20/11/2016 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston hear from the candidates for the Ukip leadership and look ahead to the chancellor's Autumn Statement.

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Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.


Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving


the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?


Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime


The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending


on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be


Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.


In the West, inside Donald Trump 's private quarters. We catch tp with


one of the very in London: Is the battle for


Richmond Park based on the skies? Or is it about a bigger conflict in


Europe? And with me - as always -


and, no, these three aren't doing the Mannequin challenge -


it's our dynamic, demonstrative dazzling political panel -


Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be


tweeting throughout the programme. First this morning -


Theresa May has said "Brexit means Brexit" -


but can the Prime Minister - who was on the Remain side


of argument during the referendum Well, Leave-supporting Tory


MPs are re-launching the "European Research Group" this


morning to keep Mrs May's feet Are you worried that you cannot


trust Theresa May until payment to deliver full Brexit was Magellan


like I totally trust Theresa May, 100% behind her. She has displayed a


massive amount of commitment to making a success of Brexit for the


country. We don't know that yet, because


nothing has happened. Why, then have you formed a pressure group? We


were fed up with the negativity coming out around Brexit. I feel


positive about the opportunities we face, and we are a group to provide


suggestions. Who do you have in mind when you talk about negativity the


Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems, for example, from Labour MPs. This


is a pressure group for leaving membership of the single market and


customs union, correct? That is what we are proposing. It has a purpose


other than just to combat negativity. When it comes to


membership of the single market and the customs union, can you tell us


what Government policy is towards both or either? Rightly, the


Government hasn't made the position clear, and I think that is the right


approach, because we don't want to review our negotiating hand. What


we're saying... I'm not asking what you are saying. Can you tell us what


Government policy is towards membership of these institutions?


The Government wants to make sure British businesses have the right to


trade with EU partners, to forge new trade deals with the rest of the


world. We hope to Reza may speak at Mansion house this week. -- we had


Theresa May speak at Mansion house this week. She has been clear,


saying it was not a binary choice. And she's right. Let's run that


tape, because I want to pick up on what she did say. This is what she


had to say about the customs union at Prime Minister's Question Time.


On the whole question of the customs union, trading relationships that we


have with the European Union and other parts of the world once we


have left the European Union, we are preparing carefully for the formal


negotiations. We are preparing carefully for the formal


negotiations. We want to ensure we have the best possible trading deal


with the EU once we have left. Do you know what she means when she


says being in the customs union is not a binary choice? I think she's


right when she says that. At the moment, and you know this, as long


as we are in the customs union, we cannot set our own tariffs or rules,


cannot have a free trade agreement with the US or China. We need to


leave a customs union to do that. Binary means either you are in or


you are out, self which is it? We still want to trade with the EU and


I think we can have a free trade agreement with the EU. That is a


separate matter, and it has to do with the single market. What about


the customs union? We need to leave the customs union. We do it and


properly. That is how to get the most out of this opportunity. Summit


is a binary choice? The Prime Minister is right when she says it's


not a binary choice. Both can't be right. We can leave the customs


union, get their benefits, and have a free trade agreement with zero


tariffs with the EU. So it is a binary choice an either be stale


really. Yellow like I am saying the Prime Minister is right when she


says it is not a binary choice. -- I am saying the Prime Minister is


right. We need clarity. Youth had said -- you have said it is a binary


choice. We need to leave the constraints of the customs union. It


pushes up prices. The EU is not securing the right trade deals, and


if we want to make the most of it, we need to get out there and get


some deals going. Do you accept that if we remain in the customs union,


we cannot do our own free-trade deals? Yellow right 100%. That is


why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do you accept that if we leave the


customs union but stay with substantial access, I don't say


membership, but substantial access to the single market, that goods


going from this country to the single market because we're no


longer in the union will be subject to complicated rules of origin


regulations, which could cost business ?13 billion a year? I would


like to see a free-trade agreement between the UK and the EU. Look at


the Canadian deal. I give you that, but if we're not in the customs


union, things that we bring in on our own tariffs once we've left we


can't just export again willy-nilly to the EU. They will demand to see


rules of origin. Norway has to do that at the moment and it is highly


complicated expensive. I think if we agree a particular arrangement as


part of this agreement with the EU, we can reach an agreement on that


which sets a lower standard, which sets a different level of tariffs,


which protects some of our industries. Let's suppose we have


pretty much free trade with the EU but we are out of the customs union,


and let's suppose that the European Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese


whisky and we decide to have a % tariff - what then happens to the


whisky that comes into Britain and goes on to the EU? The EU will not


let that in. That will be part of the negotiation. I think there is a


huge benefit for external operators. Every bottle of Japanese whisky


they will have to work out the rules of origin. There have been studies


that show there is a potential for 50% increase in global product if we


leave. We're losing the benefits of free trade. I understand, I am


asking for your particular view Thank you for that.


Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could not bring himself to say we would


leave the customs union? It is messy. The reason there is this new


group of Tory MPs signing up to a campaign to make sure we get a


genuine Brexit is because there is this vacuum. It is being filled with


all sorts of briefing from the other side. There is a real risk in the


minds of Brexit supporting MPs that the remaining side are going to try


to hijack the process, not only through the Supreme Court action,


which I think most Brexit MPs seem to accept the appeal will fail, but


further down the line, through amendments to the great repeal bill.


This is a pressure group to try to hold the Prime Minister to account.


There is plenty of pressure on the Prime Minister effectively to stay


in the single market and the customs union, and if you do both of these


things, de facto, you have stayed in the EU. She is in a difficult


position because there is no good faith assumption about what Theresa


May wants because she was a Remainer. There is all this talk


about a transitional arrangement, but she can't sell that as someone


who voted to remain. The way Isabel has characterised it is interesting.


There is a betrayal narrative. Everyone is looking to say that she


has betrayed the true Brexit. Since the Government cannot give a clear


indication of what it once in terms of the customs union, which sets


external tariffs, or the single market, which is the free movement


of people, capital, goods and services, others are filling this


vacuum. Right. The reasons they can't do this are, first, they don't


know if they can get it or not. We saw this with the renegotiation the


last Prime Minister. What are they hoping to get? The world on a stick,


to get cake and eat it. You go into a negotiation saying, let's see what


we can get in total. Are they going to ask the membership of the single


market? Yellow I think they will ask for a free trade agreement involving


everything. You can demand what you want. The question is, do they stand


a cat's chance in hell of getting it? They don't know. Welcome back.


We will be back, believe me. It is 150 day since we found out the UK


had voted to leave the EU, but as we have heard, remain and leave


campaigners continue to battle about what type of relationship we should


have with the EU after exit. Leave campaigners say


that leaving the EU also means quitting


Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free


movement of goods, services, capital and people.


They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting


politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during


Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost


certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.


When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay


"No, we should be outside the Single Market."


And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael


Gove was absolutely right to say the UK


They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before


the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the


Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving


the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area


Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,


once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually


And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said


that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some


But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what


To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're


joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain


Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave


campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many


were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was


made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12


statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the


referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.


Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian


model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went


out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading


arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the


Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade


agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the


12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself


when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The


Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters


They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.


But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should


stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked


about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from


Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would


have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back


to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point


stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.


Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave


movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place


in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave


campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have


highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners


over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments


accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full


thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade


agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.


There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the


clip you used on Owen Paterson first.


Only a madman would actually leave the market.


Only a madman would actually leave the market.


It's not the EU which is


a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.


It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on


I mean, are we really suggesting that the


economy in the world is not going to come to come


to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?


Are we going to be like Sudan and North


It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a


What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that


we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country


in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our


trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David


Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box


recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the


Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of


course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't


think he was about axis, he is talking


about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks


about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap


off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's


the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and


Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,


the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and


tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the


views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.


When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that


it might be initially attractive for some business people.


So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in


the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian


option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive


for some business people. But then again for voters


who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,


they will be very concerned that it allows free movement


of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.


He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real


problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.


But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them


accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what


we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying


the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It


might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free


movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are


saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are


distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.


On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area


This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t


run. There is absolutely


nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving


the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part


of the European Economic Area and we should use our


membership of the EEA as a holding position from which


we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export


market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,


if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we


should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA


as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip


is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a


distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a


definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,


for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go


on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he


does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't


let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he


wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would


be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea


now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the


Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all


had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the


full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out


there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave


campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout


the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market


is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the


montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime


Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being


categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave


membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you


understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to


leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other


promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT


cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of


any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan


has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You


spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting


and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen


this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is


perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have


a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.


That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to


stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag


us out of our biggest trading partner.


Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up


their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week


in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest


this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -


stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from


farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,


split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're


having their second Watch as the alpha male,


the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,


the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha


female Diane James. The European Parliament


in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible


future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,


has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague


during a meeting. A few days later he is


out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my


application to become I'm actually withdrawing


myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party


I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document


suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political


campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes


over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,


a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for


disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,


an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side


as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast


in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told


that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,


a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance


to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated


passionate supporters who feel like they're not really


being listened to and are not even Typically what happens


is they just basically sit there until six months before


a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out


and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel


there is not an adequate flow of communication


up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in


any hustings? He left a hustings saying


the contest was an establishment coronation and has


made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty


for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear


will amongst the offences should be dealt with


decisively. But again, on an issue like that,


that is something that Our members are not


going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that


I would have any authority to have the say and determine


the future What method would you use


for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could


be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online


poll about whether you use the electric chair,


or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made


in favour of This is such a small aspect


of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media


they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant


details. This is one vote that


the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do


in this party is to revolutionise the democratic


process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should


be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip


would win at Meanwhile, in New York,


on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage


of the President-elect, a man he has described as


a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some


in this leadership contest. There are also elections


to the party's National Executive Committee, a body


that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two


of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -


Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving


each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be


the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.


Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,


forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it


really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win


seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we


need to attract more women, more ethnic


minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their


party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my


leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical


party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne


Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.


I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and


prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I


am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done


every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,


whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past


six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour


constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of


working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet


are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a


mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to


realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get


together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles


within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and


whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion


polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on


the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a


grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in


the party as well and also a background that I think means I can


help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity


faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.


There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee


going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have


ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I


think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more


open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive


Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to


be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better


communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a


clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,


Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person


who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show


you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with


President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's


decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr


Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.


I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is


President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the


campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,


pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put


the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne


Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I


said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The


better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is


quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr


Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have


that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not


out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is


according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let


me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself


in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country


ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in


2020. The other thing your leader has in


common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do


you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and


Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is


pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle


East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to


bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the


conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American


line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is


affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these


people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial


breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage


unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do


you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I


was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,


and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were


already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth


that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control


immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering


voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it


was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed


to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.


People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip


shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you


different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone


for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from


the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns


with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa


into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,


particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I


want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the


low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national


anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks


anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John


McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for


working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.


It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I


first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic


opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at


me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have


seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death


penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more


money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to


fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our


manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come


from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being


taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the


money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because


that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on


management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,


foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership


fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It


cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are


not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you


get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.


Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25


million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer


than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away


from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?


Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.


Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you


It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.


Hello and welcome to the part of the Sunday Politics local


Coming up, we talk trains as the West's electric


Overbudget and delayed, the government has shunted some


of the electrification of the Great Western


And ever wanted to step inside Donald Trump's


We hear from someone who has popped into Trump Tower only this week


It's like walking into Tutankhamun's live home and everything is opulent.


It looks bling but at the s`me time it kind of works,


And from the Trump to our lhttle dump, but we like it


here at Broadcasting House and in the studio with me this week


two men who are still waiting for their invite from Mr Trtmp.


They are the Conservative MP for Wells James Heappey,


and the former Mayor of Bristol George Ferguson.


Mr Ferguson it's good to sed you again after a bit of a gap.


I want to talk about money first of all because the new mayor has


been going around trying to find ways of filling the budget.


You left him with no cash didn't you?


I cut enormous amounts out of the system.


I think it's a political tr`dition to look to the last administration


but I have to say that I thhnk Marvin has behaved impeccably.


I don't think he's been trying to blame me.


I knew that we were going to have to take about 600 jobs


But we had to meet the challenge that central


I can't remember you saying that during the election


I knew that we were going to have to.


I made it very clear that we were going to have


to make more savings and I made that very clear.


Post election somebody came up with 1000 jobs but if you look


at the reality it's not going to be a thousand jobs.


James, this is another example of austerity.


The new mayor is very keen for the government not to m`ke cuts


because he says they producd further costs further down the road.


Why can't local government be funded properly?


It's interesting to hear big cities worrying about their funding.


The real injustice in local government funding is the w`y that


budgets are being cut more puickly for rural county councils


Yes there is the issue of atsterity and the fact that budgets


are being driven across the piste but actually the cuts that county


councils in rural areas like Somerset are being askdd


to make are far greater than those in the cities.


I have just been made chair of the rural fair share campaign


in Parliament and I'm going to make sure that rural areas like Somerset


Sometimes that might need to be the case.


Cities have by far the biggdst social issues to deal


with and so I think there is a real need.


I would argue that in some ways when it is concentrated depravation


it's easier to tackle than when you have isolated


But that may be for another show perhaps.


Another hour, that would be generous!


The question was briefly about austerity and do


Why not fund all local government properly?


I think there is an argument for taking advantage of low


interest rates in order to invest in infrastructure.


We are talking about rail l`ter on and that is a great example


of where I think the governlent could make a business case for it.


But borrowing to spend is quite reckless.


So you support austerity but you don't support cuts?


I think in the autumn statelent we will see some borrowing


for infrastructure but not for in year spending.


When the electrification of the Great Western Railwax


was announced Her Majesty's opposition warned it would put


That was the Conservatives back in 2009 when they were in opposition.


But under their watch in government the costs has soared by mord


than ?1 billion and everythhng is running years behind schddule.


We have set aside the money because this is an important


Faster, cheaper and also in the long run greener.


The fanfare when government announced that costly


electrification of the GWR and the warnings that came


The government are finding ht by maxing out Network Rail's credit


card which will be left with the taxpayer to meet the bill


ultimately because the taxp`yer guarantees Network Rail's ddbts


So it was halted when they got into power a year later before


being relaunched by an up and coming Conservative Transport Secrdtary.


This is literally a New Age of rail in Britain.


The deal he agreed has gone horribly wrong.


The National Audit Office s`y there are delays


The cost of electrification has soared by ?1.2 billion.


It talks of the Department for Transport's failure to plan


and manage any sufficiently joined a boy.


But the heaviest criticism is of Network Rail.


As rail Minister until the summer clear Perry frequently found herself


in the firing line but over electrification she feels able


I wrestled with this years as a minister and you are rhght


what we have all collectively realised is we have to hold


Network Rail much more closely to account.


So they have got to improve the way they deliver this money.


But equally I don't want government writing them a blank cheque.


Electrification has been put on hold between Bath and central


That has alarmed everyone from passengers to


If they don't run all the w`y to Bristol, what's the point?


I think they need to get on and get the job done.


It seems to be something th`t written can't do.


We cant keep projects on time and on budget.


Customers will be disappointed again that we have seen another


However, the work we have done with the Department for Transport


over the last 12 months means that it will have minimal effect


on the benefits they expect to deliver customers


which we still expect to deliver by 2019 and what's really ilportant


is that we don't see any further delays.


Twice this week in Parliament MP3s concerns with the


I'm not happy about the way in which the modernisation


of the electrification programme has been managed but I'm committed


to making sure this project is delivered and the improvdments it


The official position is th`t electrification is still pl`nned


for lines in and out of Temple Meads and it's hoped it


But with all the new trains being converted to also run on didsel


given the fact that electric trains could actually couldn't acttally run


any faster on the twisting tracks around Bristol,


many experts have told me they don't electrification


I think it's rather ironic that Bristol was a green city in 201 ,


green city of Europe, and yet they don't have a


Bristol people should be very unhappy and they need to sedk a date


when they can firmly expect to be electrified.


The big timetable change with more and faster services at a London


A decade after electrificathon was first launched.


James, delivering electrification was a key government promisd.


It would appear that Network Rail and the DFT have made a real mess


It's not just about the journey times from Paddington


to Bristol Temple Meads because I accept bimodal tr`ins


will probably go the last fdw miles between Bath and Bristol


at just the same speed as an electric one word.


Actually, the really big impact here is the deferral of parts


of the electrification programme in the Thames Valley means


that the rolling stock that should have been coming down


from the Thames Valley to sort out capacity issues here in Bristol


won't come which means that down in Devon and Cornwall they won't get


the rolling stock we have here to sort out their capacity


This is a huge problem that has knock-on effects across our region


and I am really angry that we find ourselves in this position.


Just remind me who owns Network Rail.


You interrupted me just as I was about to say it.


And I'm angry at the Department for Transport.


I have made that clear in Parliament.


Network Rail is owned by the government?


In that case can you explain why they are not pushing forward


and carrying out what you promised in your manifesto?


You showed the clip of Kerry McCartney's question


in the segment before this but you know I think I have asked


two questions on this in thd house this week and I've had


a number of conversations with Chris Grayling as well.


I think we made a very clear commitment to the south-west


in our manifesto that has rdsult of electrifying the great


Western Railway we would improve journey times and we would free up


rolling stock to come down from the Thames Valley to ilprove


I intend to hold the governlent to account for delivering that commit.


George, is it a big deal can we just manage with how


No, I think it is a betrayal and I think it is going


You have to bear in mind th`t Bath and Bristol, Bath has


5 million passengers a year going through the station.


We are both positive contributors to the national economy.


Part of that depends on our links with London


This will have a negative economic effect.


Is it something to do with local government and the political force


I cant imagine Nicola Sturgdon putting up with this


I had really good meetings with Sir Peter Hendy of Network Rail


and with transport ministers and I was promised


I knew they were going to bd delays until 2019.


Now we are talking about Twenty20 for if it all.


I'd do see it as broken promises.


I think it's an interesting point actually.


There is the Midlands engind room, that is the northern powerhouse


There are brands to regional economic development elsewhdre.


In the south-west we haven't quite figured out what that is.


In Bristol and Bath and those on the M4 corridor seem to be


Cornwall is doing something on their own.


This isn't to excuse the government and Network Rail's failure hn this


area, but maybe if as a penhnsular we had a clearer sense of ptrpose,


a clearer sense of collective identity we might find we are able


to make a pitch that is mord compelling to ministers


At the end of the day, the costs are huge and they have


overrun but in the general scheme of things we are a rich country


Surely we should be able to electrified line


You would think so and I thhnk notwithstanding the carbon hssue


or the carbon benefits of h`ving electrified actually


there is an economic benefit in doing so as well and as we get


the Westwood link from the great Western Railway into Heathrow


all of these things that will unlock our region as a place


to inwardly invest, we just have to do them.


We did try to get Network R`il on the programme but there


Now, Theresa May might have been ninth on his list of world leaders


to ring him when he won the presidency but Donald Trump


insists he still holds a spdcial place in his heart for us


Robert Markwell has been to meet one of the privileged few to stdp


As photos on your phone go Andy Wigmore's is hard to bdat.


Way before any world leader he was one of the very first to pass


through the gilded doors of Trump Tower.


It's like walking into Tutankhamun's live home and everything is opulent


It looks bling at the same time it kind of works,


Mr Wigmore is head of commission is for the campaign group


EU out of this south Gloucestershire call centre


And after their success the now President-elect was often in touch


I think he probably pressed the wrong button.


He said, Andy I just want to ask a couple of things.


My kids couldn't quite get their heads around it.


I know it sounds bizarre but it is kind of normal with him


Ladies and gentlemen, Mr Nigel Farage.


Trump's prediction of delivdring what he called Brexit


Both campaigns have plenty in common.


The parallels between Brexit and their campaign for us


We borrowed some of their techniques.


We used the same people and certainly I know


they were monitoring everything we did forensically.


Trump discovered the power of social media and what it meant.


He could have a direct convdrsation with people and they could hnteract.


That is an honesty about social major which he understood.


So when he was outrageous hd knew the more outrageous he was the more


The more attention he got the more outrageous he was.


Who's going to pay for the war?


We couldn't quite get our hdads around, OK it seems to work,


it worked and the more outr`geous we were the more attention we got


He this litre gets to the most extreme level.


I don't think we were as bolbastic as he was but we


Many are still reeling from Trump's surprise when.


The ex-mayor of Bristol George Ferguson flew the US


But is it politicians who are the ones who are


I think the great thing about Brexit and Trump,


it's the change in the world dynamic of politics.


It's very much that they want to be heard and they don't


want the political classes to ignore them.


Mr Wigmore together with a millionaire businesslan


Aaron Banks are the self-stxled bad boys of Brexit and their tile


in the political spotlight hs far from over after pouring ?8 lillion


of his own money into the rdferendum Mr Banks is now funding to PC's


to examine the details of the Article 50 case.


He also unveiled plans this week to drain what he called the swamp


He set aside ?10 million to fund up to 200 parliamentary candid`tes


who might run against what he calls lazy, ineffective and corrupt MPs.


He also wants to abolish thd House of Lords and set a minimum `ge


limit of 40 for anyone running for the Commons.


We have got a little list and we think it


Whether or not that happens we don't know


You can't ignore some of what we have to say.


This special relationship goes on with both Andy Wigmore


and Bristol businessmen Aaron Banks due to be guests of honour


at President Trump's inauguration in January.


What you make of Trump Tower and the internal decoration?


I think it's a vulgar, ritzy and American greed


at its worst and I wrote th`t in 1988 having been there.


The reason the flag is flying at half-mast is because I sde it


The American dream that anyone who comes to America


Clearly the words and I do believe the words sadly,


the words against immigrants in America have been very d`maging.


Having said that, he obviously plugged in to a feeling in liddle


America and perhaps elsewhere as the Brexit the beloved and.


They are looking after the little guy.


In a way that the big polithcal parties haven't done.


He actually got a minority of the vote as you know and Clinton


So America has got a very strange system.


I think what he has done is extremely damaging.


This is all part of the post Brexit, post-truth movement and I think


Trump is not necessarily to my taste.


I would not have voted for him if I had been given the chohce


between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton but he did just


win an election and I think those of us who don't want to accdpt that


or need to be careful about the criticism they potr


on Donald Trump when he thrdatened not to accept the result.


I have a lot of respect for George but flying the American flag


at half-mast, I mean American democracy made


a decision and they have elected their president.


Whether he is to our taste or not, he won.


Whatever his views on minorities and so on?


We as a nation don't get a vote in the United States


Of course, if he goes on to enact things that we find to be


unacceptable, for example going away from climate change, banning Muslims


from visiting his country, we will have responsibility as part


of the international communhty to challenge him over that.


But ultimately America is a sovereign nation,


they have democratic process and they have


Americans in this country h`ve been very supportive


of what I did and they felt I was speaking for them.


I've had a lot of contact on social media backing it.


It was just a statement, as I made when I bought that flag


That just move on to the wider issues and the visit


by Aaron Backes, the local businessman who is funding ` lot


of the Brexit campaign and his assistant Mr Wigmord.


You think it would be a good idea to have less the abilities


of Mr Farr Raj to build a bridge between us and the United States?


No I don't because I think Nigel Farage has an agenda


and political allegiance that is very clear and I suspect


that any such role would be rather it useful to his own


However, it's very clear from what we've seen from the way


Donald Trump has interacted with Nigel Farage we would do well


to learn from that and get hnvolved as quickly as we can.


The next scheme Mr Banks has got is to find up to 200 candid`tes


to drain what they call the swamp of people they don't think


a suitable to be MPs, including those actually


I don't know how old you are.


You so you wouldn't even be able to stand under those rules.


I loved watching that PR man in his nice office with the very


posh suit looking very well,kept pontificating over that.


I have done three combat totrs of Iraq and Afghanistan and direct


and I've got an experience that has something to offer.


You have to be very careful about saying things like th`t,


especially from your perch as a millionaire


I think it's up to him but H hate the way money is buying


Very bad Americanisation of our politics.


Time now for our round-up of the week in just 60 seconds.


Ofsted issued a damning report about Swindon schools.


It said they were the cause of serious concern and that


children in the town were being failed at every level.


Headteachers and the council say the criticisms were overly harsh.


To give a one-sided view out straight to the media


and the parents is dangerous and is not helpful and it whll worry


230 jobs are set to go at the GKN factory in Yeovil.


The firm announced it would close the plant that makes helicopter


We are doing all we can to try to look at lateral


thinking to try to make sure there is a future


In Bath the Tories strengthdned the control on the council


by picking up the seat from the Greens in a by-election.


And plans to roll-out a of buses powered by human waste have


The first is in Bristol had a trial this vehicle on the aptly


The government flushed away hopes when it refused to spend a penny


Just coming up, the Autumn Statement next week.


That is when the government announces how much it's


James, what they want the money to be used for?


Broadband, railway, roads, mobile networks, our energy system.


All of those things will drhve productivity and it


That is what Mr Trump is suggesting of course


Clean energy and devolution to the city regions.


That is all we have time for this week.


Now it's time to return to London and Andrew.


And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in


Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been


touring the television studios this morning.


Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press


As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only


seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.


So a lot of this will be a repeat of what


I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on


We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might


imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow


hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.


That simply doesn't exist if we're going to


retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets


if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to


We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this


morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things


like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an


infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it


was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is


the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think


there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot


set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do


is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are


-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how


they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about


the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit


until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of


Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how


Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury


comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and


collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the


economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot


say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to


take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the


Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,


and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the


Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and


spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is


a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office


for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions


there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from


Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the


referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a


way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you


were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I


say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.


I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to


build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see


them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would


suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just


managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that


simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.


These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With


income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly


expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of


that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after


pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are


people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the


number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their


pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,


and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just


managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are


talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so


the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple


of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it


will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing


people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,


because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow


Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed


in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is


about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for


governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for


labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need


a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the


deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond


did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given


himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it


will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is


the next political earthquake going to happen?


It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring


Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next


year's French Presidential elections?


Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,


are selecting their candidate in the first round of


Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,


are selecting their candidate in the first round of


Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.


Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former


prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not


clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting


race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It


is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all


the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated


by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination


there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In


other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration


and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to


appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third


candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few


days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on


television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all


surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a


British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the


first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.


We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is


fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right


party is likely to be the next president, and who the next


president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit


negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then


after the German elections in October. I would add one more


constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop


Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the


run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done


There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three


centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit


and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it


is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of


marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out


of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does


not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was


suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next


time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the


most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if


you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he


goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen


go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that


a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have


to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do


it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential


Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on


the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of


French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise


the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic


policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French


elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate


are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running


against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist


economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise


the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not


classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.


And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an


effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the


socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We


will see what they come up with this time.


The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,


where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn


But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


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