20/11/2016 Sunday Politics West


20/11/2016

Andrew Neil and David Garmston hear from the candidates for the Ukip leadership and look ahead to the chancellor's Autumn Statement.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving

:00:41.:00:43.

the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?

:00:44.:00:47.

Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime

:00:48.:00:50.

The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending

:00:51.:01:02.

on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be

:01:03.:01:09.

Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.

:01:10.:01:16.

In the West, inside Donald Trump 's private quarters. We catch tp with

:01:17.:01:22.

one of the very in London: Is the battle for

:01:23.:01:27.

Richmond Park based on the skies? Or is it about a bigger conflict in

:01:28.:01:29.

Europe? And with me - as always -

:01:30.:01:37.

and, no, these three aren't doing the Mannequin challenge -

:01:38.:01:41.

it's our dynamic, demonstrative dazzling political panel -

:01:42.:01:45.

Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be

:01:46.:01:47.

tweeting throughout the programme. First this morning -

:01:48.:01:51.

Theresa May has said "Brexit means Brexit" -

:01:52.:01:56.

but can the Prime Minister - who was on the Remain side

:01:57.:01:59.

of argument during the referendum Well, Leave-supporting Tory

:02:00.:02:01.

MPs are re-launching the "European Research Group" this

:02:02.:02:09.

morning to keep Mrs May's feet Are you worried that you cannot

:02:10.:02:25.

trust Theresa May until payment to deliver full Brexit was Magellan

:02:26.:02:29.

like I totally trust Theresa May, 100% behind her. She has displayed a

:02:30.:02:34.

massive amount of commitment to making a success of Brexit for the

:02:35.:02:36.

country. We don't know that yet, because

:02:37.:02:41.

nothing has happened. Why, then have you formed a pressure group? We

:02:42.:02:46.

were fed up with the negativity coming out around Brexit. I feel

:02:47.:02:52.

positive about the opportunities we face, and we are a group to provide

:02:53.:02:55.

suggestions. Who do you have in mind when you talk about negativity the

:02:56.:03:01.

Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems, for example, from Labour MPs. This

:03:02.:03:07.

is a pressure group for leaving membership of the single market and

:03:08.:03:13.

customs union, correct? That is what we are proposing. It has a purpose

:03:14.:03:17.

other than just to combat negativity. When it comes to

:03:18.:03:22.

membership of the single market and the customs union, can you tell us

:03:23.:03:25.

what Government policy is towards both or either? Rightly, the

:03:26.:03:29.

Government hasn't made the position clear, and I think that is the right

:03:30.:03:33.

approach, because we don't want to review our negotiating hand. What

:03:34.:03:41.

we're saying... I'm not asking what you are saying. Can you tell us what

:03:42.:03:45.

Government policy is towards membership of these institutions?

:03:46.:03:49.

The Government wants to make sure British businesses have the right to

:03:50.:03:53.

trade with EU partners, to forge new trade deals with the rest of the

:03:54.:03:57.

world. We hope to Reza may speak at Mansion house this week. -- we had

:03:58.:04:04.

Theresa May speak at Mansion house this week. She has been clear,

:04:05.:04:09.

saying it was not a binary choice. And she's right. Let's run that

:04:10.:04:13.

tape, because I want to pick up on what she did say. This is what she

:04:14.:04:18.

had to say about the customs union at Prime Minister's Question Time.

:04:19.:04:22.

On the whole question of the customs union, trading relationships that we

:04:23.:04:26.

have with the European Union and other parts of the world once we

:04:27.:04:32.

have left the European Union, we are preparing carefully for the formal

:04:33.:04:42.

negotiations. We are preparing carefully for the formal

:04:43.:04:44.

negotiations. We want to ensure we have the best possible trading deal

:04:45.:04:48.

with the EU once we have left. Do you know what she means when she

:04:49.:04:54.

says being in the customs union is not a binary choice? I think she's

:04:55.:04:58.

right when she says that. At the moment, and you know this, as long

:04:59.:05:01.

as we are in the customs union, we cannot set our own tariffs or rules,

:05:02.:05:06.

cannot have a free trade agreement with the US or China. We need to

:05:07.:05:12.

leave a customs union to do that. Binary means either you are in or

:05:13.:05:16.

you are out, self which is it? We still want to trade with the EU and

:05:17.:05:19.

I think we can have a free trade agreement with the EU. That is a

:05:20.:05:26.

separate matter, and it has to do with the single market. What about

:05:27.:05:31.

the customs union? We need to leave the customs union. We do it and

:05:32.:05:35.

properly. That is how to get the most out of this opportunity. Summit

:05:36.:05:39.

is a binary choice? The Prime Minister is right when she says it's

:05:40.:05:44.

not a binary choice. Both can't be right. We can leave the customs

:05:45.:05:52.

union, get their benefits, and have a free trade agreement with zero

:05:53.:05:57.

tariffs with the EU. So it is a binary choice an either be stale

:05:58.:06:01.

really. Yellow like I am saying the Prime Minister is right when she

:06:02.:06:07.

says it is not a binary choice. -- I am saying the Prime Minister is

:06:08.:06:14.

right. We need clarity. Youth had said -- you have said it is a binary

:06:15.:06:19.

choice. We need to leave the constraints of the customs union. It

:06:20.:06:24.

pushes up prices. The EU is not securing the right trade deals, and

:06:25.:06:27.

if we want to make the most of it, we need to get out there and get

:06:28.:06:31.

some deals going. Do you accept that if we remain in the customs union,

:06:32.:06:36.

we cannot do our own free-trade deals? Yellow right 100%. That is

:06:37.:06:52.

why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do you accept that if we leave the

:06:53.:06:56.

customs union but stay with substantial access, I don't say

:06:57.:07:01.

membership, but substantial access to the single market, that goods

:07:02.:07:04.

going from this country to the single market because we're no

:07:05.:07:08.

longer in the union will be subject to complicated rules of origin

:07:09.:07:14.

regulations, which could cost business ?13 billion a year? I would

:07:15.:07:21.

like to see a free-trade agreement between the UK and the EU. Look at

:07:22.:07:25.

the Canadian deal. I give you that, but if we're not in the customs

:07:26.:07:29.

union, things that we bring in on our own tariffs once we've left we

:07:30.:07:34.

can't just export again willy-nilly to the EU. They will demand to see

:07:35.:07:38.

rules of origin. Norway has to do that at the moment and it is highly

:07:39.:07:45.

complicated expensive. I think if we agree a particular arrangement as

:07:46.:07:48.

part of this agreement with the EU, we can reach an agreement on that

:07:49.:07:51.

which sets a lower standard, which sets a different level of tariffs,

:07:52.:07:57.

which protects some of our industries. Let's suppose we have

:07:58.:08:02.

pretty much free trade with the EU but we are out of the customs union,

:08:03.:08:07.

and let's suppose that the European Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese

:08:08.:08:16.

whisky and we decide to have a % tariff - what then happens to the

:08:17.:08:20.

whisky that comes into Britain and goes on to the EU? The EU will not

:08:21.:08:25.

let that in. That will be part of the negotiation. I think there is a

:08:26.:08:32.

huge benefit for external operators. Every bottle of Japanese whisky

:08:33.:08:36.

they will have to work out the rules of origin. There have been studies

:08:37.:08:41.

that show there is a potential for 50% increase in global product if we

:08:42.:08:45.

leave. We're losing the benefits of free trade. I understand, I am

:08:46.:08:50.

asking for your particular view Thank you for that.

