21/05/2017 Sunday Politics West


21/05/2017

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by David Gauke and Peter Dowd.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

Labour attacks Conservative plans for social care and to means-test

:00:41.:00:42.

So can Jeremy Corbyn eat into the Tory lead

:00:43.:00:45.

Theresa May says her party's manifesto is all about fairness.

:00:46.:00:51.

We'll be speaking to a Conservative cabinet minister about the plans.

:00:52.:00:55.

The polls have always shown healthy leads for the Conservatives.

:00:56.:00:58.

But, now we've seen the manifestos, is Labour narrowing the gap?

:00:59.:01:02.

In the West: Protests about school funding,

:01:03.:01:04.

and at the other end of the scale: the elderly may lose out,

:01:05.:01:07.

And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

:01:08.:01:23.

panel in the business: Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott

:01:24.:01:25.

and Steve Richards - they'll be tweeting throughout

:01:26.:01:27.

the programme, and you can get involved by using

:01:28.:01:29.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says pensioners will be up to ?330 a year

:01:30.:01:38.

worse off under plans outlined in the Conservative manifesto.

:01:39.:01:49.

The Work Pensions Secretary Damian Green has said his party will not

:01:50.:01:55.

rethink their plans to fund social care in England. Under the plans in

:01:56.:02:00.

the Conservative manifesto, nobody with assets of less than ?100,000,

:02:01.:02:06.

would have to pay for care. Labour has attacked the proposal, and John

:02:07.:02:11.

McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor, said this morning that

:02:12.:02:14.

there needs to be more cross-party consensus.

:02:15.:02:17.

That's why we supported Dilnot, but we also supported

:02:18.:02:19.

Because we've got to have something sustainable over generations,

:02:20.:02:23.

so that's why we've said to the Conservative Party,

:02:24.:02:25.

Let's go back to that cross-party approach that actually

:02:26.:02:28.

I just feel we've all been let down by what's come

:02:29.:02:32.

Sam, is Labour beginning to get their argument across? What we had

:02:33.:02:42.

last week was bluntly what felt like not very Lynton Crosby approved

:02:43.:02:46.

Conservative manifesto. What I mean by that is that it looks like there

:02:47.:02:50.

are things that will cause political difficulties for the party over this

:02:51.:02:55.

campaign. I've been talking to MPs and ministers who acknowledge that

:02:56.:02:59.

the social care plan is coming up on the doorstep. It has cut through

:03:00.:03:05.

very quickly, and it is worrying and deterring some voters. Not just

:03:06.:03:09.

pensioners, that people who are looking to inherit in the future.

:03:10.:03:21.

They are all asking how much they could lose that they wouldn't have

:03:22.:03:23.

lost before. A difficult question for the party to answer, given that

:03:24.:03:26.

they don't want to give too much away now. Was this a mistake, or a

:03:27.:03:31.

sign of the Conservatives' confidence? It has the hallmarks of

:03:32.:03:38.

something that has been cobbled together in a very unnaturally short

:03:39.:03:42.

time frame for putting a manifesto together. We have had mixed messages

:03:43.:03:47.

from the Tory MPs who have been out on the airwaves this morning as to

:03:48.:03:50.

whether they will consult on it whether it is just a starting point.

:03:51.:03:55.

That said, there is still three weeks to go, and most of the Tory

:03:56.:04:02.

party this morning feel this is a little light turbulence rather than

:04:03.:04:05.

anything that leaves the destination of victory in doubt. It it flips the

:04:06.:04:09.

normal politics. The Tories are going to make people who have a

:04:10.:04:13.

reasonable amount of assets pay for their social care. What is wrong

:04:14.:04:20.

with that? First, total credit for them for not pretending that all

:04:21.:04:23.

this can be done by magic, which is what normally happens in an

:04:24.:04:28.

election. The party will say, we will review this for the 95th time

:04:29.:04:33.

in the following Parliament, so they have no mandate to do anything and

:04:34.:04:37.

so do not do anything. It is courageous to do it. It is

:04:38.:04:41.

electorally risky, for the reasons that you suggest, that they pass the

:04:42.:04:47.

target their own natural supporter. And there is a sense that this is

:04:48.:04:53.

rushed through, in the frenzy to get it done in time. I think the ending

:04:54.:04:58.

of the pooling of risk and putting the entire burden on in inverted

:04:59.:05:04.

commas the victim, because you cannot insure Fritz, is against the

:05:05.:05:12.

spirit of a lot of the rest of the manifesto, and will give them huge

:05:13.:05:16.

problems if they try to implement it in the next Parliament. Let's have a

:05:17.:05:25.

look at the polls. Nearly five weeks ago, on Tuesday the 18th of April,

:05:26.:05:29.

Theresa May called the election. At that point, this was the median

:05:30.:05:34.

average of the recent polls. The Conservatives had an 18 point lead

:05:35.:05:40.

over Labour on 25%. Ukip and the Liberal Democrats were both on 18%.

:05:41.:05:49.

A draft of Labour's manifesto was leaked to the press. In the

:05:50.:05:53.

intervening weeks, support for the Conservatives and Labour had

:05:54.:05:56.

increased, that it had decreased for the Lib Dems and Ukip. Last Tuesday

:05:57.:06:02.

came the launch of the official Labour manifesto. By that time,

:06:03.:06:08.

Labour support had gone up by another 2%. The Lib Dems and Ukip

:06:09.:06:13.

had slipped back slightly. Later in the week came the manifestos from

:06:14.:06:18.

the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. This morning, for more polls. This

:06:19.:06:22.

is how the parties currently stand on average. Labour are now on 34%,

:06:23.:06:30.

up 4% since the launch of their manifesto. The Conservatives are

:06:31.:06:34.

down two points since last Tuesday. Ukip and the Lib Dems are both

:06:35.:06:41.

unchanged on 8% and 5%. You can find this poll tracker on the BBC

:06:42.:06:46.

website, see how it was calculated, and see the results of national

:06:47.:06:51.

polls over the last two years. So Isabel, is this the Tories' wobbly

:06:52.:06:55.

weekend or the start of the narrowing? This is still an

:06:56.:07:00.

extremely healthy lead for the Tories. At the start of this

:07:01.:07:06.

campaign, most commentators expected to things to happen. First, the Lib

:07:07.:07:12.

Dems would have a significant surge. That hasn't happened. Second, Labour

:07:13.:07:17.

would crash and plummet. Instead they are in the health of the low

:07:18.:07:22.

30s. I wonder if that tells you something about the tribal nature of

:07:23.:07:28.

the Labour vote, and the continuing problems with the Tory brand. I

:07:29.:07:33.

would say that a lot of Tory MPs wouldn't be too unhappy if Labour's

:07:34.:07:38.

result isn't quite as bad as has been anticipated. They don't want

:07:39.:07:45.

Corbyn to go anywhere. If the latest polls were to be the result on June

:07:46.:07:51.

the 8th, Mr Corbyn may not be in a rush to go anywhere. I still think

:07:52.:07:56.

it depends on the number of seats. If there is a landslide win, I

:07:57.:08:01.

think, one way or another, he will not stay. If it is much narrower, he

:08:02.:08:07.

has grounds for arguing he has done better than anticipated. The polls

:08:08.:08:12.

are very interesting. People compare this with 83. In 83, the Tory lead

:08:13.:08:17.

widened consistently throughout the campaign. There was the SDP -

:08:18.:08:30.

Liberal Alliance doing well in the polls. Here, the Lib Dems don't seem

:08:31.:08:33.

to be doing that. So the parallels with 83 don't really stack up. But

:08:34.:08:35.

let's see what happens. Still early days for the a lot of people are

:08:36.:08:39.

saying this is the result of the social care policy. We don't really

:08:40.:08:43.

know that. How do you beat them? In the last week or so, there's been

:08:44.:08:47.

the decision by some to hold their nose and vote Labour, who haven't

:08:48.:08:52.

done so before. Probably the biggest thing in this election is how the

:08:53.:08:56.

Right has reunited behind Theresa May. That figure for Ukip is

:08:57.:09:03.

incredibly small. She has brought those Ukip voters behind her, and

:09:04.:09:09.

that could be the decisive factor in many seats, rather than the Labour

:09:10.:09:13.

share of the boat picking up a bit or down a bit, depending on how

:09:14.:09:18.

turbulent the Tory manifesto makes it. Thank you for that.

:09:19.:09:21.

We've finally got our hands on the manifestos of the two main

:09:22.:09:24.

parties and, for once, voters can hardly complain that

:09:25.:09:26.

So, just how big is the choice on offer to the public?

:09:27.:09:30.

Since the Liberal Democrats and SNP have ruled out

:09:31.:09:32.

coalitions after June 8th, Adam Fleming compares the Labour

:09:33.:09:34.

Welcome to the BBC's election centre.

:09:35.:09:37.

Four minutes from now, when Big Ben strikes 10.00,

:09:38.:09:41.

we can legally reveal the contents of this, our exit poll.

:09:42.:09:45.

18 days to go, and the BBC's election night studio

:09:46.:09:48.

This is where David Dimbleby will sit, although there is no chair yet.

:09:49.:09:57.

The parties' policies are now the finished product.

:09:58.:10:01.

In Bradford, Jeremy Corbyn vowed a bigger state,

:10:02.:10:03.

the end of austerity, no more tuition fees.

:10:04.:10:06.

The Tory campaign, by contrast, is built on one word - fear.

:10:07.:10:14.

Down the road in Halifax, Theresa May kept a promise to get

:10:15.:10:22.

immigration down to the tens of thousands, and talked

:10:23.:10:25.

of leadership and tough choices in uncertain times.

:10:26.:10:29.

Strengthen my hand as I fight for Britain, and stand with me

:10:30.:10:35.

And, with confidence in ourselves and a unity

:10:36.:10:41.

of purpose in our country, let us go forward together.

:10:42.:10:48.

Let's look at the Labour and Conservative

:10:49.:10:51.

On tax, Labour would introduce a 50p rate for top earners.

:10:52.:10:57.

The Conservatives ditched their triple lock, giving them

:10:58.:11:21.

freedom to put up income tax and national insurance,

:11:22.:11:23.

although they want to keep the overall tax burden the same.

:11:24.:11:26.

Labour offered a major overhaul of the country's wiring,

:11:27.:11:28.

with a pledge to renationalise infrastructure, like power,

:11:29.:11:30.

The Conservatives said that would cost a fortune,

:11:31.:11:33.

but provided few details for the cost of their policies.

:11:34.:11:35.

Labour have simply become a shambles, and, as yesterday's

:11:36.:11:37.

manifesto showed, their numbers simply do not add up.

:11:38.:11:40.

What have they got planned for health and social care?

:11:41.:11:42.

The Conservatives offered more cash for the NHS,

:11:43.:11:46.

reaching an extra ?8 billion a year by the end of the parliament.

:11:47.:11:49.

Labour promised an extra ?30 billion over the course of the same period,

:11:50.:11:53.

plus free hospital parking and more pay for staff.

:11:54.:11:59.

The Conservatives would increase the value of assets you could

:12:00.:12:06.

protect from the cost of social care to ?100,000, but your home would be

:12:07.:12:10.

added to the assessment of your wealth,

:12:11.:12:11.

There was a focus on one group of voters in particular

:12:12.:12:15.

Labour would keep the triple lock, which guarantees that pensions go up

:12:16.:12:21.

The Tories would keep the increase in line

:12:22.:12:27.

with inflation or earnings, a double lock.

:12:28.:12:30.

The Conservatives would end of winter fuel payments

:12:31.:12:33.

for the richest, although we don't know exactly who that would be,

:12:34.:12:36.

This is a savage attack on vulnerable pensioners,

:12:37.:12:45.

particularly those who are just about managing.

:12:46.:12:49.

It is disgraceful, and we are calling upon the Conservative Party

:12:50.:12:52.

When it comes to leaving the European Union, Labour say

:12:53.:12:59.

they'd sweep away the government's negotiating strategy,

:13:00.:13:02.

secure a better deal and straightaway guaranteed the rights

:13:03.:13:05.

The Tories say a big majority would remove political uncertainty

:13:06.:13:11.

Jeremy Vine's due here in two and a half weeks.

:13:12.:13:23.

I'm joined now by David Gauke, who is Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

:13:24.:13:29.

Welcome back to the programme. The Tories once promised a cap on social

:13:30.:13:36.

care costs. Why have you abandoned that? We've looked at it, and there

:13:37.:13:43.

are couple of proposals with the Dilnot proposal. Much of the benefit

:13:44.:13:48.

would go to those inheriting larger estates. The second point was it was

:13:49.:13:53.

hoped that a cap would stimulate the larger insurance products that would

:13:54.:13:58.

fill the gap, but there is no sign that those products are emerging.

:13:59.:14:04.

Without a cap, you will not get one. We have come forward with a new

:14:05.:14:08.

proposal which we think is fairer, provide more money for social care,

:14:09.:14:12.

which is very important and is one of the big issues we face as a

:14:13.:14:17.

country. It is right that we face those big issues. Social care is

:14:18.:14:23.

one, getting a good Brexit deal is another. This demonstrates that

:14:24.:14:30.

Theresa May has an ambition to lead a government that addresses those

:14:31.:14:33.

big long-term issues. Looking at social care. If you have assets,

:14:34.:14:39.

including your home, of over ?100,000, you have to pay for all

:14:40.:14:43.

your social care costs. Is that fair? It is right that for the

:14:44.:14:47.

services that are provided to you, that that is paid out of your

:14:48.:14:53.

assets, subject to two really important qualifications. First, you

:14:54.:14:57.

shouldn't have your entire estate wiped out. At the moment, if you are

:14:58.:15:04.

in residential care, it can be wiped out ?223,000. If you are in

:15:05.:15:09.

domiciliary care, it can be out to ?23,000, plus you're domiciliary.

:15:10.:15:16.

Nobody should be forced to sell their house in their lifetime if

:15:17.:15:20.

they or their spouse needs long-term care. Again, we have protected that

:15:21.:15:22.

in the proposals we set out. But the state will basically take a

:15:23.:15:32.

chunk of your house when you die and they sell. In an essence it is a

:15:33.:15:37.

stealth inheritance tax on everything above ?100,000. But we

:15:38.:15:41.

have those two important protections. I am including that. It

:15:42.:15:45.

is a stealth inheritance tax. We have to face up to the fact that

:15:46.:15:49.

there are significant costs that we face as a country in terms of health

:15:50.:15:54.

and social careful. Traditionally, politicians don't address those

:15:55.:15:58.

issues, particularly during election campaigns. I think it is too Theresa

:15:59.:16:04.

May's credit that we are being straightforward with the British

:16:05.:16:07.

people and saying that we face this long-term challenge. Our manifesto

:16:08.:16:10.

was about the big challenges that we face, one of which was

:16:11.:16:14.

intergenerational fairness and one of which was delivering a strong

:16:15.:16:18.

economy and making sure that we can do that. But in the end, someone is

:16:19.:16:25.

going to have to pay for this. It is going to have to be a balance

:16:26.:16:28.

between the general taxpayer and those receiving the services. We

:16:29.:16:31.

think we have struck the right balance with this proposal. But it

:16:32.:16:35.

is entirely on the individual. People watching this programme, if

:16:36.:16:39.

they have a fair amount of assets, not massive, including the home,

:16:40.:16:46.

they will need to pay for everything themselves until their assets are

:16:47.:16:50.

reduced to ?100,000. It is not a balance, you're putting everything

:16:51.:16:55.

on the original two individual. At the moment, for those in residential

:16:56.:17:01.

care, they have to pay everything until 20 3000. -- everything on the

:17:02.:17:06.

individual. But now they will face more. Those in individual care are

:17:07.:17:10.

seeing their protection going up by four times as much, so that is

:17:11.:17:13.

eliminating unfairness. Why should those in residential care be in a

:17:14.:17:17.

worse position than those receiving domiciliary care? But as I say, that

:17:18.:17:23.

money has to come from somewhere and we are sitting at a proper plan for

:17:24.:17:26.

it. While also made the point that we are more likely to be able to

:17:27.:17:30.

have a properly functioning social care market if we have a strong

:17:31.:17:34.

economy, and to have a strong economy we need to deliver a good

:17:35.:17:37.

deal on Brexit and I think Theresa May is capable of doing that. You

:17:38.:17:42.

have said that before. But if you have a heart attack in old age, the

:17:43.:17:47.

NHS will take care of you. If you have dementia, you now have to pay

:17:48.:17:50.

for the care of yourself. Is that they are? It is already the case

:17:51.:17:55.

that if you have long-term care costs come up as I say, if you are

:17:56.:17:59.

in residential care you pay for all of it until the last ?23,000, but if

:18:00.:18:04.

you are in domiciliary care, excluding your housing assets, but

:18:05.:18:08.

all of your other assets get used up until you are down to ?23,000 a

:18:09.:18:14.

year. And I think it is right at this point that a party that aspires

:18:15.:18:21.

to run this country for the long-term, to address the long-term

:18:22.:18:25.

challenges we have is a country, for us to be clear that we need to

:18:26.:18:29.

deliver this. Because if it is not paid for it this way, if it goes and

:18:30.:18:36.

falls on the general taxpayer, the people who feel hard pressed by the

:18:37.:18:39.

amount of income tax and VAT they pay, frankly we have to say to them,

:18:40.:18:44.

those taxes will go up if we do not address it. But they might go up

:18:45.:18:48.

anyway. The average house price in your part of the country is just shy

:18:49.:18:54.

of ?430,000, so if you told your own constituents that they might have to

:18:55.:18:58.

spend ?300,000 of their assets on social care before the state steps

:18:59.:19:03.

in to help...? As I said earlier, nobody will be forced to pay during

:19:04.:19:08.

their lifetime. Nobody will be forced to sell their houses. We are

:19:09.:19:14.

providing that protection because of the third premium. Which makes it a

:19:15.:19:18.

kind of death tax, doesn't it? Which is what you use to rail against.

:19:19.:19:24.

What it is people paying for the services they have paid out of their

:19:25.:19:29.

assets. But with that very important protection that nobody is going to

:19:30.:19:32.

be wiped out in the way that has happened up until now, down to the

:19:33.:19:37.

last three years. But when Labour propose this, George Osborne called

:19:38.:19:41.

it a death tax and you are now proposing a stealth death tax

:19:42.:19:45.

inheritance tax. Labour's proposals were very different. It is the same

:19:46.:19:51.

effect. Labour's were hitting everyone with an inheritance tax. We

:19:52.:19:58.

are saying that there are -- that there is a state contribution but

:19:59.:20:01.

the public receiving the services will have to pay for it out of

:20:02.:20:07.

assets, which have grown substantially. And which they might

:20:08.:20:11.

now lose to social care. But I would say that people in Hertfordshire pay

:20:12.:20:15.

a lot in income tracks, national insurance and VAT, and this is my

:20:16.:20:20.

bet is going to have to come from somewhere. Well, they are now going

:20:21.:20:24.

to pay a lot of tax and pay for social care. Turning to immigration,

:20:25.:20:29.

you promised to get net migration down to 100,020 ten. You failed. You

:20:30.:20:34.

promised again in 2015 and you are feeling again. Why should voters

:20:35.:20:38.

trust you a third time? It is very clear that only the Conservative

:20:39.:20:43.

Party has an ambition to control immigration and to bring it down. An

:20:44.:20:48.

ambition you have failed to deliver. There are, of course, factors that

:20:49.:20:51.

come into play. For example a couple of years ago we were going through a

:20:52.:20:55.

period when the UK was creating huge numbers of jobs but none of our

:20:56.:20:59.

European neighbours were doing anything like it. Not surprisingly,

:21:00.:21:02.

that feeds through into the immigration numbers that we see. But

:21:03.:21:09.

it is right that we have that ambition because I do not believe it

:21:10.:21:15.

is sustainable to have hundreds of thousands net migration, you're

:21:16.:21:18.

after year after year, and only Theresa May of the Conservative

:21:19.:21:22.

Party is willing to address that. It has gone from being a target to an

:21:23.:21:26.

ambition, and I am pretty sure in a couple of years it will become an

:21:27.:21:30.

untimed aspiration. Is net migration now higher or lower than when you

:21:31.:21:36.

came to power in 2010? I think it is higher at the moment. Let's look at

:21:37.:21:41.

the figures. And there they are. You are right, it is higher, so after

:21:42.:21:46.

six years in power, promising to get it down to 100,000, it is higher. So

:21:47.:21:53.

if that is an ambition and you have not succeeded. We have to accept

:21:54.:21:57.

that there are a number of factors. It continues to be the case that the

:21:58.:22:02.

UK economy is growing and creating a lot of jobs, which is undoubtedly

:22:03.:22:06.

drawing people. But you made the promise on the basis that would not

:22:07.:22:09.

happen? We are certainly outperforming other countries in a

:22:10.:22:12.

way that we could not have predicted in 2010. That is one of the factors.

:22:13.:22:18.

But if you look at a lot of the steps that we have taken over the

:22:19.:22:20.

course of the last seven years, dealing with bogus students, for

:22:21.:22:26.

example, tightening up a lot of the rules. You can say all that but it

:22:27.:22:30.

has made no difference to the headline figure. Clearly it would

:22:31.:22:33.

have gone up by much more and we not taken the steps. But as I say, we

:22:34.:22:39.

cannot for ever, it seems to me, have net migration numbers in the

:22:40.:22:44.

hundreds of thousands. If we get that good Brexit deal, one of the

:22:45.:22:48.

things we can do is tighten up in terms of access here. You say that

:22:49.:22:53.

but you have always had control of non-EU migration. You cannot blame

:22:54.:22:57.

the EU for that. You control immigration from outside the EU.

:22:58.:23:00.

Have you ever managed to get even that below 100,000? Well, no doubt

:23:01.:23:07.

you will present the numbers now. You haven't. You have got down a bit

:23:08.:23:13.

from 2010, I will give you that, but even non-EU migration is still a lot

:23:14.:23:17.

more than 100000 and that is the thing you control. It is 164,000 on

:23:18.:23:22.

the latest figures. There is no point in saying to the voters that

:23:23.:23:25.

when we get control of the EU migration you will get it down when

:23:26.:23:28.

the bit you have control over, you have failed to get that down into

:23:29.:23:34.

the tens of thousands. The general trend has gone up. Non-EU migration

:23:35.:23:38.

we have brought down over the last few years. Not by much, not by

:23:39.:23:44.

anywhere near your 100,000 target. But we clearly have more tools

:23:45.:23:49.

available to us, following Brexit. At this rate it will be around 2030

:23:50.:23:54.

before you get non-EU migration down to 100,000. We clearly have more

:23:55.:23:57.

tools available to us and I return to the point I made. In the last six

:23:58.:24:01.

or seven years, particularly the last four or five, we have seen the

:24:02.:24:05.

UK jobs market growing substantially. It is extraordinary

:24:06.:24:10.

how many more jobs we have. So you'll only promised the migration

:24:11.:24:12.

target because you did not think you were going to run the economy well?

:24:13.:24:17.

That is what you are telling me. I don't think anyone expected us to

:24:18.:24:20.

create quite a number of jobs that we have done over the last six or

:24:21.:24:25.

seven years. At the time when other European countries have not been.

:24:26.:24:28.

George Osborne says your target is economically illiterate. I disagree

:24:29.:24:33.

with George on that. He is my old boss but I disagree with him on that

:24:34.:24:40.

point. And the reason I say that is looking at the economics and the

:24:41.:24:43.

wider social impact, I don't think it is sustainable for us to have

:24:44.:24:49.

hundreds of thousands, year after year after year. Let me ask you one

:24:50.:24:52.

other thing because you are the chief secretary. Your promising that

:24:53.:24:56.

spending on health will be ?8 billion higher in five use time than

:24:57.:25:01.

it is now. How do you pay for that? From a strong economy, two years ago

:25:02.:25:04.

we had a similar conversation because at that point we said that

:25:05.:25:10.

we would increase spending by ?8 billion. And we are more than on

:25:11.:25:14.

track to deliver it, because it is a priority area for us. Where will the

:25:15.:25:18.

money come from? It will be a priority area for us. We will find

:25:19.:25:23.

the money. So you have not been able to show us a revenue line where this

:25:24.:25:28.

?8 billion will come from. We have a record of making promises to spend

:25:29.:25:33.

more on the NHS and delivering. One thing I would say is that the only

:25:34.:25:37.

way you can spend more money on the NHS is if you have a strong economy,

:25:38.:25:42.

and the biggest risk... But that is true of anything. I am trying to

:25:43.:25:46.

find out where the ?8 billion come from, where will it come from? Know

:25:47.:25:50.

you were saying that perhaps you might increase taxes, ticking off

:25:51.:25:54.

the lock, so people are right to be suspicious. But you will not tell us

:25:55.:26:00.

where the ?8 billion will come from. Andrew, a strong economy is key to

:26:01.:26:05.

delivering more NHS money. That does not tell us where the money is

:26:06.:26:09.

coming from. The biggest risk to a strong economy would be a bad

:26:10.:26:12.

Brexit, which Jeremy Corbyn would deliver. And we have a record of

:26:13.:26:17.

putting more money into the NHS. I think that past performance we can

:26:18.:26:20.

take forward. Thank you for joining us.

:26:21.:26:22.

So, the Conservatives have been taking a bit of flak

:26:23.:26:25.

But Conservative big guns have been out and about this morning taking

:26:26.:26:29.

Here's Boris Johnson on ITV's Peston programme earlier today:

:26:30.:26:32.

What we're trying to do is to address what I think

:26:33.:26:36.

everybody, all serious demographers acknowledge will be the massive

:26:37.:26:39.

problem of the cost of social care long-term.

:26:40.:26:43.

This is a responsible, grown-up, conservative approach,

:26:44.:26:47.

trying to deal with a long-term problem in a way that is equitable,

:26:48.:26:50.

allows people to pass on a very substantial sum,

:26:51.:26:52.

still, to their kids, and takes away the fear

:26:53.:26:54.

Joining me now from Liverpool is Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary

:26:55.:27:01.

Petered out, welcome to the programme. Let's start with social

:27:02.:27:12.

care. The Tories are saying that if you have ?100,000 or more in assets,

:27:13.:27:16.

you should pay for your own social care. What is wrong with that? Well,

:27:17.:27:22.

I think the issue at the end of the day is the question of fairness. Is

:27:23.:27:26.

it fair? And what we're trying to do is to get to a situation where we

:27:27.:27:31.

have, for example, the Dilnot report, which identified that you

:27:32.:27:36.

actually have cap on your spending on social care. We are trying to get

:27:37.:27:39.

to a position where it is a reasonable and fair approach to

:27:40.:27:46.

expenditure. But you will know that a lot of people, particularly in the

:27:47.:27:50.

south of country, London and the south-east, and the adjacent areas

:27:51.:27:55.

around it, they have benefited from huge house price inflation. They

:27:56.:27:57.

have seen their homes go up in value, if and when they sell, they

:27:58.:28:02.

are not taxed on that increase. Why should these people not pay for

:28:03.:28:08.

their own social care if they have the assets to do so? They will be

:28:09.:28:12.

paying for some of their social care but you cannot take social care and

:28:13.:28:17.

health care separately. It has to be an integrated approach. So for

:28:18.:28:20.

example if you do have dementia, you're more likely to be in an

:28:21.:28:24.

elderly person's home for longer and you most probably have been in care

:28:25.:28:28.

for a longer period of time. On the other hand, you might have, if you

:28:29.:28:32.

have had a stroke, there may be continuing care needs paid for by

:28:33.:28:35.

the NHS. So at the end of the date it is trying to get a reasonable

:28:36.:28:39.

balance and just to pluck a figure of ?100,000 out of thin air is not

:28:40.:28:48.

sensible. You will have heard me say about David Gold that the house

:28:49.:28:53.

prices in his area, about 450,000 or so, not quite that, and that people

:28:54.:28:57.

may have to spend quite a lot of that on social care to get down to

:28:58.:29:03.

?100,000. But in your area, the average house price is only

:29:04.:29:07.

?149,000, so your people would not have to pay anything like as much

:29:08.:29:12.

before they hit the ?100,000 minimum. I hesitate to say that but

:29:13.:29:18.

is that not almost a socialist approach to social care that if you

:29:19.:29:21.

are in the affluent Home Counties with a big asset, you pay more, and

:29:22.:29:26.

if you are in an area that is not so affluent and your house is not worth

:29:27.:29:30.

very much, you pay a lot less. What is wrong with that principle? I

:29:31.:29:34.

think the problem I am trying to get to is this issue about equity across

:29:35.:29:39.

the piece. At the end of the day, what we want is a system whereby it

:29:40.:29:45.

is capped at a particular level, and the Dilnot report, after much

:29:46.:29:48.

examination, said we should have a cap on care costs at ?72,000. The

:29:49.:29:53.

Conservatives decided to ditch that and come up with another policy

:29:54.:29:56.

which by all accounts seems to be even more Draconian. At the end of

:29:57.:30:01.

the day it is trying to get social care and an NHS care in a much more

:30:02.:30:10.

fluid way. We had offered the Conservatives to have a bipartisan

:30:11.:30:13.

approach to this. David just said that this is a long term. You do not

:30:14.:30:17.

pick a figure out of thin air and use that as a long-term strategy.

:30:18.:30:23.

The Conservatives are now saying they will increase health spending

:30:24.:30:28.

over the next five years in real terms. You will increase health

:30:29.:30:33.

spending. In what way is your approach to health spending better

:30:34.:30:39.

than the Tories' now? We are contributing an extra 7.2 billion to

:30:40.:30:45.

the NHS and social care over the next few years. But you just don't

:30:46.:30:50.

put money into the NHS or social care. It has to be an integrated

:30:51.:30:55.

approach to social and health care. What we've got is just more of the

:30:56.:30:59.

same. What we don't want to do is just say, we ring-fenced an out for

:31:00.:31:05.

here or there. What you have to do is try to get that... Let me ask you

:31:06.:31:13.

again. In terms of the amount of resource that is going to be devoted

:31:14.:31:17.

in the next five years, and resource does matter for the NHS, in what way

:31:18.:31:23.

are your plans different now from the Conservative plans? The key is

:31:24.:31:27.

how you use that resource. By just putting money in, you've got to say,

:31:28.:31:33.

if we are going to put that money on, how do we use it? As somebody

:31:34.:31:39.

who has worked in social care for 40 years, you have to have a different

:31:40.:31:43.

approach to how you use that money. The money we are putting in, 7.7,

:31:44.:31:49.

may be similar in cash terms to what the Tories claim they are putting

:31:50.:31:53.

in, but it's not how much you put in per se, it is how you use it. You

:31:54.:32:07.

are going to get rid of car parking charges in hospital, and you are

:32:08.:32:10.

going to increase pay by taking the cap on pay off. So it doesn't

:32:11.:32:12.

necessarily follow that the money, under your way of doing it, will

:32:13.:32:15.

follow the front line. What you need in the NHS is a system that is

:32:16.:32:19.

capable of dealing with the patience you have. What we have now is on at

:32:20.:32:26.

five Asian of the NHS. Staff leaving, not being paid properly. So

:32:27.:32:36.

pay and the NHS go hand in hand. Let's move onto another area of

:32:37.:32:40.

policy where there is some confusion. Who speaks for the Labour

:32:41.:32:45.

Party on nuclear weapons? Is it Emily Thornbury, or Nia Griffith,

:32:46.:32:52.

defence spokesperson? The Labour manifesto. It is clear. We are

:32:53.:32:57.

committed to the nuclear deterrent, and that is the definitive... Is it?

:32:58.:33:07.

Emily Thornbury said that Trident could be scrapped in the defence

:33:08.:33:11.

review you would have immediately after taking power. On LBC on Friday

:33:12.:33:17.

night. She didn't, actually. I listened to that. What she actually

:33:18.:33:22.

said is, as part of a Labour government coming in, a new

:33:23.:33:27.

government, there is always a defence review. But not the concept

:33:28.:33:31.

of Trident in its substance. She said there would be a review in

:33:32.:33:38.

terms of, and this is in our manifesto. When you reduce

:33:39.:33:42.

something, you review how it is operated. The review could scrap

:33:43.:33:48.

Trident. It won't scrap Trident. The review is in the context of how you

:33:49.:33:53.

protect it from cyber attacks. This will issue was seized upon that she

:33:54.:33:59.

was saying that we would have another review of Trident or Labour

:34:00.:34:04.

would ditch it. That is nonsense. You will have seen some reports that

:34:05.:34:11.

MI5 opened a file on Jeremy Corbyn in the early 90s because of his

:34:12.:34:15.

links to Irish republicanism. This has caused some people, his links to

:34:16.:34:24.

the IRA and Sinn Fein, it has caused some concern. Could you just listen

:34:25.:34:30.

to this clip and react. Do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn

:34:31.:34:37.

all bombing. But do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn what was done

:34:38.:34:42.

with the British Army as well as both sides as well. What happened in

:34:43.:34:46.

Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well. Do you distinguish between

:34:47.:34:53.

state forces, what the British Army did and the IRA? Well, in a sense,

:34:54.:34:59.

the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political

:35:00.:35:05.

prisoners suggested that the British government and the state saw some

:35:06.:35:09.

kind of almost equivalent in it. My point is that the whole violence if

:35:10.:35:16.

you was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been

:35:17.:35:23.

allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time. That

:35:24.:35:28.

was from about two years ago. Can you explain why the Leader of the

:35:29.:35:32.

Labour Party, Her Majesty 's opposition, the man who would be our

:35:33.:35:36.

next Prime Minister, finds it so hard to condemn IRA arming? I think

:35:37.:35:43.

it has to be within the context that Jeremy Corbyn for many years trying

:35:44.:35:46.

to move the peace protest... Process along. So why wouldn't you condemn

:35:47.:35:56.

IRA bombing? Again, that was an issue, a traumatic event in Irish -

:35:57.:36:03.

British relations that went on for 30 years. It is a complicated

:36:04.:36:08.

matter. Bombing is not that complicated. If you are a man of

:36:09.:36:13.

peace, surely you would condemn the bomb and the bullet? Let me say

:36:14.:36:18.

this, I condemn the bomb and the bullet. Why can't your leader? You

:36:19.:36:24.

would have to ask Jeremy Corbyn, but that is in the context of what he

:36:25.:36:28.

was trying to do over a 25 year period to move the priest process

:36:29.:36:30.

along. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35,

:36:31.:36:33.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:36:34.:36:36.

in Scotland and Wales. Hello and welcome to the Sunday

:36:37.:36:45.

Politics here in the West. On the march: A noisy protest

:36:46.:36:49.

in Bristol yesterday complained But are the politicians keeping

:36:50.:36:58.

quiet about austerity? I'm joined by four candidates -

:36:59.:37:08.

They are the Conservative Richard Graham; Karin Smyth for Labour;

:37:09.:37:11.

Wera Hobhouse for the Lib Dems All the talk in the papers this

:37:12.:37:14.

morning is about the so-called weekend wobble, after the Tory

:37:15.:37:23.

manifesto which tackled social care The Conservatives are trying

:37:24.:37:27.

to limit the damage - the Work and Pensions Secretary said

:37:28.:37:31.

on Andrew Marr this morning that it is wrong for people

:37:32.:37:33.

like Mick Jagger to get it. Everyone who is in genuine

:37:34.:37:41.

need of the winter fuel But we think the money

:37:42.:37:44.

that is currently being spent on people who need it less,

:37:45.:37:48.

many of whom have come up and said to me over the years,

:37:49.:37:56.

"really, should I be getting this?" That money is better set in a social

:37:57.:37:59.

care system that we all agree is one of the great challenges

:38:00.:38:03.

facing our country. Richard Graham for the

:38:04.:38:10.

Conservatives, just when it was going so well for you, this

:38:11.:38:14.

manifesto doesn't seem to have gone down terribly well, particularly

:38:15.:38:18.

with the elderly? I think the manifesto has gone done extremely

:38:19.:38:21.

well with people whose major concerns are education and health. I

:38:22.:38:24.

think they're absolute commitment to making sure there was a huge, real

:38:25.:38:29.

terms increase in spending on the NHS and education is incredibly

:38:30.:38:31.

reassuring for many of my constituents. People are worried

:38:32.:38:37.

that dementia might not only take their minds but actually take their

:38:38.:38:43.

homes as well? I think it is incredibly insensitive

:38:44.:38:46.

scaremongering to talk about dementia tax, my mother had dementia

:38:47.:38:47.

and died of it, this is not a tax, and died of it, this is not a tax,

:38:48.:38:52.

this is about a fair contribution to the cost of care to all taxpayers

:38:53.:38:58.

and the families affected. We will increase by four times the amount of

:38:59.:39:01.

assets you can hand onto your family after your death. It could go down

:39:02.:39:07.

to the last ?100,000 was like if you have a house in this part of the

:39:08.:39:11.

world, worked hard all your life and a queue Nolito home, you could lose

:39:12.:39:15.

it. If you need 15 years of care, you could lose the lot. -- you could

:39:16.:39:24.

lose your home. It's the family that's going? It's the assets you

:39:25.:39:28.

are handing of us that you can hand on ?100,000. But yes, those with

:39:29.:39:32.

assets worth a lot of money will have to contribute more because that

:39:33.:39:36.

is about how we can afford a social care system that we don't have at

:39:37.:39:40.

Now, what we need to look at here is Now, what we need to look at here is

:39:41.:39:46.

ensuring that all the people who have contributed to society, who

:39:47.:39:49.

have families, are kept above the poverty line. The Green party policy

:39:50.:39:53.

is to ensure year-on-year that is what happened. If the cost of living

:39:54.:39:59.

increases, people and pensioners need to afford to live... The

:40:00.:40:05.

handing of you I'm down to your family, or should that wealthy a

:40:06.:40:10.

part of your estate for which you could pave your own care? What the

:40:11.:40:17.

Green party seeks to do is provide everyone who needs social care with

:40:18.:40:22.

social care. Free? Free at the point of use. That comes under the whole

:40:23.:40:27.

banner of health care. People should be able to access health care... You

:40:28.:40:31.

should make no contribution no should make no contribution no

:40:32.:40:39.

matter how wealthy? The wealth tax that the Green party refer to is

:40:40.:40:44.

something that is more in line with contributing and he austerity

:40:45.:40:49.

measures. The wealthiest will be paying... Green policy, do you get

:40:50.:40:58.

free social care or not? Yes, the Green policy is to provide social

:40:59.:41:05.

care when people need it. The Lib Dem approach to this issue is

:41:06.:41:09.

different. We are addressing head-on that we need to raise more money. So

:41:10.:41:14.

we are saying 1p in the pound from income tax, so everyone makes a

:41:15.:41:17.

contribution. That will go nowhere. We will raise ?6 billion a year. If

:41:18.:41:28.

we increase that by year, we can guarantee the health and social care

:41:29.:41:30.

bills will be paid for. And the whole approach is about solidarity.

:41:31.:41:37.

People pay according to their ability, but everyone makes a

:41:38.:41:40.

contribution and whether people are getting ill and needing long-term

:41:41.:41:43.

care or not, the burden will be shared. So you can put your house?

:41:44.:41:52.

City keep your house? We're not saying that people lose

:41:53.:41:59.

people who are higher earners and more... I'm not talking about cash,

:42:00.:42:06.

I'm talking about houses. We have not said anything -- we have not

:42:07.:42:13.

said anything about times, we will guarantee that everyone in will get

:42:14.:42:19.

their hopes health and social care paid for. We are now seeing this

:42:20.:42:24.

myth of strong and stable going away and think there was no compassion at

:42:25.:42:28.

the heart of this Conservative government. I have thought about

:42:29.:42:31.

this to four years. Last time they said there would be a cap on care.

:42:32.:42:35.

They get older people certainty and dignity at all the rage, got into

:42:36.:42:40.

power two months later they kicked it into the long glass to lay grass.

:42:41.:42:44.

Out of the blue this week, they landed this bomb shell on older

:42:45.:42:51.

people and their families. We need to contribute over time but it is a

:42:52.:42:54.

major discussion for all the generations you have. The deal not

:42:55.:43:01.

proposals, gave a degree of certainty, and we could think how we

:43:02.:43:03.

do involve people in the discussion do involve people in the discussion

:43:04.:43:06.

about the best method to raise the money. With all due respect,

:43:07.:43:09.

Richard, I'm afraid the resurrection of this as a death tax to say to

:43:10.:43:13.

people, whatever else you should get, you don't know what will happen

:43:14.:43:17.

to you. You'll have to suddenly alter your entire life plan. That

:43:18.:43:23.

loss of dignity and care, and people are talking on the doorstep,

:43:24.:43:26.

yesterday I went to a woman whose husband has a stroke inside her

:43:27.:43:31.

house. The real cruelty about this is about suddenly having to pay for

:43:32.:43:35.

your social care costs, keeping people at home out of hospital, a

:43:36.:43:42.

major issue for hospitals, social care is a bit of a term people don't

:43:43.:43:45.

understand. That is helping people get dressed in the morning, taking

:43:46.:43:50.

their medication. If they went to hospital they get it free? If they

:43:51.:43:53.

have to come home, then that would be totalled up and when you're dead

:43:54.:43:58.

you get the bill? We don't know the details because of the out of the

:43:59.:44:02.

blue. There will be some details. There are no details of four people

:44:03.:44:08.

vote. On a day which is the anniversary of the murder of Jo Cox

:44:09.:44:11.

with her strong belief that what brings us together is more important

:44:12.:44:14.

than what divides us, we should recognise that there was no

:44:15.:44:18.

government yet that has resolved the issue of social care. There's a plan

:44:19.:44:22.

on the table which you have kicked around for two years, done nothing

:44:23.:44:27.

about it, and you put out of the blue. Because you think you're

:44:28.:44:32.

walking this election. If I can briefly reply. The Dilnot commission

:44:33.:44:37.

proposal will have provided a cap on the amount any family had to pay.

:44:38.:44:41.

But would not have been right for a millionaire living and an enormous

:44:42.:44:45.

house with a huge amount of assets, let's take Philip Green for the sake

:44:46.:44:51.

of either. The total costs his family would pay... He's a long way

:44:52.:44:55.

from my constituency and yours. We have capped the floor so everyone

:44:56.:44:59.

knows they can hand over ?100,000 of assets, whatever the cost of their

:45:00.:45:05.

care. This has been a subject of Royal commissions for 20 years and I

:45:06.:45:08.

know the Conservative Party doesn't like to hear about experts, but the

:45:09.:45:12.

experts have gone through this and massive details, there is a plan on

:45:13.:45:14.

the deep in the Department of Health, that

:45:15.:45:20.

has been thrown City that is then thrown into the air. If you read the

:45:21.:45:27.

papers this morning it is full of the latest manifesto stories and the

:45:28.:45:32.

wedding of Pippa Middleton. Should the Middleton 's get a fuel

:45:33.:45:39.

allowance? They have spent tens of thousands on this wedding, the

:45:40.:45:45.

honeymoon is ?300,000. Do people like that, decently partial, but do

:45:46.:45:49.

they deemed a fuel allowance? The basis of our society, of this

:45:50.:45:54.

country, I'm astonished in this election, it's five years since we

:45:55.:45:57.

took my family to the Olympics to celebrate how great this country and

:45:58.:46:02.

our culture. We come together and pool are risks, we give according to

:46:03.:46:07.

our means... You need to spend money on rich people claiming fuel? The

:46:08.:46:11.

basis of our way of telling whether welfare Society is taxing people --

:46:12.:46:17.

bases of our welfare society is taxing people fairly. If the

:46:18.:46:23.

Middleton 's don't get it, they should be taxed fairly. There were

:46:24.:46:26.

long way from our constituents. Hang on. It's being part of the entire

:46:27.:46:35.

system. Absolutely. I keep stressing, we believe in solidarity.

:46:36.:46:39.

I don't want to start with the politics of envy, Saint bees before

:46:40.:46:42.

the habit of those shouldn't be allowed because they can afford a

:46:43.:46:48.

wonderful wedding. Mike Pepper. -- like Pippa Middleton. Is it fair

:46:49.:46:57.

that a quarter of us that will house dementia, why shouldn't we share

:46:58.:47:01.

that burden around? Is not just the tragedy of looking after somebody

:47:02.:47:04.

with a long-term condition but what happens to the families afterwards.

:47:05.:47:09.

One must quit word from Charley. Irrespective of fuel that respect of

:47:10.:47:13.

fuel tax, everyone should be able to heat their home, cook their food,

:47:14.:47:19.

but the people that don't need it don't have to take it, is the

:47:20.:47:25.

answer, surely. Means testing is greatly unfair.

:47:26.:47:27.

If one word has dominated politics over the past seven

:47:28.:47:34.

Tough government spending cuts designed to fix

:47:35.:47:37.

But it's hardly been mentioned during the current

:47:38.:47:40.

We sent Dickon Hooper to find out why.

:47:41.:47:42.

Yes, we're going to have to make difficult decisions, yes,

:47:43.:47:46.

we're going to have to make some difficult and painful cuts.

:47:47.:47:51.

One of the biggest economic crises of the post-war era.

:47:52.:48:03.

Let me make it clear, austerity is a political choice.

:48:04.:48:09.

It's also something not really being discussed in this election.

:48:10.:48:12.

But its effects are definitely being felt.

:48:13.:48:19.

You've got to learn to know what your limitations are.

:48:20.:48:23.

Rich has run this coffee stand in a Bristol park

:48:24.:48:29.

He's angry the park's historic swings were demolished,

:48:30.:48:36.

and won't be replaced because of the cuts.

:48:37.:48:40.

So the community is raising money itself.

:48:41.:48:43.

We've raised about ?4000 so far, so we're a third of the way

:48:44.:48:47.

The swings were cut because of austerity,

:48:48.:48:52.

but people have rallied around, is that sustainable?

:48:53.:48:55.

This is the first time we've had to go to the community

:48:56.:48:58.

and ask them to help pay for a piece of equipment.

:48:59.:49:01.

If we were doing that every year, every six months, people

:49:02.:49:04.

A small example of austerity perhaps, but it's important

:49:05.:49:10.

Is it important to voters in the general election though?

:49:11.:49:17.

What's the most important issue in this election for you?

:49:18.:49:19.

I'm a teacher and I have two children, one of which is

:49:20.:49:30.

about to start school and the cuts are massive.

:49:31.:49:32.

What about the swings here, do you miss them?

:49:33.:49:36.

They are a sign of austerity aren't they?

:49:37.:49:49.

We are seeing school trips cancelled...

:49:50.:49:55.

This protest attracted maybe a thousand people

:49:56.:49:58.

A noisy end to a week in which the main parties

:49:59.:50:05.

And for those pouring over the small print,

:50:06.:50:11.

austerity should still be a talking point.

:50:12.:50:20.

Austerity and cuts ought to be a big issue, because certainly

:50:21.:50:22.

the Conservatives are still planning some pretty big cuts going forward

:50:23.:50:25.

to most areas of public spending and really tough on public sector

:50:26.:50:28.

pay, relative, particularly, to what the Labour Party are suggesting.

:50:29.:50:32.

So there are differences between the parties.

:50:33.:50:34.

There's a lot of austerity still to come, we think,

:50:35.:50:37.

Their manifesto is not very explicit.

:50:38.:50:41.

And quite big spending increases if we get a Labour

:50:42.:50:44.

government, so some big differences between them.

:50:45.:50:50.

So voters perhaps should wake up and smell the coffee.

:50:51.:50:52.

Austerity is still with us, And the parties have very different

:50:53.:50:56.

Cameron Smith from Labour, four more bank holidays if Labour getting, and

:50:57.:51:14.

NT public sector pay restraint, money to spend on nationalisation,

:51:15.:51:18.

where is the cash coming from? As you know, and has been debated this

:51:19.:51:23.

morning, our manifesto is costed fully and like the Conservative. But

:51:24.:51:26.

I disagree with your film, the only thing people are talking about is

:51:27.:51:31.

the cuts. Particularly around education, the school gates at my

:51:32.:51:34.

constituency every school is losing out, parents know that. There was a

:51:35.:51:39.

big march in Bristol yesterday. And the health service. That is all the

:51:40.:51:43.

people are talking about now. Spending actually going up? The

:51:44.:51:48.

Prime Minister called this election because she wanted to look strong

:51:49.:51:50.

and stable, and people love the boat is because they are talking fixing

:51:51.:51:55.

Mac with the voters because they talk about things that matter to

:51:56.:51:59.

them, there Talanoa the when you say about the cuts, do you

:52:00.:52:09.

say, don't worry about those under a Labour government, there won't be

:52:10.:52:12.

any quiver that I listen to what people are saying. I say clearly,

:52:13.:52:17.

vote for a strong voice locally from the Labour Party. We will stand up

:52:18.:52:22.

for you on those things. I have been talking about more services in South

:52:23.:52:28.

Bristol hospital, GP services, a GP service close to my constituency.

:52:29.:52:32.

People in my constituency and self but are well aware... We are talking

:52:33.:52:35.

that individual things. Putter are not talk about individual thing. I

:52:36.:52:42.

do you not tell people to vote for Corbyn? I tell people to vote for

:52:43.:52:48.

the Labour Party. Do you think Auburn will be ago by Minister? I

:52:49.:52:54.

want to Labour by Minister. But we know she will court called the

:52:55.:53:00.

selection... Can you say that Jeremy Corbyn will be ago by Minister? Of

:53:01.:53:04.

course I can say Jeremy Corbyn. He'll be better than the a

:53:05.:53:10.

Conservative government. To nationalise the water companies

:53:11.:53:14.

alone would use ?70 billion of money. Try and listen occasionally

:53:15.:53:18.

to someone else, just as we listen to you. The idea that we can promise

:53:19.:53:24.

everything on public spending, nationalisation, and all the rest of

:53:25.:53:28.

it, is, I'm afraid, simply not credible. The truth of the word

:53:29.:53:34.

austerity is that it really means living within your means and when

:53:35.:53:41.

they get. We had ?150 billion of deficit every year, we got it down

:53:42.:53:43.

to just under 50 billion, and we've to just under 50 billion, and we've

:53:44.:53:47.

got a way to go. What we have done is stretched this out over a longer

:53:48.:53:52.

period of time, so there isn't too much pain specifically in health and

:53:53.:53:55.

education which are crucial sectors. But we have got to keep finding ways

:53:56.:54:00.

of living within our means. Why wasn't your manifesto costed? There

:54:01.:54:07.

are things on the winter fuel allowance, it's right that we

:54:08.:54:10.

shouldn't be giving it to the richest people... And what level?

:54:11.:54:16.

You had people calling over the Labour manifesto trying to find

:54:17.:54:21.

bombs, and you haven't done your own? That's because we haven't made

:54:22.:54:25.

the same reckless spending commitments that the Labour have,

:54:26.:54:28.

we're not renationalisation costs a fortune, and we aren't making

:54:29.:54:31.

promises that we can't deliver. You not worried about the damage done to

:54:32.:54:35.

the fabric of our society by continual reductions in spending in

:54:36.:54:38.

real terms was not worried about the damage done to the fabric of our

:54:39.:54:41.

society by continual reductions in spending in real terms? Particularly

:54:42.:54:43.

schools? Now. Because we made this commitment that we have 4 billion

:54:44.:54:49.

extra over what inflation will likely amount to over the next five

:54:50.:54:53.

years. We put a huge amount of money into expenditure programme for

:54:54.:54:56.

schools to expand to more pupils, and I have seen in my own

:54:57.:55:00.

constituency that the number of schools which are delivering either

:55:01.:55:02.

good or outstanding Ofsted results and getting chills and the results

:55:03.:55:06.

they want is increasing all the time. Let's bring in Wera. The Lib

:55:07.:55:12.

Dems in their manifesto claimed they will eliminate the deficit in three

:55:13.:55:13.

years. That is harsher than anybody years. That is harsher than anybody

:55:14.:55:20.

else in this room? It was definitely important to cut the deficit

:55:21.:55:23.

originally. After the financial crisis, I want to finish my point.

:55:24.:55:32.

What the cuts are being done now just cool and they are damaging

:55:33.:55:33.

long-term Young people are future and we need

:55:34.:55:47.

to put money into them. Two of three head teachers say they have two lay

:55:48.:55:52.

off members of staff. I have been a headteacher in the school, that is

:55:53.:55:56.

damaging. We know the problem. Have pledged to pay off the deficit in

:55:57.:55:59.

three years, that would mean you would have to make a large cuts.

:56:00.:56:07.

Our manifesto is costed. It is important that we make sure that the

:56:08.:56:13.

money, particularly the pupil premium is there for disadvantaged

:56:14.:56:17.

young people to make progress in school. These are the areas we are

:56:18.:56:23.

focusing on. This is what we need to do because of current cuts. I'm not

:56:24.:56:27.

quite clear whether spending savings are coming from in your case. We are

:56:28.:56:35.

not going ahead with County corporation tax and our manifesto is

:56:36.:56:39.

also fully costed. I think it's interesting that Richard mentions

:56:40.:56:42.

the true meaning of austerity because we all know austerity is a

:56:43.:56:47.

choice that his government made to effectively pack tax the poor rather

:56:48.:56:50.

than the rich. There was essentially a choice. You could increment

:56:51.:56:57.

transactions tax, maybe 0.05% of transactions with brings billions

:56:58.:57:00.

but instead, they are choosing to take swings away from local parks or

:57:01.:57:05.

take teachers away from school. Taking nurses to food banks. That is

:57:06.:57:09.

choice that has been made by the choice that has been made by the

:57:10.:57:15.

Tory government. How would you the Green party create wealth cover for

:57:16.:57:17.

your good at spending money, and that's not much that I have seen...

:57:18.:57:24.

You would not write of student debt? We wouldn't write off student that

:57:25.:57:29.

because... But ?14 billion. Its ?14 billion of its all paid. But a small

:57:30.:57:34.

amount is actually paid anyway. Why should we tax our young people going

:57:35.:57:38.

into the future quiz of the weight of the money come from? How would

:57:39.:57:41.

you create wealth. How do you grow the pie? Can you go pie? I think

:57:42.:57:47.

that is the expression that the business users. Wealth can come from

:57:48.:57:52.

many different sources, one of them being actively enforcing corporation

:57:53.:57:58.

tax. How would you grow it? That is growing at. What the current

:57:59.:58:03.

government has done in austerity is taking away from the poor, and the

:58:04.:58:07.

most vulnerable. Let's start taking some money away from the top 1%, the

:58:08.:58:14.

top 1% of earners. The top 1% of earners earn money each year, taxing

:58:15.:58:17.

than just a little bit more, this is just the top 1%. Can you give me one

:58:18.:58:22.

way of how the Greens would grow the economy? Just one? The renewable

:58:23.:58:29.

sector. A huge sector that we have in this country and could grow.

:58:30.:58:34.

Doing what? The Tory argument on Hinckley is that it's going to make

:58:35.:58:41.

jobs and money, how is that not growing the economy to invest in

:58:42.:58:47.

young people. That's taking money, what industries would you grow? The

:58:48.:58:50.

renewable sector is an industry, David. It's an industry where people

:58:51.:58:55.

have jobs where you are providing for the communities and that is a

:58:56.:58:59.

whole sector and the whole industry that would generate billions. Karin,

:59:00.:59:03.

a quick word. The investment in our young people in the future is a

:59:04.:59:07.

different view of society than the one we're now getting from the

:59:08.:59:10.

Conservative government. They are worried about the future and Brexit,

:59:11.:59:15.

there is a deal of uncertainty. That uncertainty is the greatest thing I

:59:16.:59:17.

faced talking to people everyday. There was nothing provided by the

:59:18.:59:20.

Conservative government to sure that up. Very last. Why uncertainty? You

:59:21.:59:29.

need a strong government with the leadership going to be to take us

:59:30.:59:32.

through this rather than having parties which are fighting like rats

:59:33.:59:35.

with each other. That's all we got time for this week I'm afraid.

:59:36.:59:39.

cancelled. And rent to own is still our policy. Thank you very much, Tom

:59:40.:59:41.

Brake. Andrew, back to you. So, two and half weeks

:59:42.:59:47.

to go till polling day, let's take stock of the campaign

:59:48.:59:50.

so far and look ahead Sam, Isabel and Steve

:59:51.:59:52.

are with me again. Sam, Mrs May had made a great thing

:59:53.:00:06.

about the just about managing. Not the poorest of the poor, but not

:00:07.:00:11.

really affluent people, who are maybe OK but it's a bit of a

:00:12.:00:17.

struggle. What is in the manifesto for them? There is something about

:00:18.:00:21.

the high profile items in the manifesto. She said she wants to

:00:22.:00:25.

help those just above the poorest level. But if you look at things

:00:26.:00:30.

like the winter fuel allowance, which is going to be given only to

:00:31.:00:35.

the poorest. If you look at free school meals for infants, those for

:00:36.:00:40.

the poorest are going to be kept, but the rest will go. The social

:00:41.:00:45.

care plan, those who are renting or in properties worth up to ?90,000,

:00:46.:00:51.

they are going to be treated, but those in properties worth above

:00:52.:00:58.

that, 250,000, for example, will have to pay. Which leads to the

:00:59.:01:03.

question - what is being done for the just about managings? There is

:01:04.:01:08.

something, the personal allowance that David Cameron promised in 2015,

:01:09.:01:13.

that they are not making a big deal of that, because they cannot say by

:01:14.:01:19.

how much. So you are looking in tax rises on the just about managings.

:01:20.:01:26.

Where will the tax rises come from. We do not know, that there is the 40

:01:27.:01:35.

million pounds gap for the Tories to reach what they are pledging in

:01:36.:01:39.

their manifesto. We do not know how that is going to be made up, more

:01:40.:01:45.

tax, or more borrowing? So that is why the questions of the

:01:46.:01:48.

implications of removing the tax lock are so potentially difficult

:01:49.:01:53.

for Tory MPs. The Labour manifesto gives figures for the cost of

:01:54.:01:57.

certain policies and where the revenue will come from. You can

:01:58.:02:00.

argue about the figures, but at least we have the figures. The Tory

:02:01.:02:06.

manifesto is opaque on these matters. That applies to both the

:02:07.:02:10.

manifestos. Looking at the Labour manifesto on the way here this

:02:11.:02:14.

morning, when you look at the section on care for the elderly,

:02:15.:02:18.

they simply say, there are various ways in which the money for this can

:02:19.:02:23.

be raised. They are specific on other things. They are, and we heard

:02:24.:02:29.

John McDonnell this morning being very on that, and saying there is

:02:30.:02:36.

not a single ? in Tory manifesto. I have only got to page 66. It is

:02:37.:02:43.

quite broad brush and they are very open to challenge. For example, on

:02:44.:02:48.

the detail of a number of their flagship things. There is no detail

:02:49.:02:53.

on their immigration policy. They reiterate the ambition, but not how

:02:54.:02:58.

they are going to do that, without a massive increase in resource for

:02:59.:03:05.

Borders officials. We are at a time where average wages are lagging

:03:06.:03:10.

behind prices. And in work benefits remain frozen. I would have thought

:03:11.:03:15.

that the just-about-managings are people who are in work but they need

:03:16.:03:20.

some in work benefits to make life tolerable and be able to pay bills.

:03:21.:03:26.

Doesn't she has to do more for them? Maybe, but this whole manifesto was

:03:27.:03:34.

her inner circle saying, right, this is our chance to express our... It

:03:35.:03:40.

partly reads like a sort of philosophical essay at times. About

:03:41.:03:45.

the challenges, individualism against collectivism. Some of it

:03:46.:03:49.

reads quite well and is quite interesting, but in terms of its

:03:50.:03:55.

detail, Labour would never get away with it. They wouldn't be allowed to

:03:56.:04:00.

be so vague about where taxes are going to rise. We know there are

:04:01.:04:04.

going to be tax rises after the election, but we don't know where

:04:05.:04:09.

they will be. 100%, there will be tax rises. We know that they wanted

:04:10.:04:16.

a tax rise in the last budget, but they couldn't get it through because

:04:17.:04:22.

of the 2015 manifesto. Labour do offer a lot more detail. People

:04:23.:04:27.

could disagree with it, but there is a lot more detail. More to get your

:04:28.:04:33.

teeth into. About capital gains tax and the rises for better owners and

:04:34.:04:39.

so on. The SNP manifesto comes out this week, and the Greens and Sinn

:04:40.:04:45.

Fein. We think Ukip as well. There are more manifestos to come. The Lib

:04:46.:04:48.

Dems have already brought theirs out. Isn't the Liberal Democrat

:04:49.:04:55.

campaign in trouble? It doesn't seem to be doing particular the well in

:04:56.:05:02.

the polls, or at the local elections a few weeks ago. The Liberal

:05:03.:05:04.

Democrats are trying to fish in quite a small pool for votes. They

:05:05.:05:10.

are looking to get votes from those remainers who want to reverse the

:05:11.:05:15.

result, in effect. Tim Farron is promising a second referendum on the

:05:16.:05:20.

deal at the end of the negotiation process. And that is a hard sell. So

:05:21.:05:28.

those voting for remain on June 23 are not low hanging fruit by any

:05:29.:05:34.

means? Polls suggesting that half of those want to reverse the result, so

:05:35.:05:39.

that is a feeling of about 20% on the Lib Dems, and they are getting

:05:40.:05:43.

slightly less than half at the moment, but there are not a huge

:05:44.:05:48.

amount of votes for them to get on that strategy. It doesn't feel like

:05:49.:05:56.

Tim Farron and the Lib Dems have promised enough. They are making a

:05:57.:06:02.

very serious case on cannabis use in a nightclub, but the optics of what

:06:03.:06:05.

they are discussing doesn't make them look like an anchor in a future

:06:06.:06:09.

coalition government that they would need to be. I wonder if we are

:06:10.:06:14.

seeing the re-emergence of the 2-party system? And it is not the

:06:15.:06:18.

same two parties. In Scotland, the dynamics of this election seemed to

:06:19.:06:22.

be the Nationalists against the Conservatives. In England, if you

:06:23.:06:24.

look at what has happened to be Ukip vote, and what Sam was saying about

:06:25.:06:42.

the Lib Dems are struggling a bit to get some traction, it is

:06:43.:06:43.

overwhelmingly Labour and the Conservatives. A different 2-party

:06:44.:06:46.

system from Scotland, but a 2-party system. There are a number of

:06:47.:06:48.

different election is going on in parallel. In Scotland it is about

:06:49.:06:53.

whether you are unionist or not. Here, we have the collapse of the

:06:54.:06:57.

Ukip vote, which looks as though it is being redistributed in the

:06:58.:07:04.

Tories' favour. This is a unique election, and will not necessarily

:07:05.:07:09.

set the trend for elections to come. In the Tory manifesto, I spotted the

:07:10.:07:12.

fact that the fixed term Parliament act is going to be scrapped. That

:07:13.:07:21.

got almost no coverage! It turned out to be academic anyway, that it

:07:22.:07:25.

tells you something about how Theresa May is feeling, and she

:07:26.:07:29.

wants the control to call an election whenever it suits her.

:07:30.:07:34.

Re-emergence of the 2-party system, for this election or beyond? For

:07:35.:07:43.

this election, yes, but it shows the sort of robust strength of parties

:07:44.:07:47.

and their fragility. In other words, the Lib Dems haven't really

:07:48.:07:52.

recovered from the losses in the last general election, and are

:07:53.:07:57.

therefore not really seen as a robust vehicle to deliver Remain. If

:07:58.:08:00.

they were, they might be doing better. The Labour Party hasn't

:08:01.:08:06.

recovered in Scotland, and yet, if you look at the basic divide in

:08:07.:08:10.

England and Scotland and you see two parties battling it out, it is very,

:08:11.:08:15.

very hard for the smaller parties to break through and last. Many appear

:08:16.:08:20.

briefly on the political stage and then disappear again. The election

:08:21.:08:26.

had the ostensible goal of Brexit, but we haven't heard much about it

:08:27.:08:31.

in the campaign. Perhaps the Tories want to get back onto that. David

:08:32.:08:38.

Davis sounding quite tough this morning, the Brexit minister, saying

:08:39.:08:42.

there is no chance we will talk about 100 billion. And we have to

:08:43.:08:46.

have power in the negotiations on the free trade deal or what ever it

:08:47.:08:51.

is. I think they are keen to get the subject of the manifesto at this

:08:52.:08:55.

point, because it has not started too well. There is an irony that

:08:56.:09:00.

Theresa May ostensibly called the election because she needed a

:09:01.:09:05.

stronger hand in the Brexit negotiations, and there was an

:09:06.:09:08.

opportunity for the Lib Dems, with their unique offer of being the

:09:09.:09:11.

party that is absolutely against the outcome of the referendum, and

:09:12.:09:17.

offering another chance. There hasn't been much airtime on that

:09:18.:09:22.

particular pledge, because instead, this election has segued into being

:09:23.:09:28.

all about leadership. Theresa May's leadership, and looking again at the

:09:29.:09:33.

Tory manifesto, I was struck that she was saying that this is my plan

:09:34.:09:40.

for the future, not ABBA plan. Even when talking about social care, he

:09:41.:09:46.

manages to work in a bit about Theresa May and Brexit. And Boris

:09:47.:09:50.

Johnson this morning, an interview he gave on another political

:09:51.:09:55.

programme this morning, it was extraordinarily sycophantic for him.

:09:56.:09:59.

Isn't Theresa May wonderful. There is a man trying to secure his job in

:10:00.:10:06.

the Foreign Office! Will he succeed? I think she will leave him. Better

:10:07.:10:12.

in the tent than out. What did you make of David Davis' remarks? He was

:10:13.:10:18.

basically saying, we will walk away from the negotiating table if the

:10:19.:10:24.

Europeans slam a bill for 100 billion euros. The point is that the

:10:25.:10:32.

Europeans will not slam a bill for 100 billion euros on the negotiating

:10:33.:10:36.

table. That is the gross figure. There are all sorts of things that

:10:37.:10:41.

need to be taken into account. I imagine they will ask for something

:10:42.:10:46.

around the 50 or ?60 billion mark. It looks that they are trying to

:10:47.:10:54.

make it look like a concession when they do make their demands in order

:10:55.:10:56.

to soften the ground for what is going to happen just two weeks after

:10:57.:11:02.

general election day. He makes a reasonable point about having

:11:03.:11:06.

parallel talks. What they want to do straightaway is deal with the bill,

:11:07.:11:09.

Northern Ireland and citizens rights. All of those things are very

:11:10.:11:14.

complicated and interlinked issues, which cannot be dealt with in

:11:15.:11:18.

isolation. I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with parallel talks,

:11:19.:11:23.

just to work out where we are going with Northern Ireland and the

:11:24.:11:29.

border. Steve, you can't work out what the Northern Ireland border

:11:30.:11:33.

will be, and EU citizens' writes here, until you work out what our

:11:34.:11:38.

relationship with the EU in the future will be. Indeed. The British

:11:39.:11:43.

government is under pressure to deal quickly with the border issue in

:11:44.:11:48.

Ireland, but feel they can't do so because when you have a tariff free

:11:49.:11:52.

arrangement outcome, or an arrangement that is much more

:11:53.:11:55.

protectionist, and that will determine partly the nature of the

:11:56.:12:00.

border. You cannot have a quick agreement on that front without

:12:01.:12:03.

knowing the rest of the deal. I think the negotiation will be

:12:04.:12:07.

complex. I am certain they want a deal rather than none, because this

:12:08.:12:12.

is no deal thing is part of the negotiation at this early stage.

:12:13.:12:18.

Sounding tough in the general election campaign also works

:12:19.:12:21.

electorally. But after the election, it will be a tough negotiation,

:12:22.:12:29.

beginning with this cost of Brexit. My understanding is that the

:12:30.:12:32.

government feels it's got to make the Europeans think they will not do

:12:33.:12:37.

a deal in order to get a deal. They don't want no deal. Absolutely not.

:12:38.:12:42.

And I'm sure it plays into the election. I'm sure the rhetoric will

:12:43.:12:45.

change when the election is over. That's all for today,

:12:46.:12:50.

thank you to all my guests. The Daily Politics will be

:12:51.:12:52.

back on BBC Two at 12.00 And tomorrow evening I will be

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starting my series of interviews with the party leaders -

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first up is the Prime Minister, Theresa May,

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that's at 7pm on BBC One. And I'll be back here at the same

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time on BBC One next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,

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it's the Sunday Politics. We've made great strides

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tackling HIV. Imagine if we could

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create a movement Hello, there!

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I bet you weren't expecting me. Well, I'm thrilled to tell you

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that today but no battle like the battle

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we're going to see today

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Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

Andrew is joined by chief secretary to the Treasury David Gauke and shadow Treasury minister Peter Dowd. Journalists Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards and Sam Coates on the political panel comment on the week's events and there is a film looking at how the Labour and Conservative manifestos differ.


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