28/05/2017 Sunday Politics West


28/05/2017

Jo Coburn and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. John Curtice, Ben Wallace, Richard Burgon, Douglas Murray and Sara Khan are among the guests.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 28/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,

:00:41.:00:43.

on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.

:00:44.:00:47.

Are the politicians and the security services doing

:00:48.:00:49.

Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"

:00:50.:00:55.

in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans

:00:56.:00:58.

for a new Commission to counter extremism.

:00:59.:01:02.

We'll be talking to the Security Minister.

:01:03.:01:06.

Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000

:01:07.:01:08.

more staff at security and intelligence agencies.

:01:09.:01:14.

In the West: Getting the message across The independents

:01:15.:01:16.

bringing a bit of colour to the general election campaign.

:01:17.:01:22.

supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering

:01:23.:01:25.

the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this

:01:26.:01:32.

morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia

:01:33.:01:35.

Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts

:01:36.:01:36.

on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,

:01:37.:01:41.

the election campaign And some recent polls

:01:42.:01:49.

suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look

:01:50.:01:52.

at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over

:01:53.:01:58.

the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third

:01:59.:02:02.

of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's

:02:03.:02:07.

Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be

:02:08.:02:09.

enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break

:02:10.:02:15.

in campaigning for And in the evening it will be

:02:16.:02:17.

the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP

:02:18.:02:23.

publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do

:02:24.:02:27.

so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's

:02:28.:02:30.

Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main

:02:31.:02:33.

parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim

:02:34.:02:37.

Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time

:02:38.:02:46.

special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,

:02:47.:02:48.

but will take questions consecutively from members

:02:49.:02:51.

of the audience. The final week of campaigning

:02:52.:02:53.

is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days

:02:54.:02:56.

of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once

:02:57.:03:04.

voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early

:03:05.:03:10.

in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always

:03:11.:03:13.

means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,

:03:14.:03:16.

if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion

:03:17.:03:19.

polls today, which have the Conservative lead

:03:20.:03:21.

over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.

:03:22.:03:23.

So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice

:03:24.:03:26.

is the expert we always turn to at times like this,

:03:27.:03:29.

and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They

:03:30.:03:42.

seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very

:03:43.:03:47.

consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare

:03:48.:03:51.

them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto

:03:52.:03:57.

launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two

:03:58.:04:02.

points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear

:04:03.:04:08.

consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this

:04:09.:04:13.

matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads

:04:14.:04:16.

are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the

:04:17.:04:22.

landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in

:04:23.:04:25.

trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is

:04:26.:04:36.

further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that

:04:37.:04:40.

young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote

:04:41.:04:46.

for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out

:04:47.:04:49.

to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls

:04:50.:04:53.

that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the

:04:54.:04:57.

Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the

:04:58.:05:02.

Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,

:05:03.:05:05.

they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The

:05:06.:05:12.

Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you

:05:13.:05:17.

look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has

:05:18.:05:23.

been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now

:05:24.:05:29.

average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of

:05:30.:05:32.

the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is

:05:33.:05:36.

I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour

:05:37.:05:40.

manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,

:05:41.:05:47.

we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the

:05:48.:05:51.

fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,

:05:52.:05:55.

together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never

:05:56.:05:59.

voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.

:06:00.:06:04.

What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather

:06:05.:06:07.

has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?

:06:08.:06:13.

This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces

:06:14.:06:16.

the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at

:06:17.:06:21.

which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to

:06:22.:06:27.

correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support

:06:28.:06:31.

a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't

:06:32.:06:34.

assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were

:06:35.:06:38.

wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls

:06:39.:06:47.

have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they

:06:48.:06:51.

are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so

:06:52.:06:55.

far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And

:06:56.:07:02.

subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low

:07:03.:07:05.

initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of

:07:06.:07:09.

movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more

:07:10.:07:13.

in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to

:07:14.:07:23.

the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be

:07:24.:07:28.

at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by

:07:29.:07:32.

Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might

:07:33.:07:37.

not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a

:07:38.:07:41.

good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was

:07:42.:07:46.

a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the

:07:47.:07:53.

Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby

:07:54.:07:57.

was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the

:07:58.:08:02.

candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the

:08:03.:08:06.

moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been

:08:07.:08:11.

a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,

:08:12.:08:16.

she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone

:08:17.:08:20.

up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do

:08:21.:08:24.

something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy

:08:25.:08:28.

like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the

:08:29.:08:32.

reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some

:08:33.:08:36.

momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the

:08:37.:08:39.

focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were

:08:40.:08:43.

stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically

:08:44.:08:47.

cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All

:08:48.:08:53.

of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is

:08:54.:08:58.

a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.

:08:59.:09:02.

That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour

:09:03.:09:05.

Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the

:09:06.:09:10.

other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the

:09:11.:09:14.

trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this

:09:15.:09:20.

narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning

:09:21.:09:24.

resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,

:09:25.:09:28.

Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in

:09:29.:09:31.

Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them

:09:32.:09:36.

safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon

:09:37.:09:40.

for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the

:09:41.:09:47.

very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of

:09:48.:09:52.

Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.

:09:53.:09:59.

You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid

:10:00.:10:05.

for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It

:10:06.:10:09.

is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in

:10:10.:10:14.

them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.

:10:15.:10:18.

The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about

:10:19.:10:22.

like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite

:10:23.:10:28.

while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about

:10:29.:10:32.

public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I

:10:33.:10:35.

don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We

:10:36.:10:40.

had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was

:10:41.:10:44.

already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.

:10:45.:10:48.

The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually

:10:49.:10:53.

care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank

:10:54.:10:55.

you very much. The election campaign was,

:10:56.:10:57.

of course, put on hold following the terrorist

:10:58.:10:59.

attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has

:11:00.:11:01.

resumed, it's hardly surprising that security

:11:02.:11:04.

is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it

:11:05.:11:06.

would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at

:11:07.:11:20.

short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.

:11:21.:11:25.

It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very

:11:26.:11:29.

dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community

:11:30.:11:36.

response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police

:11:37.:11:39.

he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I

:11:40.:11:43.

would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources

:11:44.:11:44.

to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds

:11:45.:11:46.

is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a

:11:47.:11:56.

thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is

:11:57.:11:59.

in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow

:12:00.:12:03.

Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any

:12:04.:12:06.

more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of

:12:07.:12:11.

the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also

:12:12.:12:18.

10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by

:12:19.:12:22.

20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police

:12:23.:12:26.

officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison

:12:27.:12:32.

officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not

:12:33.:12:39.

helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra

:12:40.:12:44.

firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border

:12:45.:12:53.

guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not

:12:54.:12:57.

as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.

:12:58.:13:02.

If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy

:13:03.:13:05.

Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.

:13:06.:13:10.

If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why

:13:11.:13:16.

aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more

:13:17.:13:20.

police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing

:13:21.:13:27.

anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We

:13:28.:13:31.

will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very

:13:32.:13:35.

clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop

:13:36.:13:40.

at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be

:13:41.:13:46.

giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you

:13:47.:13:49.

will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need

:13:50.:13:56.

to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are

:13:57.:13:59.

saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger

:14:00.:14:07.

caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,

:14:08.:14:12.

not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from

:14:13.:14:16.

anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of

:14:17.:14:22.

powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to

:14:23.:14:27.

listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the

:14:28.:14:29.

intelligence community and the security service, to the army and

:14:30.:14:36.

the police, about what they think and how they think our communities

:14:37.:14:39.

could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police

:14:40.:14:44.

by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said

:14:45.:14:50.

you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured

:14:51.:14:54.

and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services

:14:55.:14:59.

and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?

:15:00.:15:04.

Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against

:15:05.:15:08.

measures designed to tackle home-grown and international

:15:09.:15:13.

terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week

:15:14.:15:17.

made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant

:15:18.:15:22.

those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into

:15:23.:15:30.

thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and

:15:31.:15:34.

investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?

:15:35.:15:39.

Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

:15:40.:15:44.

many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it

:15:45.:15:48.

would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a

:15:49.:15:51.

very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce

:15:52.:15:58.

hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which

:15:59.:16:01.

can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said

:16:02.:16:05.

earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that

:16:06.:16:08.

he has been listening to the security services, what he said

:16:09.:16:12.

about the international situation has also been said by the former

:16:13.:16:17.

head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as

:16:18.:16:20.

president of back -- President Barack Obama.

:16:21.:16:26.

You say he will give the police and security services the resources and

:16:27.:16:32.

powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy

:16:33.:16:36.

Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State

:16:37.:16:46.

the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad

:16:47.:16:52.

idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

:16:53.:16:57.

others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm

:16:58.:17:00.

interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to

:17:01.:17:04.

be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in

:17:05.:17:08.

favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on

:17:09.:17:13.

suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex

:17:14.:17:20.

situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it

:17:21.:17:24.

was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation

:17:25.:17:27.

through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly

:17:28.:17:35.

there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,

:17:36.:17:38.

Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other

:17:39.:17:43.

Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this

:17:44.:17:47.

week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We

:17:48.:17:52.

have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,

:17:53.:17:56.

but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is

:17:57.:18:02.

there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been

:18:03.:18:14.

solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but

:18:15.:18:16.

your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they

:18:17.:18:19.

need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will

:18:20.:18:22.

want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in

:18:23.:18:30.

2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At

:18:31.:18:40.

the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the

:18:41.:18:45.

one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What

:18:46.:18:49.

he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism

:18:50.:18:53.

and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed

:18:54.:19:01.

me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy

:19:02.:19:05.

Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with

:19:06.:19:19.

him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but

:19:20.:19:23.

what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat

:19:24.:19:26.

down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he

:19:27.:19:30.

didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think

:19:31.:19:34.

that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These

:19:35.:19:38.

issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together

:19:39.:19:40.

on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have

:19:41.:19:44.

promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify

:19:45.:19:47.

extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,

:19:48.:19:49.

and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,

:19:50.:19:52.

the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants

:19:53.:19:54.

for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them

:19:55.:19:56.

of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:19:57.:20:09.

Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in

:20:10.:20:13.

their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do

:20:14.:20:18.

to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans

:20:19.:20:22.

have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but

:20:23.:20:27.

there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.

:20:28.:20:33.

Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did

:20:34.:20:37.

say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do

:20:38.:20:42.

internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and

:20:43.:20:45.

international response. I think there are a range of issues. We

:20:46.:20:52.

could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words

:20:53.:20:56.

are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made

:20:57.:21:00.

these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do

:21:01.:21:07.

the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to

:21:08.:21:10.

social media companies take down this material? We have an act that

:21:11.:21:15.

was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one

:21:16.:21:21.

of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We

:21:22.:21:27.

have right now officials from my department over in the United States

:21:28.:21:30.

with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that

:21:31.:21:35.

they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have

:21:36.:21:42.

the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that

:21:43.:21:48.

maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies

:21:49.:21:52.

devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see

:21:53.:21:55.

them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a

:21:56.:22:01.

few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted

:22:02.:22:05.

a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve

:22:06.:22:11.

it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime

:22:12.:22:15.

Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but

:22:16.:22:18.

to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People

:22:19.:22:23.

will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is

:22:24.:22:25.

unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,

:22:26.:22:32.

which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote

:22:33.:22:37.

you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the

:22:38.:22:41.

picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was

:22:42.:22:46.

killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be

:22:47.:22:51.

demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the

:22:52.:22:56.

context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces

:22:57.:23:02.

we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been

:23:03.:23:06.

extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way

:23:07.:23:10.

these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were

:23:11.:23:16.

watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to

:23:17.:23:20.

look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto

:23:21.:23:27.

YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I

:23:28.:23:36.

understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting

:23:37.:23:39.

media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...

:23:40.:23:47.

You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young

:23:48.:23:51.

people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I

:23:52.:23:57.

invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on

:23:58.:24:01.

Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos

:24:02.:24:07.

or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as

:24:08.:24:11.

long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to

:24:12.:24:15.

be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying

:24:16.:24:19.

for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance

:24:20.:24:25.

that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people

:24:26.:24:30.

don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians

:24:31.:24:34.

and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be

:24:35.:24:39.

done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It

:24:40.:24:43.

is more about examining how much progress you can make. The

:24:44.:24:48.

Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers

:24:49.:24:53.

in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being

:24:54.:25:04.

monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.

:25:05.:25:09.

Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it

:25:10.:25:12.

is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is

:25:13.:25:16.

important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size

:25:17.:25:24.

of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms

:25:25.:25:27.

not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we

:25:28.:25:33.

have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our

:25:34.:25:39.

manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government

:25:40.:25:42.

spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7

:25:43.:25:52.

billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them

:25:53.:26:00.

on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,

:26:01.:26:05.

and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have

:26:06.:26:09.

quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are

:26:10.:26:15.

using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,

:26:16.:26:22.

but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.

:26:23.:26:30.

Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.

:26:31.:26:35.

Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they

:26:36.:26:43.

are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive

:26:44.:26:47.

issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and

:26:48.:26:51.

at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't

:26:52.:26:57.

come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5

:26:58.:27:02.

and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor

:27:03.:27:08.

them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.

:27:09.:27:16.

You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if

:27:17.:27:19.

they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with

:27:20.:27:26.

the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance

:27:27.:27:31.

between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there

:27:32.:27:34.

is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all

:27:35.:27:42.

sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from

:27:43.:27:48.

where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The

:27:49.:27:53.

control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because

:27:54.:27:57.

one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to

:27:58.:28:02.

satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is

:28:03.:28:06.

right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we

:28:07.:28:10.

won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no

:28:11.:28:15.

point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't

:28:16.:28:21.

give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James

:28:22.:28:33.

Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.

:28:34.:28:35.

The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old

:28:36.:28:43.

Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns

:28:44.:28:46.

about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.

:28:47.:28:48.

In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers

:28:49.:28:51.

investigating radicalisation in the UK.

:28:52.:28:52.

Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,

:28:53.:28:54.

and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO

:28:55.:28:56.

of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.

:28:57.:28:58.

We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem

:28:59.:29:01.

of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.

:29:02.:29:04.

Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,

:29:05.:29:09.

We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -

:29:10.:29:27.

Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify

:29:28.:29:31.

the sources of the problem, and polite society

:29:32.:29:32.

This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.

:29:33.:29:39.

Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,

:29:40.:29:43.

one for each year of life this country had given him.

:29:44.:29:50.

We need to think far more deeply about all this.

:29:51.:29:54.

Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem

:29:55.:29:57.

France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.

:29:58.:30:05.

Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?

:30:06.:30:09.

For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.

:30:10.:30:17.

The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.

:30:18.:30:20.

Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,

:30:21.:30:24.

and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,

:30:25.:30:28.

even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.

:30:29.:30:34.

It is high time we became serious too.

:30:35.:30:44.

Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.

:30:45.:30:52.

We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?

:30:53.:30:59.

Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations

:31:00.:31:02.

who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even

:31:03.:31:07.

violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out

:31:08.:31:11.

of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself

:31:12.:31:14.

experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.

:31:15.:31:17.

These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,

:31:18.:31:26.

hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers

:31:27.:31:29.

Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic

:31:30.:31:33.

anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition

:31:34.:31:39.

I've seen politicians and charities partner

:31:40.:31:44.

with and support some of these voices and groups.

:31:45.:31:49.

Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far

:31:50.:31:55.

right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do

:31:56.:31:58.

But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies

:31:59.:32:05.

Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.

:32:06.:32:15.

We must counter those who seek to divide us.

:32:16.:32:24.

Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,

:32:25.:32:31.

strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,

:32:32.:32:36.

let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The

:32:37.:32:40.

young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at

:32:41.:32:45.

Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its

:32:46.:32:50.

leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of

:32:51.:32:53.

the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they

:32:54.:32:59.

are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was

:33:00.:33:04.

against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just

:33:05.:33:10.

one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?

:33:11.:33:16.

Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in

:33:17.:33:25.

the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting

:33:26.:33:33.

Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide

:33:34.:33:37.

bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to

:33:38.:33:41.

that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been

:33:42.:33:47.

politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,

:33:48.:33:50.

Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and

:33:51.:33:55.

countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist

:33:56.:34:02.

-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If

:34:03.:34:06.

Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look

:34:07.:34:11.

forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join

:34:12.:34:14.

Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist

:34:15.:34:17.

offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got

:34:18.:34:22.

worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your

:34:23.:34:25.

argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of

:34:26.:34:27.

Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?

:34:28.:34:33.

The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to

:34:34.:34:37.

absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me

:34:38.:34:43.

finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It

:34:44.:34:46.

has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth

:34:47.:34:51.

continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically

:34:52.:34:56.

correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to

:34:57.:35:00.

deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in

:35:01.:35:03.

Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a

:35:04.:35:08.

crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are

:35:09.:35:13.

competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are

:35:14.:35:15.

seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians

:35:16.:35:21.

are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims

:35:22.:35:26.

should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.

:35:27.:35:32.

There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to

:35:33.:35:37.

take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many

:35:38.:35:41.

reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on

:35:42.:35:45.

the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in

:35:46.:35:50.

this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A

:35:51.:35:56.

poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would

:35:57.:35:58.

not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to

:35:59.:36:06.

the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they

:36:07.:36:13.

could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.

:36:14.:36:17.

What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current

:36:18.:36:23.

understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university

:36:24.:36:27.

campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material

:36:28.:36:33.

that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of

:36:34.:36:36.

thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is

:36:37.:36:43.

freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is

:36:44.:36:48.

through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights

:36:49.:36:54.

to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a

:36:55.:37:00.

gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many

:37:01.:37:05.

people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That

:37:06.:37:10.

is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights

:37:11.:37:17.

point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not

:37:18.:37:20.

suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people

:37:21.:37:26.

don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be

:37:27.:37:32.

opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human

:37:33.:37:39.

rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution

:37:40.:37:42.

like Salford University you should be held responsible for not

:37:43.:37:45.

cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge

:37:46.:37:50.

extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually

:37:51.:37:56.

counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not

:37:57.:38:01.

about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most

:38:02.:38:05.

effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it

:38:06.:38:13.

doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking

:38:14.:38:17.

place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims

:38:18.:38:22.

in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are

:38:23.:38:27.

homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend

:38:28.:38:30.

among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea

:38:31.:38:34.

that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is

:38:35.:38:40.

also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are

:38:41.:38:43.

defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a

:38:44.:38:47.

better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to

:38:48.:38:50.

get real about that. Thank you very much.

:38:51.:38:52.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:53.:38:54.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:55.:38:57.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:58.:39:05.

Welcome to Sunday Politics in the west.

:39:06.:39:08.

The independents trying to get their message

:39:09.:39:17.

across in the general election campaign.

:39:18.:39:22.

I'm joined again by four election hopefuls.

:39:23.:39:25.

They are the Conservative Simon Hoare, Labour's Thangam Debbonaire,

:39:26.:39:28.

Gideon Amos for the Lib Dems and UKIP's Ernie Warrender.

:39:29.:39:32.

We meet with our hearts broken for those victims

:39:33.:39:39.

Of course, in our horror and disgust - we're turning to the politicians

:39:40.:39:43.

to see how they plan to keep us safe in a dangerous world.

:39:44.:39:47.

The answer for Labour's Diane Abbott is a big

:39:48.:39:49.

The reason that we had to, we had to promised 10,000 extra police

:39:50.:40:06.

officers is that an Theresa May 's watch they are 20,000 police

:40:07.:40:10.

officers down so the cost of the entire package which is 10,000 extra

:40:11.:40:18.

police officers, 3000 firefighters, 1000 security people, it would be

:40:19.:40:23.

470 million. Diane Abbott on the 470 million. Diane Abbott on the

:40:24.:40:28.

Andrew Marr show. Simon, all have the Conservatives cut 20,000 police

:40:29.:40:34.

officers? We haven't. You have. We set the budget at the Home Office

:40:35.:40:38.

and commissioners Aji Constable decide whether resources are

:40:39.:40:42.

deployed. You know that if you don't give them the money then they can

:40:43.:40:44.

stop Mac what we have done because stop Mac what we have done because

:40:45.:40:47.

of the nature of policing, we know it is changing, the nature of

:40:48.:40:52.

terrorism is changing as we saw at the tragic event in Manchester. . We

:40:53.:40:58.

have to change the way that we deliver our security and policing

:40:59.:41:01.

services so that is why the government, since 2010, has been

:41:02.:41:06.

putting more money into organisations like MI5 and GCHQ as a

:41:07.:41:10.

remind ourselves, as I think this is remind ourselves, as I think this is

:41:11.:41:16.

the important thing, the issue is fundamentally about trust. We have a

:41:17.:41:20.

Shadow Chancellor who said he would disband MI5 and disarm the police.

:41:21.:41:28.

That is Labour's vision. You cannot trust the Labour Party... Hang on.

:41:29.:41:33.

Lots of words and this is actions. You have cut budgets would have

:41:34.:41:38.

forced police authorities to reduce the number of full-time officers,

:41:39.:41:41.

and even in Somerset there are 602 down since 2010. Crime has been

:41:42.:41:46.

following if you look at statistics across the country. What we have to

:41:47.:41:50.

ensure and I think people really nor in the heart of hearts, when you

:41:51.:41:55.

look at the Conservative Party we are the only party who can be really

:41:56.:41:59.

trusted on delivering a secure country. Ex-mac Gideon Amos, do you

:42:00.:42:09.

agree? The Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Patrick, for us,

:42:10.:42:13.

he has made very clear we need to put an extra 300 million into

:42:14.:42:19.

policing. We need to release the 1% cap on police pay, which of course

:42:20.:42:24.

is damaging to morale. Conservatives are also cutting the armed services.

:42:25.:42:28.

200 Royal Marines poster going, Royal Marines can in Taunton Deane

:42:29.:42:34.

is closing. You would reverse that? We would. Your policy is to roll

:42:35.:42:40.

back surveillance and scrap the present programme. Is that wise? The

:42:41.:42:47.

present programme has been showing to be not working, what we need is a

:42:48.:42:52.

programme that is successful. What Brian Patrick has pointed out is

:42:53.:42:55.

targeting people get her to make sure we are achieving... You are

:42:56.:43:00.

against, you're fighting against encryption on what SAP and whatnot.

:43:01.:43:06.

What we say is that having lighted surveillance on everything and

:43:07.:43:09.

everyone is not the most successful week to identify terrorism. Only six

:43:10.:43:19.

Lib Dem MPs bothered to vote on the investigatory Powers act which

:43:20.:43:20.

brought together all the powers under one act. Six Lib Dem... To

:43:21.:43:27.

answer your question, the reason is as I was saying, that blanket

:43:28.:43:33.

surveillance when you invest huge resources... We would go down that

:43:34.:43:41.

line. Thangam Debbonaire, R Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott the

:43:42.:43:44.

accommodation to keep us safe? You decide Diane Abbott is it we would

:43:45.:43:48.

reverse cuts to police funding and we would have 10,000 extra police

:43:49.:43:52.

officers at a cost of 0.3 million that makes you buy 3 billion. We

:43:53.:43:56.

know how much it will cost unlike the Tory manifesto and we have

:43:57.:43:59.

worked out what our commitments will worked out what our commitments will

:44:00.:44:02.

cost them where we will get the money from. We will invest in border

:44:03.:44:08.

forces, which the Tory government has cut. Theresa May who has been

:44:09.:44:11.

Home Secretary before she was Prime Minister, she is trying to act as

:44:12.:44:14.

though nothing has gone wrong on her watch. Ex-mac do you agree with

:44:15.:44:19.

Jeremy Corbyn that part of the terror problem is our own fault? The

:44:20.:44:23.

fault of foreign policy? That is not what he said, he said

:44:24.:44:28.

down terrorism, causes of terrorism down terrorism, causes of terrorism

:44:29.:44:31.

are not foreign policy alone, he said that context is important. Do

:44:32.:44:38.

you agree? As Boris John has also said context is incredibly

:44:39.:44:44.

important. I used to work with violent men before I was a

:44:45.:44:47.

politician and although the responsibility is always an then,

:44:48.:44:53.

context did play a part. We got part of this on ourselves? That is not

:44:54.:44:57.

I'm seeing, it is important to I'm seeing, it is important to

:44:58.:45:01.

consider context. A Labour government would not be selling arms

:45:02.:45:05.

to despotic regimes regimes where there are concerns about

:45:06.:45:09.

international human rights. The Tory government is saying yes to arms

:45:10.:45:12.

exports to 20 countries that their own foreign and Commonwealth of this

:45:13.:45:17.

the context. If you help our people the context. If you help our people

:45:18.:45:22.

who are going to cause human rights violations are helping to Stuttgart

:45:23.:45:26.

fuel and hatred. It is part of the context. You are part of the

:45:27.:45:32.

Parliamentary group on refugees, can you understand why some voters may

:45:33.:45:34.

not think that having more refugees coming into the country may not be

:45:35.:45:40.

wise? I know that every time I talk to people about refugees, I say to

:45:41.:45:44.

someone in this country was at war and we were in conflict with you

:45:45.:45:47.

expect our neighbours and neighbours and friends and allies to help as

:45:48.:45:48.

they say yes. And when I say someone they say yes. And when I say someone

:45:49.:45:52.

is fleeing persecution and torture and terror, do you think we should

:45:53.:45:56.

welcome them and they say yes, but they also say that he will come must

:45:57.:46:00.

be properly be sourced and worked out and is ten of the parliamentary

:46:01.:46:03.

group I initiated an enquiry that did exactly that, we worked out how

:46:04.:46:11.

to improve the welcome that we give. The security checks? Security checks

:46:12.:46:14.

are important and that is why under a Labour government we would

:46:15.:46:21.

increase border patrols. And anyone from Ukip, you promise more police

:46:22.:46:24.

and prison officers. How would you pay? Typify this we have HS2, the

:46:25.:46:30.

Victorian railway which the Tories are intent on providing when I can

:46:31.:46:34.

get a phone signal let alone transfer data, there is a huge chunk

:46:35.:46:38.

of money that we don't have but they will find it from somewhere, and we

:46:39.:46:42.

want to put the foreign aid budget in line with Obama 's America and

:46:43.:46:47.

Japan. With Jamaica for not so we Japan. With Jamaica for not so we

:46:48.:46:57.

can hear you. Basically we have touched on security here. We don't

:46:58.:47:04.

have much on security, freedom of movement, people can, Glasgow

:47:05.:47:09.

please. That is just not true. -- people can come and go as they

:47:10.:47:13.

finally. You say it is not true but finally. You say it is not true but

:47:14.:47:19.

everyone is satisfied sky to freedom of movement. Theresa May has Home

:47:20.:47:26.

Secretary was booed offstage at the Police Federation conference in

:47:27.:47:31.

2012. We need more police and a more visible presence but we also need,

:47:32.:47:34.

we did a wonderful thing in the fifties... Theresa May was booed by

:47:35.:47:44.

the Police Federation. To take Thangam's point, let's put that into

:47:45.:47:49.

context, it was a tough speech that the Prime Minister gave us Home

:47:50.:47:51.

Secretary access to the Police Federation, which the readership

:47:52.:47:55.

then accepted, that they needed to modernise and change the ways that

:47:56.:47:59.

the operated as an organisation. That is where some of the building

:48:00.:48:04.

came from. I don't think the key message from Theresa May has Home

:48:05.:48:07.

Secretary and Prime Minister would be booed by the police because I

:48:08.:48:11.

think they know quite rightly that has Home Secretary she made sure

:48:12.:48:16.

whether it was sorting out stop and search are putting in place the

:48:17.:48:20.

investigatory Powers act, making sure that our security and police

:48:21.:48:23.

services and increasingly as we talk about integration... Very sorry, no

:48:24.:48:28.

speeches. Thangam what would you say to that? I would challenge what

:48:29.:48:33.

you're saying, I think it is that we are clear, there is a context we

:48:34.:48:38.

response ability for terrorism has response ability for terrorism has

:48:39.:48:42.

to be on the terrorist, however not having enough police makes people

:48:43.:48:46.

feel fearful, people in Bristol and beyond have told me about their

:48:47.:48:49.

anxieties about police cuts and they want them reversed. Treat people as

:48:50.:48:54.

you would be treated as saying that would apply to Theresa May at the

:48:55.:48:59.

least Federation, as public servants feel they're being treated badly by

:49:00.:49:03.

Conservative ministers not only on paper than the way talked about and

:49:04.:49:06.

that is the reaction they will get. Thank you.

:49:07.:49:08.

Increased security measures have been in place at the Tall Ships

:49:09.:49:11.

But that hasn't stopped thousands of people enjoying

:49:12.:49:14.

But what are their thoughts on who should captain the country

:49:15.:49:18.

Hello, welcome aboard. It is a glorious day for it. 50,000 people

:49:19.:49:38.

expected through the doors today and we are on board the topsail schooner

:49:39.:49:42.

I am told, one of seven tall ships in the stocks. It is sealed up from

:49:43.:49:49.

Bristol for the bank holiday weekend. And Jack Sparrow from

:49:50.:49:54.

Pirates of the Caribbean is currently engaged in a sword fight.

:49:55.:50:00.

This area has always been a duel between the Conservatives and Labour

:50:01.:50:04.

in with the polls narrowing the undecideds could be crucial so where

:50:05.:50:08.

better than the tall ships Festival to look for the 14 border?

:50:09.:50:19.

And he worked out who your going to vote for? I was conservative but now

:50:20.:50:25.

I am not sure, she is scrapping the I am not sure, she is scrapping the

:50:26.:50:30.

free meals. My son gets a free meals while not sure now. I am a

:50:31.:50:36.

Conservative voter and I will be again. I'm a teacher so I have

:50:37.:50:45.

experienced how bad it has been for local schools to have the budget cut

:50:46.:50:53.

and they will cut them again. I have lived been not pro-Tory. Not

:50:54.:50:58.

pro-Tory at all but Weaver makes more sense to me. Getting a third of

:50:59.:51:06.

the US move them quickly as possible. I am astonished

:51:07.:51:14.

Conservative. James is staunch Labour. Do you get along? We do. We

:51:15.:51:23.

are the best of friends. I think the weights have got some very good

:51:24.:51:29.

points extract we are supporters of good King George III, long may he

:51:30.:51:33.

reign! He is a bit mad but aren't we all nowadays? They will see us

:51:34.:51:41.

through. Only in the West of England. Our thanks to Robin

:51:42.:51:46.

Markwell for bringing us that bit of light relief. Let's talk politics

:51:47.:51:52.

again. Thangam, the polls are narrowing, aren't they? Do you think

:51:53.:51:56.

Mr Corrigan can make it and be in ten Downing St? I don't want to call

:51:57.:52:02.

to go, a week in four days, the to go, a week in four days, the

:52:03.:52:06.

result of play for. What I am finding and what my colleagues are

:52:07.:52:10.

telling me is there is a mixture of things people are concerned about,

:52:11.:52:14.

school cuts, concerned about cuts to the police, the worried about the

:52:15.:52:18.

National Health Service. All of those things have an answer in the

:52:19.:52:20.

Labour manifesto and I'm guessing that is why people are warming to

:52:21.:52:25.

us. They are warming to Mr Corbyn as well but you resigned and would not

:52:26.:52:28.

work with them on the front bench because you thought he was

:52:29.:52:32.

incompetent. Yes and here we are with the great manifesto which I'm

:52:33.:52:35.

fully behind, I'm delighted about it. I did press Karen Smith your

:52:36.:52:41.

colleague on this last week. And you look at me and say aye think Jeremy

:52:42.:52:45.

Corbyn would make a good Prime Minister. I think a Labour Prime

:52:46.:52:49.

Minister will be so much better than a Tory Prime Minister. You can't get

:52:50.:53:00.

the words out. Now you, Simon, this idea of putting up Theresa May and

:53:01.:53:05.

ignoring the conservative brand almost if you like, that seems ill

:53:06.:53:11.

backfired. I have seen no evidence of that. She is the leader of the

:53:12.:53:19.

Conservative Party and Prime Minister of the Conservative

:53:20.:53:22.

government. This is one of the leaflets going through the doors.

:53:23.:53:25.

The word conservative is down there. The word conservative is down there.

:53:26.:53:30.

What I pointed out was when you opened it down there is Theresa May

:53:31.:53:32.

and there were Conservatives with our logo also I think it is very

:53:33.:53:37.

hard to suggest that people in this country would not know the Theresa

:53:38.:53:39.

Conservative Prime Minister. Let me Conservative Prime Minister. Let me

:53:40.:53:45.

now very serious times. We have the now very serious times. We have the

:53:46.:53:51.

difficult job of delivering Brexit. I think the country knows that you

:53:52.:53:58.

want a steadfast reliable tried and tested leader of the country. And

:53:59.:54:03.

not... It is certainly not Mr Farren not... It is certainly not Mr Farren

:54:04.:54:09.

and it is certainly not Mr Corbyn who we know cannot be trusted and

:54:10.:54:14.

security. You cannot be trusted on defence or the economy. Do you

:54:15.:54:18.

accept that the manifesto that Mrs Mary put out in her name, she said

:54:19.:54:25.

it is my manifesto, it is dour, it offers nothing for you to sell on

:54:26.:54:32.

the doorstep. Austerity cuts. I am a parent of three children and when I

:54:33.:54:37.

talked other parents about additional money for education,

:54:38.:54:38.

about making sure that children also about making sure that children also

:54:39.:54:41.

have a free breakfast when they need, that is going down very well.

:54:42.:54:46.

What we have is a sensible deliverable programme of government,

:54:47.:54:51.

delivering on the referendum but proving that we can both Rob our

:54:52.:54:54.

heads and patter tummies at the same time. We have a wider domestic

:54:55.:55:03.

agenda of reform and diving... Let's bring in the Lib Dems. We need

:55:04.:55:07.

strong people in politics but strong people who will stand up to school

:55:08.:55:09.

cuts, stand up to the watering down cuts, stand up to the watering down

:55:10.:55:13.

of funding for National Health Service. If we are having Brexit

:55:14.:55:17.

then what we need is members of Parliament who will stand up to keep

:55:18.:55:19.

the free trade we have had for the free trade we have had for

:55:20.:55:23.

decades rather than risking us crashing out of Europe was no deal

:55:24.:55:27.

and that is really worrying employers in the constituency in

:55:28.:55:30.

Taunton Deane, it is worrying anybody who has a job that is only

:55:31.:55:34.

affected by European trade and those of a kind of strong issues we need

:55:35.:55:39.

to think about. The except Brexit is going to happen? If the majority

:55:40.:55:46.

continues to be in favour of Brexit. We have never seen the deal that was

:55:47.:55:51.

top of it, no one has had a chance to see it let alone vote on it. But

:55:52.:55:57.

what importantly if we are going out of Europe then we have to protect

:55:58.:56:00.

the best that we have with Europe. You keep seeing F, you have not

:56:01.:56:04.

accepted it. You have not accepted the will of the people? We believe

:56:05.:56:09.

that when the deal comes back a first referendum on the deal with

:56:10.:56:12.

the option to remain should be there. Let's bring in any from Ukip.

:56:13.:56:19.

Brexit will happen, so it is job done, you can stand down can't you?

:56:20.:56:24.

Mrs May is a remainder, the Chancellor is a remainder, most of

:56:25.:56:28.

our front bench is a remainder, the chap who wrote the manifesto, now it

:56:29.:56:34.

is not done. I actually agree with Gideon, you need strong members of

:56:35.:56:38.

Parliament up there because I don't believe we are going to get the

:56:39.:56:41.

Brexit the people thought it would get. We have seen back sliding

:56:42.:56:46.

already, the European Court of Human Rights will remain in force until

:56:47.:56:52.

2022. I'm sorry was I talking when you're interrupting? There was only

:56:53.:56:56.

knew what they were voting for, the knew what they were voting for, the

:56:57.:57:00.

wound. There was one question. You want to be in the European Union,

:57:01.:57:05.

yes or no? So when you see you now that people wanted to leave then you

:57:06.:57:09.

don't know. You will see David Cameron and George Osborne crystal

:57:10.:57:11.

clear seniors wanting to leave the single market, or neutered. I wanted

:57:12.:57:18.

about Pope -- public spending. Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party

:57:19.:57:22.

offer for extra bank holidays, what police, feature is in and the rest

:57:23.:57:24.

of it. We are confident that the of it. We are confident that the

:57:25.:57:28.

sums add up and the country we afford it? I have been through the

:57:29.:57:34.

costing stop -- costings document prepared by the Labour Party and

:57:35.:57:37.

we'll how much it'll cost to have the extra police officers and where

:57:38.:57:41.

we will get money from. The costings document is a good document, EIF S

:57:42.:57:45.

have made a few criticisms that we are well of Abbey well I just four,

:57:46.:57:51.

but what they also did they said the Conservative manifesto was barely

:57:52.:57:54.

costed at all and that is the real question here. We don't go as far as

:57:55.:58:00.

the public spending, and as the Institute for Fiscal Studies have

:58:01.:58:04.

said they do not believe the sums add up for Labour conservatives. Our

:58:05.:58:08.

only change in income taxes 1p on the rate of income tax for the

:58:09.:58:12.

health service which people understand, they can see that ring

:58:13.:58:15.

fenced money going to the health service. We must have manifesto that

:58:16.:58:24.

Does your manifesto add up? Of Does your manifesto add up? Of

:58:25.:58:30.

course it does. What EIF S has said is that if you look at the Labour

:58:31.:58:32.

Party manifesto, and what we're trying to do now was encourage

:58:33.:58:37.

business to grow and encourage people to pay and invest. If you are

:58:38.:58:46.

to deliver policies were real mass lies Asian was not costed,... We are

:58:47.:58:56.

just taking franchises back. You would have the highest tax burden

:58:57.:59:03.

for 70 years. The Ukip manifesto is 90% the same in 2015, although have

:59:04.:59:08.

changed. They want politicians with foresight hindsight?

:59:09.:59:11.

We've spoken to all the main parties on Sunday Politics over

:59:12.:59:14.

But there are independent and minor party candidates standing in just

:59:15.:59:17.

Martin Jones has been to meet some of them.

:59:18.:59:21.

A warning - his report does contain a man in a pink leotard.

:59:22.:59:29.

Vote for the monster raving loony party. Driving the message home,

:59:30.:59:35.

comedy candidate making a serious point. Disabled firefighter George

:59:36.:59:40.

standing for the monster raving loony party. And raising money for

:59:41.:59:46.

behind him it is all coming from his behind him it is all coming from his

:59:47.:59:53.

own pocket. Will cost me eight or ?900 but do you spend it in ?100 on

:59:54.:59:57.

a weeks holiday something? I don't know. I'm having three weeks fun. It

:59:58.:00:06.

Nonvoters vote for the monster Nonvoters vote for the monster

:00:07.:00:08.

raving with a party. Your vote counts. With no team to help

:00:09.:00:15.

canvassing is a slow and lonely job. In Bristol and other one-man

:00:16.:00:19.

campaign but with naked ambition. campaign but with naked ambition.

:00:20.:00:23.

Former adult film producer John Langley protesting after being

:00:24.:00:28.

barred from a women's hustings. It is quite fun to be an independent

:00:29.:00:32.

candidate, I am now dressed like this. The only thing I am short of

:00:33.:00:36.

its high heels but I did not want to make myself look stupid. It is tough

:00:37.:00:40.

being an independent when you're not being invited to speak at some of

:00:41.:00:46.

the hustings. After all there is no such thing as bad publicity. It is

:00:47.:00:53.

also vital for independents to explain the ideas. Especially

:00:54.:00:57.

radical ones. And he ever heard of a research-based economy? He money

:00:58.:01:01.

free party believes in a research-based economy, world

:01:02.:01:06.

without money or work. But it is a real job getting the message across.

:01:07.:01:11.

You at the man who is claiming that you're going to get rid of all money

:01:12.:01:14.

and have an offer everyone. You're telling me... In a monopoly -based

:01:15.:01:19.

system you cannot allow what he wants to get through. Even if you

:01:20.:01:24.

don't believe in money you still need ?500 for the deposit. I

:01:25.:01:28.

borrowed that from my parents, that money there. I haven't got spare

:01:29.:01:34.

cash lying about for such a investment as that so I said to him

:01:35.:01:38.

if I can borrowed of you I will pay it back in instalments and I want

:01:39.:01:41.

deposit. So you got some free money? deposit. So you got some free money?

:01:42.:01:48.

It is debt -based. While independents may face an uphill

:01:49.:01:51.

struggle, no one can see all struggle, no one can see all

:01:52.:01:54.

candidates are the same. Makes you proud to be British.

:01:55.:01:55.

My thanks to my guests Simon Hoare, Thangam Debbonaire, Gideon Amos

:01:56.:01:59.

re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.

:02:00.:02:04.

Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election

:02:05.:02:18.

campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.

:02:19.:02:26.

Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is

:02:27.:02:29.

that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who

:02:30.:02:36.

do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only

:02:37.:02:40.

be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters

:02:41.:02:44.

this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about

:02:45.:02:51.

Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,

:02:52.:02:57.

is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the

:02:58.:03:00.

tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech

:03:01.:03:05.

last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin

:03:06.:03:10.

analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I

:03:11.:03:15.

think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack

:03:16.:03:24.

just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister

:03:25.:03:27.

has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,

:03:28.:03:32.

it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic

:03:33.:03:40.

attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You

:03:41.:03:47.

raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader

:03:48.:03:51.

argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two

:03:52.:03:55.

courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation

:03:56.:04:00.

about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.

:04:01.:04:06.

You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign

:04:07.:04:14.

by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by

:04:15.:04:18.

politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a

:04:19.:04:22.

divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue

:04:23.:04:29.

that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply

:04:30.:04:34.

unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me

:04:35.:04:41.

does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic

:04:42.:04:48.

event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue

:04:49.:04:54.

that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political

:04:55.:05:01.

battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a

:05:02.:05:06.

tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree

:05:07.:05:13.

or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a

:05:14.:05:17.

time to review the level of argument? This is a political

:05:18.:05:23.

debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and

:05:24.:05:26.

about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We

:05:27.:05:32.

mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when

:05:33.:05:40.

we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a

:05:41.:05:43.

lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do

:05:44.:05:49.

you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that

:05:50.:05:54.

suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,

:05:55.:05:58.

which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.

:05:59.:06:02.

Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to

:06:03.:06:06.

grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power

:06:07.:06:14.

Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And

:06:15.:06:20.

not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another

:06:21.:06:25.

example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David

:06:26.:06:30.

Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now

:06:31.:06:34.

heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I

:06:35.:06:40.

personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the

:06:41.:06:46.

major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of

:06:47.:06:50.

terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate

:06:51.:06:54.

terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be

:06:55.:06:58.

supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an

:06:59.:07:02.

election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the

:07:03.:07:06.

Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a

:07:07.:07:10.

great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that

:07:11.:07:17.

will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole

:07:18.:07:22.

point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not

:07:23.:07:26.

quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less

:07:27.:07:29.

impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just

:07:30.:07:34.

repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They

:07:35.:07:39.

like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we

:07:40.:07:43.

see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting

:07:44.:07:46.

to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are

:07:47.:07:51.

asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will

:07:52.:07:58.

that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in

:07:59.:08:08.

terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why

:08:09.:08:12.

she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will

:08:13.:08:19.

absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is

:08:20.:08:23.

a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65

:08:24.:08:29.

million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.

:08:30.:08:36.

It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you

:08:37.:08:40.

think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they

:08:41.:08:45.

will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls

:08:46.:08:51.

and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to

:08:52.:08:56.

get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on

:08:57.:09:02.

one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume

:09:03.:09:05.

that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable

:09:06.:09:09.

campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.

:09:10.:09:14.

On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.

:09:15.:09:21.

Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the

:09:22.:09:25.

Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have

:09:26.:09:30.

had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.

:09:31.:09:35.

Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home

:09:36.:09:39.

Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home

:09:40.:09:43.

office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government

:09:44.:09:48.

has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in

:09:49.:09:52.

additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in

:09:53.:09:55.

the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You

:09:56.:10:01.

voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on

:10:02.:10:06.

that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.

:10:07.:10:11.

We are making good progress with the companies who put in place

:10:12.:10:13.

encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.

:10:14.:10:20.

I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same

:10:21.:10:24.

hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The

:10:25.:10:30.

hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,

:10:31.:10:35.

you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the

:10:36.:10:42.

views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my

:10:43.:10:45.

hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of

:10:46.:10:52.

how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides

:10:53.:10:56.

talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election

:10:57.:11:01.

debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it

:11:02.:11:07.

and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm

:11:08.:11:10.

glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane

:11:11.:11:16.

Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage

:11:17.:11:22.

votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that

:11:23.:11:27.

legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they

:11:28.:11:33.

are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I

:11:34.:11:44.

did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.

:11:45.:11:49.

That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it

:11:50.:12:01.

seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault

:12:02.:12:07.

of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which

:12:08.:12:10.

the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would

:12:11.:12:14.

imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my

:12:15.:12:19.

judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would

:12:20.:12:22.

be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and

:12:23.:12:29.

performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the

:12:30.:12:36.

economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I

:12:37.:12:44.

don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd

:12:45.:12:48.

is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be

:12:49.:12:52.

debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the

:12:53.:12:57.

electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like

:12:58.:13:01.

to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking

:13:02.:13:05.

forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the

:13:06.:13:11.

week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our

:13:12.:13:18.

guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil

:13:19.:13:22.

will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.

:13:23.:13:29.

That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a

:13:30.:13:33.

very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.

:13:34.:14:08.

As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them

:14:09.:14:11.

the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.

:14:12.:14:21.

One minute to get the food on the plate.

:14:22.:14:22.

..team them up with a Michelin starred chef,

:14:23.:14:27.

putting their reputation on the line.

:14:28.:14:28.

..which team will have the recipe for success?

:14:29.:14:35.

One minute to get the food on the plate.

:14:36.:14:38.

Jo Coburn and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

Professor of politics John Curtice, minister for security Ben Wallace, shadow justice minister Richard Burgon, author and commentator Douglas Murray, and director of Inspire (counter-extremism and women's rights organization) Sara Khan are among the guests.

Journalists Steve Richards, Tim Marshall and Julia Hartley-Brewer make up the political panel.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS