29/10/2017 Sunday Politics West

Morning, everyone.

I'm Sarah Smith, and welcome

to The Sunday Politics,

where we always bring you everything

you need to know to understand

what's going on in politics.

Coming up on today's programme...

The Government says

the international trade minister

Mark Garnier will be investigated

following newspaper allegations

of inappropriate behaviour

towards a female staff member.

We'll have the latest.

The Prime Minister says she can

agree a deal with the EU and plenty

of time for Parliament to vote on it

before we leave in 2018. Well

Parliament play ball? New evidence

cast out on the

In

cast out on the

In the

cast out on the

In the West,

cast out on the

In the West, the

cast out on the

In the West, the University

cast out on the

In the West, the University

challenge to. There are more cause

for the head of Bath University

on from the abortion act white MPs

are lobbying the Home Secretary to

stop the alleged harassment of women

attending abortion clinics.

All that coming up in the programme.

And with me today to help make sense

of all the big stories,

Julia Hartley-Brewer,

Steve Richards and Anne McElvoy.

Some breaking news this morning.

The Government has announced

that it will investigate

whether the International Trade

Minister Mark Garnier broke

the Ministerial Code

following allegations

of inappropriate behaviour.

It comes after reports in the Mail

on Sunday which has spoken to one

of Mr Garnier's former employees.

News of the investigation

was announced by the Health

Secretary Jeremy Hunt

on the Andrew Marr show earlier.

The stories, if they are true,

are totally unacceptable

and the Cabinet Office will be

conducting an investigation

as to whether there has been

a breach of the ministerial code

in this particular case.

But as you know the

facts are disputed.

This is something that covers

behaviour by MPs of all parties

and that is why the other thing

that is going to happen

is that today Theresa May

is going to write to John Bercow,

the Speaker of the House of Commons,

to ask for his advice as to how

we change that culture.

That was Jeremy Hunt a little

earlier. I want to turn to the panel

to make sense of this news. This is

the government taking these

allegations quite seriously.

What

has changed in this story is they

used to be a bit of delay while

people work out what they should say

about it, how seriously to take it.

As you see now a senior cabinet

member out there, Jeremy Hunt, with

an instant response. He does have

the worry of whether the facts are

disputed, but what they want to be

seen doing is to do something very

quickly. In the past they would say

it was all part of the rough and

tumble of Westminster.

Mark Garnier

does not deny these stories, which

is that he asked an employee to buy

sex toys, but he said it was just

high jinks and it was taken out of

context. Is this the sort of thing

that a few years ago in a different

environment would be investigated?

Not necessarily quite the frenzy

that it is nowadays. The combination

of social media, all the Sunday

political programmes were ministers

have to go on armed with a response

means that you get these we have to

be seen to be doing something. That

means there is this Cabinet Office

investigation. You pointed out to us

before the programme that he was not

a minister before this happened. It

does not matter whether he says yes,

know I did this or did not,

something has to be seen to be done.

Clearly ministers today are being

armed with that bit of information

and that Theresa May will ask John

Bercow the speaker to look into the

whole culture of Parliament in this

context. That is the response to

this kind of frenzy.

If we do live

in an environment where something

has to be seen to be done, does that

always mean the right thing gets

done?

Absolutely not. We are in

witch hunt territory. All of us work

in the Commons over many years and

anyone would think it was a scene

out of Benny Hill or a carry on

film. Sadly it is not that much fun

and it is rather dull and dreary.

Yes, there are sex pests, yes, there

is sexual harassment, but the idea

this is going on on a huge scale is

nonsense.

Doesn't matter whether it

is a huge scale or not? Or just a

few instances?

Any workplace where

you have the mixing of work and

social so intertwined and you throw

a huge amount of alcohol and late

night and people living away from

home you will have this happen.

That

does not make it OK.

It makes sexual

harassment not OK as it is not

anywhere. This happens to men as

well and if they have an issue into

it there are employment tribunal 's

and they can contact lawyers. I do

not think this should be a matter of

the speaker, it should be someone

completely independent of any party.

People think MPs are employees of

the party or the Commons, they are

not.

Because they are self-employed

to whom do you go if you are a

researcher?

That has to be

clarified. I agree you need a much

clearer line of reporting. It was a

bit like the situation when we came

into the media many years ago, the

Punic wars in my case! You were not

quite sure who to go to. If you work

worried that it might impede your

career, and you had to talk to

people who work next to you, that is

just one example, but in the Commons

people do not know who they should

go to. Where Theresa May might be

making a mistake, it is the same

mistake when it was decided to

investigate through Levinson the

culture of the media which was like

nailing jelly to a wall. Look at the

culture of anybody's job and the

environment they are in and there is

usually a lot wrong with it. When

you try and make it general, they

are not trying to blame individuals,

or it say they need a better line on

reporting of sexual harassment,

which I support, the Commons is a

funny place and it is a rough old

trade and you are never going to

iron out the human foibles of that.

Diane Abbott was talking about this

earlier.

When I first went into Parliament so

many of those men had been to all

boys boarding schools and had really

difficult attitudes towards women.

The world has moved on and

middle-aged women are less likely

than middle-aged men to believe that

young research are irresistibly

attracted to them. We have seen the

issues and we have seen one of our

colleagues been suspended for quite

unacceptable language.

That is a point, Jarrod O'Mara, a

Labour MP who has had the whip

suspended, this goes across all

parties.

The idea that there is a

left or right divide over this is

absurd. This is a cultural issue. In

the media and in a lot of other

institutions if this is going to

develop politically, the frenzy will

carry on for a bit and other names

will come out over the next few

days, not just the two we have

mentioned so far in politics. But it

also raises questions about how

candidates are selected for example.

There has been a huge pressure for

the centre to keep out of things. I

bet from now on there will be much

greater scrutiny of all candidates

and tweets will have to be looked at

and all the rest of it.

Selecting

candidates is interesting. Miriam

Gonzalez, Nick Clegg's wife, says

that during that election they knew

about Jarrod O'Mara and the Lib Dems

knew about it, so it is difficult to

suggest the Labour Party did not as

well.

There is very clear evidence

the Labour Party did know. But we

are in a situation of how perfect

and well-behaved does everyone have

to be? If you look at past American

presidents, JFK and Bill Clinton,

these men were sex pest

extraordinaire, with totally

inappropriate behaviour on a regular

basis. There are things you are not

allowed to say if you are feminists.

Young women are really attracted to

powerful men. I was busted for the

idea that there are young women in

the House of commons who are

throwing themselves at middle-aged,

potbellied, balding, older men. We

need to focus on the right things.

When it is unwanted, harassing,

inappropriate and criminal,

absolutely, you come down like a

tonne of bricks. It is not just

because there are more women in the

Commons, it is because there are

more men married to women like us.

We have to leave it there.

As attention turns in

Westminster to the hundreds

of amendments put down on the EU

Withdrawal Bill, David Davis has

caused a stir this week by saying

it's possible Parliament won't get

a vote on the Brexit deal

until after March 2019 -

when the clock runs out

and we leave the EU.

Let's take a look at how

the controversy played out.

And which point do you envisage

Parliament having a vote?

As soon as possible thereafter.

This Parliament?

As soon as possible

possible thereafter, yeah.

As soon as possible thereafter.

So, the vote in Parliament...

The other thing...

Could be after March 2019?

It could be, yeah, it could be.

The...

It depends when it concludes.

Mr Barnier, remember,

has said he'd like...

Sorry, the vote of our Parliament,

the UK Parliament, could be

after March 2019?

Yes, it could be.

Could be.

The thing to member...

Which would be...

Well, it can't come

before we have the deal.

You said that it is POSSIBLE that

Parliament night not vote

on the deal until AFTER

the end of March 2019.

I'm summarising correctly

what you said...?

Yeah, that's correct.

In the event we don't do

the deal until then, yeah.

Can the Prime Minister please

explain how it's possible

to have a meaningful vote

on something that's

already taken place?

As the honourable gentleman knows,

we're in negotiations

with the European Union, but I am

confident that the timetable under

the Lisbon Treaty does give time

until March 2019

for the negotiations to take place.

But I'm confident, because it is in

the interests of both sides,

it's not just this Parliament that

wants to have a vote on that deal,

but actually there will be

ratification by other parliaments,

that we will be able to achieve that

agreement and that negotiation

in time for this Parliament

to have a vote that we committed to.

We are working to reach

an agreement on the final deal

in good time before we leave

the European Union in March 2019.

Clearly, we cannot say

for certain at this stage

when this will be agreed.

But as Michel Barnier said,

he hopes to get a draft deal

agreed by October 2018,

and that's our aim is well.

agreed by October 2018,

and that's our aim as well.

I'm joined now by the former

Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary

Benn, who is the chair

of the Commons Brexit Committee,

which David Davis was

giving evidence to.

Good morning.

When you think a

parliamentary vote should take place

in order for it to be meaningful?

It

has to be before we leave the

European Union. Michel Barnier said

at the start of the negotiations

that he wants to wrap them up by

October of next year, so we have

only got 12 months left, the clock

is ticking and there is a huge

amount of ground to cover.

You do

not think there is any point in

having the vote the week before we

leave because you could then not go

and re-negotiate?

That would not be

acceptable. We will not be given a

bit of paper and told to take it or

leave it. But the following day

Steve Baker, also a minister in the

department, told our committee that

the government now accepts that in

order to implement transitional

arrangements that it is seeking, it

will need separate legislation. I

put the question to him if you are

going to need separate legislation

to do that, why don't you have a

separate bill to implement the

withdrawal agreement rather than

seeking to use the powers the

government is proposing to take in

the EU withdrawal bill.

If we stick

to the timing, you have said you do

not think it is possible to

negotiate a trade deal in the next

12 months. You say the only people

who think that is possible British

ministers. If you do not believe we

can get a deal negotiated, how can

we get a vote on it in 12 months'

time?

If things go well, and there

is still a risk of no agreement

which would be disastrous for the

economy and the country, if

things go there will be a deal on

the divorce issues, there will be a

deal on the nature of the

transitional arrangement and the

government is to set out how it

thinks that will work, and then an

agreement between the UK and the 27

member states saying, we will now

negotiate a new trade and market

access arrangement, and new

association agreement between the

two parties, and that will be done

in the transition period. Parliament

will be voting in those

circumstances on a deal which leads

to the door being open.

But we would

be outside the EU at that point, so

how meaningful can vote be where you

take it or leave it if we have

already left the EU? Surely this has

to happen before March 2019 for it

to make a difference?

I do not think

it is possible to negotiate all of

the issues that will need to be

covered in the time available.

Then

it is not possible to have a

meaningful vote on it?

Parliament

will have to have a look at the deal

presented to it. It is likely to be

a mix agreement so the approval

process in the rest of Europe,

unlike the Article 50 agreement,

which will be a majority vote in the

European Parliament and in the

British Parliament, every single

Parliament will have a vote on it,

so it will be a more complex process

anyway, but I do not think that is

the time to get all of that sorted

between now and October next year.

Whether it is before or after we

have left the EU, the government

have said it is a take it or leave

it option and it is the Noel Edmonds

option, deal or no Deal, you say yes

or no to it. You cannot send them

back to re-negotiate.

If it is a separate piece of

legislation, when Parliament has a

chance to shape the nature of that

legislation.

But it can't change

what has been negotiated with the

EU?

Well, you could say to the

government, we're happy with this

but was not happy about that chukka

here's some fresh instructions, go

back in and...

It seems to me what

they want is the maximum access to

the single market for the lowest

possible tariffs, whilst able to

control migration. If they've got to

get the best deal that they can on

that, how on earth is the Labour

Party, saying we want a bit more,

owing to persuade the other 27?

We

certainly don't want the lowest

possible tariffs, we want no tariffs

are taught. My personal view is

that, has made a profound mistake in

deciding that it wants to leave the

customs union. If you want to help

deal with the very serious question

of the border between Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland,

the way you do that is to stay in

the customs union and I hope, will

change its mind.

But the Labour

Party is simply saying in the House

of Commons, we want a better deal

than what, has been able to get?

It

depends how the negotiations unfold.

, has ended up on the transitional

arrangements in the place that Keir

Starmer set out on behalf of the

shadow cabinet in August, when he

said, we will need to stay in the

single market and the customs union

for the duration of the transition,

and I think that is the position,

has now reached. It has not been

helped by differences of view within

the Cabinet, and a lot of time has

passed and there's proved time left

and we have not even got on to the

negotiations. -- there's very little

time left.

On phase two, the labour

Party have set out six clear tests,

and two of them are crucial. You say

you want the exact same benefits we

currently have in the customs union

but you also want to be able to

ensure the fair migration to control

immigration, basically, which does

sound a bit like having your cake

and eating it. You say that you will

vote against any deal that doesn't

give you all of that, the exact same

benefits of the single market, and

allowing you to control migration.

But you say no deal would be

catastrophic if so it seems to me

you're unlikely to get the deal that

you could vote for but you don't

want to vote for no deal?

We

absolutely don't want a no deal.

Businesses have sent a letter to the

Prime Minister saying that a

transition is essential because the

possibility of a no deal and no

transitional would be very damaging

for the economy. We fought the

general election on a policy of

seeking to retain the benefits of

the single market and the customs

union. Keir Starmer said on behalf

of the shadow government that as far

as the longer term arrangements are

concerned, that should leave all

options on the table, because it is

the end that you're trying to

achieve and you then find the means

to support it. So we're setting out

very clearly those tests.

If you

were to vote down an agreement

because it did not meet your tests,

and there was time to send, back to

the EU to get a better deal, then

you would have significantly

weakened their negotiating hand

chukka that doesn't help them?

I

don't think, has deployed its

negotiating hand very strongly thus

far. Because we had a general

election which meant that we lost

time that we would have used for

negotiating. We still don't know

what kind of long-term trade and

market access deal, wants. The Prime

Minister says, I don't want a deal

like Canada and I don't want a deal

like the European Economic Area. But

we still don't know what kind of

deal they want. With about 12 months

to go, the other thing, needs to do

is to set out very clearly above all

for the benefit of the other 27

European countries, what kind of

deal it wants. When I travel to

Europe and talk to those involved in

the negotiations, you see other

leaders saying, we don't actually

know what Britain wants. With a year

to go it is about time we made that

clear.

One related question on the

European Union - you spoke in your

famous speech in Syria about the

international brigades in Spain, and

I wonder if your solidarity with

them leads you to think that the UK

Government should be recognising

Catalonia is an independent state?

No, I don't think so. It is a very

difficult and potentially dangerous

situation in Catalonia at the

moment. Direct rule from Madrid is

not a long-term solution. There

needs to be a negotiation, and

elections will give Catalonia the

chance to take that decision, but I

am not clear what the declaration of

independence actually means. Are

they going to be borders, is they're

going to be an army? There will have

to be some agreement. Catalonia has

already had a high degree of

autonomy. It may like some more, and

it seems to me if you look at the

experience here in the United

Kingdom, that is the way to go, not

a constitutional stand-off. And I

really hope nobody is charged with

rebellion, because actually that

would make matters worse.

Now, the Government has this

week reopened the public

consultation on plans for a third

runway at Heathrow.

While ministers are clear

the £18 billion project

is still the preferred option,

new data raises further questions

about the environmental

impact of expansion,

and offers an improved

economic case for a second

runway at Gatwick instead.

So, with opponents on all sides

of the Commons, does the Government

still have the votes to get

the plans off the ground?

Here's Elizabeth Glinka.

The debate over the expansion

of Heathrow has been

going on for decades.

Plans for a third runway

were first introduced

by the Labour government in 2003.

Then, after spending millions

of pounds, finally, in 2015,

the airport commission recommended

that those plans go ahead,

and the government position

appeared to be fixed.

But, of course, since then,

we've had a general election.

The Government have lost

their Commons majority.

And with opposition on both front

benches, the Parliamentary

arithmetic looks a little bit up

in the air.

A lot has changed since the airport

commission produced its report,

and that don't forget

was the bedrock for the Government's

decision, that's why the government

supposedly made the decision

that it made.

But most of the assumptions

made in that report have

been undermined since,

by data on passenger numbers,

on economic benefits, and more

than anything, on pollution.

There's demand from international

carriers to get into Heathrow.

More and more people want to fly.

And after the referendum,

connectivity post-Brexit

is going to be absolutely critical

to the UK economy, so if anything,

I think the case is stronger

for expansion at Heathrow.

A vote on expansion had been due

to take place this summer.

But with Westminster somewhat

distracted, that didn't happen.

Now, fresh data means

the Government has had to reopen

the public consultation.

But it maintains the case

for Heathrow is as strong as ever,

delivering benefits of up

to £74 billion to the wider economy.

And in any case, the Government

says, action must be taken,

as all five of London's airports

will be completely

full by the mid-2030s.

Still, the new research does cast

an alternative expansion at Gatwick

in a more favourable economic light,

while showing Heathrow

is now less likely to meet

its environmental targets.

Campaigners like these in Hounslow

sense the wind is shifting.

We're feeling encouraged,

because we see all kinds

of weaknesses in the argument.

Certainly, quite a few MPs,

I think certainly Labour MPs,

are beginning to think perhaps it's

not such a great idea

to have a third runway.

Their MP is convinced colleagues

can now be persuaded

to see things their way.

The Labour Party quite

rightly set four key tests

for a third runway at Heathrow.

And in my view,

Heathrow is not able...

The Heathrow option is not able

to pass any of those.

So, I see a lot of colleagues

in the Labour Party around

the country beginning

to think twice.

And if you look at the cross-party

MPs supportin this anti-Heathrow

And if you look at the cross-party

MPs supporting this anti-Heathrow

protest this week, you will see

some familiar faces.

You know my position -

as the constituency MP,

I'm totally opposed.

I think this is another indication

of just the difficulties

the Government have got off

of implementing this policy.

I don't think it's going to happen,

I just don't think

it's going to happen.

So, if some on the Labour

front bench are, shall

we say, not supportive,

what about the other side?

In a free vote, we could have had up

to 60 Conservative MPs

voting against expansion,

that's the number that is normally

used and I think it's right.

In the circumstances where it

requires an active rebellion,

the numbers would be fewer.

I can't tell you what that

number is, but I can tell

you that there are people right

the way through the party,

from the backbenches

to the heart of the government,

who will vote against

Heathrow expansion.

And yet the SNP, whose Commons

votes could prove vital,

are behind the Heathrow plan,

which promises more

connecting flights.

And other supporters are convinced

they have the numbers.

There is a majority of members

of Parliament that support Heathrow

expansion, and when that is put

to the test, whenever that will be,

I think that will be

clearly demonstrated.

Any vote on this issue

won't come until next summer.

For both sides, yet more time

to argue about weather

the plans should take off

or be permanently grounded.

Elizabeth Glinka there.

And I'm joined now by the former

Cabinet minister Theresa Villiers,

who oversaw aviation policy

as a transport minister

under David Cameron.

Thanks for coming in. You have made

your opposition to a third runway at

Heathrow consistently clear. , have

reopened this consultation but it is

still clearly their preferred

option?

It is but what I have always

asked is, why try to build a new

runway at Heathrow when you can

build one at Gatwick in half the

time, for half the cost and with a

tiny fraction of the environment

will cost average is that true,

though? Private finance is already

to go at Heathrow, because that's

where people want to do it and

that's where the private backers

want to put it. It would take much

longer to get the private finance

for Gatwick? Part of that private

finance is passengers of the future,

but also, the costs of the surface

transport needed to expand Heathrow

is phenomenal. I mean, TfL estimates

vary between £10 billion and £15

billion. And there's no suggestion

that those private backers are going

to meet those costs. So, this is a

hugely expensive project as well as

one which will create very

significant damage.

Heathrow is

ultimately where passengers and

airlines want to go to, isn't it?

Every slot is practically full.

Every time a new one comes up, it is

up immediately, it's a very popular

airport. Gatwick is not where they

want to go?

There are many airlines

and passengers who do want to fly

from Gatwick, and all the forecasts

indicate that a new runway there

would be full of planes very

rapidly. But I think the key thing

is that successive elements have

said, technology will deliver a way

to resolve the around noise and air

quality. I don't have any confidence

that science has demonstrated that

technology will deliver those

solutions to these very serious

environmental limbs which have

stopped Heathrow expansion for

decades.

Jim Fitzpatrick in the film

was mentioning that people think

there is a need for even more

collectivity in Britain post-Brexit.

We know that business has been

crying out for more routes, they

really think it hurts business

expansion that we don't get on with

this. More consultation is just

going to lead to more delay, isn't

it?

This is a hugely controversial

decision. There is a reason why

people have been talking about

expanding Heathrow for 50 years and

it is never happened, it's because

it's a bad idea. So, inevitably the

legal processes are very complex.

One of my anxieties about, pursuing

this option is that potentially it

means another lost decade for

airport expansion. Because the

problems with Heathrow expansion are

so serious, I believe that's one of

the reasons why I advocated, anyone

who wants a new runway in the

south-east should be backing Gatwick

is a much more deliverable option.

Let me move on to Brexit. We were

talking with Hilary Benn about a

meaningful vote being given to the

House of Commons chukka how

important do you think that is?

Of

course the Commons will vote on

this. The Commons is going to vote

on this many, many times. We have

also had a hugely important vote not

only in the referendum on the 23rd

of June but also on Article 50.

But

will that vote allow any changes to

it? Hilary Benn seemed to think that

the Commons would be able to shape

the deal with the vote. But actually

is it going to be, saying, take it

or leave it at all what we have

negotiated?

Our Prime Minister

negotiates on our behalf

internationally. It's

well-established precedent that

after an agreement is reached

overseas, then it is considered in

the House of Commons.

What if it was

voted down in the House of Commons?

Well, the legal effect of that would

be that we left the European Union

without any kind of deal, because

the key decision was on the voting

of Article 50 as an irreversible

decision.

Is it irreversible,

though? We understand, may have had

legal advice saying that Yukon

stopped the clock on Article 50.

Would it not be possible if the

Commons voted against to ask the

European Union for a little bit more

time to try and renegotiate?

There

is a debate about the reversibility

of Article 50. But the key point is

that we are all working for a good

deal for the United Kingdom and the

I'm concerned that some of the

amendments to the legislation are

not about the nature of the deal at

the end of the process, they're just

about frustrating the process. I

think that would be wrong. I think

we should respect the result of the

referendum.

Will it be by next

summer, so there is time for

Parliament and for other

parliaments?

I certainly hope that

we get that agreement between the

two sides, and the recent European

summit seemed to indicate a

willingness from the European side

to be constructive. But one point

where I think Hilary Benn has a

point, if we do secure agreement on

a transitional deal, that does

potentially give us more time to

work on the details of a trade

agreement. I hope we get as much as

possible in place before exit day.

But filling out some of that detail

is made easier if we can secure that

two-year transitional deal.

That is interesting because a lot of

Brexiteers what the deal to be done

by the inflammation period, it is

not a time for that.

I fully

recognise we need compromise, I am

keen to work with people across my

party in terms of spectrum of

opinion, and with other parties as

well to ensure we get the best

outcome.

Let me ask you briefly

before you go about the possible

culture of sexual harassment in the

House of commons and Theresa May

will write to the Speaker of the

House of Commons to make sure there

is a better way that people can

report sexual harassment in the

House of commons. Is that necessary?

A better procedure is needed. It is

sad it has taken this controversy to

push this forward. But there is a

problem with MPs who are individual

employers. If you work for an MP and

have a complaint against them,

essentially they are overseeing

their own complaints process. I

think a role for the House of

commons authorities in ensuring that

those complaints are properly dealt

with I think would be very helpful,

so I think the Prime Minister's

letter was a sensible move.

So you

think there is a culture of sexual

harassment in the House of commons?

I have not been subjected to it or

seen evidence of it, but obviously

there is anxiety and allegations

have made their way into the papers

and they should be treated

appropriately and properly

investigated.

Thank you for talking

to us.

Thank you for talking to us.

Next week the Lord Speaker's

committee publishes its final report

into reducing the size

of the House of Lords.

With over 800 members the upper

house is the second largest

legislative chamber in the world

after the National People's

Congress of China.

The report is expected to recommend

that new peerages should be

time-limited to 15 years and that

in the future political peerage

appointments will also be tied

to a party's election performance.

The government has been under

pressure to take action to cut

members of the unelected chamber,

where they are entitled

to claim an attendance

allowance of £300 a day.

And once again these expenses

have been in the news.

The Electoral Reform Society

discovered that 16 peers had claimed

around £400,000 without speaking

in any debates or submitting any

questions for an entire year.

One of the Lords to be

criticised was Digby Jones,

the crossbencher and former trade

minister, he hasn't spoken

in the Lords since April 2016

and has voted only seven times

during 2016 and 2017.

Yet he has claimed around

£15,000 in this period.

When asked what he does

in the House he said,

"I go in and I will invite for lunch

or meet with inward

investors into the country.

I fly the flag for Britain."

Well, we can speak now

to Lord Jones who joins us

from Stratford Upon Avon.

Thank you very much for talking to

us. You provide value for money in

the House of Lords do you think?

Definitely. I am, by the way, very

keen on reform. I want to see that

15 year tide. I would like to see a

time limit, an age limit of 75 or

80. I would like attendants

definitely define so the whole

public understood what people are

paying for and why. The £300, as a

crossbencher I get no support, and

nor do I want any, speech writing,

secretarial assistance, none of

that, and the £300 goes towards

that.

Whilst you are in there

because we will talk about the

reform of the Lords in general, but

in terms of you yourself, you say

you invite people in for lunch, is

it not possible for you to take part

in debates and votes and ask

questions at the same time?

Have you

ever listened to a debate in the

laws? Yes, many times.

Yes, many

times. You have to put your name

down in advance and you have to be

there for the whole debate.

You have

to be around when the vote is called

and you do not know when the book is

called, you have no idea when the

boat is going to be called.

This is

part of being a member of the House

of Lords and what it means. If you

are not prepared to wait or take

part in debates, why do you want to

be a member? It is possible to

resign from the House of Lords.

There are many things members of the

Lords do that does not relate to

parrot fashion following somebody

else, which I refuse to do, about

speaking to an empty chamber, or

indeed hanging on sometimes for

hours to vote. There are many other

things that you do. You quote me as

saying I will entertain at lunchtime

or show people around the House,

everything from schoolchildren to

inward investors. I will meet

ministers about big business issues

or educational issues, and at the

same time I will meet other members

of the Lords to get things moving.

None of that relates to going into

the House and getting on your hind

legs, although I do go in and sit

there and learn and listen to

others, which, if more people would

receive and not transmit, we might

get a better informed society. At

the same time many times I will go

after I have listened and I am

leaving and if I have not heard the

debate, I will not vote.

Voting is

an essential part of being part of a

legislative chamber. This is not

just an executive committee, it is a

legislature, surpassing that law is

essential, is it not?

Do you really

believe that an MP or a member of

the Lords who has not heard a moment

of the debate, who is then listening

to the Bell, walks in and does not

know which lobby, the whips tell

him, they have not heard the debate

and they do not know what they are

voting on and they go and do it?

That is your democracy? Voting seems

to be an essential part of this

chamber, and you have your ideas

about reforming the chamber. It

sounds as though you would reform

yourself out of it. You say people

who are not voting and who are not

taking part in debate should no

longer be members of the House.

I

did not say that. I said we ought to

redefine what attendance means and

then if you do not attend on the new

criteria, you do not have to come

ever again, we will give you your

wish. I agree attendance might mean

unless you speak, you are going.

Fair enough, if that is what is

agreed, yes. Sometimes I would speak

and sometimes I would not. If I did

not, then off I go. Similarly after

15 years, off you go. If you reach

75 or 80, off you go. Why do we have

92 members who are only there

because of daddy.

You are talking

about hereditary peers. You would

like to reduce the House to what

kind of number?

I would get it down

to 400.

You would get rid of half

the peers there at the moment? You

think you are active enough to

remain as one of the 400?

No, I said

that might well include me. Let's

get a set of criteria, let's push it

through, because the laws is losing

respect in the whole of the country

because there are too many and all

these things about what people pay

for. I bet most people think the

money you get is paid. It is not, it

is re-funding for all the things you

have to pay for yourself. But I

understand how respect has been lost

in society. Let's change it now.

Let's get it through and then, yes,

if you do not meet the criteria, you

have got to go and that includes me.

Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking

to us.

Lloyd Jones, thank

you for talking to us.

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be talking to the former

business minister and Conservative

MP Anna Soubry about the Brexit

negotiations and claims of sexual

harassment in Parliament.

Hello and welcome to

Sunday Politics, here

in the glorious west of England.

I hope you remembered

to put your clocks back.

Well, coming up this week,

just how much do university

bosses deserve to be paid?

How does £500,000 sound?

It's what the vice-chancellor

of the University of Bath gets.

And now she is under increasing

pressure to stand down.

Well, I'm joined this week by two

MPs who are worth every penny

of our generous appearance fees,

which is nothing.

They do it because they love you.

They are the Conservative MP

for Cheltenham Alex Chalk.

As well as the Lib Dem MP

for Bath, Wera Hobhouse.

Welcome to you both.

Let's start with the latest

developments over Brexit.

Wera, do you think there

is going to be a deal or not?

I think it looks more and more

as if the government is struggling

to come up with a deal in time

that we can all vote on it.

That is obviously the democracy

that we want to see back in Britain.

If Parliament will not be able

to vote on the deal,

there is going to be a big disaster.

Do you think your friends in Europe

have got any intention

of giving us a deal?

I don't think it is up

for our friends in Europe to set

the timetable entirely.

But they are not

compromising the are they?

I think the government has got

also cards in their hand

that they can put on the table.

I'd say the first thing

would be moving towards

a solution on the money.

How much would you pay?

I wouldn't want to put

a sum on the table.

Come on.

20 billion?

30 billion?

40?

It is about headlines

that the government is making

in order to reassure their European

partners that the British

government is actually

going to stick to its commitment.

Alex, do you think there

is going to be a deal or not?

Well, I'm much more positive

than they are actually.

I think if you listen to the mood

music that is coming

from Angela Merkel, Donald Tusk,

it is quite clear that they think

it's in the interest of the EU 27

as well as in the interest of the UK

and it seems to be,

as I say, far more positive.

So, yeah, I'm pretty optimistic

and I'm optimistic that December

will be the time when they indicate

that we can move on to that

second stage, which,

as little as two weeks ago,

people were thinking

might never happen.

But across the channel they look

at Britain and they see

the government apparently all over

the place with different factions

and they think, well,

let's push for a harder settlement

than we might otherwise

get because they are

so divided among themselves.

Look, I think sometimes these

things are overblown.

Of course there are differences

of emphasis but the government

and the Cabinet are absolutely

united around the Florence speech.

There is a real sense of mission

and solidity and, you know,

I think we're in good shape

and I think from December we're

going to negotiate a deal.

That's only a month

away so we shall see.

We must move on because I think we

might be talking about Brexit again.

Just a thought.

A former Labour minister weighed

into the row over the head

of Bath University's pay this week.

Dame Glynis Breakwell has attracted

widespread criticism

for her pay packet of nearly

£500,000 plus perks.

Well, now Lord Adonis has offered

to do her job for free and to sell

up her grace and favour house

and give the money to the students.

Is your pay justified,

Professor Breakwell?

It's a question she hasn't

yet publicly answered.

Under attack for months,

Glynis Breakwell was escorted

away after a meeting

of Bath University's

governing council.

They had just announced changes.

She will stand down

from the committee which sets

the pay of senior staff

and there will be

a governance review.

Reaction was mixed.

Too little, too late.

If they were serious about it

they could have done this years ago.

They could have had some

proper transparency,

they could have brought in staff

and students to look

at the performance of

the Vice Chancellor.

It is not something

that we are proud of, it is damaging

to the University's reputation.

And the fact that they

are taking these steps

is really positive to see.

He knows there is a lot more to be

done to placate students angry

at how their fees are being spent.

We talk about it a lot

and it's just anger.

No one really agrees with the fact

that she gets paid to much.

I do think it's a bit of an outrage

that she's earning so much really

because as it's in the news a lot

at the moment, public sector

pay is kind of limited.

And seeing as though we are paying

nine grand a year, yeah,

it's a bit of a sting.

After months of adverse

publicity about her pay,

expenses and interest-free car

loan and the grand house

she lives in rent-free,

there are calls for her to go.

My own view is that the Vice

Chancellor should now stand down.

Get the University back onto an even

keel, recruit a successor,

sell this multi-million pound house

in the middle of Bath,

which the university has no

reason for owning at all.

Give that money back to student

and then I think the reputation

of the University will rapidly

recover because it has very good

academic staff, very good students.

It is being held back

by the Vice Chancellor

and the scandal over her salary

and that of other top managers.

Others are more understanding.

For while student numbers

have risen rapidly,

universities must compete hard.

There are many universities that

have seen their numbers drop,

as other universities have grown.

And this University in particular

has seen growth so, yes,

we're doing quite well but that

will be at the cost of other

universities around UK.

Does that mean then you think it's

justified to have salaries

as high as £450,000?

I think that salary is high but that

would be for Bath University

to determine as to whether or not

it's the right salary.

He gets no fancy house and his pay

is almost half that amount

but he will still have to explain it

when the government's new regulator,

the office for students,

starts work in January.

Universities in the future

will have to justify

paying their Vice Chancellors more

than the Prime Minister.

But places like this aren't the only

publicly funded organisations

with senior staff earning more

than £150,000 a year.

From local government

and the police to the NHS,

there are plenty of high earners.

In the West, Avon and Somerset's

Chief Constable earns £154,000.

Swindon borough council's chief exec

gets £164,000 and some NHS

consultants in Bristol

are paid £230,000.

But but as for it in the £450,000

mark, nationally, the BBC's

But as for hitting the £450,000

mark, nationally, the BBC's

director-general is among

the few who do.

Overall, though, top pay has come

down across most of the public

sector in recent years.

That is largely as a result

of falling funding.

Something universities

with their growing student numbers

have not experienced.

I'm pleased to say I'm joined

by Professor Len Shackleton

from the free-market think tank

the Institute of Economic Affairs.

He has written in defence of

the amount vice chancellors are paid

and he's in Westminster for us.

Thanks for coming on.

Is Dame Glynis worth every penny?

Well, I think that's

not for me to decide,

it's not for the Twitter

storm to decide.

I think it's for the governing body

at Bath University to decide

and it's up to them.

I really don't like the way

in which people are being picked

on and it's very interesting,

of course, in another part

of the woods people moan

about the gender pay back

and so forth got a lady

here who is one of the highest

earning vice chancellors in Britain

and of course she's been attacked.

Vice chancellors in the UK earn just

a fraction of what comparable people

do in the United States, Canada,

Australia, you name it.

So, yeah, I think she's probably

worth what she gets but as I say,

it's not my job to decide this.

It's not your job either.

No.

But she is running a charity,

so it's not a business

that can go bust.

And the students, the customers,

are taking out huge loans worried

whereas she's got an interest-free

loan for a car.

Well, talking about cars of course,

I mean, cars are a very

expensive consumer item,

cost as much as university places

but we don't insist that the chief

executive of car companies are paid

no more than the Prime Minister.

So, you know, it depends how

you pick these things.

Remember, universities are not

in the public sector,

they're not recognised

as being public sector by the OECD,

by international measurements.

They are private bodies and really,

when we lay down this kind of thing,

we should be really careful

I think.

OK, don't go away,

I shall come back to you.

Alex, do you agree?

Its free-market economics

and she's worth it.

No, Professor Shackleton,

with respect, has got it

completely wrong to suggest

their private bodies.

He ignores the fact that the tax

puts in, through teaching fees,

through research fees,

well over £10 billion a year.

And when you consider that

students as well as putting

in that kind of money,

it's absolutely right that

universities should have to justify,

not just to themselves,

but publicly as well

those sorts of things.

but publicly as well

those sorts of fees.

And my instinct is something

like over £500,000, that is very,

very difficult to justify and people

just got to get real.

He says it's up to the University.

Well, I don't think

that's good enough.

I mean, it's all very well for them

to justify it to themselves

but I think the public rightly

expects some kind of transparency

so that we can know that given that

public money is going in,

billions and billions

of scarce public resources,

that where there is exceptional pay,

there is exceptional

justification.

And that has got to be

a public judgment.

Let's hear from Wera.

She is your constituent.

She is.

So are you going to defend her?

I have never wanted

to pick on an individual.

It is about the governance

structure of the University.

And we need independent

oversight and good governance

so that the remuneration panel can

make a decision that is

open and transparent.

So it is not about picking

on individuals, it is

about the governance.

She's really been

pillared in the press

and virtually everywhere

about this, actually.

Do you think it crushes a woman?

Oh, an interesting point.

I don't think so.

I think it is because her pay

is exceptionally high and one

of the highest in the country.

It is important to stress

that the success of a University,

is not just down to one person.

The success of the University

is down to the lecturers,

the support staff and the students

themselves.

So just to justify that higher pay

because it is believed that one

person has made that success

of the University

is also not correct.

Let's go back to

Professor Shackleton.

Do you think that vastly overpaid

is the point that Alex is putting

in and the government pays

in billions into universities.

Well, government doesn't pay

directly from a large chunk

of what universities do and,

you know, a large proportion of

students now our overseas students.

We compete in world market

and I think we need people

who are able to take on challenge.

I just repeat the point that

universities are not

in the public sector.

Whereas the BBC for example

is and Andrew Neil and Fiona Bruce

and John Humphrys and all these

people are paid a lot more

than Glynis Breakwell.

Sergei think that is justified?

By the same token?

How can you condemn one

section and not another?

I'm not condemning any of them.

She was also on the

remuneration committee.

She has stood down now.

Of the University.

So they sat around, I guess,

and said, well, look,

I'm going to set your pay,

your pay, your paid.

Now you've got to set mine.

I'll go outside.

That doesn't sound terribly

transparent or clear to me.

Well, that may be an issue

which is worth suing

Well, that may be an issue

which is worth pursuing

and the governance requirements etc

looking up time time.

But there are other highly paid vice

chancellors who don't benefit

from those kind of arrangements.

I come back to, this

is an international market.

British universities have

to compete big-time...

Yeah, but there's also places,

you mentioned the United States

and Canada, but there are places

like Poland which will be

and Canada, but there are places

like Poland which won't be

paying that sort of money.

Well, yes, that's our

comparator, is it, Poland?

Well, what is wrong with that?

We have independent universities.

Polish universities

are controlled by the state.

British universities have a long

tradition of independence and not

and autonomy and I think that's

what we ought to preserve rather

than having some jumped up proconsul

deciding that we should not pay

anybody more than an arbitrary

figure of £150,000.

OK, thank you for your contribution

but I am going to give the final

word on this to Alex.

The Conservatives are

all free-market people,

so it's just not quite clear why

you don't let the free

market take its course.

Well, the proper balance to strike

if to say is you want to justify

exceptional pay because you want

to attract people from

overseas or whatever,

that's fine but do it publicly.

What is not acceptable is for each

university to set its own rules

with effectively mates sitting

around a table deciding

who's going to get what.

They should be open and transparent.

If there needs to be a payment

above £150,000, just make the case.

And if it's a good case,

no doubt it will be justified.

OK, we must move on.

It was where I began my career

all those years ago,

on locals newspapers,

writing for the newspapers

and keeping the town

informed about what's

going on in their parish.

But does the digital revolution

threaten to put an end to all that?

It was one of the big topics at this

week's BBC Future Of News debate

and Robin Markwell was there.

And now, over to a conference

at one of the big national

newspapers, The Daily Sketch.

At the head of the table

sits the editor.

On his left, the managing editor.

Fleet Street in its prime.

Newspapers hot off the press

couldn't be handed out fast enough.

Several editions a day were rushed

out to a grateful reading public.

And they are distributed

in places as far away

as Lands End to a news-hungry

public.

In proportion to our population,

the sale of newspapers in Britain

is greater than that of any other

country in the world.

That was then, this is now.

Read all about!

300 local papers closed

in the last decade!

17 alone during this summer,

says Press Gazette.

This month, two Gloucestershire

papers, which have been printing

daily editions since the 1870s,

switched to printing weekly.

The reason, they're

sliding circulation.

The Gloucester Citizen

and the Gloucestershire Echo's

sales now hover around

a mere 8,000 copies.

The paper's owners say the future

lies with a younger,

larger audience online.

People look at newspapers

like they look at red phone boxes.

Like they look at

Route Master buses.

There is a nostalgia

about a golden era of newspapers

but from my perspective

as a journalist it

never really existed.

And I think we just

have to accept that,

with the death of the pound note,

at some point in the future

there might be a move from a print

product into a new evolved form

of delivering local news.

In a BBC debate this week

on the future of news,

she went on to predict

even her weekly paper may no longer

exist in 20 years' time.

From a quick straw poll,

it was easy to see why.

So how many people here have

bought a local newspaper

this week last week?

Would you raise your hand?

A very small minority.

One former Citizen

paperboy-turned-politician worries

the decline

of the paper may mean

a decline in journalism.

He says he's seeing fewer

journalists covering council

meetings once their bread

and butter of news.

Over the years, the journalists

have been disappearing.

First from the sub committees,

then from the major committees

now from the council meetings.

At the last council meeting,

there was no journalist

there from the Gloucester Citizen.

And what they've been relying

on more and more is cutting

and pasting of press releases coming

out of the council and you don't get

the digging around that you got

in the old days from journalists.

We have local journalists

on the ground, in the communities

that they are living

in as well as reporting on.

I can't comment on what

other traditional print

publishers are doing.

But certainly in my newsroom,

in the newsrooms within

the region that I work,

we have a patch reporters.

We have caught reporters, we have

dedicated political reporters.

We have agenda reporters looking

into investigative stories.

If there are fewer journalists

asking the right questions,

knowing where to get

the information, knowing how

to dig and delve for it,

and trained in matters of law

and so on.

Unless there is a professional

cohort of journalists

holding power to account,

then the problem quite

clearly will be that

democracy will be the loser.

With even editors predicting

their newspapers are heading

the same way as the trusty old red

phone box, should we consign them

to history now or do we risk leaving

traditional readers short-changed?

Well, I for one, love red telephone

boxes and local newspapers

but there will soon be highlights

from the BBC debate

on our BBC website.

Now, the freelance journalist

Phil Chamberlain was also

there and he's head of the School

of Journalism at the University

of the West of England.

Welcome along, thanks for coming.

Is it the beginning, do you think,

of the end for printed news?

No.

And I worked with Rachel

at the Bath Chronicle back

in the day and I'm hoping to turn

out graduates who will be

working in print products

for a number of years yet.

I think we may have thought that

radio was going to be killed off

by television and yet it flourishes

in different forms.

I also think that if you look

at the way print products

are thriving in areas such

as Private Eye and specialist

magazines like that,

that do extremely well and things

like the Voice series in Bristol

that have been delivering

a particular product

to a very specific audience.

I think they're really thriving.

There are real opportunities.

But the days of mass

circulation of local evening

newspapers, for example,

is gone, isn't it?

I think the market has changed

enormously by thing to say

that it is going to go the same

as red phone boxes I think

is too pessimistic.

I think actually there is a future

just in myriad different forms.

Wera, does it matter if people don't

read the local news?

I think there is definitely still

a place for good local journalism.

Whether that is delivered

in print paper or that is

delivered digitally online.

I think the point that was made

about democracy and how we report

on local council meetings,

that is a very important point.

But I do believe very good

journalism can be done

through digital media.

In fact, at the Bath Chronicle,

we just got a very young reporter

who is going to get a reward.

For doing exactly that,

videos and clips.

What is his name?

Sam Petherick.

Congratulations to you.

Alex, what do you reckon?

I mean, if people don't want to read

what's going on in councils,

parish councils, then there's no

point in sending

reporters along to it.

Yeah, but I knew at distinguishing

between two things.

There is definitely a huge

appetite for local news.

So in Cheltenham, people are really

interested in what's going on.

But they're not because they

are not buying the Echo.

They might not be necessarily

buying the print media

but they are increasingly consuming

media, as I am, I very rarely

actually buy a printed copy

of newspapers but I do look

at things on a tablet.

That appetite is still there.

So what the market has got to do

is work out how to deliver it.

I do deprecate the loss

of daily newspapers,

I'm quite nostalgic for them

and I know they serve an important

community purpose because people go

to see the newsagent

except but you can't

hold back the tide.

But I do think that the market

will continue to meet that demand

because it is certainly there.

Are the big media companies prepared

to invest in the local journalism?

Because in the days when they were

earning millions of pounds,

when they had all the classified ads

and the estate agent adds,

when they had all the classified ads

and the estate agent ads,

why didn't they then bring in star

writers,

paid them large salaries and build

up a real editorial base?

I think this funding issue is key.

Alex talked about the market

we're probably operating

in different forms of markets.

You've got people like Google

and Facebook who have a different

kind of business model and that

perhaps earning in some ways off

the backs of the products that

newspapers are putting out.

Actually, local newspaper

companies are profitable,

they are very profitable.

They have always been profitable.

It is how they choose to spend that.

They have got very

high profit margins.

Supermarkets have very low

profit margins and make

enormous profits as well.

It's about how they wish

to organise their model.

Newspapers are profitable,

it's just how they choose

to spend that as well.

You've got differing economic models