28/05/2017 Sunday Politics West


Jo Coburn and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. John Curtice, Ben Wallace, Richard Burgon, Douglas Murray and Sara Khan are among the guests.

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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.


New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,


on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.


Are the politicians and the security services doing


Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"


in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans


for a new Commission to counter extremism.


We'll be talking to the Security Minister.


Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000


more staff at security and intelligence agencies.


In the West: Getting the message across The independents


bringing a bit of colour to the general election campaign.


supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering


the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this


morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia


Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts


on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,


the election campaign And some recent polls


suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look


at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over


the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third


of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's


Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be


enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break


in campaigning for And in the evening it will be


the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP


publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do


so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's


Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main


parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim


Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time


special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,


but will take questions consecutively from members


of the audience. The final week of campaigning


is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days


of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once


voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early


in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always


means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,


if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion


polls today, which have the Conservative lead


over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.


So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice


is the expert we always turn to at times like this,


and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They


seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very


consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare


them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto


launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two


points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear


consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this


matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads


are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the


landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in


trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is


further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that


young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote


for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out


to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls


that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the


Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the


Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,


they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The


Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you


look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has


been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now


average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of


the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is


I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour


manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,


we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the


fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,


together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never


voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.


What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather


has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?


This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces


the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at


which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to


correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support


a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't


assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were


wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls


have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they


are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so


far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And


subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low


initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of


movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more


in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to


the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be


at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by


Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might


not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a


good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was


a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the


Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby


was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the


candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the


moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been


a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,


she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone


up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do


something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy


like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the


reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some


momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the


focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were


stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically


cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All


of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is


a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.


That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour


Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the


other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the


trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this


narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning


resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,


Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in


Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them


safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon


for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the


very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of


Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.


You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid


for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It


is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in


them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.


The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about


like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite


while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about


public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I


don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We


had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was


already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.


The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually


care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank


you very much. The election campaign was,


of course, put on hold following the terrorist


attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has


resumed, it's hardly surprising that security


is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it


would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at


short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.


It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very


dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community


response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police


he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I


would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources


to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds


is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a


thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is


in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow


Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any


more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of


the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also


10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by


20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police


officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison


officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not


helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra


firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border


guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not


as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.


If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy


Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.


If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why


aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more


police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing


anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We


will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very


clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop


at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be


giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you


will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need


to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are


saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger


caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,


not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from


anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of


powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to


listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the


intelligence community and the security service, to the army and


the police, about what they think and how they think our communities


could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police


by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said


you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured


and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services


and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?


Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against


measures designed to tackle home-grown and international


terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week


made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant


those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into


thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and


investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?


Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and


many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it


would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a


very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce


hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which


can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said


earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that


he has been listening to the security services, what he said


about the international situation has also been said by the former


head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as


president of back -- President Barack Obama.


You say he will give the police and security services the resources and


powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy


Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State


the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad


idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and


others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm


interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to


be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in


favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on


suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex


situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it


was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation


through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly


there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,


Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other


Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this


week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We


have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,


but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is


there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been


solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but


your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they


need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will


want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in


2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At


the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the


one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What


he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism


and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed


me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy


Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with


him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but


what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat


down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he


didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think


that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These


issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together


on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have


promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify


extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,


and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,


the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants


for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them


of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.


Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in


their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do


to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans


have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but


there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.


Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did


say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do


internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and


international response. I think there are a range of issues. We


could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words


are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made


these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do


the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to


social media companies take down this material? We have an act that


was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one


of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We


have right now officials from my department over in the United States


with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that


they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have


the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that


maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies


devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see


them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a


few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted


a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve


it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime


Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but


to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People


will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is


unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,


which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote


you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the


picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was


killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be


demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the


context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces


we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been


extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way


these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were


watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to


look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto


YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I


understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting


media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...


You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young


people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I


invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on


Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos


or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as


long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to


be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying


for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance


that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people


don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians


and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be


done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It


is more about examining how much progress you can make. The


Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers


in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being


monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.


Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it


is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is


important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size


of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms


not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we


have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our


manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government


spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7


billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them


on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,


and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have


quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are


using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,


but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.


Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.


Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they


are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive


issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and


at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't


come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5


and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor


them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.


You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if


they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with


the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance


between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there


is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all


sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from


where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The


control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because


one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to


satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is


right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we


won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no


point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't


give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James


Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.


The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old


Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns


about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.


In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers


investigating radicalisation in the UK.


Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,


and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO


of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.


We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem


of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.


Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,


We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -


Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify


the sources of the problem, and polite society


This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.


Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,


one for each year of life this country had given him.


We need to think far more deeply about all this.


Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem


France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.


Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?


For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.


The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.


Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,


and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,


even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.


It is high time we became serious too.


Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.


We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?


Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations


who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even


violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out


of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself


experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.


These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,


hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers


Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic


anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition


I've seen politicians and charities partner


with and support some of these voices and groups.


Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far


right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do


But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies


Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.


We must counter those who seek to divide us.


Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,


strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,


let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The


young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at


Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its


leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of


the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they


are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was


against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just


one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?


Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in


the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting


Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide


bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to


that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been


politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,


Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and


countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist


-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If


Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look


forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join


Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist


offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got


worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your


argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of


Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?


The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to


absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me


finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It


has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth


continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically


correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to


deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in


Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a


crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are


competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are


seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians


are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims


should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.


There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to


take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many


reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on


the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in


this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A


poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would


not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to


the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they


could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.


What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current


understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university


campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material


that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of


thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is


freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is


through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights


to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a


gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many


people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That


is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights


point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not


suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people


don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be


opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human


rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution


like Salford University you should be held responsible for not


cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge


extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually


counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not


about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most


effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it


doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking


place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims


in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are


homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend


among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea


that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is


also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are


defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a


better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to


get real about that. Thank you very much.


It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.


Welcome to Sunday Politics in the west.


The independents trying to get their message


across in the general election campaign.


I'm joined again by four election hopefuls.


They are the Conservative Simon Hoare, Labour's Thangam Debbonaire,


Gideon Amos for the Lib Dems and UKIP's Ernie Warrender.


We meet with our hearts broken for those victims


Of course, in our horror and disgust - we're turning to the politicians


to see how they plan to keep us safe in a dangerous world.


The answer for Labour's Diane Abbott is a big


The reason that we had to, we had to promised 10,000 extra police


officers is that an Theresa May 's watch they are 20,000 police


officers down so the cost of the entire package which is 10,000 extra


police officers, 3000 firefighters, 1000 security people, it would be


470 million. Diane Abbott on the 470 million. Diane Abbott on the


Andrew Marr show. Simon, all have the Conservatives cut 20,000 police


officers? We haven't. You have. We set the budget at the Home Office


and commissioners Aji Constable decide whether resources are


deployed. You know that if you don't give them the money then they can


stop Mac what we have done because stop Mac what we have done because


of the nature of policing, we know it is changing, the nature of


terrorism is changing as we saw at the tragic event in Manchester. . We


have to change the way that we deliver our security and policing


services so that is why the government, since 2010, has been


putting more money into organisations like MI5 and GCHQ as a


remind ourselves, as I think this is remind ourselves, as I think this is


the important thing, the issue is fundamentally about trust. We have a


Shadow Chancellor who said he would disband MI5 and disarm the police.


That is Labour's vision. You cannot trust the Labour Party... Hang on.


Lots of words and this is actions. You have cut budgets would have


forced police authorities to reduce the number of full-time officers,


and even in Somerset there are 602 down since 2010. Crime has been


following if you look at statistics across the country. What we have to


ensure and I think people really nor in the heart of hearts, when you


look at the Conservative Party we are the only party who can be really


trusted on delivering a secure country. Ex-mac Gideon Amos, do you


agree? The Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Patrick, for us,


he has made very clear we need to put an extra 300 million into


policing. We need to release the 1% cap on police pay, which of course


is damaging to morale. Conservatives are also cutting the armed services.


200 Royal Marines poster going, Royal Marines can in Taunton Deane


is closing. You would reverse that? We would. Your policy is to roll


back surveillance and scrap the present programme. Is that wise? The


present programme has been showing to be not working, what we need is a


programme that is successful. What Brian Patrick has pointed out is


targeting people get her to make sure we are achieving... You are


against, you're fighting against encryption on what SAP and whatnot.


What we say is that having lighted surveillance on everything and


everyone is not the most successful week to identify terrorism. Only six


Lib Dem MPs bothered to vote on the investigatory Powers act which


brought together all the powers under one act. Six Lib Dem... To


answer your question, the reason is as I was saying, that blanket


surveillance when you invest huge resources... We would go down that


line. Thangam Debbonaire, R Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott the


accommodation to keep us safe? You decide Diane Abbott is it we would


reverse cuts to police funding and we would have 10,000 extra police


officers at a cost of 0.3 million that makes you buy 3 billion. We


know how much it will cost unlike the Tory manifesto and we have


worked out what our commitments will worked out what our commitments will


cost them where we will get the money from. We will invest in border


forces, which the Tory government has cut. Theresa May who has been


Home Secretary before she was Prime Minister, she is trying to act as


though nothing has gone wrong on her watch. Ex-mac do you agree with


Jeremy Corbyn that part of the terror problem is our own fault? The


fault of foreign policy? That is not what he said, he said


down terrorism, causes of terrorism down terrorism, causes of terrorism


are not foreign policy alone, he said that context is important. Do


you agree? As Boris John has also said context is incredibly


important. I used to work with violent men before I was a


politician and although the responsibility is always an then,


context did play a part. We got part of this on ourselves? That is not


I'm seeing, it is important to I'm seeing, it is important to


consider context. A Labour government would not be selling arms


to despotic regimes regimes where there are concerns about


international human rights. The Tory government is saying yes to arms


exports to 20 countries that their own foreign and Commonwealth of this


the context. If you help our people the context. If you help our people


who are going to cause human rights violations are helping to Stuttgart


fuel and hatred. It is part of the context. You are part of the


Parliamentary group on refugees, can you understand why some voters may


not think that having more refugees coming into the country may not be


wise? I know that every time I talk to people about refugees, I say to


someone in this country was at war and we were in conflict with you


expect our neighbours and neighbours and friends and allies to help as


they say yes. And when I say someone they say yes. And when I say someone


is fleeing persecution and torture and terror, do you think we should


welcome them and they say yes, but they also say that he will come must


be properly be sourced and worked out and is ten of the parliamentary


group I initiated an enquiry that did exactly that, we worked out how


to improve the welcome that we give. The security checks? Security checks


are important and that is why under a Labour government we would


increase border patrols. And anyone from Ukip, you promise more police


and prison officers. How would you pay? Typify this we have HS2, the


Victorian railway which the Tories are intent on providing when I can


get a phone signal let alone transfer data, there is a huge chunk


of money that we don't have but they will find it from somewhere, and we


want to put the foreign aid budget in line with Obama 's America and


Japan. With Jamaica for not so we Japan. With Jamaica for not so we


can hear you. Basically we have touched on security here. We don't


have much on security, freedom of movement, people can, Glasgow


please. That is just not true. -- people can come and go as they


finally. You say it is not true but finally. You say it is not true but


everyone is satisfied sky to freedom of movement. Theresa May has Home


Secretary was booed offstage at the Police Federation conference in


2012. We need more police and a more visible presence but we also need,


we did a wonderful thing in the fifties... Theresa May was booed by


the Police Federation. To take Thangam's point, let's put that into


context, it was a tough speech that the Prime Minister gave us Home


Secretary access to the Police Federation, which the readership


then accepted, that they needed to modernise and change the ways that


the operated as an organisation. That is where some of the building


came from. I don't think the key message from Theresa May has Home


Secretary and Prime Minister would be booed by the police because I


think they know quite rightly that has Home Secretary she made sure


whether it was sorting out stop and search are putting in place the


investigatory Powers act, making sure that our security and police


services and increasingly as we talk about integration... Very sorry, no


speeches. Thangam what would you say to that? I would challenge what


you're saying, I think it is that we are clear, there is a context we


response ability for terrorism has response ability for terrorism has


to be on the terrorist, however not having enough police makes people


feel fearful, people in Bristol and beyond have told me about their


anxieties about police cuts and they want them reversed. Treat people as


you would be treated as saying that would apply to Theresa May at the


least Federation, as public servants feel they're being treated badly by


Conservative ministers not only on paper than the way talked about and


that is the reaction they will get. Thank you.


Increased security measures have been in place at the Tall Ships


But that hasn't stopped thousands of people enjoying


But what are their thoughts on who should captain the country


Hello, welcome aboard. It is a glorious day for it. 50,000 people


expected through the doors today and we are on board the topsail schooner


I am told, one of seven tall ships in the stocks. It is sealed up from


Bristol for the bank holiday weekend. And Jack Sparrow from


Pirates of the Caribbean is currently engaged in a sword fight.


This area has always been a duel between the Conservatives and Labour


in with the polls narrowing the undecideds could be crucial so where


better than the tall ships Festival to look for the 14 border?


And he worked out who your going to vote for? I was conservative but now


I am not sure, she is scrapping the I am not sure, she is scrapping the


free meals. My son gets a free meals while not sure now. I am a


Conservative voter and I will be again. I'm a teacher so I have


experienced how bad it has been for local schools to have the budget cut


and they will cut them again. I have lived been not pro-Tory. Not


pro-Tory at all but Weaver makes more sense to me. Getting a third of


the US move them quickly as possible. I am astonished


Conservative. James is staunch Labour. Do you get along? We do. We


are the best of friends. I think the weights have got some very good


points extract we are supporters of good King George III, long may he


reign! He is a bit mad but aren't we all nowadays? They will see us


through. Only in the West of England. Our thanks to Robin


Markwell for bringing us that bit of light relief. Let's talk politics


again. Thangam, the polls are narrowing, aren't they? Do you think


Mr Corrigan can make it and be in ten Downing St? I don't want to call


to go, a week in four days, the to go, a week in four days, the


result of play for. What I am finding and what my colleagues are


telling me is there is a mixture of things people are concerned about,


school cuts, concerned about cuts to the police, the worried about the


National Health Service. All of those things have an answer in the


Labour manifesto and I'm guessing that is why people are warming to


us. They are warming to Mr Corbyn as well but you resigned and would not


work with them on the front bench because you thought he was


incompetent. Yes and here we are with the great manifesto which I'm


fully behind, I'm delighted about it. I did press Karen Smith your


colleague on this last week. And you look at me and say aye think Jeremy


Corbyn would make a good Prime Minister. I think a Labour Prime


Minister will be so much better than a Tory Prime Minister. You can't get


the words out. Now you, Simon, this idea of putting up Theresa May and


ignoring the conservative brand almost if you like, that seems ill


backfired. I have seen no evidence of that. She is the leader of the


Conservative Party and Prime Minister of the Conservative


government. This is one of the leaflets going through the doors.


The word conservative is down there. The word conservative is down there.


What I pointed out was when you opened it down there is Theresa May


and there were Conservatives with our logo also I think it is very


hard to suggest that people in this country would not know the Theresa


Conservative Prime Minister. Let me Conservative Prime Minister. Let me


now very serious times. We have the now very serious times. We have the


difficult job of delivering Brexit. I think the country knows that you


want a steadfast reliable tried and tested leader of the country. And


not... It is certainly not Mr Farren not... It is certainly not Mr Farren


and it is certainly not Mr Corbyn who we know cannot be trusted and


security. You cannot be trusted on defence or the economy. Do you


accept that the manifesto that Mrs Mary put out in her name, she said


it is my manifesto, it is dour, it offers nothing for you to sell on


the doorstep. Austerity cuts. I am a parent of three children and when I


talked other parents about additional money for education,


about making sure that children also about making sure that children also


have a free breakfast when they need, that is going down very well.


What we have is a sensible deliverable programme of government,


delivering on the referendum but proving that we can both Rob our


heads and patter tummies at the same time. We have a wider domestic


agenda of reform and diving... Let's bring in the Lib Dems. We need


strong people in politics but strong people who will stand up to school


cuts, stand up to the watering down cuts, stand up to the watering down


of funding for National Health Service. If we are having Brexit


then what we need is members of Parliament who will stand up to keep


the free trade we have had for the free trade we have had for


decades rather than risking us crashing out of Europe was no deal


and that is really worrying employers in the constituency in


Taunton Deane, it is worrying anybody who has a job that is only


affected by European trade and those of a kind of strong issues we need


to think about. The except Brexit is going to happen? If the majority


continues to be in favour of Brexit. We have never seen the deal that was


top of it, no one has had a chance to see it let alone vote on it. But


what importantly if we are going out of Europe then we have to protect


the best that we have with Europe. You keep seeing F, you have not


accepted it. You have not accepted the will of the people? We believe


that when the deal comes back a first referendum on the deal with


the option to remain should be there. Let's bring in any from Ukip.


Brexit will happen, so it is job done, you can stand down can't you?


Mrs May is a remainder, the Chancellor is a remainder, most of


our front bench is a remainder, the chap who wrote the manifesto, now it


is not done. I actually agree with Gideon, you need strong members of


Parliament up there because I don't believe we are going to get the


Brexit the people thought it would get. We have seen back sliding


already, the European Court of Human Rights will remain in force until


2022. I'm sorry was I talking when you're interrupting? There was only


knew what they were voting for, the knew what they were voting for, the


wound. There was one question. You want to be in the European Union,


yes or no? So when you see you now that people wanted to leave then you


don't know. You will see David Cameron and George Osborne crystal


clear seniors wanting to leave the single market, or neutered. I wanted


about Pope -- public spending. Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party


offer for extra bank holidays, what police, feature is in and the rest


of it. We are confident that the of it. We are confident that the


sums add up and the country we afford it? I have been through the


costing stop -- costings document prepared by the Labour Party and


we'll how much it'll cost to have the extra police officers and where


we will get money from. The costings document is a good document, EIF S


have made a few criticisms that we are well of Abbey well I just four,


but what they also did they said the Conservative manifesto was barely


costed at all and that is the real question here. We don't go as far as


the public spending, and as the Institute for Fiscal Studies have


said they do not believe the sums add up for Labour conservatives. Our


only change in income taxes 1p on the rate of income tax for the


health service which people understand, they can see that ring


fenced money going to the health service. We must have manifesto that


Does your manifesto add up? Of Does your manifesto add up? Of


course it does. What EIF S has said is that if you look at the Labour


Party manifesto, and what we're trying to do now was encourage


business to grow and encourage people to pay and invest. If you are


to deliver policies were real mass lies Asian was not costed,... We are


just taking franchises back. You would have the highest tax burden


for 70 years. The Ukip manifesto is 90% the same in 2015, although have


changed. They want politicians with foresight hindsight?


We've spoken to all the main parties on Sunday Politics over


But there are independent and minor party candidates standing in just


Martin Jones has been to meet some of them.


A warning - his report does contain a man in a pink leotard.


Vote for the monster raving loony party. Driving the message home,


comedy candidate making a serious point. Disabled firefighter George


standing for the monster raving loony party. And raising money for


behind him it is all coming from his behind him it is all coming from his


own pocket. Will cost me eight or ?900 but do you spend it in ?100 on


a weeks holiday something? I don't know. I'm having three weeks fun. It


Nonvoters vote for the monster Nonvoters vote for the monster


raving with a party. Your vote counts. With no team to help


canvassing is a slow and lonely job. In Bristol and other one-man


campaign but with naked ambition. campaign but with naked ambition.


Former adult film producer John Langley protesting after being


barred from a women's hustings. It is quite fun to be an independent


candidate, I am now dressed like this. The only thing I am short of


its high heels but I did not want to make myself look stupid. It is tough


being an independent when you're not being invited to speak at some of


the hustings. After all there is no such thing as bad publicity. It is


also vital for independents to explain the ideas. Especially


radical ones. And he ever heard of a research-based economy? He money


free party believes in a research-based economy, world


without money or work. But it is a real job getting the message across.


You at the man who is claiming that you're going to get rid of all money


and have an offer everyone. You're telling me... In a monopoly -based


system you cannot allow what he wants to get through. Even if you


don't believe in money you still need ?500 for the deposit. I


borrowed that from my parents, that money there. I haven't got spare


cash lying about for such a investment as that so I said to him


if I can borrowed of you I will pay it back in instalments and I want


deposit. So you got some free money? deposit. So you got some free money?


It is debt -based. While independents may face an uphill


struggle, no one can see all struggle, no one can see all


candidates are the same. Makes you proud to be British.


My thanks to my guests Simon Hoare, Thangam Debbonaire, Gideon Amos


re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.


Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election


campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.


Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is


that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who


do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only


be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters


this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about


Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,


is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the


tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech


last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin


analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I


think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack


just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister


has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,


it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic


attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You


raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader


argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two


courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation


about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.


You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign


by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by


politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a


divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue


that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply


unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me


does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic


event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue


that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political


battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a


tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree


or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a


time to review the level of argument? This is a political


debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and


about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We


mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when


we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a


lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do


you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that


suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,


which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.


Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to


grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power


Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And


not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another


example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David


Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now


heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I


personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the


major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of


terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate


terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be


supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an


election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the


Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a


great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that


will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole


point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not


quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less


impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just


repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They


like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we


see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting


to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are


asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will


that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in


terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why


she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will


absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is


a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65


million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.


It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you


think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they


will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls


and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to


get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on


one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume


that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable


campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.


On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.


Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the


Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have


had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.


Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home


Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home


office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government


has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in


additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in


the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You


voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on


that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.


We are making good progress with the companies who put in place


encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.


I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same


hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The


hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,


you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the


views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my


hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of


how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides


talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election


debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it


and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm


glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane


Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage


votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that


legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they


are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I


did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.


That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it


seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault


of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which


the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would


imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my


judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would


be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and


performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the


economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I


don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd


is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be


debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the


electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like


to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking


forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the


week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our


guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil


will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.


That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a


very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.


As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them


the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.


One minute to get the food on the plate.


..team them up with a Michelin starred chef,


putting their reputation on the line.


..which team will have the recipe for success?


One minute to get the food on the plate.


Jo Coburn and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

Professor of politics John Curtice, minister for security Ben Wallace, shadow justice minister Richard Burgon, author and commentator Douglas Murray, and director of Inspire (counter-extremism and women's rights organization) Sara Khan are among the guests.

Journalists Steve Richards, Tim Marshall and Julia Hartley-Brewer make up the political panel.

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