:08:51.:08:55.

Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could not bring himself to say we would

:08:56.:09:00.

leave the customs union? It is messy. The reason there is this new

:09:01.:09:07.

group of Tory MPs signing up to a campaign to make sure we get a

:09:08.:09:10.

genuine Brexit is because there is this vacuum. It is being filled with

:09:11.:09:16.

all sorts of briefing from the other side. There is a real risk in the

:09:17.:09:22.

minds of Brexit supporting MPs that the remaining side are going to try

:09:23.:09:25.

to hijack the process, not only through the Supreme Court action,

:09:26.:09:31.

which I think most Brexit MPs seem to accept the appeal will fail, but

:09:32.:09:35.

further down the line, through amendments to the great repeal bill.

:09:36.:09:40.

This is a pressure group to try to hold the Prime Minister to account.

:09:41.:09:45.

There is plenty of pressure on the Prime Minister effectively to stay

:09:46.:09:48.

in the single market and the customs union, and if you do both of these

:09:49.:09:55.

things, de facto, you have stayed in the EU. She is in a difficult

:09:56.:09:59.

position because there is no good faith assumption about what Theresa

:10:00.:10:02.

May wants because she was a Remainer. There is all this talk

:10:03.:10:08.

about a transitional arrangement, but she can't sell that as someone

:10:09.:10:11.

who voted to remain. The way Isabel has characterised it is interesting.

:10:12.:10:17.

There is a betrayal narrative. Everyone is looking to say that she

:10:18.:10:23.

has betrayed the true Brexit. Since the Government cannot give a clear

:10:24.:10:26.

indication of what it once in terms of the customs union, which sets

:10:27.:10:32.

external tariffs, or the single market, which is the free movement

:10:33.:10:36.

of people, capital, goods and services, others are filling this

:10:37.:10:43.

vacuum. Right. The reasons they can't do this are, first, they don't

:10:44.:10:47.

know if they can get it or not. We saw this with the renegotiation the

:10:48.:10:52.

last Prime Minister. What are they hoping to get? The world on a stick,

:10:53.:11:03.

to get cake and eat it. You go into a negotiation saying, let's see what

:11:04.:11:07.

we can get in total. Are they going to ask the membership of the single

:11:08.:11:11.

market? Yellow I think they will ask for a free trade agreement involving

:11:12.:11:23.

everything. You can demand what you want. The question is, do they stand

:11:24.:11:28.

a cat's chance in hell of getting it? They don't know. Welcome back.

:11:29.:11:34.

We will be back, believe me. It is 150 day since we found out the UK

:11:35.:11:40.

had voted to leave the EU, but as we have heard, remain and leave

:11:41.:11:45.

campaigners continue to battle about what type of relationship we should

:11:46.:11:47.

have with the EU after exit. Leave campaigners say

:11:48.:11:55.

that leaving the EU also means quitting

:11:56.:11:57.

Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free

:11:58.:12:00.

movement of goods, services, capital and people.

:12:01.:12:01.

They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting

:12:02.:12:03.

politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during

:12:04.:12:05.

Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost

:12:06.:12:08.

certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.

:12:09.:12:17.

When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay

:12:18.:12:22.

"No, we should be outside the Single Market."

:12:23.:12:25.

And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael

:12:26.:12:28.

Gove was absolutely right to say the UK

:12:29.:12:30.

They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before

:12:31.:12:41.

the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the

:12:42.:12:44.

Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving

:12:45.:12:47.

the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:12:48.:12:50.

Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,

:12:51.:12:52.

once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually

:12:53.:12:59.

And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said

:13:00.:13:04.

that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some

:13:05.:13:06.

But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what

:13:07.:13:11.

To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're

:13:12.:13:17.

joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain

:13:18.:13:20.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave

:13:21.:13:34.

campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many

:13:35.:13:37.

were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was

:13:38.:13:45.

made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12

:13:46.:13:50.

statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the

:13:51.:13:53.

referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

:13:54.:13:58.

Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian

:13:59.:14:01.

model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went

:14:02.:14:07.

out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading

:14:08.:14:10.

arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the

:14:11.:14:14.

Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade

:14:15.:14:19.

agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the

:14:20.:14:22.

12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself

:14:23.:14:27.

when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The

:14:28.:14:32.

Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters

:14:33.:14:35.

They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.

:14:36.:14:40.

But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should

:14:41.:14:45.

stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked

:14:46.:14:50.

about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from

:14:51.:14:55.

Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would

:14:56.:14:59.

have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back

:15:00.:15:03.

to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point

:15:04.:15:07.

stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.

:15:08.:15:13.

Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave

:15:14.:15:18.

movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place

:15:19.:15:21.

in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave

:15:22.:15:25.

campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have

:15:26.:15:29.

highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners

:15:30.:15:32.

over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments

:15:33.:15:38.

accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full

:15:39.:15:44.

thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade

:15:45.:15:49.

agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.

:15:50.:15:56.

There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the

:15:57.:15:58.

clip you used on Owen Paterson first.

:15:59.:16:00.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

:16:01.:16:07.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

:16:08.:16:11.

It's not the EU which is

:16:12.:16:13.

a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.

:16:14.:16:16.

It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on

:16:17.:16:19.

I mean, are we really suggesting that the

:16:20.:16:22.

economy in the world is not going to come to come

:16:23.:16:25.

to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?

:16:26.:16:27.

Are we going to be like Sudan and North

:16:28.:16:29.

It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a

:16:30.:16:33.

What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that

:16:34.:16:47.

we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country

:16:48.:16:51.

in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our

:16:52.:16:54.

trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David

:16:55.:16:58.

Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box

:16:59.:17:02.

recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the

:17:03.:17:05.

Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of

:17:06.:17:10.

course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't

:17:11.:17:11.

think he was about axis, he is talking

:17:12.:17:30.

about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks

:17:31.:17:32.

about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap

:17:33.:17:35.

off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's

:17:36.:17:38.

the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and

:17:39.:17:40.

Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,

:17:41.:17:43.

the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and

:17:44.:17:45.

tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the

:17:46.:17:48.

views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.

:17:49.:17:49.

When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that

:17:50.:17:52.

it might be initially attractive for some business people.

:17:53.:17:54.

So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in

:17:55.:17:58.

the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian

:17:59.:18:02.

option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive

:18:03.:18:05.

for some business people. But then again for voters

:18:06.:18:07.

who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,

:18:08.:18:10.

they will be very concerned that it allows free movement

:18:11.:18:13.

of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.

:18:14.:18:25.

He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real

:18:26.:18:27.

problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.

:18:28.:18:32.

But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them

:18:33.:18:35.

accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what

:18:36.:18:39.

we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying

:18:40.:18:43.

the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It

:18:44.:18:47.

might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free

:18:48.:18:54.

movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are

:18:55.:18:58.

saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are

:18:59.:19:01.

distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.

:19:02.:19:04.

On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:19:05.:19:06.

This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t

:19:07.:19:14.

run. There is absolutely

:19:15.:19:15.

nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving

:19:16.:19:17.

the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part

:19:18.:19:18.

of the European Economic Area and we should use our

:19:19.:19:22.

membership of the EEA as a holding position from which

:19:23.:19:31.

we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export

:19:32.:19:35.

market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,

:19:36.:19:37.

if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we

:19:38.:19:47.

should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA

:19:48.:19:52.

as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip

:19:53.:20:02.

is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a

:20:03.:20:06.

distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a

:20:07.:20:09.

definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,

:20:10.:20:12.

for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go

:20:13.:20:17.

on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he

:20:18.:20:20.

does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't

:20:21.:20:24.

let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he

:20:25.:20:27.

wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would

:20:28.:20:31.

be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea

:20:32.:20:35.

now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the

:20:36.:20:38.

Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all

:20:39.:20:42.

had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the

:20:43.:20:47.

full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out

:20:48.:20:51.

there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave

:20:52.:20:54.

campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout

:20:55.:20:58.

the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market

:20:59.:21:02.

is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the

:21:03.:21:06.

montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime

:21:07.:21:10.

Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being

:21:11.:21:13.

categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave

:21:14.:21:16.

membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you

:21:17.:21:20.

understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to

:21:21.:21:23.

leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other

:21:24.:21:29.

promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT

:21:30.:21:34.

cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of

:21:35.:21:37.

any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan

:21:38.:21:41.

has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You

:21:42.:21:46.

spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting

:21:47.:21:48.

and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen

:21:49.:21:51.

this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is

:21:52.:21:55.

perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have

:21:56.:21:58.

a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.

:21:59.:22:02.

That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to

:22:03.:22:05.

stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag

:22:06.:22:09.

us out of our biggest trading partner.

:22:10.:22:12.

Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up

:22:13.:22:14.

their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week

:22:15.:22:16.

in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest

:22:17.:22:19.

this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -

:22:20.:22:21.

stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from

:22:22.:22:24.

farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,

:22:25.:22:27.

split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're

:22:28.:22:42.

having their second Watch as the alpha male,

:22:43.:22:52.

the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,

:22:53.:23:00.

the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha

:23:01.:23:02.

female Diane James. The European Parliament

:23:03.:23:05.

in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible

:23:06.:23:19.

future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,

:23:20.:23:22.

has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague

:23:23.:23:24.

during a meeting. A few days later he is

:23:25.:23:26.

out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my

:23:27.:23:29.

application to become I'm actually withdrawing

:23:30.:23:33.

myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party

:23:34.:23:36.

I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document

:23:37.:23:42.

suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political

:23:43.:23:46.

campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes

:23:47.:23:51.

over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,

:23:52.:23:57.

a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for

:23:58.:24:00.

disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,

:24:01.:24:09.

an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side

:24:10.:24:12.

as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast

:24:13.:24:18.

in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told

:24:19.:24:20.

that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,

:24:21.:24:23.

a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance

:24:24.:24:28.

to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated

:24:29.:24:31.

passionate supporters who feel like they're not really

:24:32.:24:45.

being listened to and are not even Typically what happens

:24:46.:24:48.

is they just basically sit there until six months before

:24:49.:24:50.

a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out

:24:51.:24:53.

and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel

:24:54.:24:56.

there is not an adequate flow of communication

:24:57.:24:58.

up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in

:24:59.:25:00.

any hustings? He left a hustings saying

:25:01.:25:09.

the contest was an establishment coronation and has

:25:10.:25:12.

made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty

:25:13.:25:14.

for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear

:25:15.:25:17.

will amongst the offences should be dealt with

:25:18.:25:19.

decisively. But again, on an issue like that,

:25:20.:25:23.

that is something that Our members are not

:25:24.:25:26.

going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that

:25:27.:25:31.

I would have any authority to have the say and determine

:25:32.:25:33.

the future What method would you use

:25:34.:25:35.

for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could

:25:36.:25:39.

be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online

:25:40.:25:41.

poll about whether you use the electric chair,

:25:42.:25:45.

or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made

:25:46.:25:51.

in favour of This is such a small aspect

:25:52.:25:53.

of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media

:25:54.:25:58.

they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant

:25:59.:26:00.

details. This is one vote that

:26:01.:26:06.

the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do

:26:07.:26:08.

in this party is to revolutionise the democratic

:26:09.:26:12.

process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should

:26:13.:26:14.

be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip

:26:15.:26:18.

would win at Meanwhile, in New York,

:26:19.:26:21.

on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage

:26:22.:26:29.

of the President-elect, a man he has described as

:26:30.:26:37.

a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some

:26:38.:26:40.

in this leadership contest. There are also elections

:26:41.:26:43.

to the party's National Executive Committee, a body

:26:44.:26:45.

that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two

:26:46.:26:48.

of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -

:26:49.:27:03.

Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving

:27:04.:27:13.

each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be

:27:14.:27:16.

the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.

:27:17.:27:19.

Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,

:27:20.:27:22.

forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it

:27:23.:27:26.

really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win

:27:27.:27:30.

seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we

:27:31.:27:33.

need to attract more women, more ethnic

:27:34.:27:53.

minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their

:27:54.:27:56.

party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my

:27:57.:27:59.

leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical

:28:00.:28:01.

party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne

:28:02.:28:03.

Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.

:28:04.:28:06.

I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and

:28:07.:28:08.

prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I

:28:09.:28:11.

am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done

:28:12.:28:14.

every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,

:28:15.:28:16.

whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past

:28:17.:28:19.

six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour

:28:20.:28:21.

constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of

:28:22.:28:25.

working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet

:28:26.:28:28.

are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a

:28:29.:28:35.

mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to

:28:36.:28:39.

realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get

:28:40.:28:43.

together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles

:28:44.:28:46.

within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and

:28:47.:28:51.

whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion

:28:52.:28:55.

polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on

:28:56.:29:00.

the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a

:29:01.:29:03.

grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in

:29:04.:29:07.

the party as well and also a background that I think means I can

:29:08.:29:09.

help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity

:29:10.:29:20.

faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.

:29:21.:29:23.

There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee

:29:24.:29:25.

going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have

:29:26.:29:28.

ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I

:29:29.:29:31.

think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more

:29:32.:29:34.

open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive

:29:35.:29:39.

Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to

:29:40.:29:42.

be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better

:29:43.:29:45.

communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a

:29:46.:29:49.

clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,

:29:50.:29:54.

Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person

:29:55.:29:58.

who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show

:29:59.:30:01.

you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with

:30:02.:30:08.

President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's

:30:09.:30:11.

decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr

:30:12.:30:15.

Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.

:30:16.:30:21.

I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is

:30:22.:30:24.

President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the

:30:25.:30:29.

campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,

:30:30.:30:33.

pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put

:30:34.:30:36.

the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne

:30:37.:30:42.

Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I

:30:43.:30:46.

said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The

:30:47.:30:50.

better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is

:30:51.:30:54.

quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr

:30:55.:30:59.

Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have

:31:00.:31:04.

that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not

:31:05.:31:08.

out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is

:31:09.:31:11.

according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let

:31:12.:31:17.

me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself

:31:18.:31:20.

in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country

:31:21.:31:24.

ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in

:31:25.:31:25.

2020. The other thing your leader has in

:31:26.:31:35.

common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do

:31:36.:31:42.

you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and

:31:43.:31:49.

Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is

:31:50.:31:53.

pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle

:31:54.:31:58.

East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to

:31:59.:32:05.

bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the

:32:06.:32:09.

conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American

:32:10.:32:13.

line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is

:32:14.:32:20.

affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these

:32:21.:32:23.

people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial

:32:24.:32:32.

breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage

:32:33.:32:35.

unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do

:32:36.:32:40.

you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I

:32:41.:32:44.

was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,

:32:45.:32:49.

and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were

:32:50.:32:52.

already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth

:32:53.:32:56.

that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control

:32:57.:32:58.

immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering

:32:59.:33:07.

voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it

:33:08.:33:11.

was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed

:33:12.:33:15.

to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.

:33:16.:33:20.

People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip

:33:21.:33:26.

shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you

:33:27.:33:33.

different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone

:33:34.:33:36.

for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from

:33:37.:33:39.

the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns

:33:40.:33:46.

with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa

:33:47.:33:53.

into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,

:33:54.:33:57.

particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I

:33:58.:34:02.

want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the

:34:03.:34:08.

low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national

:34:09.:34:12.

anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks

:34:13.:34:15.

anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John

:34:16.:34:20.

McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for

:34:21.:34:24.

working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.

:34:25.:34:29.

It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I

:34:30.:34:35.

first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic

:34:36.:34:38.

opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at

:34:39.:34:42.

me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have

:34:43.:34:45.

seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death

:34:46.:34:52.

penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more

:34:53.:34:55.

money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to

:34:56.:35:00.

fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our

:35:01.:35:09.

manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come

:35:10.:35:14.

from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being

:35:15.:35:19.

taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the

:35:20.:35:24.

money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because

:35:25.:35:28.

that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on

:35:29.:35:33.

management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,

:35:34.:35:37.

foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership

:35:38.:35:43.

fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It

:35:44.:35:46.

cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are

:35:47.:35:53.

not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you

:35:54.:35:59.

get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.

:36:00.:36:05.

Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25

:36:06.:36:09.

million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer

:36:10.:36:14.

than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away

:36:15.:36:18.

from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?

:36:19.:36:34.

Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.

:36:35.:36:41.

Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you

:36:42.:36:47.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:48.:36:51.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:52.:36:53.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:36:54.:37:23.

Hello and welcome to the part of the Sunday Politics local

:37:24.:37:27.

Coming up, we talk trains as the West's electric

:37:28.:37:34.

Overbudget and delayed, the government has shunted some

:37:35.:37:39.

of the electrification of the Great Western

:37:40.:37:41.

And ever wanted to step inside Donald Trump's

:37:42.:37:45.

We hear from someone who has popped into Trump Tower only this week

:37:46.:37:53.

It's like walking into Tutankhamun's live home and everything is opulent.

:37:54.:37:59.

It looks bling but at the s`me time it kind of works,

:38:00.:38:03.

And from the Trump to our lhttle dump, but we like it

:38:04.:38:10.

here at Broadcasting House and in the studio with me this week

:38:11.:38:13.

two men who are still waiting for their invite from Mr Trtmp.

:38:14.:38:17.

They are the Conservative MP for Wells James Heappey,

:38:18.:38:23.

and the former Mayor of Bristol George Ferguson.

:38:24.:38:25.

Mr Ferguson it's good to sed you again after a bit of a gap.

:38:26.:38:31.

I want to talk about money first of all because the new mayor has

:38:32.:38:35.

been going around trying to find ways of filling the budget.

:38:36.:38:38.

You left him with no cash didn't you?

:38:39.:38:44.

I cut enormous amounts out of the system.

:38:45.:38:46.

I think it's a political tr`dition to look to the last administration

:38:47.:38:54.

but I have to say that I thhnk Marvin has behaved impeccably.

:38:55.:38:57.

I don't think he's been trying to blame me.

:38:58.:39:00.

I knew that we were going to have to take about 600 jobs

:39:01.:39:09.

But we had to meet the challenge that central

:39:10.:39:15.

I can't remember you saying that during the election

:39:16.:39:19.

I knew that we were going to have to.

:39:20.:39:23.

I made it very clear that we were going to have

:39:24.:39:26.

to make more savings and I made that very clear.

:39:27.:39:28.

Post election somebody came up with 1000 jobs but if you look

:39:29.:39:34.

at the reality it's not going to be a thousand jobs.

:39:35.:39:37.

James, this is another example of austerity.

:39:38.:39:43.

The new mayor is very keen for the government not to m`ke cuts

:39:44.:39:46.

because he says they producd further costs further down the road.

:39:47.:39:49.

Why can't local government be funded properly?

:39:50.:39:56.

It's interesting to hear big cities worrying about their funding.

:39:57.:39:59.

The real injustice in local government funding is the w`y that

:40:00.:40:02.

budgets are being cut more puickly for rural county councils

:40:03.:40:05.

Yes there is the issue of atsterity and the fact that budgets

:40:06.:40:11.

are being driven across the piste but actually the cuts that county

:40:12.:40:15.

councils in rural areas like Somerset are being askdd

:40:16.:40:17.

to make are far greater than those in the cities.

:40:18.:40:20.

I have just been made chair of the rural fair share campaign

:40:21.:40:23.

in Parliament and I'm going to make sure that rural areas like Somerset

:40:24.:40:26.

Sometimes that might need to be the case.

:40:27.:40:31.

Cities have by far the biggdst social issues to deal

:40:32.:40:33.

with and so I think there is a real need.

:40:34.:40:37.

I would argue that in some ways when it is concentrated depravation

:40:38.:40:42.

it's easier to tackle than when you have isolated

:40:43.:40:45.

But that may be for another show perhaps.

:40:46.:40:48.

Another hour, that would be generous!

:40:49.:40:53.

The question was briefly about austerity and do

:40:54.:40:55.

Why not fund all local government properly?

:40:56.:41:01.

I think there is an argument for taking advantage of low

:41:02.:41:04.

interest rates in order to invest in infrastructure.

:41:05.:41:06.

We are talking about rail l`ter on and that is a great example

:41:07.:41:09.

of where I think the governlent could make a business case for it.

:41:10.:41:12.

But borrowing to spend is quite reckless.

:41:13.:41:16.

So you support austerity but you don't support cuts?

:41:17.:41:19.

I think in the autumn statelent we will see some borrowing

:41:20.:41:22.

for infrastructure but not for in year spending.

:41:23.:41:24.

When the electrification of the Great Western Railwax

:41:25.:41:27.

was announced Her Majesty's opposition warned it would put

:41:28.:41:30.

That was the Conservatives back in 2009 when they were in opposition.

:41:31.:41:36.

But under their watch in government the costs has soared by mord

:41:37.:41:39.

than ?1 billion and everythhng is running years behind schddule.

:41:40.:41:44.

We have set aside the money because this is an important

:41:45.:41:51.

Faster, cheaper and also in the long run greener.

:41:52.:41:56.

The fanfare when government announced that costly

:41:57.:42:00.

electrification of the GWR and the warnings that came

:42:01.:42:02.

The government are finding ht by maxing out Network Rail's credit

:42:03.:42:09.

card which will be left with the taxpayer to meet the bill

:42:10.:42:13.

ultimately because the taxp`yer guarantees Network Rail's ddbts

:42:14.:42:18.

So it was halted when they got into power a year later before

:42:19.:42:22.

being relaunched by an up and coming Conservative Transport Secrdtary.

:42:23.:42:27.

This is literally a New Age of rail in Britain.

:42:28.:42:30.

The deal he agreed has gone horribly wrong.

:42:31.:42:34.

The National Audit Office s`y there are delays

:42:35.:42:36.

The cost of electrification has soared by ?1.2 billion.

:42:37.:42:43.

It talks of the Department for Transport's failure to plan

:42:44.:42:45.

and manage any sufficiently joined a boy.

:42:46.:42:48.

But the heaviest criticism is of Network Rail.

:42:49.:42:51.

As rail Minister until the summer clear Perry frequently found herself

:42:52.:42:54.

in the firing line but over electrification she feels able

:42:55.:42:57.

I wrestled with this years as a minister and you are rhght

:42:58.:43:06.

what we have all collectively realised is we have to hold

:43:07.:43:10.

Network Rail much more closely to account.

:43:11.:43:12.

So they have got to improve the way they deliver this money.

:43:13.:43:15.

But equally I don't want government writing them a blank cheque.

:43:16.:43:18.

Electrification has been put on hold between Bath and central

:43:19.:43:22.

That has alarmed everyone from passengers to

:43:23.:43:27.

If they don't run all the w`y to Bristol, what's the point?

:43:28.:43:36.

I think they need to get on and get the job done.

:43:37.:43:39.

It seems to be something th`t written can't do.

:43:40.:43:42.

We cant keep projects on time and on budget.

:43:43.:43:46.

Customers will be disappointed again that we have seen another

:43:47.:43:48.

However, the work we have done with the Department for Transport

:43:49.:43:54.

over the last 12 months means that it will have minimal effect

:43:55.:43:57.

on the benefits they expect to deliver customers

:43:58.:43:58.

which we still expect to deliver by 2019 and what's really ilportant

:43:59.:44:01.

is that we don't see any further delays.

:44:02.:44:05.

Twice this week in Parliament MP3s concerns with the

:44:06.:44:07.

I'm not happy about the way in which the modernisation

:44:08.:44:13.

of the electrification programme has been managed but I'm committed

:44:14.:44:16.

to making sure this project is delivered and the improvdments it

:44:17.:44:19.

The official position is th`t electrification is still pl`nned

:44:20.:44:24.

for lines in and out of Temple Meads and it's hoped it

:44:25.:44:28.

But with all the new trains being converted to also run on didsel

:44:29.:44:34.

given the fact that electric trains could actually couldn't acttally run

:44:35.:44:37.

any faster on the twisting tracks around Bristol,

:44:38.:44:40.

many experts have told me they don't electrification

:44:41.:44:42.

I think it's rather ironic that Bristol was a green city in 201 ,

:44:43.:44:48.

green city of Europe, and yet they don't have a

:44:49.:44:51.

Bristol people should be very unhappy and they need to sedk a date

:44:52.:44:58.

when they can firmly expect to be electrified.

:44:59.:45:00.

The big timetable change with more and faster services at a London

:45:01.:45:04.

A decade after electrificathon was first launched.

:45:05.:45:12.

James, delivering electrification was a key government promisd.

:45:13.:45:16.

It would appear that Network Rail and the DFT have made a real mess

:45:17.:45:24.

It's not just about the journey times from Paddington

:45:25.:45:31.

to Bristol Temple Meads because I accept bimodal tr`ins

:45:32.:45:34.

will probably go the last fdw miles between Bath and Bristol

:45:35.:45:37.

at just the same speed as an electric one word.

:45:38.:45:41.

Actually, the really big impact here is the deferral of parts

:45:42.:45:45.

of the electrification programme in the Thames Valley means

:45:46.:45:48.

that the rolling stock that should have been coming down

:45:49.:45:50.

from the Thames Valley to sort out capacity issues here in Bristol

:45:51.:45:54.

won't come which means that down in Devon and Cornwall they won't get

:45:55.:45:58.

the rolling stock we have here to sort out their capacity

:45:59.:46:01.

This is a huge problem that has knock-on effects across our region

:46:02.:46:05.

and I am really angry that we find ourselves in this position.

:46:06.:46:10.

Just remind me who owns Network Rail.

:46:11.:46:16.

You interrupted me just as I was about to say it.

:46:17.:46:20.

And I'm angry at the Department for Transport.

:46:21.:46:22.

I have made that clear in Parliament.

:46:23.:46:24.

Network Rail is owned by the government?

:46:25.:46:27.

In that case can you explain why they are not pushing forward

:46:28.:46:31.

and carrying out what you promised in your manifesto?

:46:32.:46:35.

You showed the clip of Kerry McCartney's question

:46:36.:46:36.

in the segment before this but you know I think I have asked

:46:37.:46:41.

two questions on this in thd house this week and I've had

:46:42.:46:43.

a number of conversations with Chris Grayling as well.

:46:44.:46:46.

I think we made a very clear commitment to the south-west

:46:47.:46:48.

in our manifesto that has rdsult of electrifying the great

:46:49.:46:52.

Western Railway we would improve journey times and we would free up

:46:53.:46:55.

rolling stock to come down from the Thames Valley to ilprove

:46:56.:46:58.

I intend to hold the governlent to account for delivering that commit.

:46:59.:47:03.

George, is it a big deal can we just manage with how

:47:04.:47:06.

No, I think it is a betrayal and I think it is going

:47:07.:47:11.

You have to bear in mind th`t Bath and Bristol, Bath has

:47:12.:47:15.

5 million passengers a year going through the station.

:47:16.:47:17.

We are both positive contributors to the national economy.

:47:18.:47:25.

Part of that depends on our links with London

:47:26.:47:27.

This will have a negative economic effect.

:47:28.:47:33.

Is it something to do with local government and the political force

:47:34.:47:39.

I cant imagine Nicola Sturgdon putting up with this

:47:40.:47:54.

I had really good meetings with Sir Peter Hendy of Network Rail

:47:55.:47:58.

and with transport ministers and I was promised

:47:59.:48:00.

I knew they were going to bd delays until 2019.

:48:01.:48:03.

Now we are talking about Twenty20 for if it all.

:48:04.:48:06.

I'd do see it as broken promises.

:48:07.:48:09.

I think it's an interesting point actually.

:48:10.:48:12.

There is the Midlands engind room, that is the northern powerhouse

:48:13.:48:14.

There are brands to regional economic development elsewhdre.

:48:15.:48:17.

In the south-west we haven't quite figured out what that is.

:48:18.:48:21.

In Bristol and Bath and those on the M4 corridor seem to be

:48:22.:48:24.

Cornwall is doing something on their own.

:48:25.:48:38.

This isn't to excuse the government and Network Rail's failure hn this

:48:39.:48:42.

area, but maybe if as a penhnsular we had a clearer sense of ptrpose,

:48:43.:48:46.

a clearer sense of collective identity we might find we are able

:48:47.:48:49.

to make a pitch that is mord compelling to ministers

:48:50.:48:51.

At the end of the day, the costs are huge and they have

:48:52.:48:55.

overrun but in the general scheme of things we are a rich country

:48:56.:48:58.

Surely we should be able to electrified line

:48:59.:49:00.

You would think so and I thhnk notwithstanding the carbon hssue

:49:01.:49:04.

or the carbon benefits of h`ving electrified actually

:49:05.:49:06.

there is an economic benefit in doing so as well and as we get

:49:07.:49:09.

the Westwood link from the great Western Railway into Heathrow

:49:10.:49:11.

all of these things that will unlock our region as a place

:49:12.:49:14.

to inwardly invest, we just have to do them.

:49:15.:49:18.

We did try to get Network R`il on the programme but there

:49:19.:49:26.

Now, Theresa May might have been ninth on his list of world leaders

:49:27.:49:32.

to ring him when he won the presidency but Donald Trump

:49:33.:49:35.

insists he still holds a spdcial place in his heart for us

:49:36.:49:38.

Robert Markwell has been to meet one of the privileged few to stdp

:49:39.:49:45.

As photos on your phone go Andy Wigmore's is hard to bdat.

:49:46.:49:54.

Way before any world leader he was one of the very first to pass

:49:55.:49:58.

through the gilded doors of Trump Tower.

:49:59.:50:02.

It's like walking into Tutankhamun's live home and everything is opulent

:50:03.:50:07.

It looks bling at the same time it kind of works,

:50:08.:50:27.

Mr Wigmore is head of commission is for the campaign group

:50:28.:50:33.

EU out of this south Gloucestershire call centre

:50:34.:50:36.

And after their success the now President-elect was often in touch

:50:37.:50:40.

I think he probably pressed the wrong button.

:50:41.:50:44.

He said, Andy I just want to ask a couple of things.

:50:45.:50:47.

My kids couldn't quite get their heads around it.

:50:48.:50:55.

I know it sounds bizarre but it is kind of normal with him

:50:56.:51:01.

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr Nigel Farage.

:51:02.:51:07.

Trump's prediction of delivdring what he called Brexit

:51:08.:51:09.

Both campaigns have plenty in common.

:51:10.:51:15.

The parallels between Brexit and their campaign for us

:51:16.:51:19.

We borrowed some of their techniques.

:51:20.:51:22.

We used the same people and certainly I know

:51:23.:51:25.

they were monitoring everything we did forensically.

:51:26.:51:29.

Trump discovered the power of social media and what it meant.

:51:30.:51:31.

He could have a direct convdrsation with people and they could hnteract.

:51:32.:51:35.

That is an honesty about social major which he understood.

:51:36.:51:40.

So when he was outrageous hd knew the more outrageous he was the more

:51:41.:51:43.

The more attention he got the more outrageous he was.

:51:44.:51:47.

Who's going to pay for the war?

:51:48.:51:51.

We couldn't quite get our hdads around, OK it seems to work,

:51:52.:51:58.

it worked and the more outr`geous we were the more attention we got

:51:59.:52:01.

He this litre gets to the most extreme level.

:52:02.:52:07.

I don't think we were as bolbastic as he was but we

:52:08.:52:10.

Many are still reeling from Trump's surprise when.

:52:11.:52:15.

The ex-mayor of Bristol George Ferguson flew the US

:52:16.:52:17.

But is it politicians who are the ones who are

:52:18.:52:22.

I think the great thing about Brexit and Trump,

:52:23.:52:26.

it's the change in the world dynamic of politics.

:52:27.:52:29.

It's very much that they want to be heard and they don't

:52:30.:52:37.

want the political classes to ignore them.

:52:38.:52:38.

Mr Wigmore together with a millionaire businesslan

:52:39.:52:44.

Aaron Banks are the self-stxled bad boys of Brexit and their tile

:52:45.:52:47.

in the political spotlight hs far from over after pouring ?8 lillion

:52:48.:52:51.

of his own money into the rdferendum Mr Banks is now funding to PC's

:52:52.:52:54.

to examine the details of the Article 50 case.

:52:55.:53:00.

He also unveiled plans this week to drain what he called the swamp

:53:01.:53:03.

He set aside ?10 million to fund up to 200 parliamentary candid`tes

:53:04.:53:09.

who might run against what he calls lazy, ineffective and corrupt MPs.

:53:10.:53:15.

He also wants to abolish thd House of Lords and set a minimum `ge

:53:16.:53:18.

limit of 40 for anyone running for the Commons.

:53:19.:53:22.

We have got a little list and we think it

:53:23.:53:25.

Whether or not that happens we don't know

:53:26.:53:29.

You can't ignore some of what we have to say.

:53:30.:53:36.

This special relationship goes on with both Andy Wigmore

:53:37.:53:38.

and Bristol businessmen Aaron Banks due to be guests of honour

:53:39.:53:41.

at President Trump's inauguration in January.

:53:42.:53:46.

What you make of Trump Tower and the internal decoration?

:53:47.:53:53.

I think it's a vulgar, ritzy and American greed

:53:54.:53:55.

at its worst and I wrote th`t in 1988 having been there.

:53:56.:53:59.

The reason the flag is flying at half-mast is because I sde it

:54:00.:54:08.

The American dream that anyone who comes to America

:54:09.:54:11.

Clearly the words and I do believe the words sadly,

:54:12.:54:25.

the words against immigrants in America have been very d`maging.

:54:26.:54:28.

Having said that, he obviously plugged in to a feeling in liddle

:54:29.:54:31.

America and perhaps elsewhere as the Brexit the beloved and.

:54:32.:54:35.

They are looking after the little guy.

:54:36.:54:38.

In a way that the big polithcal parties haven't done.

:54:39.:54:43.

He actually got a minority of the vote as you know and Clinton

:54:44.:54:47.

So America has got a very strange system.

:54:48.:54:51.

I think what he has done is extremely damaging.

:54:52.:54:55.

This is all part of the post Brexit, post-truth movement and I think

:54:56.:54:58.

Trump is not necessarily to my taste.

:54:59.:55:08.

I would not have voted for him if I had been given the chohce

:55:09.:55:17.

between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton but he did just

:55:18.:55:19.

win an election and I think those of us who don't want to accdpt that

:55:20.:55:23.

or need to be careful about the criticism they potr

:55:24.:55:27.

on Donald Trump when he thrdatened not to accept the result.

:55:28.:55:29.

I have a lot of respect for George but flying the American flag

:55:30.:55:33.

at half-mast, I mean American democracy made

:55:34.:55:35.

a decision and they have elected their president.

:55:36.:55:37.

Whether he is to our taste or not, he won.

:55:38.:55:40.

Whatever his views on minorities and so on?

:55:41.:55:43.

We as a nation don't get a vote in the United States

:55:44.:55:46.

Of course, if he goes on to enact things that we find to be

:55:47.:55:53.

unacceptable, for example going away from climate change, banning Muslims

:55:54.:55:57.

from visiting his country, we will have responsibility as part

:55:58.:56:00.

of the international communhty to challenge him over that.

:56:01.:56:04.

But ultimately America is a sovereign nation,

:56:05.:56:07.

they have democratic process and they have

:56:08.:56:09.

Americans in this country h`ve been very supportive

:56:10.:56:12.

of what I did and they felt I was speaking for them.

:56:13.:56:15.

I've had a lot of contact on social media backing it.

:56:16.:56:20.

It was just a statement, as I made when I bought that flag

:56:21.:56:27.

That just move on to the wider issues and the visit

:56:28.:56:33.

by Aaron Backes, the local businessman who is funding ` lot

:56:34.:56:36.

of the Brexit campaign and his assistant Mr Wigmord.

:56:37.:56:41.

You think it would be a good idea to have less the abilities

:56:42.:56:44.

of Mr Farr Raj to build a bridge between us and the United States?

:56:45.:56:50.

No I don't because I think Nigel Farage has an agenda

:56:51.:56:57.

and political allegiance that is very clear and I suspect

:56:58.:57:00.

that any such role would be rather it useful to his own

:57:01.:57:03.

However, it's very clear from what we've seen from the way

:57:04.:57:08.

Donald Trump has interacted with Nigel Farage we would do well

:57:09.:57:11.

to learn from that and get hnvolved as quickly as we can.

:57:12.:57:15.

The next scheme Mr Banks has got is to find up to 200 candid`tes

:57:16.:57:18.

to drain what they call the swamp of people they don't think

:57:19.:57:21.

a suitable to be MPs, including those actually

:57:22.:57:23.

I don't know how old you are.

:57:24.:57:33.

You so you wouldn't even be able to stand under those rules.

:57:34.:57:39.

I loved watching that PR man in his nice office with the very

:57:40.:57:42.

posh suit looking very well,kept pontificating over that.

:57:43.:57:46.

I have done three combat totrs of Iraq and Afghanistan and direct

:57:47.:57:49.

and I've got an experience that has something to offer.

:57:50.:57:52.

You have to be very careful about saying things like th`t,

:57:53.:57:54.

especially from your perch as a millionaire

:57:55.:57:56.

I think it's up to him but H hate the way money is buying

:57:57.:58:04.

Very bad Americanisation of our politics.

:58:05.:58:13.

Time now for our round-up of the week in just 60 seconds.

:58:14.:58:25.

Ofsted issued a damning report about Swindon schools.

:58:26.:58:28.

It said they were the cause of serious concern and that

:58:29.:58:31.

children in the town were being failed at every level.

:58:32.:58:34.

Headteachers and the council say the criticisms were overly harsh.

:58:35.:58:38.

To give a one-sided view out straight to the media

:58:39.:58:40.

and the parents is dangerous and is not helpful and it whll worry

:58:41.:58:44.

230 jobs are set to go at the GKN factory in Yeovil.

:58:45.:58:50.

The firm announced it would close the plant that makes helicopter

:58:51.:58:52.

We are doing all we can to try to look at lateral

:58:53.:58:58.

thinking to try to make sure there is a future

:58:59.:59:00.

In Bath the Tories strengthdned the control on the council

:59:01.:59:05.

by picking up the seat from the Greens in a by-election.

:59:06.:59:08.

And plans to roll-out a of buses powered by human waste have

:59:09.:59:11.

The first is in Bristol had a trial this vehicle on the aptly

:59:12.:59:18.

The government flushed away hopes when it refused to spend a penny

:59:19.:59:22.

Just coming up, the Autumn Statement next week.

:59:23.:59:32.

That is when the government announces how much it's

:59:33.:59:34.

James, what they want the money to be used for?

:59:35.:59:41.

Broadband, railway, roads, mobile networks, our energy system.

:59:42.:59:50.

All of those things will drhve productivity and it

:59:51.:59:52.

That is what Mr Trump is suggesting of course

:59:53.:59:56.

Clean energy and devolution to the city regions.

:59:57.:00:01.

That is all we have time for this week.

:00:02.:00:09.

Now it's time to return to London and Andrew.

:00:10.:00:16.

And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in

:00:17.:00:19.

Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been

:00:20.:00:33.

touring the television studios this morning.

:00:34.:00:35.

Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press

:00:36.:00:41.

As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only

:00:42.:00:44.

seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.

:00:45.:00:47.

So a lot of this will be a repeat of what

:00:48.:00:50.

I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on

:00:51.:00:54.

We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might

:00:55.:00:59.

imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow

:01:00.:01:02.

hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.

:01:03.:01:06.

That simply doesn't exist if we're going to

:01:07.:01:10.

retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets

:01:11.:01:12.

if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to

:01:13.:01:17.

We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this

:01:18.:01:30.

morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things

:01:31.:01:38.

like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an

:01:39.:01:44.

infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it

:01:45.:01:48.

was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is

:01:49.:01:57.

the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think

:01:58.:02:01.

there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot

:02:02.:02:05.

set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do

:02:06.:02:10.

is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are

:02:11.:02:18.

-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how

:02:19.:02:27.

they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about

:02:28.:02:30.

the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit

:02:31.:02:35.

until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of

:02:36.:02:46.

Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how

:02:47.:02:49.

Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury

:02:50.:02:52.

comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and

:02:53.:02:57.

collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the

:02:58.:03:04.

economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot

:03:05.:03:10.

say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to

:03:11.:03:13.

take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the

:03:14.:03:18.

Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,

:03:19.:03:21.

and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the

:03:22.:03:27.

Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and

:03:28.:03:32.

spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is

:03:33.:03:36.

a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office

:03:37.:03:41.

for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions

:03:42.:03:45.

there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from

:03:46.:03:53.

Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the

:03:54.:03:56.

referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a

:03:57.:03:59.

way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you

:04:00.:04:06.

were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I

:04:07.:04:14.

say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.

:04:15.:04:18.

I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to

:04:19.:04:26.

build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see

:04:27.:04:36.

them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would

:04:37.:04:41.

suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just

:04:42.:04:45.

managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that

:04:46.:04:53.

simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.

:04:54.:05:00.

These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With

:05:01.:05:04.

income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly

:05:05.:05:08.

expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of

:05:09.:05:12.

that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after

:05:13.:05:19.

pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are

:05:20.:05:25.

people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the

:05:26.:05:30.

number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their

:05:31.:05:35.

pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,

:05:36.:05:39.

and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just

:05:40.:05:45.

managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are

:05:46.:05:54.

talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so

:05:55.:06:00.

the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple

:06:01.:06:04.

of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it

:06:05.:06:08.

will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing

:06:09.:06:15.

people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,

:06:16.:06:24.

because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow

:06:25.:06:31.

Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed

:06:32.:06:36.

in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is

:06:37.:06:39.

about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for

:06:40.:06:43.

governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for

:06:44.:06:47.

labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need

:06:48.:06:52.

a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the

:06:53.:06:56.

deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond

:06:57.:07:02.

did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given

:07:03.:07:05.

himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it

:07:06.:07:10.

will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is

:07:11.:07:16.

the next political earthquake going to happen?

:07:17.:07:22.

It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring

:07:23.:07:29.

Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next

:07:30.:07:32.

year's French Presidential elections?

:07:33.:07:33.

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

:07:34.:07:34.

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

:07:35.:07:37.

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

:07:38.:07:39.

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

:07:40.:07:42.

Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.

:07:43.:07:47.

Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former

:07:48.:08:00.

prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not

:08:01.:08:04.

clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting

:08:05.:08:08.

race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It

:08:09.:08:22.

is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all

:08:23.:08:25.

the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated

:08:26.:08:30.

by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination

:08:31.:08:36.

there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In

:08:37.:08:42.

other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration

:08:43.:08:47.

and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to

:08:48.:08:51.

appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third

:08:52.:08:57.

candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few

:08:58.:09:00.

days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on

:09:01.:09:06.

television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all

:09:07.:09:10.

surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a

:09:11.:09:16.

British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the

:09:17.:09:20.

first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.

:09:21.:09:27.

We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is

:09:28.:09:31.

fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right

:09:32.:09:35.

party is likely to be the next president, and who the next

:09:36.:09:39.

president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit

:09:40.:09:42.

negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then

:09:43.:09:46.

after the German elections in October. I would add one more

:09:47.:09:52.

constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop

:09:53.:10:00.

Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the

:10:01.:10:09.

run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done

:10:10.:10:14.

There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three

:10:15.:10:19.

centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit

:10:20.:10:24.

and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it

:10:25.:10:33.

is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of

:10:34.:10:40.

marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out

:10:41.:10:44.

of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does

:10:45.:10:47.

not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was

:10:48.:10:51.

suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next

:10:52.:10:54.

time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the

:10:55.:10:58.

most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if

:10:59.:11:05.

you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he

:11:06.:11:09.

goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen

:11:10.:11:13.

go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that

:11:14.:11:21.

a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have

:11:22.:11:27.

to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do

:11:28.:11:33.

it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential

:11:34.:11:45.

Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on

:11:46.:11:48.

the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of

:11:49.:11:54.

French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise

:11:55.:11:58.

the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic

:11:59.:12:13.

policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French

:12:14.:12:21.

elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate

:12:22.:12:29.

are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running

:12:30.:12:31.

against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist

:12:32.:12:34.

economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise

:12:35.:12:40.

the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not

:12:41.:12:48.

classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.

:12:49.:12:52.

And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an

:12:53.:12:57.

effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the

:12:58.:13:03.

socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We

:13:04.:13:11.

will see what they come up with this time.

:13:12.:13:13.

The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,

:13:14.:13:18.

where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn

:13:19.:13:24.

But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:25.:13:33.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS