Browse content similar to 29/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit. | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit? | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
Doctors want to ban smoking outright. | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
And goodbye to the man who loves the EU. So Graham Watson is givhng his | :00:57. | :01:27. | |
And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. | :01:31. | :01:41. | |
They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
it big in the world of European politic. | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
He'll soon be President of the European Commission, | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course. | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker. | :02:09. | :02:23. | |
-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK? | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European | :03:09. | :03:18. | |
countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you. | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new | :03:54. | :04:01. | |
Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the | :04:02. | :04:11. | |
approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
the single currency will want to press forward with closer | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that | :05:10. | :05:22. | |
there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will | :05:38. | :05:39. | |
take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance, | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do | :06:03. | :06:11. | |
put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission | :06:12. | :06:23. | |
to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing | :06:51. | :06:52. | |
real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch | :06:53. | :07:01. | |
decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
have to put that question to some of the heads of European government. | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed | :07:20. | :07:28. | |
up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce. | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are? | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you | :08:28. | :08:37. | |
think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform. | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the | :08:56. | :08:57. | |
existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press | :09:54. | :09:55. | |
ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable, | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election, | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and | :11:03. | :11:04. | |
perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts, | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20 | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of | :12:52. | :12:53. | |
movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when | :13:18. | :13:28. | |
he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it, | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament. | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is | :14:43. | :14:44. | |
replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would | :14:51. | :15:11. | |
leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of | :15:27. | :15:34. | |
these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases, | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big | :15:49. | :15:56. | |
things to get through first in domestic politics before we even | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly, | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will | :17:43. | :17:53. | |
not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party. | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib | :19:40. | :19:49. | |
Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is | :20:34. | :20:43. | |
really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we | :20:44. | :20:55. | |
closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers | :21:02. | :21:10. | |
back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly | :21:11. | :21:19. | |
been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or | :21:34. | :21:45. | |
another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to | :22:18. | :22:26. | |
ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we | :22:47. | :22:54. | |
mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it | :23:14. | :23:23. | |
makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU | :23:27. | :23:37. | |
wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries, | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms | :24:23. | :24:32. | |
of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you, | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he | :25:07. | :25:22. | |
was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile, | :26:02. | :26:12. | |
more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in | :26:18. | :26:28. | |
enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma. | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
in smoking and see it as a war on freedom. | :27:06. | :27:18. | |
We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are | :27:29. | :27:37. | |
bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in | :27:38. | :27:47. | |
our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2 | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is | :29:46. | :29:55. | |
going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever. | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds | :30:18. | :30:27. | |
who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing, | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
they have to get their act together because they are bringing the | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places, | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes | :31:20. | :31:21. | |
altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So | :31:37. | :31:43. | |
even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke, | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the | :31:47. | :31:53. | |
habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
thing you will find is that throughout the world people is | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
different countries like Australia, they were the first with a | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be " | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going? | :32:41. | :32:42. | |
Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself, | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what | :32:46. | :32:47. | |
parliament might look like after the next year's general election. | :32:48. | :32:49. | |
Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of | :32:57. | :32:58. | |
Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010 | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males. | :33:09. | :33:16. | |
Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
way to go on the issue of being representative. So we | :33:59. | :34:09. | |
way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack | :34:10. | :34:10. | |
of women and ethnic minorities. Women first. | :34:11. | :34:10. | |
In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they | :34:11. | :34:42. | |
got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1% | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy | :34:50. | :34:50. | |
at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time. | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
at the last election, if they manage that, they would have | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
However all the indications are it could be | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party. | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at | :35:36. | :35:50. | |
evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life | :35:51. | :35:57. | |
experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior. | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be | :36:02. | :36:02. | |
represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
projection for gender, According to the last census | :36:08. | :36:08. | |
in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats, | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling | :36:38. | :36:46. | |
on to their current number of seats they would have two, | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve | :36:57. | :37:06. | |
the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to | :37:07. | :37:08. | |
a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
or Cambridge. Only a fifth | :37:14. | :37:21. | |
of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20 | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
that is getting worse with single election. | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a | :37:50. | :37:51. | |
Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :37:55. | :38:04. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :38:05. | :38:06. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel. | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
First though, the Sunday Politics where you are. | :38:11. | :38:28. | |
and the rain has been falling, so it must be Glastonbury. We will be | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
asking young people which b`nd of politicians they want to he`r more | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
from next year and who they think should turn the volume down. Our | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
guests are two politicians who could grace the Pyramid stage any day | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
Graham Watson, outgoing Lib Dem MEP, and Aaron S Royle who leads Labour | :38:51. | :38:59. | |
in the House of Lords. First, let's talk about the appointment of the | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
European Commissioner. David Cameron opposes him. Did he mishandle it? | :39:05. | :39:14. | |
Yes, absolutely. He's done everything to alienate the council | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
and the Parliament. Mr Miliband was against him as well. So his views | :39:22. | :39:30. | |
were ignored as well. Well, Mr Miliband is not a prime minhster. Mr | :39:31. | :39:40. | |
Cameron later Lee mishandled it I think he will be perfectly good | :39:41. | :39:48. | |
That is faint praise. He will be better than the current leader. He | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
is capable of capturing the zeitgeist. I think he is capable of | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
recognising what is needed `nd delivering it. Does this mark the | :39:59. | :40:06. | |
point where British influence really does begin to wane? Sadly, ht has | :40:07. | :40:14. | |
been on the wane for a long time. In this case, Mr Cameron took Britain | :40:15. | :40:22. | |
outside. Had we stayed, we light have ended up with a differdnt | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
candidate. Also, we have constantly failed to participate in new | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
projects that the union has done. It started with the euro, then with | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
banking union. We have allowed ourselves to become semidet`ched. | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
You know him, don't you? Dods he like a drink? No, that is in rusty | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
story that has been put arotnd. I think he drinks averagely for a man | :40:53. | :41:01. | |
of his age. Now, it is not `lways easy being NME P. Yes, therd is a | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
large salary, but you can w`lk a long way throughout the corridors of | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
Brussels. Graham is saying goodbye to all of that. Even his crhtics | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
would admit Brussels is loshng one of its most urbane and profdssional | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
operators. He is saying fardwell and the new boys and girls are `rriving, | :41:23. | :41:31. | |
excited about the challenges ahead. Excuse me, could you help md? I m | :41:32. | :41:39. | |
looking for the roundabout. Finding your way in a foreign city hs never | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
easy. Even crossing the road can be confusing. But that this wolan, | :41:44. | :41:52. | |
everything is new. Hope I dhdn't get you into trouble crossing at a red | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
light, I apologise. The Southwest's first green Euro MP, she is finding | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
her way in Brussels. Are we on level three now? So we didn't need to come | :42:06. | :42:13. | |
through there. Let's go back this way. Now we're going to be late We | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
are heading to the group medting, so were coming with you. I keep getting | :42:20. | :42:28. | |
lost. These are Green MEPs `nd their staff. It is nice to be in ` big | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
group of greens. Someone who is spelt at home here for 20 ydars is | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
Graham Watson. He has led the liberal group. Yeah, he is chairing | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
the climate Parliament, thotgh not for much longer. Everywhere he goes, | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
old friends and colleagues offer up sympathy. I am sorry to hear you | :42:51. | :42:57. | |
were leaving. That's very khnd of you. You know, that is politics It | :42:58. | :43:05. | |
is time to move on. I've enjoyed the 20 years I've had here and H feel | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
I've done a good job to represent my constituents. I think changd is | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
generally a healthy thing. One thing nobody will miss is the kind of | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
modern art that is on the w`lls I'm not sure quite where it comds from, | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
but it is not always... If xou take this piece, for example, of the most | :43:27. | :43:35. | |
inspired design. What you sde here are sacks full of paper. With so | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
many people leaving parliamdnt, the officers have to be cleared. And | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
with members having to leavd their offices before the inaugural session | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
in Strasbourg, there is rather a lot of work for the shredding m`chines | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
and those who are responsible for clearing the mess. These ard my | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
officers. This is my assist`nt from Estonia. Good experience, it will be | :44:05. | :44:12. | |
gone now. I will be transferring it to the new member. This is where I | :44:13. | :44:20. | |
have generally work from. As you can see, it is full of packing cases. I | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
suppose this is one particular memento. This was my 50th bhrthday. | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
I was leader of the Liberal Democrat group and I was honoured to have the | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
president of the EU commisshon to celebrate my birthday with le. I've | :44:36. | :44:43. | |
had a few laughs as I come `cross papers, things I'd forgotten about | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
