14/09/2014 Sunday Politics West


14/09/2014

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.

:00:37.:00:42.

Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out

:00:43.:00:45.

their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.

:00:46.:00:53.

They released a video late last night, showing a masked man

:00:54.:00:56.

beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.

:00:57.:01:02.

The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.

:01:03.:01:04.

Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.

:01:05.:01:06.

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.

:01:07.:01:09.

As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA

:01:10.:01:11.

President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder

:01:12.:01:15.

Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as

:01:16.:01:23.

he predicts a historic and substantial victory in

:01:24.:01:25.

As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,

:01:26.:01:33.

I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his

:01:34.:01:35.

And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown

:01:36.:01:43.

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask

:01:44.:01:45.

In the West. The doctor won't see it's enough to win over waverers.

:01:46.:01:58.

In the West. The doctor won't see you now. Surgeries teeter on the

:01:59.:01:59.

brink of closing step closer back to Parliament. Is

:02:00.:02:00.

it a lame-duck administration? Late last night, as most folk were

:02:01.:02:12.

preparing for bed, news broke that Islamic State extremists had carried

:02:13.:02:15.

out their threat to murder the The group released a video, similar

:02:16.:02:18.

to the ones in which two American journalists were decapitated,

:02:19.:02:23.

showing a masked man apparently beheading Mr Haines who was taken

:02:24.:02:24.

captive in Syria last year. The terrorist,

:02:25.:02:28.

who has a southern British accent, also threatened the life

:02:29.:02:31.

of a second hostage from the UK Mr Haines is

:02:32.:02:35.

the third Westerner to be killed His family have paid tribute to

:02:36.:02:37.

his humanitarian work; they say he David Cameron described the murder

:02:38.:02:42.

as an act of pure evil, and said his heart went out to Mr Haines

:02:43.:02:49.

family, who had shown extraordinary Mr Cameron went on to say,

:02:50.:02:52.

"We will do everything in our power to hunt down these murderers

:02:53.:03:01.

and ensure they face justice, Mr Haines was born in England

:03:02.:03:04.

and brought up in Scotland. Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond

:03:05.:03:08.

condemned the killing on the Marr Well, it's an act of unspeakable

:03:09.:03:25.

barbarism that we have seen. Obviously our condolences go to the

:03:26.:03:30.

family members of David Haynes who have borne this with such fortitude

:03:31.:03:32.

in recent months -- David Alex Salmond was also asked

:03:33.:03:39.

whether he supported military action Haines there is no reason to believe

:03:40.:03:48.

whatsoever that China or Russia or any country will see their will to

:03:49.:03:57.

deal with this barbarism. There is a will for effective, international,

:03:58.:04:00.

legal action but it must come in that fashion, and I would urge that

:04:01.:04:06.

to be a consideration to develop a collective response to what is a

:04:07.:04:08.

threat to humanity. Our security correspondent

:04:09.:04:10.

Gordon Corera joins me now Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra

:04:11.:04:22.

emergency meeting is meeting yet again. It meets a lot these days. I

:04:23.:04:28.

would suggest that the options facing this committee and Mr Cameron

:04:29.:04:32.

are pretty limited. That's right. I think they are extremely limited.

:04:33.:04:35.

They have been all along in these hostage situations. We know, for

:04:36.:04:40.

instance, that British government policy is not to pay ransom is to

:04:41.:04:44.

kidnappers. Other Europeans states are thought to have done so to get

:04:45.:04:49.

hostages released, and also not to make substantive policy concessions

:04:50.:04:53.

to the groups, so while there might be contact, there won't be a lot of

:04:54.:04:59.

options left. We know the US in the past has looked at rescue missions

:05:00.:05:07.

and in July on operation to free the hostages, landing at the oil

:05:08.:05:11.

facility in Syria but finding no one there. If you look at the options,

:05:12.:05:15.

they are not great. That is the difficult situation which Cobra will

:05:16.:05:22.

have been discussing the last hour. Does this make it more likely,

:05:23.:05:27.

because it might have the direction the government was going in any way,

:05:28.:05:31.

that we join with the Americans in perhaps the regional allies in air

:05:32.:05:37.

strikes against Islamic State, not just in Iraq, but also in Syria We

:05:38.:05:43.

heard from President Obama outlining his strategy against Islamic State

:05:44.:05:45.

last week when he talked about building a coalition, about

:05:46.:05:50.

authorising air strikes. And training troops. We are still

:05:51.:05:55.

waiting to hear what exact role the UK will play in that. We know it

:05:56.:06:02.

will play a role because it has been arming the fishmonger forces but the

:06:03.:06:10.

question is, will it actually conduct military strikes in Iraq --

:06:11.:06:15.

arming the passion are there. We have not got a clear answer from

:06:16.:06:27.

government and that is something where they are ours to discuss what

:06:28.:06:30.

was around the table. It's possible we might learn some more today as a

:06:31.:06:34.

result of the Cobra meeting, but I think the government will be wanting

:06:35.:06:38.

to not be seen to suddenly rushed to a completely different policy as a

:06:39.:06:41.

result of one incident, however terrible it is. Whether it hardens

:06:42.:06:46.

their reserve -- resolved to play more active role in the coalition,

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that's possible, but we have to wait see to get the detail. -- wait and

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see. What the whole country would like to see would be British and

:06:57.:07:02.

American special forces going in and getting these guys. I think that

:07:03.:07:05.

would unite the nation. But that is very difficult, isn't it? It is As

:07:06.:07:11.

you saw with a rescue mission a few months ago, the problem is getting

:07:12.:07:14.

actionable intelligence on the ground at a particular moment. The

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theory is that the group of kidnappers are moving the hostages

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may be even every or few days, so you need intelligence and quickly

:07:23.:07:25.

and then you need to be able to get the team onto the ground into that

:07:26.:07:30.

time frame. That is clearly a possibility and something they will

:07:31.:07:33.

be looking at, but it certainly challenging, particularly when you

:07:34.:07:37.

have a group like this operating within its own state, effectively,

:07:38.:07:41.

and knowing that other people are looking very hard for it and doing

:07:42.:07:48.

everything they can to hide. Gordon, thank you very much.

:07:49.:07:50.

Clegg dropped everything and headed to Scotland when a poll last Sunday

:07:51.:07:54.

gave the YES vote its first ever lead in this prolonged referendum

:07:55.:08:01.

If their reaction looked like panic, that's because it was.

:08:02.:08:04.

Until last weekend, though the polls had been narrowing,

:08:05.:08:06.

the consensus was still that NO would carry the day.

:08:07.:08:09.

The new consensus is that it's too close to call.

:08:10.:08:18.

If we look back at the beginning of the year, public opinion in Scotland

:08:19.:08:24.

was fairly settled. The no campaign had a commanding lead across the

:08:25.:08:28.

opinion polls, excluding the undecided voters. At one point, at

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the end of last year, an average of 63% backed the no campaign and only

:08:32.:08:39.

37% supported a yes vote. As we move into 2014 and up to this week, you

:08:40.:08:44.

can see a clear trend emerging as the lead for the no campaign gets

:08:45.:08:47.

narrower and narrower and the average of the most recent polls has

:08:48.:08:51.

the contest hanging in the balance. There was a poll a week ago that put

:08:52.:08:55.

the Yes campaign in the lead for the first time, 51% against 49%, but

:08:56.:09:00.

that lead was not reflected in the other polls last week. For polls

:09:01.:09:05.

were published last night, one by Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign

:09:06.:09:17.

-- Better Together campaign, and there was another that gave a one

:09:18.:09:20.

percentage point different. ICM have the yes campaign back in the lead at

:09:21.:09:27.

54% and the no campaign at 46%, but their sample size was 705 Scottish

:09:28.:09:33.

adults, smaller than usual. Another suggests that the contest remains on

:09:34.:09:41.

a knife edge with 49.4% against 50.6%. When fed into the poll of

:09:42.:09:46.

polls the figures average out with yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %.

