Andrew Neil and David Garmston hear from the candidates for the Ukip leadership and look ahead to the chancellor's Autumn Statement.
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Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
In the West, inside Donald Trump 's private quarters. We catch tp with
one of the very in London: Is the battle for
Richmond Park based on the skies? Or is it about a bigger conflict in
Europe? And with me - as always -
and, no, these three aren't doing the Mannequin challenge -
it's our dynamic, demonstrative dazzling political panel -
Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be
tweeting throughout the programme. First this morning -
Theresa May has said "Brexit means Brexit" -
but can the Prime Minister - who was on the Remain side
of argument during the referendum Well, Leave-supporting Tory
MPs are re-launching the "European Research Group" this
morning to keep Mrs May's feet Are you worried that you cannot
trust Theresa May until payment to deliver full Brexit was Magellan
like I totally trust Theresa May, 100% behind her. She has displayed a
massive amount of commitment to making a success of Brexit for the
country. We don't know that yet, because
nothing has happened. Why, then have you formed a pressure group? We
were fed up with the negativity coming out around Brexit. I feel
positive about the opportunities we face, and we are a group to provide
suggestions. Who do you have in mind when you talk about negativity the
Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems, for example, from Labour MPs. This
is a pressure group for leaving membership of the single market and
customs union, correct? That is what we are proposing. It has a purpose
other than just to combat negativity. When it comes to
membership of the single market and the customs union, can you tell us
what Government policy is towards both or either? Rightly, the
Government hasn't made the position clear, and I think that is the right
approach, because we don't want to review our negotiating hand. What
we're saying... I'm not asking what you are saying. Can you tell us what
Government policy is towards membership of these institutions?
The Government wants to make sure British businesses have the right to
trade with EU partners, to forge new trade deals with the rest of the
world. We hope to Reza may speak at Mansion house this week. -- we had
Theresa May speak at Mansion house this week. She has been clear,
saying it was not a binary choice. And she's right. Let's run that
tape, because I want to pick up on what she did say. This is what she
had to say about the customs union at Prime Minister's Question Time.
On the whole question of the customs union, trading relationships that we
have with the European Union and other parts of the world once we
have left the European Union, we are preparing carefully for the formal
negotiations. We are preparing carefully for the formal
negotiations. We want to ensure we have the best possible trading deal
with the EU once we have left. Do you know what she means when she
says being in the customs union is not a binary choice? I think she's
right when she says that. At the moment, and you know this, as long
as we are in the customs union, we cannot set our own tariffs or rules,
cannot have a free trade agreement with the US or China. We need to
leave a customs union to do that. Binary means either you are in or
you are out, self which is it? We still want to trade with the EU and
I think we can have a free trade agreement with the EU. That is a
separate matter, and it has to do with the single market. What about
the customs union? We need to leave the customs union. We do it and
properly. That is how to get the most out of this opportunity. Summit
is a binary choice? The Prime Minister is right when she says it's
not a binary choice. Both can't be right. We can leave the customs
union, get their benefits, and have a free trade agreement with zero
tariffs with the EU. So it is a binary choice an either be stale
really. Yellow like I am saying the Prime Minister is right when she
says it is not a binary choice. -- I am saying the Prime Minister is
right. We need clarity. Youth had said -- you have said it is a binary
choice. We need to leave the constraints of the customs union. It
pushes up prices. The EU is not securing the right trade deals, and
if we want to make the most of it, we need to get out there and get
some deals going. Do you accept that if we remain in the customs union,
we cannot do our own free-trade deals? Yellow right 100%. That is
why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do you accept that if we leave the
customs union but stay with substantial access, I don't say
membership, but substantial access to the single market, that goods
going from this country to the single market because we're no
longer in the union will be subject to complicated rules of origin
regulations, which could cost business ?13 billion a year? I would
like to see a free-trade agreement between the UK and the EU. Look at
the Canadian deal. I give you that, but if we're not in the customs
union, things that we bring in on our own tariffs once we've left we
can't just export again willy-nilly to the EU. They will demand to see
rules of origin. Norway has to do that at the moment and it is highly
complicated expensive. I think if we agree a particular arrangement as
part of this agreement with the EU, we can reach an agreement on that
which sets a lower standard, which sets a different level of tariffs,
which protects some of our industries. Let's suppose we have
pretty much free trade with the EU but we are out of the customs union,
and let's suppose that the European Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese
whisky and we decide to have a % tariff - what then happens to the
whisky that comes into Britain and goes on to the EU? The EU will not
let that in. That will be part of the negotiation. I think there is a
huge benefit for external operators. Every bottle of Japanese whisky
they will have to work out the rules of origin. There have been studies
that show there is a potential for 50% increase in global product if we
leave. We're losing the benefits of free trade. I understand, I am
asking for your particular view Thank you for that.
Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could not bring himself to say we would
leave the customs union? It is messy. The reason there is this new
group of Tory MPs signing up to a campaign to make sure we get a
genuine Brexit is because there is this vacuum. It is being filled with
all sorts of briefing from the other side. There is a real risk in the
minds of Brexit supporting MPs that the remaining side are going to try
to hijack the process, not only through the Supreme Court action,
which I think most Brexit MPs seem to accept the appeal will fail, but
further down the line, through amendments to the great repeal bill.
This is a pressure group to try to hold the Prime Minister to account.
There is plenty of pressure on the Prime Minister effectively to stay
in the single market and the customs union, and if you do both of these
things, de facto, you have stayed in the EU. She is in a difficult
position because there is no good faith assumption about what Theresa
May wants because she was a Remainer. There is all this talk
about a transitional arrangement, but she can't sell that as someone
who voted to remain. The way Isabel has characterised it is interesting.
There is a betrayal narrative. Everyone is looking to say that she
has betrayed the true Brexit. Since the Government cannot give a clear
indication of what it once in terms of the customs union, which sets
external tariffs, or the single market, which is the free movement
of people, capital, goods and services, others are filling this
vacuum. Right. The reasons they can't do this are, first, they don't
know if they can get it or not. We saw this with the renegotiation the
last Prime Minister. What are they hoping to get? The world on a stick,
to get cake and eat it. You go into a negotiation saying, let's see what
we can get in total. Are they going to ask the membership of the single
market? Yellow I think they will ask for a free trade agreement involving
everything. You can demand what you want. The question is, do they stand
a cat's chance in hell of getting it? They don't know. Welcome back.
We will be back, believe me. It is 150 day since we found out the UK
had voted to leave the EU, but as we have heard, remain and leave
campaigners continue to battle about what type of relationship we should
have with the EU after exit. Leave campaigners say
that leaving the EU also means quitting
Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
movement of goods, services, capital and people.
They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
"No, we should be outside the Single Market."
And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself
when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The
Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters
They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would
have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full
thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
Only a madman would actually leave the market.
Only a madman would actually leave the market.
It's not the EU which is
a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
I mean, are we really suggesting that the
economy in the world is not going to come to come
to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
Are we going to be like Sudan and North
It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
think he was about axis, he is talking
about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,
the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
it might be initially attractive for some business people.
So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
for some business people. But then again for voters
who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t
run. There is absolutely
nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
of the European Economic Area and we should use our
membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you
understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You
spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
us out of our biggest trading partner.
Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
having their second Watch as the alpha male,
the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
female Diane James. The European Parliament
in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
during a meeting. A few days later he is
out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
application to become I'm actually withdrawing
myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party
I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,
a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
is they just basically sit there until six months before
a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
there is not an adequate flow of communication
up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
any hustings? He left a hustings saying
the contest was an establishment coronation and has
made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
will amongst the offences should be dealt with
decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
that is something that Our members are not
going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
I would have any authority to have the say and determine
the future What method would you use
for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
poll about whether you use the electric chair,
or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
in favour of This is such a small aspect
of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
details. This is one vote that
the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
of the President-elect, a man he has described as
a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
in this leadership contest. There are also elections
to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
need to attract more women, more ethnic
minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I
think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better
communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The
better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
2020. The other thing your leader has in
common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns
with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our
manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
Hello and welcome to the part of the Sunday Politics local
Coming up, we talk trains as the West's electric
Overbudget and delayed, the government has shunted some
of the electrification of the Great Western
And ever wanted to step inside Donald Trump's
We hear from someone who has popped into Trump Tower only this week
It's like walking into Tutankhamun's live home and everything is opulent.
It looks bling but at the s`me time it kind of works,
And from the Trump to our lhttle dump, but we like it
here at Broadcasting House and in the studio with me this week
two men who are still waiting for their invite from Mr Trtmp.
They are the Conservative MP for Wells James Heappey,
and the former Mayor of Bristol George Ferguson.
Mr Ferguson it's good to sed you again after a bit of a gap.
I want to talk about money first of all because the new mayor has
been going around trying to find ways of filling the budget.
You left him with no cash didn't you?
I cut enormous amounts out of the system.
I think it's a political tr`dition to look to the last administration
but I have to say that I thhnk Marvin has behaved impeccably.
I don't think he's been trying to blame me.
I knew that we were going to have to take about 600 jobs
But we had to meet the challenge that central
I can't remember you saying that during the election
I knew that we were going to have to.
I made it very clear that we were going to have
to make more savings and I made that very clear.
Post election somebody came up with 1000 jobs but if you look
at the reality it's not going to be a thousand jobs.
James, this is another example of austerity.
The new mayor is very keen for the government not to m`ke cuts
because he says they producd further costs further down the road.
Why can't local government be funded properly?
It's interesting to hear big cities worrying about their funding.
The real injustice in local government funding is the w`y that
budgets are being cut more puickly for rural county councils
Yes there is the issue of atsterity and the fact that budgets
are being driven across the piste but actually the cuts that county
councils in rural areas like Somerset are being askdd
to make are far greater than those in the cities.
I have just been made chair of the rural fair share campaign
in Parliament and I'm going to make sure that rural areas like Somerset
Sometimes that might need to be the case.
Cities have by far the biggdst social issues to deal
with and so I think there is a real need.
I would argue that in some ways when it is concentrated depravation
it's easier to tackle than when you have isolated
But that may be for another show perhaps.
Another hour, that would be generous!
The question was briefly about austerity and do
Why not fund all local government properly?
I think there is an argument for taking advantage of low
interest rates in order to invest in infrastructure.
We are talking about rail l`ter on and that is a great example
of where I think the governlent could make a business case for it.
But borrowing to spend is quite reckless.
So you support austerity but you don't support cuts?
I think in the autumn statelent we will see some borrowing
for infrastructure but not for in year spending.
When the electrification of the Great Western Railwax
was announced Her Majesty's opposition warned it would put
That was the Conservatives back in 2009 when they were in opposition.
But under their watch in government the costs has soared by mord
than ?1 billion and everythhng is running years behind schddule.
We have set aside the money because this is an important
Faster, cheaper and also in the long run greener.
The fanfare when government announced that costly
electrification of the GWR and the warnings that came
The government are finding ht by maxing out Network Rail's credit
card which will be left with the taxpayer to meet the bill
ultimately because the taxp`yer guarantees Network Rail's ddbts
So it was halted when they got into power a year later before
being relaunched by an up and coming Conservative Transport Secrdtary.
This is literally a New Age of rail in Britain.
The deal he agreed has gone horribly wrong.
The National Audit Office s`y there are delays
The cost of electrification has soared by ?1.2 billion.
It talks of the Department for Transport's failure to plan
and manage any sufficiently joined a boy.
But the heaviest criticism is of Network Rail.
As rail Minister until the summer clear Perry frequently found herself
in the firing line but over electrification she feels able
I wrestled with this years as a minister and you are rhght
what we have all collectively realised is we have to hold
Network Rail much more closely to account.
So they have got to improve the way they deliver this money.
But equally I don't want government writing them a blank cheque.
Electrification has been put on hold between Bath and central
That has alarmed everyone from passengers to
If they don't run all the w`y to Bristol, what's the point?
I think they need to get on and get the job done.
It seems to be something th`t written can't do.
