46:43.:46:46.

need, because we need to look at growth in the future. Is it

:46:47.:46:55.

democratic? The EU? Yes, it has the European Parliament and the council

:46:56.:46:58.

which is elected by people of the member states. Of course it is the

:46:59.:47:07.

democracy. Unelected offici`ls make the decisions. They are the

:47:08.:47:15.

equivalent of civil servants. The commissioners make the proposals but

:47:16.:47:17.

they do not make the decisions in the end. That is up to the directly

:47:18.:47:22.

elected European Parliament and the Council of ministers. Where do you

:47:23.:47:26.

think you went wrong in your election campaign? I think we were

:47:27.:47:33.

onto a hiding because voters wanted to punish the two parties of the

:47:34.:47:37.

coalition who've had to raise taxes and cut public spending to bring

:47:38.:47:42.

Britain out of the recession. Tories lost seats and we lost seats. UKIP

:47:43.:47:48.

have identified this dissatisfaction, especially with

:47:49.:47:50.

Europe, and have positioned themselves in a place you are not. I

:47:51.:47:57.

think the attraction of UKIP, as it were, is not really about Etrope. It

:47:58.:48:02.

is anti`politics. People ard fed up with politicians, they don't like

:48:03.:48:07.

how people have overpromised and underdelivered. They want to see a

:48:08.:48:12.

different sort of politician. I understand that, but UKIP is not the

:48:13.:48:18.

answer. Is it galling that xou are going, you knew that place hnside

:48:19.:48:23.

out, you know how it works, you speak several languages, and the

:48:24.:48:26.

people coming in in considerable numbers just want the place to be

:48:27.:48:32.

destroyed? I believe in democracy, and those are the people who devote

:48:33.:48:36.

to send, they must be the pdople who represent us. So whether voters

:48:37.:48:44.

right, do you think? The voters are always right in a democracy. And

:48:45.:48:49.

Claire Moody is a fantastic young woman. It is great for Labotr to

:48:50.:48:55.

have an MEP in the south`west. It is not surprising you would sax that. I

:48:56.:49:01.

tell you, she will work has socks off for the south`west, reg`rdless

:49:02.:49:06.

of the party she works for. She is a cracking woman. Thank you. Next

:49:07.:49:13.

year, over 3 million young people will be entitled to vote in their

:49:14.:49:16.

first general election. Thex will play a crucial part in deciding who

:49:17.:49:21.

will form next government. Hf they do turn out, how will they vote

:49:22.:49:26.

We've been finding out at Britain's biggest gathering of young people,

:49:27.:49:30.

Glastonbury. It is 44 years since the first

:49:31.:49:34.

festival. Michael Evers says politics gives Glastonbury soul He

:49:35.:49:41.

himself is a Labour man and was a candidate in the 1997 gener`l

:49:42.:49:46.

election. Now, you might expect a new generation of voters to be

:49:47.:49:51.

flocking to his party. But what young people have been tellhng me

:49:52.:49:57.

suggests otherwise. Given Glastonbury's green leanings,

:49:58.:49:59.

perhaps it is not a surprisd many say they would vote that wax. Green

:50:00.:50:07.

Party. Green Party. Labour. Green Party. Conservative. He's not the

:50:08.:50:17.

only one. Polls reckon a qu`rter of youngsters may want David C`meron to

:50:18.:50:24.

continue. Edging towards thd Conservatives. They were paxing

:50:25.:50:33.

tribute to Tony Benn in Glastonbury 's political corner. We will never

:50:34.:50:43.

forget what you gave to him. It was the most intense and great privilege

:50:44.:50:51.

to be here with him. But wh`t was striking was attitudes towards

:50:52.:50:55.

1`party which once attracted many youthful boats. Not one of xou would

:50:56.:51:05.

vote Lib Dem? No. While thex are not getting the protest votes, they are

:51:06.:51:11.

not going to UKIP, either. No, not UKIP, not BNP, no one like that

:51:12.:51:18.

Politics does feature large at Glastonbury. This giant poster wall

:51:19.:51:24.

highlights some of the issuds. One person who feels at home here is the

:51:25.:51:30.

been to ask him who he thinks been to ask him who he thinks

:51:31.:51:36.

first`time voters will go for. In 1979, the first chance I had, I

:51:37.:51:41.

didn't vote. I couldn't see a difference between Jim Call`ghan and

:51:42.:51:44.

Margaret Thatcher. You can hmagine what a face palm that is for me now.

:51:45.:51:51.

