14/09/2014 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.


Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out


their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.


They released a video late last night, showing a masked man


beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.


The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.


Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.


David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.


As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA


President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder


Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as


he predicts a historic and substantial victory in


As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,


I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his


And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown


David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask


In the West. The doctor won't see it's enough to win over waverers.


In the West. The doctor won't see you now. Surgeries teeter on the


brink of closing step closer back to Parliament. Is


it a lame-duck administration? Late last night, as most folk were


preparing for bed, news broke that Islamic State extremists had carried


out their threat to murder the The group released a video, similar


to the ones in which two American journalists were decapitated,


showing a masked man apparently beheading Mr Haines who was taken


captive in Syria last year. The terrorist,


who has a southern British accent, also threatened the life


of a second hostage from the UK Mr Haines is


the third Westerner to be killed His family have paid tribute to


his humanitarian work; they say he David Cameron described the murder


as an act of pure evil, and said his heart went out to Mr Haines


family, who had shown extraordinary Mr Cameron went on to say,


"We will do everything in our power to hunt down these murderers


and ensure they face justice, Mr Haines was born in England


and brought up in Scotland. Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond


condemned the killing on the Marr Well, it's an act of unspeakable


barbarism that we have seen. Obviously our condolences go to the


family members of David Haynes who have borne this with such fortitude


in recent months -- David Alex Salmond was also asked


whether he supported military action Haines there is no reason to believe


whatsoever that China or Russia or any country will see their will to


deal with this barbarism. There is a will for effective, international,


legal action but it must come in that fashion, and I would urge that


to be a consideration to develop a collective response to what is a


threat to humanity. Our security correspondent


Gordon Corera joins me now Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra


emergency meeting is meeting yet again. It meets a lot these days. I


would suggest that the options facing this committee and Mr Cameron


are pretty limited. That's right. I think they are extremely limited.


They have been all along in these hostage situations. We know, for


instance, that British government policy is not to pay ransom is to


kidnappers. Other Europeans states are thought to have done so to get


hostages released, and also not to make substantive policy concessions


to the groups, so while there might be contact, there won't be a lot of


options left. We know the US in the past has looked at rescue missions


and in July on operation to free the hostages, landing at the oil


facility in Syria but finding no one there. If you look at the options,


they are not great. That is the difficult situation which Cobra will


have been discussing the last hour. Does this make it more likely,


because it might have the direction the government was going in any way,


that we join with the Americans in perhaps the regional allies in air


strikes against Islamic State, not just in Iraq, but also in Syria We


heard from President Obama outlining his strategy against Islamic State


last week when he talked about building a coalition, about


authorising air strikes. And training troops. We are still


waiting to hear what exact role the UK will play in that. We know it


will play a role because it has been arming the fishmonger forces but the


question is, will it actually conduct military strikes in Iraq --


arming the passion are there. We have not got a clear answer from


government and that is something where they are ours to discuss what


was around the table. It's possible we might learn some more today as a


result of the Cobra meeting, but I think the government will be wanting


to not be seen to suddenly rushed to a completely different policy as a


result of one incident, however terrible it is. Whether it hardens


their reserve -- resolved to play more active role in the coalition,


that's possible, but we have to wait see to get the detail. -- wait and


see. What the whole country would like to see would be British and


American special forces going in and getting these guys. I think that


would unite the nation. But that is very difficult, isn't it? It is As


you saw with a rescue mission a few months ago, the problem is getting


actionable intelligence on the ground at a particular moment. The


theory is that the group of kidnappers are moving the hostages


may be even every or few days, so you need intelligence and quickly


and then you need to be able to get the team onto the ground into that


time frame. That is clearly a possibility and something they will


be looking at, but it certainly challenging, particularly when you


have a group like this operating within its own state, effectively,


and knowing that other people are looking very hard for it and doing


everything they can to hide. Gordon, thank you very much.


Clegg dropped everything and headed to Scotland when a poll last Sunday


gave the YES vote its first ever lead in this prolonged referendum


If their reaction looked like panic, that's because it was.


Until last weekend, though the polls had been narrowing,


the consensus was still that NO would carry the day.


The new consensus is that it's too close to call.


If we look back at the beginning of the year, public opinion in Scotland


was fairly settled. The no campaign had a commanding lead across the


opinion polls, excluding the undecided voters. At one point, at


the end of last year, an average of 63% backed the no campaign and only


37% supported a yes vote. As we move into 2014 and up to this week, you


can see a clear trend emerging as the lead for the no campaign gets


narrower and narrower and the average of the most recent polls has


the contest hanging in the balance. There was a poll a week ago that put


the Yes campaign in the lead for the first time, 51% against 49%, but


that lead was not reflected in the other polls last week. For polls


were published last night, one by Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign


-- Better Together campaign, and there was another that gave a one


percentage point different. ICM have the yes campaign back in the lead at


54% and the no campaign at 46%, but their sample size was 705 Scottish


adults, smaller than usual. Another suggests that the contest remains on


a knife edge with 49.4% against 50.6%. When fed into the poll of


polls the figures average out with yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %.


But some people think 18% are undecided, and it is how they vote


gets -- when they get to the polling booths that could make all the


difference. campaigner and Respect Party MP


George Galloway. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big


business, big oil, big banks, the Tories, the Orange order, all


against Scottish independence. You sure you are on right side? Yes


because the interests of working people are in staying together. This


is a troubled moment in a marriage, a very long marriage, in which some


good things and bad things have been achieved together. And there is no


doubt that the crockery is being thrown around the house of the


minute. But I believe that the underlying interests of working


people are on working on the relationship rather than divorce. I


have been divorced. It's a very messy, acrimonious, bitter affair


and it's particularly bad for the children will stop that's why I am


here. You talk about working people, and particularly Scottish working


people, they seem to have concluded that the social democracy they want


to create cannot now be done in a UK context. Why should they not have a


shot of going it alone? Because the opposite will happen. Separation


will cause a race to the bottom in taxation. Alex Salmond has already


announced he will cut the taxes on companies, corporation tax, down to


3% hello whatever it is in the rest of these islands. And business will


only be attracted to come here, country of 5 million people on if


there is low regulation, low public expenditure, low levels of taxation


for them will stop you cannot have Scandinavian social democracy on


Texan levels of taxation. The British government, as will be, the


rest of the UK, they will race Alex Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it


by three, they will cut it by four. And so on. So whether some people


cannot see it clearly yet or not, the interests of the working people


on both sides of the border would be gravely damaged by separation. Let's


take the interest of the working people. As you know, as well as


anyone, the coalition is in fermenting both a series of cuts and


reforms in welfare, and labour, Westminster Labour, has only limited


plans to reverse any of that. Surely if you want to preserve the welfare


state as it is, independence is the way to do it. For the reasons I just


explain, I don't believe that. But Ed Miliband will be along in a


minute. He will be along in May The polls indicate... They say he is


only four or 5%, that is the average. Like the referendum, the


next general election could be nip and tuck. I don't, myself, think


that the time of David Cameron as Prime Minister is for much longer. I


think there will be a Labour government in the spring and the


Labour government in London and a stronger Scottish Parliament, super


Devo Max, that is now on the table. That is the best arrangement of


people in the country. But the people of Scotland surely cannot


base a decision on independence on your feeling that Labour might win


the next general election. It is my feeling. When the Tories were beaten


on the bedroom tax last week in the house, it was written all over the


faces of the government side not only that they were headed for


defeat, but probably a massive fishy -- Fisher. I think the race to the


bottom that I have proper size will mean that the welfare state will be


a distant memory quite soon. The cuts and the run on the Scottish


economy here in Edinburgh, the financial services industry, that


will be gravely damage. The Ministry of Defence jobs in Scotland


decimated, probably ended, more or less. It will be a time of cuts and


austerity, maybe super austerity in an independent Scotland. You


mentioned defence. What about nuclear weapons? The Tories and


Labour will keep them. You are against them. Surely the only way to


be rid of them in Scotland is by independence. But you are not rid of


them by telling them down the river. The danger would be the same --


telling them down the river. The danger would be the same. Nuclear


radiation does not respect Alex Salmond's national boundaries. They


would be committed to immediately joining NATO, which is bristling


with nuclear weapons and is what -- involved in wars across the


Atlantic. So anyone looking for a peace option will have to elect a


government in Britain as a whole that will get rid of nuclear weapons


and get out of military entanglements. We are in one again


now. I have been up the whole night, till 5am, dealing with some of the


consequences and implications of the grave international matter that you


opened the show with. David Haines and the fate of the hostage still in


their hands. There are many other hostages as well. And there are many


people dying who are neither British nor American. I have, somehow, been


drawn into this matter. And it showed me, again, that the world is


interdependent. It is absolutely riven with division and hatred, and


this is the worst possible time to be opting out of the world to set up


a small mini-state on the promises of Alex Salmond of social democracy


funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for the sake of the next question,


assume that everything you have told us is true. Why is your side


squandering a 20 point lead? I will have a great deal to say


about that, whatever the result This is very much a Scottish Labour


project, is that not a condemnation of Scottish Labour? It is


potentially on its deathbed. The country breaking up, the principal


responsibility will be on them. And the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job


that has been made of defending a 300-year-old relationship in this


island by the Scottish Labour leadership is really terrible for me


to behold, even though I'm no longer one of them. I don't know how they


are going to get out of this deathbed. Do you agree that if this


referendum is lost by your side it will be because traditional


working-class Labour voters, particularly in the west of


Scotland, have abundant Labour and decided to vote for independence?


Without a doubt, the number of Labour voters intending to vote yes


is disturbingly high. Even just months ago during the European


Parliament elections, swathes of people who didn't vote SNP will be


voting yes on Thursday. That is a grave squandering of a great legacy


of Scottish Labour history, which history will decree as


unforgivable. If Labour is to get out of its deathbed in Scotland it


will have to become Labour again. Real Labour again. I am ready to


help them with that. My goodness, they need help with it. I wonder if


it isn't just a failure of Labour in Scotland. People all over Britain


are increasingly fed up with the Westminster system, but it is only


the Scots who currently have the chance to break free from it, so why


shouldn't they? That is exactly right. They see a parliament of


expenses cheats led by Lord snooty and the Bullingdon club elite,


carrying through austerity for many but not for themselves and they are


repulsed by it. They need change, but you can go backwards and call it


change but it will be worse than the situation you have now. A lot of


Scottish people don't buy that. It is a big gamble. If I were poised to


put my family's life savings on the roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife


would not be scaremongering if she pointed out the potential


consequences if I'd lost. She would not be negative by telling me that


is my children's money I am risking. If I jumped off this roof it would


change my point of view, but it would be worse than the point of


view I have now. There is another issue here because the Scots are


being asked to gamble on the Westminster parties, which they are


already suspicious of, of delivering home rule. Alistair Darling could


not even tell me if Ed Balls had signed off on more income tax powers


for Scotland, so that is a gamble for the Scots. I feel the British


state has had such a shake out of all this that they would be beyond


idiots, they would be insane now to risk all of this flaring up again


because whatever happens, if we win on Thursday, it is going to be


narrowly. It will be a severe fissure in Scotland. A great deal of


unpleasantness that we are already aware of. That could turn but we're


still. It would be dicing with death, playing with fire, to let


Scottish people down after Thursday if we narrowly win. If you narrowly


win, and if there are moves to this home rule Mr Brown has been talking


about, England hasn't spoken yet on this. Whilst England would probably


not want to stop -- stop Scotland getting this, they would say, what


about us? It could delay the whole procedure. It is necessary, you are


right. England should have home rule, and I screamed at Scottish


Labour MPs going into the vote to introduce tuition fees in England. I


told them this was a constitutional monstrosity, as well as a crime


against young people in England It was risking everything. We are led


by idiots. Our leaders are not James Bonds, they are Austin powers. We


need to change the leadership, not rip up a 300-year-old marriage.


Thank you. It's been one of the longest and


hardest fought political campaigns in history, with Alex Salmond firing


the starting gun on the referendum Adam's been stitching together


the key moments of the campaign It is the other thing drawing people


to the Scottish parliament, the new great tapestry of Scotland. It is


the story of battles won and lost, Scottish moments, British moments,


famous Scots, and not so famous Scots. There is even a panel


dedicated to the rise of the SNP. Alex Salmond's majority in the


elections in 2011 made the referendum inevitable. It became


reality when he and David Cameron did a deal in Edinburgh one year


later. The Scottish Government set out its plans for independence in


this book, just a wish list to some, a sacred text to others. This White


Paper is the most detailed improvements that any people have


ever been offered in the world as a basis for becoming an independent


country. The no campaign, called Better Together, united the Tories,


Labour and the Lib Dems under the leadership of Alistair Darling. Then


the Scottish people were bombarded with two years of photo


opportunities and a lot of campaigning. For the no campaign,


Jim Murphy went on tour but took a break when he was egged and his


events were often hijacked by yes campaigners who were accused of


being intimidating. In turn, they accused the no campaign of using


scare tactics. Things heated up when the TV dinner -- during the TV


debate. Fever pitch was reached one week ago when one poll suggested the


yes campaign was in the lead for the first time. The three main


Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to head north. I think people can feel


it is like a general election, that you make a decision and five years


later you can make another decision if you are fed up with the Tories,


give them a kick... This is totally different. And Labour shelved not


quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex Salmond took a helicopter instead.


This is about the formation of the NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign


is that changes to the NHS in Linden -- in England would lead to


privatisation in Scotland. Alex Salmond's plan to share the pound


was trashed by big names. There were other big question is, what would


happen to military hardware like Trident based on the Clyde? Would an


independent Scotland be able to join the EU? And how much oil was left


underneath the North Sea? This panel is about famous Scots, we


have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry, Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon


Brown. These are big changes we are proposing to strengthen the Scottish


parliament, but at the same time to stay as part of the UK. A regular on


the campaign, he was front and centre when things got close,


unveiling a timetable for more devolution. People wondered whether


Ed Miliband was able to reach the parts of Scotland Labour leader


should reach, and at Westminster some Tories pondered whether David


Cameron could stay as prime minister if there was a yes vote. This


tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a good place to get away from it all


but it is crystallising voters' views. Look at what we have


contributed to Great Britain, and I am British and I hope to be staying


British. This is what people from Scotland have done, taken to the


rest of the world in many cases and I think I am going to vote yes. I am


so inspired by it. It has certainly inspired me to have a go at


stitching. How long do you think it would take to do the whole thing? I


would say to put aside maybe 30 hours of stitching. Maybe by the


time I am done, we will know more about how the fabric of the nation


might be changing. And I've been joined


by yes campaigner and convenor of Scotland's Solidarity socialist


party, Tommy Sheridan. An economy dependent on oil, the


Queen as head of state, membership of the world 's premier nuclear


alliance of capitalist nations is that the socialist Scotland you are


fighting for? No, that is the SNP's prospectus and they are entitled to


put forward their vision, but it is not mine or that of the majority of


Scotland. We will find out in two years. On Thursday we are not voting


for a political party, we are voting for our freedom as a country. That


is why people are going to vote yes on Thursday. A lot of people are


voting for what you call freedom because they think it will be more


Scotland. You have already got free prescriptions, no tuition fees, free


care for the elderly. You might not in future have that if public


spending is overdependent on the price of oil, over which you have no


control. We don't have to worry about one single resource, we


already have 20% of the fishing stock in Europe. We already have 25%


of the wind, wave and solar power generation. We, as an independent


country, have huge resources, natural resources but also people


resources. We have five first-class universities, food and beverages


industry which is the envy of the world. We have the ability to


produce the resources on the revenues that won't just maintain


the health service and education but it will develop health and


education. I don't want to stand still, I want to redistribute


wealth. But all of the projections of public spending for an


independent Scotland show that to keep spending at the current level


you need a strong price of oil and you are dependent on this commodity


which goes up and down and sideways. That is a gamble. I have got to


laugh because I have been told the most pessimistic is that in 40 years


the oil is running out, panic stations! If you were told by the


BBC you could only guarantee employment for the next 40 years you


would be over the moon. I am talking about in the next five. You need 50%


of your revenues to come from oil to continue spending and that is not a


guarantee. Of course it is, the minimum survival of the oil is 0


years. Please get your viewers to go onto the Internet and look at the


website called oilandgas.com. The West Coast has 100 years of oil to


be extracted. It hasn't been done because in 1981 Michael Heseltine


said we cannot extract the oil because we have Trident going up and


down there. Let's get rid of Trident and extract the oil. You are a trot


right, why have you failed to learn his famous dictum, socialism in one


country is impossible. Revolutions and change are not just single


event. What will happen here on Thursday is a democratic revolution.


The people are fed up of being patronised and lied to by this mob


in Westminster who have used and abused us for far too long. The


smaller people now have a voice What about socialism in one


country? Mr Trotsky warned you against that. The no campaign


represents the past. The yes campaign represents the future. That


is the truth of the matter. What we are going to do in an independent


Scotland is tackle inequality and a scourge of low pay. If we vote no on


Thursday, there will be more low pay on Friday, more poverty and food


banks on Friday. I'm not going to be lectured by these big banks, you


vote less -- yes and we will leave the country! The food banks will be


the ones closing. If you got your way, for the type of Scotland you


would like to see, state control of business, nationalisation of the


Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be clogged with people


Yes, hoping to come into Scotland, because in their hearts, the


Scottish people know that England want to see the people having the


bottle. The working class people in Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of


London, they are saying good on the jocks that are taking on big


business. When we are independent and investing in social housing the


people of England will say, we can do that as well, and they will


rediscover the radical tradition. In wanting to build socialism in one


country, it really means you are fighting for the few, rather than


the many. You are bailing out of the socialist Battle for Britain. You


think it will be easier to make it work. Think globally, act locally


and we will build socialism in Scotland but I wanted across the


world. I won my brothers and sisters in England and Wales to be


encouraged by what we do so they can reject the Westminster consensus as


well -- I want. We had the three Stooges coming up to London, three


millionaires united on one thing, austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed


Miliband wins the next election he said he would stick to the story


spending cuts. Why vote for Ed Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to


run a bath, not a country. Let's see if this is realistic, this great


socialist vision. At the last Scottish election, the Socialist


party got 8000 votes. The Conservatives got 30 times more


votes. Where is the appetite in Scotland for your Marxist ideology


question we might not win it. But do you know what, see in two years


time. See when we have the Scottish general election. You won't -- you


are saying you might win and you went to the Holyrood election and


got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won a democratic election and then won


the 2011 election and you know why they won? Because they picked up the


clothes that the Labour Party has thrown away. They picked up the


close of social democracy and protecting the health service was --


service. There are people in the SNP who believe in public ownership and


people in the SNP who believe in the NHS should be written into a


constitution as never for sale people in the the SNP that think the


Royal mail should return to public ownership. That is there in black


and white. Do you agree with George Galloway that this is potentially a


crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish Labour is finished. They are


absolutely finished. George is right in that. Scottish Labour is


finished. The irony of ironies is, Labour in Scotland has more chance


of recovery in an independent Scotland that they have in a no


vote. Labour in Scotland in an independent country will have to


rediscover the traditions of Keir Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon,


because right now, they are to the right of the SNP as a political


party. I understand the socialist vision, but it is where the appetite


is. And you look at the independence people in Scotland. One of your


colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who fought against the appeal -- repeal


of homosexual rights in Scotland. Another of your allies would seem to


be Rupert Murdoch, the man who engineered your downfall. You say he


engineered your downfall, but I m still here and his newspaper has


closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch, Brian Souter, or any other


millionaire supporting independence, I couldn't care less. This boat on


Thursday is not about millionaires, it is about the millions. -- this


vote. We will not be abused any young -- longer. Would you rather


not have their support? I couldn't care about the support. You know who


is supporting the union. It is the unions of the big businesses, the


BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who support it. You are giving me a


stray that has wandered into the campaign and are you seriously going


to argue with me that the establishment isn't united to try


and save the union? That is what they are trying to be. The BBC, you


have been a disgrace in your coverage of the campaign. Not you


personally. You don't have editorial control. The BBC coverage,


generally, has been a disgrace and the people. Oil and gas, go and look


at that, why is that not feature. Why is the idea of 100 years of oil


not featured in the campaign. Because the BBC does not want to see


it. Are you getting in your excuses if you lose? You better be kidding.


Is this the face of somebody looking to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40.


Absolutely. There is a momentum that you guys are not seeing on the


working-class housing estates. Working class people are fed up


being taken for granted fed up with the lives of people dragging us into


tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor. They will have power on Thursday,


and they will use it and vote for freedom. Are you happy with the way


the BBC has treated you today? So far, yes. I have still not been


offered a Coffey, but that might happen. That is an obvious example


of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to you later with George Galloway.


Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics in the West.


We are back, it's nice to be with you ag`in.


They warn surgeries may havd to close as there aren?t enough GPs


We will be examining the crisis that is causing doctors


to leave the profession thex work so hard to join.


And on our consulting room couch this Sunday, both of them hoping to


pull a sickie, they are the former Labour MP Anne Snelgrove and deputy


This time next week we may not even have a United Kingdom,


I was born British and I want to remain British,


I do hope that Scotland stays with us.


Any Scots with a vote out there ` vote for the union.


Neil, you must be able to understand that people want to leave the EU,


I could understand that if what was on offer was real independence, but


they want have their economhc policy effectively decided by the Bank of


England and everything else decided by their masters in Brussels.


That doesn?t seem like real independence.


But what will happen if Scotland vote No


and all those extra powers `re given to the devolved parliament there?


There will then be growing demand for something in England


which stops Scottish MPs voting on purely English issues.


Gordon Brown is up there, hd seems to think he?s Prime Minister again.


He is making huge offers to the Scots!


I think those offers have bden worked out on a cross`party basis,


I don?t think it?s just Gordon going off on his own in doing that.


I'm glad to see that everybody is pulling the stops out.


I was glad to see David Camdron up there this week,


I think the Prime Minister of the Britain and should bd there,


We want to send a message to the Scots cross`party,


OK we will talk more about that later on.


First, it seems that one of the pillars of the community, the local


Doctors say morale is at an all`time low as they struggle


Older GPs are retiring earlx, while younger doctors are t`king


It has caused a shortage of staff which could see surgeries close


I found that the conflicting demands were greater than I could ddal with.


That the pressure was such that I had a feeling of panic most days. I


wondered, can I get through all the demands and conflicting dem`nds of


running the business? Of seding the patients, of dealing with the


admin, the results, the prescriptions, the referrals. Screen


`` strain is beginning to show. In June, two doctors left this Bristol


surgery blaming work pressures. Now this practices shut the two days


away because they cannot find the stuff to keep it open. People living


nearby grade. I think it will be harder to get an appointment. You're


definitely going to wait longer And in convenience of patients having to


get onto buses, that's if they can get out of the house! In a


statement, the Government s`id: Just as GPs warning of a, political


parties are permitting to m`ke it easier to see your doctor. The Lib


Dems say they want to see what out of hours appointments, UKIP want to


see GPs open in the evenings if there is the demand. The


Conservatives say they want GPs open at evenings and weekends. L`bour,


say if Alexa, they will be `ble to see your GP within 48 hours


guaranteed. It all leaves doctors asking where on earth the stuff will


come from. I actually think politicians promises vanish in the


dawn. There is no point in promising unlimited rice pudding if you can't


harvest the rice. And if `` the rice of general practice is very scarce


on the ground, the paddy fidlds are empty, and most of the rice because


of emigrated. We shouldn't `nd a metaphor to four, but, therd is a


serious problem and it starts from a demographic where people of my


generation are looking for the exit door in their droves. I've never


known so many of my colleagtes retiring early. Because the pressure


of the work is just too much,. Using that specialise in part with


patients. This member of thd health Select Committee provoked a storm


when she called for people to be charged if they missed appohntments.


People do not how much their appointment costs. I think simple


things like understanding when you see a GP, it is not free, it costs


about 30 quid. Understanding that, people take their own decishons as


to whether they think they need to go and see a GP for that money.


People are sensible generally, and if we understand what we cost the


state we will generally takd much more sensible decisions. Whhle


politicians argue, it is believed several other surgeries in the West


will soon be pulling down their shutters as doctors cry out for a


cure to their ills. We asked to speak to the Government and NHS


England about this but both turned down now offer, we couldn't get an


appointment. We can now spe`k to Doctor Holly Hardy who handdd in her


notice earlier this year. Doctor Hardy also oversees the trahning of


junior doctors in the city. Welcome. Doctors in Britain are the


second`highest paid in the world, the highest`paid in Europe. You d


expect to bit of pressure for that sort money? has always been


pressure, but the point is, every system reaches its limit and because


there is so much more work coming out of secondary care, from


hospitals into primary care, general practice, for GPs and nurses, and


patients, problems are getthng more complex and patients are living


longer. The workload has gone up, and I think the appointments have


more than doubled in quite ` short time. Is a tough job. But on the


other side, because doctors are paid so much, so the partners will be


well over 100,000, often now might other doctors and so they c`n afford


to take early retirement. Why wouldn't you? I think the ddcision


to take early retirement is a personal decision. If you c`n afford


it? It is not just about th`t, it is about being able to sustain yourself


in the role and if we are fhnding lots of GPs leaving in their 50s,


that says something about the workload because most would carry on


because they love their jobs, if they could. I don't think any doctor


would leave. If we are so short of doctors, I don't understand why


youngsters leaving school whth three straight A 's in good subject, says


medical school? With three straight says they would get in. It hs


compared to did to get in. Lots have been turned away. We don not


training of doctors are we? The many people wants to be doctors? There is


an issue of supply. So, how may be people to medical school and how


many of us are trained to bd GPs, but the other issue is how lany were


losing and the balance is wrong and there is about a ten year lhke. If


we try up and rectify what hs happening now... The clip w`s saying


it is not a popular choice for doctors, but there is a lot of


demand for people to become medics? There is, but general practhce is


not a pillar at the moment for the reasons you see. The media portrayal


is that it is difficult job and people are leaving and it is an


unpleasant job. I would say, I'm a GP, I'm still a GP despite ly


problems, and other doctors are choosing to go into hospital


medicine and win it encourage that, we need at least 50% of thel to


become GPs are not stay in hospital. It was a Labour Government that


brought in this country which gave GPs a good pay deal. It also


relieved them of out of hours work. Although not a big mistake? It has


not. We were able to fulfil the 48`hour pledge up until 2010. It was


the Coalition Government th`t scrapped it. It is the ?1.3 billion


reorganisation we have seen of the NHS which has put a huge amount of


work on to GPs and GP practhces I do reject that. For me, it hs very


worrying that young doctors, newly trained doctors are not going into


GP surgery to basics like that. Because we do need to attract the


young and the bright. Be ond no pulses to address that? we have We


will make sure that the burdaucracy that this Government said it


wouldn't do but has actuallx brought, and the pressure on GPs.


The pressure is ameliorated in some way. We must make sure that GPs have


the space to do their job which is not what is happening. Neil, I have


been looking at the UKIP website are trying find out your health policy.


Six words: Open GPs surgerids in the evening. You want tax cuts `s well?


we will be announcing our policies at Doncaster Conference in ` few


weeks. Dalby revealed at th`t point. But I think most people will find it


difficult to sympathise with the argument that is being put forward,


that people are being paid on average, more than 100,000 ` year.


Or how overworked they are just can't cope. Most people strdss in


their lives and I do not sed why doctors should be any more stressed


than anybody else. My wife's father was a GP in the 1940s through to the


1960s, and, in those days, he was on call 24 hours a day. If you went to


the cinema and something pops up on the screen same all the doctor


please go to the reception `nd a beer foam core from a patient. you


should come as bad a day with us in general practice as bad a d`y with


us in general practice and see what it is like! I have been a GP for


over 20 years and I concur with what you are saying. We used to do on


call, and now the out of hotrs Rangers are different. But different


pressures, so many things all at once. One GP said he thought


panicking `` panicky everyd`y. Do they that is happening across the


West Country? I think it is a national problem. Especiallx for


young doctors, right at the start of their careers. It is very worrying.


Writing the big problem is the NHS is so vast, it consumes so


Government spending, so how do you match demand to the resourcds? Are


you committed to it? Yes, wd are. Charging people to see their doctor


is what Charlotte Leslie was advocating. I think that is a


disaster. We have to leave ht there. Thank you. Now back to the Scottish


referendum. Who knows which way the vote will go, but if they ddcide to


stay as part of the UK, thex will get more powers. But where does that


leave us English? The south`west is about the same size as Scotland with


the same amount of people. Do we need more powers to? Lots of passion


and promises. We are proposhng the Scottish parliament should have


increased powers. In welfard, in social and economic policy, and in


finance. Gordon Brown have the backing of Westminster's three


biggest parties. The more power for Holyrood would increase what people


say is a democratic deficit south of the border in Westminster and in the


West Country. English polithcians would have even less that the less


sale over what happens in Scotland while Scottish MPs will still vote


on our Parliament. Experts reckon there will be demands for change,


not just our parliament, but even for English regional devolution no


vote would mean more power, then people might actually get the link


of saying Scottish... We have got to get a bit more power from


Westminster, Wales, Northern Ireland, some of the conurb`tions.


is easy to be cynical about attitude of voters to local governments. Only


a third turn out to vote in council elections, after all. The l`st


attempt to do this fell flat. The talk will the good things that could


be showered on Scotland does stoke up some passion. There is no reason


at all they should get anything better than others. I do not see why


they should have additional powers. the next step will be Yorkshire


wanting independence! That the zoom the south`west will do the same It


could be the start of quite a lot of aggro. They want more, they want


more, they want more. And it gets more if they vote no. It is not


fair. Could idea of elected regional as emblems be revived? Efforts by


the last Government were mocked by critics and rejected in a rdferendum


in the north`east of England. we tried this in the other 2000s and it


didn't work, there are many reasons why, one of them was that it was not


really a bottom`up process, it was forced by new Labour. The powers


given at that time were fairly weak and some would argue, quite pathetic


inability of two the actual local government structures. one notable


south`west resident who is passionate about giving powdr to the


people is Billy Bragg. why hsn't it a good thing for England if it is


good for Scotland? To engagd young people, you must make them feel they


are heard. Better devolution will begin to re`engage that process and


we could start to get peopld to feel that their voice is heard. Hf there


were regional assemblies, wd would be able to decide perhaps, with the


north`east and north`west on important issues like agrictlture,


fisheries and care. And if hn the south`west we have the same powers


as Holyrood, we would have things like student fees, prescriptions.


There was much talk about ddvolved powers. The debate over how Scotland


is ruled is nearly over. Thd debate over how England will be run is just


beginning. Let's pick up on some of those issues. Neil, you're like Alex


Salmond without the kilt on June? The same arguments about le`ving the


EU as him about leaving the UK. Quite the opposite. He's not


offering real independence. He is prepared to allow the Bank of


England... We want Britain to be an independent, self`governing country


again. I understand why the Scots might think that if they ard


nationalists. But what is bding offered to the Scottish people is a


bogus choice and bogus independence. They want independence if they vote


yes. But they will be leaving the EU as far as we understand if they vote


yes and they will have to ndgotiate to get back in? If it meant the rest


of the UK left automaticallx I would be voting for Scottish


independence! But I do not think that is the case. There is no


question that Scotland will remain in the EU. Will they have to adopt


the Euro if they do? Labour tried regional assemblies, trying to get


the minute the north`east and they were given a great big fat


raspberry. Nobody wanted thdm. and there is no clamour in the


south`west either. We need to look at a different system. We h`ve to


wait on the outcome of next week's referendum. What I would like to see


is something we have had a look at with the Adonis report, is groups of


local authorities coming together and working in the weather greater


Manchester authorities work. So they are looking at a specific area. That


would work for Cornwall, but it would also work. Wind and, because


we are different, though in the same region. I am looking at a mtch


looser federation of areas, pubs of towns and country areas, whhch have


things in common. Would that work? Some sort of federal system? No I


don't think so. Does Cornwall feel much affinity with Gloucestdrshire


or Dorset? It is merely a unit of Government and people do not have an


affinity with it. Scotland `nd Wales are nations, that is differdnt.


Inevitably's inevitably, th`t creates different emotional


pressures, there is no publhc demand for regional assemblies in Dngland


because people don't feel any connection with other regions. When


you see National is in Scotland comedy like a? Yes, but I sde it in


a UK context. I was raising Wales, and I can understand `` I w`s raised


in Wales. I can understand why people feel more affinity whth it


than the UK. I don't share that affinity, but... If Scotland goes,


how tough the youth in the settlement deal should be? we need


to look at that if or when ht happens. I do not want to sde us


getting into that kind of argument. It is clear as a bell, that we will


suffer, financially, as the Scots will suffer financially. , Neil


Nigel Farage we say we should drive a hard bargain. absolutely. If they


want free Jewish and for sttdents and free prescriptions, things we


can't have in England, let them pay for it themselves. `` free Jewish.


When they take a hardline? we were one of the major paymasters for the


EU. As far as the UK is concerned, we massive net contributors to the


EU, it will be far better off if we left. Time now for look likd. Here


is our round`up in 60 seconds. `` time for a look back. Animal rights


campaigners gathered in the West as a controversial call of badgers


resumed. For the next five weeks badgers will be shot as the


Government tries to control cases of TB in cattle. The revamp of


Swindon's oasis leisure Centre caused another political splash The


town's Conservative run council told the developer to meet new ddadlines


as work on the scheme slept yet again. Labour wants the deal


scrapped. A Bristol Ferry boat powered entirely by hydrogen was


labelled by councillors as wasteful vanity projects. Problems whth


fuelling the vessel mean it has not carried any passengers so f`r. Their


owners had to get it back on the water next year. And a formdr MP for


Newbury was selected as the Lib Dem candidate for through. David Rendell


is open to hold the seat for the Lib Dems when David Heath, five years


his junior, stands down next May. That was the week. Let's pick up on


that story of David Rendell. He is 65, as you. But Looe`macro H don't


look it or do I? Is there an age where it is a good time to start in


Parliament? You are as old or young as you feel. I am not ready to


retire. I am very active in politics at the moment, not being a lember of


Parliament, because, this is something I have been fighthng for


all my life. Where will you fight? That remains to be seen. We are in a


state of flux. Tellers. you will find out soon. Forest of De`n? I


must be sphinxlike. And, yot are hoping to get back? yes. Thdre are a


good mix of ages in Parliamdnt. But we need more than that age lix, what


about the balance between m`le and female? When you go to a selection


meeting, they really `` really looking for people in their 20s


They are looking for the best candidates. Sometimes, people get


elected when did not expect it, which happened in 1997 and ` certain


extent with the Conservativds in 2010. So you do get a youngdr group


coming in at that point. But if you are going to spend your whole life


as an MP, that is probably ` big thing. It's 15 years max, I'd say.


That is about it from the Wdst. From what is currently the western corner


of United Kingdom! Thank yot to my guests. We will


we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.


Can the No campaign still pull it off?


And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink


I'm joined now by John McTernan former adviser to Gordon Brown


and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP


and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor


And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.


No fighting has broken out either. Where


No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go


No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of


play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital


is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about


500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know


which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no


campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do


you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big


swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it


over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment


swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians


and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think


that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general


election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week


the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were


going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls


show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one


or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding


another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it


statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.


About a fifth of the electorate That will be a quarter of the


turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running


very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The


postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic


that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,


the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and


always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the


decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to


18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no


campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I


think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a


20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they


will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health


warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is


unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of


yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex


Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the


momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept


Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of


economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as


scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What


does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to


focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to


the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say


it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on


the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the


economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk


is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has


to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive


home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who


want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they


want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though


the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have


failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they


say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days


of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the


media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the


final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the


Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,


but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are


picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge


number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with


politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election if


I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of


questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier


with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all


of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as


a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown


during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex


Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he


continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under


his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health


service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe


Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as


quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people


as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.


Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish


Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him


the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He


crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a


certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent


himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who


was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red


paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the


Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both


been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than


looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't


Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?


What George and I are agreed on and you have to remember this question


of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other


things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,


Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of


Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an


independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed


miserably, absolutely miserably because they have given up


everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just


taken on the bank -- mantle of a left of centre party and are picking


up support. Gordon and the rest in my opinion, they represent the past.


The yes vote on the Yes campaign represents the future. What do you


say to that? There is nothing socialist about an SNP that wants to


cut business tax by 3% in the pan. There is nothing socialist about an


SNP destroying further education so they can give middle-class people


free education. The Labour Party is alive and kicking. You can see if it


is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to


use this word, but they are kind of privatised from the Scottish Labour


Party. They have rode their own fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump


because official Scottish Labour did not want him leading their campaign.


Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off the stage until it became so


critical that he had to be brought back. I agree with John, the SNP


talks left but acts right. That is before they get state powers. That


is what is exciting about the referendum, it's not about the SNP,


it's about the people deciding. What we have heard so far in the


referendum campaign is that there is a desperate yearning in the


electorate for real politics, purposeful politics and for the


people to be represented. It is probably to the eternal shame of


labour that they gave up that role and other people are now taking it


upon themselves. How would you assess the state of the Labour


Party? The problem is that it was demolished by the SNP in 2011 and


what they should have done since then and in other circumstances is


take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and


policies and watch out what they stood for. They've been unable to do


that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan


of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as


an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own


programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have


more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre


question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the


function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there


is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an SNP which attracts votes from the


left and that is the one for me Whether that is called the SNP or


something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are


going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally


flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English


dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum


campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour


of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip


from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this


unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets


second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the


same as us, they should have it and then there would be commonality so


we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies


in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear


that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge


implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly


after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge


applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that


there should be an English boys It would be a step too far for me to


agree with him -- English voice I appreciate I might have gone out on


a limb. He is the voice of Mars the Balkan from Mars. My own


constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things


being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about


us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the


John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet


to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in


Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon


Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has


absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,


hey, what are you talking about We have never been discussed with that?


We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get


the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you


think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented


election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working


class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our


side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --


technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it


is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am


predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.


Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will


edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in


a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the


passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,


53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with George. I will leave you


to argue about that later. Thank you for being with us on the special


Sunday politics from Edinburgh. That's all from us today


in Scotland. Don't forget the Daily Politics will


have continuing coverage of the referendum campaign all this


week on BBC2 at midday. On Thursday night Huw Edwards will


be in Glasgow and I will be in London to bring you live coverage


of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm on a historic night for Scotland


and the rest of the United Kingdom. And I'll be back next Sunday


when we're live from the Labour Unless, of course, the referendum


result is so tumultuous even the Remember if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics.


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