28/09/2014 Sunday Politics West


28/09/2014

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


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Morning folks and welcome to The Sunday Politics,

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live from the Conservative Conference in Birmingham.

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There will be one less Conservative MP here after Mark Reckless defected

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He joins us live from his constituency, where he has

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It has not been the best of starts for the Prime Minister, as he

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arrives in Birmingham for the last Tory conference before the election.

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On top of the Reckless defection, a junior Tory minister has resigned

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RAF jets have carried out their first mission over Iraq

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In the West ` keeping it in the family.

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Now the neice of this Somerset MP has been chosen

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So is blood thicker than water in politics?

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In London, how the richest 1% are pulling further away, and why those

:01:29.:01:33.

priced out are choosing to move away.

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And joining me, three of the country's most loyal journalists,

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who sadly have yet to resign or defect to our inferior rivals.

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Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.

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And, of course, they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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And you too can get involved by using the hashtag #BBCSP.

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At the current rate of Tory resignations,

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Mr Cameron could be speaking to an empty hall when he makes his keynote

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address to the Tory conference here in Birmingham tomorrow.

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It's been a classic car crash of a start to the conference, with a UKIP

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defection, a minister shamed into resignation by a sex scandal and

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Ed Miliband's memory lapses now look like a little local difficulty.

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Here's what the Prime Minister had to say

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These things are frustrating and frankly counter-productive and

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rather senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you

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want to get the deficit down, if you want to build a stronger Britain

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that we can be proud of, there is only one option, which is to have a

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Conservative government after the next election.

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And Mark Reckless joins me now from Rochester.

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Welcome to the programme. Why did you lie to all your Conservative

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colleagues and mislead those who elected you? Well, I am keeping

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faith with my constituents and keeping my promises to them. You

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heard the Prime Minister saying that the Conservative led government was

:03:18.:03:20.

dealing with the deficit and cutting immigration. The reality is, we have

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increased the national debt by more in five years than even Labour

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managed in 13, and immigration is back up to the levels we saw under

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Labour. I believe in the promises I made in 2010, and I want to keep my

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words to my electorate, not least to deal with the deficit, cut

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immigration, reform the political system, to localise powers back to

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the community, particularly over house-building. The government has

:03:46.:03:48.

broken its word on all those things are. I want to keep my word to my

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voters here, and that is why I have done what I have done, by moving to

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UKIP. You have not kept your words to your Conservative constituency

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chairman. You assured him 48 hours ago that you would not defect, and

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you left his voice mail on the Conservative Party chairman's office

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telephone, missing to come to Birmingham to campaign for the

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Tories. This is your voice mail .. I have just picked up your e-mail ..

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So, Friday night, telling Grant Shapps you are coming to Birmingham

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to campaign for the Tories. The next day, you are joining UKIP. Why did

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you are a? I sounded a bit more hesitant on that call than I usually

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do, and I am not sure if that was the full conversation. But you

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cannot discuss these things in advance, you have to make a

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decision. I have decided the future of this country is better served by

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UKIP then it is by the Conservative Party under David Cameron. I made a

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lot of promises to my constituents, and I want to keep those promises.

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That is why I am moving to UKIP so I can deliver the change this

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country really needs. In May of this year, you said that Nigel Farage,

:05:27.:05:33.

quote, poses the most serious threat to a Tory victory at the election.

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So, you agree, voting UKIP means a Labour government? I think voting

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UKIP means getting UKIP. While in the past a disproportionate number

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of UKIP people were ex-Conservatives, now, they are

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winning a lot more people, from all parties. People are so disillusioned

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with the political class in Westminster, that they have not

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voted often for a generation. Those are the people Nigel Farage is

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inspiring, and frankly, he has also inspired me. What he has done in the

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last 20 years, building his party, getting people from all walks of

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life, sending up for ordinary people, I think deserves support.

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That is a key reason why I am moving. UKIP are now the agents of

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change. You said it poses them a serious threat to a Tory victory? My

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ambition is not a Tory victory. We made all of these promises in 2 10

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as Conservatives, and they have been broken. We now hear from David

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Cameron about English votes for English laws, supported by Nick

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Clegg as well, but that is what we said in our manifesto in 2010, and

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we have done absolutely nothing about it. It is not credible now to

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pretend that you are going to do those things. They have omitted to

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give every Scot ?1600 per year in definitely. If you want to stand up

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for the English taxpayer, and really tackle the debt, then UKIP are the

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party who will do that. But there is nothing principled about this, this

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is just an attempt to save your skin. You said UKIP stopped you

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winning in 2005 - UKIP did not stand in 2010, and you won. You are

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frightened that UKIP would beat you in the next election, this is to

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save your skin to me you think I am doing this because I am frightened,

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you think this is the easy option, to abandon my position in

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Parliament, but my principles on the line? On the contrary, you look at

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MPs who have moved party before almost none of them have given their

:07:46.:07:48.

voters to chance to have a say on what they have done. I am asking

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permission from my voters, and I am moving to UKIP because I believe

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many of the people in my constituency have been let down by a

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Conservative led government, and that what UKIP is saying appeals to

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decent, hard-working people, who want to see real change in our

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country. If they do not agree, then they can vote in a by-election and

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have their say on who they want to be their MP. I am being open and

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honest, giving people a say. I am trying to do the right thing by my

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constituents, and whatever the risk is to me personally, I think it is

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the right thing to do. It is what MPs should be in politics to try and

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do for the people they represent. Your defection, coming after Douglas

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Carswell's, confirms the claim that UKIP is largely a depository for

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disaffected right-wing Tories like yourself, isn't it? On the contrary,

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the number of people I met in Doncaster yesterday was

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extraordinary. When I first went to Conservative conferences 20 years

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ago, there was some enthusiasm for politics, I remember Norman Tebbit

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speaking against Maastricht, people fought they could change things

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there was real politics. But I do not think you will see that at

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Birmingham this week, it is PR people, lobbyists, corporate, few

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ordinary members of. At Ancaster, people had saved up for months just

:09:16.:09:19.

to get the rail ticket to Doncaster. People who believe in UKIP, who

:09:20.:09:24.

believe in Nigel Farage, who believe in the team, as agents of change,

:09:25.:09:31.

who can actually deal with a political class at Westminster which

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has let able down. We want proper reform to the political system,

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which David Cameron promises but does not deliver. Final question -

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after the next election, the Prime Minister is going to be either David

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Cameron or Ed Miliband, that is the choice, one or the other - who would

:09:52.:09:57.

you prefer? Well, what we would prefer is to get the most UKIP

:09:58.:10:01.

policies implemented. We want a first rate we want to deal with

:10:02.:10:08.

immigration. I asked about who you wanted to be Prime Minister. We will

:10:09.:10:13.

look at the circumstances. We need as many UKIP MPs as possible, to

:10:14.:10:18.

restore trust in politics. If people vote UKIP, they will get UKIP. How

:10:19.:10:31.

serious is this? I think it is very serious. It is the old Tory disease,

:10:32.:10:36.

destroyed John Major, and it has been bubbling away again. It is

:10:37.:10:40.

beginning to feel like the worst days of Labour in the early nineteen

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eighties. It matters, because people care passionately. It is nothing

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like Labour in the early 1980s, it is bad, but it is nothing like that.

:10:51.:10:55.

There are these very strong strands. People like David Davis

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writing a large piece in the Daily Mail attacking the leader on the

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first day of the conference. That is the kind of thing that Labour used

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to do. That is what David Davis does all the time! But this is authentic

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in the sense that there is a real, genuine dispute about Europe. Some

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of us were not around in the 19 0s, but I imagine it is pretty bad.

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There is the short-term problem of the by-election they might lose the

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media problem of the general election which they cannot win if

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UKIP remain anywhere near their current level of support. But in

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many ways the longer term question is the most pressing, which is, does

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it make sense for the Conservative Party to remain one party, or would

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it not be better for the hard-core of 20-30 intransigent Eurosceptics

:11:39.:11:44.

to essentially join UKIP or form their own party? At least the

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Conservatives would become more internally manageable. And probably

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lose the next election. Probably, yes. That is what you are advising

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them? If the reward is to have a coherent party in 15 years' time. It

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is just as well you are a columnist, not a party strategist. I

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was an anorak in the 1980s, who watched the Labour conference on the

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TV. Were you wearing your anorak? Of course I was, that is how sad I am.

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But once again the crisis from UKIP has forced the Prime Minister to

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step in an even more Eurosceptic direction. Said on television what

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he was trying not to say, which is that if he does not get his way in

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the European negotiations, he will recommend to the British people that

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we should go. He began by saying, as I have always said, and when they

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say that, you know they are saying something new. He basically said,

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Britain should not stay if it is not in Britain's interests. I think this

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is big stakes for both the Tories and four UKIP. The Tories are able

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to write off Clacton. Rochester is number 271 on the UKIP friendly

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list. If the Tories win it, big moment for them. If UKIP lose it,

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this strategy of various will be facing a bit of a setback.

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To what extent are Mark Reckless's views shared by Conservative

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The Sunday Politics commissioned an exclusive poll of Conservative

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Pollsters ComRes spoke to over ,000 councillors -

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that's almost an eighth of their council base - and Eleanor Garnier

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There is not a single party conference at the seaside this year,

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and Sunday Politics could not get through them all without a trip to

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the coast. So here we are on the shore in Sussex. There are plenty of

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Conservative councillors here, and Tory MPs as well, but one challenge

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they all face is UKIP, who have got their sights on coastal towns.

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Places like Worthing East and surer and, with high numbers of

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pensioners, providing rich pickings for UKIP. In West Sussex, the Tories

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run the county council, but UKIP are the official opposition, with ten

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councillors. We cannot lose any more ground to UKIP. If we lose any more

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ground, if you look at the way it has swung from us to them, it is

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getting near to being the middle point, where we might start losing

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seats which we have always regarded as safe seats. So, it has got to be

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stemmed, it cannot go any further. Our exclusive survey looked at the

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policy areas where the Conservatives are vulnerable to UKIP. If an EU

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Referendum Bill is called tomorrow, 45% say they would vote to leave,

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39% would stay in. Asked about immigration...

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It was those issues, Europe and immigration, that Mark Reckless said

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were the head of his decision. I promised to cut immigration while

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treating people fairly and humanely. I cannot keep that promise as a

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Conservative, I can keep it as UKIP. When asked if Conservative

:15:29.:15:32.

councillors would like an electoral pact with UKIP in the run-up to the

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general election, one third said they support the idea. 63% are

:15:38.:15:43.

opposed and 7% don't know. Conservative councillors who left

:15:44.:15:48.

the party to join UKIP say it wasn't easy. I left because basically the

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Conservatives left me. I saw it as a difficult decision to change, but

:15:56.:16:00.

what I was seeing with UKIP was freed. Me being able to speak for my

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residents. Back to our survey and on climate change 49% said it was

:16:11.:16:14.

happening, but that humans are not to blame. Our survey showed that 60%

:16:15.:16:22.

think David Cameron was wrong to pursue legalising gay marriage, with

:16:23.:16:27.

31% saying it was the right thing to do and 9% not sure. In Worthing

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councillors said gay marriage was divisive. That has really been an

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issue here, it might have damaged the party slightly, and I think in a

:16:39.:16:46.

way by setting a rule like that it is a very religious thing and it is

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almost trying to play God to make that decision. But some of the

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party's toughest decisions have been over the economy. 56% in our survey

:16:58.:17:02.

thought the spending cuts the Government has so far announced have

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not gone far enough. 6% were not sure. They are prepared for

:17:09.:17:14.

difficult decisions, but local activists say the party's voice must

:17:15.:17:18.

be clearer. I think the message has to be more forceful, it has to be

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specially targeted to the ex-Conservative voters who now vote

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UKIP, especially in this area, the vast majority of UKIP people are

:17:31.:17:34.

disillusioned Conservatives. The message has to be loud and strong,

:17:35.:17:38.

come back and we are the party to give you what you want. With just

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eight months until the general election, the pressure is on and

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local Conservatives are searching for clues to help their party stem

:17:49.:17:54.

the flow of defections. Joining me now is William Hague, the former

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Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the House of Commons.

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Tories like Mark Reckless are defecting to UKIP because they don't

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Tories like Mark Reckless are trust the party leadership to

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deliver on Europe, do they? They believe people like you and David

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Cameron will campaign to stay in and they are right. They said before

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they defected that people should vote Conservative to get a

:18:23.:18:26.

referendum on Europe, and that is right of course. The only way to get

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a referendum is to do that and this is the point, the people should

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decide. However a future government decides it will campaign, it should

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be the people of the country who decide. Can you say to our viewers

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this morning that is not enough powers are repatriated back to

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Britain, you would want to come out, can you say that? Our objective

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is to get those powers and stay in. The answer to the question is I

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won't be deciding, David Cameron won't be deciding, you the voters

:19:03.:19:08.

will be deciding. But you have to give us your view. If you don't get

:19:09.:19:14.

enough powers back, would you vote to come out and recommended? Our

:19:15.:19:19.

objective is to get those powers and be able to stay in. You just get

:19:20.:19:24.

endless speculation years in advance. I will decide at the time

:19:25.:19:29.

how I will vote. Surely that is the rational position for everyone to

:19:30.:19:34.

take but I want a referendum to take place. I understand that. As you

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pointed out to Mark Reckless just now, unless there is a Conservative

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government, people won't have that choice. Under a Labour government

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they will not get a choice at all. Our survey of Tory councillors shows

:19:53.:19:56.

that almost 50% would vote to leave the EU in a referendum. I think it

:19:57.:20:04.

showed, wasn't it 45, and 39%, but again, I'm pretty sure they will

:20:05.:20:08.

decide at the time. They will want to see what a future government

:20:09.:20:14.

achieves in a renegotiation before they decide what to vote in a

:20:15.:20:19.

referendum. Unless David Cameron is Prime Minister and there is a

:20:20.:20:22.

Conservative government, there will not be a renegotiation. That is a

:20:23.:20:31.

point you have made four times. I think they have got it. Your Cabinet

:20:32.:20:35.

colleague says we should not be scared of quitting the EU, but you

:20:36.:20:38.

went native in the Foreign Office, didn't you? You used to be a

:20:39.:20:43.

Eurosceptic, you are now the Foreign Office line man. No, I don't think

:20:44.:20:50.

so! We brought back the first reduced European budget ever in

:20:51.:20:54.

history. Even Margaret Thatcher .. Leaving the EU scares you, doesn't

:20:55.:21:01.

it? Not much scares me after 26 years in politics but we want to do

:21:02.:21:05.

the best thing for the country. Where we scared when we got us out

:21:06.:21:14.

of liability for Eurozone bailouts? We were not scared of anybody.

:21:15.:21:18.

People said we couldn't achieve things but we negotiated these

:21:19.:21:23.

things. We can do that with a wider negotiation in Europe. Mr Reckless

:21:24.:21:31.

says he cannot keep the Conservative promise to tackle immigration. You

:21:32.:21:36.

have failed to keep your promise to keep net immigration down. You

:21:37.:21:51.

promised to cut it below 100,00 , you failed. It is over 200,000

:21:52.:22:06.

people. We have cut it from 250 000 in 2005, the last figures were

:22:07.:22:15.

240,000. I think we can file that under F four failed. It includes

:22:16.:22:21.

students, we want them in the country. You knew that when you made

:22:22.:22:29.

the promise. But has it come down? Yes, it has. Have we stopped

:22:30.:22:34.

the promise. But has it come down? coming here because of our benefit

:22:35.:22:38.

system? Yes. None of that happened under Labour. If Mark Reckless had

:22:39.:22:43.

his way, it would be more likely we would have a Labour government. They

:22:44.:22:47.

have an open door policy on immigration. You are not just losing

:22:48.:22:53.

MPs to UKIP, you are losing voters. Polling by Michael Ashcroft shows

:22:54.:23:00.

that 20% of people who voted Tory in 2010 have abandoned youth and three

:23:01.:23:03.

quarters of them are voting UKIP now. We will see in the general

:23:04.:23:09.

election. Politics is very fluid in this country and we shouldn't deny

:23:10.:23:15.

that in any way but UKIP thought they were going to win the

:23:16.:23:19.

by-election in Newark, we had a thumping Conservative victory, and I

:23:20.:23:24.

think opinion polls are snapshots of opinion now. They are not forecast

:23:25.:23:29.

of the general election and we will be doing everything we can to get

:23:30.:23:34.

our message across. Today we are announcing 3 million more

:23:35.:23:37.

apprenticeships in the next Parliament. I think this is what

:23:38.:23:41.

people will be voting on, rather than who has defected. Your activist

:23:42.:23:50.

base once parked with UKIP. Our survey shows a third of Tory

:23:51.:23:55.

councillors would like a formal pact with UKIP. Why not? It shows two

:23:56.:24:02.

thirds are against it. No, it shows one third want it. I read the

:24:03.:24:10.

figures, it showed 67% don't want it. We are not going to make a pact

:24:11.:24:16.

with other parties, and they don't work in the British electoral system

:24:17.:24:24.

even if they were desirable. You are sharing the Cabinet committee on

:24:25.:24:28.

English votes for English laws. Is further devolution for Scotland

:24:29.:24:32.

conditional on progress towards English devolution? No, the

:24:33.:24:36.

commitment to Scotland is unconditional. We will meet the

:24:37.:24:41.

commitments to Scotland but we believe, we the Conservatives

:24:42.:24:45.

believe, that in tandem with that we have to resolve these questions

:24:46.:24:48.

about fairness to the rest of the UK as well. That will depend on other

:24:49.:24:54.

parties or the general election result. Are you committed to the

:24:55.:24:59.

Gordon Brown timetable? Yes, absolutely. So you are committed to

:25:00.:25:04.

producing draft legislation by Burns night, that is at the end of

:25:05.:25:09.

January. Will you produce proposals for English votes on English laws by

:25:10.:25:16.

then? We will, but whether they are agreed across the parties will

:25:17.:25:22.

depend on the other parties. There was no sign that they were agreeable

:25:23.:25:29.

at the Labour conference. We will produce our ideas on the same

:25:30.:25:34.

timetable as the timetable for Scottish devolution. You will

:25:35.:25:37.

therefore bring forward proposals for English votes for English laws

:25:38.:25:43.

by the end of January? Yes. And will you attempt to get them on the

:25:44.:25:48.

statute book before the election? The commitment in Scotland is to

:25:49.:25:52.

legislate after the election. You will publish a bill beforehand? We

:25:53.:25:57.

will publish proposals beforehand. I don't exclude doing something before

:25:58.:26:03.

the election, but the Scottish timetable is to legislate for the

:26:04.:26:07.

further devolution after the general election, whoever wins the election.

:26:08.:26:12.

Have you given thought as to what English votes for English laws would

:26:13.:26:20.

mean? I have thought a lot of it over 15 years. I am not going to

:26:21.:26:24.

prejudge what the outcome will be, but it does mean in essence that

:26:25.:26:29.

when decisions are taken, decisions that only affect England or only

:26:30.:26:35.

England and Wales, then only the MPs from England and Wales should be

:26:36.:26:39.

making those decisions. You can achieve that in many different

:26:40.:26:43.

ways. Is that it for English devolution, is that what it amounts

:26:44.:26:50.

to? That is devolution to England if you like, but within England there

:26:51.:26:53.

is a lot of other devolution going on and we might well want to extend

:26:54.:26:59.

that further. We have given more freedom to local authorities, there

:27:00.:27:03.

is a lot of scope to do more of that, but that in itself is not the

:27:04.:27:07.

answer to the problem of what happens at Westminster. You haven't

:27:08.:27:17.

just given Scotland more devolution or planned to do it, you have also

:27:18.:27:21.

enshrined the Barnett formula and that seems to be in perpetuity. It

:27:22.:27:26.

is widely regarded as being unfair to Wales and many of the poorer

:27:27.:27:31.

English regions. Why do you perpetuate it? It will become less

:27:32.:27:35.

relevant overtime if more tax-raising powers... It goes all

:27:36.:27:44.

the way back to the 1970s, we made a commitment on that, we will keep our

:27:45.:27:48.

commitments to Scotland as more -- but as more tax-raising powers

:27:49.:27:55.

devolved, the Barnett formula is less significant. If you transfer ?5

:27:56.:28:00.

billion of tax-raising powers to Scotland, 5 billion comes off the

:28:01.:28:06.

Barnett formula? It will be a lot more complicated than that, but yes,

:28:07.:28:12.

as their own decisions about taxation are made, the grand from

:28:13.:28:16.

Westminster will go down. And you can guarantee that if there is a

:28:17.:28:19.

majority Conservative government, there will be English votes for

:28:20.:28:25.

English laws after the election Yes, I stress again that there are

:28:26.:28:29.

different ways of doing it but if there is no cross-party agreement on

:28:30.:28:33.

that, the Conservatives will produce our proposals and campaign for them

:28:34.:28:38.

in the general election. Don't go away because I want to move on to

:28:39.:28:40.

some other matters. Now to the fight against so-called

:28:41.:28:46.

Islamic State terrorists. Yesterday, RAF Tornado jets carried

:28:47.:28:48.

out their first flights over Iraq since MPs gave their approval for

:28:49.:28:51.

air-strikes against the militants. When you face a situation with

:28:52.:29:00.

psychobabble -- psychopathic killers who have already brutally beheaded

:29:01.:29:05.

one of our own citizens, who have already launched and tried to

:29:06.:29:09.

execute plots in our own country to maim innocent people, we have a

:29:10.:29:14.

choice - we can either stand back from this and say it is too

:29:15.:29:18.

difficult, let's let someone else try to keep our country safe, or we

:29:19.:29:23.

take the correct decision to have a full, comprehensive strategy but

:29:24.:29:27.

let's be prepared to play our role to make sure these people cannot do

:29:28.:29:29.

not trust harm. And William Hague is still with me -

:29:30.:29:33.

until July he was, of course, Why have only six Tornado jets being

:29:34.:29:47.

mobilised? Do not assume that is all that will be taking part in this

:29:48.:29:51.

operation. That is all that has been announced and I do not think we

:29:52.:29:56.

should speculate. Even the Danes are sending more fighter jets. There is

:29:57.:30:02.

no restriction in the House of Commons resolution passed on Friday

:30:03.:30:06.

on what we can do. So why so little? Do not underestimate what

:30:07.:30:11.

our Tornados can do. They have some unique capabilities, capabilities

:30:12.:30:15.

which have been specifically asked for by our allies. When you are on

:30:16.:30:20.

the wrong end of six Tornados, it will not feel like a small effort.

:30:21.:30:23.

But there will be other things which can add to that effort. We are

:30:24.:30:29.

joining in a month after the operation started, we are late, we

:30:30.:30:33.

are behind America, France, Australia, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain,

:30:34.:30:38.

Qatar, one hand tied behind our backs cause of the rule about not

:30:39.:30:43.

attacking Syria - why is the British government leading from behind?

:30:44.:30:48.

First of all, we are a democratic country, and you know all about

:30:49.:30:51.

Parliamentary approval. You could have recalled parliament. We have

:30:52.:30:55.

done that, with a political consensus. Other European countries

:30:56.:31:00.

also took the decision on Friday to send their military assets. Our

:31:01.:31:05.

allies are absolutely content with that, and Britain will play an

:31:06.:31:09.

important role, along with many other nations, including Arab

:31:10.:31:13.

nations. General Sir David Richards Sheriff, who just steps down as the

:31:14.:31:20.

Nato Deputy Supreme Commander, he condemns the spineless lack of

:31:21.:31:24.

leadership and the absence of any credible strategy. It is

:31:25.:31:30.

embarrassing,isn't it? Of course, they turn into armchair generals. We

:31:31.:31:37.

are playing an important role, we are a democratic country. Your

:31:38.:31:41.

viewers will remember, we had a vote last year on military action in

:31:42.:31:46.

Syria and we were defeated in the House of Commons, a bad moment for

:31:47.:31:50.

our foreign policy. We have taken care to bring this forward when we

:31:51.:31:54.

can win a vote in the House of Commons, and that is how we will

:31:55.:32:02.

proceed. The air Chief Marshal until recently in charge of the RAF, he

:32:03.:32:06.

says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq but not Syria. He calls the decision

:32:07.:32:13.

ludicrous. Of course, it DOES make sense to bomb Iraq, because the

:32:14.:32:17.

Iraqi government has asked for our assistance. This came up a lot in

:32:18.:32:24.

the debate on Friday, and the Prime Minister explained, similar to what

:32:25.:32:30.

I have just been saying, that there is not a political consensus about

:32:31.:32:35.

Syria in the House of Commons. When we did it last year, we were

:32:36.:32:39.

defeated, and it was described by all commentators as a huge blow to

:32:40.:32:42.

the government and to our foreign policy. So, we will bring forward

:32:43.:32:47.

proposals when there is a majority in this country to do so in the

:32:48.:32:52.

House of Commons. Professor Michael Clarke, one of the world top experts

:32:53.:32:59.

on military strategy and history, he says there are very few important IS

:33:00.:33:03.

targets in northern Iraq, that they are all in Syria, and we are

:33:04.:33:07.

limiting ourselves to the periphery of the campaign. First of all, just

:33:08.:33:11.

because you are not doing everything does not mean you should not do

:33:12.:33:15.

something. Secondly, the United States and other countries are

:33:16.:33:19.

engaged in the action against targets in Syria. This is a

:33:20.:33:24.

coalition effort, with people doing different things. Thirdly, if we

:33:25.:33:29.

were to put their proposal to the House of Commons tomorrow, and it

:33:30.:33:32.

was defeated, we would not have achieved a great deal. You do not

:33:33.:33:38.

know it would have been defeated. The Labour Party has given no

:33:39.:33:41.

indication they would have supported that. So, you are hostage to the

:33:42.:33:47.

Labour Party? We have to win a democratic vote in the House of

:33:48.:33:50.

Commons, and the Labour Party is a very large part of the House of

:33:51.:33:55.

Commons. You are asking us to pursue a policy which at the moment could

:33:56.:34:01.

be defeated in Parliament. Is it not embarrassing to be on the wrong side

:34:02.:34:04.

of so many of these military experts? Why should we trust the

:34:05.:34:08.

judgment of here today, gone tomorrow, politicians? We have the

:34:09.:34:16.

military experts with us now. We have a national security council, we

:34:17.:34:19.

do not have sofa government, unlike the last government. The national

:34:20.:34:23.

security council is chaired by the Prime Minister. Alongside the Chief

:34:24.:34:29.

of Defence Staff and the heads of the intelligence agencies. And we

:34:30.:34:37.

take decisions together with the people who have the information

:34:38.:34:42.

now. So, you will know what British and American intelligence says about

:34:43.:34:46.

Syria. The Prime Minister has said there is a danger that the

:34:47.:34:49.

British-born jihadists will come back and attack us. But the

:34:50.:34:53.

intelligence reports which you will have seen are clear - Al-Qaeda and

:34:54.:34:58.

its associates are selecting, indoctrinating and training

:34:59.:35:04.

jihadists in Syria, not Iraq. Does that not make the Syrian exclusion

:35:05.:35:08.

even more ludicrous? I cannot comment on intelligence. Is the

:35:09.:35:15.

situation in Syria I direct threat to this country? Yes, it is. Have we

:35:16.:35:22.

excluded action? No, we haven't Could you come back to the House?

:35:23.:35:25.

The Prime Minister said, it was in the motion put to the House of

:35:26.:35:30.

Commons, that if we want to take action in Syria, we will come back

:35:31.:35:35.

to the House of Commons. But we have not taken any decision about that

:35:36.:35:39.

and we would not do so if we thought we were going to be defeated again.

:35:40.:35:44.

The government supports US strikes on Syria, show you must relieve they

:35:45.:35:51.

are legal. Either way the legal basis differs from one country to

:35:52.:35:54.

another, according to their reading of international law. But you have

:35:55.:36:01.

supported it. We do believe that they and Arab countries are taking

:36:02.:36:04.

action legally and we support their action. But I understand your

:36:05.:36:12.

legitimate questions. But it comes back to your basic question, why in

:36:13.:36:18.

Iraq and not Syria. Nonetheless it is important to take action in

:36:19.:36:23.

Iraq. We are also engaged in Syria in building up the political

:36:24.:36:28.

strength of the more moderate opposition and in trying to bring

:36:29.:36:32.

about a peace agreement, and we do not exclude action in Syria in the

:36:33.:36:40.

future. If we propose doing something, then we ask for the

:36:41.:36:44.

specific legal advice. Why would you not ask for the legal advice

:36:45.:36:49.

anyway? Because you have to be sure of the legal advice at the time and

:36:50.:36:53.

also we do not comment on the advice given to us by the Law officers Mr

:36:54.:36:59.

Blair ended up publishing his. That was because there was a huge legal

:37:00.:37:04.

dispute. So you have not had legal advice yet that Britain attacking

:37:05.:37:08.

Syria would be legal? The legal situation is unlikely to be the

:37:09.:37:11.

barrier in this case, let me put it that way. Within international law,

:37:12.:37:17.

you can act in the event of extreme humanitarian distress and elective

:37:18.:37:24.

self-defence, so one can imagine strong legal justification, but of

:37:25.:37:28.

course, we will take the legal advice at the time.

:37:29.:37:30.

watching The Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who

:37:31.:37:35.

Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead.

:37:36.:37:44.

We go to the best school in the world.

:37:45.:37:55.

A new film by a Bristol graduate lampoons the life of toffs

:37:56.:37:58.

but might it soon be harder for them to get ahead in the jobs market

:37:59.:38:03.

Labour wants a crackdown on class in the workplace.

:38:04.:38:07.

Joining me today are two men I happened to bump into

:38:08.:38:10.

who then proceeded to tell le their life stories.

:38:11.:38:12.

The sort of thing that happdns all the time to Ed Miliband,

:38:13.:38:16.

as he told us at the party last week.

:38:17.:38:19.

Like Gareth, who is high up in a software company.

:38:20.:38:21.

He has got a five`year`old daughter

:38:22.:38:23.

and is earning a decent wagd but cannot afford to buy a home

:38:24.:38:27.

I mentioned earlier on that I spent a couple days in a hospital

:38:28.:38:31.

While I was there, I met an amazing man in his 80s,

:38:32.:38:38.

I met someone called Elizabdth the other day.

:38:39.:38:42.

Earlier on, I mentioned Gareth who works at

:38:43.:38:47.

a software company, who is worried about his daughter and the future.

:38:48.:38:50.

Yes, Ed Miliband talking about Gareth and Elizabeth

:38:51.:38:56.

He did his entire speech from memory and then left ott some

:38:57.:39:02.

Let's talk about that with Darren Jones,

:39:03.:39:05.

and Conservative councillor Mark Weston.

:39:06.:39:11.

And also here, I am pleased to say, is Chris Scott, head of acthng at

:39:12.:39:14.

How hard is it to memorise an 80 minute speech?

:39:15.:39:21.

And I think also the pressure that you're trying to remember those

:39:22.:39:31.

words, with all those peopld watching you, with the confdrence

:39:32.:39:35.

going on, with the television cameras recording every hiccup,

:39:36.:39:39.

every slight pause you have, I think it is a great stress and strain to

:39:40.:39:44.

I suppose there is a sort of feeling that if you can speak

:39:45.:39:53.

off`the`cuff for so long yot really are passionate about it.

:39:54.:39:57.

It does mean that you can gdt a lot of eye contact, which is good.

:39:58.:40:03.

If you can actually talk to people, I think that is impressive.

:40:04.:40:08.

So I think rather than being anchored behind a podium he wants to

:40:09.:40:14.

seem fresh, spontaneous, purposeful, passionate.

:40:15.:40:18.

I agree with everything that has just been said.

:40:19.:40:24.

I mean, you guys jibe Ed and that editing

:40:25.:40:26.

didn't show one of the policies that he was talking about in his speech.

:40:27.:40:30.

We were more interested in the characters he mentioned.

:40:31.:40:32.

You should be interested in the policies, David...

:40:33.:40:34.

That is up to him, then, to get that message across.

:40:35.:40:36.

Well, he did but you didn't put it in the film.

:40:37.:40:39.

I don't think he really did, if we are honest.

:40:40.:40:41.

I think he did a whole speech to the audience there, rather than

:40:42.:40:45.

And what he tried to do was create this artificial sense that he is

:40:46.:40:49.

communicating with people bx listing all the people that he had let.

:40:50.:40:52.

I hope in the last few months he has met more than those thrde.

:40:53.:40:56.

Well, Mark, you told me you turned it off after half an hour

:40:57.:40:59.

so I'm not sure you can say that you saw the speech.

:41:00.:41:01.

I did, and the reason I did is because it was that dull.

:41:02.:41:05.

I have read the transcript `nd I watched the first half an hour but I

:41:06.:41:08.

am afraid after that it failed to engage, and I am a political geek.

:41:09.:41:12.

Did it remind you of Iain Duncan Smith?

:41:13.:41:14.

Oh, it is right up there with his disastrous speeches!

:41:15.:41:16.

Mark is a very good Conserv`tive party staffer,

:41:17.:41:19.

I was there as well and as H was filing out of the hall I asked those

:41:20.:41:25.

people in the red, the stew`rds I said, "Marks out of ten?"

:41:26.:41:28.

And there was one woman who said 9.5 but for most it was six.

:41:29.:41:31.

When Ed was talking about those people, he was trying to

:41:32.:41:35.

put in context the policies he wants to bring to this country to help

:41:36.:41:39.

You might make jokes about him or the delivery the way you have

:41:40.:41:43.

edited that, but when he was talking about the NHS, jobs and

:41:44.:41:46.

apprenticeships, when he was talking about housing, these are thd

:41:47.:41:48.

He wasn't talking about the deficit or immigr`tion.

:41:49.:41:52.

That's the danger if you don't autocue or teldprompt

:41:53.:41:55.

And what about your Rochdald MP I forget the chap's name.

:41:56.:41:59.

Mark, here, trying to conduct the interview

:42:00.:42:01.

Ed has spoken about the mistake that he has owned up to in the speech,

:42:02.:42:05.

it doesn't mean he doesn't worry about the deficit and if yot look

:42:06.:42:08.

at the Ed Balls speech, the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was

:42:09.:42:11.

very clear that we wanted to balance the books by the end

:42:12.:42:14.

We are going to make that a legal responsibility and `ll the

:42:15.:42:17.

policies are fully costed, with no increase in debt or spending

:42:18.:42:20.

As a performer, what did yot think about this technique of dropping

:42:21.:42:23.

What we want to know are sole of the macro aspects of the politics.

:42:24.:42:31.

We also want to see some of the micro aspects of the policies

:42:32.:42:34.

Those are good and seeing the people...

:42:35.:42:42.

But is he doing it for the conference centre or is he

:42:43.:42:45.

Is it a precis of the whole week at Manchester?

:42:46.:42:52.

It is quite a tall order for one single speech.

:42:53.:42:56.

Content`wise, he has absolutely set the agenda, has he not, on cost

:42:57.:43:02.

of living in a way that Mr Cameron simply hasn't, even

:43:03.:43:06.

though I am sure he will deliver a very polished speech from attocue?

:43:07.:43:10.

No, I think he has set out ` vision but

:43:11.:43:13.

it is their eighth in three years.

:43:14.:43:17.

He seems to keep changing the vision and plan every thme

:43:18.:43:20.

It was supposed to have been fully costed but it is not.

:43:21.:43:24.

There are ?20 billion worth of commitments but only ?2 billion

:43:25.:43:27.

Thank you so much for coming in and giving us your acting thps.

:43:28.:43:35.

Now, Labour has announced plans to tackle class discrimination

:43:36.:43:45.

The party wants the social background of candidates to be taken

:43:46.:43:50.

into account by public sector employers.

:43:51.:43:53.

We are at the top universitx in the world.

:43:54.:43:58.

But there are no more than ten in The Riot Club.

:43:59.:44:05.

It is an image the Tories are desperate to ditch

:44:06.:44:08.

but in cinemas everywhere rhght now, The Riot Club portrays a prhvileged

:44:09.:44:12.

few as champagne`swilling btllyboys who see themselves

:44:13.:44:16.

as masters of the universe.

:44:17.:44:21.

And there's been lots of talk about the importance of class

:44:22.:44:26.

Here in East Bristol, the chosen Conservative candidate is

:44:27.:44:30.

a privately educated expert in Russian art, Theodora Cl`rk.

:44:31.:44:35.

She happens to be the niece of the wife of the North East Somerset

:44:36.:44:39.

MP Jacob Rees Mogg and famotsly his sister, Anunciata, ran for ` nearby

:44:40.:44:44.

But all three have been chosen through the party's

:44:45.:44:50.

own rigourous selection process so why should any of this m`tter?

:44:51.:44:55.

I don't know that people outside the Labour Party really think

:44:56.:44:58.

I think the electorate in North East Somerset thinks

:44:59.:45:04.

about individuals, people as they are and as they meet them.

:45:05.:45:07.

I am very fortunate in that my family is deeply rooted

:45:08.:45:13.

there and I have met many pdople who have known members of my falily who

:45:14.:45:16.

I think being rooted in your community is much more

:45:17.:45:20.

important than these rather outdated issues of class.

:45:21.:45:24.

And it's not just the Tories who have been criticised for making

:45:25.:45:27.

This week, the Bristol Labotr councillor Fabian Beckles l`shed out

:45:28.:45:31.

at his own party for giving children of former MPs face the.

:45:32.:45:39.

There is Will Straw, fun of Jack, now standing in

:45:40.:45:42.

And Stephen Kinnock, son of Neil, running in south Wales.

:45:43.:45:51.

And finally, Emily Benn from the line of Tony and

:45:52.:45:53.

They all argue they have earned their place but opening up

:45:54.:45:57.

the top jobs to more people is one of the key seems to emerge

:45:58.:46:00.

There are ladders that can be used to climb up and get on, but they are

:46:01.:46:06.

Politics, law, journalism, business, wonderful jobs but still opdrating

:46:07.:46:12.

Three quarters of senior judges nearly half of journalists,

:46:13.:46:20.

are from private schools whhch educate just 7% of the population.

:46:21.:46:26.

Labour now wants public sector employers to monitor the social

:46:27.:46:29.

I lived at number four, the groundfloor flat.

:46:30.:46:37.

Their candidate in Bristol North West is keen for people to know he

:46:38.:46:40.

Darren Jones may sound like he has had an expensive education but in

:46:41.:46:45.

So is his accent is stopping him connecting in the working class

:46:46.:46:53.

As long as they can speak plainly to anyone,

:46:54.:46:57.

I don't like being talked down to, I don't think anyone else does.

:46:58.:47:00.

As long as they communicate well I don't think Porsche is so mtch

:47:01.:47:03.

It doesn't matter whether he's posh or whether he is

:47:04.:47:13.

It just depends on the results he gets.

:47:14.:47:16.

Just because he's got mace chinos on and a pair

:47:17.:47:18.

of boat shoes doesn't mean that he's not in touch with society.

:47:19.:47:21.

You know, the thing is guy, if he wants to be in touch with society,

:47:22.:47:25.

it doesn't matter what he looks like, it matters on what he is

:47:26.:47:28.

I looked up to him because he is upper`class but I let down

:47:29.:47:34.

on him because he is lower class. `` look down.

:47:35.:47:36.

Perhaps, then, those traditional class divhsions

:47:37.:47:38.

With Labour's new policy, knowing the place you came

:47:39.:47:43.

from could be crucial in climbing the ladder at work.

:47:44.:47:46.

Well, we are joined by Nigel Costley from the TUC.

:47:47.:48:04.

Nigel used to be the of Equality South West, which

:48:05.:48:07.

campaigned for a more equal society.

:48:08.:48:08.

Is class much of an issue these days?

:48:09.:48:10.

I forgot my class cap and mx whippet but we mustn't stereotype pdople.

:48:11.:48:15.

Trade unionists, now, represent all classes, if you like.

:48:16.:48:17.

Last week, the hospital consultants bordered

:48:18.:48:21.

by 80% to take industrial action. ``voted.

:48:22.:48:23.

They will be joining with cleaners, construction workers,

:48:24.:48:25.

So we represent a wide spectrum of people but it does remain

:48:26.:48:29.

the big divide in society, where you were born matters hugely.

:48:30.:48:35.

If you are born in South Bristol your chances

:48:36.:48:50.

of getting into higher educ`tion and a decent job, let alone politics

:48:51.:48:53.

or journalism, hugely different from if you were born in Clhfton.

:48:54.:48:56.

And the answer is we must r`ise awareness of those divisions

:48:57.:48:58.

and we have to do something about it, because it's getting worse.

:48:59.:49:01.

The top 1% is soaring away from the rest of us,

:49:02.:49:04.

Do you accept that politici`ns aren't doing enough to deal with

:49:05.:49:08.

this issue of class, which seems to be particularly British?

:49:09.:49:11.

I am not sure, if I am being utterly honest, that there is

:49:12.:49:14.

I mean, I listened to Glori`'s speech and I have to say I `m not

:49:15.:49:20.

convinced that what she is suggesting is remotely practical.

:49:21.:49:24.

I think people, and you heard, they are far more interested in how

:49:25.:49:28.

people perform and their abhlities than about their backgrounds.

:49:29.:49:32.

Can you really imagine that all of the public bodies out thdre are

:49:33.:49:35.

going to monitor your socio`economic backgrotnd?

:49:36.:49:39.

Ultimately, if we are being truthful, where you come from

:49:40.:49:44.

doesn't matter at all, it's how good you are that makes the diffdrence.

:49:45.:49:49.

The reason I am in politics is because I have done

:49:50.:49:51.

I was the first in my family to go to university.

:49:52.:49:57.

I am very proud to be running for parliament,

:49:58.:49:59.

And one of the things that fundamentally annoys there hs

:50:00.:50:03.

the lack of equality and opportunity and the right for kids in Bristol

:50:04.:50:07.

So what sort of social engineering can you do,

:50:08.:50:10.

It is just about balancing out the playing field.

:50:11.:50:14.

That was the way and for many people.

:50:15.:50:18.

A lot of people from Lawrence Weston are in see new places today

:50:19.:50:27.

But actually the issue is m`king sure that a comprehensive education

:50:28.:50:37.

I am saying that we need to do more with comprehensive

:50:38.:50:44.

schools to be able to support them to deliver that.

:50:45.:50:46.

And this is the fundamental issue about why am wanting to be the MP

:50:47.:50:50.

Have you noticed that, that it is who you know?

:50:51.:50:54.

I am sure in all parts of politics if you are born

:50:55.:50:57.

into a political family that is going to be in your life blood.

:50:58.:51:00.

I don't think we should stop people getting chances because of that

:51:01.:51:03.

But I do think that the question of inequality is getting worse.

:51:04.:51:06.

If the minimum wage had gond up at the same rate as the top FTSE

:51:07.:51:10.

It affects so much of OUR lhfe, where you were born

:51:11.:51:16.

And we do need to do somethhng about that.

:51:17.:51:20.

We don't want to divide people at 11 so that some man in the factories

:51:21.:51:24.

and typing rules as opposed to the managers and the people who are

:51:25.:51:27.

But the problem with what L`bour was suggested

:51:28.:51:32.

at the conference seems to be that your background matters mord.

:51:33.:51:34.

If you are working`class and you make a success and you have said

:51:35.:51:40.

Do your children have to be`r the brunt of that because suddenly you

:51:41.:51:49.

are doing well for yourself and living

:51:50.:51:51.

are not going to get a break because your social economic background in

:51:52.:51:56.

these topic affairs indices and some public body is sayhng that

:51:57.:52:01.

you are from a wealthy family. ``public bodies.

:52:02.:52:02.

My wife's grandfather was a coal mine.

:52:03.:52:04.

If we go far back, we can find these.

:52:05.:52:06.

I am sure we can all find our working`class roots if we look.

:52:07.:52:09.

But why do you make such a big thing of it?

:52:10.:52:13.

You often say that you are from a council house in Lawrence Weston,

:52:14.:52:16.

Where I lived isn't the reason I say that.

:52:17.:52:22.

Actually it is because that is what drives my politics.

:52:23.:52:24.

One of the things I do freqtently as the candidate is both local kids to

:52:25.:52:28.

to local businesses to understand what jobs they are in Bristol for

:52:29.:52:35.

them to aspire to and to understand how their work at school makes the

:52:36.:52:38.

to their jobs and I am glad that Mark recognises

:52:39.:52:41.

that young people today see their futures and note that they light not

:52:42.:52:44.

`` they do not know that thdy are going to get the opporttnity

:52:45.:52:49.

Did you get your break by not appearing to be workhng`class

:52:50.:52:52.

You are as posh as Jacob Riis morgue in manx ways.

:52:53.:52:58.

I don't think I am, quite frankly, and it has nothing to do with that.

:52:59.:53:01.

I was good academically in skill and thanks to Ian Labour Government

:53:02.:53:04.

I was the first in my family to go to university.

:53:05.:53:07.

So it worked for you so why can it not work for millions of others

:53:08.:53:10.

and actually isn't it, in rdality, people just getting on with it?

:53:11.:53:13.

You just need to look at the evidence, David.

:53:14.:53:15.

It is an increasing problem in this country and we have just got

:53:16.:53:18.

to take steps to do this and the point on measuring social

:53:19.:53:21.

background in professions, the Law Society does that for l`wyers

:53:22.:53:24.

You might have a situation where you go for

:53:25.:53:28.

a job and to equal candidatds, one who came from a middle`class area

:53:29.:53:31.

and the other from working`class, and the working class kid gdts it?

:53:32.:53:34.

I do not think that is what she is saying.

:53:35.:53:36.

That is exactly what she was saying stop at my law firm,

:53:37.:53:40.

we measure those backgrounds and we can make strategic ddcisions

:53:41.:53:43.

on how we can support young people to understand...

:53:44.:53:45.

So you go for the working`class kid, rather than the middle`class kid?

:53:46.:53:48.

Oh, it doesn't come to this decision about who you employee

:53:49.:53:50.

but we run a mentoring programme with kids from a local school..

:53:51.:53:53.

We are in the thick of the party conference season

:53:54.:54:00.

and the Conservatives who g`ther in Birmingham today will have been

:54:01.:54:03.

keeping a close eye on UKIP's get`together at Doncaster

:54:04.:54:05.

UKIP has already made a bre`kthrough in council elections, taking seats

:54:06.:54:08.

Now the party's hopes are phnned on Westminster.

:54:09.:54:11.

Welcome to Doncaster racecotrse wear this weekend UKIP have been

:54:12.:54:18.

No coincidence that this happens to be justified the constituency

:54:19.:54:23.

It is Labour heartland and the party are very deliberately going out to

:54:24.:54:28.

In the West Country, that means place of Lake Swhndon,

:54:29.:54:31.

Bristol, Gloucester, where they hope to pick up ports.

:54:32.:54:36.

Probably the biggest target of all is the Forest of Dean, wherd they

:54:37.:54:39.

picked up the council seats in the county council elections last year.

:54:40.:54:42.

They also did very well in this year's European elections.

:54:43.:54:49.

With me is 1 of their newly elected MEPs, Julia Reed.

:54:50.:54:51.

Let's just ask you about thd Forest of Dean.

:54:52.:54:54.

Important seat for you but xou have not got a candidate yet.

:54:55.:54:56.

No, they are going through the selection

:54:57.:54:58.

process now and our selection process is very rigorous, so they

:54:59.:55:01.

are going to ensure they have a really good candidate in place.

:55:02.:55:04.

The selection process than last time because Tim, your candidate, had to

:55:05.:55:07.

stand down and they said he had been a hypocrite over windfarms.

:55:08.:55:13.

He passed the selection process that he was

:55:14.:55:15.

But because of his involvemdnt in windfarms, and he did decide

:55:16.:55:18.

There will be lots of MEPs that have in the past fallen out

:55:19.:55:27.

with the leader are left thd party, councillors or candidates who

:55:28.:55:30.

Are you confident this time the UKIP is getting itself together

:55:31.:55:40.

and not having strange people who will fall out?

:55:41.:55:42.

I am certain that we will go on and on and do better and better

:55:43.:55:45.

Quick question about taxation, a big issue at the conference.

:55:46.:55:48.

You want to drop the top rate of tax for the wealthiest,

:55:49.:55:52.

that is going to take ?3,000,00 ,000 out of public coffers.

:55:53.:55:55.

At the moment, we have a lot of aspiration`l people

:55:56.:55:57.

in the middle classes who are trying to better themselves

:55:58.:56:01.

and they are hitting the cehling of the tax rate very, very puickly.

:56:02.:56:11.

Osborne actually did lower ht by ?2000 from the level that

:56:12.:56:14.

We intend to increase the t`x eventually for that the better

:56:15.:56:19.

off paying a bit more but that those who are trying to better thdmselves

:56:20.:56:22.

We will see more, doubtless, as we get

:56:23.:56:28.

More details to come over the next 8 months.

:56:29.:56:34.

Let's turn to our guests in the studio.

:56:35.:56:37.

There was one very good lind that Ed Miliband had

:56:38.:56:42.

at the party conference, he said the Prime minister did not lie awake

:56:43.:56:45.

at night worrying about the UK, he was awake at night worryhng

:56:46.:56:48.

I think it is a good line for that speech.

:56:49.:56:58.

David Cameron has been quitd passionate in this whole Scottish

:56:59.:57:01.

referendum debate and he thhnks about the entirety of the UK.

:57:02.:57:04.

The whole party is running scared of UKIP.

:57:05.:57:07.

And via the tail wagging thd dog, aren't they?

:57:08.:57:10.

What they are, they are a political opponent that we aim to beat

:57:11.:57:14.

No, euroscepticism, if you want I would define myself

:57:15.:57:24.

as eursceptic and I would be delighted to have

:57:25.:57:26.

You are becoming more like them because that is the way you see

:57:27.:57:32.

I think that has been a gradual devolution all along.

:57:33.:57:34.

If you look at William Hagud and the two does not 2005 c`mpaign,

:57:35.:57:40.

we have always campaigned on European issues. ``2001 `nd 005.

:57:41.:57:42.

And look how well that turned out for you.

:57:43.:57:45.

Actually, one of the things that Ed Miliband forecourt was immigration,

:57:46.:57:49.

which is obviously a great driver for a lot of the population.

:57:50.:57:51.

Immigration is a huge issue and Ed Miliband forgot about it.

:57:52.:57:57.

UKIP are absolutely going to target that like a missile.

:57:58.:57:59.

They will target immigration and low taxes.

:58:00.:58:01.

In a way, they are clever, they have got their eyes on you both

:58:02.:58:07.

I always enjoy watching Torhes squirm over the UKIP question

:58:08.:58:11.

and Mark's ward election last May was the only 1 without ` UKIP

:58:12.:58:14.

I don't know whether you were in a packed with them or not

:58:15.:58:19.

but it was interesting that you get a receipt in that situation.

:58:20.:58:22.

Let's be clear, UKIP is getting votes from people that are

:58:23.:58:25.

disenfranchised from politics and are angry about the world.

:58:26.:58:27.

What we need to be doing as the Labour Party is showhng

:58:28.:58:30.

people that we have the answers to the challenges and UKIP havd been

:58:31.:58:33.

They have been talking about a flat rate of tax that will get another...

:58:34.:58:37.

Do you think the address working class issues and worries?

:58:38.:58:40.

They announced today, at the start of the conference,

:58:41.:58:42.

a flat rate of tax, which whll give another tax cut to millionahres

:58:43.:58:45.

They want to privatise the NHS, they want to charge you to see the GP, as

:58:46.:58:51.

does my opponent in the north`west, the Tory MP Charlotte Leslid. They

:58:52.:58:54.

Now let's take a spool back through the political

:58:55.:59:00.

Ed Miliband picked a fight with one of Bristol's biggest employdrs after

:59:01.:59:09.

A spokesman for Imperial Tobacco called the tax on just

:59:10.:59:20.

and said it would put presstre on jobs and livelihoods. ``tnjust.

:59:21.:59:22.

# If there is something that you want to hear...

:59:23.:59:30.

Buskers in Bath were told to turn the music down.

:59:31.:59:33.

The Abbey complained after Dvensong had to be abandoned.

:59:34.:59:35.

Councillors are now thinking of banning the use of amplifiers.

:59:36.:59:37.

It was people power that stopped contractors painting a resident s

:59:38.:59:40.

A barricade was hastily erected and a stand`off and shoot.

:59:41.:59:53.

Why should we pay for parking in our street?

:59:54.:59:55.

We already pay road tax, what is this for?

:59:56.:59:57.

The local authority voted will be back.

:59:58.:59:59.

And there was fresh hope for the criminal Tropicana

:00:00.:00:01.

North Somerset Council, which had wanted to knock it down,

:00:02.:00:04.

has now sign off ?750,000 to bring it back to life.

:00:05.:00:08.

Thank you to Mark Weston and Darren Jones for coming in and Inshde Out

:00:09.:00:19.

West will be looking again `t the topic of inequalities in Brhstol in

:00:20.:00:22.

From now, I will say goodbyd and invite you to watch the

:00:23.:00:29.

Let's return to Andrew, who this week is that the Conservative

:00:30.:00:37.

My thanks to you both. Andrew, back to you.

:00:38.:00:55.

Here we are back in Birmingham with the Conservatives. The Tories

:00:56.:01:03.

thought all they had to do was come here, have a rally, a jamboree, and

:01:04.:01:09.

off they go to the races, or in their case the general election Two

:01:10.:01:14.

races later it hasn't quite worked out like that. Let's look at the

:01:15.:01:20.

state of this conference as it gets under way. On our panel we are

:01:21.:01:27.

joined by David Davis. You wrote an article in the Mail on Sunday this

:01:28.:01:31.

morning which was an Exocet at the heart of David Cameron's modernising

:01:32.:01:38.

strategy. It was designed to act as a lever. It was designed to cause

:01:39.:01:44.

trouble. No, we are in the running for the next general election. One

:01:45.:01:48.

of the characteristics of having a five year fixed term Parliaments is

:01:49.:01:53.

that the last year is about campaigning. It is important we beat

:01:54.:01:57.

Miliband, he would be a disastrous Prime Minister. You think the whole

:01:58.:02:03.

modernising strategy was a wrong turn, that is what the article said.

:02:04.:02:12.

Yes. Has that opened the door to UKIP? It has left a lot of people

:02:13.:02:31.

disillusioned with politics. What do you do to get it right? Who was

:02:32.:02:34.

listening to you? Frankly we need to take a more

:02:35.:03:09.

robust series of policies. How many more UKIP defections will there be?

:03:10.:03:13.

I do not think there will be any more. I would be very surprised I

:03:14.:03:22.

know Nigel Farage has a brilliant sense of timing, but I do not think

:03:23.:03:26.

he has got the resources to do that, namely, another Tory MP. So it could

:03:27.:03:32.

be another Labour one, maybe? I think an awful lot will hinge on

:03:33.:03:38.

what happens in Rochester. Because that is not a slam dunk. Clack and

:03:39.:03:43.

unfortunately looks like it will be a walkover for them. But Rochester

:03:44.:03:55.

is a different scene. And so, there could be a kind of Newark situation.

:03:56.:04:01.

When I campaigned in Newark, two labour families I spoke to said they

:04:02.:04:06.

would vote Tory to keep UKIP out. How bad was the Labour conference

:04:07.:04:12.

last week? One politician said after he had a really bad performance that

:04:13.:04:16.

his television performance was suboptimal. I think that would be a

:04:17.:04:22.

good way of describing Ed Miliband's speech. The problem for

:04:23.:04:25.

Ed Miliband in memorising speeches is that we are not auditioning for a

:04:26.:04:29.

new lines Olivier, we're rehearsing for Prime Minister. He failed the

:04:30.:04:34.

Laurence Olivier test, and therefore failed the Prime Minister test. I

:04:35.:04:37.

think the real problem for him was forgetting to mention the deficit.

:04:38.:04:41.

He spoke from the heart about issues which she really cares about, the

:04:42.:04:47.

NHS, the rupture between wages and inflation, and forgot the deficit.

:04:48.:04:51.

Those issues are important, but if you are not addressing things

:04:52.:04:53.

Those issues are important, but if the deficit, then people are really

:04:54.:04:56.

not going to be listening to your messages on the areas that matter.

:04:57.:05:00.

not going to be listening to your Was it bad? Yes, suboptimal, I am

:05:01.:05:06.

afraid. I hope that this ends the nonsense of leaders wasting their

:05:07.:05:09.

time learning speeches off by heart. You could learn a Shakespeare

:05:10.:05:14.

play in the time it takes to learn 70 minutes of a leader's speech I

:05:15.:05:18.

think we should just go back to sensible reading what you have

:05:19.:05:22.

written. You can then alter it just beforehand. A lot of things were

:05:23.:05:26.

changing, which is not surprising, but he did not have time to learn

:05:27.:05:31.

it. It is a silly gimmick, it worked once or twice, but that is enough

:05:32.:05:35.

for that. Despite some of the derision of Mr Miliband, the Tories

:05:36.:05:38.

are flat-lining in the sun decks, they have been there almost since

:05:39.:05:43.

the disastrous budget, the omnishambles, of 2012, Labour is

:05:44.:05:48.

still several points ahead, nothing seems to change? And David Cameron

:05:49.:05:53.

is now the leader in trouble. It is almost as if a week is a long time

:05:54.:05:57.

in politics. I thought the Labour and friends was Saab --

:05:58.:06:05.

sub-suboptimal. It was so parochial. You could've watched the top

:06:06.:06:10.

speeches without knowing that the borders of Ukraine, and Iraq and

:06:11.:06:15.

Syria were in question. I hope, because of Friday's discussion in

:06:16.:06:19.

Parliament, that this conference will raise its sights a bit, and we

:06:20.:06:23.

will have something in Cameron's speech, possibly that of George

:06:24.:06:28.

Osborne as well, which is a bit more global. People hoped UKIP had gone

:06:29.:06:32.

away during the summer, people at this conference, I mean, but it is

:06:33.:06:39.

back with a bang. They are still up at 15% in the polls, the Tories

:06:40.:06:44.

languishing on 32 - what is going to change? UKIP won 3% of the last

:06:45.:06:49.

election, I always thought they would get about 6%. If, by the turn

:06:50.:06:56.

of the year, they are still in double digits, I think at that point

:06:57.:07:01.

you can begin to wake of his party's chances of winning. I have

:07:02.:07:06.

had three people say to me so far, come election day, it will be fine,

:07:07.:07:11.

people will sober up and so on. It will be all right on the night is

:07:12.:07:15.

not a very good strategy, frankly. When they get past 5%, I start to

:07:16.:07:22.

bite into our 3-way marginal seats, with liberals, Labour and Tories,

:07:23.:07:26.

and we have got about 60 of those in the Midlands and the north, so it

:07:27.:07:31.

really is quite serious. And if I may steal one of David's lines, when

:07:32.:07:35.

you were interviewing Mark Reckless this morning, and was not talking

:07:36.:07:40.

about the EU referendum, he was talking about how he felt he had

:07:41.:07:44.

broken his pledges to the electorate because the Conservatives he said

:07:45.:07:48.

had failed on immigration and on the deficit, and those sort of

:07:49.:07:50.

bread-and-butter issues could be really potent on the doorstep, which

:07:51.:07:54.

means the Tories have got to run the kind of campaign they ran in Newark,

:07:55.:07:58.

which is a real centre ground, Reddan but a campaign, in which they

:07:59.:08:02.

would hope to get Liberal Democrat and Labour voters out to vote

:08:03.:08:07.

tactically against UKIP. I think today we have seen Cameron been

:08:08.:08:12.

pushed to the right. He has had to say, yes, I would leave Europe,

:08:13.:08:16.

which he has never said before. It is a huge stepping stone, a big

:08:17.:08:21.

difference. It takes the Tory party somewhere else. May be get them a

:08:22.:08:27.

lot of votes. But it has not so far. But I think it loses a lot of

:08:28.:08:33.

people. The industry organisations, for example. The prospect of going

:08:34.:08:37.

out of Europe, but is quite a fight for them. Is it not the lesson that

:08:38.:08:44.

you can out UKIP UKIP? Well, you do not need to, really. I agree, last

:08:45.:08:53.

week was sub-sub-suboptimal. Hold on, that is enough subs! I would not

:08:54.:09:03.

be crowing too much! But what I was going to say, he left out something

:09:04.:09:08.

incredibly important, the deficit. But how many people outside the M25

:09:09.:09:13.

are thinking about the deficit? One problem we face with Miliband is, he

:09:14.:09:18.

is good at politics and bad at economics, in a way. He comes up

:09:19.:09:23.

with bonkers policies which people love, price-fixing, things like

:09:24.:09:26.

that. Our problem will be about relevance on the doorstep. I do not

:09:27.:09:31.

think at the end of the day it will be about Europe. But was there not a

:09:32.:09:36.

moment of danger for you at the conference, that one area where

:09:37.:09:39.

Miliband is potentially vulnerable is not having credible team with

:09:40.:09:43.

business. Who turned up at the Labour conference, the head of

:09:44.:09:46.

Airbus, saying, we have got to stay in the European Union? The danger is

:09:47.:09:52.

that Europe allows the Labour Party to gain credibility with business.

:09:53.:10:00.

There is some truth in that. But we are in effectively the home

:10:01.:10:03.

straight, the last six months, and people will be fussing about prices

:10:04.:10:08.

and jobs. Very parochial. They will not be saying, what does the CBI

:10:09.:10:12.

think about this? It is, what is happening to me, in my town, in my

:10:13.:10:17.

factory, in my office. That is where the fight will be. Is it not the

:10:18.:10:26.

truth that if UKIP stays anywhere near around this level of support,

:10:27.:10:31.

it is impossible for the Tories to win an overall majority? I would

:10:32.:10:35.

say, if it is this level of support, it is impossible for the Tories to

:10:36.:10:38.

finish as the biggest party, even in a hung Parliament. The Tories keep

:10:39.:10:43.

trying to win back UKIP voters with cold logic - witches it makes Ed

:10:44.:10:47.

Miliband becoming prime minister more likely. UKIP is basically a

:10:48.:10:53.

vessel phenomenon, coming from the gut, and David Cameron has never

:10:54.:10:57.

found the emotional pitch in his rhetoric to meet that. I wonder

:10:58.:11:00.

whether we will see that moron Wednesday. It is just not him. I

:11:01.:11:12.

hope we do. -- more on Wednesday. I hope you're right that we do

:11:13.:11:17.

actually engage on emotion. So far with UKIP, our policy has been to

:11:18.:11:22.

insult them. It does not work. I know that from my constituency. We

:11:23.:11:26.

have to say to them, there is a wider Tory family, we understand you

:11:27.:11:30.

are patria, we understand you are worried about your family, and we do

:11:31.:11:36.

the same. What does it tell us about the state of the Tories, seven

:11:37.:11:38.

months from the election, the economy is going well, they are not

:11:39.:11:42.

that far behind Labour, and yet there is all sorts of leadership

:11:43.:11:46.

speculation? It is extraordinary. They are doing well, they are in

:11:47.:11:50.

with a shout. It depends. UKIP has to be kept below 9% of. -- below

:11:51.:12:02.

9%. I think David Cameron is one of the few who speaks human, actually

:12:03.:12:06.

talks quite well to people and does not look like a swivel-eyed loons.

:12:07.:12:10.

Whereas a lot of people behind him do. You look at Duncan Smith and

:12:11.:12:15.

Eric Pickles, they are all kind of driven, ideological men, with very

:12:16.:12:20.

right-wing policies. And nice people! Don't hold back! He is not

:12:21.:12:28.

the Addams family, he is basically quite human. I think a lot of people

:12:29.:12:33.

do not realise how ideological he is himself and how well he has led his

:12:34.:12:37.

party in the direction they all want to go. You go on about him being

:12:38.:12:41.

this metropolitan moderniser, I do not think that is what he is,

:12:42.:12:46.

really. It may not be visible from the guardian offices in the

:12:47.:12:51.

metropolis! Everybody where you are, Polly, is a metropolitan moderniser.

:12:52.:12:57.

And where you are, too. That is the nature of living in London. The

:12:58.:13:00.

trouble is, when these people get into Westminster, they are part of

:13:01.:13:04.

Westminster, too. If you could only win by being an outsider, the moment

:13:05.:13:09.

you get in, you are done for. All teeing up nicely for Boris Johnson

:13:10.:13:12.

to be the next leader? I do not think so! The point of my Exocet, or

:13:13.:13:22.

lever, this morning, is that I think this is winnable. If we are good

:13:23.:13:26.

Tories for the next six months, we can do this. It is by denying ground

:13:27.:13:31.

to UKIP, not giving in to them, not buckling. Denying ground. Thank you

:13:32.:13:37.

to our panel. They did all right today, but the normal. That is your

:13:38.:13:41.

lot for today. I am back tomorrow. We will have live coverage of George

:13:42.:13:46.

Osborne's speech to the conference. I am back next week in Glasgow for

:13:47.:13:50.

The Sunday Politics at the Labour conference. How could you miss

:13:51.:13:55.

that? Remember, if it is Sunday it is The Sunday Politics. Bye-bye

:13:56.:14:25.

of statutory press regulation in sponge cake may be a bridge too far.

:14:26.:14:40.

I think I've overdone it with the pistachios

:14:41.:14:42.

and somehow, the custard's split, but it's too late!

:14:43.:14:52.

of statutory press regulation in sponge cake may be a bridge too far.

:14:53.:14:57.

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