When young people don't votd for the first time, I don't lose fahth. I

:51:52.:51:57.

ended up rather politicised, so they are not without hope. It is

:51:58.:52:03.

difficult. If I couldn't tell the difference back then when L`bour and

:52:04.:52:06.

Conservatives were on opposhte sides of the spectrum, how diffictlt must

:52:07.:52:11.

it be for Young people now, when the similarities between Cameron and

:52:12.:52:14.

Miliband are sometimes diffhcult to see? You voted Lib Dem at the last

:52:15.:52:25.

three. That was tactical voting I'm frustratingly the first past the

:52:26.:52:30.

post system. You work on `` complimentary about the manhfesto. I

:52:31.:52:39.

was, it was a good manifesto, but what happened to? It was put in the

:52:40.:52:46.

rubbish bin. So feel betraydd. Young people are looking at the m`instream

:52:47.:52:49.

parties and thinking, how c`n we believe what they are saying? Do you

:52:50.:52:55.

feel the mainstream has movdd away from you? You went to join the

:52:56.:52:59.

occupied protest, you went to Bristol and supported them. That

:53:00.:53:06.

protest went nowhere, didn't it Idealism is about questioning the

:53:07.:53:09.

system and looking at what the problems are. We're activists who

:53:10.:53:13.

are here, young people who done great work focusing on corporations

:53:14.:53:20.

who pay no tax in the UK. This is a high concern among all voters.

:53:21.:53:24.

You've been singing protest songs for more than 30 years. Do xou ever

:53:25.:53:30.

feel it is in vain? Now, I don't think music is the first pl`ce

:53:31.:53:34.

people turn to for the voicd of their generation. It is mord likely

:53:35.:53:40.

to be YouTube, Twitter. Mushc is no longer the vanguard medium ht was in

:53:41.:53:45.

the 1980s. My job is to encourage people. Tony Benn was our p`trons

:53:46.:53:51.

are so many years and is no longer with us, but he is here in spirit.

:53:52.:53:57.

We ever poster at the front of the stage which has the epitaph he asked

:53:58.:54:03.

for his help. We are here to encourage the audience to bdlieve

:54:04.:54:06.

they can change the world. That is how it works. Only the audidnce can

:54:07.:54:14.

change the world. Billy Bragg trying to stoke up some passion. What is

:54:15.:54:18.

most striking is that young people have given up on political hssues.

:54:19.:54:23.

Greenpeace is doing a roaring trade here. It is that so many ard

:54:24.:54:27.

disillusioned with party politics and may simply not vote in the

:54:28.:54:34.

election. Let's pick up on some of those

:54:35.:54:39.

points Billy Bragg made. Do you agree young people can be brought

:54:40.:54:43.

back into the political fold? Absolutely. I do lots of work with

:54:44.:54:47.

young people. There are so lany these days who are not interested in

:54:48.:54:51.

politics because they don't know enough about it. But becausd we are

:54:52.:54:58.

not doing proper citizenship, proper politics teaching in our schools, it

:54:59.:55:02.

is off the radar for most young people. They don't understand

:55:03.:55:06.

everything that happens in our lives is determined by politics. When you

:55:07.:55:12.

talk with young people, there is a great organisation which enthuses

:55:13.:55:15.

young people. At the beginnhng sessions they are not infusdd, but

:55:16.:55:20.

by the end, they are. I want them to vote. The truth is, this is a

:55:21.:55:27.

difficult time to be young. No jobs for life, pensions are diffhcult,

:55:28.:55:30.

zero hours contracts and all that sort of thing. But also, it is a

:55:31.:55:37.

great time to be young. The world is at their feet. The country hs

:55:38.:55:43.

stable, there are no wars for them to buy it. So perhaps there is

:55:44.:55:49.

nothing to vote about. Well, when you think about the huge ch`llenges

:55:50.:55:56.

we face, like climate changd, rapid world population growth,

:55:57.:55:59.

internationally organised crime these are massive challenges. But

:56:00.:56:02.

our newspapers dumbed down political debate and we do not hear about it.

:56:03.:56:08.

Well, their lives are quite civilised. They go to Glastonbury

:56:09.:56:11.

and have a fantastic weekend with their brands. If you pick up

:56:12.:56:17.

newspapers or watch televishon in continental Europe, you will learn

:56:18.:56:21.

about politics. Here, you ldarn about the lives of celebrithes.

:56:22.:56:25.