entirely. And inevitably a few regrets as well, as I've cole across | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
mementos of friends or colldagues who moved on. But I think the | :44:54. | :45:00. | |
one. It starts you thinking in one. It starts you thinking in | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
different ways. I take the view that you move on to new things and if you | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
have a setback, as I've had at the polls, you pick yourself up and | :45:13. | :45:21. | |
start all over again. Beford he dusts himself down, he is hdre for | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
one last go. Now you can absolutely spilled the beans and give ts all | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
the dirt on what happens in Brussels. Was it your dream to see a | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
United States of Europe with the president at the top replachng the | :45:36. | :45:42. | |
Queen? Know, good lord. I fdel very privileged to have represented | :45:43. | :45:51. | |
Britain in Parliament. I wotld not describe it in those terms. I do | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
believe there is a lot to bd gained from working together in more and | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
more areas. Europe is about dealing with the challenges of | :46:02. | :46:03. | |
globalisation. That requires closer union. But the end policy mtst | :46:04. | :46:14. | |
therefore be United States? Do you think Britain is on the long but | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
steady road to the exit door? No, I very much hope it's not. I really | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
think the people of this cotntry, when it comes to it, will not wish | :46:27. | :46:36. | |
to leave the EU at any time. Why is Mr Miliband toughening his stance on | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
Europe? He is being realisthc. He is saying we want reform, which we do | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
need, because we need to look at growth in the future. Is it | :46:47. | :46:55. | |
democratic? The EU? Yes, it has the European Parliament and the council | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
which is elected by people of the member states. Of course it is the | :46:59. | :47:07. | |
democracy. Unelected offici`ls make the decisions. They are the | :47:08. | :47:15. | |
equivalent of civil servants. The commissioners make the proposals but | :47:16. | :47:17. | |
they do not make the decisions in the end. That is up to the directly | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
elected European Parliament and the Council of ministers. Where do you | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
think you went wrong in your election campaign? I think we were | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
onto a hiding because voters wanted to punish the two parties of the | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
coalition who've had to raise taxes and cut public spending to bring | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
Britain out of the recession. Tories lost seats and we lost seats. UKIP | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
have identified this dissatisfaction, especially with | :47:49. | :47:50. | |
Europe, and have positioned themselves in a place you are not. I | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
think the attraction of UKIP, as it were, is not really about Etrope. It | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
is anti`politics. People ard fed up with politicians, they don't like | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
how people have overpromised and underdelivered. They want to see a | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
different sort of politician. I understand that, but UKIP is not the | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
answer. Is it galling that xou are going, you knew that place hnside | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
out, you know how it works, you speak several languages, and the | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
people coming in in considerable numbers just want the place to be | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
destroyed? I believe in democracy, and those are the people who devote | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
to send, they must be the pdople who represent us. So whether voters | :48:37. | :48:44. | |
right, do you think? The voters are always right in a democracy. And | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
Claire Moody is a fantastic young woman. It is great for Labotr to | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
have an MEP in the south`west. It is not surprising you would sax that. I | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
tell you, she will work has socks off for the south`west, reg`rdless | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
of the party she works for. She is a cracking woman. Thank you. Next | :49:07. | :49:13. | |
year, over 3 million young people will be entitled to vote in their | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
first general election. Thex will play a crucial part in deciding who | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
will form next government. Hf they do turn out, how will they vote | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
We've been finding out at Britain's biggest gathering of young people, | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
Glastonbury. It is 44 years since the first | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
festival. Michael Evers says politics gives Glastonbury soul He | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
himself is a Labour man and was a candidate in the 1997 gener`l | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
election. Now, you might expect a new generation of voters to be | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
flocking to his party. But what young people have been tellhng me | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
suggests otherwise. Given Glastonbury's green leanings, | :49:58. | :49:59. | |
perhaps it is not a surprisd many say they would vote that wax. Green | :50:00. | :50:07. | |
Party. Green Party. Labour. Green Party. Conservative. He's not the | :50:08. | :50:17. | |
only one. Polls reckon a qu`rter of youngsters may want David C`meron to | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
continue. Edging towards thd Conservatives. They were paxing | :50:25. | :50:33. | |
tribute to Tony Benn in Glastonbury 's political corner. We will never | :50:34. | :50:43. | |
forget what you gave to him. It was the most intense and great privilege | :50:44. | :50:51. | |
to be here with him. But wh`t was striking was attitudes towards | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
1`party which once attracted many youthful boats. Not one of xou would | :50:56. | :51:05. | |
vote Lib Dem? No. While thex are not getting the protest votes, they are | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
not going to UKIP, either. No, not UKIP, not BNP, no one like that | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
Politics does feature large at Glastonbury. This giant poster wall | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
highlights some of the issuds. One person who feels at home here is the | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
been to ask him who he thinks been to ask him who he thinks | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
first`time voters will go for. In 1979, the first chance I had, I | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
didn't vote. I couldn't see a difference between Jim Call`ghan and | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
Margaret Thatcher. You can hmagine what a face palm that is for me now. | :51:45. | :51:51. | |
When young people don't votd for the first time, I don't lose fahth. I | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
ended up rather politicised, so they are not without hope. It is | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
difficult. If I couldn't tell the difference back then when L`bour and | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
Conservatives were on opposhte sides of the spectrum, how diffictlt must | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
it be for Young people now, when the similarities between Cameron and | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
Miliband are sometimes diffhcult to see? You voted Lib Dem at the last | :52:15. | :52:25. | |
three. That was tactical voting I'm frustratingly the first past the | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
post system. You work on `` complimentary about the manhfesto. I | :52:31. | :52:39. | |
was, it was a good manifesto, but what happened to? It was put in the | :52:40. | :52:46. | |
rubbish bin. So feel betraydd. Young people are looking at the m`instream | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
parties and thinking, how c`n we believe what they are saying? Do you | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
feel the mainstream has movdd away from you? You went to join the | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
occupied protest, you went to Bristol and supported them. That | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
protest went nowhere, didn't it Idealism is about questioning the | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
system and looking at what the problems are. We're activists who | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
are here, young people who done great work focusing on corporations | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
who pay no tax in the UK. This is a high concern among all voters. | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
You've been singing protest songs for more than 30 years. Do xou ever | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
feel it is in vain? Now, I don't think music is the first pl`ce | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
people turn to for the voicd of their generation. It is mord likely | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
to be YouTube, Twitter. Mushc is no longer the vanguard medium ht was in | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
the 1980s. My job is to encourage people. Tony Benn was our p`trons | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
are so many years and is no longer with us, but he is here in spirit. | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
We ever poster at the front of the stage which has the epitaph he asked | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
for his help. We are here to encourage the audience to bdlieve | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
they can change the world. That is how it works. Only the audidnce can | :54:07. | :54:14. | |
change the world. Billy Bragg trying to stoke up some passion. What is | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
most striking is that young people have given up on political hssues. | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
Greenpeace is doing a roaring trade here. It is that so many ard | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
disillusioned with party politics and may simply not vote in the | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
election. Let's pick up on some of those | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
points Billy Bragg made. Do you agree young people can be brought | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
back into the political fold? Absolutely. I do lots of work with | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
young people. There are so lany these days who are not interested in | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
politics because they don't know enough about it. But becausd we are | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
not doing proper citizenship, proper politics teaching in our schools, it | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
is off the radar for most young people. They don't understand | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
everything that happens in our lives is determined by politics. When you | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
talk with young people, there is a great organisation which enthuses | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
young people. At the beginnhng sessions they are not infusdd, but | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
by the end, they are. I want them to vote. The truth is, this is a | :55:21. | :55:27. | |
difficult time to be young. No jobs for life, pensions are diffhcult, | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
zero hours contracts and all that sort of thing. But also, it is a | :55:31. | :55:37. | |
great time to be young. The world is at their feet. The country hs | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
stable, there are no wars for them to buy it. So perhaps there is | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
nothing to vote about. Well, when you think about the huge ch`llenges | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
we face, like climate changd, rapid world population growth, | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
internationally organised crime these are massive challenges. But | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
our newspapers dumbed down political debate and we do not hear about it. | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
Well, their lives are quite civilised. They go to Glastonbury | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
and have a fantastic weekend with their brands. If you pick up | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
newspapers or watch televishon in continental Europe, you will learn | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
about politics. Here, you ldarn about the lives of celebrithes. | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
There is a dumbing down of political debate. That is true, but young | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
people care passionately about these issues. They don't vote bec`use they | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
don't relate the issues to changing the world by the ballot box. So I | :56:36. | :56:42. | |
feel we have do somehow enthuse young people about the power of | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
politics, the power of putthng that cross on a piece of paper. Of course | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
I'm Labour, proud to be Labour, but I don't care how people votd. I just | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
want them to vote. Is it different in Europe? I think it is different | :56:59. | :57:06. | |
in many continental countrids. Do they vote at 18? In larger numbers? | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
They do vote at 18 and in l`rger numbers. We have one of the lower | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
youth turnouts. Is it a failure of politicians? Actually, it is their | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
responsibility. Yes, but I think there is a failure of polithcians. | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
They do not reach out enough. They are seen as we had people from a | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
different class. Sort of an alien species. The truth is, you could not | :57:32. | :57:39. | |
put a fag paper between your different policies. Oh, yes you | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
