23/10/2016 Sunday Politics West

There's another candidate in the race to become Ukip's next

leader: Suzanne Evans, the party's former deputy chairman,

This man might have something to say about that.

Paul Nuttal was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years.

So is he now ready to throw his hat in the ring?

The battle for Mosul: the Iraqi army and its allies advane

on the country's second city which has been in the hands of

But what will be the fallout from this key clash?

In the West: The Stroud mum behind Momentum Kids.

They hit back at claims that their brand of

political childcare is creating a generation of tiny Trots.

one of the richest cities in the world. Should all private landlords

be licensed to help tackle the squalor?

And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

panel in the business: Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn -

The last leader was in the job a mere 18 days before she decided

The favourite to succeed her then quit the party after a now infamous

Ukip's biggest donor says the party is at "breaking point".

This morning, the former Deputy Chairman, Suzanne Evans,

announced that she would be running for the leadership.

I've thought long and hard about this leadership bid,

and one of the reasons I've perhaps delayed announcing it is

because I wanted to be absolutely sure that I had the support

And I can confirm that I have more than enough signatures

on the nomination form already to be able to go forward.

Let's not forget that 3,000 people signed a petition in support of me

I know head office was besieged with letters in support.

I would not be doing this if I didn't have the backing

of our members, because our members are the most important

Well, Paul Nuttall was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years

and plenty of people saw him as a leader-in-waiting.

Let's ask the man himself - Paul Nuttall joins me now.

Yes. I've made the decision that I'm going to put my name forward to be

the next leader of Ukip. I have huge support across the country, not only

amongst people at the top of the party in Westminster and with the

MEPs, but also the grassroots. I want to be the unity candidate. Ukip

needs to come together. I'm not going to gild the lily. Ukip is

looking over a political cliff at the moment. It will either step four

step back, and I want to tell us to step backwards. You say it faces an

ex-distension or threat, which means it's possible it has no future at

all. Students of political history know that political parties take a

long time to get going. They can disappear pretty quickly. Ukip is

facing an existential crisis. What happened over the summer has put us

on a... We could be on a spiral that we can't get off. But I believe I am

the man to bring the factions together, to create unity within the

party, and to build on the structure and get us ready for the common

challenges. Why didn't you stand last time? Because I have spent the

last four or five years of my life travelling around the country. I

have done more Ukip meetings than anybody else, spending a lot of time

away from home. With Brexit, I felt that my job and Nigel's job was done

and we could hand over to the next generation. That doesn't seem to be

the case, and maybe it's time for someone who is an old hand. I'm very

experienced and I know the party inside out. Maybe it's time to step

in and bring the party together You told the Liverpool Echo on the night

of July that you didn't wish to take on Nigel Farage, you didn't want

that to happen to your family and friends. What has changed? The party

is facing an existential crisis and I want to make sure that Ukip is on

the pitch to keep the ball into the open net we have in politics. We

have a Conservative Party who is moving toward Brexit, but we have to

be there too. Why would you be better than Suzanne Evans? Suzanne

would be an excellent candidate I thought the 2015 manifesto was the

best out of all the political parties. I would be the best

candidate because of my experience. I am not part of any faction within

the party. Is she? I get on well with everybody, and I believe I

could be the man to bring the party together. Do you get on with Iain

Banks, -- Aaron Banks, who is supporting one of your rivals? Yes,

I get on well with him. He is able to choose whoever he wants to be the

next leader of the party. After November 28, the leadership

election, we all say, the past the past. It becomes Daisy row for the

new leader. We forget all that has before and move on. You won the

referendum. Mrs May is adopting some of your policies, like grammar

schools. What is the point of Ukip these days? Twofold. We don't have

Brexit. Mrs May said she would not invoke Article 50 until the end of

March, and we don't know if that will happen. We need to ensure a

strong Ukip to make sure that Brexit really does mean Brexit. We have a

huge opportunity in working class communities where the Labour Party

no longer represents them. I believe Ukip can become the voice of working

people. If you were the leader, would Ukip be a bigger threat to

Labour in the north or the Tories in the South? You save Labour in the

north, and people often to make that mistake. There's working class

communities right across the country is. There are working-class

communities in Bristol just as in Newcastle. We are second in a

number of northern seats, and southern seats as well, and I

believe the party can move into these communities. It can only do so

if Ukip is on the pitch, and I intend to make sure that's the case.

I don't think we have portrayed a good image over the summer. Is that

called British understatement? A bit. It is dysfunctional. We have to

move on beyond Nigel Farage. We have to build a strong national Executive

Committee. We need to ensure our branches are ready for the fight and

concentrate on local elections. I've got the experience. I'm now throwing

my hat into the ring, and I'm the only person who can keep Ukip in the

game. What role would you give Nigel Farage, if any? I will be the

candidate of compromise. I would see what Nigel wanted to do. Would you

keep in the leader of the freedom and democracy group in the European

Parliament? There would have to be compromise on both sides, and we

would need to talk about it. I don't know what Nigel wants to do. Do you

think his support, his association with Donald Trump, helps Ukip win

female votes in this country? Personally, I would not have gone

out and campaigned or said anything about Donald Trump, but I don't

think Ukip has come out and backed Donald Trump 100%. Personally, I

wouldn't have even spoken about the American election, because I think

the two candidates are quite appalling. Some up for us. If you

win, what would be the hallmark of your Ukip leadership? The first

couple of months would be ensuring that Ukip unifies. Saying no to

factions, bringing people together. Suzanne Evans, Nigel Farage, all of

the MEPs, and ensuring that Ukip can move forward. If we don't unify

Ukip will not be around for much longer. Thanks for being with us

this morning. We won't have to wait too long

to find out who Ukip's new leader will be -

the winner will be announced Who would be the best leader for

Ukip? I think the difference between the field a few weeks ago and today

is that this field is a lot stronger. Whether it's Paul or

Suzanne, I think... It is hard to say, with Aaron Banks and apparently

Nigel Farage hacking another candidate, Raheem, but I want Ukip

to be a strong force in British politics. I think the fact there is

a stronger field now is good news for Ukip. Is it a Labour's worst

nightmare in the north of England? It is. I think the personality

difference and presentational difference is interesting. Suzanne

Evans is going for the Conservative county vote. There's a lot to be

taken there by Ukip. He would probably be more appealing to the

Labour vote. It is interesting. At the moment, pollsters say that the

Ukip vote splits pretty easily between Labour and Tory. But things

always collapse. When they have made inroads into Tower Hamlets and

Barking, they collapse, because they fight amongst each other so much.

But not always with fists! Does Ukip have a future? And who would best

secure that future? It does for at least two years, until we Brexit. We

have to believe that that will happen. That was an impressive pitch

there from Paul, certainly as the unity candidate, after the car crash

we have seen on TV screens this morning. But it doesn't go beyond

May 20 19. What then? There is no point being called the United

Kingdom Independence party any longer. What will happen after May

2019? If you want to hoover up votes of the back of Brexit, you need to

start looking further ahead than two years. The person who wins that

leadership contest is the person who will sum that up the best. We shall

see. In June 2014, the group which calls

itself the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant captured Iraq's

second city, Mosul. Later that month the group announced

it was establishing a 'caliphate', or an Islamic state,

on the territories it This week 30,000 Iraqi troops, aided

by Iranian-backed Shia fighters Kurdish Peshmerga and Western air

support, began the assault Then they spot a truck bomb

from so-called Islamic State. They destroy it before

it destroys them. These are the first steps

in the battle for Mosul, the Northern Iraqi city IS has

made its stronghold since 2014. Controlling the city of around

2 million people means that they established governance,

they establish a territorial base. This is what has obsessed everyone,

because with a territorial base you are capable of doing more

than if you are simply an insurgency movement in the fabric

of another society. It's being billed as the biggest

military operation in Iraq since the war in 2003, the biggest

moment in the international effort Here is how the various forces

are approaching the city. Heading to Mosul from the south

the elite troops of the Iraqi army. Known as the Golden division,

trained and accompanied From the North, a force made up

of Kurds, known as the Peshmerga, Also from the South,

a militia made up of Shia fighters who have been accused

of human rights abuses. British planes have bombed outlying

villages, reportedly guided in by British personnel

on the ground. To the North West, a corridor

has been left for some of the 3000 plus IS fighters,

in theory an escape route which could limit the bloodshed

when fighting starts in the city. We've had 4-5 days of battle

and it's taking place in the outlying villages

and there have been some successes and some failures,

but the momentum is building. And the real question will be

when the attackers get towards the city itself,

how strong are the defences? It will crack but it might crack

within 48 hours or 2-3 weeks. IS has fought back,

on Friday they attack sites in the city of Kirkuk,

including a power station. The United Nations believes hundreds

of thousands of families have been rounded up

as potential human shields. The battle could be bloody,

but what about when it's over? The Shia militias, the Iraqi army,

the Peshmerga guerrillas, some of the Turkish elements,

they all want a share of the action. They are in Mosul, not

for altruistic reasons. They are there because they want

to be part of whatever happens next. The biggest issue is how the Sunni

majority in Mosul reacts to the Shia militias which have

helped to liberate them. ARCHIVE FOOTAGE: When Sir Francis

Humphrey went to Mosul If it all seems like something

from the archive, when the Middle East went up in flames

and was then carved up, it is because that is what is

happening in Iraq right now. National identity has been cut

across by other identities such And that means that putting together

a so-called nation state again Almost certainly there will be

a new form of Kurdish state, almost certainly in northern Iraq

at the end of this crisis, and what is happening in Mosul

is a microcosm of what is happening elsewhere across the Levant

which is that it is melting down. Big questions, questions that

come after the battle. The coalition forces are advancing

but this is just the beginning. I'm joined now by the International

Development Minister Rory Stewart. In a former life he was

the coalition Deputy-Governor of two provinces in Southern Iraq following

the Iraq intervention of 2003. Is there any doubt that at some

stage Mosul will fall to the forces of Iraq and its allies? The first

thing is that war is very uncertain and there are cliches about it being

the graveyard of predictions and we don't want to make confident

predictions but the basic structure is that there are 30,000 Iraqi

forces outside and only a few thousand Daesh fighters inside and I

would say it is overwhelmingly likely that the batter will one

STUDIO: -- the battle the won by the Iraqi forces.

June 2014 was a great success, they took a city of over in people and

they created what they tried to create a million state of 7 million

people, stretching across the Iraqi Syrian border, but since then they

have lost territory quite rapidly. Now they are losing the outskirts of

Mosul, and that is a fundamental blow. Islamic State is all about

territory and holding state, that is what makes it different from

Al-Qaeda. If they lose Mosul that will be a cynic -- significant blow

to their credibility. Hillary Clinton said on Wednesday's

presidential debate that when Iraqi forces with their allies including

the United Kingdom gain control of Mosul they should continue to press

into Syria to take back Raqqa which is the de facto capital of the

caliphate, what is left of it, do we want Iraqi forces to pursue IS into

Syria? Very important question. Delayed in Raqqa needs to come from

people on the Syrian side of the border and that is an important

principle -- the lead. In the end of that enemy, Islamic State, is a

common enemy for odd members of the coalition including the Iraqi

government. -- all members. There is likely to be a humanitarian crisis

especially if it ends up with street to street fighting and IS are

difficult to dislodge what are we doing about that? We are doing very

detailed scenario planning. It is very uncertain what the scenario

will be but much investment has gone into creating a network of camps,

refugees STUDIO: Refugee camps around cash refugee camps, and that

is where money, British money, 40 million has gone recently into

supporting that, especially in terms of medical support to people. The

United nation's emergency response budget is ?196 million but only one

third funded which sounds like we are putting up a big chunk of what

is already being funded. Why is that? The international committee

can't say they haven't seen this assault coming, and the humanitarian

fallout they may see from it. You are absolutely right. We have seen

it coming and we have been planning since debris and we have put in

about ?167 million into this -- planning since February. There has

been a change in the nature of the appeal, and if there is a lag in the

accounting of it, but the money we need at this stage is in place and

we do have the support structure in place for those refugees. You are

right the United Nations is continuing with its appeal and is

asking for more money at the moment. The converse magazine wrote this

week that preparations for a big exodus of people leaving the city

have been made -- Economist magazine. But confidence is not high

in the preparations, is that a unfair conclusion? If you can

imagine the different scenarios it could be a few thousand and it could

be a few hundred thousand coming out of the city through a front line

where the war is going on, that is very difficult. You have to screen

those people and disarm them, and keep families together, and

transport them and you have to bring them into the refugee camps. The

people working on this have been working on this for long time, we

have mapped the different routes we have good camp infrastructure in

place and we have people who have worked in south to dam and other

areas who are putting their structures in place -- South Sudan.

It is never easy but I think we have done everything we can in the

preparation for this. What is the British role in what will probably

be an even bigger issue, assuming that Mosul is liberated and retaken,

the humanitarian crisis is dealt with, what role will we play in the

rebuilding of Mosul? That will be crucial to the future of Iraq, the

second-biggest city and it will need to be rebuilt. It will need to be

rebuilt as a community as well as bricks and mortar. And eight Sunni

community that is not harassed by the Shia. -- and eight. You are

right. One of the core drivers is that the Sunni community felt

excluded and they did not feel they have the trust from the Baghdad

government. A lasting solution is stopping some of Islamic State

coming back, that involves making sure the Sunni community have a

stake in their future. That is making sure that the governing

structures are in place. The UK s response is twofold, we have got to

get the humanitarian aid right, that is the short term, people who might

be malnourished, coming out of the front line. The second thing is

working with the Iraqi government to make sure that as we rebuild Mosul

we do so in a way that that population feels a connection to the

Iraqi state. Islamic State is losing territory everywhere in the Levant,

it is almost finished in Iraq, we think. It is down to one district in

Libya, as well, just one small part of the town. I suppose the risk is,

if life is becoming more difficult across these areas, it can start to

look more in Europe and the United Kingdom as a place to continue its

terrorist attacks? That is a real danger. You are right. This is a

group which has proved over the last five years very unpredictable and it

changes for it quickly full stop often it does unexpected things In

2009 its predecessor had been largely wiped out in Iraq and when

it was under pressure in Syria it went back into Iraq, and in the past

it didn't hold territory but now it holds territory, so you are right.

There is a serious risk that as it gets squeezed in the middle East it

will try to pop up somewhere else and Mac could include Europe and the

United States -- that could. They say that is something they have

focused on full stop we also have a big focus on counterterrorism

security and making sure that we keep the United Kingdom and Europe

say. One final question. -- say -- safe. Maybe events in Mosul could

add to the migration crisis in Europe, is that a possibility?

Again, you are right, we have seen in Syria it can push migration, the

biggest push the migration was the conflict in Syria, and that's the

reason why we have but so much energy into getting those refugee

camps in place and getting the humanitarian response in place -

put so much energy. People will want to remain in their homes, this is

their country, but we have got to make it possible for them and that

means in the short term looking after their shelter and in the

medium to long-term making sure they have livelihoods, jobs and an

economic development which is why our support in Iraq is in the UK

National interests because it deals with these issues of migration and

terrorists. Thanks for joining us. I'm joined now by the Shadow Defence

Secretary. Does Labour support British

participation in this offensive We fully support the participation in

this offensive, extremely important move forward and we voted for this

back in 2014. We are asking the government question is, of course, I

was asking the Secretary of State this week about this very offensive

but we are fully behind our RAF pilots out there and be trading that

has been going on to help the forces on the ground. -- the training full

stop that is very clear. I wonder if you'll lead it shares that clarity

and that position. -- is your leader. This is what Jeremy Corbyn

has said. What's been done in Iraq

is done by the Iraqi government, and currently

supported by the British government. I did not support it

when it came up. Well, I'm not sure how successful

it's been, because most of the action now appears to be

moving in to Syria, so I think we He doesn't sound very supportive.

The issue about Mosul, it has been very carefully prepared as Rory

Stewart said and I hope we have learned the lessons from previous

offensives where we haven't learnt sufficiently, and that is going to

be crucial in this context. How the aftermath is going to be dealt with.

Of course will stop that clip was from November last year, and things

have changed. Two weeks ago he told the BBC" I'm not sure it is

working", in reference to air strikes in Iraq, but it is working.

We have got to see what happens in Mosul, it is a very high-risk

operation, but we also have to face the fact that the people there are

living under tyranny at the moment. We have to ask very cirrus question

shall stop he says he's not sure it is working, when Mosul is the last

major target be cleared of Islamic State in Iraq. The combination of

Allied air power has worked, why is he not sure it is working? Because

we have seen difficulties in the past. But this was two weeks ago. It

is essential that the work is done, both planning for the refugees as

Rory Stewart referred to, but also in terms of reconstruction of the

city and its community as you mentioned. These are vital. This was

about the ability to make progress with Allied air power, special

forces in Iraq, on the ground, do you accept so far that has a

strategy that seems to be working to read Iraq of Islamic -- to read Iraq

of Islamic State the question of the car began placement. Ulloa -- we

can't be complacent. The problems they are creating where ever they

are urged that we must continue to pursue them. This is the first time

we have spoken to since you have become the Shadow Defence Secretary.

I hope we will have a longer interview. Will Labour's next

manifesto include a commitment to the renewal of Trident? It will We

made that commitment in 2007, that is a firm commitment and we will

honour that to our coalition allies and our industrial partners and that

is the vote which was taken democratically and repeatedly has

been reaffirmed by Labour conference and we are a democratic party vote

up you have squared that with Jeremy Corbyn? He's in favour of democracy

and he understands the situation, but we also want to push for the UK

to play a much bigger role on the international stage on multilateral

disarmament talks. You were very clear there, I thank you for that.

Support for Trident will be in the next Labour manifesto. What has

happened to Labour's review of Trident policy? That review has been

taking place over the year, we had a very clear reaffirmation in the

conference boat this year, we are reaffirming our commitment to

Trident -- vote. The review can t change that? There is a process of

review and a fair number of issues related to defence, all parties do

this. Of course. The review can t change the commitment to Trident? We

are not changing the commitment to Trident. Russia is now the main

strategic threat to this country? It is a major strategic threat and we

have got to work with our Nato allies very closely and make sure

that we respond and that we do not let things pass. For example, we

should be calling out Russia for the way it has been a bombing

humanitarian aid and we should be taking them to international court

over this, but we should also be strengthening sanctions, somewhat

imposed over Ukraine. We try to do that, but the Italians wouldn't let

us. The Italians did not want to participate in the European

initiative but that doesn't stop individual countries for the Britain

should step up? Yes, we should look at what is practical to impose.

Thanks for joining us. Mosul is not the only major battle

being waged in the Middle East. The city of Aleppo in northern Syria

has seen some of the heaviest bombardment since Syria's

five-year-long civil war began. This week Russian warships,

in a deliberate show of power, sailed west through the English

channel en route to Syria. Nato says it's Russia's "largest

surface deployment" since the end of the Cold War in what is thought

to be preparation for a final assault

on the besieged city of Aleppo. In the city itself fighting

resumed overnight - following a 3-day ceasefire -

with more air strikes and heavy clashes in the city's

rebel-held eastern districts. Almost 500 people have been

killed and 2,000 injured since Syrian government forces,

backed by Russian air strikes, This week Theresa May condemned

Vladimir Putin's involvement in Syria, accusing Moscow

of being behind "sickening atrocities" in support

of President Assad's regime. But European leaders are divided

on how to respond and, with the United States preoccupied

with domestic politics, President Putin senses this

is his moment to bring the Syrian I'm joined now by the BBC's former

Diplomatic and Moscow Correspondent, Bridget Kendall, who is now Master

of Peterhouse College in Cambridge. Welcome. Good to see you in the BBC

studio again. Let me put up this satellite image of Aleppo here, to

get an idea of the scale. It was the biggest city in Syria. It was the

commercial capital and a huge cultural hub as well. Almost the New

York of Syria, to give you an idea of its significance to the country.

Let me show you now how it's been divided. The rebels are now in

control of the eastern part, about eight miles long and three miles

wide there, they're in purple. They are under great attacks still. Is it

inevitable that that purple part falls to the regime? That is what

President as Saad, the Russians and the Iranians hope. The fierce

bombardments we have seen is part of that. I'm reminded very much in the

Russian tactics of what happened in grudgingly in Chechnya in 2000, when

the Russians said, a warning for all civilians to lead, and then they

went ahead and they basically raised it to the ground. They are talking

about Al Nusrah as being one of the rebel groups. They got rid of all of

the terrorists. They talk about it being an Al-Qaeda offshoot. The

purpose of going in is to get rid of them. You get the civilians out and

then you take it. But this isn't like Chechnya. It is much more

complex. We have seen an attempt to take Aleppo before, and then there

was a rebel counter offensive. It's not so certain. And there are so

many different parties involved We have seen the alarm in the west of

the extent of the civilian casualties. There have been

rumblings in the west of, shouldn't the United States do something?

Shouldn't they stop the Syrian air force? This Russian aircraft carrier

steaming its way towards the Eastern Mediterranean is a symbolic gesture,

both to its own people, but also to the West, to say, don't get involved

in Aleppo if we go ahead. Don't try and stop us because we could up the

ante. They have not been great visual pictures, because the

aircraft carrier looks a bit clapped out, belching out smoke! If the

rebel controlled area does fall it would be seen as a great victory for

President as Saad and his Russian allies. What is the aim of Russia

here? What would they then do, if Aleppo Falls? It is part of a plan

that President Putin set out in his UN speech in 2014, before Russia

went into Syria. The aim is to put President Assad back in charge.

President Putin said this weekend that either is Assad in Damascus, or

its Al Nusrah. There is nothing in between. They want to eliminate the

argument for a moderate opposition. They want to make it plain that the

only way to get a stable Syria is to have Assad back in charge. Even sue

argue for a rump steak lit, leaving aside what is happening with IAS.

They have already said they want to have an enlarged military presence

at their bases. And they have a big naval base. It is. It is a chance to

push for this when he sees the West is being distracted and divided

Europe and America, by elections and so on. Just before the US elections.

The Americans are worried about that, Europeans are being distracted

by Brexit. He can push to his maximum advantage now, before there

is a new US president. If they do take that part of Aleppo, and that

part of northern Syria, does Mr Putin want us to recognise, to

admit, that that is now his sphere of influence? I think the rhetoric

from the Russians is that they want the West to recognise that they are

an equal powerful partner. It's not just the US that runs the writ in

the Middle East. Russia is as important as it is. It is engaging

with Saudi Arabia and has mended fences with Turkey. Syria is the

place from which it can launch its message that it is a big player in

the Middle East. Russia wants the West to understand that this isn't a

country that was dismembered after the end of the Soviet Union and is

now a week. It is back, and it is strong. That is an important

message. Looking at the economy It is in recession. GDP has been

falling, partly because of the price of oil. It is highly dependent on

hydrocarbons, and is expected to fall again. Its people are falling

again. People don't realise how small the Russian economy is. Its

GDP is about the size of Italy's. It is smaller than the UK economy.

Bigger than it was 15 or 20 years ago. But so is Britain's does it

help to take people's mind of this? A huge shock to the Russian economy

was a drop in the price of oil and a price of gas. A drop in the price of

the ruble as well. This is hurting the people of Russia. On the one

hand, it is the war in Syria, which is very important for Russia to sort

out that part of the world and dispensed terrorists who might be

danger to -- is dangerous to Russia. But he had also has presidential

election is going up. They are supposed to be 2018, but some feel

he will bring them forward to 2 17, because the economy is not doing so

well. But you need a good story for the Russian people. Thank you very

much. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to

Sunday Politics here in the West. Coming up: When politics

is child's play. We hear from one of the founders

of Momentum Kids which organises activities for children

with a political flavour. They'll respond to claims that

they're making a generation of mini I'm joined by two grown-ups

with youngsters of their own. It's a Coalition pairing just

like the old times. Conservation group leader

on Bristol City Council Mark Weston and for the Lib Dems,

their general election candhdate for Kingswood when the election

comes, Carole Wilkinson. Let's start with the

by-election in Whitney. Are you shocked or surprised

by the Lib Dem's surge? I have to confess to being puite

happy with the result. When David Cameron first won

the seat he won with 45% of the vote We've been in government for six

years and we won it So, from a Conservative point

of view I'm quite happy. But the Lib Dems had a pretty good

result and bucked the trend Our vote's been going up

across the country. Partly they ran an excellent

campaign and got stuck into that. The other thing I think is people

are really very worried about what is going on with Brexit,

about noises they're hearing It will be interesting

to see what happens Do you think it's a sign th`t people

don't want a hard Brexit? I don't think you can read too much

into a single by-election. There needs to be a much wider

sampling of the vote. I think one of the problems we have

with Brexit is we need more information but it's a complicated

negotiations so the information But I'm happy with the result

and glad I'm not in Ukip's shoes. OK, even though you lost

a lot of support. How's this for a solution

to the financial woes faced by some A big one-off leap in counchl tax

without restrictions. That is what Swindon is doing

with a catch, you have to create a whole new layer

of local government. They've cut and cut and cut,

but now Swindon Borough Council wants to hand over jobs likd grass

cutting to parish councils. There aren't any in most of the town

so three would be created. They could then add a chargd

to council tax bills, perhaps ? 5. We're facing unprecedented budget

pressures and we are facing unprecedented pressure

on our services for vulnerable That squeezes in important local

services, like street cleanhng and grass cutting and looking

after children's playgrounds. This allows us to ring fencd that

money and provide the It was backed by the ruling

Conservative cabinet and there was much talk

of the rising cost of social services and falling

funding from Whitehall. But that may not mean much

to the 130,000 residents We pay a lot of money

out and they don't do It seems to be an excuse

to put everything up It's bad isn't it because wd pay

enough now for different thhngs It is also being

considered in Bristol. At present, it has no town or parish

councils in contrast As people in Bristol want to know

what it's like to have an extra local council all they need to do

is cross the city boundary. Although it is part of urban

South Gloucestershire, It's interesting to

compare it to Kingswood. Kingswood is a suburb that's also

part of South Gloucestershire but it Filton has a leisure centre

and so does Kingswood. They have similar facilities and,

yes, both have playgrounds though the town council boasts

that they have rather You're saying people in Filton

get better facilities No, I think just maybe

we get a bum deal. Yes, because these things are extra

and this is why our services are a bit higher than counchls

nearby because they don't h`ve Filton's ?190 council tax charge

also funds offices and staff. Councillors themselves aren't paid,

but holding elections aren't cheap The problem is getting

people to do it. We struggle here quite often to be

quorate at meetings because it's Back in Swindon like in Swindon

dozens of new councillors whll be needed if the plan gets a fhnal

go-ahead next month. Joining me is David Reynard,

the leader of Swindon The plan is to complete this

patchwork of parish councils and, therefore, you will be able to say

to the parish councils, Half of Swindon is parished

half isn't in Swindon, mainly for historical reasons,

but we want to extend the bdnefits It would give local

residents more choice over And less choice over

how much cash they pay? You quoted ?75, but I represent

and live in a parished area and pay ?35 a year and I get really good

services for that money. What many people may suspect is that

council spending is tight so you devolve it to parish level

and there is no cap That is true but the governlent

is consulting on that. And we're already doing that

with existing parishes. So it's a way of getting more money

out of the tax taxpayer? No, it's about protecting

services people value. If they stay with the borough

council, more of our money hs going on adult and children social care,

therefore there will be less to pay Actually, it's about raising

extra revenue as well? You are on Bristol City Council

would you support parishes springing No, I must confess

to not being a fan. As David said, half of their

residents are already in parishes. In Bristol, it's a new structure

for everybody and I must confess to being nervous about sudddnly

having additional As far as I see it, I would end up

paying for another level of I'm slightly concerned that some

of the wealthier areas of the city would be able to have a fairly low

charge to do what they want and the poorer areas

can least afford it. It would be up to each individual

parish council to decide wh`t level of services they want to provide

and we have that in Swindon. Are you putting up the council tax

by the maximum you can each year? We are, as I think you'll fhnd

all top tier councils are doing You're a former parish

councillor, aren't you? This has come about because of

severe cuts in government ftnding In South Gloucestershire,

they had to take ?38 million a year out of the budget announced

an additional 40 million. Bristol council had to get rid

of 1,000 jobs in a month As a parish councillor,

do you support it? Parish councils are extremely

valuable where the people involved are engaged and represent

a whole load of different people in the community

add a constructive. Some parish councils

don't function very well. It's all about the people you can

get on board and moving forward OK, other cities miss out bx not

having local representation that There is a difference betwedn places

which are in cities and havd a good At the moment, parish counchls

are being asked to do things like fund all the things

which the council used to ftnd before and if they don't find

it, who does? It doesn't have to just

be parish councillors! Let us talk about the bigger issue

of council tax rises. Bristol has announced

cuts to services to come and still the council tax

going up by 4% a year over That's a tremendous amount

of money, isn't it? We have a particular demogr`phic

with more older people. So, you support the mayor's plan

to put up the council tax? We're still in consultation

so I can't commit, but I can understand the reasons why

you'd have to do it. And 4% a year is going to bd

a couple of hundred quid, isn't it? Theresa May talks about hard-working

families not losing out but that's a weekend away or a holiday perhaps

in five years' time? As Conservatives, we're keen to keep

tax as low as possible, but Mark is right, the incrdase

in the number of elderly who need care and support,

the number of young people By 2020, we anticipate that 80%

of our budget will be spent on supporting vulnerable people

and that is the challenge. Few political ideas have catsed

delight and derision in such equal At its heart it's about combining

childcare with politics, but some believe more sinister

motives are at play. Robin Markwell takes up a t`le that

began in Gloucestershire. Once upon a time in the land not

so far-away, there lived a lan One day the people who really

liked him and wanted him to be Prime Minister

held a big conference. But they found talking

about politics whilst looking after their children hard

so they formed a childcare group It's immediately clear wherd

the founder of momentum kids lives, from the sign on the window

to the banner in the front room This is apolitical household

and this Stroud mum wants From asking them what poliches their

teddy bear should be championing... The teddy bear has a whole list

of ideas about how the teddx bear ..to word searches with

a radical bent. We've got words here

like equality, state, love. You don't often see that

in a child's word search! But Momentum Kids, to put it mildly,

has not been without its crhtics. From being lampooned on sochal media

- in this case D is for desdlection They've even seized the nurseries,

too, opening branches of Molentum Or my particular

favourite, Tiny Trots. I don't think people are re`lly

getting why we're doing this. It was about inclusion

and about making our lives lore interesting and better

and bringing our families There is an element

of indoctrination of childrdn They are shown adverts,

pink for girls in blue for boys They are constantly

being marketed to. We're trying to create an atmosphere

for children to be curious I'm not particularly interested

in my children being mini Corbynistas because,

quite frankly, in 20 years when they're out doing thei

grass roots activism, The aim is to roll this out

nationwide and that evening we were given a sneak previdw of how

it might work. At a gym in Swindon

they held a trial session, Tell me when the bad guy

is about to grab you. The lesson here was

about empowerment. And while inside they learn

to deal with an attack... It meant the mums could go outside

and talk politics with a sm`ll P. Children are a lot more savvy today

with what's going on. Certainly more so than

I was at that age. It's fun, challenging and vdry

improving on our skills. And you get too big to mum

up as well? It's trying to get kids

to be more listened I'm interested in politics

and I think that maybe bringing politics to children

might be a bit useful. So, is this a bid to create

the Corbyn street fighters of tomorrow or a movement

to be applauded? Getting more youngsters

to grapple with politics. Joining us now is Natasha

who you saw in that film. Welcome and we saw your delhghtful

children. Do they go on strike

for more pocket money? It's all about bribery

with kids, isn't it? Is it indoctrination or is ht common

sense and fun? It's like I said in the clip just

then, children are indoctrinated. We're talking about questioning

curious children and whilst we ,as activists, are going out

and having meetings, whether it's Labour Party

meetings at seven o'clock when I want to put the kids to bed,

or Momentum activism, there is a platform that's

completely inclusive. Momentum is regarded

as being on the left of Labour and if there were a group

on the right of the Conserv`tives for young kids telling them

about immigration and self-reliance and that sort of stuff,

what would you say about th`t? I think to a certain extent people

are missing the point with what we're trying to do

because yes there are children's activities but actually

the most important thing If we're talking about a group

like Momentum who are opening out to so many people,

20,000 members, we're talking about inclusion,

equality and diversity and hn order to do that you have two provide

support for everybody. As a mum what I wanted to do

was start something that made it easy for people

like me, actually. OK, let us bring

in our other guests. You're from the group called

the Parents' Union, is Do you think it's right for mums

and dads to have time out and for the kids to get somd sort

of political awareness? For parents, like you say,

it's getting women into polhtics... I have three kids and it's

been really difficult. Luckily mine are getting older

but I would have thought I think there's no harm whatsoever

in children being told it's fine to question the status quo

and asking questions and becoming aware of issues because children

are affected by politics evdry day. Do their parents have

to pay for the school bus? What did they teach

you at Lib Dem school? Probably from my own perspective,

because I don't come from a political family,

when I was a kid we went to Sunday school creche

and then Sunday school. I've grown up and made

my own decisions. Have you stuck with those

Sunday school views? I coloured in pictures of prophets

and Jesus but I certainly don't We want people to be

involved in politics. I think probably the word sdarch

with "Unionise" has allowed what they're trying

to do to come into it. If "Capitalism" is the next word I'm

sure it will be fine! Children are susceptible

to a lot of things and that impression and influence coles

from all manner of directions. In politics we're trying

keep that balance. If nothing else, they will rebel

against us horribly in later life. You might find yourself

with rebellious children. We would welcome them

to the fold, of course! Childhood is probably one

of the least democratic timds Your parents always

tell you what to do. How do you get from that to sending

them out into the world as electorates, they will bd voting,

to question and think about what they want

in a political party? And what they can do

to change the world. You don't have to worry

about those things. You've got years to be concdrned

with grown-up issues. You need space just to play

and have fun. Actually, if you have been

to our Facebook page and sedn some of the placards the children did,

own their own, "Proper jobs There are already thinking

about this stuff. And you take them to

demonstrations as well? We would like our members

to have a presence there so there is a safe place for families to come

and share their feelings. We have no minimum age

of membership. I see no problem with that `nd it

if it helps carers... Are children naturally soci`list,

do you think? I don't know if it's

socialism or capitalism. I don't think it's defined

as an ideology which is why if we talking about education it has

to be a balanced approach I'm fully fearful that mine

will rebel hard and join With news of defections and Brexit

themed Christmas card here's a round-up in 60 seconds and this

week it is by Robin. The Swindon Labour councillor

performed a double He decided to join the Torids

as he was unhappy with Jerely Corbyn and then he rejoined Labour claiming

he'd made a mistake. Nick Clegg said his

door was always open. He can always try the Lib Ddms

and make it a hat-trick. The NHS trusts in Gloucestershire

and Cheltenham was placed After months of doubt,

Somerset is a 303 will be We are right to invest in pdak

infrastructure like the A303. And if it ever to early to talk

Christmas? We are very humorous people and it's

not all doom and gloom. Campaign group Bristol for Durope

has launched a range of Brexit themed Christmas cards designed

to wish weaving remainders `re very And, on that festive note

we must leave it for today. My thanks to all my guests

were coming along to our sttdio We will be back next week,

but for now letters go back go ahead with this policy, I know.

And now back to Andrew. So, Brexit, airports,

Calais and the chances With what Rory Stewart was saying

there, it is clear that Islamic State is losing territory in Iraq

now, and could come under pressure in Syria as well. It used to control

a whole swathe of the coast of Libya, and is now down to a small

area of Sirte in Libya. But curiously, it could make them more

dangerous here if they are being driven out of the Maghreb and the

Levant, they could be more dangerous here. Discuss. That was a very

interesting admission from a government minister, of all people,

and a well-informed one. Chasing Isis around the Middle East is

about... Like chasing Al-Qaeda around Afghanistan and Pakistan You

smash them somewhere, and they pop up somewhere else. He is right to

warn that these guys will go somewhere. And it may well be, in

Sirte, for example, across the magic oration -- across the Mediterranean

into Italy. A lot of the foreign fighters in Mosul have already gone,

we heard, which raises the question, to where? I think it is quite right

for government ministers to warn that it might have repercussions

here. We have been involved in this, with full public consent, as far as

we can tell. If it doesn't happen, if there are horrors and outrages

here and in the rest of Europe, that's fine. If it does happen, at

least the government is prepared. We knew surprised about how categorical

Nia Griffith was? She was categorical about support for the

Allied action in Iraq, and categorical about Russia. So much so

that perhaps written should take tougher sanctions on its own, even

if it can't get the Europeans to fall in line. I found that

interesting. I was surprised by that. Tom may be right that Rory

said more than perhaps he was intending, but I thought that some

of what she said sounded politically imprudent in the current context of

the Labour Party. I'm not sure she cleared those lines with the Labour

office. I'm not sure she and Jeremy are in the same place about it. I'm

not sure there is that much leadership. People at the moment get

out there and say what they think it's right for the party. She

sounded dead right to me. Whether it is ill-advised or not, people should

answer... I want to move on, because Brexit never goes away. This week we

saw Hilary Benn, former Shadow Foreign Secretary. He is going to be

the chair of the select committee in the Commons which will monitor the

Department for Brexit. All sorts of people will be coming to give

testimony and so one. Let's hear what he told Andrew Marr.

I think it will be very important for the government to indicate that

if it is not possible within the two years provided for by Article 5

to negotiate both our withdrawal agreement and a new trading

relationship, market access, including for services,

80% of our economy, million jobs, in financial services,

that it should tell the House of Commons that it will seek

a transitional arrangement with the European Union.

If the deal is not done at the end of the two-year Article 50 process,

would the government go for an interim agreement, or would it fall

back on WTO, World Trade Organisation, Rawls? My

understanding is the article 15 negotiation doesn't specifically

include what Britain's future trading relationship with the EU

would be. It is perfectly possible that Article 50 could be triggered,

and after two years we don't have a trade deal, but the trade deal

negotiations are ongoing when we are outside the EU. But the trade deal

negotiations are the most important thing. If Article 50 doesn't cover

it, what is it about? Absolutely essential. The trade deal with

Canada has taken nine years, and now it looks like it is fading, because

of the Walloons. Just one small part of the country. If you cannot do a

free-trade deal with Canada, a progressive, social Democratic

Canada, who can the EU do a trade deal with? You would think it would

be easy with us, because we have all of the level playing field

agreements in place. You would hope it would be easier, but it may not

be, because in the end, it will hinge on the single market and if we

are in or out. If we are in, can we have a small break on immigration?

It looks like not. What is interesting about the opinion polls

is, in the last two opinion polls there was a significant change in

public opinion, where people are now saying they think that actually

trade, the economy, the single market is more important than

immigration. If it is really true, as the observer is reporting today,

that banks are on the move, and in a year's time there could be a

significant collapse in the income we get from finance, the income that

the Treasury gets, then public opinion might change. They may say,

we don't want more immigration, but this isn't a price worth paying

Everything tends to be seen through the Brexit lens at the moment.

Things are not always as they seem. The Canadian- EU free trade

agreement was about increasing free trade between the EU and Canada and

therefore subject to the ratification of all members. Any

deal we do will not give us the same access we have at the moment. The

question is, how much will it be diminished? It may not be subject to

the same ratification process. Absolutely right. Another

unbelievably technical point that we still don't know is, if we can get

this free-trade deal with the EU at the same time as our Brexit talks

and deal, the divorce deal as well as the remarriage deal, then one

gets signed off by QM V. The trade deal may still need all 28, all 27,

including the people from the Walloons. And the MEPs. The majority

of parliament. This is exactly why Theresa May would like the

transitional deal to push this one deeper. I was surprised to hear

Hilary Benn pushing this line this morning. The remainers have been all

over the place. They wanted a vote after Article 50 had been triggered

about the deal. Then they wanted a vote before Article 50. Now they are

talking about a vote before article Article 50 is triggered about a

trade deal. They need to make up their minds about what it is they

are pushing for, and what their best hope of obstructing Brexit is, and

stick with it. Something else we see through the Brexit lens, which isn't

always helpful, is Calais. The French bulldozers will move in

tomorrow. We will see some pretty disturbing scenes on the TV. We will

see some horrible scenes. The government has handled this very

badly. Having passed an amendment in April saying we would take something

like 3000 children, a lot of those children have disappeared. Save the

Children, one of the charities there, are very worried that people

traffickers have been in there, and a lot of those children have

vanished. We haven't sent social workers in. No preparations have

been made what ever. You are raising an interesting point. We don't know

how many we are meant to be taking. The huge argument has arisen over

what the age is of some of the ones coming in. Is this another problem

for the Home Office? To some extent. Didn't Theresa May 's too well to

survive six weeks of this? Amber Rudd has been there for three

months. It is clear that the Home Office didn't prepare for this. They

didn't prepare for the age verification or when it will go It

needs to be an perfect. We don't know how many we will take, because

the Home Office will not say. I want to talk about airport capacity, but

I won't, because I don't think we have anything to say about it until

the statement on Tuesday from Transport Minister Grayling. When

you look at the polls and see the decision on airport runway expansion

being kicked into the long grass for a year, are we heading for an early

election next year or not? I think Theresa May will do everything she

can to avoid it. If there is an election before 2020, it is bound to

be about Europe, and that is a much harder case for her to win than just

a question of who is the best Prime Minister. She will have a tough

time, because it will be a general election about in or out of the

single market. Half of her party will peel away. How do she conduct a

general election when the likes of Anna Soubry will not stand on the

same platform? It will be difficult. But she may reach such a stalemate

that she just calls one. No general election next year because it will

split the Tory party. There will be won in 2019 when she cannot get

Brexit through the House of Commons. You really can have too much of a

good thing. I just want to show a little clip of the former Shadow

Chancellor, Ed Balls, from Strictly last night. Let's just watch this.

There he is. Where is the hand? That is the

worrying bit! We will no longer be saying that Ed Balls is a safe pair

of hands! Can we agree on that? Remarkable that he was once the man

most feared by David Cameron! Labour leader 2021. He has hit popular

culture in the way that many few politicians do. Charm, gusto,

bravery, no worries about being embarrassed. All the things that you

don't like about being a politician. We have run out of time. You can get

it on social media. Jo Coburn will be back

with the Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here next

Sunday at the same time. Remember if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics. Everyone's living these

amazing lives, You're like a...

Different person? Delve deeper.

Ordinary Lives continues... They have something on me

that I can actually remember. They have something on me

that I can actually remember. The final chapter between

Gibson and Spector.