29/10/2017 Sunday Politics West


29/10/2017

Sarah Smith and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Hilary Benn and Theresa Villiers.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith, and welcome

to The Sunday Politics,

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where we always bring you everything

you need to know to understand

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what's going on in politics.

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Coming up on today's programme...

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The Government says

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the international trade minister

Mark Garnier will be investigated

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following newspaper allegations

of inappropriate behaviour

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towards a female staff member.

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We'll have the latest.

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The Prime Minister says she can

agree a deal with the EU and plenty

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of time for Parliament to vote on it

before we leave in 2018. Well

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Parliament play ball? New evidence

cast out on the

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In

cast out on the

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In the

cast out on the

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In the West,

cast out on the

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In the West, the

cast out on the

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In the West, the University

cast out on the

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In the West, the University

challenge to. There are more cause

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for the head of Bath University

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on from the abortion act white MPs

are lobbying the Home Secretary to

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stop the alleged harassment of women

attending abortion clinics.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me today to help make sense

of all the big stories,

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Julia Hartley-Brewer,

Steve Richards and Anne McElvoy.

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Some breaking news this morning.

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The Government has announced

that it will investigate

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whether the International Trade

Minister Mark Garnier broke

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the Ministerial Code

following allegations

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of inappropriate behaviour.

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It comes after reports in the Mail

on Sunday which has spoken to one

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of Mr Garnier's former employees.

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News of the investigation

was announced by the Health

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Secretary Jeremy Hunt

on the Andrew Marr show earlier.

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The stories, if they are true,

are totally unacceptable

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and the Cabinet Office will be

conducting an investigation

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as to whether there has been

a breach of the ministerial code

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in this particular case.

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But as you know the

facts are disputed.

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This is something that covers

behaviour by MPs of all parties

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and that is why the other thing

that is going to happen

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is that today Theresa May

is going to write to John Bercow,

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the Speaker of the House of Commons,

to ask for his advice as to how

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we change that culture.

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That was Jeremy Hunt a little

earlier. I want to turn to the panel

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to make sense of this news. This is

the government taking these

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allegations quite seriously.

What

has changed in this story is they

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used to be a bit of delay while

people work out what they should say

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about it, how seriously to take it.

As you see now a senior cabinet

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member out there, Jeremy Hunt, with

an instant response. He does have

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the worry of whether the facts are

disputed, but what they want to be

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seen doing is to do something very

quickly. In the past they would say

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it was all part of the rough and

tumble of Westminster.

Mark Garnier

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does not deny these stories, which

is that he asked an employee to buy

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sex toys, but he said it was just

high jinks and it was taken out of

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context. Is this the sort of thing

that a few years ago in a different

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environment would be investigated?

Not necessarily quite the frenzy

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that it is nowadays. The combination

of social media, all the Sunday

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political programmes were ministers

have to go on armed with a response

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means that you get these we have to

be seen to be doing something. That

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means there is this Cabinet Office

investigation. You pointed out to us

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before the programme that he was not

a minister before this happened. It

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does not matter whether he says yes,

know I did this or did not,

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something has to be seen to be done.

Clearly ministers today are being

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armed with that bit of information

and that Theresa May will ask John

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Bercow the speaker to look into the

whole culture of Parliament in this

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context. That is the response to

this kind of frenzy.

If we do live

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in an environment where something

has to be seen to be done, does that

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always mean the right thing gets

done?

Absolutely not. We are in

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witch hunt territory. All of us work

in the Commons over many years and

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anyone would think it was a scene

out of Benny Hill or a carry on

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film. Sadly it is not that much fun

and it is rather dull and dreary.

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Yes, there are sex pests, yes, there

is sexual harassment, but the idea

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this is going on on a huge scale is

nonsense.

Doesn't matter whether it

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is a huge scale or not? Or just a

few instances?

Any workplace where

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you have the mixing of work and

social so intertwined and you throw

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a huge amount of alcohol and late

night and people living away from

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home you will have this happen.

That

does not make it OK.

It makes sexual

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harassment not OK as it is not

anywhere. This happens to men as

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well and if they have an issue into

it there are employment tribunal 's

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and they can contact lawyers. I do

not think this should be a matter of

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the speaker, it should be someone

completely independent of any party.

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People think MPs are employees of

the party or the Commons, they are

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not.

Because they are self-employed

to whom do you go if you are a

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researcher?

That has to be

clarified. I agree you need a much

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clearer line of reporting. It was a

bit like the situation when we came

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into the media many years ago, the

Punic wars in my case! You were not

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quite sure who to go to. If you work

worried that it might impede your

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career, and you had to talk to

people who work next to you, that is

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just one example, but in the Commons

people do not know who they should

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go to. Where Theresa May might be

making a mistake, it is the same

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mistake when it was decided to

investigate through Levinson the

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culture of the media which was like

nailing jelly to a wall. Look at the

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culture of anybody's job and the

environment they are in and there is

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usually a lot wrong with it. When

you try and make it general, they

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are not trying to blame individuals,

or it say they need a better line on

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reporting of sexual harassment,

which I support, the Commons is a

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funny place and it is a rough old

trade and you are never going to

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iron out the human foibles of that.

Diane Abbott was talking about this

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earlier.

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When I first went into Parliament so

many of those men had been to all

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boys boarding schools and had really

difficult attitudes towards women.

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The world has moved on and

middle-aged women are less likely

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than middle-aged men to believe that

young research are irresistibly

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attracted to them. We have seen the

issues and we have seen one of our

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colleagues been suspended for quite

unacceptable language.

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That is a point, Jarrod O'Mara, a

Labour MP who has had the whip

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suspended, this goes across all

parties.

The idea that there is a

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left or right divide over this is

absurd. This is a cultural issue. In

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the media and in a lot of other

institutions if this is going to

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develop politically, the frenzy will

carry on for a bit and other names

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will come out over the next few

days, not just the two we have

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mentioned so far in politics. But it

also raises questions about how

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candidates are selected for example.

There has been a huge pressure for

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the centre to keep out of things. I

bet from now on there will be much

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greater scrutiny of all candidates

and tweets will have to be looked at

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and all the rest of it.

Selecting

candidates is interesting. Miriam

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Gonzalez, Nick Clegg's wife, says

that during that election they knew

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about Jarrod O'Mara and the Lib Dems

knew about it, so it is difficult to

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suggest the Labour Party did not as

well.

There is very clear evidence

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the Labour Party did know. But we

are in a situation of how perfect

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and well-behaved does everyone have

to be? If you look at past American

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presidents, JFK and Bill Clinton,

these men were sex pest

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extraordinaire, with totally

inappropriate behaviour on a regular

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basis. There are things you are not

allowed to say if you are feminists.

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Young women are really attracted to

powerful men. I was busted for the

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idea that there are young women in

the House of commons who are

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throwing themselves at middle-aged,

potbellied, balding, older men. We

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need to focus on the right things.

When it is unwanted, harassing,

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inappropriate and criminal,

absolutely, you come down like a

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tonne of bricks. It is not just

because there are more women in the

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Commons, it is because there are

more men married to women like us.

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We have to leave it there.

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As attention turns in

Westminster to the hundreds

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of amendments put down on the EU

Withdrawal Bill, David Davis has

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caused a stir this week by saying

it's possible Parliament won't get

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a vote on the Brexit deal

until after March 2019 -

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when the clock runs out

and we leave the EU.

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Let's take a look at how

the controversy played out.

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And which point do you envisage

Parliament having a vote?

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As soon as possible thereafter.

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This Parliament?

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As soon as possible

possible thereafter, yeah.

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As soon as possible thereafter.

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So, the vote in Parliament...

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The other thing...

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Could be after March 2019?

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It could be, yeah, it could be.

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The...

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It depends when it concludes.

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Mr Barnier, remember,

has said he'd like...

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Sorry, the vote of our Parliament,

the UK Parliament, could be

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after March 2019?

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Yes, it could be.

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Could be.

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The thing to member...

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Which would be...

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Well, it can't come

before we have the deal.

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You said that it is POSSIBLE that

Parliament night not vote

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on the deal until AFTER

the end of March 2019.

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I'm summarising correctly

what you said...?

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Yeah, that's correct.

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In the event we don't do

the deal until then, yeah.

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Can the Prime Minister please

explain how it's possible

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to have a meaningful vote

on something that's

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already taken place?

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As the honourable gentleman knows,

we're in negotiations

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with the European Union, but I am

confident that the timetable under

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the Lisbon Treaty does give time

until March 2019

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for the negotiations to take place.

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But I'm confident, because it is in

the interests of both sides,

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it's not just this Parliament that

wants to have a vote on that deal,

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but actually there will be

ratification by other parliaments,

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that we will be able to achieve that

agreement and that negotiation

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in time for this Parliament

to have a vote that we committed to.

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We are working to reach

an agreement on the final deal

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in good time before we leave

the European Union in March 2019.

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Clearly, we cannot say

for certain at this stage

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when this will be agreed.

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But as Michel Barnier said,

he hopes to get a draft deal

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agreed by October 2018,

and that's our aim is well.

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agreed by October 2018,

and that's our aim as well.

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I'm joined now by the former

Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary

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Benn, who is the chair

of the Commons Brexit Committee,

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which David Davis was

giving evidence to.

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Good morning.

When you think a

parliamentary vote should take place

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in order for it to be meaningful?

It

has to be before we leave the

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European Union. Michel Barnier said

at the start of the negotiations

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that he wants to wrap them up by

October of next year, so we have

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only got 12 months left, the clock

is ticking and there is a huge

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amount of ground to cover.

You do

not think there is any point in

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having the vote the week before we

leave because you could then not go

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and re-negotiate?

That would not be

acceptable. We will not be given a

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bit of paper and told to take it or

leave it. But the following day

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Steve Baker, also a minister in the

department, told our committee that

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the government now accepts that in

order to implement transitional

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arrangements that it is seeking, it

will need separate legislation. I

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put the question to him if you are

going to need separate legislation

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to do that, why don't you have a

separate bill to implement the

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withdrawal agreement rather than

seeking to use the powers the

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government is proposing to take in

the EU withdrawal bill.

If we stick

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to the timing, you have said you do

not think it is possible to

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negotiate a trade deal in the next

12 months. You say the only people

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who think that is possible British

ministers. If you do not believe we

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can get a deal negotiated, how can

we get a vote on it in 12 months'

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time?

If things go well, and there

is still a risk of no agreement

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which would be disastrous for the

economy and the country, if

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things go there will be a deal on

the divorce issues, there will be a

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deal on the nature of the

transitional arrangement and the

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government is to set out how it

thinks that will work, and then an

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agreement between the UK and the 27

member states saying, we will now

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negotiate a new trade and market

access arrangement, and new

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association agreement between the

two parties, and that will be done

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in the transition period. Parliament

will be voting in those

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circumstances on a deal which leads

to the door being open.

But we would

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be outside the EU at that point, so

how meaningful can vote be where you

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take it or leave it if we have

already left the EU? Surely this has

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to happen before March 2019 for it

to make a difference?

I do not think

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it is possible to negotiate all of

the issues that will need to be

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covered in the time available.

Then

it is not possible to have a

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meaningful vote on it?

Parliament

will have to have a look at the deal

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presented to it. It is likely to be

a mix agreement so the approval

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process in the rest of Europe,

unlike the Article 50 agreement,

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which will be a majority vote in the

European Parliament and in the

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British Parliament, every single

Parliament will have a vote on it,

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so it will be a more complex process

anyway, but I do not think that is

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the time to get all of that sorted

between now and October next year.

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Whether it is before or after we

have left the EU, the government

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have said it is a take it or leave

it option and it is the Noel Edmonds

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option, deal or no Deal, you say yes

or no to it. You cannot send them

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back to re-negotiate.

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If it is a separate piece of

legislation, when Parliament has a

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chance to shape the nature of that

legislation.

But it can't change

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what has been negotiated with the

EU?

Well, you could say to the

0:15:430:15:47

government, we're happy with this

but was not happy about that chukka

0:15:470:15:52

here's some fresh instructions, go

back in and...

It seems to me what

0:15:520:15:58

they want is the maximum access to

the single market for the lowest

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possible tariffs, whilst able to

control migration. If they've got to

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get the best deal that they can on

that, how on earth is the Labour

0:16:060:16:10

Party, saying we want a bit more,

owing to persuade the other 27?

We

0:16:100:16:15

certainly don't want the lowest

possible tariffs, we want no tariffs

0:16:150:16:18

are taught. My personal view is

that, has made a profound mistake in

0:16:180:16:23

deciding that it wants to leave the

customs union. If you want to help

0:16:230:16:28

deal with the very serious question

of the border between Northern

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Ireland and the Republic of Ireland,

the way you do that is to stay in

0:16:320:16:36

the customs union and I hope, will

change its mind.

But the Labour

0:16:360:16:42

Party is simply saying in the House

of Commons, we want a better deal

0:16:420:16:45

than what, has been able to get?

It

depends how the negotiations unfold.

0:16:450:16:52

, has ended up on the transitional

arrangements in the place that Keir

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Starmer set out on behalf of the

shadow cabinet in August, when he

0:16:570:17:03

said, we will need to stay in the

single market and the customs union

0:17:030:17:07

for the duration of the transition,

and I think that is the position,

0:17:070:17:10

has now reached. It has not been

helped by differences of view within

0:17:100:17:15

the Cabinet, and a lot of time has

passed and there's proved time left

0:17:150:17:19

and we have not even got on to the

negotiations. -- there's very little

0:17:190:17:24

time left.

On phase two, the labour

Party have set out six clear tests,

0:17:240:17:30

and two of them are crucial. You say

you want the exact same benefits we

0:17:300:17:34

currently have in the customs union

but you also want to be able to

0:17:340:17:38

ensure the fair migration to control

immigration, basically, which does

0:17:380:17:42

sound a bit like having your cake

and eating it. You say that you will

0:17:420:17:46

vote against any deal that doesn't

give you all of that, the exact same

0:17:460:17:50

benefits of the single market, and

allowing you to control migration.

0:17:500:17:54

But you say no deal would be

catastrophic if so it seems to me

0:17:540:17:57

you're unlikely to get the deal that

you could vote for but you don't

0:17:570:18:01

want to vote for no deal?

We

absolutely don't want a no deal.

0:18:010:18:06

Businesses have sent a letter to the

Prime Minister saying that a

0:18:060:18:11

transition is essential because the

possibility of a no deal and no

0:18:110:18:14

transitional would be very damaging

for the economy. We fought the

0:18:140:18:17

general election on a policy of

seeking to retain the benefits of

0:18:170:18:20

the single market and the customs

union. Keir Starmer said on behalf

0:18:200:18:24

of the shadow government that as far

as the longer term arrangements are

0:18:240:18:29

concerned, that should leave all

options on the table, because it is

0:18:290:18:32

the end that you're trying to

achieve and you then find the means

0:18:320:18:36

to support it. So we're setting out

very clearly those tests.

If you

0:18:360:18:41

were to vote down an agreement

because it did not meet your tests,

0:18:410:18:45

and there was time to send, back to

the EU to get a better deal, then

0:18:450:18:50

you would have significantly

weakened their negotiating hand

0:18:500:18:52

chukka that doesn't help them?

I

don't think, has deployed its

0:18:520:18:57

negotiating hand very strongly thus

far. Because we had a general

0:18:570:19:01

election which meant that we lost

time that we would have used for

0:19:010:19:04

negotiating. We still don't know

what kind of long-term trade and

0:19:040:19:08

market access deal, wants. The Prime

Minister says, I don't want a deal

0:19:080:19:15

like Canada and I don't want a deal

like the European Economic Area. But

0:19:150:19:19

we still don't know what kind of

deal they want. With about 12 months

0:19:190:19:24

to go, the other thing, needs to do

is to set out very clearly above all

0:19:240:19:28

for the benefit of the other 27

European countries, what kind of

0:19:280:19:32

deal it wants. When I travel to

Europe and talk to those involved in

0:19:320:19:36

the negotiations, you see other

leaders saying, we don't actually

0:19:360:19:41

know what Britain wants. With a year

to go it is about time we made that

0:19:410:19:44

clear.

One related question on the

European Union - you spoke in your

0:19:440:19:50

famous speech in Syria about the

international brigades in Spain, and

0:19:500:19:54

I wonder if your solidarity with

them leads you to think that the UK

0:19:540:19:58

Government should be recognising

Catalonia is an independent state?

0:19:580:20:01

No, I don't think so. It is a very

difficult and potentially dangerous

0:20:010:20:06

situation in Catalonia at the

moment. Direct rule from Madrid is

0:20:060:20:12

not a long-term solution. There

needs to be a negotiation, and

0:20:120:20:17

elections will give Catalonia the

chance to take that decision, but I

0:20:170:20:20

am not clear what the declaration of

independence actually means. Are

0:20:200:20:27

they going to be borders, is they're

going to be an army? There will have

0:20:270:20:31

to be some agreement. Catalonia has

already had a high degree of

0:20:310:20:34

autonomy. It may like some more, and

it seems to me if you look at the

0:20:340:20:39

experience here in the United

Kingdom, that is the way to go, not

0:20:390:20:44

a constitutional stand-off. And I

really hope nobody is charged with

0:20:440:20:47

rebellion, because actually that

would make matters worse.

0:20:470:20:52

Now, the Government has this

week reopened the public

0:20:520:20:56

consultation on plans for a third

runway at Heathrow.

0:20:560:20:58

While ministers are clear

the £18 billion project

0:20:580:21:00

is still the preferred option,

new data raises further questions

0:21:000:21:02

about the environmental

impact of expansion,

0:21:020:21:04

and offers an improved

economic case for a second

0:21:040:21:06

runway at Gatwick instead.

0:21:060:21:07

So, with opponents on all sides

of the Commons, does the Government

0:21:070:21:10

still have the votes to get

the plans off the ground?

0:21:100:21:12

Here's Elizabeth Glinka.

0:21:120:21:22

The debate over the expansion

of Heathrow has been

0:21:260:21:28

going on for decades.

0:21:280:21:29

Plans for a third runway

were first introduced

0:21:290:21:32

by the Labour government in 2003.

0:21:320:21:33

Then, after spending millions

of pounds, finally, in 2015,

0:21:330:21:37

the airport commission recommended

that those plans go ahead,

0:21:370:21:42

and the government position

appeared to be fixed.

0:21:420:21:46

But, of course, since then,

we've had a general election.

0:21:460:21:48

The Government have lost

their Commons majority.

0:21:480:21:52

And with opposition on both front

benches, the Parliamentary

0:21:520:21:55

arithmetic looks a little bit up

in the air.

0:21:550:22:00

A lot has changed since the airport

commission produced its report,

0:22:000:22:03

and that don't forget

was the bedrock for the Government's

0:22:030:22:05

decision, that's why the government

supposedly made the decision

0:22:050:22:07

that it made.

0:22:070:22:09

But most of the assumptions

made in that report have

0:22:090:22:12

been undermined since,

by data on passenger numbers,

0:22:120:22:14

on economic benefits, and more

than anything, on pollution.

0:22:140:22:17

There's demand from international

carriers to get into Heathrow.

0:22:170:22:20

More and more people want to fly.

0:22:200:22:22

And after the referendum,

connectivity post-Brexit

0:22:220:22:25

is going to be absolutely critical

to the UK economy, so if anything,

0:22:250:22:29

I think the case is stronger

for expansion at Heathrow.

0:22:290:22:35

A vote on expansion had been due

to take place this summer.

0:22:350:22:38

But with Westminster somewhat

distracted, that didn't happen.

0:22:380:22:40

Now, fresh data means

the Government has had to reopen

0:22:400:22:43

the public consultation.

0:22:430:22:48

But it maintains the case

for Heathrow is as strong as ever,

0:22:480:22:52

delivering benefits of up

to £74 billion to the wider economy.

0:22:520:22:57

And in any case, the Government

says, action must be taken,

0:22:570:22:59

as all five of London's airports

will be completely

0:22:590:23:04

full by the mid-2030s.

0:23:040:23:08

Still, the new research does cast

an alternative expansion at Gatwick

0:23:080:23:11

in a more favourable economic light,

while showing Heathrow

0:23:110:23:15

is now less likely to meet

its environmental targets.

0:23:150:23:22

Campaigners like these in Hounslow

sense the wind is shifting.

0:23:220:23:27

We're feeling encouraged,

because we see all kinds

0:23:270:23:29

of weaknesses in the argument.

0:23:290:23:31

Certainly, quite a few MPs,

I think certainly Labour MPs,

0:23:310:23:34

are beginning to think perhaps it's

not such a great idea

0:23:340:23:37

to have a third runway.

0:23:370:23:40

Their MP is convinced colleagues

can now be persuaded

0:23:400:23:42

to see things their way.

0:23:420:23:44

The Labour Party quite

rightly set four key tests

0:23:440:23:46

for a third runway at Heathrow.

0:23:460:23:49

And in my view,

Heathrow is not able...

0:23:490:23:52

The Heathrow option is not able

to pass any of those.

0:23:520:23:56

So, I see a lot of colleagues

in the Labour Party around

0:23:560:23:59

the country beginning

to think twice.

0:23:590:24:02

And if you look at the cross-party

MPs supportin this anti-Heathrow

0:24:020:24:07

And if you look at the cross-party

MPs supporting this anti-Heathrow

0:24:070:24:11

protest this week, you will see

some familiar faces.

0:24:110:24:13

You know my position -

as the constituency MP,

0:24:130:24:15

I'm totally opposed.

0:24:150:24:16

I think this is another indication

of just the difficulties

0:24:160:24:19

the Government have got off

of implementing this policy.

0:24:190:24:21

I don't think it's going to happen,

I just don't think

0:24:210:24:24

it's going to happen.

0:24:240:24:25

So, if some on the Labour

front bench are, shall

0:24:250:24:27

we say, not supportive,

what about the other side?

0:24:270:24:30

In a free vote, we could have had up

to 60 Conservative MPs

0:24:300:24:33

voting against expansion,

that's the number that is normally

0:24:330:24:35

used and I think it's right.

0:24:350:24:37

In the circumstances where it

requires an active rebellion,

0:24:370:24:39

the numbers would be fewer.

0:24:390:24:40

I can't tell you what that

number is, but I can tell

0:24:400:24:43

you that there are people right

the way through the party,

0:24:430:24:46

from the backbenches

to the heart of the government,

0:24:460:24:48

who will vote against

Heathrow expansion.

0:24:480:24:50

And yet the SNP, whose Commons

votes could prove vital,

0:24:500:24:53

are behind the Heathrow plan,

which promises more

0:24:530:24:55

connecting flights.

0:24:550:24:56

And other supporters are convinced

they have the numbers.

0:24:560:25:00

There is a majority of members

of Parliament that support Heathrow

0:25:000:25:04

expansion, and when that is put

to the test, whenever that will be,

0:25:040:25:07

I think that will be

clearly demonstrated.

0:25:070:25:08

Any vote on this issue

won't come until next summer.

0:25:080:25:11

For both sides, yet more time

to argue about weather

0:25:110:25:13

the plans should take off

or be permanently grounded.

0:25:130:25:20

Elizabeth Glinka there.

0:25:240:25:25

And I'm joined now by the former

Cabinet minister Theresa Villiers,

0:25:250:25:28

who oversaw aviation policy

as a transport minister

0:25:280:25:30

under David Cameron.

0:25:300:25:37

Thanks for coming in. You have made

your opposition to a third runway at

0:25:370:25:42

Heathrow consistently clear. , have

reopened this consultation but it is

0:25:420:25:46

still clearly their preferred

option?

It is but what I have always

0:25:460:25:50

asked is, why try to build a new

runway at Heathrow when you can

0:25:500:25:53

build one at Gatwick in half the

time, for half the cost and with a

0:25:530:25:57

tiny fraction of the environment

will cost average is that true,

0:25:570:26:01

though? Private finance is already

to go at Heathrow, because that's

0:26:010:26:04

where people want to do it and

that's where the private backers

0:26:040:26:08

want to put it. It would take much

longer to get the private finance

0:26:080:26:11

for Gatwick? Part of that private

finance is passengers of the future,

0:26:110:26:16

but also, the costs of the surface

transport needed to expand Heathrow

0:26:160:26:21

is phenomenal. I mean, TfL estimates

vary between £10 billion and £15

0:26:210:26:29

billion. And there's no suggestion

that those private backers are going

0:26:290:26:33

to meet those costs. So, this is a

hugely expensive project as well as

0:26:330:26:38

one which will create very

significant damage.

Heathrow is

0:26:380:26:42

ultimately where passengers and

airlines want to go to, isn't it?

0:26:420:26:44

Every slot is practically full.

Every time a new one comes up, it is

0:26:440:26:49

up immediately, it's a very popular

airport. Gatwick is not where they

0:26:490:26:55

want to go?

There are many airlines

and passengers who do want to fly

0:26:550:26:58

from Gatwick, and all the forecasts

indicate that a new runway there

0:26:580:27:02

would be full of planes very

rapidly. But I think the key thing

0:27:020:27:06

is that successive elements have

said, technology will deliver a way

0:27:060:27:12

to resolve the around noise and air

quality. I don't have any confidence

0:27:120:27:17

that science has demonstrated that

technology will deliver those

0:27:170:27:22

solutions to these very serious

environmental limbs which have

0:27:220:27:26

stopped Heathrow expansion for

decades.

Jim Fitzpatrick in the film

0:27:260:27:28

was mentioning that people think

there is a need for even more

0:27:280:27:33

collectivity in Britain post-Brexit.

We know that business has been

0:27:330:27:36

crying out for more routes, they

really think it hurts business

0:27:360:27:40

expansion that we don't get on with

this. More consultation is just

0:27:400:27:44

going to lead to more delay, isn't

it?

This is a hugely controversial

0:27:440:27:48

decision. There is a reason why

people have been talking about

0:27:480:27:51

expanding Heathrow for 50 years and

it is never happened, it's because

0:27:510:27:55

it's a bad idea. So, inevitably the

legal processes are very complex.

0:27:550:28:00

One of my anxieties about, pursuing

this option is that potentially it

0:28:000:28:04

means another lost decade for

airport expansion. Because the

0:28:040:28:07

problems with Heathrow expansion are

so serious, I believe that's one of

0:28:070:28:13

the reasons why I advocated, anyone

who wants a new runway in the

0:28:130:28:16

south-east should be backing Gatwick

is a much more deliverable option.

0:28:160:28:20

Let me move on to Brexit. We were

talking with Hilary Benn about a

0:28:200:28:26

meaningful vote being given to the

House of Commons chukka how

0:28:260:28:29

important do you think that is?

Of

course the Commons will vote on

0:28:290:28:32

this. The Commons is going to vote

on this many, many times. We have

0:28:320:28:38

also had a hugely important vote not

only in the referendum on the 23rd

0:28:380:28:41

of June but also on Article 50.

But

will that vote allow any changes to

0:28:410:28:45

it? Hilary Benn seemed to think that

the Commons would be able to shape

0:28:450:28:51

the deal with the vote. But actually

is it going to be, saying, take it

0:28:510:28:55

or leave it at all what we have

negotiated?

Our Prime Minister

0:28:550:29:00

negotiates on our behalf

internationally. It's

0:29:000:29:05

well-established precedent that

after an agreement is reached

0:29:050:29:08

overseas, then it is considered in

the House of Commons.

What if it was

0:29:080:29:13

voted down in the House of Commons?

Well, the legal effect of that would

0:29:130:29:18

be that we left the European Union

without any kind of deal, because

0:29:180:29:20

the key decision was on the voting

of Article 50 as an irreversible

0:29:200:29:25

decision.

Is it irreversible,

though? We understand, may have had

0:29:250:29:31

legal advice saying that Yukon

stopped the clock on Article 50.

0:29:310:29:34

Would it not be possible if the

Commons voted against to ask the

0:29:340:29:38

European Union for a little bit more

time to try and renegotiate?

There

0:29:380:29:41

is a debate about the reversibility

of Article 50. But the key point is

0:29:410:29:50

that we are all working for a good

deal for the United Kingdom and the

0:29:500:29:55

I'm concerned that some of the

amendments to the legislation are

0:29:550:30:00

not about the nature of the deal at

the end of the process, they're just

0:30:000:30:03

about frustrating the process. I

think that would be wrong. I think

0:30:030:30:09

we should respect the result of the

referendum.

Will it be by next

0:30:090:30:12

summer, so there is time for

Parliament and for other

0:30:120:30:15

parliaments?

I certainly hope that

we get that agreement between the

0:30:150:30:18

two sides, and the recent European

summit seemed to indicate a

0:30:180:30:24

willingness from the European side

to be constructive. But one point

0:30:240:30:27

where I think Hilary Benn has a

point, if we do secure agreement on

0:30:270:30:32

a transitional deal, that does

potentially give us more time to

0:30:320:30:35

work on the details of a trade

agreement. I hope we get as much as

0:30:350:30:39

possible in place before exit day.

But filling out some of that detail

0:30:390:30:43

is made easier if we can secure that

two-year transitional deal.

0:30:430:30:52

That is interesting because a lot of

Brexiteers what the deal to be done

0:30:520:30:58

by the inflammation period, it is

not a time for that.

I fully

0:30:580:31:06

recognise we need compromise, I am

keen to work with people across my

0:31:060:31:11

party in terms of spectrum of

opinion, and with other parties as

0:31:110:31:14

well to ensure we get the best

outcome.

Let me ask you briefly

0:31:140:31:20

before you go about the possible

culture of sexual harassment in the

0:31:200:31:24

House of commons and Theresa May

will write to the Speaker of the

0:31:240:31:29

House of Commons to make sure there

is a better way that people can

0:31:290:31:32

report sexual harassment in the

House of commons. Is that necessary?

0:31:320:31:37

A better procedure is needed. It is

sad it has taken this controversy to

0:31:370:31:42

push this forward. But there is a

problem with MPs who are individual

0:31:420:31:47

employers. If you work for an MP and

have a complaint against them,

0:31:470:31:52

essentially they are overseeing

their own complaints process. I

0:31:520:31:56

think a role for the House of

commons authorities in ensuring that

0:31:560:32:00

those complaints are properly dealt

with I think would be very helpful,

0:32:000:32:04

so I think the Prime Minister's

letter was a sensible move.

So you

0:32:040:32:09

think there is a culture of sexual

harassment in the House of commons?

0:32:090:32:12

I have not been subjected to it or

seen evidence of it, but obviously

0:32:120:32:19

there is anxiety and allegations

have made their way into the papers

0:32:190:32:23

and they should be treated

appropriately and properly

0:32:230:32:26

investigated.

Thank you for talking

to us.

0:32:260:32:28

Thank you for talking to us.

0:32:280:32:30

Next week the Lord Speaker's

committee publishes its final report

0:32:300:32:33

into reducing the size

of the House of Lords.

0:32:330:32:35

With over 800 members the upper

house is the second largest

0:32:350:32:37

legislative chamber in the world

after the National People's

0:32:370:32:39

Congress of China.

0:32:390:32:40

The report is expected to recommend

that new peerages should be

0:32:400:32:43

time-limited to 15 years and that

in the future political peerage

0:32:430:32:46

appointments will also be tied

to a party's election performance.

0:32:460:32:50

The government has been under

pressure to take action to cut

0:32:500:32:53

members of the unelected chamber,

where they are entitled

0:32:530:32:56

to claim an attendance

allowance of £300 a day.

0:32:560:33:00

And once again these expenses

have been in the news.

0:33:000:33:03

The Electoral Reform Society

discovered that 16 peers had claimed

0:33:030:33:06

around £400,000 without speaking

in any debates or submitting any

0:33:060:33:09

questions for an entire year.

0:33:090:33:12

One of the Lords to be

criticised was Digby Jones,

0:33:120:33:15

the crossbencher and former trade

minister, he hasn't spoken

0:33:150:33:18

in the Lords since April 2016

and has voted only seven times

0:33:180:33:22

during 2016 and 2017.

0:33:220:33:25

Yet he has claimed around

£15,000 in this period.

0:33:250:33:28

When asked what he does

in the House he said,

0:33:280:33:31

"I go in and I will invite for lunch

or meet with inward

0:33:310:33:34

investors into the country.

0:33:340:33:36

I fly the flag for Britain."

0:33:360:33:39

Well, we can speak now

to Lord Jones who joins us

0:33:390:33:41

from Stratford Upon Avon.

0:33:410:33:45

Thank you very much for talking to

us. You provide value for money in

0:33:450:33:50

the House of Lords do you think?

Definitely. I am, by the way, very

0:33:500:33:57

keen on reform. I want to see that

15 year tide. I would like to see a

0:33:570:34:02

time limit, an age limit of 75 or

80. I would like attendants

0:34:020:34:08

definitely define so the whole

public understood what people are

0:34:080:34:12

paying for and why. The £300, as a

crossbencher I get no support, and

0:34:120:34:18

nor do I want any, speech writing,

secretarial assistance, none of

0:34:180:34:26

that, and the £300 goes towards

that.

Whilst you are in there

0:34:260:34:31

because we will talk about the

reform of the Lords in general, but

0:34:310:34:35

in terms of you yourself, you say

you invite people in for lunch, is

0:34:350:34:39

it not possible for you to take part

in debates and votes and ask

0:34:390:34:43

questions at the same time?

Have you

ever listened to a debate in the

0:34:430:34:48

laws? Yes, many times.

Yes, many

times. You have to put your name

0:34:480:35:00

down in advance and you have to be

there for the whole debate.

You have

0:35:000:35:08

to be around when the vote is called

and you do not know when the book is

0:35:080:35:12

called, you have no idea when the

boat is going to be called.

This is

0:35:120:35:16

part of being a member of the House

of Lords and what it means. If you

0:35:160:35:22

are not prepared to wait or take

part in debates, why do you want to

0:35:220:35:26

be a member? It is possible to

resign from the House of Lords.

0:35:260:35:30

There are many things members of the

Lords do that does not relate to

0:35:300:35:34

parrot fashion following somebody

else, which I refuse to do, about

0:35:340:35:39

speaking to an empty chamber, or

indeed hanging on sometimes for

0:35:390:35:44

hours to vote. There are many other

things that you do. You quote me as

0:35:440:35:49

saying I will entertain at lunchtime

or show people around the House,

0:35:490:35:54

everything from schoolchildren to

inward investors. I will meet

0:35:540:35:57

ministers about big business issues

or educational issues, and at the

0:35:570:36:01

same time I will meet other members

of the Lords to get things moving.

0:36:010:36:06

None of that relates to going into

the House and getting on your hind

0:36:060:36:09

legs, although I do go in and sit

there and learn and listen to

0:36:090:36:13

others, which, if more people would

receive and not transmit, we might

0:36:130:36:20

get a better informed society. At

the same time many times I will go

0:36:200:36:23

after I have listened and I am

leaving and if I have not heard the

0:36:230:36:28

debate, I will not vote.

Voting is

an essential part of being part of a

0:36:280:36:34

legislative chamber. This is not

just an executive committee, it is a

0:36:340:36:40

legislature, surpassing that law is

essential, is it not?

Do you really

0:36:400:36:45

believe that an MP or a member of

the Lords who has not heard a moment

0:36:450:36:49

of the debate, who is then listening

to the Bell, walks in and does not

0:36:490:36:55

know which lobby, the whips tell

him, they have not heard the debate

0:36:550:36:59

and they do not know what they are

voting on and they go and do it?

0:36:590:37:04

That is your democracy? Voting seems

to be an essential part of this

0:37:040:37:10

chamber, and you have your ideas

about reforming the chamber. It

0:37:100:37:15

sounds as though you would reform

yourself out of it. You say people

0:37:150:37:18

who are not voting and who are not

taking part in debate should no

0:37:180:37:22

longer be members of the House.

I

did not say that. I said we ought to

0:37:220:37:29

redefine what attendance means and

then if you do not attend on the new

0:37:290:37:33

criteria, you do not have to come

ever again, we will give you your

0:37:330:37:37

wish. I agree attendance might mean

unless you speak, you are going.

0:37:370:37:43

Fair enough, if that is what is

agreed, yes. Sometimes I would speak

0:37:430:37:48

and sometimes I would not. If I did

not, then off I go. Similarly after

0:37:480:37:54

15 years, off you go. If you reach

75 or 80, off you go. Why do we have

0:37:540:38:00

92 members who are only there

because of daddy.

You are talking

0:38:000:38:05

about hereditary peers. You would

like to reduce the House to what

0:38:050:38:08

kind of number?

I would get it down

to 400.

You would get rid of half

0:38:080:38:15

the peers there at the moment? You

think you are active enough to

0:38:150:38:19

remain as one of the 400?

No, I said

that might well include me. Let's

0:38:190:38:26

get a set of criteria, let's push it

through, because the laws is losing

0:38:260:38:31

respect in the whole of the country

because there are too many and all

0:38:310:38:35

these things about what people pay

for. I bet most people think the

0:38:350:38:39

money you get is paid. It is not, it

is re-funding for all the things you

0:38:390:38:44

have to pay for yourself. But I

understand how respect has been lost

0:38:440:38:50

in society. Let's change it now.

Let's get it through and then, yes,

0:38:500:38:55

if you do not meet the criteria, you

have got to go and that includes me.

0:38:550:39:00

Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking

to us.

0:39:000:39:02

Lloyd Jones, thank

you for talking to us.

0:39:020:39:04

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:040:39:07

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be talking to the former

0:39:070:39:09

business minister and Conservative

MP Anna Soubry about the Brexit

0:39:090:39:12

negotiations and claims of sexual

harassment in Parliament.

0:39:120:39:23

Hello and welcome to

Sunday Politics, here

0:39:230:39:25

in the glorious west of England.

0:39:250:39:27

I hope you remembered

to put your clocks back.

0:39:270:39:31

Well, coming up this week,

just how much do university

0:39:310:39:33

bosses deserve to be paid?

0:39:330:39:35

How does £500,000 sound?

0:39:350:39:38

It's what the vice-chancellor

of the University of Bath gets.

0:39:380:39:41

And now she is under increasing

pressure to stand down.

0:39:410:39:47

Well, I'm joined this week by two

MPs who are worth every penny

0:39:470:39:50

of our generous appearance fees,

which is nothing.

0:39:500:39:52

They do it because they love you.

0:39:520:39:54

They are the Conservative MP

for Cheltenham Alex Chalk.

0:39:540:39:57

As well as the Lib Dem MP

for Bath, Wera Hobhouse.

0:39:570:40:00

Welcome to you both.

0:40:000:40:05

Let's start with the latest

developments over Brexit.

0:40:050:40:07

Wera, do you think there

is going to be a deal or not?

0:40:070:40:11

I think it looks more and more

as if the government is struggling

0:40:110:40:14

to come up with a deal in time

that we can all vote on it.

0:40:140:40:17

That is obviously the democracy

that we want to see back in Britain.

0:40:170:40:23

If Parliament will not be able

to vote on the deal,

0:40:230:40:25

there is going to be a big disaster.

0:40:250:40:35

Do you think your friends in Europe

have got any intention

0:40:350:40:38

of giving us a deal?

0:40:380:40:39

I don't think it is up

for our friends in Europe to set

0:40:390:40:42

the timetable entirely.

0:40:420:40:43

But they are not

compromising the are they?

0:40:430:40:45

I think the government has got

also cards in their hand

0:40:450:40:48

that they can put on the table.

0:40:480:40:49

I'd say the first thing

would be moving towards

0:40:490:40:51

a solution on the money.

0:40:520:40:53

How much would you pay?

0:40:530:40:56

I wouldn't want to put

a sum on the table.

0:40:560:40:59

Come on.

0:40:590:41:00

20 billion?

0:41:000:41:01

30 billion?

0:41:010:41:02

40?

0:41:020:41:04

It is about headlines

that the government is making

0:41:040:41:06

in order to reassure their European

partners that the British

0:41:060:41:08

government is actually

going to stick to its commitment.

0:41:080:41:16

Alex, do you think there

is going to be a deal or not?

0:41:160:41:19

Well, I'm much more positive

than they are actually.

0:41:190:41:21

I think if you listen to the mood

music that is coming

0:41:210:41:24

from Angela Merkel, Donald Tusk,

it is quite clear that they think

0:41:240:41:27

it's in the interest of the EU 27

as well as in the interest of the UK

0:41:270:41:31

and it seems to be,

as I say, far more positive.

0:41:310:41:33

So, yeah, I'm pretty optimistic

and I'm optimistic that December

0:41:330:41:36

will be the time when they indicate

that we can move on to that

0:41:360:41:39

second stage, which,

as little as two weeks ago,

0:41:390:41:41

people were thinking

might never happen.

0:41:410:41:43

But across the channel they look

at Britain and they see

0:41:430:41:45

the government apparently all over

the place with different factions

0:41:450:41:48

and they think, well,

let's push for a harder settlement

0:41:480:41:50

than we might otherwise

get because they are

0:41:500:41:52

so divided among themselves.

0:41:520:41:53

Look, I think sometimes these

things are overblown.

0:41:530:41:55

Of course there are differences

of emphasis but the government

0:41:550:41:57

and the Cabinet are absolutely

united around the Florence speech.

0:41:570:42:00

There is a real sense of mission

and solidity and, you know,

0:42:000:42:03

I think we're in good shape

and I think from December we're

0:42:030:42:06

going to negotiate a deal.

0:42:060:42:07

That's only a month

away so we shall see.

0:42:070:42:09

We must move on because I think we

might be talking about Brexit again.

0:42:090:42:12

Just a thought.

0:42:120:42:13

A former Labour minister weighed

into the row over the head

0:42:130:42:16

of Bath University's pay this week.

0:42:160:42:17

Dame Glynis Breakwell has attracted

widespread criticism

0:42:170:42:19

for her pay packet of nearly

£500,000 plus perks.

0:42:190:42:21

Well, now Lord Adonis has offered

to do her job for free and to sell

0:42:210:42:25

up her grace and favour house

and give the money to the students.

0:42:250:42:32

Is your pay justified,

Professor Breakwell?

0:42:320:42:34

It's a question she hasn't

yet publicly answered.

0:42:340:42:37

Under attack for months,

Glynis Breakwell was escorted

0:42:370:42:39

away after a meeting

of Bath University's

0:42:390:42:41

governing council.

0:42:410:42:46

They had just announced changes.

0:42:460:42:48

She will stand down

from the committee which sets

0:42:480:42:50

the pay of senior staff

and there will be

0:42:500:42:53

a governance review.

0:42:530:42:54

Reaction was mixed.

0:42:540:42:55

Too little, too late.

0:42:550:42:56

If they were serious about it

they could have done this years ago.

0:42:560:42:59

They could have had some

proper transparency,

0:42:590:43:03

they could have brought in staff

and students to look

0:43:030:43:05

at the performance of

the Vice Chancellor.

0:43:050:43:08

It is not something

that we are proud of, it is damaging

0:43:080:43:11

to the University's reputation.

0:43:110:43:14

And the fact that they

are taking these steps

0:43:140:43:16

is really positive to see.

0:43:160:43:18

He knows there is a lot more to be

done to placate students angry

0:43:180:43:22

at how their fees are being spent.

0:43:220:43:28

We talk about it a lot

and it's just anger.

0:43:280:43:30

No one really agrees with the fact

that she gets paid to much.

0:43:300:43:33

I do think it's a bit of an outrage

that she's earning so much really

0:43:330:43:37

because as it's in the news a lot

at the moment, public sector

0:43:370:43:40

pay is kind of limited.

0:43:400:43:41

And seeing as though we are paying

nine grand a year, yeah,

0:43:410:43:44

it's a bit of a sting.

0:43:440:43:45

After months of adverse

publicity about her pay,

0:43:450:43:54

expenses and interest-free car

loan and the grand house

0:43:540:43:57

she lives in rent-free,

there are calls for her to go.

0:43:570:43:59

My own view is that the Vice

Chancellor should now stand down.

0:43:590:44:02

Get the University back onto an even

keel, recruit a successor,

0:44:020:44:05

sell this multi-million pound house

in the middle of Bath,

0:44:050:44:07

which the university has no

reason for owning at all.

0:44:070:44:10

Give that money back to student

and then I think the reputation

0:44:100:44:12

of the University will rapidly

recover because it has very good

0:44:120:44:15

academic staff, very good students.

0:44:150:44:16

It is being held back

by the Vice Chancellor

0:44:160:44:18

and the scandal over her salary

and that of other top managers.

0:44:180:44:21

Others are more understanding.

0:44:210:44:22

For while student numbers

have risen rapidly,

0:44:220:44:24

universities must compete hard.

0:44:240:44:30

There are many universities that

have seen their numbers drop,

0:44:300:44:33

as other universities have grown.

0:44:330:44:34

And this University in particular

has seen growth so, yes,

0:44:340:44:37

we're doing quite well but that

will be at the cost of other

0:44:370:44:40

universities around UK.

0:44:400:44:41

Does that mean then you think it's

justified to have salaries

0:44:410:44:44

as high as £450,000?

0:44:440:44:46

I think that salary is high but that

would be for Bath University

0:44:460:44:49

to determine as to whether or not

it's the right salary.

0:44:490:44:53

He gets no fancy house and his pay

is almost half that amount

0:44:530:44:57

but he will still have to explain it

when the government's new regulator,

0:44:570:45:00

the office for students,

starts work in January.

0:45:000:45:03

Universities in the future

will have to justify

0:45:030:45:09

paying their Vice Chancellors more

than the Prime Minister.

0:45:090:45:12

But places like this aren't the only

publicly funded organisations

0:45:120:45:20

with senior staff earning more

than £150,000 a year.

0:45:200:45:22

From local government

and the police to the NHS,

0:45:220:45:25

there are plenty of high earners.

0:45:250:45:26

In the West, Avon and Somerset's

Chief Constable earns £154,000.

0:45:260:45:28

Swindon borough council's chief exec

gets £164,000 and some NHS

0:45:280:45:31

consultants in Bristol

are paid £230,000.

0:45:310:45:32

But but as for it in the £450,000

mark, nationally, the BBC's

0:45:320:45:42

But as for hitting the £450,000

mark, nationally, the BBC's

0:45:450:45:47

director-general is among

the few who do.

0:45:470:45:49

Overall, though, top pay has come

down across most of the public

0:45:490:45:52

sector in recent years.

0:45:520:45:53

That is largely as a result

of falling funding.

0:45:530:45:59

Something universities

with their growing student numbers

0:45:590:46:01

have not experienced.

0:46:010:46:02

I'm pleased to say I'm joined

by Professor Len Shackleton

0:46:020:46:05

from the free-market think tank

the Institute of Economic Affairs.

0:46:050:46:07

He has written in defence of

the amount vice chancellors are paid

0:46:070:46:10

and he's in Westminster for us.

0:46:100:46:11

Thanks for coming on.

0:46:110:46:13

Is Dame Glynis worth every penny?

0:46:130:46:17

Well, I think that's

not for me to decide,

0:46:170:46:19

it's not for the Twitter

storm to decide.

0:46:190:46:29

I think it's for the governing body

at Bath University to decide

0:46:290:46:32

and it's up to them.

0:46:320:46:33

I really don't like the way

in which people are being picked

0:46:330:46:36

on and it's very interesting,

of course, in another part

0:46:360:46:40

of the woods people moan

about the gender pay back

0:46:400:46:45

and so forth got a lady

here who is one of the highest

0:46:450:46:48

earning vice chancellors in Britain

and of course she's been attacked.

0:46:480:46:51

Vice chancellors in the UK earn just

a fraction of what comparable people

0:46:510:46:54

do in the United States, Canada,

Australia, you name it.

0:46:540:46:56

So, yeah, I think she's probably

worth what she gets but as I say,

0:46:560:46:59

it's not my job to decide this.

0:47:000:47:01

It's not your job either.

0:47:010:47:02

No.

0:47:020:47:03

But she is running a charity,

so it's not a business

0:47:030:47:06

that can go bust.

0:47:060:47:12

And the students, the customers,

are taking out huge loans worried

0:47:120:47:17

whereas she's got an interest-free

loan for a car.

0:47:170:47:19

Well, talking about cars of course,

I mean, cars are a very

0:47:190:47:22

expensive consumer item,

cost as much as university places

0:47:220:47:24

but we don't insist that the chief

executive of car companies are paid

0:47:240:47:27

no more than the Prime Minister.

0:47:270:47:29

So, you know, it depends how

you pick these things.

0:47:290:47:33

Remember, universities are not

in the public sector,

0:47:330:47:36

they're not recognised

as being public sector by the OECD,

0:47:360:47:38

by international measurements.

0:47:380:47:39

They are private bodies and really,

when we lay down this kind of thing,

0:47:390:47:43

we should be really careful

I think.

0:47:430:47:45

OK, don't go away,

I shall come back to you.

0:47:450:47:47

Alex, do you agree?

0:47:470:47:49

Its free-market economics

and she's worth it.

0:47:490:47:56

No, Professor Shackleton,

with respect, has got it

0:47:560:47:57

completely wrong to suggest

their private bodies.

0:47:570:47:59

He ignores the fact that the tax

puts in, through teaching fees,

0:47:590:48:02

through research fees,

well over £10 billion a year.

0:48:020:48:04

And when you consider that

students as well as putting

0:48:040:48:07

in that kind of money,

it's absolutely right that

0:48:070:48:09

universities should have to justify,

not just to themselves,

0:48:090:48:11

but publicly as well

those sorts of things.

0:48:110:48:16

but publicly as well

those sorts of fees.

0:48:160:48:18

And my instinct is something

like over £500,000, that is very,

0:48:180:48:21

very difficult to justify and people

just got to get real.

0:48:210:48:24

He says it's up to the University.

0:48:240:48:25

Well, I don't think

that's good enough.

0:48:250:48:27

I mean, it's all very well for them

to justify it to themselves

0:48:270:48:30

but I think the public rightly

expects some kind of transparency

0:48:300:48:33

so that we can know that given that

public money is going in,

0:48:330:48:36

billions and billions

of scarce public resources,

0:48:360:48:40

that where there is exceptional pay,

there is exceptional

0:48:400:48:42

justification.

0:48:420:48:43

And that has got to be

a public judgment.

0:48:430:48:45

Let's hear from Wera.

0:48:450:48:46

She is your constituent.

0:48:460:48:47

She is.

0:48:470:48:48

So are you going to defend her?

0:48:480:48:50

I have never wanted

to pick on an individual.

0:48:500:48:52

It is about the governance

structure of the University.

0:48:520:48:54

And we need independent

oversight and good governance

0:48:540:48:56

so that the remuneration panel can

make a decision that is

0:48:560:48:59

open and transparent.

0:48:590:49:00

So it is not about picking

on individuals, it is

0:49:000:49:03

about the governance.

0:49:030:49:13

She's really been

pillared in the press

0:49:140:49:15

and virtually everywhere

about this, actually.

0:49:150:49:17

Do you think it crushes a woman?

0:49:170:49:18

Oh, an interesting point.

0:49:180:49:19

I don't think so.

0:49:190:49:20

I think it is because her pay

is exceptionally high and one

0:49:200:49:23

of the highest in the country.

0:49:230:49:27

It is important to stress

that the success of a University,

0:49:270:49:29

is not just down to one person.

0:49:290:49:31

The success of the University

is down to the lecturers,

0:49:310:49:33

the support staff and the students

themselves.

0:49:330:49:35

So just to justify that higher pay

because it is believed that one

0:49:350:49:38

person has made that success

of the University

0:49:380:49:40

is also not correct.

0:49:400:49:41

Let's go back to

Professor Shackleton.

0:49:410:49:49

Do you think that vastly overpaid

is the point that Alex is putting

0:49:490:49:52

in and the government pays

in billions into universities.

0:49:520:49:57

Well, government doesn't pay

directly from a large chunk

0:49:570:49:59

of what universities do and,

you know, a large proportion of

0:49:590:50:02

students now our overseas students.

0:50:020:50:03

We compete in world market

and I think we need people

0:50:030:50:06

who are able to take on challenge.

0:50:060:50:08

I just repeat the point that

universities are not

0:50:080:50:10

in the public sector.

0:50:100:50:13

Whereas the BBC for example

is and Andrew Neil and Fiona Bruce

0:50:130:50:16

and John Humphrys and all these

people are paid a lot more

0:50:160:50:26

than Glynis Breakwell.

0:50:270:50:28

Sergei think that is justified?

0:50:280:50:29

By the same token?

0:50:290:50:30

How can you condemn one

section and not another?

0:50:300:50:33

I'm not condemning any of them.

0:50:330:50:34

She was also on the

remuneration committee.

0:50:340:50:36

She has stood down now.

0:50:360:50:37

Of the University.

0:50:370:50:38

So they sat around, I guess,

and said, well, look,

0:50:380:50:40

I'm going to set your pay,

your pay, your paid.

0:50:400:50:43

Now you've got to set mine.

0:50:430:50:44

I'll go outside.

0:50:440:50:45

That doesn't sound terribly

transparent or clear to me.

0:50:450:50:49

Well, that may be an issue

which is worth suing

0:50:490:50:54

Well, that may be an issue

which is worth pursuing

0:50:540:50:56

and the governance requirements etc

looking up time time.

0:50:560:50:58

But there are other highly paid vice

chancellors who don't benefit

0:50:580:51:01

from those kind of arrangements.

0:51:010:51:02

I come back to, this

is an international market.

0:51:020:51:06

British universities have

to compete big-time...

0:51:060:51:07

Yeah, but there's also places,

you mentioned the United States

0:51:070:51:10

and Canada, but there are places

like Poland which will be

0:51:100:51:15

and Canada, but there are places

like Poland which won't be

0:51:150:51:17

paying that sort of money.

0:51:170:51:18

Well, yes, that's our

comparator, is it, Poland?

0:51:180:51:20

Well, what is wrong with that?

0:51:200:51:22

We have independent universities.

0:51:220:51:23

Polish universities

are controlled by the state.

0:51:230:51:25

British universities have a long

tradition of independence and not

0:51:250:51:31

and autonomy and I think that's

what we ought to preserve rather

0:51:310:51:34

than having some jumped up proconsul

deciding that we should not pay

0:51:340:51:37

anybody more than an arbitrary

figure of £150,000.

0:51:370:51:39

OK, thank you for your contribution

but I am going to give the final

0:51:390:51:42

word on this to Alex.

0:51:420:51:44

The Conservatives are

all free-market people,

0:51:440:51:46

so it's just not quite clear why

you don't let the free

0:51:460:51:49

market take its course.

0:51:490:51:51

Well, the proper balance to strike

if to say is you want to justify

0:51:510:51:55

exceptional pay because you want

to attract people from

0:51:550:51:59

overseas or whatever,

that's fine but do it publicly.

0:51:590:52:02

What is not acceptable is for each

university to set its own rules

0:52:020:52:08

with effectively mates sitting

around a table deciding

0:52:080:52:10

who's going to get what.

0:52:100:52:11

They should be open and transparent.

0:52:110:52:13

If there needs to be a payment

above £150,000, just make the case.

0:52:130:52:16

And if it's a good case,

no doubt it will be justified.

0:52:160:52:19

OK, we must move on.

0:52:190:52:20

It was where I began my career

all those years ago,

0:52:200:52:23

on locals newspapers,

writing for the newspapers

0:52:230:52:25

and keeping the town

0:52:250:52:27

informed about what's

going on in their parish.

0:52:270:52:30

But does the digital revolution

threaten to put an end to all that?

0:52:300:52:34

It was one of the big topics at this

week's BBC Future Of News debate

0:52:340:52:38

and Robin Markwell was there.

0:52:380:52:42

And now, over to a conference

at one of the big national

0:52:420:52:45

newspapers, The Daily Sketch.

0:52:450:52:46

At the head of the table

sits the editor.

0:52:460:52:48

On his left, the managing editor.

0:52:480:52:50

Fleet Street in its prime.

0:52:500:52:52

Newspapers hot off the press

couldn't be handed out fast enough.

0:52:520:52:58

Several editions a day were rushed

out to a grateful reading public.

0:52:580:53:01

And they are distributed

in places as far away

0:53:010:53:03

as Lands End to a news-hungry

public.

0:53:030:53:06

In proportion to our population,

the sale of newspapers in Britain

0:53:060:53:09

is greater than that of any other

country in the world.

0:53:090:53:12

That was then, this is now.

0:53:120:53:16

Read all about!

0:53:160:53:18

300 local papers closed

in the last decade!

0:53:180:53:22

17 alone during this summer,

says Press Gazette.

0:53:220:53:26

This month, two Gloucestershire

papers, which have been printing

0:53:260:53:31

daily editions since the 1870s,

switched to printing weekly.

0:53:310:53:33

The reason, they're

sliding circulation.

0:53:330:53:38

The Gloucester Citizen

and the Gloucestershire Echo's

0:53:380:53:40

sales now hover around

a mere 8,000 copies.

0:53:400:53:44

The paper's owners say the future

lies with a younger,

0:53:440:53:46

larger audience online.

0:53:460:53:51

People look at newspapers

like they look at red phone boxes.

0:53:510:53:55

Like they look at

Route Master buses.

0:53:550:53:59

There is a nostalgia

about a golden era of newspapers

0:53:590:54:02

but from my perspective

as a journalist it

0:54:020:54:05

never really existed.

0:54:050:54:07

And I think we just

have to accept that,

0:54:070:54:09

with the death of the pound note,

0:54:090:54:13

at some point in the future

there might be a move from a print

0:54:130:54:16

product into a new evolved form

of delivering local news.

0:54:160:54:20

In a BBC debate this week

on the future of news,

0:54:200:54:24

she went on to predict

even her weekly paper may no longer

0:54:240:54:27

exist in 20 years' time.

0:54:270:54:29

From a quick straw poll,

it was easy to see why.

0:54:290:54:33

So how many people here have

bought a local newspaper

0:54:330:54:35

this week last week?

0:54:350:54:38

Would you raise your hand?

0:54:380:54:41

A very small minority.

0:54:410:54:44

One former Citizen

paperboy-turned-politician worries

0:54:440:54:45

the decline

0:54:450:54:47

of the paper may mean

a decline in journalism.

0:54:470:54:50

He says he's seeing fewer

journalists covering council

0:54:500:54:53

meetings once their bread

and butter of news.

0:54:530:54:58

Over the years, the journalists

have been disappearing.

0:54:580:55:00

First from the sub committees,

then from the major committees

0:55:000:55:09

now from the council meetings.

0:55:090:55:11

At the last council meeting,

there was no journalist

0:55:110:55:13

there from the Gloucester Citizen.

0:55:130:55:15

And what they've been relying

on more and more is cutting

0:55:150:55:18

and pasting of press releases coming

out of the council and you don't get

0:55:180:55:21

the digging around that you got

in the old days from journalists.

0:55:210:55:27

We have local journalists

on the ground, in the communities

0:55:270:55:29

that they are living

in as well as reporting on.

0:55:290:55:32

I can't comment on what

other traditional print

0:55:320:55:34

publishers are doing.

0:55:340:55:35

But certainly in my newsroom,

in the newsrooms within

0:55:350:55:38

the region that I work,

we have a patch reporters.

0:55:380:55:44

We have caught reporters, we have

dedicated political reporters.

0:55:440:55:51

We have agenda reporters looking

into investigative stories.

0:55:510:55:55

If there are fewer journalists

asking the right questions,

0:55:550:55:57

knowing where to get

the information, knowing how

0:55:570:55:59

to dig and delve for it,

and trained in matters of law

0:55:590:56:02

and so on.

0:56:020:56:03

Unless there is a professional

cohort of journalists

0:56:030:56:04

holding power to account,

then the problem quite

0:56:040:56:06

clearly will be that

democracy will be the loser.

0:56:060:56:11

With even editors predicting

their newspapers are heading

0:56:110:56:21

the same way as the trusty old red

phone box, should we consign them

0:56:220:56:25

to history now or do we risk leaving

traditional readers short-changed?

0:56:250:56:28

Well, I for one, love red telephone

boxes and local newspapers

0:56:280:56:31

but there will soon be highlights

from the BBC debate

0:56:310:56:33

on our BBC website.

0:56:330:56:34

Now, the freelance journalist

Phil Chamberlain was also

0:56:340:56:41

there and he's head of the School

of Journalism at the University

0:56:410:56:44

of the West of England.

0:56:440:56:45

Welcome along, thanks for coming.

0:56:450:56:46

Is it the beginning, do you think,

of the end for printed news?

0:56:460:56:49

No.

0:56:490:56:50

And I worked with Rachel

at the Bath Chronicle back

0:56:500:56:53

in the day and I'm hoping to turn

out graduates who will be

0:56:530:56:56

working in print products

for a number of years yet.

0:56:560:56:59

I think we may have thought that

radio was going to be killed off

0:56:590:57:02

by television and yet it flourishes

in different forms.

0:57:020:57:04

I also think that if you look

at the way print products

0:57:040:57:07

are thriving in areas such

as Private Eye and specialist

0:57:070:57:10

magazines like that,

that do extremely well and things

0:57:100:57:12

like the Voice series in Bristol

that have been delivering

0:57:120:57:14

a particular product

to a very specific audience.

0:57:140:57:16

I think they're really thriving.

0:57:160:57:22

There are real opportunities.

0:57:220:57:24

But the days of mass

circulation of local evening

0:57:240:57:26

newspapers, for example,

is gone, isn't it?

0:57:260:57:28

I think the market has changed

enormously by thing to say

0:57:280:57:31

that it is going to go the same

as red phone boxes I think

0:57:310:57:34

is too pessimistic.

0:57:340:57:35

I think actually there is a future

just in myriad different forms.

0:57:350:57:38

Wera, does it matter if people don't

read the local news?

0:57:380:57:42

I think there is definitely still

a place for good local journalism.

0:57:420:57:45

Whether that is delivered

in print paper or that is

0:57:450:57:48

delivered digitally online.

0:57:480:57:51

I think the point that was made

about democracy and how we report

0:57:510:57:54

on local council meetings,

that is a very important point.

0:57:540:57:57

But I do believe very good

journalism can be done

0:57:570:58:00

through digital media.

0:58:000:58:02

In fact, at the Bath Chronicle,

we just got a very young reporter

0:58:020:58:06

who is going to get a reward.

0:58:060:58:08

For doing exactly that,

videos and clips.

0:58:080:58:11

What is his name?

0:58:110:58:12

Sam Petherick.

0:58:120:58:14

Congratulations to you.

0:58:140:58:19

Alex, what do you reckon?

0:58:190:58:21

I mean, if people don't want to read

what's going on in councils,

0:58:210:58:24

parish councils, then there's no

point in sending

0:58:240:58:26

reporters along to it.

0:58:260:58:28

Yeah, but I knew at distinguishing

between two things.

0:58:280:58:31

There is definitely a huge

appetite for local news.

0:58:310:58:33

So in Cheltenham, people are really

interested in what's going on.

0:58:330:58:36

But they're not because they

are not buying the Echo.

0:58:360:58:38

They might not be necessarily

buying the print media

0:58:380:58:40

but they are increasingly consuming

media, as I am, I very rarely

0:58:400:58:43

actually buy a printed copy

of newspapers but I do look

0:58:430:58:46

at things on a tablet.

0:58:460:58:47

That appetite is still there.

0:58:470:58:48

So what the market has got to do

is work out how to deliver it.

0:58:480:58:52

I do deprecate the loss

of daily newspapers,

0:58:520:58:59

I'm quite nostalgic for them

and I know they serve an important

0:58:590:59:02

community purpose because people go

to see the newsagent

0:59:020:59:04

except but you can't

hold back the tide.

0:59:040:59:06

But I do think that the market

will continue to meet that demand

0:59:060:59:09

because it is certainly there.

0:59:090:59:10

Are the big media companies prepared

to invest in the local journalism?

0:59:100:59:13

Because in the days when they were

earning millions of pounds,

0:59:130:59:15

when they had all the classified ads

and the estate agent adds,

0:59:150:59:18

when they had all the classified ads

and the estate agent ads,

0:59:180:59:23

why didn't they then bring in star

writers,

0:59:230:59:25

paid them large salaries and build

up a real editorial base?

0:59:250:59:28

I think this funding issue is key.

0:59:280:59:30

Alex talked about the market

we're probably operating

0:59:300:59:32

in different forms of markets.

0:59:320:59:36

You've got people like Google

and Facebook who have a different

0:59:360:59:38

kind of business model and that

perhaps earning in some ways off

0:59:380:59:41

the backs of the products that

newspapers are putting out.

0:59:410:59:43

Actually, local newspaper

companies are profitable,

0:59:430:59:45

they are very profitable.

0:59:450:59:46

They have always been profitable.

0:59:460:59:47

It is how they choose to spend that.

0:59:470:59:49

They have got very

high profit margins.

0:59:490:59:51

Supermarkets have very low

profit margins and make

0:59:510:59:53

enormous profits as well.

0:59:530:59:54

It's about how they wish

to organise their model.

0:59:540:59:58

Newspapers are profitable,

it's just how they choose

0:59:581:00:00

to spend that as well.

1:00:001:00:01

You've got differing economic models

if you like competing,

1:00:011:00:10

so you might have bloggers

who are doing it out of love

1:00:101:00:13

and then you've got professional,

if you like in inverted commas...

1:00:131:00:18

So you need that core

of professionals, don't you,

1:00:181:00:20

otherwise you could get a load

of fake news.

1:00:201:00:22

Absolutely.

1:00:221:00:23

And I think that is exactly

the place for good local journalism.

1:00:231:00:26

And a paper like our local paper,

the Bath Chronicle,

1:00:261:00:28

is a trusted brand and people

want to get their information

1:00:281:00:31

from a trusted brand.

1:00:311:00:32

Trust I think is key.

1:00:321:00:34

That is a real sellable

commodity I think.

1:00:341:00:35

I think that will be

just as important.

1:00:351:00:37

We have to leave it there.

1:00:371:00:39

Unlike newspapers, we can't just

print an extra page.

1:00:391:00:41

Our time is up.

1:00:411:00:42

And there's always news

on local television.

1:00:421:00:44

You've done your bit

for the Bath Chronicle today.

1:00:441:00:46

They'll be thrilled.

1:00:461:00:47

What about the Gloucestershire Echo?

1:00:471:00:49

And the Echo, and the citizen

and evening Post.

1:00:491:00:52

Before we go, just time

for our round-up of the political

1:00:521:00:54

week with our Robin.

1:00:551:01:01

It was a bleak week

for the Council in Swindon.

1:01:011:01:03

Around 400 jobs are to go,

that's 15% of its workforce as it

1:01:031:01:06

adjusts to funding cuts.

1:01:061:01:10

The NHS dismissed rumours that

Cheltenham's downgraded A&E

1:01:101:01:12

might eventually close.

1:01:121:01:15

There have been concern

from councillors following a pilot

1:01:151:01:18

scheme to transfer some orthopaedic

patients to the

1:01:181:01:20

Gloucestershire Royal.

1:01:201:01:26

perhaps it's the first male MP

in the chamber, I too very proudly

1:01:261:01:29

paint my nails today.

1:01:291:01:30

The Bristol MP Darren Jones sported

nail polish in the Commons.

1:01:301:01:33

It was part of the police's

let's nail it campaign.

1:01:331:01:36

It's targeted at modern slavery

in places like nail bars.

1:01:361:01:43

Ruby!

1:01:431:01:44

And there was disappointment

for that Cheltenham MP

1:01:441:01:47

in the Westminster dog

of the year awards.

1:01:471:01:50

His pooch, Ruby, failed to place.

1:01:501:01:52

Second spot went to

the member for Taunton Deane

1:01:521:01:54

and her beagle, Bonnie.

1:01:541:01:55

Both were rescued dogs

in need of new homes.

1:01:551:02:04

Oh, what a week.

1:02:041:02:06

Well, we're off to paint our nails.

1:02:061:02:09

My thanks to all my guests

for joining me here but now

1:02:091:02:12

we will return to London and Sarah,

who is waiting for us.

1:02:121:02:15

With that, it's back to Sarah.

1:02:161:02:25

Now, the much anticipated

EU Withdrawal Bill,

1:02:251:02:28

which will transfer EU law into UK

law in preparation for Brexit,

1:02:281:02:31

is expected to be debated

by MPs later next month.

1:02:311:02:36

Critics have called it a "power

grab" as it introduces so-called

1:02:361:02:39

Henry VIII powers for Whitehall

to amend some laws without

1:02:391:02:41

consulting parliament,

and it faces fierce resistance

1:02:411:02:45

from opposition parties

as well as many on the government's

1:02:451:02:49

own backbenches, with 300 amendments

and 54 new clauses tabled on it.

1:02:491:02:54

We're joined now by the Conservative

MP Anna Soubry who has been a strong

1:02:541:02:57

critic of the legislation.

1:02:571:03:01

Thank you very much for joining us.

Before we talk about the withdrawal

1:03:011:03:06

bill, I would like to bring up with

you that the Prime Minister has just

1:03:061:03:11

sent a letter to the Commons Speaker

John Bercow asking for an

1:03:111:03:15

independent body to be established

to investigate claims of sexual

1:03:151:03:19

harassment in Parliament. What are

your thoughts on that?

A very good

1:03:191:03:24

idea, sounds like a great deal of

common sense. I had already this

1:03:241:03:28

morning sent a request to the

speaker asking for an urgent

1:03:281:03:31

statement from the Leader of the

House as to what could now be done

1:03:311:03:35

to make sure that any complaints

actually against anybody working in

1:03:351:03:41

Parliament, to extend the

protections that workers throughout

1:03:411:03:44

the rest of businesses and in other

workplaces have, they should now be

1:03:441:03:49

extended into Parliament and asking

for an urgent statement from the

1:03:491:03:52

leader. Clearly the PM is well onto

this and it is a good idea. We have

1:03:521:03:57

to make sure everybody who works in

Parliament enjoys exactly the same

1:03:571:04:01

protections as other workers, so I

welcome this.

This should maybe have

1:04:011:04:06

happened a long time ago. We hear

stories of harassment that has been

1:04:061:04:11

going on for decades, but until now

it has been difficult to work out

1:04:111:04:14

who you could complain to about it.

It is my understanding that my Chief

1:04:141:04:20

Whip and the previous deputy Chief

Whip, and Milton, shared that view

1:04:201:04:24

and have shared that view for some

time but found it difficult to get

1:04:241:04:29

all the agreement necessary. Anyway,

we are where we are and we are

1:04:291:04:33

making that progress, but

1:04:331:04:45

my Chief Whip and the previous

deputy Chief Whip wanted this done

1:04:461:04:48

some time ago.

That is an

interesting point. Let's move on to

1:04:481:04:51

the much anticipated EU withdrawal

bill which will finally be debated.

1:04:511:04:53

You have put your name to an

amendment which is calling for a

1:04:531:04:55

vote on the final agreement in

essence, do you really believe that

1:04:551:04:58

that will be a meaningful both

offered to the Commons?

Yes, if you

1:04:581:05:02

look at the terms of the amendment,

it would deliver exactly that. It

1:05:021:05:07

would give members of Parliament the

opportunity to debated and voted on

1:05:071:05:12

it. It would be an effective piece

of legislation and would go through

1:05:121:05:16

both houses and should be done. One

of the problems with this process is

1:05:161:05:21

that Parliament has been excluded

from the sort of debate and

1:05:211:05:25

decisions that would have enabled

the government to move forward in

1:05:251:05:30

progress and form a consensus so we

get the very best Brexit deal.

We

1:05:301:05:40

have been excluded, that has been

wrong in my view, but by the end we

1:05:401:05:43

should not be excluded. The

government have made it clear that

1:05:431:05:46

whilst there may well be a boat if

you win on this amendment, it will

1:05:461:05:49

be a take it or leave it vote. This

is a deal you should accept, or

1:05:491:05:54

there will be no deal.

If you look

at the amendment we put forward

1:05:541:06:00

there will be other alternatives.

This is all hypothetical because we

1:06:001:06:04

want a good deal and it is difficult

to see that the government would not

1:06:041:06:07

bring a good deal to the House in

any event. But this is hypothetical,

1:06:071:06:13

it would mean Parliament would say

to government, go back and seek an

1:06:131:06:18

extension as we know it is there in

Article 50. It is perfectly possible

1:06:181:06:24

with the agreement of the other

members of the EU to seek an

1:06:241:06:28

extension so we continue the

negotiations and we get a deal that

1:06:281:06:32

is good for our country. It keeps

all options open and that is the

1:06:321:06:36

most important thing.

How many

Conservative MPs really would take

1:06:361:06:41

that option in those circumstances?

It is only if you get enough votes

1:06:411:06:46

that you would be able to ask the

government to go back and

1:06:461:06:49

re-negotiate.

1:06:491:07:00

Have you for that?

For give me, but

you are jumping way down the line. I

1:07:031:07:06

am talking about an amendment that

keeps the options open. I am not

1:07:061:07:08

speculating as to what would happen,

I am not going there, it is far too

1:07:081:07:12

speculative. Let's get this bill in

good shape. The principle of this

1:07:121:07:15

bill is right and we need to put

into British domestic law existing

1:07:151:07:21

EU laws and regulations into our

substantive law. We all agree that

1:07:211:07:26

must happen. It is the means by

which we do it that causes problems

1:07:261:07:31

and we have this argument and debate

about what we call the endgame.

I am

1:07:311:07:37

sure we will talk about this many

more times before we get to that

1:07:371:07:41

vote. I will turn to our panel of

political experts. Listening to the

1:07:411:07:46

tone of what the remainders are

trying to achieve with the EU

1:07:461:07:52

withdrawal bill, will be achieved?

You can hear that tussled there,

1:07:521:07:57

they want the maximum space and room

for Parliament to have a say. But

1:07:571:08:02

they have to be careful. The reason

is that clock is ticking and if you

1:08:021:08:08

have a situation which may seem to

be more interested in finding

1:08:081:08:14

different things to object to and

saying no to, it is not getting a

1:08:141:08:18

good deal and it does not look good

for the remainders in this argument

1:08:181:08:22

and they will have to come through

with their proposals. I do not mind

1:08:221:08:27

Parliament saying it should have a

big say, but what do you do if

1:08:271:08:31

Parliament says this is not good

enough? The government must simply

1:08:311:08:37

say, I am sorry we have run out of

time. The 27 will say they cannot be

1:08:371:08:42

bothered to have another round

either. They have to be strong, but

1:08:421:08:47

realistic about what their role in

this is.

Do you think the people

1:08:471:08:51

putting this amendment who say they

want a binding vote in parliament

1:08:511:08:56

are doing it because they think

Parliament should have a say or

1:08:561:08:59

because they want to obstruct it?

They do not think people should have

1:08:591:09:04

a say in the first place, they think

people got it wrong, so they need

1:09:041:09:09

more clever people than the voters

to have final say.

Or they believed

1:09:091:09:16

taking back control means Parliament

should have the final say.

1:09:161:09:19

Parliament said they would like to

give that decision back to the

1:09:191:09:22

people. This is the issue. It seems

to me that people like Anna Soubry

1:09:221:09:28

are trying to delay of the

transition period a bit longer.

1:09:281:09:32

These negotiations will take as long

as they have got. The EU will take

1:09:321:09:37

it to the wire and if we do not get

a decent deal, and one of the

1:09:371:09:45

reasons is the level of incompetence

on this government's part I have to

1:09:451:09:48

say and the other one will be the

people who want to remain

1:09:481:09:53

undermining them. They undermined

the government at every single stage

1:09:531:09:59

and they undermine Britain's

interests.

It is the timing of all

1:09:591:10:03

of this that is crucial and whether

the government can get a deal in

1:10:031:10:06

time.

There will be a meaningful

vote, whether it is an shined in

1:10:061:10:13

legislation or not, there cannot be

an historic development as big as

1:10:131:10:18

this without Parliament having a

meaningful vote. I meaningful,

1:10:181:10:23

having the power to either stop it

or endorse it. You cannot have a

1:10:231:10:27

government doing something like this

with no vote in the House of

1:10:271:10:30

commons. When you say it will go to

the last minute I completely agree,

1:10:301:10:37

but last-minute in reality means

next summer. It has got to get

1:10:371:10:42

through the European Parliament and

the Westminster Parliament and quite

1:10:421:10:45

a few others as well.

The trouble

with invoking Parliament is if it is

1:10:451:10:52

driven solely by remain, I would

love to say what people in the

1:10:521:10:57

league side think. I disagree with

Julia, I do not think you could say

1:10:571:11:04

people had their say and the terms

with which we leave are left open

1:11:041:11:09

and only the government should have

a say in it, Parliament clearly

1:11:091:11:12

should have a say in it.

Do we want

a good deal or not?

It does not mean

1:11:121:11:21

anything if you do not do it by next

summer I suggest.

Does that leave

1:11:211:11:26

Parliament any room for changing the

deal or is it simply take it or

1:11:261:11:30

leave it?

It will have to have that

rule because it cannot simply be

1:11:301:11:35

another of these binary votes were

you accept the deal or no Deal.

1:11:351:11:39

There has to be some space.

How can

a few MPs in the House of Commons

1:11:391:11:45

change a deal that has been agreed

by the member states?

Because of the

1:11:451:11:50

sequence, a huge if by the way, if

they vote down the deal that the

1:11:501:11:56

government has negotiated, the

government will have to re-negotiate

1:11:561:11:59

or there will have to be an

election. This will be a moment of

1:11:591:12:03

huge crisis, our government not

getting through its much topped

1:12:031:12:06

about...

It is a mini Catalonia.

I

think it would be as big as

1:12:061:12:15

Catalonia, but with the implication

that there would have to be a

1:12:151:12:18

practical change in the deal because

if Parliament has not supported

1:12:181:12:21

it...

It is a remain fantasy that

this deal can be put off and off

1:12:211:12:27

until they get something that is as

close to remaining as they can

1:12:271:12:32

possibly get. I am very much for

trying to get the best and avoiding

1:12:321:12:37

the worst, but there is an unreality

to that position if you keep trying

1:12:371:12:43

to do it again and again, at some

point people will want clarity.

I

1:12:431:12:49

labour putting forward a realistic

proposition?

I thought Hilary Benn

1:12:491:12:55

was very realistic this morning, I

wish he was more in the driving seat

1:12:551:12:59

of Labour policy. He made clear

where he disagreed and he made clear

1:12:591:13:04

where he thought the negotiations

had gone off track or were bogged

1:13:041:13:07

down. I worry a bit about the Labour

position being incoherent, but that

1:13:071:13:16

is kept that way by the present

leadership because as far as they

1:13:161:13:19

are concerned the government is

suffering enough, why should they

1:13:191:13:23

have a position? Hilary Benn said we

needed to have clarity about the

1:13:231:13:29

timetable. It is like reading an

insurance contract and finding the

1:13:291:13:32

bit where you might get away with

it. That is not a policy.

1:13:321:13:35

That is not a policy.

1:13:351:13:38

That's all for today.

1:13:381:13:39

Join me again next Sunday

at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:391:13:42

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:421:13:46

Sarah Smith and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include chair of the Exiting the EU Select Committee Hilary Benn and former transport minister Theresa Villiers. Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Anne McElvoy are the political panel.


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