could. Like what? Really significant differences. Quality jobs for young | :57:47. | :57:54. | |
people. But everybody wants quality jobs for young people. Nobody is | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
campaigning saying, we do not want that. But they are in government and | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
they are not providing qualhty jobs for young people. You just lentioned | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
zero hours. Other policies different? Yes. Under Gordon Brown, | :58:08. | :58:16. | |
we saw a massive expansion of economy under casinos and alcohol | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
consumption. That is not wh`t we want. But it is a bit of `` a | :58:20. | :58:27. | |
percentage point in spending here, a degree of tweaking there. There are | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
not the differences they usdd to be. Our society at the moment is riven | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
with inequality and it is gdtting worse. We want fairer poliches that | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
deliver for all people in this country. Well, another week has | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
raised by. Here is the update in 60 seconds. | :58:48. | :58:54. | |
A children's charity in Bristol claimed young people were bding | :58:55. | :59:01. | |
failed social services enter a state of crisis. It believes the | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
government is falling short on its promise to end child povertx by | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
2020. A Gloucester MP resigned from his | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
job as aid to the Foreign Mhnister. Richard Graham says he is standing | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
down to focus on regeneration plans in his city. Gloucester is ` classic | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
marginal seat. I'm sure it will be a castle. | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
A ban on a drug came into force It is used by some people in Bristol. | :59:29. | :59:35. | |
Being caught with it once whll lead to a verbal warning and repdated use | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
could lead to step the sentdnces. And unions have described plans | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
before councils to share all their staff and services as scary. They | :59:45. | :59:50. | |
are exploring the idea to s`ve money. | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
You are from the Forest of Dean what do you think about councils | :59:57. | :00:04. | |
sharing staff? It is potenthally interesting, because of the | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
phenomenal cuts local counchls are having to deal with. Clearlx, they | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
want to ensure they say flyhng front line services. `` a safeguard. We | :00:12. | :00:23. | |
certainly do have to put thd emphasis on creating jobs in the | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
private sector. That is one area I am pleased that the governmdnt has | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
been hugely successful in. There are over a million private sector jobs | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
and we have lots of young pdople in apprenticeships. So there is hope. | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
Fancy a job on a local council? I don't know what I will do ndxt. I | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
want to take a holiday and have a good think of it. Will you be | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
earning lots of money? It ddpends what I want to do. That's all we | :00:55. | :01:02. | |
have time for. Thank you to our guests. Good luck with whatdver you | :01:03. | :01:10. | |
do. You can contact us on Twitter. Have a good week. | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
been problems elsewhere in Europe, but I take your point. Thanks to | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
both of you today. Back to you, Andrew. | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
Now, there have been some less-than-helpful remarks | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
about the way the Labour party makes policy, and they've come | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
from the man who is heading Labour's Policy Review, Jon Cruddas. | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
In a speech to party activists he was recorded saying that, | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
"instrumentalised, cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
groups and our press strategies and our desire for a topline in terms of | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
the 24 hour media cycle, dominate and crowd out any | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
He added that Labour's election strategy was being hampered by a | :01:45. | :01:54. | |
The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls was asked about what Mr Cruddas had | :01:55. | :02:07. | |
I talked to him a couple of days ago, and he's not frustrated, he is | :02:08. | :02:16. | |
excited about his policy agenda He is frustrated that one report of 250 | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
pages gets reduced down. So it's our fault? That is the way we live in | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
the world in which we live, but we have big ideas about devolution | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
long term infrastructure spending and new manufacturing policy, new | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
investment in skills, big changes which, let's be honest, I'm really | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
on George Osborne's agenda. How serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
let's call it an unforced error You go to the party speeches, and you | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
don't know who is in the audience. There is no need for something as | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
serious as this to happen. It's hugely serious because it speaks | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
about something people have felt for a long time, that they have doled | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
out little nuggets of policy but no overarching story. There was a quite | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
saying the Ed Miliband has given as a shopping list, not a narrative. | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
When people in the party say things that are true, it's very difficult | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
for people to explain it away. Not sure Mr Miliband can win here. He | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
was recently criticised for not having policies. Now he's being | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
criticised for having too many. I think this line of attack is | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
particularly wounding because he prides himself on being a politician | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
of ideas. That is his unique selling point, and the weight that David | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
Cameron's prime ministerial nature is his selling point. So it is | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
wounding. If I was the Labour Party, before announcing any policy, I | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
would ask can help fix us on the economy? It might be radicalised | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
immolating on its own terms, but it's politically useless. -- radical | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