We cant keep projects on time and on budget.
Customers will be disappointed again that we have seen another
However, the work we have done with the Department for Transport
over the last 12 months means that it will have minimal effect
on the benefits they expect to deliver customers
which we still expect to deliver by 2019 and what's really ilportant
is that we don't see any further delays.
Twice this week in Parliament MP3s concerns with the
I'm not happy about the way in which the modernisation
of the electrification programme has been managed but I'm committed
to making sure this project is delivered and the improvdments it
The official position is th`t electrification is still pl`nned
for lines in and out of Temple Meads and it's hoped it
But with all the new trains being converted to also run on didsel
given the fact that electric trains could actually couldn't acttally run
any faster on the twisting tracks around Bristol,
many experts have told me they don't electrification
I think it's rather ironic that Bristol was a green city in 201 ,
green city of Europe, and yet they don't have a
Bristol people should be very unhappy and they need to sedk a date
when they can firmly expect to be electrified.
The big timetable change with more and faster services at a London
A decade after electrificathon was first launched.
James, delivering electrification was a key government promisd.
It would appear that Network Rail and the DFT have made a real mess
It's not just about the journey times from Paddington
to Bristol Temple Meads because I accept bimodal tr`ins
will probably go the last fdw miles between Bath and Bristol
at just the same speed as an electric one word.
Actually, the really big impact here is the deferral of parts
of the electrification programme in the Thames Valley means
that the rolling stock that should have been coming down
from the Thames Valley to sort out capacity issues here in Bristol
won't come which means that down in Devon and Cornwall they won't get
the rolling stock we have here to sort out their capacity
This is a huge problem that has knock-on effects across our region
and I am really angry that we find ourselves in this position.
Just remind me who owns Network Rail.
You interrupted me just as I was about to say it.
And I'm angry at the Department for Transport.
I have made that clear in Parliament.
Network Rail is owned by the government?
In that case can you explain why they are not pushing forward
and carrying out what you promised in your manifesto?
You showed the clip of Kerry McCartney's question
in the segment before this but you know I think I have asked
two questions on this in thd house this week and I've had
a number of conversations with Chris Grayling as well.
I think we made a very clear commitment to the south-west
in our manifesto that has rdsult of electrifying the great
Western Railway we would improve journey times and we would free up
rolling stock to come down from the Thames Valley to ilprove
I intend to hold the governlent to account for delivering that commit.
George, is it a big deal can we just manage with how
No, I think it is a betrayal and I think it is going
You have to bear in mind th`t Bath and Bristol, Bath has
5 million passengers a year going through the station.
We are both positive contributors to the national economy.
Part of that depends on our links with London
This will have a negative economic effect.
Is it something to do with local government and the political force
I cant imagine Nicola Sturgdon putting up with this
I had really good meetings with Sir Peter Hendy of Network Rail
and with transport ministers and I was promised
I knew they were going to bd delays until 2019.
Now we are talking about Twenty20 for if it all.
I'd do see it as broken promises.
I think it's an interesting point actually.
There is the Midlands engind room, that is the northern powerhouse
There are brands to regional economic development elsewhdre.
In the south-west we haven't quite figured out what that is.
In Bristol and Bath and those on the M4 corridor seem to be
Cornwall is doing something on their own.
This isn't to excuse the government and Network Rail's failure hn this
area, but maybe if as a penhnsular we had a clearer sense of ptrpose,
a clearer sense of collective identity we might find we are able
to make a pitch that is mord compelling to ministers
At the end of the day, the costs are huge and they have
overrun but in the general scheme of things we are a rich country
Surely we should be able to electrified line
You would think so and I thhnk notwithstanding the carbon hssue
or the carbon benefits of h`ving electrified actually
there is an economic benefit in doing so as well and as we get
the Westwood link from the great Western Railway into Heathrow
all of these things that will unlock our region as a place
to inwardly invest, we just have to do them.
We did try to get Network R`il on the programme but there
Now, Theresa May might have been ninth on his list of world leaders
to ring him when he won the presidency but Donald Trump
insists he still holds a spdcial place in his heart for us
Robert Markwell has been to meet one of the privileged few to stdp
As photos on your phone go Andy Wigmore's is hard to bdat.
Way before any world leader he was one of the very first to pass
through the gilded doors of Trump Tower.
It's like walking into Tutankhamun's live home and everything is opulent
It looks bling at the same time it kind of works,
Mr Wigmore is head of commission is for the campaign group
EU out of this south Gloucestershire call centre
And after their success the now President-elect was often in touch
I think he probably pressed the wrong button.
He said, Andy I just want to ask a couple of things.
My kids couldn't quite get their heads around it.
I know it sounds bizarre but it is kind of normal with him
Ladies and gentlemen, Mr Nigel Farage.
Trump's prediction of delivdring what he called Brexit
Both campaigns have plenty in common.
The parallels between Brexit and their campaign for us
We borrowed some of their techniques.
We used the same people and certainly I know
they were monitoring everything we did forensically.
Trump discovered the power of social media and what it meant.
He could have a direct convdrsation with people and they could hnteract.
That is an honesty about social major which he understood.
So when he was outrageous hd knew the more outrageous he was the more
The more attention he got the more outrageous he was.
Who's going to pay for the war?
We couldn't quite get our hdads around, OK it seems to work,
it worked and the more outr`geous we were the more attention we got
He this litre gets to the most extreme level.
I don't think we were as bolbastic as he was but we
Many are still reeling from Trump's surprise when.
The ex-mayor of Bristol George Ferguson flew the US
But is it politicians who are the ones who are
I think the great thing about Brexit and Trump,
it's the change in the world dynamic of politics.
It's very much that they want to be heard and they don't
want the political classes to ignore them.
Mr Wigmore together with a millionaire businesslan
Aaron Banks are the self-stxled bad boys of Brexit and their tile
in the political spotlight hs far from over after pouring ?8 lillion
of his own money into the rdferendum Mr Banks is now funding to PC's
to examine the details of the Article 50 case.
He also unveiled plans this week to drain what he called the swamp
He set aside ?10 million to fund up to 200 parliamentary candid`tes
who might run against what he calls lazy, ineffective and corrupt MPs.
He also wants to abolish thd House of Lords and set a minimum `ge
limit of 40 for anyone running for the Commons.
We have got a little list and we think it
Whether or not that happens we don't know
You can't ignore some of what we have to say.
This special relationship goes on with both Andy Wigmore
and Bristol businessmen Aaron Banks due to be guests of honour
at President Trump's inauguration in January.
What you make of Trump Tower and the internal decoration?
I think it's a vulgar, ritzy and American greed
at its worst and I wrote th`t in 1988 having been there.
The reason the flag is flying at half-mast is because I sde it
The American dream that anyone who comes to America
Clearly the words and I do believe the words sadly,
the words against immigrants in America have been very d`maging.
Having said that, he obviously plugged in to a feeling in liddle
America and perhaps elsewhere as the Brexit the beloved and.
They are looking after the little guy.
In a way that the big polithcal parties haven't done.
He actually got a minority of the vote as you know and Clinton
So America has got a very strange system.
I think what he has done is extremely damaging.
This is all part of the post Brexit, post-truth movement and I think
Trump is not necessarily to my taste.
I would not have voted for him if I had been given the chohce
between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton but he did just
win an election and I think those of us who don't want to accdpt that
or need to be careful about the criticism they potr
on Donald Trump when he thrdatened not to accept the result.
I have a lot of respect for George but flying the American flag
at half-mast, I mean American democracy made
a decision and they have elected their president.
Whether he is to our taste or not, he won.
Whatever his views on minorities and so on?
We as a nation don't get a vote in the United States
Of course, if he goes on to enact things that we find to be
unacceptable, for example going away from climate change, banning Muslims
from visiting his country, we will have responsibility as part
of the international communhty to challenge him over that.
But ultimately America is a sovereign nation,
they have democratic process and they have
Americans in this country h`ve been very supportive
of what I did and they felt I was speaking for them.
I've had a lot of contact on social media backing it.
It was just a statement, as I made when I bought that flag
That just move on to the wider issues and the visit
by Aaron Backes, the local businessman who is funding ` lot
of the Brexit campaign and his assistant Mr Wigmord.
You think it would be a good idea to have less the abilities
of Mr Farr Raj to build a bridge between us and the United States?
No I don't because I think Nigel Farage has an agenda
and political allegiance that is very clear and I suspect
that any such role would be rather it useful to his own
However, it's very clear from what we've seen from the way
Donald Trump has interacted with Nigel Farage we would do well
to learn from that and get hnvolved as quickly as we can.
The next scheme Mr Banks has got is to find up to 200 candid`tes
to drain what they call the swamp of people they don't think
a suitable to be MPs, including those actually
I don't know how old you are.
You so you wouldn't even be able to stand under those rules.
I loved watching that PR man in his nice office with the very
posh suit looking very well,kept pontificating over that.
I have done three combat totrs of Iraq and Afghanistan and direct
and I've got an experience that has something to offer.
You have to be very careful about saying things like th`t,
especially from your perch as a millionaire
I think it's up to him but H hate the way money is buying
Very bad Americanisation of our politics.
Time now for our round-up of the week in just 60 seconds.
Ofsted issued a damning report about Swindon schools.
It said they were the cause of serious concern and that
children in the town were being failed at every level.
Headteachers and the council say the criticisms were overly harsh.
To give a one-sided view out straight to the media
and the parents is dangerous and is not helpful and it whll worry
230 jobs are set to go at the GKN factory in Yeovil.
The firm announced it would close the plant that makes helicopter
We are doing all we can to try to look at lateral
thinking to try to make sure there is a future
In Bath the Tories strengthdned the control on the council
by picking up the seat from the Greens in a by-election.
And plans to roll-out a of buses powered by human waste have
The first is in Bristol had a trial this vehicle on the aptly
The government flushed away hopes when it refused to spend a penny
Just coming up, the Autumn Statement next week.
That is when the government announces how much it's
James, what they want the money to be used for?
Broadband, railway, roads, mobile networks, our energy system.
All of those things will drhve productivity and it
That is what Mr Trump is suggesting of course
Clean energy and devolution to the city regions.
That is all we have time for this week.
Now it's time to return to London and Andrew.
And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in
Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been
touring the television studios this morning.
Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press
As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only
seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.
So a lot of this will be a repeat of what
I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on
We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might
imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow
hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.
That simply doesn't exist if we're going to
retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets
if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to
We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this
morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things
like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an
infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it
was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is
the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think
there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot
set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do
is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are
-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how
they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about
the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit
until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of
Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how
Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury
comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and
collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the
economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot
say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to
take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the
Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,
and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the
Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and
spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is
a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office
for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions
there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from
Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the
referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a
way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you
were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I
say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.
I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to
build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see
them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would
suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just
managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that
simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.
These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With
income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly
expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of
that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after
pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are
people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the
number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their
pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,
and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just
managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are
talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so
the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple
of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it
will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing
people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,
because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow
Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed
in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is
about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for
governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for
labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need
a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the
deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond
did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given
himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it
will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is
the next political earthquake going to happen?
It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring
Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next
year's French Presidential elections?
Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
are selecting their candidate in the first round of
Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
are selecting their candidate in the first round of
Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.
Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former
prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not
clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting
race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It
is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all
the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated
by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination
there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In
other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration
and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to
appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third
candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few
days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on
television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all
surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a
British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the
first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.
We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is
fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right
party is likely to be the next president, and who the next
president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit
negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then
after the German elections in October. I would add one more
constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop
Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the
run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done
There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three
centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit
and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it
is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of
marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out
of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does
not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was
suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next
time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the
most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if
you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he
goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen
go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that
a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have
to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do
it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential
Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on
the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of
French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise
the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic
policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French
elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate
are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running
against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist
economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise
the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not
classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.
And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an
effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the
socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We
will see what they come up with this time.
The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,
where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn
But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.