11/12/2016 Sunday Politics West


11/12/2016

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

:00:41.:00:43.

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

:00:44.:00:47.

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

:00:48.:00:51.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

:00:52.:00:53.

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

:00:54.:00:57.

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

:00:58.:01:09.

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

:01:10.:01:12.

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

:01:13.:01:15.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

:01:16.:01:17.

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

:01:18.:01:19.

Corbynite Ken Livingstone and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

:01:20.:01:24.

And in the West, the library is on borrowed time.

:01:25.:01:27.

Ten Swindon branches have had their funding removed as

:01:28.:01:29.

the council struggles to balance its books.

:01:30.:01:48.

think of it as an early Christmas present from us.

:01:49.:01:52.

We guarantee you won't be disappointed.

:01:53.:01:53.

And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined

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by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.

:01:56.:01:57.

It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.

:01:58.:02:00.

So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some

:02:01.:02:07.

of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.

:02:08.:02:13.

But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this

:02:14.:02:19.

morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts

:02:20.:02:22.

from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning

:02:23.:02:24.

the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.

:02:25.:02:30.

Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

:02:31.:02:34.

and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation

:02:35.:02:37.

She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning

:02:38.:02:43.

Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair

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She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart

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Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week

:02:57.:03:06.

But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary

:03:07.:03:10.

argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief

:03:11.:03:12.

She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing

:03:13.:03:21.

for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation

:03:22.:03:28.

and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".

:03:29.:03:33.

The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying

:03:34.:03:35.

"If you don't like something I have said or done, please

:03:36.:03:38.

If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."

:03:39.:03:52.

Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.

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And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see

:03:58.:04:01.

in our film shortly, has now been formally banned

:04:02.:04:03.

So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying

:04:04.:04:20.

tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says

:04:21.:04:23.

something about British politics today, that this is the most

:04:24.:04:27.

important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are

:04:28.:04:30.

not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they

:04:31.:04:33.

don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being

:04:34.:04:38.

spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street

:04:39.:04:43.

with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet

:04:44.:04:46.

Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row

:04:47.:04:54.

over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,

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she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten

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you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the

:05:07.:05:14.

high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.

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You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky

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Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul

:05:25.:05:30.

as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.

:05:31.:05:35.

Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they

:05:36.:05:39.

are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in

:05:40.:05:44.

which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's

:05:45.:05:51.

entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is

:05:52.:05:55.

genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she

:05:56.:05:59.

chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that

:06:00.:06:03.

journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life

:06:04.:06:08.

works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the

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Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney

:06:13.:06:16.

and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government

:06:17.:06:21.

department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold

:06:22.:06:25.

together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the

:06:26.:06:28.

whole Government like one department. This is just the start,

:06:29.:06:34.

Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,

:06:35.:06:40.

The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most

:06:41.:06:45.

to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if

:06:46.:06:49.

it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was

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split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used

:06:55.:07:00.

to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down

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the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert

:07:06.:07:08.

the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a

:07:09.:07:13.

self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it

:07:14.:07:16.

comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do

:07:17.:07:22.

you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own

:07:23.:07:28.

wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is

:07:29.:07:32.

that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen

:07:33.:07:35.

polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,

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a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any

:07:43.:07:46.

money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself

:07:47.:07:49.

comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted

:07:50.:07:57.

with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most

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exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that

:08:01.:08:06.

British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain

:08:07.:08:11.

lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at

:08:12.:08:18.

being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split

:08:19.:08:22.

between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that

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sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the

:08:26.:08:31.

1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.

:08:32.:08:35.

The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of

:08:36.:08:39.

pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.

:08:40.:08:45.

So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price

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of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.

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And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire

:08:50.:08:52.

the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say

:08:53.:08:54.

about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead

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of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,

:08:58.:08:58.

it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.

:08:59.:09:00.

While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated

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Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting

:09:11.:09:12.

on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.

:09:13.:09:15.

Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government

:09:16.:09:17.

basically got its way, but it did provide a platform

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for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,

:09:20.:09:25.

We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level

:09:26.:09:34.

of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners

:09:35.:09:36.

that want to thwart the will of the people,

:09:37.:09:40.

go back on it and that we don't accept the result.

:09:41.:09:44.

I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people

:09:45.:09:49.

It's not good enough that these things are dragged

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out of the Government by opposition day motions.

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I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking

:09:55.:09:57.

Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents

:09:58.:10:02.

I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head

:10:03.:10:10.

above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,

:10:11.:10:13.

you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.

:10:14.:10:16.

I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank

:10:17.:10:18.

you for what you are doing, party members around

:10:19.:10:21.

the country saying thank you for what you are doing

:10:22.:10:23.

and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.

:10:24.:10:27.

I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,

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you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak

:10:30.:10:32.

opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised

:10:33.:10:34.

on before we embark on such a huge issue.

:10:35.:10:42.

Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's

:10:43.:10:44.

side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that

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if you don't stand up for what you believe in,

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I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.

:10:51.:10:56.

That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local

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party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses

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Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association

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she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support

:11:08.:11:09.

the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that

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and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people

:11:13.:11:15.

who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government

:11:16.:11:17.

The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP

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and we want to see a Conservative government being

:11:22.:11:23.

I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get

:11:24.:11:31.

on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,

:11:32.:11:34.

Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see

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how her stance is going down with the voters.

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If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does

:11:40.:11:41.

Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,

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especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU

:11:48.:11:50.

so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.

:11:51.:11:53.

She should stick for what she believes in,

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but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...

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She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted

:11:58.:12:13.

to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,

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depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.

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Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street

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this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.

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Although now we know not everyone is invited.

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And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday

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was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted

:12:40.:12:42.

against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end

:12:43.:12:44.

of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.

:12:45.:12:48.

Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David

:12:49.:12:53.

Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new

:12:54.:12:59.

leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to

:13:00.:13:02.

deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't

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speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious

:13:10.:13:14.

interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but

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somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman

:13:20.:13:23.

which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and

:13:24.:13:26.

said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger

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ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only

:13:33.:13:38.

serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a

:13:39.:13:40.

difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,

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your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more

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in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it

:13:50.:13:55.

not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not

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Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,

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she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting

:14:04.:14:06.

out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for

:14:07.:14:09.

being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it

:14:10.:14:14.

wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the

:14:15.:14:18.

national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid

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throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and

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my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party

:14:28.:14:30.

throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion

:14:31.:14:35.

on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to

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Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my

:14:41.:14:44.

reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national

:14:45.:14:49.

interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of

:14:50.:14:56.

course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you

:14:57.:15:01.

think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it

:15:02.:15:08.

40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you

:15:09.:15:11.

have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,

:15:12.:15:14.

they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have

:15:15.:15:18.

been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.

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That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are

:15:31.:15:37.

living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and

:15:38.:15:43.

the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's

:15:44.:15:47.

trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we

:15:48.:15:51.

need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a

:15:52.:15:56.

leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis

:15:57.:16:00.

upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the

:16:01.:16:03.

others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than

:16:04.:16:08.

any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.

:16:09.:16:14.

What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our

:16:15.:16:18.

children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need

:16:19.:16:28.

Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of

:16:29.:16:34.

negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to

:16:35.:16:39.

run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted

:16:40.:16:42.

in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister

:16:43.:16:48.

sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that

:16:49.:16:52.

your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons

:16:53.:16:56.

think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum

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campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were

:17:01.:17:05.

completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.

:17:06.:17:11.

Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I

:17:12.:17:16.

have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so

:17:17.:17:19.

just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a

:17:20.:17:25.

minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan

:17:26.:17:30.

Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with

:17:31.:17:33.

that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were

:17:34.:17:37.

going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and

:17:38.:17:43.

tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How

:17:44.:17:51.

long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will

:17:52.:17:59.

survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a

:18:00.:18:05.

heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you

:18:06.:18:11.

think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has

:18:12.:18:18.

always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in

:18:19.:18:22.

a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does

:18:23.:18:29.

he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to

:18:30.:18:33.

forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there

:18:34.:18:37.

will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten

:18:38.:18:45.

years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of

:18:46.:18:48.

his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward

:18:49.:18:53.

is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which

:18:54.:18:58.

all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet

:18:59.:19:02.

papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get

:19:03.:19:10.

down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry

:19:11.:19:13.

to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film

:19:14.:19:21.

that a number of constituency members in those areas which are

:19:22.:19:27.

strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was

:19:28.:19:33.

Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.

:19:34.:19:37.

What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects

:19:38.:19:43.

their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very

:19:44.:19:49.

grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because

:19:50.:19:57.

you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great

:19:58.:20:02.

fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on

:20:03.:20:06.

everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've

:20:07.:20:10.

always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying

:20:11.:20:14.

what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and

:20:15.:20:22.

then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised

:20:23.:20:26.

if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the

:20:27.:20:30.

policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say

:20:31.:20:38.

you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing

:20:39.:20:43.

Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't

:20:44.:20:48.

been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my

:20:49.:20:51.

colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that

:20:52.:20:58.

haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have

:20:59.:21:05.

been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well

:21:06.:21:09.

with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's

:21:10.:21:12.

much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street

:21:13.:21:18.

has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm

:21:19.:21:23.

glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what

:21:24.:21:27.

they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm

:21:28.:21:32.

not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still

:21:33.:21:38.

have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.

:21:39.:21:49.

That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really

:21:50.:21:56.

grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will

:21:57.:22:02.

have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument

:22:03.:22:06.

about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to

:22:07.:22:14.

keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be

:22:15.:22:21.

deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's

:22:22.:22:27.

relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this

:22:28.:22:32.

Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you

:22:33.:22:36.

for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever

:22:37.:22:37.

criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn

:22:38.:22:41.

against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,

:22:42.:22:43.

but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,

:22:44.:22:46.

or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result

:22:47.:22:48.

for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping

:22:49.:22:52.

for an early Christmas present at this week's

:22:53.:22:54.

contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,

:22:55.:22:56.

a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,

:22:57.:23:05.

there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second

:23:06.:23:07.

in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better

:23:08.:23:11.

performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,

:23:12.:23:14.

where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting

:23:15.:23:18.

fewer voters than the reported number of local

:23:19.:23:20.

Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this

:23:21.:23:24.

week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major

:23:25.:23:29.

issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity

:23:30.:23:34.

is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers

:23:35.:23:46.

were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote

:23:47.:23:49.

against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU

:23:50.:23:58.

by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've

:23:59.:24:01.

spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs

:24:02.:24:04.

the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,

:24:05.:24:07.

or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,

:24:08.:24:09.

eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,

:24:10.:24:13.

a national poll released on Friday put Labour

:24:14.:24:15.

at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy

:24:16.:24:18.

for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories

:24:19.:24:24.

under his leadership, including a by-election win

:24:25.:24:27.

in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a

:24:28.:24:29.

Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack

:24:30.:24:35.

of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having

:24:36.:24:39.

failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,

:24:40.:24:42.

what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played

:24:43.:24:52.

down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour

:24:53.:24:57.

Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic

:24:58.:25:01.

party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current

:25:02.:25:05.

leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in

:25:06.:25:09.

the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.

:25:10.:25:13.

And we're joined now by the former mayor

:25:14.:25:15.

of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow

:25:16.:25:17.

Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from

:25:18.:25:25.

second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its

:25:26.:25:30.

deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in

:25:31.:25:37.

this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters

:25:38.:25:45.

switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings

:25:46.:25:52.

that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is

:25:53.:25:57.

like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the

:25:58.:26:01.

Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win

:26:02.:26:11.

tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with

:26:12.:26:14.

the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,

:26:15.:26:20.

but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the

:26:21.:26:24.

national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells

:26:25.:26:29.

going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I

:26:30.:26:33.

think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a

:26:34.:26:38.

plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are

:26:39.:26:41.

going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard

:26:42.:26:47.

Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.

:26:48.:26:53.

When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.

:26:54.:26:58.

John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a

:26:59.:27:05.

massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory

:27:06.:27:10.

governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a

:27:11.:27:15.

disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if

:27:16.:27:19.

Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the

:27:20.:27:24.

EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year

:27:25.:27:29.

and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we

:27:30.:27:34.

are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic

:27:35.:27:40.

disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew

:27:41.:27:43.

the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why

:27:44.:27:48.

are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points

:27:49.:27:54.

behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating

:27:55.:27:58.

went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an

:27:59.:28:04.

election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not

:28:05.:28:08.

grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it

:28:09.:28:13.

will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic

:28:14.:28:17.

alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible

:28:18.:28:23.

economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand

:28:24.:28:28.

basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a

:28:29.:28:31.

commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It

:28:32.:28:39.

is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,

:28:40.:28:42.

particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back

:28:43.:28:48.

and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative

:28:49.:28:53.

manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to

:28:54.:28:57.

the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the

:28:58.:29:00.

broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an

:29:01.:29:07.

MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not

:29:08.:29:11.

going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a

:29:12.:29:16.

couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from

:29:17.:29:19.

Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And

:29:20.:29:25.

I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part

:29:26.:29:31.

of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted

:29:32.:29:37.

to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you

:29:38.:29:42.

don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other

:29:43.:29:46.

27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,

:29:47.:29:54.

why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't

:29:55.:29:56.

think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to

:29:57.:30:07.

get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps

:30:08.:30:11.

millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say

:30:12.:30:17.

we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all

:30:18.:30:21.

Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would

:30:22.:30:26.

suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories

:30:27.:30:30.

are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a

:30:31.:30:35.

bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut

:30:36.:30:39.

through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us

:30:40.:30:44.

that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a

:30:45.:30:50.

33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of

:30:51.:30:55.

the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to

:30:56.:30:58.

make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and

:30:59.:31:06.

not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or

:31:07.:31:12.

whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox

:31:13.:31:22.

fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18

:31:23.:31:26.

months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.

:31:27.:31:33.

The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You

:31:34.:31:36.

weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you

:31:37.:31:39.

have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting

:31:40.:31:43.

rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of

:31:44.:31:48.

policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to

:31:49.:31:51.

govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The

:31:52.:31:57.

idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like

:31:58.:32:02.

takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,

:32:03.:32:06.

yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this

:32:07.:32:11.

summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of

:32:12.:32:19.

the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I

:32:20.:32:23.

want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have

:32:24.:32:29.

got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio

:32:30.:32:33.

at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more

:32:34.:32:39.

money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums

:32:40.:32:43.

add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.

:32:44.:32:48.

They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour

:32:49.:32:53.

Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..

:32:54.:33:02.

Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid

:33:03.:33:05.

off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace

:33:06.:33:12.

compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is

:33:13.:33:16.

decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a

:33:17.:33:21.

society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just

:33:22.:33:25.

the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to

:33:26.:33:27.

contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public

:33:28.:33:31.

are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in

:33:32.:33:36.

the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out

:33:37.:33:40.

clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these

:33:41.:33:46.

things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money

:33:47.:33:54.

through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150

:33:55.:34:00.

billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier

:34:01.:34:06.

estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR

:34:07.:34:10.

programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can

:34:11.:34:16.

say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we

:34:17.:34:22.

will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just

:34:23.:34:26.

checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do

:34:27.:34:32.

you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn

:34:33.:34:35.

round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get

:34:36.:34:41.

worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we

:34:42.:34:44.

would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will

:34:45.:34:49.

knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill

:34:50.:34:55.

Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going

:34:56.:34:58.

to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise

:34:59.:35:01.

they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the

:35:02.:35:06.

Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans

:35:07.:35:11.

that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in

:35:12.:35:17.

12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will

:35:18.:35:21.

hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for

:35:22.:35:28.

the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do

:35:29.:35:33.

they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to

:35:34.:35:38.

bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your

:35:39.:35:43.

party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we

:35:44.:35:49.

have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the

:35:50.:35:52.

opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good

:35:53.:35:56.

enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the

:35:57.:35:59.

Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and

:36:00.:36:04.

on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending

:36:05.:36:08.

national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian

:36:09.:36:12.

intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now

:36:13.:36:17.

in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be

:36:18.:36:22.

able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are

:36:23.:36:26.

heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the

:36:27.:36:30.

war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the

:36:31.:36:34.

last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the

:36:35.:36:37.

way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we

:36:38.:36:43.

used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is

:36:44.:36:46.

in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually

:36:47.:36:49.

getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.

:36:50.:36:54.

Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.

:36:55.:36:58.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:59.:37:01.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:02.:37:03.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking

:37:04.:37:06.

about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying

:37:07.:37:09.

off message, again, and the protestors attempting

:37:10.:37:10.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:37:11.:37:24.

Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics here in the West.

:37:25.:37:26.

Think of us as an oasis of calm away from the stresses

:37:27.:37:29.

Coming up, we'll be looking at the raft of libraries

:37:30.:37:33.

This week, Swindon removed all the funding for two

:37:34.:37:37.

Critics say it's the biggest cut not just in our country,

:37:38.:37:40.

Libraries are fast becoming Theresa May's equivalent

:37:41.:37:50.

You know, this is a short-term economic policy that's

:37:51.:37:54.

giving long-term damage to our children's futures.

:37:55.:37:55.

Now, in the studio this week, we have a legal eagle and eight

:37:56.:38:05.

-- Now, in the studio this week we have a legal eagle

:38:06.:38:08.

They are the barrister turned Swindon MP, that's Robert Buckland.

:38:09.:38:12.

And the regional secretary for the public services union

:38:13.:38:14.

You're the Solicitor General, Robert, as you probably know.

:38:15.:38:18.

So, the big story this week has been what has been

:38:19.:38:21.

going on in the Supreme Court and how Brexit should be triggered.

:38:22.:38:24.

Well, we have had the argument and now the Supreme Court justices

:38:25.:38:30.

are going to go away and considered judgment which we'll

:38:31.:38:32.

I think it's best that we wait to see the outcome of the case,

:38:33.:38:36.

and then the government will make its decision

:38:37.:38:38.

accordingly in terms of what the court determines.

:38:39.:38:41.

But I think we'll get to the triggering of Article

:38:42.:38:44.

50 by the end of March as the Prime Minister's promised.

:38:45.:38:46.

Well, I think the big issues here about the role of government,

:38:47.:38:51.

I think it's important that these issues are at

:38:52.:38:56.

And I'm confident that the independent judiciary

:38:57.:39:01.

And I think that should help not just in this case,

:39:02.:39:09.

but help more generally an understanding

:39:10.:39:10.

They've been taking a lot of stick for this suggestion even that MPs

:39:11.:39:15.

should be able to have a say over triggering of the article.

:39:16.:39:20.

How will you vote if MPs do have a say over

:39:21.:39:32.

How will you vote if MPs do have a say?

:39:33.:39:35.

Yeah, I was a Remainer, I campaigned actively for it.

:39:36.:39:39.

I understand that things have changed.

:39:40.:39:41.

You would vote against your conscience?

:39:42.:39:44.

I would abide by the clear view of the British people.

:39:45.:39:47.

I'm a democrat at the end of it and I have to abide

:39:48.:39:50.

Well, whatever my personal view is, we asked the British

:39:51.:39:55.

They did, now we've got to get on with it.

:39:56.:39:58.

Well, I'm really interested in what the clear view

:39:59.:40:01.

Because I think on the 23rd of June, the people voted in effect to move

:40:02.:40:06.

house, out of the house that was the EU.

:40:07.:40:08.

And now what I think we want to know is, what kind

:40:09.:40:11.

Will there be any free movement of people?

:40:12.:40:16.

We we still have some of the regulations, some

:40:17.:40:18.

And the response that we're getting is, frankly,

:40:19.:40:21.

if it wasn't so serious, it would be funny.

:40:22.:40:23.

To be told that Brexit means Brexit, when Brexit wasn't even

:40:24.:40:26.

Or that Brexit will be red, white and blue.

:40:27.:40:29.

But if you were in the Commons, would you say the people got that

:40:30.:40:33.

wrong in my opinion, so I'm going to vote

:40:34.:40:35.

I think I would say the people have voted to open negotiations.

:40:36.:40:40.

I think the government should be really clear in those negotiations,

:40:41.:40:42.

To suggest that somehow keeping it secret will help,

:40:43.:40:45.

it's not a boxing match where if you land a punch

:40:46.:40:48.

It's actually a set of negotiations where you should

:40:49.:40:51.

Don't forget, the government have said they are going to publish

:40:52.:40:55.

their position ahead of any negotiations.

:40:56.:40:57.

The debate that we can have, the detail, will come

:40:58.:41:00.

Now, the way police in Wiltshire and elsewhere investigate

:41:01.:41:13.

historical child abuse has been condemned by a former MP

:41:14.:41:15.

Tessa Munt, who represented Wells until last year,

:41:16.:41:18.

says it is vital work but has been badly handled.

:41:19.:41:21.

It comes after Wiltshire's Chief Constable made an outspoken defence

:41:22.:41:23.

of his force's enquiry into allegations about the former

:41:24.:41:25.

Could a British Prime Minister have been a sexual predator?

:41:26.:41:34.

The late Edward Heath is among many public figures investigated.

:41:35.:41:36.

It's four years since Jimmy Savile's crimes were revealed.

:41:37.:41:39.

That precipitated an avalanche of allegations and action

:41:40.:41:41.

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement

:41:42.:41:52.

For one MP at Parliament that day, it was deeply personal.

:41:53.:41:59.

Tessa Munt was abused for five years from the age of 12.

:42:00.:42:02.

It was decades before she reported it.

:42:03.:42:06.

I had a horrendous six months of reliving the nightmare.

:42:07.:42:11.

But actually, I got used to saying what had happened.

:42:12.:42:17.

You know, the thing that was a nightmare for me

:42:18.:42:21.

was thinking that that person might be doing that to somebody else,

:42:22.:42:25.

and that if I had been brave enough to speak up,

:42:26.:42:28.

all that time ago, somebody else might not have suffered what I did.

:42:29.:42:33.

Today, she follows with sadness but no surprise the revelations

:42:34.:42:49.

of abuse in football, as hundreds of potential

:42:50.:42:51.

People are shocked by those statistics, but the whole world

:42:52.:42:55.

is changing, and I think there will be an understanding

:42:56.:42:58.

of the fact that it is a huge problem in our society.

:42:59.:43:01.

Ted Heath lived the last 20 years of his life in Salisbury.

:43:02.:43:14.

Last year, Wiltshire Police gathered of the media in front of his house

:43:15.:43:17.

I'm really appealing for anybody that has been a victim of crime,

:43:18.:43:26.

or witnessed anything that may have taken place involving Sir Ted Heath.

:43:27.:43:30.

Tessa Munt believes the way this, and other investigations,

:43:31.:43:33.

To choose your location as being outside his house in Salisbury,

:43:34.:43:37.

the house that he occupied in Salisbury, is just outrageous.

:43:38.:43:41.

They've behaved pretty atrociously over the whole Cliff Richard thing,

:43:42.:43:46.

You know, the police's job is to investigate,

:43:47.:43:58.

not to create some sort of media whiz around themselves and show

:43:59.:44:01.

themselves to be simply brilliant on this particular occasion

:44:02.:44:03.

because they've done the investigation.

:44:04.:44:04.

Wiltshire Police have also faced criticism for spending 16

:44:05.:44:07.

months and ?750,000, while reaching no clear conclusion.

:44:08.:44:09.

Requests for interviews were turned down.

:44:10.:44:16.

Instead, a stern Chief Constable recorded his own rebuttal.

:44:17.:44:18.

Over the last few weeks particularly, there has been much

:44:19.:44:20.

I really am very concerned and profoundly disappointed

:44:21.:44:25.

about the impact of this speculation on the public's

:44:26.:44:27.

The potential prejudicial impact on life criminal investigations,

:44:28.:44:35.

not to mention the confidence of persons who come

:44:36.:44:37.

This is not a fishing trip or witchhunt.

:44:38.:44:48.

Both of these terms have been unfairly levelled at us.

:44:49.:44:51.

The legal role of the police service is two, on the half of the public,

:44:52.:44:55.

impartially investigate allegations without fear or favour.

:44:56.:44:57.

Wiltshire's and other investigations will press on.

:44:58.:44:58.

For the sake of the victims, get it right, pleads Tessa Munt.

:44:59.:45:02.

My heart goes out to everybody who has suffered.

:45:03.:45:05.

I'm not in the slightest bit surprised at the scale of this.

:45:06.:45:09.

It's nowhere near an covering all of this.

:45:10.:45:17.

Joanne, is there any limit to how much public funds and effort should

:45:18.:45:25.

be put into investigating these sorts of cases?

:45:26.:45:27.

Well, that's a bit like asking what is the price of justice.

:45:28.:45:31.

If you look back, we saw that the Jimmy Savile case,

:45:32.:45:33.

I'm sure it cost hundreds of thousands, possibly

:45:34.:45:35.

To expose Jimmy Savile and the crimes that he committed.

:45:36.:45:53.

Are we saying that is money not well spent?

:45:54.:45:55.

I think it's important that we do investigate these crimes.

:45:56.:45:59.

But also put the resource into making sure that

:46:00.:46:01.

And making sure that we are protecting children when clearly

:46:02.:46:04.

Robert, you are quoted in one newspapers having

:46:05.:46:08.

Robert, you are quoted in one newspaper as having had a private

:46:09.:46:13.

And accusing him of going on a fishing expedition.

:46:14.:46:17.

I don't think it's right of me to make comments

:46:18.:46:22.

What I will say is that the police and the investigating authorities

:46:23.:46:25.

should follow the evidence wherever it leads.

:46:26.:46:27.

They shouldn't come to any preconceived

:46:28.:46:29.

I think it's important that that sense of impartial investigation

:46:30.:46:37.

is strongly felt from the beginning of an enquiry.

:46:38.:46:39.

Now, it's right to say as has already been said,

:46:40.:46:41.

that results should never be an obstacle to the

:46:42.:46:43.

And that's why the CPS is working extremely hard to prosecute hundreds

:46:44.:46:47.

Bringing victims some form of closure and Justice.

:46:48.:46:51.

In this case, there's 21 officers, ?750,000 spent.

:46:52.:46:53.

Wiltshire is a small force, its funding is being cut.

:46:54.:46:56.

I think the police have to follow the evidence wherever it leads.

:46:57.:47:00.

And, you know, the Chief Constable has operational decisions to make.

:47:01.:47:02.

He is close to, I hope, the evidence in this

:47:03.:47:05.

case and understand that if there is a body of evidence, it

:47:06.:47:08.

But I think it's important that we remember, you know,

:47:09.:47:11.

at the head of all these investigations, we mustn't have

:47:12.:47:25.

preconceptions about the credibility or otherwise...

:47:26.:47:27.

Do you think they have a preconception that when he stood

:47:28.:47:29.

outside Edward Heath's house and talked about victims,

:47:30.:47:31.

did that appear to be an open mind to you?

:47:32.:47:33.

I very much hope that they didn't have a preconception.

:47:34.:47:36.

I very much hope that the investigation is being conducted

:47:37.:47:38.

If you had seen that tape and you were in court,

:47:39.:47:43.

Well, it's very difficult to know what a judge would do unless you see

:47:44.:47:48.

But it's very difficult to know what the outcome of these

:47:49.:47:53.

There might be allegations that need to be followed up.

:47:54.:47:56.

What I do know is that Sir Edward Heath is long dead,

:47:57.:48:02.

and that we have a major enquiry chaired by Professor Alexis Jay

:48:03.:48:05.

And I very much hope that there is a linkup

:48:06.:48:11.

between investigations like this and the Jay enquiry to make

:48:12.:48:14.

sure that historic child abuse can be dealt with.

:48:15.:48:17.

The police have said time and time again that

:48:18.:48:19.

when you are investigating those who may have been responsible

:48:20.:48:22.

for multiple sexual offences, you do need the cooperation

:48:23.:48:25.

of a wide number of people because often, and the prosecutions

:48:26.:48:31.

that were successful depended on them finding a large

:48:32.:48:33.

number of people who had experienced the same thing

:48:34.:48:35.

I know this is speculation, but do you think it's credible that

:48:36.:48:46.

Sir Edward Heath crept out of Downing Street at night

:48:47.:48:49.

What I know about Sir Edward Heath is that he had police protection

:48:50.:48:53.

Now, if there is credible evidence out there about alleged behaviour,

:48:54.:48:58.

But what I do know, and I think we agree on this,

:48:59.:49:03.

is that where you do have a say multiple abuses,

:49:04.:49:06.

If you get, you know, publicity about one victim,

:49:07.:49:09.

The Stuart Hall case was a good example where it did actually bring

:49:10.:49:15.

Those in child protection have taught that you must always

:49:16.:49:19.

entertain the possibility that whoever the person is,

:49:20.:49:21.

You cannot use your own prejudices to say this person conducted at.

:49:22.:49:38.

-- this person couldn't have done it.

:49:39.:49:40.

Your colleague in Wiltshire, James Gray, is saying that if this

:49:41.:49:45.

comes to nothing then the Chief Constable will have to go.

:49:46.:49:48.

Look, again, I don't think it's right for me to start

:49:49.:49:51.

prejudging the career of operational police officers.

:49:52.:49:53.

All right, we'll have to leave it there.

:49:54.:49:55.

When was the last time you actually used your local library?

:49:56.:49:59.

More in the West could soon end up featuring in the local history

:50:00.:50:02.

aisle, after council decisions this week.

:50:03.:50:04.

In a moment, we'll be discussing whether libraries

:50:05.:50:06.

And then the rather more polite ones.

:50:07.:50:15.

They might be quiet, but don't underestimate their passion.

:50:16.:50:24.

This is a read in, at a Swindon library that is about to fall

:50:25.:50:36.

And these are cut even the professionals say is a new level.

:50:37.:50:40.

What we're seeing in Swindon is not only some of the worst cuts closures

:50:41.:50:43.

to library services in the UK, but across most of Western Europe.

:50:44.:50:46.

What they are proposing here, you know, the European average

:50:47.:50:48.

is around one library for 15,000 people.

:50:49.:50:50.

Proposing here one library for 40,000 people.

:50:51.:50:52.

There's no way that we can deliver a comprehensive

:50:53.:50:55.

But councils are under huge financial pressure from Westminster,

:50:56.:51:04.

having to make tough choices, libraries are at risk.

:51:05.:51:06.

In Swindon, the council decided on Wednesday to withdraw funding

:51:07.:51:08.

On Tuesday in North Somerset, ?250,000 was cut from

:51:09.:51:13.

Some will be moved into children's centres to keep them open.

:51:14.:51:19.

While South Gloucestershire Council has said it wants to be the first

:51:20.:51:22.

in the country to offer an entirely self-service operation.

:51:23.:51:27.

For a glimpse of the future, I head to this place in Wiltshire,

:51:28.:51:33.

where they're already trying this idea out.

:51:34.:51:35.

You swipe yourself in, pick your book.

:51:36.:51:37.

The machines take care of the loans and returns.

:51:38.:51:39.

Where a librarian might once have shushed, now even on the days

:51:40.:51:42.

when it's not staffed, this is still functioning library.

:51:43.:51:47.

Often a on Wednesday when the library's closed

:51:48.:51:49.

and I forget that, I think, "Great, I can still do my

:51:50.:51:52.

You'll have to put yourself on the waiting list to borrow

:51:53.:51:57.

At her home near Stroud, the bestselling writer behind many

:51:58.:52:05.

a racy romance romp tells me libraries had a profound

:52:06.:52:08.

I just remember when I was young, when we went up to Yorkshire

:52:09.:52:12.

after the war and suddenly going into a public library.

:52:13.:52:14.

I mean, there were these books all round me.

:52:15.:52:18.

And what was amazing was that every kind of book I wanted to read,

:52:19.:52:21.

But also, I mean, I could take them home.

:52:22.:52:26.

She's worried future generations might not get the same chances.

:52:27.:52:29.

I mean, Swindon has a big heart, they can't be doing it, you know,

:52:30.:52:33.

They're obviously doing it because they've got

:52:34.:52:36.

But I think they could possibly keep some more open.

:52:37.:52:44.

Because it just seems to me that people need to read,

:52:45.:52:46.

If you are poor, this is a whole free world for you,

:52:47.:52:55.

The notion that libraries are some kind of welfare service,

:52:56.:53:00.

some deficit model for poorer people or isolate people, is to place

:53:01.:53:03.

libraries in the wrong place in public life.

:53:04.:53:05.

John isn't just a former Labour political strategist.

:53:06.:53:07.

He is also a former councillor and a qualified librarian.

:53:08.:53:10.

He's got a message many would want to hear.

:53:11.:53:18.

There's a lot of sentimental claptrap spoken about libraries.

:53:19.:53:21.

Fewer than four in ten adults used a library once in the last year.

:53:22.:53:24.

The decline has been setting in for more than a decade,

:53:25.:53:27.

Do you accept that politically it's very for local councillors to come

:53:28.:53:38.

out and say that a lot of libraries aren't necessary any more?

:53:39.:53:41.

If the public want libraries, they have to use them.

:53:42.:53:43.

The decline of the last decade is sending a signal to councillors

:53:44.:53:46.

that councillors would be wrong to ignore.

:53:47.:53:48.

And when the choice is between social care

:53:49.:53:50.

that is desperately needed and libraries which people aren't

:53:51.:53:53.

going to, how can you come them come the council that decides

:53:54.:53:55.

to prioritise care for older people that takes pressure

:53:56.:53:58.

off the health service, gives dignity and independence

:53:59.:53:59.

to older people in their own homes, against keeping open a service that

:54:00.:54:03.

And as pressure continues to grow, the West's councils face a choice.

:54:04.:54:12.

Do libraries need to be renewed, or are they living on borrowed time?

:54:13.:54:15.

You look after the union side of things.

:54:16.:54:19.

What do you make of this idea of having libraries

:54:20.:54:22.

I think they are very good for the people who just want to know

:54:23.:54:27.

what books they want to borrow, and they want to just go in,

:54:28.:54:31.

But people who are perhaps going to the library for the first time,

:54:32.:54:36.

My mother uses a library, and the librarian's one

:54:37.:54:42.

of her best friends and always makes recommendations, helps her,

:54:43.:54:44.

kind of calls her when something new has come in.

:54:45.:54:47.

That's going to have that same service.

:54:48.:54:51.

So it's very transactional, but it's not going to help people

:54:52.:54:54.

who perhaps are using libraries for the first time.

:54:55.:54:58.

And I think getting people to use libraries more is very important.

:54:59.:55:01.

Robert, are you proud of what Swindon council is doing?

:55:02.:55:03.

Well, they're having to deal with a very tough situation.

:55:04.:55:06.

But, you know, I'm confident that actually the majority

:55:07.:55:08.

And I'm working closely with councillors and indeed

:55:09.:55:11.

with other people with a passion for libraries in Swindon to make

:55:12.:55:19.

sure that we can develop not only our core library,

:55:20.:55:22.

but via a mutual trust option that the staff have

:55:23.:55:24.

There is a serious, concerted effort to make sure that branches that

:55:25.:55:34.

aren't within the core will stay open.

:55:35.:55:36.

So for all this talk about ten closures, I'm

:55:37.:55:38.

And I think that we can keep the network going

:55:39.:55:42.

and have a sustainable model for Swindon.

:55:43.:55:43.

Actually, I'd like us to be more ambitious for libraries.

:55:44.:55:47.

I think it's interesting that they're merging with children's

:55:48.:55:49.

But there's no reason why libraries should just be about books.

:55:50.:55:53.

They could be ways in which people can learn about the digital age.

:55:54.:55:58.

We know there's a real gap in people's digital skills.

:55:59.:56:00.

And libraries are places people learn more.

:56:01.:56:02.

If you look at libraries in schools...

:56:03.:56:03.

So a council faced with cutting social services or cutting books,

:56:04.:56:10.

Actually having the library, which is also a learning hub,

:56:11.:56:18.

but also the council one stop shop where you can come and find out

:56:19.:56:22.

What's happening in Swindon, young people who don't

:56:23.:56:25.

have the Internet at home are doing their homework

:56:26.:56:27.

Job-seekers who don't have the Internet are using

:56:28.:56:30.

I accept that the settlement is a tight one.

:56:31.:56:38.

Which is why I'm working as hard as I can to make sure the network

:56:39.:56:43.

stays open and that we have a more sustainable model for the future.

:56:44.:56:46.

Which is why the staff, councillors, all of us are working together

:56:47.:56:49.

The remaining libraries, the branch libraries,

:56:50.:56:51.

the opening hours are being cut to about 15 hours a week.

:56:52.:56:54.

Which is why I think with innovation, I think

:56:55.:56:56.

there is government funding to support innovation which I think

:56:57.:56:59.

I'd like to see longer opening hours, and more, you know,

:57:00.:57:03.

different approach to have libraries are in communities.

:57:04.:57:04.

I think that that can come from a variety of income sources,

:57:05.:57:07.

I think we need to look at shared use more.

:57:08.:57:11.

There's a lot of really interesting thinking going on in Swindon to make

:57:12.:57:14.

sure that we have a service that's fit for the future.

:57:15.:57:17.

Well, I don't doubt your good intentions.

:57:18.:57:20.

But what you really need to do is be talking to colleagues in government

:57:21.:57:23.

and saying that this year on year on cuts to local government

:57:24.:57:26.

services, it's just proving unsustainable.

:57:27.:57:29.

And I have sympathy for people saying, "We have to close

:57:30.:57:31.

the library because otherwise cuts to old people's services."

:57:32.:57:33.

And it's time to try and turn things round.

:57:34.:57:42.

That is a whole new subject, but thank you.

:57:43.:57:44.

Here is our round-up of the West's political week.

:57:45.:57:52.

A Yeovil man was jailed for two years after harassing

:57:53.:57:55.

24-year-old Joshua Bonehill Payne targeted the Jewish Liberal MP

:57:56.:58:02.

Luciana Berger with a string of anti-Semitic rants.

:58:03.:58:10.

Families who took their children out of school said they couldn't go

:58:11.:58:14.

on holiday win their case against Swindon council.

:58:15.:58:17.

They had all received fines for unauthorised absence.

:58:18.:58:19.

The nine councils that serve Dorset could be merged to form only two.

:58:20.:58:22.

It would save over ?100 million over the next six years.

:58:23.:58:28.

At PMQs, the Gloucester MP urged cross-country trains to provide more

:58:29.:58:31.

Do not allow cross-country to go on treating Gloucester like a leper

:58:32.:58:36.

to be avoided at all costs, and apply to them to deliver

:58:37.:58:39.

In Bristol, the days of free on street parking

:58:40.:58:49.

It's one of a number of controversial measures

:58:50.:58:56.

by the mayor as he tries to balance his books.

:58:57.:58:58.

This dreadful Internet trolling which is going on,

:58:59.:59:02.

Is there much more that the government can

:59:03.:59:05.

Politicians will get criticised, of course.

:59:06.:59:19.

What I've noticed is a lot of my female colleagues have had

:59:20.:59:22.

disproportionately offensive remarks, and threats made to them.

:59:23.:59:24.

Which make them fear for their personal safety.

:59:25.:59:26.

That's not acceptable in a civilised society.

:59:27.:59:28.

We need to police the boundaries of free speech very

:59:29.:59:30.

vigorously when people cross the line into criminality.

:59:31.:59:32.

Anonymity, can I say, is no hiding place,

:59:33.:59:37.

because the police can track people down as we saw in the feature.

:59:38.:59:41.

I've experienced that kind of online abuse.

:59:42.:59:43.

Children are really distressed by it.

:59:44.:59:48.

But I think people need to challenge it.

:59:49.:59:50.

And the social media platforms need to put more resources into making

:59:51.:59:53.

sure there are real people who can see these tweets and can

:59:54.:59:56.

see the blogs and shut them down immediately.

:59:57.:59:58.

And not be confused that that is free speech,

:59:59.:00:00.

because it's not what free speech should be.

:00:01.:00:10.

My thanks to my guests, Robert Buckland and Joanne K.

:00:11.:00:14.

still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.

:00:15.:00:15.

Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked

:00:16.:00:29.

by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian

:00:30.:00:32.

revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged

:00:33.:00:35.

in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking

:00:36.:00:37.

the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally

:00:38.:00:40.

in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned

:00:41.:00:42.

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it

:00:43.:00:49.

And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks

:00:50.:00:57.

were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right

:00:58.:00:59.

of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi

:01:00.:01:03.

terrorists from over the border with Yemen,

:01:04.:01:05.

didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore

:01:06.:01:07.

Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...

:01:08.:01:15.

This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.

:01:16.:01:17.

The way it was interpreted left people with the impression

:01:18.:01:20.

that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.

:01:21.:01:29.

Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital

:01:30.:01:31.

Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?

:01:32.:01:33.

Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring

:01:34.:01:35.

Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.

:01:36.:01:41.

It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest

:01:42.:01:47.

in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are

:01:48.:01:51.

the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be

:01:52.:01:58.

honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall

:01:59.:02:02.

story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that

:02:03.:02:07.

Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a

:02:08.:02:12.

story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there

:02:13.:02:17.

was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between

:02:18.:02:21.

London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring

:02:22.:02:26.

and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are

:02:27.:02:30.

taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris

:02:31.:02:34.

Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I

:02:35.:02:39.

tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting

:02:40.:02:45.

Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis

:02:46.:02:49.

got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the

:02:50.:02:52.

Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just

:02:53.:02:56.

what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they

:02:57.:03:00.

see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this

:03:01.:03:04.

conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two

:03:05.:03:10.

ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing

:03:11.:03:13.

Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region

:03:14.:03:19.

earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine

:03:20.:03:26.

what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three

:03:27.:03:33.

words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick

:03:34.:03:42.

to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,

:03:43.:03:46.

although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech

:03:47.:03:53.

which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night

:03:54.:03:58.

which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in

:03:59.:04:04.

withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3

:04:05.:04:09.

billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases

:04:10.:04:14.

exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the

:04:15.:04:18.

world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen

:04:19.:04:21.

and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't

:04:22.:04:26.

entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we

:04:27.:04:29.

have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in

:04:30.:04:36.

Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes

:04:37.:04:41.

and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both

:04:42.:04:47.

saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is

:04:48.:04:52.

going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't

:04:53.:04:57.

going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners

:04:58.:05:02.

and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of

:05:03.:05:07.

bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals

:05:08.:05:12.

and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases

:05:13.:05:17.

with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.

:05:18.:05:22.

Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street

:05:23.:05:29.

reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important

:05:30.:05:34.

development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They

:05:35.:05:39.

want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should

:05:40.:05:42.

be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another

:05:43.:05:46.

example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that

:05:47.:05:51.

the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed

:05:52.:05:57.

post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I

:05:58.:06:02.

think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I

:06:03.:06:06.

think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel

:06:07.:06:11.

threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and

:06:12.:06:15.

many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival

:06:16.:06:22.

for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May

:06:23.:06:25.

trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain

:06:26.:06:30.

is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,

:06:31.:06:35.

post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are

:06:36.:06:39.

breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,

:06:40.:06:45.

democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying

:06:46.:06:51.

ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should

:06:52.:06:57.

we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,

:06:58.:07:04.

these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.

:07:05.:07:09.

Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply

:07:10.:07:13.

collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession

:07:14.:07:16.

depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think

:07:17.:07:21.

what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,

:07:22.:07:25.

we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the

:07:26.:07:29.

most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep

:07:30.:07:36.

saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.

:07:37.:07:40.

Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.

:07:41.:07:44.

The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is

:07:45.:07:48.

a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,

:07:49.:07:55.

or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.

:07:56.:07:59.

Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for

:08:00.:08:04.

breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you

:08:05.:08:08.

make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It

:08:09.:08:13.

is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take

:08:14.:08:16.

this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost

:08:17.:08:21.

tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a

:08:22.:08:26.

huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft

:08:27.:08:31.

carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep

:08:32.:08:35.

the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just

:08:36.:08:43.

Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is

:08:44.:08:48.

more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no

:08:49.:08:54.

change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now

:08:55.:09:00.

we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.

:09:01.:09:07.

Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be

:09:08.:09:14.

trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be

:09:15.:09:18.

turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I

:09:19.:09:22.

don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC

:09:23.:09:27.

has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the

:09:28.:09:30.

weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us

:09:31.:09:37.

move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was

:09:38.:09:39.

inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.

:09:40.:09:41.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

:09:42.:09:54.

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

:09:55.:09:56.

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

:09:57.:10:10.

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

:10:11.:10:15.

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

:10:16.:10:19.

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

:10:20.:10:25.

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

:10:26.:10:29.

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

:10:30.:10:35.

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

:10:36.:10:41.

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

:10:42.:10:45.

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

:10:46.:10:53.

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

:10:54.:10:58.

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

:10:59.:11:02.

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

:11:03.:11:07.

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

:11:08.:11:11.

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

:11:12.:11:15.

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

:11:16.:11:20.

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

:11:21.:11:24.

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

:11:25.:11:29.

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

:11:30.:11:37.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

:11:38.:11:41.

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

:11:42.:11:47.

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

:11:48.:11:52.

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

:11:53.:11:56.

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

:11:57.:12:01.

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

:12:02.:12:05.

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

:12:06.:12:08.

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

:12:09.:12:12.

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

:12:13.:12:16.

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

:12:17.:12:22.

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

:12:23.:12:26.

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

:12:27.:12:31.

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

:12:32.:12:35.

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

:12:36.:12:39.

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

:12:40.:12:43.

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

:12:44.:12:49.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

:12:50.:12:54.

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

:12:55.:12:58.

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

:12:59.:13:03.

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

:13:04.:13:08.

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

:13:09.:13:15.

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

:13:16.:13:20.

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

:13:21.:13:24.

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

:13:25.:13:27.

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

:13:28.:13:31.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

:13:32.:13:38.

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

:13:39.:13:41.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

:13:42.:13:44.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:45.:14:20.

# We're going to have a party tonight

:14:21.:14:46.

# I'm going to find that boy underneath the mistletoe

:14:47.:14:51.

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