23/10/2016 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by former Ukip deputy leader Paul Nuttall, international development minister Rory Stewart and shadow defence secretary Nia Griffith.

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There's another candidate in the race to become Ukip's next


leader: Suzanne Evans, the party's former deputy chairman,


This man might have something to say about that.


Paul Nuttal was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years.


So is he now ready to throw his hat in the ring?


The battle for Mosul: the Iraqi army and its allies advane


on the country's second city which has been in the hands of


But what will be the fallout from this key clash?


In the West: The Stroud mum behind Momentum Kids.


They hit back at claims that their brand of


political childcare is creating a generation of tiny Trots.


one of the richest cities in the world. Should all private landlords


be licensed to help tackle the squalor?


And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political


panel in the business: Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn -


The last leader was in the job a mere 18 days before she decided


The favourite to succeed her then quit the party after a now infamous


Ukip's biggest donor says the party is at "breaking point".


This morning, the former Deputy Chairman, Suzanne Evans,


announced that she would be running for the leadership.


I've thought long and hard about this leadership bid,


and one of the reasons I've perhaps delayed announcing it is


because I wanted to be absolutely sure that I had the support


And I can confirm that I have more than enough signatures


on the nomination form already to be able to go forward.


Let's not forget that 3,000 people signed a petition in support of me


I know head office was besieged with letters in support.


I would not be doing this if I didn't have the backing


of our members, because our members are the most important


Well, Paul Nuttall was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years


and plenty of people saw him as a leader-in-waiting.


Let's ask the man himself - Paul Nuttall joins me now.


Yes. I've made the decision that I'm going to put my name forward to be


the next leader of Ukip. I have huge support across the country, not only


amongst people at the top of the party in Westminster and with the


MEPs, but also the grassroots. I want to be the unity candidate. Ukip


needs to come together. I'm not going to gild the lily. Ukip is


looking over a political cliff at the moment. It will either step four


step back, and I want to tell us to step backwards. You say it faces an


ex-distension or threat, which means it's possible it has no future at


all. Students of political history know that political parties take a


long time to get going. They can disappear pretty quickly. Ukip is


facing an existential crisis. What happened over the summer has put us


on a... We could be on a spiral that we can't get off. But I believe I am


the man to bring the factions together, to create unity within the


party, and to build on the structure and get us ready for the common


challenges. Why didn't you stand last time? Because I have spent the


last four or five years of my life travelling around the country. I


have done more Ukip meetings than anybody else, spending a lot of time


away from home. With Brexit, I felt that my job and Nigel's job was done


and we could hand over to the next generation. That doesn't seem to be


the case, and maybe it's time for someone who is an old hand. I'm very


experienced and I know the party inside out. Maybe it's time to step


in and bring the party together You told the Liverpool Echo on the night


of July that you didn't wish to take on Nigel Farage, you didn't want


that to happen to your family and friends. What has changed? The party


is facing an existential crisis and I want to make sure that Ukip is on


the pitch to keep the ball into the open net we have in politics. We


have a Conservative Party who is moving toward Brexit, but we have to


be there too. Why would you be better than Suzanne Evans? Suzanne


would be an excellent candidate I thought the 2015 manifesto was the


best out of all the political parties. I would be the best


candidate because of my experience. I am not part of any faction within


the party. Is she? I get on well with everybody, and I believe I


could be the man to bring the party together. Do you get on with Iain


Banks, -- Aaron Banks, who is supporting one of your rivals? Yes,


I get on well with him. He is able to choose whoever he wants to be the


next leader of the party. After November 28, the leadership


election, we all say, the past the past. It becomes Daisy row for the


new leader. We forget all that has before and move on. You won the


referendum. Mrs May is adopting some of your policies, like grammar


schools. What is the point of Ukip these days? Twofold. We don't have


Brexit. Mrs May said she would not invoke Article 50 until the end of


March, and we don't know if that will happen. We need to ensure a


strong Ukip to make sure that Brexit really does mean Brexit. We have a


huge opportunity in working class communities where the Labour Party


no longer represents them. I believe Ukip can become the voice of working


people. If you were the leader, would Ukip be a bigger threat to


Labour in the north or the Tories in the South? You save Labour in the


north, and people often to make that mistake. There's working class


communities right across the country is. There are working-class


communities in Bristol just as in Newcastle. We are second in a


number of northern seats, and southern seats as well, and I


believe the party can move into these communities. It can only do so


if Ukip is on the pitch, and I intend to make sure that's the case.


I don't think we have portrayed a good image over the summer. Is that


called British understatement? A bit. It is dysfunctional. We have to


move on beyond Nigel Farage. We have to build a strong national Executive


Committee. We need to ensure our branches are ready for the fight and


concentrate on local elections. I've got the experience. I'm now throwing


my hat into the ring, and I'm the only person who can keep Ukip in the


game. What role would you give Nigel Farage, if any? I will be the


candidate of compromise. I would see what Nigel wanted to do. Would you


keep in the leader of the freedom and democracy group in the European


Parliament? There would have to be compromise on both sides, and we


would need to talk about it. I don't know what Nigel wants to do. Do you


think his support, his association with Donald Trump, helps Ukip win


female votes in this country? Personally, I would not have gone


out and campaigned or said anything about Donald Trump, but I don't


think Ukip has come out and backed Donald Trump 100%. Personally, I


wouldn't have even spoken about the American election, because I think


the two candidates are quite appalling. Some up for us. If you


win, what would be the hallmark of your Ukip leadership? The first


couple of months would be ensuring that Ukip unifies. Saying no to


factions, bringing people together. Suzanne Evans, Nigel Farage, all of


the MEPs, and ensuring that Ukip can move forward. If we don't unify


Ukip will not be around for much longer. Thanks for being with us


this morning. We won't have to wait too long


to find out who Ukip's new leader will be -


the winner will be announced Who would be the best leader for


Ukip? I think the difference between the field a few weeks ago and today


is that this field is a lot stronger. Whether it's Paul or


Suzanne, I think... It is hard to say, with Aaron Banks and apparently


Nigel Farage hacking another candidate, Raheem, but I want Ukip


to be a strong force in British politics. I think the fact there is


a stronger field now is good news for Ukip. Is it a Labour's worst


nightmare in the north of England? It is. I think the personality


difference and presentational difference is interesting. Suzanne


Evans is going for the Conservative county vote. There's a lot to be


taken there by Ukip. He would probably be more appealing to the


Labour vote. It is interesting. At the moment, pollsters say that the


Ukip vote splits pretty easily between Labour and Tory. But things


always collapse. When they have made inroads into Tower Hamlets and


Barking, they collapse, because they fight amongst each other so much.


But not always with fists! Does Ukip have a future? And who would best


secure that future? It does for at least two years, until we Brexit. We


have to believe that that will happen. That was an impressive pitch


there from Paul, certainly as the unity candidate, after the car crash


we have seen on TV screens this morning. But it doesn't go beyond


May 20 19. What then? There is no point being called the United


Kingdom Independence party any longer. What will happen after May


2019? If you want to hoover up votes of the back of Brexit, you need to


start looking further ahead than two years. The person who wins that


leadership contest is the person who will sum that up the best. We shall


see. In June 2014, the group which calls


itself the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant captured Iraq's


second city, Mosul. Later that month the group announced


it was establishing a 'caliphate', or an Islamic state,


on the territories it This week 30,000 Iraqi troops, aided


by Iranian-backed Shia fighters Kurdish Peshmerga and Western air


support, began the assault Then they spot a truck bomb


from so-called Islamic State. They destroy it before


it destroys them. These are the first steps


in the battle for Mosul, the Northern Iraqi city IS has


made its stronghold since 2014. Controlling the city of around


2 million people means that they established governance,


they establish a territorial base. This is what has obsessed everyone,


because with a territorial base you are capable of doing more


than if you are simply an insurgency movement in the fabric


of another society. It's being billed as the biggest


military operation in Iraq since the war in 2003, the biggest


moment in the international effort Here is how the various forces


are approaching the city. Heading to Mosul from the south


the elite troops of the Iraqi army. Known as the Golden division,


trained and accompanied From the North, a force made up


of Kurds, known as the Peshmerga, Also from the South,


a militia made up of Shia fighters who have been accused


of human rights abuses. British planes have bombed outlying


villages, reportedly guided in by British personnel


on the ground. To the North West, a corridor


has been left for some of the 3000 plus IS fighters,


in theory an escape route which could limit the bloodshed


when fighting starts in the city. We've had 4-5 days of battle


and it's taking place in the outlying villages


and there have been some successes and some failures,


but the momentum is building. And the real question will be


when the attackers get towards the city itself,


how strong are the defences? It will crack but it might crack


within 48 hours or 2-3 weeks. IS has fought back,


on Friday they attack sites in the city of Kirkuk,


including a power station. The United Nations believes hundreds


of thousands of families have been rounded up


as potential human shields. The battle could be bloody,


but what about when it's over? The Shia militias, the Iraqi army,


the Peshmerga guerrillas, some of the Turkish elements,


they all want a share of the action. They are in Mosul, not


for altruistic reasons. They are there because they want


to be part of whatever happens next. The biggest issue is how the Sunni


majority in Mosul reacts to the Shia militias which have


helped to liberate them. ARCHIVE FOOTAGE: When Sir Francis


Humphrey went to Mosul If it all seems like something


from the archive, when the Middle East went up in flames


and was then carved up, it is because that is what is


happening in Iraq right now. National identity has been cut


across by other identities such And that means that putting together


a so-called nation state again Almost certainly there will be


a new form of Kurdish state, almost certainly in northern Iraq


at the end of this crisis, and what is happening in Mosul


is a microcosm of what is happening elsewhere across the Levant


which is that it is melting down. Big questions, questions that


come after the battle. The coalition forces are advancing


but this is just the beginning. I'm joined now by the International


Development Minister Rory Stewart. In a former life he was


the coalition Deputy-Governor of two provinces in Southern Iraq following


the Iraq intervention of 2003. Is there any doubt that at some


stage Mosul will fall to the forces of Iraq and its allies? The first


thing is that war is very uncertain and there are cliches about it being


the graveyard of predictions and we don't want to make confident


predictions but the basic structure is that there are 30,000 Iraqi


forces outside and only a few thousand Daesh fighters inside and I


would say it is overwhelmingly likely that the batter will one


STUDIO: -- the battle the won by the Iraqi forces.


June 2014 was a great success, they took a city of over in people and


they created what they tried to create a million state of 7 million


people, stretching across the Iraqi Syrian border, but since then they


have lost territory quite rapidly. Now they are losing the outskirts of


Mosul, and that is a fundamental blow. Islamic State is all about


territory and holding state, that is what makes it different from


Al-Qaeda. If they lose Mosul that will be a cynic -- significant blow


to their credibility. Hillary Clinton said on Wednesday's


presidential debate that when Iraqi forces with their allies including


the United Kingdom gain control of Mosul they should continue to press


into Syria to take back Raqqa which is the de facto capital of the


caliphate, what is left of it, do we want Iraqi forces to pursue IS into


Syria? Very important question. Delayed in Raqqa needs to come from


people on the Syrian side of the border and that is an important


principle -- the lead. In the end of that enemy, Islamic State, is a


common enemy for odd members of the coalition including the Iraqi


government. -- all members. There is likely to be a humanitarian crisis


especially if it ends up with street to street fighting and IS are


difficult to dislodge what are we doing about that? We are doing very


detailed scenario planning. It is very uncertain what the scenario


will be but much investment has gone into creating a network of camps,


refugees STUDIO: Refugee camps around cash refugee camps, and that


is where money, British money, 40 million has gone recently into


supporting that, especially in terms of medical support to people. The


United nation's emergency response budget is ?196 million but only one


third funded which sounds like we are putting up a big chunk of what


is already being funded. Why is that? The international committee


can't say they haven't seen this assault coming, and the humanitarian


fallout they may see from it. You are absolutely right. We have seen


it coming and we have been planning since debris and we have put in


about ?167 million into this -- planning since February. There has


been a change in the nature of the appeal, and if there is a lag in the


accounting of it, but the money we need at this stage is in place and


we do have the support structure in place for those refugees. You are


right the United Nations is continuing with its appeal and is


asking for more money at the moment. The converse magazine wrote this


week that preparations for a big exodus of people leaving the city


have been made -- Economist magazine. But confidence is not high


in the preparations, is that a unfair conclusion? If you can


imagine the different scenarios it could be a few thousand and it could


be a few hundred thousand coming out of the city through a front line


where the war is going on, that is very difficult. You have to screen


those people and disarm them, and keep families together, and


transport them and you have to bring them into the refugee camps. The


people working on this have been working on this for long time, we


have mapped the different routes we have good camp infrastructure in


place and we have people who have worked in south to dam and other


areas who are putting their structures in place -- South Sudan.


It is never easy but I think we have done everything we can in the


preparation for this. What is the British role in what will probably


be an even bigger issue, assuming that Mosul is liberated and retaken,


the humanitarian crisis is dealt with, what role will we play in the


rebuilding of Mosul? That will be crucial to the future of Iraq, the


second-biggest city and it will need to be rebuilt. It will need to be


rebuilt as a community as well as bricks and mortar. And eight Sunni


community that is not harassed by the Shia. -- and eight. You are


right. One of the core drivers is that the Sunni community felt


excluded and they did not feel they have the trust from the Baghdad


government. A lasting solution is stopping some of Islamic State


coming back, that involves making sure the Sunni community have a


stake in their future. That is making sure that the governing


structures are in place. The UK s response is twofold, we have got to


get the humanitarian aid right, that is the short term, people who might


be malnourished, coming out of the front line. The second thing is


working with the Iraqi government to make sure that as we rebuild Mosul


we do so in a way that that population feels a connection to the


Iraqi state. Islamic State is losing territory everywhere in the Levant,


it is almost finished in Iraq, we think. It is down to one district in


Libya, as well, just one small part of the town. I suppose the risk is,


if life is becoming more difficult across these areas, it can start to


look more in Europe and the United Kingdom as a place to continue its


terrorist attacks? That is a real danger. You are right. This is a


group which has proved over the last five years very unpredictable and it


changes for it quickly full stop often it does unexpected things In


2009 its predecessor had been largely wiped out in Iraq and when


it was under pressure in Syria it went back into Iraq, and in the past


it didn't hold territory but now it holds territory, so you are right.


There is a serious risk that as it gets squeezed in the middle East it


will try to pop up somewhere else and Mac could include Europe and the


United States -- that could. They say that is something they have


focused on full stop we also have a big focus on counterterrorism


security and making sure that we keep the United Kingdom and Europe


say. One final question. -- say -- safe. Maybe events in Mosul could


add to the migration crisis in Europe, is that a possibility?


Again, you are right, we have seen in Syria it can push migration, the


biggest push the migration was the conflict in Syria, and that's the


reason why we have but so much energy into getting those refugee


camps in place and getting the humanitarian response in place -


put so much energy. People will want to remain in their homes, this is


their country, but we have got to make it possible for them and that


means in the short term looking after their shelter and in the


medium to long-term making sure they have livelihoods, jobs and an


economic development which is why our support in Iraq is in the UK


National interests because it deals with these issues of migration and


terrorists. Thanks for joining us. I'm joined now by the Shadow Defence


Secretary. Does Labour support British


participation in this offensive We fully support the participation in


this offensive, extremely important move forward and we voted for this


back in 2014. We are asking the government question is, of course, I


was asking the Secretary of State this week about this very offensive


but we are fully behind our RAF pilots out there and be trading that


has been going on to help the forces on the ground. -- the training full


stop that is very clear. I wonder if you'll lead it shares that clarity


and that position. -- is your leader. This is what Jeremy Corbyn


has said. What's been done in Iraq


is done by the Iraqi government, and currently


supported by the British government. I did not support it


when it came up. Well, I'm not sure how successful


it's been, because most of the action now appears to be


moving in to Syria, so I think we He doesn't sound very supportive.


The issue about Mosul, it has been very carefully prepared as Rory


Stewart said and I hope we have learned the lessons from previous


offensives where we haven't learnt sufficiently, and that is going to


be crucial in this context. How the aftermath is going to be dealt with.


Of course will stop that clip was from November last year, and things


have changed. Two weeks ago he told the BBC" I'm not sure it is


working", in reference to air strikes in Iraq, but it is working.


We have got to see what happens in Mosul, it is a very high-risk


operation, but we also have to face the fact that the people there are


living under tyranny at the moment. We have to ask very cirrus question


shall stop he says he's not sure it is working, when Mosul is the last


major target be cleared of Islamic State in Iraq. The combination of


Allied air power has worked, why is he not sure it is working? Because


we have seen difficulties in the past. But this was two weeks ago. It


is essential that the work is done, both planning for the refugees as


Rory Stewart referred to, but also in terms of reconstruction of the


city and its community as you mentioned. These are vital. This was


about the ability to make progress with Allied air power, special


forces in Iraq, on the ground, do you accept so far that has a


strategy that seems to be working to read Iraq of Islamic -- to read Iraq


of Islamic State the question of the car began placement. Ulloa -- we


can't be complacent. The problems they are creating where ever they


are urged that we must continue to pursue them. This is the first time


we have spoken to since you have become the Shadow Defence Secretary.


I hope we will have a longer interview. Will Labour's next


manifesto include a commitment to the renewal of Trident? It will We


made that commitment in 2007, that is a firm commitment and we will


honour that to our coalition allies and our industrial partners and that


is the vote which was taken democratically and repeatedly has


been reaffirmed by Labour conference and we are a democratic party vote


up you have squared that with Jeremy Corbyn? He's in favour of democracy


and he understands the situation, but we also want to push for the UK


to play a much bigger role on the international stage on multilateral


disarmament talks. You were very clear there, I thank you for that.


Support for Trident will be in the next Labour manifesto. What has


happened to Labour's review of Trident policy? That review has been


taking place over the year, we had a very clear reaffirmation in the


conference boat this year, we are reaffirming our commitment to


Trident -- vote. The review can t change that? There is a process of


review and a fair number of issues related to defence, all parties do


this. Of course. The review can t change the commitment to Trident? We


are not changing the commitment to Trident. Russia is now the main


strategic threat to this country? It is a major strategic threat and we


have got to work with our Nato allies very closely and make sure


that we respond and that we do not let things pass. For example, we


should be calling out Russia for the way it has been a bombing


humanitarian aid and we should be taking them to international court


over this, but we should also be strengthening sanctions, somewhat


imposed over Ukraine. We try to do that, but the Italians wouldn't let


us. The Italians did not want to participate in the European


initiative but that doesn't stop individual countries for the Britain


should step up? Yes, we should look at what is practical to impose.


Thanks for joining us. Mosul is not the only major battle


being waged in the Middle East. The city of Aleppo in northern Syria


has seen some of the heaviest bombardment since Syria's


five-year-long civil war began. This week Russian warships,


in a deliberate show of power, sailed west through the English


channel en route to Syria. Nato says it's Russia's "largest


surface deployment" since the end of the Cold War in what is thought


to be preparation for a final assault


on the besieged city of Aleppo. In the city itself fighting


resumed overnight - following a 3-day ceasefire -


with more air strikes and heavy clashes in the city's


rebel-held eastern districts. Almost 500 people have been


killed and 2,000 injured since Syrian government forces,


backed by Russian air strikes, This week Theresa May condemned


Vladimir Putin's involvement in Syria, accusing Moscow


of being behind "sickening atrocities" in support


of President Assad's regime. But European leaders are divided


on how to respond and, with the United States preoccupied


with domestic politics, President Putin senses this


is his moment to bring the Syrian I'm joined now by the BBC's former


Diplomatic and Moscow Correspondent, Bridget Kendall, who is now Master


of Peterhouse College in Cambridge. Welcome. Good to see you in the BBC


studio again. Let me put up this satellite image of Aleppo here, to


get an idea of the scale. It was the biggest city in Syria. It was the


commercial capital and a huge cultural hub as well. Almost the New


York of Syria, to give you an idea of its significance to the country.


Let me show you now how it's been divided. The rebels are now in


control of the eastern part, about eight miles long and three miles


wide there, they're in purple. They are under great attacks still. Is it


inevitable that that purple part falls to the regime? That is what


President as Saad, the Russians and the Iranians hope. The fierce


bombardments we have seen is part of that. I'm reminded very much in the


Russian tactics of what happened in grudgingly in Chechnya in 2000, when


the Russians said, a warning for all civilians to lead, and then they


went ahead and they basically raised it to the ground. They are talking


about Al Nusrah as being one of the rebel groups. They got rid of all of


the terrorists. They talk about it being an Al-Qaeda offshoot. The


purpose of going in is to get rid of them. You get the civilians out and


then you take it. But this isn't like Chechnya. It is much more


complex. We have seen an attempt to take Aleppo before, and then there


was a rebel counter offensive. It's not so certain. And there are so


many different parties involved We have seen the alarm in the west of


the extent of the civilian casualties. There have been


rumblings in the west of, shouldn't the United States do something?


Shouldn't they stop the Syrian air force? This Russian aircraft carrier


steaming its way towards the Eastern Mediterranean is a symbolic gesture,


both to its own people, but also to the West, to say, don't get involved


in Aleppo if we go ahead. Don't try and stop us because we could up the


ante. They have not been great visual pictures, because the


aircraft carrier looks a bit clapped out, belching out smoke! If the


rebel controlled area does fall it would be seen as a great victory for


President as Saad and his Russian allies. What is the aim of Russia


here? What would they then do, if Aleppo Falls? It is part of a plan


that President Putin set out in his UN speech in 2014, before Russia


went into Syria. The aim is to put President Assad back in charge.


President Putin said this weekend that either is Assad in Damascus, or


its Al Nusrah. There is nothing in between. They want to eliminate the


argument for a moderate opposition. They want to make it plain that the


only way to get a stable Syria is to have Assad back in charge. Even sue


argue for a rump steak lit, leaving aside what is happening with IAS.


They have already said they want to have an enlarged military presence


at their bases. And they have a big naval base. It is. It is a chance to


push for this when he sees the West is being distracted and divided


Europe and America, by elections and so on. Just before the US elections.


The Americans are worried about that, Europeans are being distracted


by Brexit. He can push to his maximum advantage now, before there


is a new US president. If they do take that part of Aleppo, and that


part of northern Syria, does Mr Putin want us to recognise, to


admit, that that is now his sphere of influence? I think the rhetoric


from the Russians is that they want the West to recognise that they are


an equal powerful partner. It's not just the US that runs the writ in


the Middle East. Russia is as important as it is. It is engaging


with Saudi Arabia and has mended fences with Turkey. Syria is the


place from which it can launch its message that it is a big player in


the Middle East. Russia wants the West to understand that this isn't a


country that was dismembered after the end of the Soviet Union and is


now a week. It is back, and it is strong. That is an important


message. Looking at the economy It is in recession. GDP has been


falling, partly because of the price of oil. It is highly dependent on


hydrocarbons, and is expected to fall again. Its people are falling


again. People don't realise how small the Russian economy is. Its


GDP is about the size of Italy's. It is smaller than the UK economy.


Bigger than it was 15 or 20 years ago. But so is Britain's does it


help to take people's mind of this? A huge shock to the Russian economy


was a drop in the price of oil and a price of gas. A drop in the price of


the ruble as well. This is hurting the people of Russia. On the one


hand, it is the war in Syria, which is very important for Russia to sort


out that part of the world and dispensed terrorists who might be


danger to -- is dangerous to Russia. But he had also has presidential


election is going up. They are supposed to be 2018, but some feel


he will bring them forward to 2 17, because the economy is not doing so


well. But you need a good story for the Russian people. Thank you very


much. We say goodbye to viewers


in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to


Sunday Politics here in the West. Coming up: When politics


is child's play. We hear from one of the founders


of Momentum Kids which organises activities for children


with a political flavour. They'll respond to claims that


they're making a generation of mini I'm joined by two grown-ups


with youngsters of their own. It's a Coalition pairing just


like the old times. Conservation group leader


on Bristol City Council Mark Weston and for the Lib Dems,


their general election candhdate for Kingswood when the election


comes, Carole Wilkinson. Let's start with the


by-election in Whitney. Are you shocked or surprised


by the Lib Dem's surge? I have to confess to being puite


happy with the result. When David Cameron first won


the seat he won with 45% of the vote We've been in government for six


years and we won it So, from a Conservative point


of view I'm quite happy. But the Lib Dems had a pretty good


result and bucked the trend Our vote's been going up


across the country. Partly they ran an excellent


campaign and got stuck into that. The other thing I think is people


are really very worried about what is going on with Brexit,


about noises they're hearing It will be interesting


to see what happens Do you think it's a sign th`t people


don't want a hard Brexit? I don't think you can read too much


into a single by-election. There needs to be a much wider


sampling of the vote. I think one of the problems we have


with Brexit is we need more information but it's a complicated


negotiations so the information But I'm happy with the result


and glad I'm not in Ukip's shoes. OK, even though you lost


a lot of support. How's this for a solution


to the financial woes faced by some A big one-off leap in counchl tax


without restrictions. That is what Swindon is doing


with a catch, you have to create a whole new layer


of local government. They've cut and cut and cut,


but now Swindon Borough Council wants to hand over jobs likd grass


cutting to parish councils. There aren't any in most of the town


so three would be created. They could then add a chargd


to council tax bills, perhaps ? 5. We're facing unprecedented budget


pressures and we are facing unprecedented pressure


on our services for vulnerable That squeezes in important local


services, like street cleanhng and grass cutting and looking


after children's playgrounds. This allows us to ring fencd that


money and provide the It was backed by the ruling


Conservative cabinet and there was much talk


of the rising cost of social services and falling


funding from Whitehall. But that may not mean much


to the 130,000 residents We pay a lot of money


out and they don't do It seems to be an excuse


to put everything up It's bad isn't it because wd pay


enough now for different thhngs It is also being


considered in Bristol. At present, it has no town or parish


councils in contrast As people in Bristol want to know


what it's like to have an extra local council all they need to do


is cross the city boundary. Although it is part of urban


South Gloucestershire, It's interesting to


compare it to Kingswood. Kingswood is a suburb that's also


part of South Gloucestershire but it Filton has a leisure centre


and so does Kingswood. They have similar facilities and,


yes, both have playgrounds though the town council boasts


that they have rather You're saying people in Filton


get better facilities No, I think just maybe


we get a bum deal. Yes, because these things are extra


and this is why our services are a bit higher than counchls


nearby because they don't h`ve Filton's ?190 council tax charge


also funds offices and staff. Councillors themselves aren't paid,


but holding elections aren't cheap The problem is getting


people to do it. We struggle here quite often to be


quorate at meetings because it's Back in Swindon like in Swindon


dozens of new councillors whll be needed if the plan gets a fhnal


go-ahead next month. Joining me is David Reynard,


the leader of Swindon The plan is to complete this


patchwork of parish councils and, therefore, you will be able to say


to the parish councils, Half of Swindon is parished


half isn't in Swindon, mainly for historical reasons,


but we want to extend the bdnefits It would give local


residents more choice over And less choice over


how much cash they pay? You quoted ?75, but I represent


and live in a parished area and pay ?35 a year and I get really good


services for that money. What many people may suspect is that


council spending is tight so you devolve it to parish level


and there is no cap That is true but the governlent


is consulting on that. And we're already doing that


with existing parishes. So it's a way of getting more money


out of the tax taxpayer? No, it's about protecting


services people value. If they stay with the borough


council, more of our money hs going on adult and children social care,


therefore there will be less to pay Actually, it's about raising


extra revenue as well? You are on Bristol City Council


would you support parishes springing No, I must confess


to not being a fan. As David said, half of their


residents are already in parishes. In Bristol, it's a new structure


for everybody and I must confess to being nervous about sudddnly


having additional As far as I see it, I would end up


paying for another level of I'm slightly concerned that some


of the wealthier areas of the city would be able to have a fairly low


charge to do what they want and the poorer areas


can least afford it. It would be up to each individual


parish council to decide wh`t level of services they want to provide


and we have that in Swindon. Are you putting up the council tax


by the maximum you can each year? We are, as I think you'll fhnd


all top tier councils are doing You're a former parish


councillor, aren't you? This has come about because of


severe cuts in government ftnding In South Gloucestershire,


they had to take ?38 million a year out of the budget announced


an additional 40 million. Bristol council had to get rid


of 1,000 jobs in a month As a parish councillor,


do you support it? Parish councils are extremely


valuable where the people involved are engaged and represent


a whole load of different people in the community


add a constructive. Some parish councils


don't function very well. It's all about the people you can


get on board and moving forward OK, other cities miss out bx not


having local representation that There is a difference betwedn places


which are in cities and havd a good At the moment, parish counchls


are being asked to do things like fund all the things


which the council used to ftnd before and if they don't find


it, who does? It doesn't have to just


be parish councillors! Let us talk about the bigger issue


of council tax rises. Bristol has announced


cuts to services to come and still the council tax


going up by 4% a year over That's a tremendous amount


of money, isn't it? We have a particular demogr`phic


with more older people. So, you support the mayor's plan


to put up the council tax? We're still in consultation


so I can't commit, but I can understand the reasons why


you'd have to do it. And 4% a year is going to bd


a couple of hundred quid, isn't it? Theresa May talks about hard-working


families not losing out but that's a weekend away or a holiday perhaps


in five years' time? As Conservatives, we're keen to keep


tax as low as possible, but Mark is right, the incrdase


in the number of elderly who need care and support,


the number of young people By 2020, we anticipate that 80%


of our budget will be spent on supporting vulnerable people


and that is the challenge. Few political ideas have catsed


delight and derision in such equal At its heart it's about combining


childcare with politics, but some believe more sinister


motives are at play. Robin Markwell takes up a t`le that


began in Gloucestershire. Once upon a time in the land not


so far-away, there lived a lan One day the people who really


liked him and wanted him to be Prime Minister


held a big conference. But they found talking


about politics whilst looking after their children hard


so they formed a childcare group It's immediately clear wherd


the founder of momentum kids lives, from the sign on the window


to the banner in the front room This is apolitical household


and this Stroud mum wants From asking them what poliches their


teddy bear should be championing... The teddy bear has a whole list


of ideas about how the teddx bear ..to word searches with


a radical bent. We've got words here


like equality, state, love. You don't often see that


in a child's word search! But Momentum Kids, to put it mildly,


has not been without its crhtics. From being lampooned on sochal media


- in this case D is for desdlection They've even seized the nurseries,


too, opening branches of Molentum Or my particular


favourite, Tiny Trots. I don't think people are re`lly


getting why we're doing this. It was about inclusion


and about making our lives lore interesting and better


and bringing our families There is an element


of indoctrination of childrdn They are shown adverts,


pink for girls in blue for boys They are constantly


being marketed to. We're trying to create an atmosphere


for children to be curious I'm not particularly interested


in my children being mini Corbynistas because,


quite frankly, in 20 years when they're out doing thei


grass roots activism, The aim is to roll this out


nationwide and that evening we were given a sneak previdw of how


it might work. At a gym in Swindon


they held a trial session, Tell me when the bad guy


is about to grab you. The lesson here was


about empowerment. And while inside they learn


to deal with an attack... It meant the mums could go outside


and talk politics with a sm`ll P. Children are a lot more savvy today


with what's going on. Certainly more so than


I was at that age. It's fun, challenging and vdry


improving on our skills. And you get too big to mum


up as well? It's trying to get kids


to be more listened I'm interested in politics


and I think that maybe bringing politics to children


might be a bit useful. So, is this a bid to create


the Corbyn street fighters of tomorrow or a movement


to be applauded? Getting more youngsters


to grapple with politics. Joining us now is Natasha


who you saw in that film. Welcome and we saw your delhghtful


children. Do they go on strike


for more pocket money? It's all about bribery


with kids, isn't it? Is it indoctrination or is ht common


sense and fun? It's like I said in the clip just


then, children are indoctrinated. We're talking about questioning


curious children and whilst we ,as activists, are going out


and having meetings, whether it's Labour Party


meetings at seven o'clock when I want to put the kids to bed,


or Momentum activism, there is a platform that's


completely inclusive. Momentum is regarded


as being on the left of Labour and if there were a group


on the right of the Conserv`tives for young kids telling them


about immigration and self-reliance and that sort of stuff,


what would you say about th`t? I think to a certain extent people


are missing the point with what we're trying to do


because yes there are children's activities but actually


the most important thing If we're talking about a group


like Momentum who are opening out to so many people,


20,000 members, we're talking about inclusion,


equality and diversity and hn order to do that you have two provide


support for everybody. As a mum what I wanted to do


was start something that made it easy for people


like me, actually. OK, let us bring


in our other guests. You're from the group called


the Parents' Union, is Do you think it's right for mums


and dads to have time out and for the kids to get somd sort


of political awareness? For parents, like you say,


it's getting women into polhtics... I have three kids and it's


been really difficult. Luckily mine are getting older


but I would have thought I think there's no harm whatsoever


in children being told it's fine to question the status quo


and asking questions and becoming aware of issues because children


are affected by politics evdry day. Do their parents have


to pay for the school bus? What did they teach


you at Lib Dem school? Probably from my own perspective,


because I don't come from a political family,


when I was a kid we went to Sunday school creche


and then Sunday school. I've grown up and made


my own decisions. Have you stuck with those


Sunday school views? I coloured in pictures of prophets


and Jesus but I certainly don't We want people to be


involved in politics. I think probably the word sdarch


with "Unionise" has allowed what they're trying


to do to come into it. If "Capitalism" is the next word I'm


sure it will be fine! Children are susceptible


to a lot of things and that impression and influence coles


from all manner of directions. In politics we're trying


keep that balance. If nothing else, they will rebel


against us horribly in later life. You might find yourself


with rebellious children. We would welcome them


to the fold, of course! Childhood is probably one


of the least democratic timds Your parents always


tell you what to do. How do you get from that to sending


them out into the world as electorates, they will bd voting,


to question and think about what they want


in a political party? And what they can do


to change the world. You don't have to worry


about those things. You've got years to be concdrned


with grown-up issues. You need space just to play


and have fun. Actually, if you have been


to our Facebook page and sedn some of the placards the children did,


own their own, "Proper jobs There are already thinking


about this stuff. And you take them to


demonstrations as well? We would like our members


to have a presence there so there is a safe place for families to come


and share their feelings. We have no minimum age


of membership. I see no problem with that `nd it


if it helps carers... Are children naturally soci`list,


do you think? I don't know if it's


socialism or capitalism. I don't think it's defined


as an ideology which is why if we talking about education it has


to be a balanced approach I'm fully fearful that mine


will rebel hard and join With news of defections and Brexit


themed Christmas card here's a round-up in 60 seconds and this


week it is by Robin. The Swindon Labour councillor


performed a double He decided to join the Torids


as he was unhappy with Jerely Corbyn and then he rejoined Labour claiming


he'd made a mistake. Nick Clegg said his


door was always open. He can always try the Lib Ddms


and make it a hat-trick. The NHS trusts in Gloucestershire


and Cheltenham was placed After months of doubt,


Somerset is a 303 will be We are right to invest in pdak


infrastructure like the A303. And if it ever to early to talk


Christmas? We are very humorous people and it's


not all doom and gloom. Campaign group Bristol for Durope


has launched a range of Brexit themed Christmas cards designed


to wish weaving remainders `re very And, on that festive note


we must leave it for today. My thanks to all my guests


were coming along to our sttdio We will be back next week,


but for now letters go back go ahead with this policy, I know.


And now back to Andrew. So, Brexit, airports,


Calais and the chances With what Rory Stewart was saying


there, it is clear that Islamic State is losing territory in Iraq


now, and could come under pressure in Syria as well. It used to control


a whole swathe of the coast of Libya, and is now down to a small


area of Sirte in Libya. But curiously, it could make them more


dangerous here if they are being driven out of the Maghreb and the


Levant, they could be more dangerous here. Discuss. That was a very


interesting admission from a government minister, of all people,


and a well-informed one. Chasing Isis around the Middle East is


about... Like chasing Al-Qaeda around Afghanistan and Pakistan You


smash them somewhere, and they pop up somewhere else. He is right to


warn that these guys will go somewhere. And it may well be, in


Sirte, for example, across the magic oration -- across the Mediterranean


into Italy. A lot of the foreign fighters in Mosul have already gone,


we heard, which raises the question, to where? I think it is quite right


for government ministers to warn that it might have repercussions


here. We have been involved in this, with full public consent, as far as


we can tell. If it doesn't happen, if there are horrors and outrages


here and in the rest of Europe, that's fine. If it does happen, at


least the government is prepared. We knew surprised about how categorical


Nia Griffith was? She was categorical about support for the


Allied action in Iraq, and categorical about Russia. So much so


that perhaps written should take tougher sanctions on its own, even


if it can't get the Europeans to fall in line. I found that


interesting. I was surprised by that. Tom may be right that Rory


said more than perhaps he was intending, but I thought that some


of what she said sounded politically imprudent in the current context of


the Labour Party. I'm not sure she cleared those lines with the Labour


office. I'm not sure she and Jeremy are in the same place about it. I'm


not sure there is that much leadership. People at the moment get


out there and say what they think it's right for the party. She


sounded dead right to me. Whether it is ill-advised or not, people should


answer... I want to move on, because Brexit never goes away. This week we


saw Hilary Benn, former Shadow Foreign Secretary. He is going to be


the chair of the select committee in the Commons which will monitor the


Department for Brexit. All sorts of people will be coming to give


testimony and so one. Let's hear what he told Andrew Marr.


I think it will be very important for the government to indicate that


if it is not possible within the two years provided for by Article 5


to negotiate both our withdrawal agreement and a new trading


relationship, market access, including for services,


80% of our economy, million jobs, in financial services,


that it should tell the House of Commons that it will seek


a transitional arrangement with the European Union.


If the deal is not done at the end of the two-year Article 50 process,


would the government go for an interim agreement, or would it fall


back on WTO, World Trade Organisation, Rawls? My


understanding is the article 15 negotiation doesn't specifically


include what Britain's future trading relationship with the EU


would be. It is perfectly possible that Article 50 could be triggered,


and after two years we don't have a trade deal, but the trade deal


negotiations are ongoing when we are outside the EU. But the trade deal


negotiations are the most important thing. If Article 50 doesn't cover


it, what is it about? Absolutely essential. The trade deal with


Canada has taken nine years, and now it looks like it is fading, because


of the Walloons. Just one small part of the country. If you cannot do a


free-trade deal with Canada, a progressive, social Democratic


Canada, who can the EU do a trade deal with? You would think it would


be easy with us, because we have all of the level playing field


agreements in place. You would hope it would be easier, but it may not


be, because in the end, it will hinge on the single market and if we


are in or out. If we are in, can we have a small break on immigration?


It looks like not. What is interesting about the opinion polls


is, in the last two opinion polls there was a significant change in


public opinion, where people are now saying they think that actually


trade, the economy, the single market is more important than


immigration. If it is really true, as the observer is reporting today,


that banks are on the move, and in a year's time there could be a


significant collapse in the income we get from finance, the income that


the Treasury gets, then public opinion might change. They may say,


we don't want more immigration, but this isn't a price worth paying


Everything tends to be seen through the Brexit lens at the moment.


Things are not always as they seem. The Canadian- EU free trade


agreement was about increasing free trade between the EU and Canada and


therefore subject to the ratification of all members. Any


deal we do will not give us the same access we have at the moment. The


question is, how much will it be diminished? It may not be subject to


the same ratification process. Absolutely right. Another


unbelievably technical point that we still don't know is, if we can get


this free-trade deal with the EU at the same time as our Brexit talks


and deal, the divorce deal as well as the remarriage deal, then one


gets signed off by QM V. The trade deal may still need all 28, all 27,


including the people from the Walloons. And the MEPs. The majority


of parliament. This is exactly why Theresa May would like the


transitional deal to push this one deeper. I was surprised to hear


Hilary Benn pushing this line this morning. The remainers have been all


over the place. They wanted a vote after Article 50 had been triggered


about the deal. Then they wanted a vote before Article 50. Now they are


talking about a vote before article Article 50 is triggered about a


trade deal. They need to make up their minds about what it is they


are pushing for, and what their best hope of obstructing Brexit is, and


stick with it. Something else we see through the Brexit lens, which isn't


always helpful, is Calais. The French bulldozers will move in


tomorrow. We will see some pretty disturbing scenes on the TV. We will


see some horrible scenes. The government has handled this very


badly. Having passed an amendment in April saying we would take something


like 3000 children, a lot of those children have disappeared. Save the


Children, one of the charities there, are very worried that people


traffickers have been in there, and a lot of those children have


vanished. We haven't sent social workers in. No preparations have


been made what ever. You are raising an interesting point. We don't know


how many we are meant to be taking. The huge argument has arisen over


what the age is of some of the ones coming in. Is this another problem


for the Home Office? To some extent. Didn't Theresa May 's too well to


survive six weeks of this? Amber Rudd has been there for three


months. It is clear that the Home Office didn't prepare for this. They


didn't prepare for the age verification or when it will go It


needs to be an perfect. We don't know how many we will take, because


the Home Office will not say. I want to talk about airport capacity, but


I won't, because I don't think we have anything to say about it until


the statement on Tuesday from Transport Minister Grayling. When


you look at the polls and see the decision on airport runway expansion


being kicked into the long grass for a year, are we heading for an early


election next year or not? I think Theresa May will do everything she


can to avoid it. If there is an election before 2020, it is bound to


be about Europe, and that is a much harder case for her to win than just


a question of who is the best Prime Minister. She will have a tough


time, because it will be a general election about in or out of the


single market. Half of her party will peel away. How do she conduct a


general election when the likes of Anna Soubry will not stand on the


same platform? It will be difficult. But she may reach such a stalemate


that she just calls one. No general election next year because it will


split the Tory party. There will be won in 2019 when she cannot get


Brexit through the House of Commons. You really can have too much of a


good thing. I just want to show a little clip of the former Shadow


Chancellor, Ed Balls, from Strictly last night. Let's just watch this.


There he is. Where is the hand? That is the


worrying bit! We will no longer be saying that Ed Balls is a safe pair


of hands! Can we agree on that? Remarkable that he was once the man


most feared by David Cameron! Labour leader 2021. He has hit popular


culture in the way that many few politicians do. Charm, gusto,


bravery, no worries about being embarrassed. All the things that you


don't like about being a politician. We have run out of time. You can get


it on social media. Jo Coburn will be back


with the Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here next


Sunday at the same time. Remember if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics. Everyone's living these


amazing lives, You're like a...


Different person? Delve deeper.


Ordinary Lives continues... They have something on me


that I can actually remember. They have something on me


that I can actually remember. The final chapter between


Gibson and Spector.


Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by minister of state for international development Rory Stewart, shadow secretary of state for defence Nia Griffith and Paul Nuttall MEP. Political panellists include The Sun's Tom Newton Dunn, The Guardian's Polly Toynbee and The Spectator's Toby Young.

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