21/09/2014 Sunday Politics West


21/09/2014

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest news and debate live from the Labour Party conference in Manchester, with guests including Alex Salmond and Lord Prescott.


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Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering

:00:08.:00:12.

for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what

:00:13.:00:14.

the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for

:00:15.:00:53.

Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north

:00:54.:00:58.

But what about Home Rule for England?

:00:59.:01:06.

Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells

:01:07.:01:11.

us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've

:01:12.:01:16.

In the West, is a din calling once people who want to

:01:17.:01:28.

In the West, is a din calling once again? Is misleading say thd borders

:01:29.:01:31.

should powers and more freedom to spend.

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But what is the next devolution step for the capital? With me, the best

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and brightest political panel in the business, at least that is what they

:01:48.:01:51.

pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and, this week, we have

:01:52.:01:54.

done some devolution ourselves to other areas, and we have Sam Coates

:01:55.:02:01.

from the times. The union survived, but only at the cost of more powers

:02:02.:02:05.

for the Scottish parliament and enshrining the formula that gives

:02:06.:02:08.

Scotland a privileged position when it comes to public spending, which

:02:09.:02:13.

has MPs on both sides of the Commons of in arms. The Scottish question

:02:14.:02:20.

has been answered for now. Suddenly, the English question takes centre

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stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It has a grubby feel, when that vow was

:02:27.:02:33.

put to the Scottish people, that they hoped would swing the vote

:02:34.:02:35.

there was nothing about English only votes. It was unconditional? The

:02:36.:02:43.

Tory proposal did talk very core justly about looking at the

:02:44.:02:46.

proposals by a former clerk of the House of Commons that looked at this

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issue. That was very cautious. - cautiously. These proposals will not

:02:53.:02:58.

get through Westminster unless David Cameron addresses the English-only

:02:59.:03:01.

issue. You look at people like Chris Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph.

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Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr Show said you could not have a link

:03:06.:03:09.

between what you are giving Holyrood and English-only MPs. Back on says,

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is welshing on the deal. -- comic he They were furious that he gave away

:03:11.:03:27.

these tax powers and inscribed the Barnett formula. They said they

:03:28.:03:35.

weren't going to vote for it. It is a shameless piece of opportunism.

:03:36.:03:39.

Now they can say that Labour are the ones that don't trust you and don't

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want to give you more powers. He knows it is going to be a tight

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timetable. The idea of getting a draft of this out by Burns Night,

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most people would say, given they had six years to set up Scottish

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parliament, the idea we will solve these huge constitutional questions

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in four months is absurd. But they don't care about the constitutional

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questions, the one they care about is English votes? There is a simple

:04:05.:04:10.

reason they won that. If you look at the MPs in England alone, the Tories

:04:11.:04:14.

have a majority of 59, an overwhelming bias, and if you strip

:04:15.:04:19.

out Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland, so this has become a

:04:20.:04:23.

partisan issue. The question is whether David Cameron can follow

:04:24.:04:25.

through on the promise. He said he would link the two Scottish powers,

:04:26.:04:32.

but it's not clear you will get either before the general election.

:04:33.:04:37.

It's not but the purpose is to cause Labour Party discomfort, and it is.

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You can see with date -- Ed Miliband this morning, they find it very hard

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to answer the question, why shouldn't there be English votes for

:04:48.:04:52.

English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs

:04:53.:04:57.

get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London

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and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were

:05:01.:05:05.

before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed

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in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and

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the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the

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time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that

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would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see

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off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour

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backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws

:05:29.:05:31.

Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases

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unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to

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the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about

:05:42.:05:45.

20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a

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coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to

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be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should

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probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment.

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But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one

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piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep

:06:11.:06:13.

something called the Barnett Formula.

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It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett.

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And it's how the UK government decides how much

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public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

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It's controversial, because it's led to public spending

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being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England.

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Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that.

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I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the

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Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page

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of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial

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devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible

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not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been

:06:58.:07:01.

promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them,

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but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern

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Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue

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across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We

:07:12.:07:16.

have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to

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England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount

:07:21.:07:23.

spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West

:07:24.:07:27.

and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the

:07:28.:07:31.

elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and

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the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a

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sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the

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Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in

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contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would

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confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union

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on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft

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poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect

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and if anything was counter-productive to the overall

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result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted

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for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the

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promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would

:08:21.:08:24.

have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal

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Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett

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Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK,

:08:32.:08:36.

and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's

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trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in

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rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK

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-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending

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formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the

:08:57.:09:04.

oil revenues it sends to London Scotland is only getting back on

:09:05.:09:07.

spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that

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suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let

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me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the

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Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A

:09:25.:09:30.

huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting

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North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need

:09:35.:09:37.

to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the

:09:38.:09:40.

Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and

:09:41.:09:46.

grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we

:09:47.:09:50.

need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is,

:09:51.:09:55.

when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local

:09:56.:09:58.

authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland

:09:59.:10:01.

must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The

:10:02.:10:07.

Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for

:10:08.:10:11.

Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't

:10:12.:10:14.

he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people?

:10:15.:10:18.

Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the

:10:19.:10:22.

heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth

:10:23.:10:28.

is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and

:10:29.:10:34.

English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot

:10:35.:10:37.

of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is

:10:38.:10:42.

unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should

:10:43.:10:46.

deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let s

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deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they

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locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for

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joining us. The man responsible

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for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within

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touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic

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announcements, and he gave us another on Friday

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when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute

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to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to

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Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with

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the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole

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place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what

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you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them

:11:41.:11:44.

here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy

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Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the

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turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the

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electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare

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Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night,

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and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together

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campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in

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100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you

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think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around

:12:29.:12:38.

five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's

:12:39.:12:43.

biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for

:12:44.:12:47.

areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have

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you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many

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copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes

:12:56.:12:59.

campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one

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of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say,

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has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC

:13:11.:13:15.

has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the

:13:16.:13:20.

no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the

:13:21.:13:24.

numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in

:13:25.:13:31.

this referendum on independence The result, in Fife, has taken the no

:13:32.:13:35.

campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum

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is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has

:13:42.:13:46.

said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of

:13:47.:13:50.

the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more

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devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well.

:13:54.:13:58.

Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish

:13:59.:14:01.

Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England,

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as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on

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these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same

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pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we

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might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon?

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Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not

:14:29.:14:35.

next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex

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Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my

:14:40.:14:45.

time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues,

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and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the

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Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work.

:14:57.:15:02.

Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows

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no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in

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Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to

:15:13.:15:18.

resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it

:15:19.:15:22.

Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we

:15:23.:15:27.

were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I

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considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch

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time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not

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really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have

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to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility

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and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need

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a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win,

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you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future

:16:07.:16:10.

political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP

:16:11.:16:15.

and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they

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would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the

:16:20.:16:23.

campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were

:16:24.:16:29.

going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the

:16:30.:16:36.

campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought

:16:37.:16:41.

we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the

:16:42.:16:46.

fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at

:16:47.:16:49.

Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real

:16:50.:16:53.

thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of

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people that had been moving across to independence saw within that a

:16:59.:17:02.

reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the

:17:03.:17:07.

perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only

:17:08.:17:12.

five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city

:17:13.:17:19.

There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an

:17:20.:17:25.

enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away,

:17:26.:17:30.

though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In

:17:31.:17:35.

Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is

:17:36.:17:39.

what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland,

:17:40.:17:43.

leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong

:17:44.:17:49.

and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do

:17:50.:17:54.

a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been

:17:55.:17:59.

leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give

:18:00.:18:04.

somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that

:18:05.:18:07.

well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the

:18:08.:18:14.

national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right,

:18:15.:18:19.

the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the

:18:20.:18:22.

referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the

:18:23.:18:25.

political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met

:18:26.:18:32.

just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that

:18:33.:18:35.

there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy.

:18:36.:18:42.

Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any

:18:43.:18:46.

campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer

:18:47.:18:53.

not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be

:18:54.:18:57.

called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I

:18:58.:19:01.

will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically,

:19:02.:19:05.

broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political

:19:06.:19:09.

campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an

:19:10.:19:13.

energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed.

:19:14.:19:18.

It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which

:19:19.:19:23.

carried the Yes Campaign so far almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch

:19:24.:19:30.

put his Scottish Sun behind you would have that made the difference?

:19:31.:19:39.

If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not

:19:40.:19:46.

say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure

:19:47.:19:51.

about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other

:19:52.:19:58.

papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish

:19:59.:20:00.

independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced

:20:01.:20:05.

and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers I

:20:06.:20:15.

would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We

:20:16.:20:18.

certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I

:20:19.:20:23.

think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have

:20:24.:20:28.

liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if

:20:29.:20:39.

you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he

:20:40.:20:43.

defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has

:20:44.:20:48.

always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that

:20:49.:20:53.

can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union for

:20:54.:20:57.

example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would

:20:58.:21:01.

argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they

:21:02.:21:07.

are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are

:21:08.:21:11.

doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You

:21:12.:21:16.

don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to

:21:17.:21:20.

their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing

:21:21.:21:23.

on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change

:21:24.:21:28.

in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in

:21:29.:21:32.

carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from

:21:33.:21:36.

UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England

:21:37.:21:39.

which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English

:21:40.:21:44.

matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable

:21:45.:21:49.

object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads.

:21:50.:21:54.

The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the

:21:55.:21:57.

last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now

:21:58.:22:03.

engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded

:22:04.:22:08.

to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that

:22:09.:22:14.

are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching

:22:15.:22:18.

this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the

:22:19.:22:24.

opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the

:22:25.:22:30.

back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for

:22:31.:22:38.

the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from

:22:39.:22:45.

their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I

:22:46.:22:51.

think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There

:22:52.:22:55.

have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25%

:22:56.:23:00.

increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than

:23:01.:23:05.

that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the

:23:06.:23:16.

opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from

:23:17.:23:20.

politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday

:23:21.:23:26.

coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee,

:23:27.:23:32.

which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line

:23:33.:23:36.

of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song,

:23:37.:23:41.

rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in

:23:42.:23:49.

the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me.

:23:50.:23:56.

So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see

:23:57.:24:00.

you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you?

:24:01.:24:07.

Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of

:24:08.:24:11.

Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to

:24:12.:24:15.

serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I

:24:16.:24:20.

have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a

:24:21.:24:23.

chore. I'm not saying they didn t do it properly, I am sure they did But

:24:24.:24:30.

I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of

:24:31.:24:33.

Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good

:24:34.:24:36.

observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with

:24:37.:24:40.

being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it

:24:41.:24:51.

will never be Lord Salmond? Yes Thanks for joining us. Great

:24:52.:25:01.

pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over the

:25:02.:25:05.

next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven

:25:06.:25:09.

months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what

:25:10.:25:15.

are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for

:25:16.:25:20.

the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an

:25:21.:25:22.

exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates.

:25:23.:25:28.

Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public

:25:29.:25:31.

spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them

:25:32.:25:35.

want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit.

:25:36.:25:40.

18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the

:25:41.:25:44.

number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to

:25:45.:25:50.

immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with

:25:51.:25:53.

trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too

:25:54.:25:57.

close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the

:25:58.:26:03.

nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the

:26:04.:26:08.

railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their

:26:09.:26:16.

preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for

:26:17.:26:21.

the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many

:26:22.:26:28.

left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of

:26:29.:26:31.

candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in

:26:32.:26:35.

terms of what is left and right I think they see it in terms of what

:26:36.:26:39.

is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking

:26:40.:26:43.

about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the

:26:44.:26:47.

last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working

:26:48.:26:51.

very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are

:26:52.:26:54.

talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they

:26:55.:26:58.

want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to

:26:59.:27:01.

re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much

:27:02.:27:05.

immigration, they want to scrap Trident. These are all positions

:27:06.:27:08.

clearly to the left of current party policy. But that is your

:27:09.:27:13.

characterisation. If you look at our policy to increase the top rate of

:27:14.:27:18.

tax to 50% for people earning over ?150,000, that is a central

:27:19.:27:21.

position. It is something that enjoys the support of the majority

:27:22.:27:27.

of the public. Trident? If you talk to the British public about

:27:28.:27:32.

immigration, yes, there are concerns about the numbers coming in and out,

:27:33.:27:36.

yes people want to see integration, yes, people want to see people

:27:37.:27:39.

putting a contribution before they take out, the people recognise, if

:27:40.:27:43.

you look at our multicultural nation, we have derived a lot of

:27:44.:27:46.

benefits from immigration. I don't think your characterisation of those

:27:47.:27:50.

positions, that is your view... It's not, it is their view. They are

:27:51.:27:57.

saying... You describe it... You described those positions as left

:27:58.:28:02.

wing positions. I am saying to you that I actually think a lot of those

:28:03.:28:07.

positions are centrist positions that would enjoy the support of the

:28:08.:28:11.

majority of your viewers. I don t think your viewers think the idea of

:28:12.:28:15.

the broadest shoulders bearing the heaviest burden in forms of tax are

:28:16.:28:19.

going to see it as a way out, radical principle. They want to

:28:20.:28:25.

scrap Trident, not party policy It isn't.

:28:26.:28:29.

I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at

:28:30.:28:36.

the time of the next general election, not including current MPs.

:28:37.:28:41.

This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the

:28:42.:28:48.

survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are

:28:49.:28:52.

basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our

:28:53.:28:55.

Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at

:28:56.:28:58.

their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's

:28:59.:29:04.

fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people

:29:05.:29:11.

see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a

:29:12.:29:15.

Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges.

:29:16.:29:20.

We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations

:29:21.:29:24.

in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many

:29:25.:29:27.

people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do

:29:28.:29:31.

not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about

:29:32.:29:35.

the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the

:29:36.:29:38.

future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I

:29:39.:29:42.

don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in

:29:43.:29:52.

terms of who runs the next government. That one of your

:29:53.:29:54.

candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the

:29:55.:29:57.

unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have

:29:58.:30:01.

spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any

:30:02.:30:07.

different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people

:30:08.:30:10.

working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of

:30:11.:30:14.

journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been

:30:15.:30:17.

brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should

:30:18.:30:22.

be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer?

:30:23.:30:27.

I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you

:30:28.:30:30.

look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM

:30:31.:30:35.

Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership

:30:36.:30:39.

with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars.

:30:40.:30:44.

I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be

:30:45.:30:49.

closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our

:30:50.:30:56.

relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do

:30:57.:31:00.

you need a constitutional conversation where you have to

:31:01.:31:03.

discuss whether English people voting on English matters is

:31:04.:31:07.

unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice,

:31:08.:31:10.

but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the

:31:11.:31:17.

Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of

:31:18.:31:24.

the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't

:31:25.:31:28.

want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity

:31:29.:31:30.

where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK

:31:31.:31:36.

Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it

:31:37.:31:40.

is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes

:31:41.:31:44.

out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see

:31:45.:31:50.

it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been

:31:51.:31:53.

around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making

:31:54.:31:57.

a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not

:31:58.:32:01.

just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can

:32:02.:32:08.

vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport

:32:09.:32:12.

is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of

:32:13.:32:16.

competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to

:32:17.:32:20.

them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different

:32:21.:32:23.

MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is

:32:24.:32:27.

happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people

:32:28.:32:31.

politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities

:32:32.:32:34.

and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in

:32:35.:32:40.

Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in

:32:41.:32:43.

bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed

:32:44.:32:48.

before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs.

:32:49.:32:52.

That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to

:32:53.:32:56.

devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being

:32:57.:33:00.

decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax

:33:01.:33:05.

powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper

:33:06.:33:08.

being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put

:33:09.:33:14.

forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you

:33:15.:33:18.

haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I

:33:19.:33:22.

can't tell you on this programme right now. But we have accepted the

:33:23.:33:26.

principle on further devolution on tax, spending on welfare and we will

:33:27.:33:30.

have further details in due course. Your leader promised to maintain the

:33:31.:33:33.

Barnett Formula for the foreseeable future. Why is that fair when it

:33:34.:33:38.

enshrines more per capita spending for Scotland than it does for Wales,

:33:39.:33:43.

which is poorer, and more than many of the poorer regions in England

:33:44.:33:47.

get? Why is that fair? We have said that in terms of looking at go -

:33:48.:33:51.

local government spending playing out in this Parliament, we have

:33:52.:33:54.

looked at what the government has done which is having already

:33:55.:33:58.

deprived communities having money taken away from them and wealthier

:33:59.:34:02.

communities are getting more. We accept that the Barnett Formula has

:34:03.:34:09.

worked well. How has it works well? There is a cross parliamentary

:34:10.:34:11.

consensus as they don't know what to do about it. Why has it works well,

:34:12.:34:17.

when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm not sure by I accept that when you

:34:18.:34:22.

look at overall underspend -- government spending. It is per

:34:23.:34:26.

capita spending in Scotland, which is way ahead of per capita spending

:34:27.:34:33.

in Wales, but per capita incomes in Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why

:34:34.:34:38.

is that fair Labour politician? We have said we want to have more

:34:39.:34:42.

equitable distribution. You haven't, you have said you will keep the

:34:43.:34:46.

Barnett Formula. I'm not sure necessarily punishing Scotland is

:34:47.:34:51.

the way to go. The way that this debate is going, what message does

:34:52.:34:54.

it send to the Scottish people? I want to be clear, I am delighted

:34:55.:34:59.

with the result we have got. The unity and solidarity where

:35:00.:35:01.

maintaining across the nations of the United Kingdom. All of this

:35:02.:35:06.

separatist talk, setting up different nations of the UK against

:35:07.:35:09.

each other goes completely against what we've all been campaigning for

:35:10.:35:12.

over the last two years, and we shouldn't have any truck with it.

:35:13.:35:16.

Coming onto the announcement on the minimum wage, you would increase it

:35:17.:35:21.

by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which would be over five years. That is

:35:22.:35:25.

all you are going to do over five years. Have you worked out how much

:35:26.:35:31.

of this increase will be clawed back in taxation and fewer benefits? Work

:35:32.:35:38.

has been done on it. How much? I can't give you an exact figure. The

:35:39.:35:43.

policy pays for itself. The way we have looked at this, we looked at

:35:44.:35:48.

the government figures, and if people are earning more, they would

:35:49.:35:51.

therefore be paying more in income tax and they will be receiving less

:35:52.:35:56.

in benefit and will pay out less in tax credits, so we are confident

:35:57.:36:00.

that this will pay for itself. I'm not asking about the pavement, I'm

:36:01.:36:03.

asking what it means for low paid workers will stop they will get an

:36:04.:36:09.

extra 30p per hour -- about the payment. How much of the 30p to they

:36:10.:36:14.

get to keep? In terms of what they get in the first instance, somebody

:36:15.:36:19.

on the minimum wage now, with our proposal, would get in the region of

:36:20.:36:22.

?3000 a year more than they are at the moment. That is before tax and

:36:23.:36:28.

benefits. How much do they keep I cannot give you an exact figure Why

:36:29.:36:35.

don't you give me an exact figure if you've done the modelling? We are

:36:36.:36:38.

talking about some of the lowest paid people in the country, and I

:36:39.:36:42.

would suggest to you that going down this route, they would face a

:36:43.:36:48.

marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 % and they will not keep most of this

:36:49.:36:51.

increase you are talking about. I don't accept your figures. But you

:36:52.:36:56.

haven't got any of your own. I just don't have any in my head I can give

:36:57.:37:02.

you right now. Don't you think out policies before you announce them?

:37:03.:37:05.

Of course we think our policies before we announce them but we are

:37:06.:37:08.

confident people have more in their pocket and will be better off with

:37:09.:37:12.

the changes proposed, and we are also seeking to incentivise

:37:13.:37:14.

employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I

:37:15.:37:18.

said, the economy is recovering great, but we know, at the moment,

:37:19.:37:23.

it's still not delivering for a huge number of your viewers and we're

:37:24.:37:26.

determined to do something about it. The status quo is not an option And

:37:27.:37:29.

even joining me. Twice in three days. You can't have too much of a

:37:30.:37:35.

good thing. I am mad. He said that, not me.

:37:36.:37:37.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. We

:37:38.:37:40.

say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for

:37:41.:37:42.

Coming up here in twenty minutes, we'll be joined by John Prescott to

:37:43.:37:47.

talk about the challenge facing Labour as their conference starts

:37:48.:37:50.

Good morning. The sun is shhning and the Sunday Politics where you are.

:37:51.:38:07.

Good morning. The sun is shhning and we are live as we chew over enters

:38:08.:38:12.

week in both Scottish and English politics. Coming up, remembdr this?

:38:13.:38:22.

Mrs Bradley, will you sit down? Code the ghost of a Vim county c`n be

:38:23.:38:27.

back? Business leaders call for the political map of the West to be

:38:28.:38:31.

re`drawn as the government promises greater powers for Bristol. I'm

:38:32.:38:38.

joined this morning by James Gray, a Scot who has come down south and is

:38:39.:38:45.

a Conservative MP, and Don Foster, who we are told is related to the

:38:46.:38:53.

Fraser clan. James, you werd made a shadow Scottish minister in the

:38:54.:38:58.

Conservative government but you were fired after a week. Yes, I was a

:38:59.:39:05.

very strong unionist and I welcomed the results. I also welcomed what

:39:06.:39:10.

David Cameron said on the steps of Downing Street. If we are going to

:39:11.:39:15.

increase Scottish devolution, we have to correct the problems in

:39:16.:39:22.

England. You were fired bec`use you didn't want MFPs. I was firdd

:39:23.:39:29.

because I was proposing exactly what I was proposing! Don Foster, are we

:39:30.:39:41.

seeing the end of the union? Yes, it survived, but it will fragmdnt now.

:39:42.:39:48.

I'm delighted, I'm pleased there was such a clear and decisive rdsult.

:39:49.:39:52.

But it is vital we deliver on the promises that were made back in

:39:53.:39:57.

2012, not in the last few wdeks to give further devolution to the

:39:58.:40:04.

people of Scotland in the event of a no result. And secondly, to look at

:40:05.:40:09.

further devolution of powers away from Westminster to the reghons and

:40:10.:40:15.

of course further devolution to Wales, which we are doing. Lore on

:40:16.:40:25.

Scotland later. First, the Labour Party is pinning its hopes of

:40:26.:40:29.

winning back power by addressing concerns on the cost of livhng. Ed

:40:30.:40:34.

Miliband has promised a hikd in the minimum wage to ?8. It follows

:40:35.:40:41.

pledges to control increases in rent and cap energy bills. How wdll does

:40:42.:40:51.

all this play with voters? In the autumn sunshine, acthvists

:40:52.:40:54.

assembled to go leaflet distributing. In the forefront, they

:40:55.:41:03.

are supporting their general election candidate. It is absolutely

:41:04.:41:10.

crucial we win this seat, it will have an impact on whether wd have a

:41:11.:41:16.

Labour government next time. With her is local activist Andy Davies

:41:17.:41:20.

with first`hand experience of high housing costs. ?800 the quite a

:41:21.:41:27.

small property. She is helphng to pay her daughter's rent. Thdre is a

:41:28.:41:37.

shortfall of ?130 with the benefit so we are paying the differdnce it

:41:38.:41:40.

enables her to have somewhere secure to live. Fewer than a fifth of

:41:41.:41:47.

people live in private rentdd homes, said the policy may have little

:41:48.:41:52.

impact for Labour and their leader. I'm a private tenant, so rent

:41:53.:41:56.

control would be interesting. I probably would vote Labour `nyway. I

:41:57.:42:01.

work for a Housing Associathon so I know quite a lot about local rent. I

:42:02.:42:09.

think it's quite a good ide`. It won't get me to vote Labour. It is

:42:10.:42:14.

one policy. It wouldn't bring me back to Labour. The responsd of

:42:15.:42:21.

others is more difficult. L`bour proposes capping rent, but that our

:42:22.:42:33.

ICS says arbitrate caps are not a solution. They are also campaigning

:42:34.:42:52.

on specific issues. In the crowd is Conservative MP Chris Skidmore.

:42:53.:43:00.

Joining us now is one of Labour s biggest champions, Bristol LP Dawn.

:43:01.:43:03.

Thank you for coming on this morning. If you want to win, you

:43:04.:43:10.

need to take places like Swhndon and Kingswood in the West Country. How

:43:11.:43:17.

confident are you? I think with the right policies that are addressing

:43:18.:43:21.

the real problems people face, whether it be not having a home

:43:22.:43:26.

rent levels, having to do lots of part`time jobs, energy bills, these

:43:27.:43:32.

are the things around the cost of living crisis that Labour is talking

:43:33.:43:39.

about, that we here day in `nd day out from communities across the

:43:40.:43:44.

South West, in places like Kingswood, Swindon and Bristol

:43:45.:43:54.

South. This week, we need to set out how we're going to stop people

:43:55.:43:57.

living in fear about how thdy are going to pay their energy, whether

:43:58.:44:05.

they will have to move. How they make sure their children have access

:44:06.:44:14.

to decent schools. So are you going to promise an end to austerhty? Is

:44:15.:44:18.

that out of the window in a new Labour government? Well, people are

:44:19.:44:25.

much more understanding in recognising the challenges that our

:44:26.:44:28.

country faces. They know we have to live in a way that makes sure we are

:44:29.:44:33.

supporting those that we nedd to, but also dealing with the problems

:44:34.:44:38.

that we will inherit in unddrfunding the National Health Service. So what

:44:39.:44:46.

we have to do is make sure we can address those big, economic

:44:47.:44:50.

questions without punishing hard`working families. How would you

:44:51.:44:59.

do it? Well, if we had a higher national minimum wage, people in

:45:00.:45:04.

Kingswood and South Bristol would have more money to spend, they would

:45:05.:45:07.

be spending it locally on goods and services that need other people to

:45:08.:45:12.

be employed. If we make surd we build more houses rents will be

:45:13.:45:19.

decent, we are employing people coming out of the South Bristol

:45:20.:45:22.

College with the skills to work in that industry. That is the way

:45:23.:45:29.

forward. People are not daft, they know that you have to invest in

:45:30.:45:40.

order to grow. Thank you. J`mes Gray, Labour's plan is clear,

:45:41.:45:43.

they're going to hammer you on the cost of living. It is not clear

:45:44.:45:48.

Dawn made some very woolly points there. Minimum wage ` someone has to

:45:49.:45:57.

pay those minimum wages. Fixing rents gash therefore landlords would

:45:58.:45:59.

be accepting less than they currently do. Unemployment hs

:46:00.:46:15.

falling at a record rate. Don Foster, you've been in coalhtion.

:46:16.:46:24.

You guys are in it together The economy is recovering. Ordinary folk

:46:25.:46:28.

aren't feeling it, and this has been the recession paid for by the poor.

:46:29.:46:36.

That is what you both supervised. I don't think that is true. These

:46:37.:46:43.

Labour proposals are wrong. Firstly, rent control. We had that until

:46:44.:46:50.

1988, and up to their, the number of privately rented homes declhned

:46:51.:46:54.

dramatically. Now it has increased. Of course, we must tackle rogue

:46:55.:47:01.

landlords, but we've seen a doubling of the availability of priv`te

:47:02.:47:07.

rented accommodation. Yes, we need to build more homes. But people

:47:08.:47:13.

don't think of you as being on their side. One key thing we have done,

:47:14.:47:21.

something Labour has refused to back, is actually raising the tax

:47:22.:47:26.

threshold. That has taken 2 million of the lowest paid out of t`king ``

:47:27.:47:38.

paying tax altogether. That has put real money into the pockets of the

:47:39.:47:43.

less well off. That was a t`x cut for everybody, it was a tax cut the

:47:44.:47:51.

US well. `` a tax cut for you as well. We have improved the dconomy

:47:52.:48:02.

in a way that is fair. Now, back to the Scottish referendum. We could

:48:03.:48:10.

only watch down here as the Scots held the fate of the countrx in our

:48:11.:48:15.

hands. We were reminded Scots have their own parliament, free

:48:16.:48:19.

prescriptions, three kept the elderly and pre`hired on. Should we

:48:20.:48:27.

have that to? It has led to the calls for the creation of htge

:48:28.:48:36.

region government. It is an Atlantic port, just like

:48:37.:48:41.

Bristol. It fizzles with culture and music, just like Bristol. It is

:48:42.:48:46.

roughly the same size, and has an elected mayor, like Bristol. But

:48:47.:48:49.

there is one key difference between the way they do things in Lhverpool

:48:50.:48:55.

and Bristol. Here, the City Council has combined forces with thd

:48:56.:48:59.

surrounding local authoritids. They speak with one voice on matters like

:49:00.:49:04.

regeneration and transport. They hope that with the spirit of

:49:05.:49:08.

devolution very much in the air that will help them win mord money

:49:09.:49:13.

and power from Westminster. I meet the man in charge of this ndw beast.

:49:14.:49:18.

He says for Westminster, coling together is the only show in town.

:49:19.:49:25.

Governments have said they want to see structures like combined

:49:26.:49:30.

authorities in place, and they are essential requirements if any area

:49:31.:49:36.

is going to be able to get ` reasonable portion of national

:49:37.:49:39.

funding around growth devolved to them. If we don't go for th`t model,

:49:40.:49:47.

then you stand to lose out to other city regions who have gone down that

:49:48.:49:53.

road. It's not just the six Liverpool councils that havd

:49:54.:49:57.

combined. Regions around Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and Chatfidld have

:49:58.:50:02.

done the same. So, would Brhstol follow suit? 1 million people are

:50:03.:50:08.

served by the four councils. The current setup has been labelled

:50:09.:50:12.

slow, inefficient and bureatcratic by the man who used to head up the

:50:13.:50:15.

lake or's local enterprise partnership. Running anything with

:50:16.:50:23.

four politicians at a meeting who are primarily therefore thehr own

:50:24.:50:29.

interests, to guard their own interests, is a slow way to progress

:50:30.:50:40.

anything. Rather than having for representatives always carefully

:50:41.:50:46.

navigating each other, it would be more sensible for us to agrde who we

:50:47.:50:49.

are and what we want to do `ny more joined up way. Any talk of joining

:50:50.:50:54.

up councils in the West brings back finger pointing of what went on at a

:50:55.:51:00.

vent can dig out. You are a very silly woman indeed! It was `bolished

:51:01.:51:10.

in 1996. Memories of a bin still haunt the North Somerset le`der who

:51:11.:51:13.

sees no reason to redraw thd political map. For a lot of the

:51:14.:51:19.

communities outside a vent, whether that be North East Somerset North

:51:20.:51:23.

Somerset, a lot of the monex here was spent on services in thd centre

:51:24.:51:30.

of Bristol. So the services that people got in North Somerset were

:51:31.:51:34.

very poor and spas. That's the point. You can't tax people and

:51:35.:51:39.

spend it somewhere else and call it community involvement in local

:51:40.:51:43.

government. Council leaders say the status quo is working well, but

:51:44.:51:48.

government may be about to dmbark on a mystery tour of its own. Ht is

:51:49.:51:52.

important we have wider civhc engagement about how to improve

:51:53.:51:56.

governance throughout the UK, including how to empower our great

:51:57.:52:00.

cities. We will say more about this in the coming days. So, with the

:52:01.:52:07.

Scottish question finally sdttled and the mood music for more

:52:08.:52:10.

devolution in the regions, some are questioning whether it is thme for

:52:11.:52:14.

the Fab four councils of thd old a bin area to do what John Lennon once

:52:15.:52:23.

described. Come together! The leader of Bath and North East

:52:24.:52:26.

Somerset Council joins us, thank you for coming in. Is it a good idea for

:52:27.:52:33.

the councils of a vent to come back together? It is an absolutely

:52:34.:52:50.

disastrous idea. A Vernon `` Avon was one of the worst things to

:52:51.:52:57.

happen to the area. We have gone through three electoral cycles and

:52:58.:53:03.

that is delivering a lot now. You want the benefits that your area and

:53:04.:53:10.

South glass dish `` South Gloucestershire once it all for

:53:11.:53:19.

them. There may be debates because you are having important discussions

:53:20.:53:21.

about warehousing goes, where transport goes. We lost out on a

:53:22.:53:27.

Metro system because South Gloucestershire and Bristol could

:53:28.:53:30.

not agree the route. That would never have happened with ond

:53:31.:53:34.

authority. I don't see how xou can say that. There is an econolic boom

:53:35.:53:41.

going on in South Gloucestershire, there is development in Somdrset,

:53:42.:53:48.

North Somerset, Bristol. Yot can't have a lot of power... What you are

:53:49.:53:56.

talking about the forward dhfferent areas with different structtres

:53:57.:53:59.

This structure works very wdll for Bath and North East Somerset. If you

:54:00.:54:09.

are talking about bringing powers down to the regions, cannot work if

:54:10.:54:13.

you've got these little loc`l authorities? It is simple. Liverpool

:54:14.:54:21.

a group of local authorities decided it was in their interest to come

:54:22.:54:25.

together and work together hn that particular way. Here, we've got four

:54:26.:54:30.

local authorities who don't want to do it that way. It is perfectly

:54:31.:54:34.

possible for them to work together, which they do. A lot of dechsions

:54:35.:54:39.

are being made through the western England partnership on transport,

:54:40.:54:42.

economics and so on. They should be allowed to do it their way. It is

:54:43.:54:47.

possible to devolve powers down to different structures in different

:54:48.:54:52.

parts of the country. I'm a great believer in localism and I think the

:54:53.:54:55.

local people should decide. It seems to me that we have good, normal

:54:56.:55:02.

units of government here. If you put them all together, you might end up

:55:03.:55:09.

with a mass. I was a special adviser when we demolished Avon, so I

:55:10.:55:16.

wouldn't want to see it comd back. Well, you need mass to make things

:55:17.:55:21.

work. I don't think you do. We want the Fire Service to be Wiltshire

:55:22.:55:25.

`based. Big is not necessarhly beautiful. The problem with that is

:55:26.:55:32.

we have not got an Alex Sallond down there. Thank goodness! We don't have

:55:33.:55:38.

someone speaking powerfully for the region. At the height of her powers,

:55:39.:55:52.

only 80% of people knew that Margaret Thatcher was the ldader of

:55:53.:55:57.

the country. That was just `fter the Falklands War. So you can come up

:55:58.:56:13.

with how many people know their politicians. What people want is

:56:14.:56:19.

good delivery of services, good value for money. That is

:56:20.:56:23.

overwhelmingly the key issud. If you look around, we have good

:56:24.:56:27.

governance, the delivery of services. We have some of the best

:56:28.:56:32.

schools and health care. Do you want more power? I think devoluthon of

:56:33.:56:37.

more powers is a really good idea. It has to be a bottom`up process.

:56:38.:56:41.

Communities have to define what powers they want and the government

:56:42.:56:46.

has to listen. Devolution is clearly coming. Wales are going to get more

:56:47.:56:52.

power. They have a strong political voice. They will be heard in London

:56:53.:57:05.

in a way that we won't be. Look planning has to be done loc`lly

:57:06.:57:09.

That is an entirely different question to the 1 we're dealing with

:57:10.:57:17.

with the English question. We need to balance the English

:57:18.:57:19.

representation in Westminstdr to correct that. That is nothing to do

:57:20.:57:30.

with localism. We must move on. Thank you for coming in. Now,

:57:31.:57:38.

Scotland may have dominated the political news this week, btt that

:57:39.:57:42.

wasn't all that happened. Hdre is our rundown in 60 seconds. @

:57:43.:57:50.

shortage of staff may have put psychiatric patients in the West at

:57:51.:57:54.

risk. The a Vernon Wiltshird mental health partnership says it has taken

:57:55.:57:58.

action to address the concerns raised by the Care Quality

:57:59.:58:03.

Commission. Councillors in Swindon voted to hold a public enquhry into

:58:04.:58:08.

a fire at business cycling plant. Large piles of waste burned the two

:58:09.:58:12.

months before they were fin`lly put out on Monday. The role of the

:58:13.:58:16.

Council, Environment Agency and waste firm will all be examhned

:58:17.:58:22.

Welcher's Chief Constable is the latest to be investigated bx the

:58:23.:58:26.

police watchdog following complaints at the way his force handled

:58:27.:58:30.

allegations of sexual abuse. The Chief Constable welcomed thd

:58:31.:58:33.

enquiry. And for the sixth month in ` row,

:58:34.:58:38.

unemployment fell across thd West. Just under 27,000 people cl`imed

:58:39.:58:44.

job`seeker's allowance, but wages are struggling to keep up whth

:58:45.:58:51.

inflation. I think we've all learnt a lot about

:58:52.:58:56.

Scotland this week. Let's jtst come to you first, James. I you going to

:58:57.:59:00.

make it clear to the Prime Linister you will not accept further

:59:01.:59:03.

devolution, more powers for Scotland, unless England get their

:59:04.:59:08.

share to? That is correct. We cannot go ahead with the promise wd made to

:59:09.:59:12.

Scotland until English problems have been sorted out. It was not a

:59:13.:59:20.

promise, it was about, it c`nnot be ignored. The bow was made bx Gordon

:59:21.:59:31.

Brown. The parliament was not consulted, I will not vote for

:59:32.:59:34.

devolution to Scotland until such time as the English question is and

:59:35.:59:44.

said at the same time. At the time of the Edinburgh settlement in 012,

:59:45.:59:49.

all three UK party said there would be more devolution to Scotl`nd. In

:59:50.:59:53.

March of this year, all thrde parties repeated that pledgd. It was

:59:54.:59:58.

then repeated yet again with Gordon Brown and others just beford the

:59:59.:00:02.

referendum. We have got to deliver that pledge. There are issuds to do

:00:03.:00:07.

with devolution within Engl`nd, Wales and Northern Ireland which

:00:08.:00:13.

need addressing. Huge issues. Yes, I don't deny that, but you cannot

:00:14.:00:17.

allow that to derail the cldar commitment we made. How could you

:00:18.:00:22.

ever show your face in Scotland again if you go back on what the

:00:23.:00:25.

Prime Minister said would h`ppen? This is the difference betwden a

:00:26.:00:29.

government minister and a backbencher. All matters to me is

:00:30.:00:34.

the people of North Wiltshire. Well, on that note, we must leave you

:00:35.:00:40.

that is all we have time for. Thank you to my guests, Don Foster and

:00:41.:00:43.

James Gray. We'll be back ndxt week. the Conservative mayor's policy No

:00:44.:00:58.

more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you.

:00:59.:01:06.

Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined

:01:07.:01:08.

by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.

:01:09.:01:12.

I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.

:01:13.:01:17.

In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally

:01:18.:01:19.

the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.

:01:20.:01:22.

He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve

:01:23.:01:25.

Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish

:01:26.:01:36.

votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,

:01:37.:01:39.

why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament

:01:40.:01:45.

in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I

:01:46.:01:49.

certainly don't agree with that I campaign for powers to be given to

:01:50.:01:53.

the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?

:01:54.:01:56.

Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to

:01:57.:02:00.

Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a

:02:01.:02:08.

Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the

:02:09.:02:12.

alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and

:02:13.:02:17.

everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was

:02:18.:02:22.

my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year

:02:23.:02:29.

plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to

:02:30.:02:33.

turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if

:02:34.:02:36.

that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can

:02:37.:02:42.

get reform in a more federal structure, and even English

:02:43.:02:46.

parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the

:02:47.:02:49.

Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite

:02:50.:02:54.

radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in

:02:55.:02:58.

the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's

:02:59.:03:04.

assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they

:03:05.:03:07.

remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but

:03:08.:03:13.

don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their

:03:14.:03:18.

favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come

:03:19.:03:20.

up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page

:03:21.:03:27.

of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the

:03:28.:03:30.

time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you

:03:31.:03:34.

want real protection in England vote Conservative, and if you want

:03:35.:03:38.

Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is

:03:39.:03:42.

scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the

:03:43.:03:46.

constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same

:03:47.:03:50.

with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a

:03:51.:03:54.

fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years

:03:55.:03:58.

ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't

:03:59.:04:02.

mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are

:04:03.:04:07.

promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout

:04:08.:04:13.

of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The

:04:14.:04:17.

turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get

:04:18.:04:20.

people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation

:04:21.:04:25.

in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what

:04:26.:04:28.

you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they

:04:29.:04:33.

were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is

:04:34.:04:35.

about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in

:04:36.:04:39.

the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and

:04:40.:04:43.

you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,

:04:44.:04:46.

but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of

:04:47.:04:50.

power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.

:04:51.:04:53.

They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with

:04:54.:04:59.

what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up

:05:00.:05:02.

with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of

:05:03.:05:07.

city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a

:05:08.:05:10.

democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of

:05:11.:05:14.

Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of

:05:15.:05:18.

democratic link with the people I live in whole, and it stops on the

:05:19.:05:24.

boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from

:05:25.:05:29.

Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,

:05:30.:05:32.

and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city

:05:33.:05:36.

regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal

:05:37.:05:40.

structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with

:05:41.:05:43.

Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I

:05:44.:05:48.

believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options

:05:49.:05:52.

in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do

:05:53.:05:56.

in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will

:05:57.:05:59.

happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.

:06:00.:06:03.

You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,

:06:04.:06:07.

not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a

:06:08.:06:11.

separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English

:06:12.:06:17.

if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of

:06:18.:06:21.

Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put

:06:22.:06:24.

the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking

:06:25.:06:29.

about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do

:06:30.:06:32.

with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.

:06:33.:06:37.

Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.

:06:38.:06:41.

Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether

:06:42.:06:45.

it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the

:06:46.:06:49.

Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign

:06:50.:06:56.

lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to

:06:57.:07:00.

something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost

:07:01.:07:03.

Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to

:07:04.:07:08.

what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its

:07:09.:07:12.

different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about

:07:13.:07:16.

decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been

:07:17.:07:25.

thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is

:07:26.:07:28.

not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember

:07:29.:07:33.

covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping

:07:34.:07:38.

speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it

:07:39.:07:41.

was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not

:07:42.:07:44.

independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,

:07:45.:07:49.

an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that

:07:50.:07:53.

Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.

:07:54.:08:02.

In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on

:08:03.:08:09.

with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for

:08:10.:08:14.

30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I

:08:15.:08:17.

support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and

:08:18.:08:20.

make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources

:08:21.:08:25.

and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant

:08:26.:08:31.

today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in

:08:32.:08:35.

Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I

:08:36.:08:43.

can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What

:08:44.:08:49.

do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering

:08:50.:08:56.

about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,

:08:57.:09:00.

and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he

:09:01.:09:07.

started off on the minimum wage You are trying to deal with those left

:09:08.:09:11.

behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National

:09:12.:09:15.

Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved If

:09:16.:09:18.

you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you

:09:19.:09:22.

haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the

:09:23.:09:27.

priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that

:09:28.:09:31.

you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or

:09:32.:09:34.

paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives

:09:35.:09:40.

?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary

:09:41.:09:44.

people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the

:09:45.:09:47.

north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more

:09:48.:09:51.

to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably

:09:52.:09:56.

hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission

:09:57.:09:59.

coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I

:10:00.:10:05.

say, I know what we do, housing health, the people. That is our

:10:06.:10:09.

language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I

:10:10.:10:14.

think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the

:10:15.:10:18.

same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they

:10:19.:10:21.

think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks

:10:22.:10:27.

like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch

:10:28.:10:31.

started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the

:10:32.:10:37.

sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how

:10:38.:10:41.

long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record.

:10:42.:10:47.

-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and

:10:48.:10:51.

people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to

:10:52.:10:54.

the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is

:10:55.:11:00.

20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear

:11:01.:11:05.

anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it

:11:06.:11:11.

sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion

:11:12.:11:16.

of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why

:11:17.:11:22.

did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it,

:11:23.:11:26.

but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a

:11:27.:11:32.

hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an

:11:33.:11:36.

awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us.

:11:37.:11:41.

What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution

:11:42.:11:44.

and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public

:11:45.:11:48.

sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record

:11:49.:11:52.

straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the

:11:53.:11:56.

future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to

:11:57.:11:59.

change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something.

:12:00.:12:05.

Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates you

:12:06.:12:09.

were watching on the big screen when it came up that their favourite

:12:10.:12:14.

to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That

:12:15.:12:24.

is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not

:12:25.:12:27.

strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at

:12:28.:12:43.

a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,

:12:44.:12:48.

I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you

:12:49.:12:54.

back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for

:12:55.:12:59.

today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.

:13:00.:13:01.

my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily

:13:02.:13:05.

11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by

:13:06.:13:10.

We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for

:13:11.:13:14.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:15.:13:22.

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