:09:47.:09:53.

But some people think 18% are undecided, and it is how they vote

:09:54.:09:57.

gets -- when they get to the polling booths that could make all the

:09:58.:09:58.

difference. campaigner and Respect Party MP

:09:59.:10:00.

George Galloway. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big

:10:01.:10:09.

business, big oil, big banks, the Tories, the Orange order, all

:10:10.:10:13.

against Scottish independence. You sure you are on right side? Yes

:10:14.:10:18.

because the interests of working people are in staying together. This

:10:19.:10:21.

is a troubled moment in a marriage, a very long marriage, in which some

:10:22.:10:26.

good things and bad things have been achieved together. And there is no

:10:27.:10:30.

doubt that the crockery is being thrown around the house of the

:10:31.:10:34.

minute. But I believe that the underlying interests of working

:10:35.:10:38.

people are on working on the relationship rather than divorce. I

:10:39.:10:41.

have been divorced. It's a very messy, acrimonious, bitter affair

:10:42.:10:45.

and it's particularly bad for the children will stop that's why I am

:10:46.:10:49.

here. You talk about working people, and particularly Scottish working

:10:50.:10:54.

people, they seem to have concluded that the social democracy they want

:10:55.:10:58.

to create cannot now be done in a UK context. Why should they not have a

:10:59.:11:05.

shot of going it alone? Because the opposite will happen. Separation

:11:06.:11:08.

will cause a race to the bottom in taxation. Alex Salmond has already

:11:09.:11:12.

announced he will cut the taxes on companies, corporation tax, down to

:11:13.:11:16.

3% hello whatever it is in the rest of these islands. And business will

:11:17.:11:22.

only be attracted to come here, country of 5 million people on if

:11:23.:11:28.

there is low regulation, low public expenditure, low levels of taxation

:11:29.:11:34.

for them will stop you cannot have Scandinavian social democracy on

:11:35.:11:37.

Texan levels of taxation. The British government, as will be, the

:11:38.:11:41.

rest of the UK, they will race Alex Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it

:11:42.:11:46.

by three, they will cut it by four. And so on. So whether some people

:11:47.:11:53.

cannot see it clearly yet or not, the interests of the working people

:11:54.:11:56.

on both sides of the border would be gravely damaged by separation. Let's

:11:57.:12:00.

take the interest of the working people. As you know, as well as

:12:01.:12:04.

anyone, the coalition is in fermenting both a series of cuts and

:12:05.:12:08.

reforms in welfare, and labour, Westminster Labour, has only limited

:12:09.:12:13.

plans to reverse any of that. Surely if you want to preserve the welfare

:12:14.:12:17.

state as it is, independence is the way to do it. For the reasons I just

:12:18.:12:23.

explain, I don't believe that. But Ed Miliband will be along in a

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minute. He will be along in May The polls indicate... They say he is

:12:28.:12:33.

only four or 5%, that is the average. Like the referendum, the

:12:34.:12:38.

next general election could be nip and tuck. I don't, myself, think

:12:39.:12:43.

that the time of David Cameron as Prime Minister is for much longer. I

:12:44.:12:47.

think there will be a Labour government in the spring and the

:12:48.:12:51.

Labour government in London and a stronger Scottish Parliament, super

:12:52.:12:56.

Devo Max, that is now on the table. That is the best arrangement of

:12:57.:13:02.

people in the country. But the people of Scotland surely cannot

:13:03.:13:06.

base a decision on independence on your feeling that Labour might win

:13:07.:13:10.

the next general election. It is my feeling. When the Tories were beaten

:13:11.:13:14.

on the bedroom tax last week in the house, it was written all over the

:13:15.:13:19.

faces of the government side not only that they were headed for

:13:20.:13:24.

defeat, but probably a massive fishy -- Fisher. I think the race to the

:13:25.:13:33.

bottom that I have proper size will mean that the welfare state will be

:13:34.:13:39.

a distant memory quite soon. The cuts and the run on the Scottish

:13:40.:13:45.

economy here in Edinburgh, the financial services industry, that

:13:46.:13:49.

will be gravely damage. The Ministry of Defence jobs in Scotland

:13:50.:13:54.

decimated, probably ended, more or less. It will be a time of cuts and

:13:55.:14:02.

austerity, maybe super austerity in an independent Scotland. You

:14:03.:14:06.

mentioned defence. What about nuclear weapons? The Tories and

:14:07.:14:08.

Labour will keep them. You are against them. Surely the only way to

:14:09.:14:13.

be rid of them in Scotland is by independence. But you are not rid of

:14:14.:14:20.

them by telling them down the river. The danger would be the same --

:14:21.:14:23.

telling them down the river. The danger would be the same. Nuclear

:14:24.:14:30.

radiation does not respect Alex Salmond's national boundaries. They

:14:31.:14:34.

would be committed to immediately joining NATO, which is bristling

:14:35.:14:38.

with nuclear weapons and is what -- involved in wars across the

:14:39.:14:42.

Atlantic. So anyone looking for a peace option will have to elect a

:14:43.:14:46.

government in Britain as a whole that will get rid of nuclear weapons

:14:47.:14:50.

and get out of military entanglements. We are in one again

:14:51.:14:53.

now. I have been up the whole night, till 5am, dealing with some of the

:14:54.:15:01.

consequences and implications of the grave international matter that you

:15:02.:15:04.

opened the show with. David Haines and the fate of the hostage still in

:15:05.:15:11.

their hands. There are many other hostages as well. And there are many

:15:12.:15:14.

people dying who are neither British nor American. I have, somehow, been

:15:15.:15:21.

drawn into this matter. And it showed me, again, that the world is

:15:22.:15:26.

interdependent. It is absolutely riven with division and hatred, and

:15:27.:15:34.

this is the worst possible time to be opting out of the world to set up

:15:35.:15:39.

a small mini-state on the promises of Alex Salmond of social democracy

:15:40.:15:46.

funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for the sake of the next question,

:15:47.:15:49.

assume that everything you have told us is true. Why is your side

:15:50.:15:53.

squandering a 20 point lead? I will have a great deal to say

:15:54.:16:09.

about that, whatever the result This is very much a Scottish Labour

:16:10.:16:17.

project, is that not a condemnation of Scottish Labour? It is

:16:18.:16:23.

potentially on its deathbed. The country breaking up, the principal

:16:24.:16:40.

responsibility will be on them. And the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job

:16:41.:16:44.

that has been made of defending a 300-year-old relationship in this

:16:45.:16:52.

island by the Scottish Labour leadership is really terrible for me

:16:53.:16:57.

to behold, even though I'm no longer one of them. I don't know how they

:16:58.:17:01.

are going to get out of this deathbed. Do you agree that if this

:17:02.:17:07.

referendum is lost by your side it will be because traditional

:17:08.:17:10.

working-class Labour voters, particularly in the west of

:17:11.:17:14.

Scotland, have abundant Labour and decided to vote for independence?

:17:15.:17:20.

Without a doubt, the number of Labour voters intending to vote yes

:17:21.:17:25.

is disturbingly high. Even just months ago during the European

:17:26.:17:30.

Parliament elections, swathes of people who didn't vote SNP will be

:17:31.:17:36.

voting yes on Thursday. That is a grave squandering of a great legacy

:17:37.:17:41.

of Scottish Labour history, which history will decree as

:17:42.:17:48.

unforgivable. If Labour is to get out of its deathbed in Scotland it

:17:49.:17:54.

will have to become Labour again. Real Labour again. I am ready to

:17:55.:17:59.

help them with that. My goodness, they need help with it. I wonder if

:18:00.:18:08.

it isn't just a failure of Labour in Scotland. People all over Britain

:18:09.:18:12.

are increasingly fed up with the Westminster system, but it is only

:18:13.:18:16.

the Scots who currently have the chance to break free from it, so why

:18:17.:18:21.

shouldn't they? That is exactly right. They see a parliament of

:18:22.:18:27.

expenses cheats led by Lord snooty and the Bullingdon club elite,

:18:28.:18:33.

carrying through austerity for many but not for themselves and they are

:18:34.:18:38.

repulsed by it. They need change, but you can go backwards and call it

:18:39.:18:43.

change but it will be worse than the situation you have now. A lot of

:18:44.:18:49.

Scottish people don't buy that. It is a big gamble. If I were poised to

:18:50.:18:56.

put my family's life savings on the roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife

:18:57.:19:01.

would not be scaremongering if she pointed out the potential

:19:02.:19:05.

consequences if I'd lost. She would not be negative by telling me that

:19:06.:19:10.

is my children's money I am risking. If I jumped off this roof it would

:19:11.:19:14.

change my point of view, but it would be worse than the point of

:19:15.:19:19.

view I have now. There is another issue here because the Scots are

:19:20.:19:24.

being asked to gamble on the Westminster parties, which they are

:19:25.:19:30.

already suspicious of, of delivering home rule. Alistair Darling could

:19:31.:19:35.

not even tell me if Ed Balls had signed off on more income tax powers

:19:36.:19:40.

for Scotland, so that is a gamble for the Scots. I feel the British

:19:41.:19:44.

state has had such a shake out of all this that they would be beyond

:19:45.:19:50.

idiots, they would be insane now to risk all of this flaring up again

:19:51.:19:56.

because whatever happens, if we win on Thursday, it is going to be

:19:57.:20:02.

narrowly. It will be a severe fissure in Scotland. A great deal of

:20:03.:20:07.

unpleasantness that we are already aware of. That could turn but we're

:20:08.:20:14.

still. It would be dicing with death, playing with fire, to let

:20:15.:20:20.

Scottish people down after Thursday if we narrowly win. If you narrowly

:20:21.:20:25.

win, and if there are moves to this home rule Mr Brown has been talking

:20:26.:20:30.

about, England hasn't spoken yet on this. Whilst England would probably

:20:31.:20:38.

not want to stop -- stop Scotland getting this, they would say, what

:20:39.:20:43.

about us? It could delay the whole procedure. It is necessary, you are

:20:44.:20:51.

right. England should have home rule, and I screamed at Scottish

:20:52.:20:56.

Labour MPs going into the vote to introduce tuition fees in England. I

:20:57.:21:03.

told them this was a constitutional monstrosity, as well as a crime

:21:04.:21:07.

against young people in England It was risking everything. We are led

:21:08.:21:14.

by idiots. Our leaders are not James Bonds, they are Austin powers. We

:21:15.:21:22.

need to change the leadership, not rip up a 300-year-old marriage.

:21:23.:21:23.

Thank you. It's been one of the longest and

:21:24.:21:28.

hardest fought political campaigns in history, with Alex Salmond firing

:21:29.:21:31.

the starting gun on the referendum Adam's been stitching together

:21:32.:21:34.

the key moments of the campaign It is the other thing drawing people

:21:35.:21:49.

to the Scottish parliament, the new great tapestry of Scotland. It is

:21:50.:21:55.

the story of battles won and lost, Scottish moments, British moments,

:21:56.:22:01.

famous Scots, and not so famous Scots. There is even a panel

:22:02.:22:07.

dedicated to the rise of the SNP. Alex Salmond's majority in the

:22:08.:22:10.

elections in 2011 made the referendum inevitable. It became

:22:11.:22:15.

reality when he and David Cameron did a deal in Edinburgh one year

:22:16.:22:21.

later. The Scottish Government set out its plans for independence in

:22:22.:22:26.

this book, just a wish list to some, a sacred text to others. This White

:22:27.:22:34.

Paper is the most detailed improvements that any people have

:22:35.:22:39.

ever been offered in the world as a basis for becoming an independent

:22:40.:22:44.

country. The no campaign, called Better Together, united the Tories,

:22:45.:22:50.

Labour and the Lib Dems under the leadership of Alistair Darling. Then

:22:51.:22:54.

the Scottish people were bombarded with two years of photo

:22:55.:22:57.

opportunities and a lot of campaigning. For the no campaign,

:22:58.:23:03.

Jim Murphy went on tour but took a break when he was egged and his

:23:04.:23:07.

events were often hijacked by yes campaigners who were accused of

:23:08.:23:13.

being intimidating. In turn, they accused the no campaign of using

:23:14.:23:17.

scare tactics. Things heated up when the TV dinner -- during the TV

:23:18.:23:25.

debate. Fever pitch was reached one week ago when one poll suggested the

:23:26.:23:31.

yes campaign was in the lead for the first time. The three main

:23:32.:23:36.

Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to head north. I think people can feel

:23:37.:23:40.

it is like a general election, that you make a decision and five years

:23:41.:23:44.

later you can make another decision if you are fed up with the Tories,

:23:45.:23:48.

give them a kick... This is totally different. And Labour shelved not

:23:49.:23:58.

quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex Salmond took a helicopter instead.

:23:59.:24:02.

This is about the formation of the NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign

:24:03.:24:08.

is that changes to the NHS in Linden -- in England would lead to

:24:09.:24:19.

privatisation in Scotland. Alex Salmond's plan to share the pound

:24:20.:24:25.

was trashed by big names. There were other big question is, what would

:24:26.:24:29.

happen to military hardware like Trident based on the Clyde? Would an

:24:30.:24:34.

independent Scotland be able to join the EU? And how much oil was left

:24:35.:24:39.

underneath the North Sea? This panel is about famous Scots, we

:24:40.:24:44.

have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry, Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon

:24:45.:24:52.

Brown. These are big changes we are proposing to strengthen the Scottish

:24:53.:24:56.

parliament, but at the same time to stay as part of the UK. A regular on

:24:57.:25:01.

the campaign, he was front and centre when things got close,

:25:02.:25:05.

unveiling a timetable for more devolution. People wondered whether

:25:06.:25:10.

Ed Miliband was able to reach the parts of Scotland Labour leader

:25:11.:25:15.

should reach, and at Westminster some Tories pondered whether David

:25:16.:25:18.

Cameron could stay as prime minister if there was a yes vote. This

:25:19.:25:22.

tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a good place to get away from it all

:25:23.:25:28.

but it is crystallising voters' views. Look at what we have

:25:29.:25:39.

contributed to Great Britain, and I am British and I hope to be staying

:25:40.:25:42.

British. This is what people from Scotland have done, taken to the

:25:43.:25:45.

rest of the world in many cases and I think I am going to vote yes. I am

:25:46.:25:49.

so inspired by it. It has certainly inspired me to have a go at

:25:50.:25:54.

stitching. How long do you think it would take to do the whole thing? I

:25:55.:26:00.

would say to put aside maybe 30 hours of stitching. Maybe by the

:26:01.:26:04.

time I am done, we will know more about how the fabric of the nation

:26:05.:26:05.

might be changing. And I've been joined

:26:06.:26:09.

by yes campaigner and convenor of Scotland's Solidarity socialist

:26:10.:26:12.

party, Tommy Sheridan. An economy dependent on oil, the

:26:13.:26:24.

Queen as head of state, membership of the world 's premier nuclear

:26:25.:26:29.

alliance of capitalist nations is that the socialist Scotland you are

:26:30.:26:40.

fighting for? No, that is the SNP's prospectus and they are entitled to

:26:41.:26:44.

put forward their vision, but it is not mine or that of the majority of

:26:45.:26:49.

Scotland. We will find out in two years. On Thursday we are not voting

:26:50.:26:55.

for a political party, we are voting for our freedom as a country. That

:26:56.:27:01.

is why people are going to vote yes on Thursday. A lot of people are

:27:02.:27:04.

voting for what you call freedom because they think it will be more

:27:05.:27:11.

Scotland. You have already got free prescriptions, no tuition fees, free

:27:12.:27:15.

care for the elderly. You might not in future have that if public

:27:16.:27:19.

spending is overdependent on the price of oil, over which you have no

:27:20.:27:24.

control. We don't have to worry about one single resource, we

:27:25.:27:28.

already have 20% of the fishing stock in Europe. We already have 25%

:27:29.:27:35.

of the wind, wave and solar power generation. We, as an independent

:27:36.:27:47.

country, have huge resources, natural resources but also people

:27:48.:27:51.

resources. We have five first-class universities, food and beverages

:27:52.:27:56.

industry which is the envy of the world. We have the ability to

:27:57.:28:00.

produce the resources on the revenues that won't just maintain

:28:01.:28:04.

the health service and education but it will develop health and

:28:05.:28:07.

education. I don't want to stand still, I want to redistribute

:28:08.:28:13.

wealth. But all of the projections of public spending for an

:28:14.:28:20.

independent Scotland show that to keep spending at the current level

:28:21.:28:24.

you need a strong price of oil and you are dependent on this commodity

:28:25.:28:29.

which goes up and down and sideways. That is a gamble. I have got to

:28:30.:28:34.

laugh because I have been told the most pessimistic is that in 40 years

:28:35.:28:39.

the oil is running out, panic stations! If you were told by the

:28:40.:28:45.

BBC you could only guarantee employment for the next 40 years you

:28:46.:28:50.

would be over the moon. I am talking about in the next five. You need 50%

:28:51.:28:57.

of your revenues to come from oil to continue spending and that is not a

:28:58.:29:02.

guarantee. Of course it is, the minimum survival of the oil is 0

:29:03.:29:08.

years. Please get your viewers to go onto the Internet and look at the

:29:09.:29:23.

website called oilandgas.com. The West Coast has 100 years of oil to

:29:24.:29:30.

be extracted. It hasn't been done because in 1981 Michael Heseltine

:29:31.:29:33.

said we cannot extract the oil because we have Trident going up and

:29:34.:29:40.

down there. Let's get rid of Trident and extract the oil. You are a trot

:29:41.:29:50.

right, why have you failed to learn his famous dictum, socialism in one

:29:51.:29:55.

country is impossible. Revolutions and change are not just single

:29:56.:30:00.

event. What will happen here on Thursday is a democratic revolution.

:30:01.:30:05.

The people are fed up of being patronised and lied to by this mob

:30:06.:30:10.

in Westminster who have used and abused us for far too long. The

:30:11.:30:16.

smaller people now have a voice What about socialism in one

:30:17.:30:19.

country? Mr Trotsky warned you against that. The no campaign

:30:20.:30:29.

represents the past. The yes campaign represents the future. That

:30:30.:30:33.

is the truth of the matter. What we are going to do in an independent

:30:34.:30:38.

Scotland is tackle inequality and a scourge of low pay. If we vote no on

:30:39.:30:46.

Thursday, there will be more low pay on Friday, more poverty and food

:30:47.:30:51.

banks on Friday. I'm not going to be lectured by these big banks, you

:30:52.:30:58.

vote less -- yes and we will leave the country! The food banks will be

:30:59.:31:06.

the ones closing. If you got your way, for the type of Scotland you

:31:07.:31:11.

would like to see, state control of business, nationalisation of the

:31:12.:31:16.

Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be clogged with people

:31:17.:31:24.

Yes, hoping to come into Scotland, because in their hearts, the

:31:25.:31:31.

Scottish people know that England want to see the people having the

:31:32.:31:37.

bottle. The working class people in Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of

:31:38.:31:39.

London, they are saying good on the jocks that are taking on big

:31:40.:31:43.

business. When we are independent and investing in social housing the

:31:44.:31:47.

people of England will say, we can do that as well, and they will

:31:48.:31:52.

rediscover the radical tradition. In wanting to build socialism in one

:31:53.:31:56.

country, it really means you are fighting for the few, rather than

:31:57.:31:59.

the many. You are bailing out of the socialist Battle for Britain. You

:32:00.:32:03.

think it will be easier to make it work. Think globally, act locally

:32:04.:32:12.

and we will build socialism in Scotland but I wanted across the

:32:13.:32:15.

world. I won my brothers and sisters in England and Wales to be

:32:16.:32:20.

encouraged by what we do so they can reject the Westminster consensus as

:32:21.:32:24.

well -- I want. We had the three Stooges coming up to London, three

:32:25.:32:28.

millionaires united on one thing, austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed

:32:29.:32:32.

Miliband wins the next election he said he would stick to the story

:32:33.:32:35.

spending cuts. Why vote for Ed Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to

:32:36.:32:41.

run a bath, not a country. Let's see if this is realistic, this great

:32:42.:32:45.

socialist vision. At the last Scottish election, the Socialist

:32:46.:32:49.

party got 8000 votes. The Conservatives got 30 times more

:32:50.:32:55.

votes. Where is the appetite in Scotland for your Marxist ideology

:32:56.:32:59.

question we might not win it. But do you know what, see in two years

:33:00.:33:03.

time. See when we have the Scottish general election. You won't -- you

:33:04.:33:18.

are saying you might win and you went to the Holyrood election and

:33:19.:33:23.

got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won a democratic election and then won

:33:24.:33:26.

the 2011 election and you know why they won? Because they picked up the

:33:27.:33:30.

clothes that the Labour Party has thrown away. They picked up the

:33:31.:33:34.

close of social democracy and protecting the health service was --

:33:35.:33:42.

service. There are people in the SNP who believe in public ownership and

:33:43.:33:47.

people in the SNP who believe in the NHS should be written into a

:33:48.:33:49.

constitution as never for sale people in the the SNP that think the

:33:50.:33:54.

Royal mail should return to public ownership. That is there in black

:33:55.:33:58.

and white. Do you agree with George Galloway that this is potentially a

:33:59.:34:02.

crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish Labour is finished. They are

:34:03.:34:07.

absolutely finished. George is right in that. Scottish Labour is

:34:08.:34:12.

finished. The irony of ironies is, Labour in Scotland has more chance

:34:13.:34:14.

of recovery in an independent Scotland that they have in a no

:34:15.:34:20.

vote. Labour in Scotland in an independent country will have to

:34:21.:34:24.

rediscover the traditions of Keir Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon,

:34:25.:34:28.

because right now, they are to the right of the SNP as a political

:34:29.:34:36.

party. I understand the socialist vision, but it is where the appetite

:34:37.:34:40.

is. And you look at the independence people in Scotland. One of your

:34:41.:34:46.

colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who fought against the appeal -- repeal

:34:47.:34:52.

of homosexual rights in Scotland. Another of your allies would seem to

:34:53.:34:55.

be Rupert Murdoch, the man who engineered your downfall. You say he

:34:56.:35:02.

engineered your downfall, but I m still here and his newspaper has

:35:03.:35:07.

closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch, Brian Souter, or any other

:35:08.:35:11.

millionaire supporting independence, I couldn't care less. This boat on

:35:12.:35:15.

Thursday is not about millionaires, it is about the millions. -- this

:35:16.:35:21.

vote. We will not be abused any young -- longer. Would you rather

:35:22.:35:27.

not have their support? I couldn't care about the support. You know who

:35:28.:35:31.

is supporting the union. It is the unions of the big businesses, the

:35:32.:35:35.

BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who support it. You are giving me a

:35:36.:35:43.

stray that has wandered into the campaign and are you seriously going

:35:44.:35:46.

to argue with me that the establishment isn't united to try

:35:47.:35:50.

and save the union? That is what they are trying to be. The BBC, you

:35:51.:35:54.

have been a disgrace in your coverage of the campaign. Not you

:35:55.:35:58.

personally. You don't have editorial control. The BBC coverage,

:35:59.:36:03.

generally, has been a disgrace and the people. Oil and gas, go and look

:36:04.:36:08.

at that, why is that not feature. Why is the idea of 100 years of oil

:36:09.:36:12.

not featured in the campaign. Because the BBC does not want to see

:36:13.:36:16.

it. Are you getting in your excuses if you lose? You better be kidding.

:36:17.:36:21.

Is this the face of somebody looking to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40.

:36:22.:36:28.

Absolutely. There is a momentum that you guys are not seeing on the

:36:29.:36:32.

working-class housing estates. Working class people are fed up

:36:33.:36:36.

being taken for granted fed up with the lives of people dragging us into

:36:37.:36:45.

tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor. They will have power on Thursday,

:36:46.:36:48.

and they will use it and vote for freedom. Are you happy with the way

:36:49.:36:53.

the BBC has treated you today? So far, yes. I have still not been

:36:54.:36:57.

offered a Coffey, but that might happen. That is an obvious example

:36:58.:37:02.

of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to you later with George Galloway.

:37:03.:37:21.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics in the West.

:37:22.:37:24.

We are back, it's nice to be with you ag`in.

:37:25.:37:26.

They warn surgeries may havd to close as there aren?t enough GPs

:37:27.:37:32.

We will be examining the crisis that is causing doctors

:37:33.:37:37.

to leave the profession thex work so hard to join.

:37:38.:37:45.

And on our consulting room couch this Sunday, both of them hoping to

:37:46.:37:54.

pull a sickie, they are the former Labour MP Anne Snelgrove and deputy

:37:55.:37:57.

This time next week we may not even have a United Kingdom,

:37:58.:38:01.

I was born British and I want to remain British,

:38:02.:38:08.

I do hope that Scotland stays with us.

:38:09.:38:15.

Any Scots with a vote out there ` vote for the union.

:38:16.:38:19.

Neil, you must be able to understand that people want to leave the EU,

:38:20.:38:23.

I could understand that if what was on offer was real independence, but

:38:24.:38:30.

they want have their economhc policy effectively decided by the Bank of

:38:31.:38:37.

England and everything else decided by their masters in Brussels.

:38:38.:38:39.

That doesn?t seem like real independence.

:38:40.:38:41.

But what will happen if Scotland vote No

:38:42.:38:43.

and all those extra powers `re given to the devolved parliament there?

:38:44.:38:46.

There will then be growing demand for something in England

:38:47.:38:49.

which stops Scottish MPs voting on purely English issues.

:38:50.:38:53.

Gordon Brown is up there, hd seems to think he?s Prime Minister again.

:38:54.:38:59.

He is making huge offers to the Scots!

:39:00.:39:03.

I think those offers have bden worked out on a cross`party basis,

:39:04.:39:06.

I don?t think it?s just Gordon going off on his own in doing that.

:39:07.:39:09.

I'm glad to see that everybody is pulling the stops out.

:39:10.:39:12.

I was glad to see David Camdron up there this week,

:39:13.:39:14.

I think the Prime Minister of the Britain and should bd there,

:39:15.:39:17.

We want to send a message to the Scots cross`party,

:39:18.:39:22.

OK we will talk more about that later on.

:39:23.:39:27.

First, it seems that one of the pillars of the community, the local

:39:28.:39:30.

Doctors say morale is at an all`time low as they struggle

:39:31.:39:37.

Older GPs are retiring earlx, while younger doctors are t`king

:39:38.:39:40.

It has caused a shortage of staff which could see surgeries close

:39:41.:40:15.

I found that the conflicting demands were greater than I could ddal with.

:40:16.:40:20.

That the pressure was such that I had a feeling of panic most days. I

:40:21.:40:27.

wondered, can I get through all the demands and conflicting dem`nds of

:40:28.:40:31.

running the business? Of seding the patients, of dealing with the

:40:32.:40:38.

admin, the results, the prescriptions, the referrals. Screen

:40:39.:40:43.

`` strain is beginning to show. In June, two doctors left this Bristol

:40:44.:40:47.

surgery blaming work pressures. Now this practices shut the two days

:40:48.:40:50.

away because they cannot find the stuff to keep it open. People living

:40:51.:40:56.

nearby grade. I think it will be harder to get an appointment. You're

:40:57.:41:01.

definitely going to wait longer And in convenience of patients having to

:41:02.:41:05.

get onto buses, that's if they can get out of the house! In a

:41:06.:41:10.

statement, the Government s`id: Just as GPs warning of a, political

:41:11.:41:40.

parties are permitting to m`ke it easier to see your doctor. The Lib

:41:41.:41:44.

Dems say they want to see what out of hours appointments, UKIP want to

:41:45.:41:47.

see GPs open in the evenings if there is the demand. The

:41:48.:41:51.

Conservatives say they want GPs open at evenings and weekends. L`bour,

:41:52.:41:56.

say if Alexa, they will be `ble to see your GP within 48 hours

:41:57.:42:00.

guaranteed. It all leaves doctors asking where on earth the stuff will

:42:01.:42:04.

come from. I actually think politicians promises vanish in the

:42:05.:42:08.

dawn. There is no point in promising unlimited rice pudding if you can't

:42:09.:42:13.

harvest the rice. And if `` the rice of general practice is very scarce

:42:14.:42:16.

on the ground, the paddy fidlds are empty, and most of the rice because

:42:17.:42:21.

of emigrated. We shouldn't `nd a metaphor to four, but, therd is a

:42:22.:42:26.

serious problem and it starts from a demographic where people of my

:42:27.:42:30.

generation are looking for the exit door in their droves. I've never

:42:31.:42:34.

known so many of my colleagtes retiring early. Because the pressure

:42:35.:42:40.

of the work is just too much,. Using that specialise in part with

:42:41.:42:43.

patients. This member of thd health Select Committee provoked a storm

:42:44.:42:46.

when she called for people to be charged if they missed appohntments.

:42:47.:42:51.

People do not how much their appointment costs. I think simple

:42:52.:42:54.

things like understanding when you see a GP, it is not free, it costs

:42:55.:42:59.

about 30 quid. Understanding that, people take their own decishons as

:43:00.:43:03.

to whether they think they need to go and see a GP for that money.

:43:04.:43:07.

People are sensible generally, and if we understand what we cost the

:43:08.:43:11.

state we will generally takd much more sensible decisions. Whhle

:43:12.:43:15.

politicians argue, it is believed several other surgeries in the West

:43:16.:43:18.

will soon be pulling down their shutters as doctors cry out for a

:43:19.:43:23.

cure to their ills. We asked to speak to the Government and NHS

:43:24.:43:27.

England about this but both turned down now offer, we couldn't get an

:43:28.:43:31.

appointment. We can now spe`k to Doctor Holly Hardy who handdd in her

:43:32.:43:37.

notice earlier this year. Doctor Hardy also oversees the trahning of

:43:38.:43:42.

junior doctors in the city. Welcome. Doctors in Britain are the

:43:43.:43:45.

second`highest paid in the world, the highest`paid in Europe. You d

:43:46.:43:48.

expect to bit of pressure for that sort money? has always been

:43:49.:43:55.

pressure, but the point is, every system reaches its limit and because

:43:56.:43:58.

there is so much more work coming out of secondary care, from

:43:59.:44:02.

hospitals into primary care, general practice, for GPs and nurses, and

:44:03.:44:09.

patients, problems are getthng more complex and patients are living

:44:10.:44:13.

longer. The workload has gone up, and I think the appointments have

:44:14.:44:16.

more than doubled in quite ` short time. Is a tough job. But on the

:44:17.:44:22.

other side, because doctors are paid so much, so the partners will be

:44:23.:44:26.

well over 100,000, often now might other doctors and so they c`n afford

:44:27.:44:30.

to take early retirement. Why wouldn't you? I think the ddcision

:44:31.:44:35.

to take early retirement is a personal decision. If you c`n afford

:44:36.:44:41.

it? It is not just about th`t, it is about being able to sustain yourself

:44:42.:44:44.

in the role and if we are fhnding lots of GPs leaving in their 50s,

:44:45.:44:48.

that says something about the workload because most would carry on

:44:49.:44:51.

because they love their jobs, if they could. I don't think any doctor

:44:52.:44:56.

would leave. If we are so short of doctors, I don't understand why

:44:57.:44:59.

youngsters leaving school whth three straight A 's in good subject, says

:45:00.:45:04.

medical school? With three straight says they would get in. It hs

:45:05.:45:09.

compared to did to get in. Lots have been turned away. We don not

:45:10.:45:13.

training of doctors are we? The many people wants to be doctors? There is

:45:14.:45:19.

an issue of supply. So, how may be people to medical school and how

:45:20.:45:22.

many of us are trained to bd GPs, but the other issue is how lany were

:45:23.:45:26.

losing and the balance is wrong and there is about a ten year lhke. If

:45:27.:45:31.

we try up and rectify what hs happening now... The clip w`s saying

:45:32.:45:36.

it is not a popular choice for doctors, but there is a lot of

:45:37.:45:40.

demand for people to become medics? There is, but general practhce is

:45:41.:45:44.

not a pillar at the moment for the reasons you see. The media portrayal

:45:45.:45:48.

is that it is difficult job and people are leaving and it is an

:45:49.:45:53.

unpleasant job. I would say, I'm a GP, I'm still a GP despite ly

:45:54.:45:56.

problems, and other doctors are choosing to go into hospital

:45:57.:46:01.

medicine and win it encourage that, we need at least 50% of thel to

:46:02.:46:06.

become GPs are not stay in hospital. It was a Labour Government that

:46:07.:46:10.

brought in this country which gave GPs a good pay deal. It also

:46:11.:46:14.

relieved them of out of hours work. Although not a big mistake? It has

:46:15.:46:20.

not. We were able to fulfil the 48`hour pledge up until 2010. It was

:46:21.:46:24.

the Coalition Government th`t scrapped it. It is the ?1.3 billion

:46:25.:46:28.

reorganisation we have seen of the NHS which has put a huge amount of

:46:29.:46:34.

work on to GPs and GP practhces I do reject that. For me, it hs very

:46:35.:46:42.

worrying that young doctors, newly trained doctors are not going into

:46:43.:46:50.

GP surgery to basics like that. Because we do need to attract the

:46:51.:46:55.

young and the bright. Be ond no pulses to address that? we have We

:46:56.:47:01.

will make sure that the burdaucracy that this Government said it

:47:02.:47:04.

wouldn't do but has actuallx brought, and the pressure on GPs.

:47:05.:47:12.

The pressure is ameliorated in some way. We must make sure that GPs have

:47:13.:47:17.

the space to do their job which is not what is happening. Neil, I have

:47:18.:47:22.

been looking at the UKIP website are trying find out your health policy.

:47:23.:47:30.

Six words: Open GPs surgerids in the evening. You want tax cuts `s well?

:47:31.:47:35.

we will be announcing our policies at Doncaster Conference in ` few

:47:36.:47:40.

weeks. Dalby revealed at th`t point. But I think most people will find it

:47:41.:47:44.

difficult to sympathise with the argument that is being put forward,

:47:45.:47:47.

that people are being paid on average, more than 100,000 ` year.

:47:48.:47:52.

Or how overworked they are just can't cope. Most people strdss in

:47:53.:47:58.

their lives and I do not sed why doctors should be any more stressed

:47:59.:48:02.

than anybody else. My wife's father was a GP in the 1940s through to the

:48:03.:48:06.

1960s, and, in those days, he was on call 24 hours a day. If you went to

:48:07.:48:11.

the cinema and something pops up on the screen same all the doctor

:48:12.:48:14.

please go to the reception `nd a beer foam core from a patient. you

:48:15.:48:20.

should come as bad a day with us in general practice as bad a d`y with

:48:21.:48:23.

us in general practice and see what it is like! I have been a GP for

:48:24.:48:29.

over 20 years and I concur with what you are saying. We used to do on

:48:30.:48:33.

call, and now the out of hotrs Rangers are different. But different

:48:34.:48:36.

pressures, so many things all at once. One GP said he thought

:48:37.:48:45.

panicking `` panicky everyd`y. Do they that is happening across the

:48:46.:48:51.

West Country? I think it is a national problem. Especiallx for

:48:52.:48:56.

young doctors, right at the start of their careers. It is very worrying.

:48:57.:49:00.

Writing the big problem is the NHS is so vast, it consumes so

:49:01.:49:06.

Government spending, so how do you match demand to the resourcds? Are

:49:07.:49:17.

you committed to it? Yes, wd are. Charging people to see their doctor

:49:18.:49:22.

is what Charlotte Leslie was advocating. I think that is a

:49:23.:49:25.

disaster. We have to leave ht there. Thank you. Now back to the Scottish

:49:26.:49:32.

referendum. Who knows which way the vote will go, but if they ddcide to

:49:33.:49:37.

stay as part of the UK, thex will get more powers. But where does that

:49:38.:49:40.

leave us English? The south`west is about the same size as Scotland with

:49:41.:49:43.

the same amount of people. Do we need more powers to? Lots of passion

:49:44.:49:55.

and promises. We are proposhng the Scottish parliament should have

:49:56.:49:59.

increased powers. In welfard, in social and economic policy, and in

:50:00.:50:05.

finance. Gordon Brown have the backing of Westminster's three

:50:06.:50:11.

biggest parties. The more power for Holyrood would increase what people

:50:12.:50:14.

say is a democratic deficit south of the border in Westminster and in the

:50:15.:50:17.

West Country. English polithcians would have even less that the less

:50:18.:50:22.

sale over what happens in Scotland while Scottish MPs will still vote

:50:23.:50:25.

on our Parliament. Experts reckon there will be demands for change,

:50:26.:50:29.

not just our parliament, but even for English regional devolution no

:50:30.:50:36.

vote would mean more power, then people might actually get the link

:50:37.:50:43.

of saying Scottish... We have got to get a bit more power from

:50:44.:50:47.

Westminster, Wales, Northern Ireland, some of the conurb`tions.

:50:48.:50:52.

is easy to be cynical about attitude of voters to local governments. Only

:50:53.:50:56.

a third turn out to vote in council elections, after all. The l`st

:50:57.:51:04.

attempt to do this fell flat. The talk will the good things that could

:51:05.:51:07.

be showered on Scotland does stoke up some passion. There is no reason

:51:08.:51:16.

at all they should get anything better than others. I do not see why

:51:17.:51:24.

they should have additional powers. the next step will be Yorkshire

:51:25.:51:29.

wanting independence! That the zoom the south`west will do the same It

:51:30.:51:33.

could be the start of quite a lot of aggro. They want more, they want

:51:34.:51:40.

more, they want more. And it gets more if they vote no. It is not

:51:41.:51:54.

fair. Could idea of elected regional as emblems be revived? Efforts by

:51:55.:51:58.

the last Government were mocked by critics and rejected in a rdferendum

:51:59.:52:02.

in the north`east of England. we tried this in the other 2000s and it

:52:03.:52:05.

didn't work, there are many reasons why, one of them was that it was not

:52:06.:52:11.

really a bottom`up process, it was forced by new Labour. The powers

:52:12.:52:15.

given at that time were fairly weak and some would argue, quite pathetic

:52:16.:52:21.

inability of two the actual local government structures. one notable

:52:22.:52:25.

south`west resident who is passionate about giving powdr to the

:52:26.:52:31.

people is Billy Bragg. why hsn't it a good thing for England if it is

:52:32.:52:35.

good for Scotland? To engagd young people, you must make them feel they

:52:36.:52:39.

are heard. Better devolution will begin to re`engage that process and

:52:40.:52:44.

we could start to get peopld to feel that their voice is heard. Hf there

:52:45.:52:47.

were regional assemblies, wd would be able to decide perhaps, with the

:52:48.:52:52.

north`east and north`west on important issues like agrictlture,

:52:53.:52:55.

fisheries and care. And if hn the south`west we have the same powers

:52:56.:53:00.

as Holyrood, we would have things like student fees, prescriptions.

:53:01.:53:11.

There was much talk about ddvolved powers. The debate over how Scotland

:53:12.:53:15.

is ruled is nearly over. Thd debate over how England will be run is just

:53:16.:53:22.

beginning. Let's pick up on some of those issues. Neil, you're like Alex

:53:23.:53:27.

Salmond without the kilt on June? The same arguments about le`ving the

:53:28.:53:34.

EU as him about leaving the UK. Quite the opposite. He's not

:53:35.:53:37.

offering real independence. He is prepared to allow the Bank of

:53:38.:53:49.

England... We want Britain to be an independent, self`governing country

:53:50.:53:53.

again. I understand why the Scots might think that if they ard

:53:54.:53:55.

nationalists. But what is bding offered to the Scottish people is a

:53:56.:53:59.

bogus choice and bogus independence. They want independence if they vote

:54:00.:54:04.

yes. But they will be leaving the EU as far as we understand if they vote

:54:05.:54:07.

yes and they will have to ndgotiate to get back in? If it meant the rest

:54:08.:54:12.

of the UK left automaticallx I would be voting for Scottish

:54:13.:54:15.

independence! But I do not think that is the case. There is no

:54:16.:54:18.

question that Scotland will remain in the EU. Will they have to adopt

:54:19.:54:26.

the Euro if they do? Labour tried regional assemblies, trying to get

:54:27.:54:28.

the minute the north`east and they were given a great big fat

:54:29.:54:34.

raspberry. Nobody wanted thdm. and there is no clamour in the

:54:35.:54:38.

south`west either. We need to look at a different system. We h`ve to

:54:39.:54:43.

wait on the outcome of next week's referendum. What I would like to see

:54:44.:54:46.

is something we have had a look at with the Adonis report, is groups of

:54:47.:54:51.

local authorities coming together and working in the weather greater

:54:52.:54:56.

Manchester authorities work. So they are looking at a specific area. That

:54:57.:55:00.

would work for Cornwall, but it would also work. Wind and, because

:55:01.:55:04.

we are different, though in the same region. I am looking at a mtch

:55:05.:55:11.

looser federation of areas, pubs of towns and country areas, whhch have

:55:12.:55:17.

things in common. Would that work? Some sort of federal system? No I

:55:18.:55:25.

don't think so. Does Cornwall feel much affinity with Gloucestdrshire

:55:26.:55:30.

or Dorset? It is merely a unit of Government and people do not have an

:55:31.:55:34.

affinity with it. Scotland `nd Wales are nations, that is differdnt.

:55:35.:55:38.

Inevitably's inevitably, th`t creates different emotional

:55:39.:55:42.

pressures, there is no publhc demand for regional assemblies in Dngland

:55:43.:55:44.

because people don't feel any connection with other regions. When

:55:45.:55:48.

you see National is in Scotland comedy like a? Yes, but I sde it in

:55:49.:55:55.

a UK context. I was raising Wales, and I can understand `` I w`s raised

:55:56.:56:01.

in Wales. I can understand why people feel more affinity whth it

:56:02.:56:07.

than the UK. I don't share that affinity, but... If Scotland goes,

:56:08.:56:11.

how tough the youth in the settlement deal should be? we need

:56:12.:56:19.

to look at that if or when ht happens. I do not want to sde us

:56:20.:56:24.

getting into that kind of argument. It is clear as a bell, that we will

:56:25.:56:29.

suffer, financially, as the Scots will suffer financially. , Neil

:56:30.:56:34.

Nigel Farage we say we should drive a hard bargain. absolutely. If they

:56:35.:56:39.

want free Jewish and for sttdents and free prescriptions, things we

:56:40.:56:43.

can't have in England, let them pay for it themselves. `` free Jewish.

:56:44.:56:55.

When they take a hardline? we were one of the major paymasters for the

:56:56.:57:07.

EU. As far as the UK is concerned, we massive net contributors to the

:57:08.:57:11.

EU, it will be far better off if we left. Time now for look likd. Here

:57:12.:57:20.

is our round`up in 60 seconds. `` time for a look back. Animal rights

:57:21.:57:26.

campaigners gathered in the West as a controversial call of badgers

:57:27.:57:30.

resumed. For the next five weeks badgers will be shot as the

:57:31.:57:33.

Government tries to control cases of TB in cattle. The revamp of

:57:34.:57:40.

Swindon's oasis leisure Centre caused another political splash The

:57:41.:57:44.

town's Conservative run council told the developer to meet new ddadlines

:57:45.:57:49.

as work on the scheme slept yet again. Labour wants the deal

:57:50.:57:53.

scrapped. A Bristol Ferry boat powered entirely by hydrogen was

:57:54.:57:57.

labelled by councillors as wasteful vanity projects. Problems whth

:57:58.:58:03.

fuelling the vessel mean it has not carried any passengers so f`r. Their

:58:04.:58:06.

owners had to get it back on the water next year. And a formdr MP for

:58:07.:58:14.

Newbury was selected as the Lib Dem candidate for through. David Rendell

:58:15.:58:18.

is open to hold the seat for the Lib Dems when David Heath, five years

:58:19.:58:27.

his junior, stands down next May. That was the week. Let's pick up on

:58:28.:58:33.

that story of David Rendell. He is 65, as you. But Looe`macro H don't

:58:34.:58:41.

look it or do I? Is there an age where it is a good time to start in

:58:42.:58:47.

Parliament? You are as old or young as you feel. I am not ready to

:58:48.:58:52.

retire. I am very active in politics at the moment, not being a lember of

:58:53.:58:56.

Parliament, because, this is something I have been fighthng for

:58:57.:59:01.

all my life. Where will you fight? That remains to be seen. We are in a

:59:02.:59:12.

state of flux. Tellers. you will find out soon. Forest of De`n? I

:59:13.:59:20.

must be sphinxlike. And, yot are hoping to get back? yes. Thdre are a

:59:21.:59:27.

good mix of ages in Parliamdnt. But we need more than that age lix, what

:59:28.:59:32.

about the balance between m`le and female? When you go to a selection

:59:33.:59:37.

meeting, they really `` really looking for people in their 20s

:59:38.:59:41.

They are looking for the best candidates. Sometimes, people get

:59:42.:59:45.

elected when did not expect it, which happened in 1997 and ` certain

:59:46.:59:52.

extent with the Conservativds in 2010. So you do get a youngdr group

:59:53.:59:56.

coming in at that point. But if you are going to spend your whole life

:59:57.:00:02.

as an MP, that is probably ` big thing. It's 15 years max, I'd say.

:00:03.:00:10.

That is about it from the Wdst. From what is currently the western corner

:00:11.:00:13.

of United Kingdom! Thank yot to my guests. We will

:00:14.:00:15.

we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.

:00:16.:00:23.

Can the No campaign still pull it off?

:00:24.:00:28.

And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink

:00:29.:00:31.

I'm joined now by John McTernan former adviser to Gordon Brown

:00:32.:00:48.

and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP

:00:49.:00:51.

and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor

:00:52.:00:54.

And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.

:00:55.:01:00.

No fighting has broken out either. Where

:01:01.:01:08.

No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go

:01:09.:01:08.

No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of

:01:09.:01:11.

play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital

:01:12.:01:19.

is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about

:01:20.:01:24.

500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know

:01:25.:01:27.

which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no

:01:28.:01:33.

campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do

:01:34.:01:38.

you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big

:01:39.:01:42.

swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it

:01:43.:01:51.

over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment

:01:52.:01:55.

swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians

:01:56.:02:00.

and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think

:02:01.:02:05.

that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general

:02:06.:02:09.

election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week

:02:10.:02:14.

the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were

:02:15.:02:18.

going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls

:02:19.:02:21.

show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one

:02:22.:02:27.

or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding

:02:28.:02:33.

another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it

:02:34.:02:36.

statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.

:02:37.:02:41.

About a fifth of the electorate That will be a quarter of the

:02:42.:02:44.

turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running

:02:45.:02:48.

very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The

:02:49.:02:54.

postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic

:02:55.:02:57.

that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,

:02:58.:03:03.

the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and

:03:04.:03:07.

always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the

:03:08.:03:13.

decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to

:03:14.:03:17.

18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no

:03:18.:03:21.

campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I

:03:22.:03:27.

think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a

:03:28.:03:35.

20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they

:03:36.:03:40.

will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health

:03:41.:03:45.

warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is

:03:46.:03:47.

unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of

:03:48.:03:52.

yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex

:03:53.:03:58.

Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the

:03:59.:04:02.

momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept

:04:03.:04:09.

Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of

:04:10.:04:12.

economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as

:04:13.:04:15.

scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What

:04:16.:04:20.

does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to

:04:21.:04:25.

focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to

:04:26.:04:30.

the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say

:04:31.:04:33.

it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on

:04:34.:04:38.

the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the

:04:39.:04:41.

economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk

:04:42.:04:46.

is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has

:04:47.:04:50.

to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive

:04:51.:04:54.

home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who

:04:55.:04:58.

want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they

:04:59.:05:01.

want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though

:05:02.:05:07.

the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have

:05:08.:05:10.

failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they

:05:11.:05:13.

say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days

:05:14.:05:17.

of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the

:05:18.:05:21.

media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the

:05:22.:05:27.

final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the

:05:28.:05:31.

Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,

:05:32.:05:35.

but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are

:05:36.:05:38.

picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge

:05:39.:05:41.

number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with

:05:42.:05:47.

politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election if

:05:48.:05:50.

I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of

:05:51.:05:53.

questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier

:05:54.:05:58.

with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all

:05:59.:06:02.

of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as

:06:03.:06:06.

a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown

:06:07.:06:09.

during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex

:06:10.:06:20.

Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he

:06:21.:06:24.

continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under

:06:25.:06:28.

his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health

:06:29.:06:31.

service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe

:06:32.:06:38.

Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as

:06:39.:06:42.

quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people

:06:43.:06:49.

as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.

:06:50.:06:53.

Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish

:06:54.:06:59.

Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him

:07:00.:07:02.

the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He

:07:03.:07:07.

crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a

:07:08.:07:12.

certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent

:07:13.:07:17.

himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who

:07:18.:07:22.

was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red

:07:23.:07:26.

paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the

:07:27.:07:31.

Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both

:07:32.:07:34.

been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than

:07:35.:07:38.

looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't

:07:39.:07:41.

Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?

:07:42.:07:46.

What George and I are agreed on and you have to remember this question

:07:47.:07:52.

of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other

:07:53.:07:54.

things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,

:07:55.:07:58.

Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of

:07:59.:08:04.

Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an

:08:05.:08:07.

independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed

:08:08.:08:12.

miserably, absolutely miserably because they have given up

:08:13.:08:15.

everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just

:08:16.:08:20.

taken on the bank -- mantle of a left of centre party and are picking

:08:21.:08:24.

up support. Gordon and the rest in my opinion, they represent the past.

:08:25.:08:28.

The yes vote on the Yes campaign represents the future. What do you

:08:29.:08:31.

say to that? There is nothing socialist about an SNP that wants to

:08:32.:08:38.

cut business tax by 3% in the pan. There is nothing socialist about an

:08:39.:08:42.

SNP destroying further education so they can give middle-class people

:08:43.:08:46.

free education. The Labour Party is alive and kicking. You can see if it

:08:47.:08:50.

is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to

:08:51.:08:57.

use this word, but they are kind of privatised from the Scottish Labour

:08:58.:09:00.

Party. They have rode their own fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump

:09:01.:09:05.

because official Scottish Labour did not want him leading their campaign.

:09:06.:09:10.

Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off the stage until it became so

:09:11.:09:14.

critical that he had to be brought back. I agree with John, the SNP

:09:15.:09:20.

talks left but acts right. That is before they get state powers. That

:09:21.:09:25.

is what is exciting about the referendum, it's not about the SNP,

:09:26.:09:29.

it's about the people deciding. What we have heard so far in the

:09:30.:09:32.

referendum campaign is that there is a desperate yearning in the

:09:33.:09:36.

electorate for real politics, purposeful politics and for the

:09:37.:09:40.

people to be represented. It is probably to the eternal shame of

:09:41.:09:43.

labour that they gave up that role and other people are now taking it

:09:44.:09:47.

upon themselves. How would you assess the state of the Labour

:09:48.:09:51.

Party? The problem is that it was demolished by the SNP in 2011 and

:09:52.:09:55.

what they should have done since then and in other circumstances is

:09:56.:09:58.

take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and

:09:59.:10:02.

policies and watch out what they stood for. They've been unable to do

:10:03.:10:05.

that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan

:10:06.:10:12.

of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as

:10:13.:10:15.

an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own

:10:16.:10:18.

programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have

:10:19.:10:24.

more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre

:10:25.:10:29.

question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the

:10:30.:10:33.

function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there

:10:34.:10:37.

is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an SNP which attracts votes from the

:10:38.:10:41.

left and that is the one for me Whether that is called the SNP or

:10:42.:10:44.

something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are

:10:45.:10:49.

going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally

:10:50.:10:57.

flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English

:10:58.:11:01.

dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum

:11:02.:11:05.

campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour

:11:06.:11:09.

of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip

:11:10.:11:13.

from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this

:11:14.:11:19.

unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets

:11:20.:11:21.

second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the

:11:22.:11:24.

same as us, they should have it and then there would be commonality so

:11:25.:11:29.

we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies

:11:30.:11:32.

in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear

:11:33.:11:40.

that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge

:11:41.:11:42.

implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly

:11:43.:11:47.

after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge

:11:48.:11:51.

applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that

:11:52.:11:56.

there should be an English boys It would be a step too far for me to

:11:57.:12:01.

agree with him -- English voice I appreciate I might have gone out on

:12:02.:12:05.

a limb. He is the voice of Mars the Balkan from Mars. My own

:12:06.:12:11.

constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things

:12:12.:12:16.

being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about

:12:17.:12:20.

us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the

:12:21.:12:25.

John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet

:12:26.:12:32.

to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in

:12:33.:12:35.

Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon

:12:36.:12:41.

Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has

:12:42.:12:44.

absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,

:12:45.:12:49.

hey, what are you talking about We have never been discussed with that?

:12:50.:12:53.

We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get

:12:54.:12:58.

the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you

:12:59.:13:03.

think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented

:13:04.:13:08.

election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working

:13:09.:13:11.

class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our

:13:12.:13:20.

side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --

:13:21.:13:23.

technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it

:13:24.:13:28.

is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am

:13:29.:13:31.

predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.

:13:32.:13:37.

Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will

:13:38.:13:40.

edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in

:13:41.:13:47.

a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the

:13:48.:13:52.

passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,

:13:53.:14:03.

53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with George. I will leave you

:14:04.:14:06.

to argue about that later. Thank you for being with us on the special

:14:07.:14:08.

Sunday politics from Edinburgh. That's all from us today

:14:09.:14:10.

in Scotland. Don't forget the Daily Politics will

:14:11.:14:12.

have continuing coverage of the referendum campaign all this

:14:13.:14:14.

week on BBC2 at midday. On Thursday night Huw Edwards will

:14:15.:14:17.

be in Glasgow and I will be in London to bring you live coverage

:14:18.:14:20.

of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm on a historic night for Scotland

:14:21.:14:24.

and the rest of the United Kingdom. And I'll be back next Sunday

:14:25.:14:27.

when we're live from the Labour Unless, of course, the referendum

:14:28.:14:30.

result is so tumultuous even the Remember if it's Sunday,

:14:31.:14:38.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:14:39.:14:43.

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