There is a dumbing down of political debate. That is true, but young

:56:26.:56:31.

people care passionately about these issues. They don't vote bec`use they

:56:32.:56:35.

don't relate the issues to changing the world by the ballot box. So I

:56:36.:56:42.

feel we have do somehow enthuse young people about the power of

:56:43.:56:46.

politics, the power of putthng that cross on a piece of paper. Of course

:56:47.:56:52.

I'm Labour, proud to be Labour, but I don't care how people votd. I just

:56:53.:56:58.

want them to vote. Is it different in Europe? I think it is different

:56:59.:57:06.

in many continental countrids. Do they vote at 18? In larger numbers?

:57:07.:57:12.

They do vote at 18 and in l`rger numbers. We have one of the lower

:57:13.:57:18.

youth turnouts. Is it a failure of politicians? Actually, it is their

:57:19.:57:24.

responsibility. Yes, but I think there is a failure of polithcians.

:57:25.:57:28.

They do not reach out enough. They are seen as we had people from a

:57:29.:57:31.

different class. Sort of an alien species. The truth is, you could not

:57:32.:57:39.

put a fag paper between your different policies. Oh, yes you

:57:40.:57:46.

could. Like what? Really significant differences. Quality jobs for young

:57:47.:57:54.

people. But everybody wants quality jobs for young people. Nobody is

:57:55.:57:57.

campaigning saying, we do not want that. But they are in government and

:57:58.:58:03.

they are not providing qualhty jobs for young people. You just lentioned

:58:04.:58:07.

zero hours. Other policies different? Yes. Under Gordon Brown,

:58:08.:58:16.

we saw a massive expansion of economy under casinos and alcohol

:58:17.:58:19.

consumption. That is not wh`t we want. But it is a bit of `` a

:58:20.:58:27.

percentage point in spending here, a degree of tweaking there. There are

:58:28.:58:32.

not the differences they usdd to be. Our society at the moment is riven

:58:33.:58:37.

with inequality and it is gdtting worse. We want fairer poliches that

:58:38.:58:40.

deliver for all people in this country. Well, another week has

:58:41.:58:47.

raised by. Here is the update in 60 seconds.

:58:48.:58:54.

A children's charity in Bristol claimed young people were bding

:58:55.:59:01.

failed social services enter a state of crisis. It believes the

:59:02.:59:05.

government is falling short on its promise to end child povertx by

:59:06.:59:08.

2020. A Gloucester MP resigned from his

:59:09.:59:13.

job as aid to the Foreign Mhnister. Richard Graham says he is standing

:59:14.:59:17.

down to focus on regeneration plans in his city. Gloucester is ` classic

:59:18.:59:23.

marginal seat. I'm sure it will be a castle.

:59:24.:59:28.

A ban on a drug came into force It is used by some people in Bristol.

:59:29.:59:35.

Being caught with it once whll lead to a verbal warning and repdated use

:59:36.:59:40.

could lead to step the sentdnces. And unions have described plans

:59:41.:59:44.

before councils to share all their staff and services as scary. They

:59:45.:59:50.

are exploring the idea to s`ve money.

:59:51.:59:56.

You are from the Forest of Dean what do you think about councils

:59:57.:00:04.

sharing staff? It is potenthally interesting, because of the

:00:05.:00:07.

phenomenal cuts local counchls are having to deal with. Clearlx, they

:00:08.:00:11.

want to ensure they say flyhng front line services. `` a safeguard. We

:00:12.:00:23.

certainly do have to put thd emphasis on creating jobs in the

:00:24.:00:26.

private sector. That is one area I am pleased that the governmdnt has

:00:27.:00:32.

been hugely successful in. There are over a million private sector jobs

:00:33.:00:36.

and we have lots of young pdople in apprenticeships. So there is hope.

:00:37.:00:43.

Fancy a job on a local council? I don't know what I will do ndxt. I

:00:44.:00:49.

want to take a holiday and have a good think of it. Will you be

:00:50.:00:54.

earning lots of money? It ddpends what I want to do. That's all we

:00:55.:01:02.

have time for. Thank you to our guests. Good luck with whatdver you

:01:03.:01:10.

do. You can contact us on Twitter. Have a good week.

:01:11.:01:12.

been problems elsewhere in Europe, but I take your point. Thanks to

:01:13.:01:17.

both of you today. Back to you, Andrew.

:01:18.:01:22.

Now, there have been some less-than-helpful remarks

:01:23.:01:24.

about the way the Labour party makes policy, and they've come

:01:25.:01:27.

from the man who is heading Labour's Policy Review, Jon Cruddas.

:01:28.:01:31.

In a speech to party activists he was recorded saying that,

:01:32.:01:35.

"instrumentalised, cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus

:01:36.:01:38.

groups and our press strategies and our desire for a topline in terms of

:01:39.:01:41.

the 24 hour media cycle, dominate and crowd out any

:01:42.:01:44.

He added that Labour's election strategy was being hampered by a

:01:45.:01:54.

The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls was asked about what Mr Cruddas had

:01:55.:02:07.

I talked to him a couple of days ago, and he's not frustrated, he is

:02:08.:02:16.

excited about his policy agenda He is frustrated that one report of 250

:02:17.:02:23.

pages gets reduced down. So it's our fault? That is the way we live in

:02:24.:02:29.

the world in which we live, but we have big ideas about devolution

:02:30.:02:33.

long term infrastructure spending and new manufacturing policy, new

:02:34.:02:37.

investment in skills, big changes which, let's be honest, I'm really

:02:38.:02:44.

on George Osborne's agenda. How serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so

:02:45.:02:50.

let's call it an unforced error You go to the party speeches, and you

:02:51.:02:54.

don't know who is in the audience. There is no need for something as

:02:55.:02:57.

serious as this to happen. It's hugely serious because it speaks

:02:58.:03:00.

about something people have felt for a long time, that they have doled

:03:01.:03:04.

out little nuggets of policy but no overarching story. There was a quite

:03:05.:03:08.

saying the Ed Miliband has given as a shopping list, not a narrative.

:03:09.:03:13.

When people in the party say things that are true, it's very difficult

:03:14.:03:17.

for people to explain it away. Not sure Mr Miliband can win here. He

:03:18.:03:21.

was recently criticised for not having policies. Now he's being

:03:22.:03:25.

criticised for having too many. I think this line of attack is

:03:26.:03:28.

particularly wounding because he prides himself on being a politician

:03:29.:03:31.

of ideas. That is his unique selling point, and the weight that David

:03:32.:03:38.

Cameron's prime ministerial nature is his selling point. So it is

:03:39.:03:42.

wounding. If I was the Labour Party, before announcing any policy, I

:03:43.:03:48.

would ask can help fix us on the economy? It might be radicalised

:03:49.:03:51.

immolating on its own terms, but it's politically useless. -- radical

:03:52.:03:57.

and innovative on its own terms I don't think any member of the public

:03:58.:04:00.

does not think they are not radical enough or creative enough. If

:04:01.:04:04.

anything, it's the opposite. They are a bit nervous about what a

:04:05.:04:07.

Labour government could do and nervous about the economic

:04:08.:04:10.

reputation. Reassurance, caution, maybe a bit of timidity might be the

:04:11.:04:16.

notions that inform their policies or should inform their policies in

:04:17.:04:21.

night -- my view, not the opposite. I am worried for Jon Cruddas,

:04:22.:04:24.

because anyone who questions the Labour Party are part of the nexus

:04:25.:04:28.

of the banking industry who are terrified of a Labour victory. It's

:04:29.:04:32.

interesting that this goes to the heart of the debate in the Labour

:04:33.:04:35.

Party, at the highest levels, do they put a big offer to the British

:04:36.:04:40.

people, or a little off, John Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander

:04:41.:04:45.

offer? Ed Miliband says that his ideas about freezing energy prices

:04:46.:04:50.

and rent controls are a big offer, but his policy chief clearly has

:04:51.:04:53.

real concerns that they don't go far enough. How important a figure is

:04:54.:04:59.

John Cruddas in the project? He is hell of the -- head of the policy

:05:00.:05:03.

review and has a huge amount of power, and so him slagging off the

:05:04.:05:07.

policy review is a bad moment. He is trusted in that inner circle and the

:05:08.:05:12.

problem for Ed Miliband from the odd is that he has people with strong

:05:13.:05:16.

opinions, Maurice clasping is another, big thinkers, but they

:05:17.:05:20.

maybe don't have a precaution that a professional politician might have

:05:21.:05:24.

in terms of giving bland answers. So, David Cameron had to apologise

:05:25.:05:28.

after his former director of communications was convicted

:05:29.:05:31.

of phone hacking. David Cameron's other former friend,

:05:32.:05:33.

Rebekah Brooks, had a better day. At the same trial, she was cleared

:05:34.:05:36.

of all the charges against her. I take full responsibility for

:05:37.:05:46.

employing Andy Coulson. I did some on the basis of undertakings I was

:05:47.:05:50.

given by him about phone hacking and those turned out not to be the case.

:05:51.:05:53.

I always said that if they turned out to be wrong, I would make a full

:05:54.:05:57.

and frank apology, and I do that today. I am extremely sorry that I

:05:58.:06:02.

employed him. It was the wrong decision. I'm clear about that. When

:06:03.:06:07.

I was arrested it was in the middle of a maelstrom of controversy,

:06:08.:06:11.

politics and of comment. Some of that was there, but much of it was

:06:12.:06:17.

not, so I'm grateful to the jury for coming to that decision. Not been a

:06:18.:06:25.

great week for David Cameron. Andy Coulson found guilty, and another

:06:26.:06:29.

person who had worked in Downing Street is also charged on an

:06:30.:06:35.

unrelated issue. And he was 26- on the wrong end in Brussels, and there

:06:36.:06:38.

is a poll this morning which no one seems to be talking about which puts

:06:39.:06:42.

Labour nine points ahead. Before all that there was Dominic Cummings

:06:43.:06:44.

criticising the Downing Street operation is being shambolic. Is Mr

:06:45.:06:50.

Cameron's judgement becoming an issue? Yes, what often happens when

:06:51.:06:54.

one leader is under pressure for long enough, as Ed Miliband has been

:06:55.:06:57.

the six months, we get bored. We then switch the Gatling gun to the

:06:58.:07:02.

other guy. So David Cameron going into the Conference season might be

:07:03.:07:05.

the man under pressure. The whole Andy Coulson saga has raised

:07:06.:07:08.

questions about his judgement and those around him, but any political

:07:09.:07:12.

damage she was going to sustain over Andy Coulson and phone hacking was

:07:13.:07:15.

sustained years ago -- he was going. It was Brother beyond the

:07:16.:07:18.

date the News of the World was closed down three summers ago - it

:07:19.:07:24.

was probably on the date. As the hacking trial cut through to the

:07:25.:07:30.

general public? Or is it just as media and political obsessives? I am

:07:31.:07:33.

sure it has cut through in some way but it didn't necessarily happen in

:07:34.:07:37.

recent days, more likely in recent years. It was some time ago that

:07:38.:07:41.

Andy Coulson resigned in high profile circumstances. It has had a

:07:42.:07:45.

slow burning effect over a few years, and the Prime Minister fears

:07:46.:07:49.

the Big Bang. But there is one theme and words that unites this week with

:07:50.:07:54.

Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that is that the Prime Minister can be

:07:55.:07:58.

lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical in not asking big question is when

:07:59.:08:01.

there was a lot in the public domain about what had happened that the

:08:02.:08:04.

News of the World. And he was lackadaisical with Juncker. He made

:08:05.:08:08.

a calculation that Angela Merkel would support him and it turned out

:08:09.:08:13.

she couldn't. Maybe he needs to change. He was late in understanding

:08:14.:08:17.

what was happening in Germany when both the Christian Democrats, her

:08:18.:08:23.

party, wanted Juncker, and when the actual Murdoch press of Germany said

:08:24.:08:26.

that they wanted him as well. He never saw that. He only looks at one

:08:27.:08:31.

person in Germany, Angela Merkel, and it is a grand coalition, and the

:08:32.:08:37.

SDP felt strongly about it. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime

:08:38.:08:40.

Minister. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He s

:08:41.:08:43.

very good in an essay, and the SA gets a double first the essay. Is Ed

:08:44.:08:51.

Miliband right to be angry? He has John Cruddas attacking him, and that

:08:52.:08:53.

is the news leading in the Sunday Times, and has not been a good week

:08:54.:08:59.

the Prime Minister and in which Mr Miliband has a bigger lead in the

:09:00.:09:02.

polls than he has had some time so he must be wondering why they are

:09:03.:09:06.

having a go at him. He made a tactical error in Prime Minister's

:09:07.:09:08.

Questions by asking all the questions about Andy Coulson. The

:09:09.:09:13.

one at the end about what Gus O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in

:09:14.:09:17.

the extreme. Politicians can be out of touch on all sides of the house.

:09:18.:09:21.

The problem is, and there is a great quote by William Hague, is that the

:09:22.:09:25.

Tory party has two modes, panic and complacency. At the moment they are

:09:26.:09:29.

complacent. They think Ed Miliband will lose Labour election but I

:09:30.:09:31.

don't know if they have a positive plan about how to win it. -- lose

:09:32.:09:33.