and innovative on its own terms I don't think any member of the public | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
does not think they are not radical enough or creative enough. If | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
anything, it's the opposite. They are a bit nervous about what a | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
Labour government could do and nervous about the economic | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
reputation. Reassurance, caution, maybe a bit of timidity might be the | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
notions that inform their policies or should inform their policies in | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
night -- my view, not the opposite. I am worried for Jon Cruddas, | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
because anyone who questions the Labour Party are part of the nexus | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
of the banking industry who are terrified of a Labour victory. It's | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
interesting that this goes to the heart of the debate in the Labour | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
Party, at the highest levels, do they put a big offer to the British | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
people, or a little off, John Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
offer? Ed Miliband says that his ideas about freezing energy prices | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
and rent controls are a big offer, but his policy chief clearly has | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
real concerns that they don't go far enough. How important a figure is | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
John Cruddas in the project? He is hell of the -- head of the policy | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
review and has a huge amount of power, and so him slagging off the | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
policy review is a bad moment. He is trusted in that inner circle and the | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
problem for Ed Miliband from the odd is that he has people with strong | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
opinions, Maurice clasping is another, big thinkers, but they | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
maybe don't have a precaution that a professional politician might have | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
in terms of giving bland answers. So, David Cameron had to apologise | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
after his former director of communications was convicted | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
of phone hacking. David Cameron's other former friend, | :05:32. | :05:33. | |
Rebekah Brooks, had a better day. At the same trial, she was cleared | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
of all the charges against her. I take full responsibility for | :05:37. | :05:46. | |
employing Andy Coulson. I did some on the basis of undertakings I was | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
given by him about phone hacking and those turned out not to be the case. | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
I always said that if they turned out to be wrong, I would make a full | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
and frank apology, and I do that today. I am extremely sorry that I | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
employed him. It was the wrong decision. I'm clear about that. When | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
I was arrested it was in the middle of a maelstrom of controversy, | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
politics and of comment. Some of that was there, but much of it was | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
not, so I'm grateful to the jury for coming to that decision. Not been a | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
great week for David Cameron. Andy Coulson found guilty, and another | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
person who had worked in Downing Street is also charged on an | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
unrelated issue. And he was 26- on the wrong end in Brussels, and there | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
is a poll this morning which no one seems to be talking about which puts | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
Labour nine points ahead. Before all that there was Dominic Cummings | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
criticising the Downing Street operation is being shambolic. Is Mr | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
Cameron's judgement becoming an issue? Yes, what often happens when | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
one leader is under pressure for long enough, as Ed Miliband has been | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
the six months, we get bored. We then switch the Gatling gun to the | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
other guy. So David Cameron going into the Conference season might be | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
the man under pressure. The whole Andy Coulson saga has raised | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
questions about his judgement and those around him, but any political | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
damage she was going to sustain over Andy Coulson and phone hacking was | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
sustained years ago -- he was going. It was Brother beyond the | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
date the News of the World was closed down three summers ago - it | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
was probably on the date. As the hacking trial cut through to the | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
general public? Or is it just as media and political obsessives? I am | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
sure it has cut through in some way but it didn't necessarily happen in | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
recent days, more likely in recent years. It was some time ago that | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
Andy Coulson resigned in high profile circumstances. It has had a | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
slow burning effect over a few years, and the Prime Minister fears | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
the Big Bang. But there is one theme and words that unites this week with | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that is that the Prime Minister can be | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical in not asking big question is when | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
there was a lot in the public domain about what had happened that the | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
News of the World. And he was lackadaisical with Juncker. He made | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
a calculation that Angela Merkel would support him and it turned out | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
she couldn't. Maybe he needs to change. He was late in understanding | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
what was happening in Germany when both the Christian Democrats, her | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
party, wanted Juncker, and when the actual Murdoch press of Germany said | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
that they wanted him as well. He never saw that. He only looks at one | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
person in Germany, Angela Merkel, and it is a grand coalition, and the | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
SDP felt strongly about it. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
Minister. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He s | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
very good in an essay, and the SA gets a double first the essay. Is Ed | :08:44. | :08:51. | |
Miliband right to be angry? He has John Cruddas attacking him, and that | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
is the news leading in the Sunday Times, and has not been a good week | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
the Prime Minister and in which Mr Miliband has a bigger lead in the | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
polls than he has had some time so he must be wondering why they are | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
having a go at him. He made a tactical error in Prime Minister's | :09:07. | :09:08. | |
Questions by asking all the questions about Andy Coulson. The | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
one at the end about what Gus O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
the extreme. Politicians can be out of touch on all sides of the house. | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
The problem is, and there is a great quote by William Hague, is that the | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
Tory party has two modes, panic and complacency. At the moment they are | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
complacent. They think Ed Miliband will lose Labour election but I | :09:30. | :09:31. | |
don't know if they have a positive plan about how to win it. -- lose | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
Labour the election. Now, we knew Prince Charles had | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
trouble keeping his views about the environment | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
and the countryside to himself, but that's not the only thing he's | :09:40. | :09:41. | |
passionate about according to a radio four documentary to be | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
broadcast this lunchtime. Here's former Education Secretary, | :09:45. | :09:46. | |
David Blunkett on how the Prince had once attempted to influence | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
his policy on schools. I would explain that our policy was | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
not to expand grammar schools, and he didn't like that. He was very | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
keen that we should go back to a different era where youngsters had | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
what he would've seen as the opportunity to escape from their | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
background, where as I wanted to change their background. | :10:12. | :10:13. | |
And you can hear that documentary - it's called The Royal Activist | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
Does it matter that Prince Charles is getting involved in this kind of | :10:17. | :10:25. | |
policy, released behind closed doors question mark on the issue of | :10:26. | :10:27. | |
grammar schools is not clear anybody listened to him. I think it is a | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
principal problem. I've spoken to form a government members, and | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
judging by what they say, if anything we underestimate how much | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
contacting makes with ministers And how many representations he makes on | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
the issue that interest him. There has been an attempt to keep it | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
hidden. It's almost a theological question about whether the future | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
monarch should be involved in the public realm. If he wants to | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
influence policy, shouldn't we know what policy he's trying to influence | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
and what position he is taking? Sewer speech is better than private | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so a speech. Prince Charles's views are | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
interesting. He's not a straight down the light reactionary. He makes | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
a left-wing case for rammer schools. There is an interview with him in | :11:18. | :11:19. | |
the Financial Times in which his argument in favour for architectural | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
development takes into account affordable housing in the wake which | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
no one would have suspected. He has interesting views, but I'm not | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
convinced on the point of principle whether someone is dashing his | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
position should be speaking. Your former employer 's famously | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
described him as the SDP king. You slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66 | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
and still an apprentice. He's in a difficult position. We know what the | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
powers of the monarch are. They are to advise in courage and warned the | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
Prime Minister of the day. These in the difficult position where the | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
problem for him is that there is a line that isn't really defined, but | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
you slightly feel he just gets a bit too close to it and possibly crosses | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
that line with the lobbying that goes on. I think the worrying thing | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
is that at some point he will become King and will he know that he has | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
got to work within that framework? He is somebody that cannot win | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
either. If he doesn't take an interest in public policy, he will | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
be thought to be a bit of a waster, going round opening town halls, and | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
when he does have an interest we think, hey, you are in the monarchy, | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
stay out. There's an interesting parallel with first ladies who are | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
encouraged to find a controversial charitable project. Michelle Obama | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
has bought childhood obesity, and that is the standard thing. | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
Everybody knows that that is a bad thing, but you are not offering | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
solutions that are party political. I feel there must be a middle way | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
with what he should be able to do about finding big causes he can | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
complain about without getting stuck into lobbying ministers. Which can | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
become a party political issue. He has had some influence on | :13:05. | :13:06. | |
architecture, because the buildings we are putting up to date are better | :13:07. | :13:08. | |
than the ones we used to put up The Daily Politics is on BBC 2 | :13:09. | :13:10. | |
at 11:00am We'll be back here | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
at the same time next week. Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:21. | :13:24. |