Labour the election. Now, we knew Prince Charles had

:09:34.:09:36.

trouble keeping his views about the environment

:09:37.:09:39.

and the countryside to himself, but that's not the only thing he's

:09:40.:09:41.

passionate about according to a radio four documentary to be

:09:42.:09:44.

broadcast this lunchtime. Here's former Education Secretary,

:09:45.:09:46.

David Blunkett on how the Prince had once attempted to influence

:09:47.:09:51.

his policy on schools. I would explain that our policy was

:09:52.:09:58.

not to expand grammar schools, and he didn't like that. He was very

:09:59.:10:03.

keen that we should go back to a different era where youngsters had

:10:04.:10:07.

what he would've seen as the opportunity to escape from their

:10:08.:10:11.

background, where as I wanted to change their background.

:10:12.:10:13.

And you can hear that documentary - it's called The Royal Activist

:10:14.:10:16.

Does it matter that Prince Charles is getting involved in this kind of

:10:17.:10:25.

policy, released behind closed doors question mark on the issue of

:10:26.:10:27.

grammar schools is not clear anybody listened to him. I think it is a

:10:28.:10:33.

principal problem. I've spoken to form a government members, and

:10:34.:10:37.

judging by what they say, if anything we underestimate how much

:10:38.:10:41.

contacting makes with ministers And how many representations he makes on

:10:42.:10:45.

the issue that interest him. There has been an attempt to keep it

:10:46.:10:50.

hidden. It's almost a theological question about whether the future

:10:51.:10:54.

monarch should be involved in the public realm. If he wants to

:10:55.:10:57.

influence policy, shouldn't we know what policy he's trying to influence

:10:58.:11:02.

and what position he is taking? Sewer speech is better than private

:11:03.:11:07.

one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so a speech. Prince Charles's views are

:11:08.:11:13.

interesting. He's not a straight down the light reactionary. He makes

:11:14.:11:17.

a left-wing case for rammer schools. There is an interview with him in

:11:18.:11:19.

the Financial Times in which his argument in favour for architectural

:11:20.:11:24.

development takes into account affordable housing in the wake which

:11:25.:11:28.

no one would have suspected. He has interesting views, but I'm not

:11:29.:11:31.

convinced on the point of principle whether someone is dashing his

:11:32.:11:37.

position should be speaking. Your former employer 's famously

:11:38.:11:43.

described him as the SDP king. You slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66

:11:44.:11:49.

and still an apprentice. He's in a difficult position. We know what the

:11:50.:11:54.

powers of the monarch are. They are to advise in courage and warned the

:11:55.:11:57.

Prime Minister of the day. These in the difficult position where the

:11:58.:12:01.

problem for him is that there is a line that isn't really defined, but

:12:02.:12:04.

you slightly feel he just gets a bit too close to it and possibly crosses

:12:05.:12:10.

that line with the lobbying that goes on. I think the worrying thing

:12:11.:12:14.

is that at some point he will become King and will he know that he has

:12:15.:12:20.

got to work within that framework? He is somebody that cannot win

:12:21.:12:23.

either. If he doesn't take an interest in public policy, he will

:12:24.:12:27.

be thought to be a bit of a waster, going round opening town halls, and

:12:28.:12:31.

when he does have an interest we think, hey, you are in the monarchy,

:12:32.:12:35.

stay out. There's an interesting parallel with first ladies who are

:12:36.:12:41.

encouraged to find a controversial charitable project. Michelle Obama

:12:42.:12:44.

has bought childhood obesity, and that is the standard thing.

:12:45.:12:48.

Everybody knows that that is a bad thing, but you are not offering

:12:49.:12:52.

solutions that are party political. I feel there must be a middle way

:12:53.:12:56.

with what he should be able to do about finding big causes he can

:12:57.:12:59.

complain about without getting stuck into lobbying ministers. Which can

:13:00.:13:04.

become a party political issue. He has had some influence on

:13:05.:13:06.

architecture, because the buildings we are putting up to date are better

:13:07.:13:08.

than the ones we used to put up The Daily Politics is on BBC 2

:13:09.:13:10.

at 11:00am We'll be back here

:13:11.:13:15.

at the same time next week. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:16.:13:20.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:21.:13:24.

With David Garmston. Andrew Neil is joined by Europe minister David Lidington, Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Lib Dem Charles Kennedy to discuss David Cameron's EU defeat. Also should there be a complete ban on smoking?


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS