05/11/2017 Sunday Politics West


05/11/2017

Sarah Smith and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include shadow defence secretary Nia Griffith, George Galloway and Peter Hitchens.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, everyone,

and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your guide to everything

that's happening in the world

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of politics this Sunday morning.

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On today's show:

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Theresa May's right-hand man

Damian Green has denied claims that

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police found pornography

on a computer in his office in 2008.

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He says the allegations by a former

police chief are "political smears."

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With claims of sexual harassment

at Westminster growing by the day,

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can either Theresa May

or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

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to grips with a scandal

threatening to engulf

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the entire political class?

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We'll ask a minister and senior

member of the Shadow Cabinet.

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And some on the left of politics

have been gathering to mark 100

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In the West:

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Life on the streets,

a new law offers more help

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to people sleeping rough,

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but will be government put in enough

cash to make a difference?

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So there's plenty of

explosive political news

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to get you in the mood

for bonfire night -

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and with me as usual,

three journalists who know quite

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a bit about parliamentary plots -

if rather less about

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gunpowder and treason.

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It's Tom Newton Dunn,

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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So what are the big political

stories making the news this Sunday?

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Well, the papers are brimming

with further allegations against MPs

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in the sexual harassment scandal,

which according to one newspaper has

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left Westminster frozen in fear.

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First Secretary of State Damian

Green, already under

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investigation over allegations -

which he strongly denies -

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of propositioning a female activist,

is the subject of new claims that

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police discovered pornography

on a computer in his Westminster

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office in 2008.

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Mr Green denies the allegation,

made by former senior

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police officer Bob Quick,

saying it is "completely untrue,"

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and adding that he is the victim

of disreputable "political smears."

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Michael Fallon, who resigned

as Defence Secretary this week

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over his past behaviour,

is also subject to fresh claims

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he lunged at a female journalist

in 2003 after a lunch.

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Labour is facing questions

over its handling of sexual

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misconduct allegations.

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This morning Shadow Cabinet minister

Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

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on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew

about alleged misconduct by MP

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Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted

to the Shadow Cabinet.

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And there is a reminder that normal

political life goes on,

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with reports that the Cabinet has

agreed to put housing at the heart

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of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

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Well, let's hear from

Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

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she was on the Andrew Marr Show

earlier talking about the claims

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against her Cabinet colleague Damian

Green.

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Absolutely not. I think it is

something that will take place in

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terms of clearing out Westminster of

that sort of behaviour, and I think

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that Westminster afterwards,

including the Government, will be

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better for it. When we are confident

that men and women can work any

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respectful environment and people on

the receiving end of abuse of power

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can come forward. That will be a

positive thing.

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Let's see what our panel make of

this fairly explosive week. Good

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morning to all of you. Starting with

you, Steve. Not a party political

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issue but the Tories are in

Government. How much harder for them

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is it an Labour?

Always harder when

you are in Government because it

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makes governing almost impossible.

And the wider context is a Prime

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Minister who lost her overall

majority a few months ago and

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actually that is the context of

everything. When you are having to

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deal with the scandal of such

unpredictability, where the

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terms are so imprecise, it is a

"lunge", a resignation issue, to use

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that term, and nightmare. I don't

think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

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bring down governments, but it makes

governing for Theresa May a form of

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political health.

Isabel Oakeshott,

Damian Green has denied all

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allegations made against him, but

there are more this morning. He is

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being investigated by the Cabinet

Office at the moment. If Theresa May

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were to effectively lose her Deputy

Prime Minister, has serious without

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the?

I think very serious indeed. I

think it is very significant and

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strange he was not defended in the

Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

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clip we saw today, she didn't say I

am certain he will survive, and I am

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beginning to feel that Damian may

not survive this. We don't know

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whether it is the last of the

allegations that may come out in

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relation to him. It seems to me that

the allegations were previously of a

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rather minor order, but this seems

to have escalated. And I think one

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of the big problems for Theresa May,

and there are the many at the

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moment, for months we have been

saying that this Government has no

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bandwidth to do anything except

Brexit and right now she can't even

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do Brexit. What is the point of it

all?

It is important to make clear

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not only that Damian Green denies

all of these allegations, but the

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computer mentioned was in a shared

office so there is no reason it

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would definitely be his

# No guarantee it would definitely

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be his. But we have had two MPs on

television this morning, Anna

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Soubry, saying he should stand down.

There is an awful lot going on here.

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It is not just a pretty awful sexual

harassment scandal. There are also

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without a doubt MPs, police

officers, going about settling

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scores. For me I have to say for our

pretty discredited police officer

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Bob Quick, to make accusations

against serving Cabinet minister, to

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suggest he should go for extreme

pornography on computers he may or

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may not have known, it may be

extremely distasteful but it is

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alarming for democracy to have

ex-police officers like this coming

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in and trying to play with

democracy. Some politicians are also

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meeting claims, some for the right

reasons to get the allegations out

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there and so on but others for their

own agendas and all of this puts the

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Prime Minister in an unbelievably

hard situation. I agree with Steve

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and Isabel, she desperately needs

two show leadership in all this, but

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every way she could turn there are

incredible downfalls, people blaming

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her for trying to get to the bottom

of all this. It is very people who

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she is relying on for her

leadership, the very Tory MPs the

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support she can't lose.

It is not

just the Tory party and of course

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Jeremy Corbyn will be making a

speech later today where this will

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inevitably and there are accusations

about how the senior leadership in

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the Labour Party have handled this.

What about that situation?

Yes, but

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the Government is much harder

because you are meant to be doing

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10,000 other things at the same

time. This is about a deregulated

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work environment. For all those who

say, I hate the way Britain is too

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regulated, this is what happens in a

deregulated work environment. The

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House of Commons has no HR or

whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

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actually don't have much power but

they do have power over who the

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point and how to treat them. I think

this is the way forward in terms of

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the practical outcome, but it is

across the political spectrum.

But

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it is unclear what it will be. Can

the party sort this out?

I'm not

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sure I entirely agree, Steve, you

cannot regulate all human

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interaction and a lot of these

stories have been about interactions

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between politicians and journalists

alike, who have gone out for lunch,

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chosen to drink, presumably to

create an informal atmosphere, and

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at what point is a step towards

somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

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the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You

can't regulate that sort of thing.

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Throughout the programme will come

back to some of these things and how

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they might be regulated.

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Now, the Home Secretary has

also today been talking

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about what she calls the "moral

duty" of social media companies

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to stop child sexual exploitation,

ahead of a meeting with her US

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counterparts this week.

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We're joined now by the Home Office

minister Sarah Newton -

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she's in our Truro studio.

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Thanks very much for coming in to

speak the first night. I want to

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talk to you about the Government's

efforts to tackle child pornography,

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but let's pick up on some of the

sexual harassment issues at

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Westminster first. Two of your

parliamentary colleagues this

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morning saying they think the first

Secretary of State Damian Green

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should step down whilst being

investigated. Do you agree?

Look, he

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has vigorously denied these

accusations, and the Cabinet Office

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is investigating these accusations,

so we do have processes for when

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ministers have these accusations

made against them so they are

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properly investigated. And that is

what is going on at the moment.

Is

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that process people can be confident

in? He is effectively being

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investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one

of his colleagues.

This is a tried

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and tested process that has stood

the test of time, and it is

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important...

Has it? Surely what we

are learning is it has not stood the

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test of time and that in fact

allegations like this have been

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swept under the carpet and ignored

for years and years in Westminster,

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exactly what we are learning right

now.

I think you are conflating two

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things they are, and what we really

do need to do is look at the whole

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range of allegations people have

been making, and make sure

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Parliament is a safe place for

people to work, a respectful

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environment for people who have been

subjected to harassment or bullying

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or inappropriate behaviour, so that

they feel confident to come forward

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knowing they will be listened to,

that there will be an open and

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transparent and fair to everyone

concerned process for getting to the

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bottom of it, and that is exactly

what the Prime Minister and the

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Leader of the Cows have set out,

Prime Minister's meeting with all

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the leaders of the parties tomorrow

to set out a proper process so we

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can modernise the work environment

at Westminster -- leader of the

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House have set out.

You think Damian

Green should remain in the Cabinet

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well being investigated?

That will

be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

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thinks the misdemeanours have a

basis, that he should stand aside,

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that will be the recommendation. I

will not second the inquiry on what

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Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.

You were

in the Whips' Office yourself for a

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year. And much has been said this

week of the whips being in receipt

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of a lot of information about bad

behaviour, and instead of reporting

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it to authorities they were using it

as ammunition. Was that your

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experience?

Absolutely not. I was at

the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

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yes, I heard about the rumours of a

black spreadsheet, and I can

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certainly say I never saw such a

thing. How I went about my business

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as a whip is really twofold. It is

quite a technical job in many ways,

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about of the Government through the

House, working with the House

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authorities, the opposition. Also...

Did you ever hear rumours of these

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people's bad behaviour?

Sorry?

Did

you ever hear rumours of MPs

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misbehaving, sexual harassment,

allegations are that?

If anybody had

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brought a complaint to me about the

behaviour of one of the MPs who were

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in my flock, I would take that

really seriously, but bull-mac, that

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didn't happen.

You said nobody

brought you a complaint. Did you

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hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't

happen.

About the members of my

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flock? Absolutely not.

Is that the

MPs you were specifically in charge

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of?

I did not have that experience

at all.

Let's move on and talk about

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the Home Secretary's trip to

Washington this week, where she will

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urge tech companies to go further

and faster on online child abuse. We

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have heard a lot from this

Government urging these companies to

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do something. One specific ideas of

what they could do, do you have a

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clear idea of what you are asking

from tech companies?

Absolutely

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right. As you know, this horrendous

crime of child sexual exploitation

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and grooming is constantly evolving

as the opportunities for the

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perpetrators arise. They are now

using live streaming, different

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sorts of platforms, which are

largely controlled by the big

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companies in America. What we really

want them to do is to step up and

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use their huge expertise, used the

huge money they have got, to help

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find technological solutions to read

their sites and rid the opportunity

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of these paedophiles to be able to

groom young people. We need the

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politicians in America to exert

pressure, as well as other

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companies, because these are global

problems. We are not going to solve

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this problem in the UK alone. We

have made a lot of progress, working

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with Facebook and other companies as

well, but we really need to keep one

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step ahead of the technology, one

step ahead of the perpetrators, who

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are using these opportunities to

commit horrendous crimes.

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It was back in 2014 Theresa May for

the Internet companies to do more in

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terms of child abuse online and we

have not seen significant action,

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and it does not appear these kind of

calls from the Government actually

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make difference.

Well, at the moment we are seeing

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the police being able to make about

400 arrests per month, about 500

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children being safeguarded. The

Government itself is investing a lot

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of money in new technology like the

project Arachnid, and making sure

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the police have the specialist

resources they need to go

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undercover, and absolutely find

these perpetrators and bring them to

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justice, but we do need to

constantly have the engagement and

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support of the companies themselves

to invest in further technologies to

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prevent this from happening. As you

say, we have made progress but we

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need to see yet more.

Sarah Newton,

thank you very much for speaking to

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us today.

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Michael Fallon's decision

to resign this week,

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saying his past conduct with women

fell short of the standard expected

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of the Armed Forces, led

to something of a minor reshuffle.

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And the Prime Minister took

Westminster by surprise

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when she announced his replacement,

former Chief Whip and relative

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newcomer to the ministerial

ranks, Gavin Williamson.

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Here he is speaking on the day

of his appointment.

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It's an immense privilege to have

been appointed Secretary

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of State for Defence,

and what we need to be doing

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is continuing to focus

on countering Daesh,

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making sure that our national

security is at the forefront

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of everything that we do,

and we have some of the world's

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greatest armed services,

and it's such a privilege to be able

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to work with them.

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Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,

arrives at the Ministry of Defence

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at a challenging time

for UK defence.

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The Government has promised

an above-inflation increase

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in spending every year

but the Ministry of Defence

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is already committed to finding

£20 billion of savings

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over the next ten years.

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The Cabinet Office is currently

conducting a security review

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which will look at military

capabilities and funding up to 2022,

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while there are continuing

reports of shortages

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of manpower and equipment.

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And if Labour were to win power,

questions persist over

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what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership

would mean for defence budget

0:16:140:16:16

and the traditional cornerstones

of UK defence policy

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like Trident and Nato.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Let's talk about defence spending

first. Would Labour commit to the

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same thing this Government has which

is an above inflation increase in

0:16:370:16:40

spending every year?

We've been

absolutely clear about that. First

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and foremost we'd meet our

commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:450:16:50

of GDP on defence as is our Nato

commitment and we would match the

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Government's year-on-year 0.5%

increase above inflation. This is

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really important. Labour's always

had a good strong track record of

0:16:590:17:03

spending on defence.

Jeremy Corbyn

seems to have a different view.

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Speaking at a protest in 2010 he

said Labour wanted to fight all the

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cuts except those in the Armed

Forces where we want to see a few

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more cuts taking place. He doesn't

seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:150:17:20

In the manifesto for this year's

election, 2017, he and John

0:17:200:17:25

McDonnell have been absolutely clear

we support the exact words I've been

0:17:250:17:28

using now, at least 2% of the spend

of GDP spent on defence.

Jeremy

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Corbyn's changed his mind on that?

He's been very clear about that and

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it was in our manifesto this year.

You criticised the Government on

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whether they meet their 2%

commitment on defence. You saying

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they were fiddling the figures

because they were including

0:17:490:17:52

pensions. You would strip that out

and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:520:17:57

on defence which doesn't include

pensions?

Technically, the

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Government would argue you are

allowed to include pensions by the

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Nato rules. But we've been very

clear, really, when you're talking

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about defence spending it should

mean defence. When you look at the

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last year of the Labour Government

we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

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very much committed to looking at

what we need in our defence budget

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and looking to the problems they

have now where they can't meet the

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commitments they've made.

You would

sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:270:18:32

In order to live up to these

commitments you have to find an

0:18:320:18:37

extra billion for the defence

budgets because we're not

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calculating pensions anymore?

John

McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:410:18:45

are doing. Putting in the conflict

resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:450:18:49

kept separate. He is well aware of

the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:490:18:54

are certainly very committed to a

defence budget that really does make

0:18:540:18:58

a difference.

I'm not clear whether

you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:18:580:19:03

spending, excluding pensions?

We

want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:030:19:09

way Labour always calculate it had

up until 2010, not including

0:19:090:19:13

pensions.

A significant increase in

military spending?

We are talking

0:19:130:19:18

about making sure the spending we

need is there because, at the

0:19:180:19:22

current situation, we have with the

current Government, they are

0:19:220:19:25

overstretched. Even the very caution

National Audit Office says they are

0:19:250:19:31

at immense risk of not being able to

meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:310:19:36

they have made. Others talk about a

black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:360:19:41

£20 billion. There is a real issue

we have to address.

To you know what

0:19:410:19:48

it will cost, how muchedingsal funds

will have to be found?

We have to

0:19:480:19:53

rook at what are the needs at the

time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:530:19:59

make that 2% commitment not

including things which have just

0:19:590:20:02

been brushed in now by the

Conservative Government.

Let's move

0:20:020:20:06

on to a different aspect of defence.

There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:060:20:12

weapons opened at the UN for

signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:120:20:16

already signed it. Would an incoming

Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:160:20:21

The important point here is there

was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:210:20:24

there to be observers from the UK.

There should have been at that

0:20:240:20:29

treaty talks.

That doesn't change

the calculation whether or not an

0:20:290:20:35

incoming Labour Government would

sign that treaty?

We are committed

0:20:350:20:41

to a strong multi-lateral disarming

programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:410:20:46

missing.

This is a multilateral

approach to try to get rid of

0:20:460:20:50

nuclear weapons. What you say you

want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:500:20:55

that treaty?

You we have to look at

how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:550:20:59

somebody clear we want to

de-escalate tensions across the

0:20:590:21:02

world. Work with other nuclear

partners to help stop the

0:21:020:21:07

proliferation of nuclear weapons. We

want to work with those countries

0:21:070:21:11

who feel very strongly about the

treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:110:21:17

have to do that in a multilateral

framework.

This is a multi-lateral

0:21:170:21:23

disarmament framework. Under the

auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:230:21:27

else it could be organised. This is

a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:270:21:31

have been a lifelong campaigner for

disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:310:21:36

will be the first nuclear power to

do so, sign it and lead the way.

We

0:21:360:21:41

need to use our position to be

responsible and call for responsible

0:21:410:21:46

multi-lateral disarmamentment there

was progress made on this in the

0:21:460:21:49

eighties and nineties with

considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:490:21:52

to one side and destroyed. We need

to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:520:21:56

I don't see any presence by the UK

Government at the moment on that

0:21:560:21:59

aagain da. It is not helpful for the

nukes leer nations to be separated

0:21:590:22:05

from the non-nuclear nation in the

these debates.

That's why I don't

0:22:050:22:10

understand why you're not taking the

opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:100:22:15

Government would Take The Stand.

We

should wok together and we should

0:22:150:22:18

use our position as a nuclear power

to work for a multilateral

0:22:180:22:23

disarmament programme.

You were very

clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:230:22:27

Labour Party would keep Trident for

the meantime.

Abs will yously.

We

0:22:270:22:31

know throughout his life, Jeremy

Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:310:22:34

it. He signed up to the manifesto

saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:340:22:41

changed his minds?

The important

thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:410:22:46

Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.

We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:460:22:50

is the Labour Party position.

Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:500:22:55

Leader really believes in that

position?

He believes in democracy

0:22:550:22:58

in the party. That is the Labour

Party position. I don't see that

0:22:580:23:02

position changing at all. He has

said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:020:23:06

that is our Labour Party position.

And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:060:23:10

stood on and will continue to stand

on.

I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:100:23:14

sexual harassment in Westminster. It

is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:140:23:19

Party as the Conservative. It was

not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:190:23:23

your colleague on The Andrew Marr

Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:230:23:26

whether or not the leadership knew

about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:260:23:31

Do you know?

I absolutely do not

know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:310:23:35

why there has to be an

investigation. It is extremely

0:23:350:23:37

important to find out what the

allegations were, exactly what

0:23:370:23:42

happened, who was told and who told

what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:420:23:47

position to see what the situation

is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:470:23:52

has been suspended which is the

cricket thing to do.

Rosie Winterton

0:23:520:23:58

has been outspoken about what she

let the leadership know. If it is

0:23:580:24:03

the case the leadership did know

about these allegations should he

0:24:030:24:06

have been put into the Shadow

Cabinet?

The real question is who

0:24:060:24:11

did know what when.

But what I'm

asking you is...

I am anot going to

0:24:110:24:17

speculate whether there was an if or

whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:170:24:21

information was transmitted. Was it

put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:210:24:25

who was told what, when. Until we

have a full investigation it would

0:24:250:24:29

be inappropriate to comment. What is

absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:290:24:33

this right for the future. We must

have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:330:24:37

with incidents as and when they

occur. And we deal with them

0:24:370:24:42

prepperly in a way which gets to the

bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:420:24:45

it properly.

Why should anyone have

confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:450:24:50

treat issues that seriously when,

firstly there's a question whether

0:24:500:24:55

they knew about Kelvin hop kips and

others have been dissuaded from

0:24:550:24:59

making complaints. Knots just Bex

Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:24:590:25:04

was harassed at a party senior

figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:040:25:09

it was her own fault. It seems as if

there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:090:25:16

Labour to make a complaint.

That's

why we're having a thorough review

0:25:160:25:21

of procedures. We brought in new

procedures in July. We need to

0:25:210:25:26

ensure there's a proper helpline

available. We are appointing an

0:25:260:25:31

independent organisation which will

deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:310:25:34

nobody has to go to somebody they

think might know other people, be

0:25:340:25:37

friends with other people. They can

go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:370:25:43

and private. These are often things

you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:430:25:47

friends about. We will appoint that

organisation and make sure people

0:25:470:25:51

can go there and access to it is

made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:510:25:56

important when people come into a

job, they know if anything does

0:25:560:25:59

happen, they will be able to

complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:25:590:26:03

party members or working in

Westminster.

Thank you for talking

0:26:030:26:09

to us

0:26:090:26:09

For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:090:26:11

on the left of politics,

0:26:110:26:13

this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:130:26:15

to mark the anniversary

of the failed gunpowder

0:26:150:26:17

plot here in Britain,

but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:170:26:20

ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries

led by Lenin seized power

0:26:200:26:22

and ushered in seven

decades of Communist rule.

0:26:220:26:24

For critics, that's something

to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:240:26:26

Elizabeth Glinka went to one event

in London to find out more.

0:26:260:26:28

The 7th November 1917.

0:26:320:26:34

Red Guards under the leadership

of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:340:26:38

Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:380:26:43

This uprising, known

popularly as Red October

0:26:430:26:46

because of the difference

in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:460:26:48

was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:480:26:51

The winds of socialist change had

been blowing for some time.

0:26:510:26:55

The Tsars had resisted reform

and millions toiled in a state

0:26:550:27:00

of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:000:27:03

Then war.

0:27:030:27:06

Nearly two million

Russians would die.

0:27:060:27:11

The revolution had really begun nine

months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:110:27:16

The world's first socialist

republic was declared.

0:27:160:27:22

October, well that

was the Bolsheviks

0:27:220:27:25

asserting their authority.

0:27:250:27:29

A hundred years on, as this

event at the TUC shows,

0:27:310:27:34

there's still plenty of people

who want to remember and even

0:27:340:27:38

celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:380:27:41

Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:410:27:44

this is an example of historical

development in action,

0:27:440:27:47

the ability of people to club

together and be able to affect

0:27:470:27:50

the discourse of history.

0:27:500:27:52

It was people's first attempt at

trying to build socialism.

0:27:520:27:54

Although there were many terrible

things that happened,

0:27:540:27:57

I think we have to try

and draw from experience.

0:27:570:27:59

Jeremy Corbyn's close friend

and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:27:590:28:02

was chairing the opening session.

0:28:020:28:05

He didn't want to talk to us

but we did manage to speak

0:28:050:28:08

to the daughter of one of the most

famous Communists of all time.

0:28:080:28:14

TRANSLATION:

It's an historic moment

0:28:140:28:17

which opened up possibilities

for further changes

0:28:170:28:20

and allowed other people

to strive for a different world.

0:28:200:28:22

A world, which it seems,

some are still keen to push for.

0:28:220:28:26

We're growing, so there is obviously

a positive reflection.

0:28:260:28:28

There is a lot of negative

propaganda that comes

0:28:280:28:31

from the Cold War period.

0:28:310:28:33

It is harder to talk

to older people maybe.

0:28:330:28:35

But younger people

are quite receptive.

0:28:350:28:37

The events and discussions taking

place here today cover a whole range

0:28:370:28:40

of topics from women's

rights to the Third World

0:28:400:28:43

and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:430:28:45

But there's much less discussion

of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:450:28:49

the purges and the political

repression that would come later.

0:28:490:28:53

We wanted to have this conference

0:28:530:28:56

because we wanted to show it

in a positive light.

0:28:560:28:59

Whatever one's view of what happened

to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:28:590:29:02

the fact is it is important

to understand the process

0:29:020:29:06

of revolutionary change

for its own sake.

0:29:060:29:10

Red October would usher

in 70 years of communism.

0:29:110:29:14

The proletarite would rise,

find respect and security.

0:29:140:29:17

But the suppression of the peoples

of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:170:29:21

camps and the murder of hundreds

of thousands, if not millions

0:29:210:29:26

of people, make it difficult

for many to see that revolution

0:29:260:29:29

as something to celebrate.

0:29:290:29:33

That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:340:29:36

So is the centenary

of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:360:29:39

for celebration, or regret?

0:29:390:29:40

Well, to discuss this I'm

joined by former Labour

0:29:400:29:42

and Respect MP George Galloway,

and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:420:29:48

Good morning. Let me start with you

George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:480:29:53

revolution a cause for celebration?

With the, if not for the October

0:29:530:29:58

revolution, we'd been conducting

this interview in German. Though the

0:29:580:30:01

truth is this interview wouldn't be

taking place and we probably

0:30:010:30:05

wouldn't be alive for a variety of

reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:050:30:12

back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill

often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:120:30:15

elsewhere. If not for the Soviet

Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:150:30:23

his successorsness, perhaps until

now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:230:30:29

Portugal.

You say we wouldn't be

able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:290:30:33

former Soviet Union we couldn't have

this office either?

That's also

0:30:330:30:35

true. But even the...

George will be

able to say, that of course.

Even

0:30:350:30:43

the sun has spots on its face as

they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:430:30:47

Union. There is no doubt tremendous

abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:470:30:56

suffering but, if not for the

transformation, then the Soviet

0:30:560:31:06

Union, Russia's GDP increased from

1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:060:31:13

And the strength that defeated

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:130:31:20

Peter Hitchens, does it offend you

there are people celebrating 100

0:31:200:31:24

years since the Russian Revolution?

Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:240:31:29

in which I lived, you would not have

been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:290:31:34

cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but

engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:340:31:37

Government using -- a cynical

putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:370:31:54

was the inauguration of an immensely

long period of repression,

0:31:540:32:00

brutality, secret police,

concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:000:32:03

I am likely to have seen come to an

end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:030:32:07

why anybody looking at that

disastrous country where so much

0:32:070:32:10

misery was needlessly imposed on so

many people for so long could

0:32:100:32:13

possibly celebrate the beginning of

it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:130:32:16

and as I say was truly the result of

the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:160:32:22

intelligence operations of the

Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:220:32:24

to save it skin...

But everyone

including George Galloway

0:32:240:32:29

acknowledges the tyranny and terror

that followed.

He doesn't. He gives

0:32:290:32:34

statistics about GDP but fails to

mention the people murdered in

0:32:340:32:36

labour

0:32:360:32:43

camp... He was of course formerly a

Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:430:32:49

Lenin, which I have not done and

neither have I done today. I have

0:32:490:32:54

never been a Communist, unlike Peter

Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:540:32:58

celebrate that an entirely different

world opened up as a result of the

0:32:580:33:02

events in October 19 17. China, you

have just seen their party congress,

0:33:020:33:07

decorated with the iconography of

the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:070:33:11

is the most powerful, or soon will

be the most powerful country on the

0:33:110:33:15

earth.

With one of the most

repressive government?

I don't think

0:33:150:33:19

that is true. There is repression in

China, but...

Enormous repression in

0:33:190:33:25

China! How can you possibly argue

there is an?

China has taken more

0:33:250:33:30

people out of poverty in the last 30

years than any country, resume,

0:33:300:33:35

system, ever has -- how can you

possibly argue there is not?

All

0:33:350:33:39

despots always argue, trying to

distract your attention from the

0:33:390:33:43

mountains of skulls behind them,

their supposed economic success,

0:33:430:33:47

which generally does not turn out to

be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:470:33:50

Union was an enormous pile of rust

by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:500:33:55

complete catastrophe.

Yes, that is

why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:550:34:00

about the Revolution 100 years ago.

Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:000:34:05

events? A popular overthrowing of a

government is perhaps different from

0:34:050:34:08

the tyranny and terror that

followed.

It was not a popular

0:34:080:34:13

overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein

propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:130:34:18

we see was a film made afterwards.

What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:180:34:23

in the middle of the night in which

hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:230:34:31

mentioned...

That German connection,

a rather more important...

Nobody

0:34:310:34:38

has even mentioned during this year

until now that there was a Russian

0:34:380:34:41

Revolution. There were two. The

first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:410:34:47

overthrowing the old regime, and I

think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:470:34:50

second one was a cynical for --

foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:500:34:56

not deserve to be spoken out.

Is

that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:560:34:59

would have done better than a

Bolshevik one?

It is not my business

0:34:590:35:05

and entirely counterfactual fiction,

if I may...

Unlike how you open this

0:35:050:35:11

discussion.

That is the most

important thing. If not for the

0:35:110:35:15

Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.

Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:150:35:22

world, with its allies -- Adolph

Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:220:35:28

and most of the world...

The effect

of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:280:35:33

Europe was colossal.

Let's bring it

all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:330:35:36

You were saying earlier you have

never been a Leninist, although

0:35:360:35:41

Peter Hitchens confesses he was at

one time.

Absolutely was a

0:35:410:35:48

Trotskyist, and now nor the complete

folly of that particular political

0:35:480:35:54

disposition.

John McDonnell in the

Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:540:35:59

Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a

problem for the Labour Party?

I

0:35:590:36:04

would have thought, arts would be

more respected now than he has been

0:36:040:36:07

for quite some time as capitalism is

collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:070:36:13

2008 the Economist itself, the bible

of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:130:36:18

Marxist economics and analysis, so I

really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:180:36:23

Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only

took them four years, 54...

It is

0:36:230:36:33

not that.

I think we are moving into

an era where Governments like the

0:36:330:36:41

Chinese Government are making plans,

and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:410:36:44

them, and thus transforming their

position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:440:36:51

need to tell you, was just about the

most backward place you could

0:36:510:36:53

possibly imagine. And from 1949 to

now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:530:37:00

is the world's biggest economy...

We

are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:000:37:09

by China here.

I have to put this

point in. If China was backward in

0:37:090:37:13

1949 it was far more backward by the

time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:130:37:17

leap forward and starved millions of

people to death in the period of

0:37:170:37:21

economic lunacy. You just don't

notice...

What George was saying

0:37:210:37:27

they are, and a sense certainly

amongst younger voters in this

0:37:270:37:30

country and others, where they are

turning against capitalism, they

0:37:300:37:33

don't think it has worked or

delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:330:37:37

of Marxist Leninist philosophy is

becoming more popular?

Let's hope

0:37:370:37:40

not. The fact the current system is

failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:400:37:44

the Soviet system, which is

demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:440:37:50

own leaders admitted it failed and

that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:500:37:53

in the period I was there and why it

collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:530:37:56

to conclude from examining our

position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:560:37:59

not the thing you want the dues.

This was a long period of disaster,

0:37:590:38:02

and I remember at the end of it

watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:020:38:07

has never been shown here, and the

title means approximately we can't

0:38:070:38:13

go on living like this, and for the

first time, the politburo told the

0:38:130:38:19

truth about what life was like in

the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:190:38:22

that cinema was weeping because

finally they saw the truth being

0:38:220:38:25

told about the dreadful

anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:250:38:27

been taught to live for so long. The

idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:270:38:31

it seems to me to be verging on the

obscene.

George, one interesting

0:38:310:38:36

question about this of course,

whilst there are events going on in

0:38:360:38:41

London and across the UK to mark

this centenary, it is not being

0:38:410:38:44

celebrated in Russia.

I was in

Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:440:38:47

is a big debate about whether it

ought to be, and many people are

0:38:470:38:52

celebrating it...

Vladimir Putin is

not. He would want to ignore it.

But

0:38:520:38:56

the Communist Party is the second

biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:38:560:39:01

the ruling party in China, which,

with respect, is not a separate

0:39:010:39:07

thing, because China is continuing

the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:070:39:09

rather better at it than the

Russians did, but there are many

0:39:090:39:14

people, particularly older, that is

true, who think that the era of the

0:39:140:39:18

Soviet Union was better than the

very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:180:39:24

succeeded it. So half the world

followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:240:39:31

the red banner of Leninism. No one

will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:310:39:39

kind that Peter used to proselytise

is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:390:39:43

Marxism is going to live on.

Let's

hope not.

Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:430:39:48

for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:480:39:50

It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:500:39:51

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:510:39:52

Coming up on the programme:

0:39:520:39:55

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:550:39:59

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:39:590:40:01

It wasn't just Westminster

that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:010:40:04

We're asking people in Guildford

in Surrey,

0:40:040:40:05

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

0:40:050:40:06

Hello, hello, and welcome to Sunday

politics here in the glorious west

0:40:140:40:17

of England.

0:40:170:40:18

Coming up, last of the summer wine.

0:40:180:40:21

Many farmers and growers

have had had trouble

0:40:210:40:24

recruiting foreign workers

for this year's harvest.

0:40:240:40:26

Is this a taste of

what it has in store?

0:40:260:40:31

Well, it's bonfire

night of course so I'm

0:40:310:40:36

expecting some fireworks

between my guests today.

0:40:360:40:37

They are the Conservative MP

for North Wiltshire,

0:40:370:40:39

James Gray, and the green Euro

MP Molly Scott Cato.

0:40:390:40:43

Nice to see you both.

0:40:430:40:45

Well, in the week's

political news it has

0:40:450:40:50

been dominated rather

by

0:40:500:40:51

the harassment scandal

in Westminster.

0:40:510:40:52

James, are you

surprised at how many MPs have

0:40:520:40:54

been caught up in this?

0:40:540:40:55

Well, it's been a horrible

atmosphere in Parliament

0:40:550:40:57

all week with everyone wondering

what on earth's going on.

0:40:570:41:01

And the thing that

worries me about it is

0:41:010:41:03

that it's very, very

serious matters and that

0:41:030:41:05

have to be investigated

and

0:41:050:41:06

dealt with being muddled up

with a lot of trivia.

0:41:060:41:09

And that is very bad

for all the victims.

0:41:090:41:11

If there are victims

of serious matters, and one

0:41:110:41:13

or two horrible allegations around,

they shouldn't be mixed up with some

0:41:130:41:16

ancient business about some fellow

putting his hand on

0:41:160:41:18

a journalist's knee.

0:41:190:41:20

Shouldn't do that, probably,

but all the less it is trivial by

0:41:200:41:23

comparison to some of the other

things that have been caring.

0:41:230:41:27

We've to take sexual

harassment seriously,

0:41:270:41:28

we've got to do with it,

we've got to prevent it,

0:41:280:41:31

but we mustn't allow it

to be come a witchhunt.

0:41:310:41:33

Is it going to actually

escalate to the

0:41:330:41:35

extent where perhaps it might even

bring down the government?

0:41:350:41:37

Not necessarily the

Conservatives being

0:41:370:41:39

involved but...

0:41:390:41:44

I think there is no risk of that,

I think all parties

0:41:440:41:47

are involved in one way or another.

0:41:470:41:48

I don't think there is any

likelihood of the government falling

0:41:480:41:51

over, I think that would be

extremely surprising, but there will

0:41:510:41:54

be some changes to come at the top

I think and if there

0:41:540:41:57

are people guilty of things,

Michael Fallon apparently

0:41:570:41:59

believed he was, then it's right

that there should be the changes.

0:41:590:42:01

OK, let's move on to you, Molly.

0:42:010:42:03

We're just wondering what your

experience is in the European

0:42:030:42:05

Parliament.

0:42:060:42:07

It's hard to believe that

if there are these issues at

0:42:070:42:09

Westminster it doesn't affect people

in Brussels and Strasbourg, too.

0:42:090:42:12

I have to say, actually,

I haven't experienced

0:42:120:42:14

sexual harassment at all

in the European Parliament.

0:42:140:42:15

I think there is a very

different atmosphere

0:42:150:42:17

there.

0:42:170:42:18

There are many more women

relatively, in the parliament

0:42:180:42:21

compared to Westminster,

and I think that in

0:42:210:42:22

the corridors of power,

the

0:42:220:42:24

old boys' club, the sort

of culture of Westminster

0:42:240:42:26

is quite backward

in

0:42:260:42:27

lots of ways and I think this may be

one example of that.

0:42:270:42:30

Personally I think Ruth

Davidson hit the nail on

0:42:300:42:32

the head when she said usually this

isn't about sex, it's about power,

0:42:320:42:35

and it about that nature power

relationships between men and women

0:42:350:42:38

where there is not a quality that

I think leads to this kind of

0:42:380:42:41

harassment and sexual exploitation.

0:42:410:42:43

James.

0:42:430:42:44

Well, it has of course happened many

times in the European

0:42:440:42:47

Union, too, there's no question

about that whatsoever.

0:42:470:42:49

It happens everywhere

that human beings get

0:42:490:42:50

together, probably

happens at the BBC,

0:42:500:42:52

I dare say, not casting

any

0:42:520:42:53

any...

0:42:530:42:54

Any asparagus at you.

0:42:540:42:55

Asparagus?

0:42:550:42:56

Aspersions, aspersions, aspersions!

0:42:560:42:57

No problem to me,

asparagus.

0:42:570:42:59

It happens in all

human organisations.

0:42:590:43:00

Any evidence of it

happening in the European

0:43:000:43:02

Parliament?

0:43:020:43:03

Yes of course, a number of MEPs have

had to leave because of

0:43:030:43:06

it but it does, of course,

it happens in every

0:43:060:43:09

company, in every organisation

where men and women are getting

0:43:090:43:11

together it can happen

and that is

0:43:110:43:13

why you have team have very clear

rules, very clear rules and

0:43:130:43:16

procedures to make sure

that it isn't allowed to

0:43:160:43:18

happen...

0:43:180:43:20

No, I just wanted to

say indeed there has

0:43:200:43:22

been some allegations in

the previous mandate which are being

0:43:220:43:24

investigated, and one of the things

I think is important that people

0:43:240:43:27

don't just respond in a knee jerk

sort of way but we try and

0:43:270:43:31

look at the fundamentals

of what's going on.

0:43:310:43:41

Yes, that is right yes.

0:43:420:43:43

We have a load of

e-mails from people

0:43:430:43:45

saying "I absolutely agree,

as if that was going

0:43:450:43:47

to solve the problem.

0:43:470:43:48

We don't need virtue signalling

here, we need people to actually

0:43:480:43:51

address the fundamentals.

0:43:510:43:52

Yes.

0:43:520:43:53

We talked about Michael Fallon

as Defence Secretary but we now have

0:43:530:43:56

this guy, Mr Williamson,

with his tarantula, what do

0:43:560:43:58

you think that appointment?

0:43:580:43:59

Well, Gavin's a very,

very able chap highly intelligent,

0:43:590:44:01

highly competent, knows everybody.

0:44:010:44:02

He doesn't yet know

anything about defence,

0:44:020:44:04

he has an awful lot

to

0:44:040:44:05

learn there and I hope

to play a little part

0:44:050:44:08

in helping educate him.

0:44:080:44:09

He does need to learn

a great deal about it.

0:44:090:44:11

Isn't it an odd system

where someone with no idea about

0:44:110:44:14

defence is suddenly in charge

of hundreds of thousands of people?

0:44:140:44:17

I was just about to say the great

British system is that the Secretary

0:44:170:44:20

of State very rarely does.

0:44:200:44:21

One thing you do not

want to have as Secretary

0:44:210:44:24

of State for Health

as a

0:44:240:44:25

doctor and wanted you don't want

to have as secretary of State for

0:44:250:44:28

education is a teacher.

0:44:280:44:29

Civil servants do all

of that, the job of

0:44:290:44:31

the secretary of state is to make

the political decisions on the

0:44:310:44:34

question of the sort of civil

service put up to you.

0:44:340:44:37

Would you ever fancy

Defence Secretary?

0:44:370:44:38

I think it's highly

unlikely the Tories

0:44:380:44:40

would ever appoint me

as

0:44:400:44:41

Defence Secretary but I think

I could really shake things up.

0:44:410:44:44

You would do away with

it, you would do away with it.

0:44:440:44:47

With both my poppies,

I'd be spending a lot more on

0:44:470:44:49

peacemaking than on war-making.

0:44:490:44:50

Well, as well you know, it's been

cold this week so the thought

0:44:500:44:53

of being without a roof

over your head doesn't bear

0:44:530:44:56

thinking about a new law coming

into force next year would mean

0:44:560:44:59

local councils up to do more

to help him

0:44:590:45:01

or at risk of homelessness.

0:45:010:45:02

But there are fears

they would have enough

0:45:020:45:04

money to do it, always

the

0:45:040:45:05

issue, of course.

0:45:050:45:06

Dan O'Brien reports.

0:45:060:45:08

This homeless charity is serving up

hope as well as a meal

0:45:080:45:10

and it is much needed.

0:45:100:45:12

In the mornings,

I think what's the point

0:45:120:45:13

getting up for?

0:45:140:45:15

Yeah.

0:45:150:45:16

And carrying...

0:45:160:45:17

I mean...

0:45:170:45:18

Now the weather's

getting colder, I just

0:45:180:45:19

don't know what I'm going to do.

0:45:190:45:29

Demand is growing in towns like

Devizes, not just in big cities.

0:45:310:45:34

Lost my house, the kids

went into care.

0:45:340:45:36

, Goodness.

0:45:360:45:37

Then I ended up in the back

of a van, where there is no

0:45:370:45:41

heating, water, no access to...

0:45:410:45:42

Cooking food, nothing.

0:45:420:45:43

The arrival of bacon

butties, one of the way the

0:45:430:45:45

open doors charity provides welcome

relief from life on the streets.

0:45:450:45:48

I've had a rough time in life.

0:45:480:45:50

I have obviously have

some addictions,

0:45:500:45:51

I've had to face my demons as well,

I'm still going through them, but

0:45:510:45:54

it's been a long process.

0:45:540:45:56

And it has led to a life

hard to imagine in the

0:45:560:46:02

west's pretty market towns.

0:46:020:46:03

So right now I'm staying

in a wooden shed and

0:46:030:46:05

it's just...

0:46:050:46:06

It's absolutely freezing,

it's really...

0:46:060:46:08

It's diabolical really.

0:46:080:46:09

What, just like a garden shed?

0:46:090:46:10

Just like a garden shed, yeah.

0:46:100:46:12

With my partner and...

0:46:120:46:13

Two of you, then?

0:46:130:46:14

Yeah!

0:46:140:46:17

Homelessness takes many

forms, but rough sleeping

0:46:170:46:18

is the most extreme.

0:46:190:46:20

Across the west, the number

of rough sleepers

0:46:200:46:21

candid in 2010 was 107 people.

0:46:210:46:23

By the time of the last

count in 2016,

0:46:230:46:25

it had more than doubled to 241.

0:46:250:46:29

The next count takes

place in the coming

0:46:290:46:31

weeks.

0:46:310:46:32

Before people even end up needing

the help of homeless

0:46:320:46:35

charities like this one, next year

the law will change forcing councils

0:46:350:46:37

like Wiltshire to provide more help

people more quickly than they do

0:46:370:46:40

now.

0:46:400:46:44

The change are really putting

pressure on council bosses.

0:46:440:46:46

The homeless reductions

act will give us

0:46:460:46:48

the requirement to actually look

after people earlier.

0:46:480:46:51

Up to now it's been 28 days,

now it's 56 now just

0:46:510:46:54

by the sheer numbers

involved that is going

0:46:540:47:00

to double the case load

we

0:47:000:47:02

have every year.

0:47:020:47:03

The government is promising extra

cash, but will it be

0:47:030:47:05

enough?

0:47:050:47:06

We have to balance our priorities

because of course we've

0:47:060:47:09

got looked after kids, we got

elderly care, we got even roads,

0:47:090:47:11

potholes, people have concerns

about all sorts of areas.

0:47:110:47:14

Meanwhile west MPs Richard

Graham, David Warburton

0:47:140:47:15

and Michelle Donelan

are backing a charity

0:47:150:47:17

call for the Chancellor

to

0:47:170:47:18

put more cash into helping homeless

people rent a place to live.

0:47:180:47:25

For Jen in Devizes,

help can't come soon enough.

0:47:250:47:27

Where would you be without

the facilities like this and

0:47:270:47:29

charities like this?

0:47:290:47:32

Oh to be fair, I'd probably

end up being dead, to

0:47:320:47:35

be fair, I would have just gone over

the top but these places, they've

0:47:350:47:38

opened the doors to everybody

and they don't judge anybody, and

0:47:380:47:41

they're just fantastic.

0:47:410:47:46

Charities like this one

to rely on donations

0:47:460:47:53

as winter draws in they also need

coats, socks and sleeping bags.

0:47:530:47:55

Help from the community

as well as the

0:47:550:47:57

government.

0:47:570:48:00

Well, to discuss that I'm joined

by Hannah Gowsey from the

0:48:000:48:02

housing charity crisis thanks

for coming on the programme.

0:48:020:48:04

When you helped draft

this new law that is

0:48:040:48:06

coming in next year,

how much of a difference

0:48:060:48:09

will it make, do you think?

0:48:090:48:10

The new legislation marks

a transformation of the homelessness

0:48:100:48:12

legislation in England.

0:48:120:48:14

When the new legislation

comes in, thousands more

0:48:140:48:16

people will be eligible for

assistance at a much, much earlier

0:48:160:48:18

point so in principle the

legislation will go a long way to

0:48:180:48:21

help resolving homelessness

but of course we do need to make

0:48:210:48:24

sure that authorities are properly

resourced

0:48:240:48:25

to meet the new duties

and that is why ahead of the budget

0:48:250:48:28

we are calling on the government

to invest

0:48:280:48:30

a further £31 million

in help to rent schemes.

0:48:300:48:36

And have you had any indication

that that might actually happen?

0:48:360:48:39

So we don't have any indication

ahead of the budget as to

0:48:390:48:43

whether or not will be included.

0:48:430:48:45

But what I would say is that

government has made firm commitments

0:48:450:48:48

to tackle homelessness.

0:48:480:48:51

They have put a lot

of support behind the

0:48:510:48:53

homeless reduction act,

they've also pledged

0:48:530:48:54

to halve rough sleeping

by

0:48:540:48:55

2022, and end it all together

by 2027, so by supporting

0:48:550:48:58

the help to rent projects and

including them in the budget they

0:48:580:49:01

would be helping to meet their own

commitments on this.

0:49:010:49:04

What I would say though

is that we obviously have

0:49:040:49:11

no guarantee that this

is going to be in the

0:49:110:49:13

budget and that is why

we

0:49:130:49:15

are asking members

of the public to price

0:49:150:49:17

to the Chancellor ahead

of the

0:49:170:49:18

budget on the 22nd of November

and ask them to include

0:49:180:49:21

this and you can do that

by going to our website, we

0:49:210:49:24

have a very easy letter that

you can just fill in.

0:49:240:49:27

OK, thank you for that!

0:49:270:49:29

And I will come back to you if I can

a little bit later on.

0:49:290:49:32

James, the number of homeless has

0:49:320:49:34

doubled whilst the Tories

have been on duty.

0:49:340:49:38

Well, I very much welcome this

new bill brought in by my

0:49:380:49:41

friend Bob Blackman,

the Conservative MP for Harrow West.

0:49:410:49:43

It was a member's bill

in the government that

0:49:430:49:45

then adopted it and

0:49:460:49:51

they have now put behind

it £75 million already

0:49:510:49:53

and have promised

a

0:49:530:49:54

lot more money to come to help local

authorities with these extra

0:49:540:49:57

burdens, so it is a good bill.

0:49:570:49:59

But of course one

single person sleeping

0:49:590:50:01

outdoors is a scandal.

0:50:010:50:02

I'm very worried locally

particularly by the

0:50:020:50:03

ex-military, an awful lot of

veterans who can't find a home and

0:50:030:50:06

they are sleeping rough,

particularly around this area and

0:50:060:50:10

also in London and elsewhere,

and we have defined

0:50:100:50:12

way of helping them

in

0:50:120:50:13

particular.

0:50:130:50:14

The big worry often is

that the government says it will do

0:50:140:50:17

something and then

doesn't fully fund it

0:50:170:50:19

so it puts the pressure

on

0:50:190:50:20

the local authorities

and they have to cut

0:50:200:50:22

something else in order

to

0:50:220:50:23

make it happen.

0:50:230:50:27

Of course, we already have

a statutory obligation to look after

0:50:270:50:30

the homeless, that is part of

the government's job and always has

0:50:300:50:33

been.

0:50:330:50:35

This is piling on extra duties

to intervene 56 days

0:50:350:50:37

before someone is made homeless?

0:50:370:50:38

That's right.

0:50:380:50:39

They are trying to avoid

you becoming homeless and

0:50:390:50:42

they're all kinds

different homeless people.

0:50:420:50:43

Varying from the people who may

be suffering from drug

0:50:430:50:45

problems...

0:50:460:50:47

But it's the money, James,

we know the problems.

0:50:470:50:49

It's the money.

0:50:490:50:50

So everyone wants more

money all the time.

0:50:500:50:52

But the problem is burying

from all sorts of people

0:50:520:50:54

who've got real sickness, alcohol

problems, ex-military, these kind

0:50:540:50:56

of...

0:50:560:50:57

They aren't all the same and each

one has to be treated

0:50:570:51:00

separately, and local authorities

of the people that can do that.

0:51:000:51:03

That is why the government

has put up £75

0:51:030:51:05

million to help them do it.

0:51:050:51:06

Molly, this is a problem

I guess across Europe.

0:51:060:51:09

You have spent a lot of time

in Brussels and Strasbourg.

0:51:090:51:11

Do you see people

sleeping rough there?

0:51:110:51:13

There are definitely people sleeping

rough and people begging in most

0:51:130:51:15

European countries

and in many cases it's

0:51:150:51:17

often refugees, that's

0:51:170:51:18

certainly the case in Belgium.

0:51:180:51:19

But just to

0:51:190:51:20

come back to what James was saying.

0:51:200:51:22

He neatly sidestepped your question

about why this has doubled,

0:51:220:51:25

why this problem has greatly

increased under the Tories but it is

0:51:250:51:27

indeed a result of all be spending

cuts and also the welfare cap.

0:51:270:51:30

Is it?

0:51:310:51:32

Yes, I mean, the welfare cap is

absolutely crucial here because if

0:51:320:51:34

you are an housing benefit and it

did is cut you cannot afford to pay

0:51:340:51:38

your rent you are made homeless.

0:51:380:51:39

That is the beginning of that.

0:51:390:51:41

There are lots of complex

issues you would

0:51:410:51:43

accept, there's

addiction, there's...

0:51:430:51:44

As mental health, there's

relationship breakdown, the whole

0:51:440:51:46

lot.

0:51:460:51:47

The housing charities

agree that the most

0:51:470:51:49

significant cause of

this is

0:51:490:51:50

when the government,

the Tory government,

0:51:500:51:51

as part of its cuts,

introduced the cap on welfare

0:51:510:51:54

benefits...

0:51:540:51:55

It's a shame to make

it party political.

0:51:550:51:57

It's not a party political matter.

0:51:570:51:58

It is a party political

matter, because YOU have

0:51:580:52:02

been cutting welfare.

matter, because YOU have

0:52:020:52:03

There are of course

more beds available in

0:52:030:52:05

hostels today than there are people.

0:52:050:52:07

210 is very insignificant

by comparison

0:52:070:52:08

to the number of beds in hostels.

0:52:080:52:10

These people are not

unable to go to hostels,

0:52:100:52:12

they don't wish to do so.

0:52:120:52:13

That's what we have to look into,

that's to do with mental health,

0:52:130:52:17

it's to do with drugs...

0:52:170:52:18

It's not Labour or

Conservative, I think

0:52:180:52:19

that's just wrong to...

0:52:190:52:20

Let's just think about

what we're talking about

0:52:200:52:22

here.

0:52:220:52:23

We are talking about children,

families, who cannot afford to

0:52:230:52:26

cannot afford to...

0:52:260:52:27

No, we're talking

about rough sleepers.

0:52:270:52:28

Rough sleepers.

0:52:280:52:29

It's rough sleepers.

0:52:290:52:30

Hang on a second.

0:52:300:52:31

This brings me

onto my next question.

0:52:310:52:33

Where are these homes

going to be found?

0:52:330:52:35

Well, of course we're

talking here about rough

0:52:350:52:37

sleepers, we're not talking

about homeless people.

0:52:370:52:39

We're talking about people sleeping

outdoors in the West

0:52:390:52:41

Country, and they are the worst

people we really have

0:52:410:52:43

to do something about.

0:52:430:52:44

As I say there are more hostel

places available than...

0:52:440:52:47

So when the government

put a cap on welfare

0:52:470:52:49

payments, and particularly

on housing benefit, there was a

0:52:490:52:51

catastrophic fall off in the number

of social housing homes being built.

0:52:510:52:54

What is the cap?

I think it is £20,000.

0:52:540:52:56

That's a lot of money.

0:52:560:52:57

That's not just housing

benefit, that's the

0:52:570:52:59

whole welfare cap.

0:52:590:53:00

Housing benefit is

just a part of that.

0:53:000:53:02

So then there was no

incentive to carry on

0:53:020:53:04

building, it was simply stopped

building social housing because they

0:53:040:53:06

didn't think people

would be able to pay

0:53:060:53:08

enough to afford it

and that is

0:53:080:53:10

the rub.

0:53:100:53:11

Is it still the green policy

to build 500,000 new social

0:53:110:53:14

last.

It didn't get us in amess at all.

0:53:140:53:16

All if you recall, Evan Davis said

the policy was quite right.

0:53:160:53:19

Your leader had no

idea how much it would

0:53:190:53:21

cost.

0:53:210:53:22

She had a cold that day, she

couldn't remember the numbers but

0:53:220:53:25

Evan Davis actually confirmed

that it is actually fine.

0:53:250:53:27

Do you remember the numbers now?

0:53:270:53:28

We're not making that proposal

now because we're not

0:53:280:53:30

in a general election period.

No, it hasn't gone.

0:53:300:53:33

The point is that funding

will come as a result of

0:53:330:53:35

councils being able to borrow to

build and that is worth their while

0:53:350:53:38

because at the moment

they are having to pay an awful lot

0:53:380:53:41

of money to keep people in bed

and breakfasts

0:53:410:53:43

who wouldn't be much more

efficiently invested into into safe,

0:53:430:53:46

warm homes for people to live in.

0:53:460:53:48

OK.

In this weather, we all need that.

0:53:480:53:49

Thank you very much, and Hannah,

in London, thank you very

0:53:490:53:52

much, too.

0:53:520:53:55

We are 16 months on from the Brexit

referendum and still very

0:53:550:53:58

little is clear about what it

will mean for any of us.

0:53:580:54:00

But there has been one

significant effect.

0:54:000:54:02

The fall in the value of the pound.

0:54:020:54:05

It has meant opportunities.

0:54:050:54:10

For some Businesses in the west

but some problems for

0:54:100:54:12

others as Martin Jones reports.

0:54:130:54:14

The last of the summer wine.

0:54:140:54:15

The grape harvest coming

to an end in this

0:54:150:54:17

Gloucestershire winery.

0:54:170:54:18

Pickers are in high demand.

0:54:180:54:19

These are from Bulgaria

working so hard they don't

0:54:190:54:22

stop too long to chat.

0:54:220:54:23

Is it good money working in Britain?

0:54:230:54:27

Depends.

0:54:270:54:32

It's good for us, compared

to here it is low standard.

0:54:340:54:37

Is this your first time in England?

0:54:370:54:41

Yeah, it's my first time.

0:54:410:54:42

What do you think?

0:54:420:54:43

It's very beautiful here.

0:54:430:54:44

But in Bulgaria is more beautiful.

0:54:440:54:51

But the winery needs

Mohammed to overcome the

0:54:510:54:53

beauty of his homeland because they

want him back next year.

0:54:530:54:56

And more like him.

0:54:560:55:00

We wanted to have 12,

perhaps 14 people to come and help

0:55:000:55:03

us additionally

to our regular labour.

0:55:030:55:05

We have found that we rarely

were able to achieve those numbers,

0:55:050:55:09

they have been leaving in droves

to go to Germany, to work for euros,

0:55:090:55:14

and they aren't making the money

here that they did with the exchange

0:55:140:55:17

rate of the pound.

0:55:170:55:25

From the vineyard the grapes

are processed on site

0:55:250:55:28

making a quarter of

a million bottles a year.

0:55:280:55:32

But in the wine world

that is just a dribble.

0:55:320:55:35

And it's all drunk here in the UK.

0:55:350:55:38

And since the referendum

costs have soared leaving

0:55:380:55:40

a sour taste.

0:55:400:55:42

For us at the moment the fall

in the pound has meant the

0:55:420:55:45

difference in that what we import

has become more expensive.

0:55:450:55:48

Bottles, the label,

paper we print the labels

0:55:480:55:50

on is imported, the capsules,

foils for our sparkling wines, so

0:55:500:55:52

any equipment that we want to buy.

0:55:520:56:02

The value of the pound slumped

straight after the Brexit vote and

0:56:090:56:12

has never recovered.

0:56:120:56:13

It means British

pounds by less abroad.

0:56:130:56:14

Holidays, computers, food and drink

have all become more expensive.

0:56:140:56:17

But if you have foreign cash buying

British has become cheaper.

0:56:170:56:19

But down the road in

Somerset one farm has

0:56:190:56:21

seen a Brexit boost.

0:56:220:56:23

At Sharp Park near Street,

Roger Saul grows spelt,

0:56:230:56:25

a type of ancient grain,

regaining popularity thanks

0:56:250:56:27

to its supposedly health benefits.

0:56:270:56:28

The fall in the pound has

recently helped Roger land

0:56:280:56:30

a big contract with

a British supermarket.

0:56:300:56:39

We work with Waitrose, Sainsbury's,

Marks & Spencer, all of

0:56:390:56:41

those teams are looking very hard

I would suggest at the moment to see

0:56:410:56:45

what they can do in Britain.

0:56:450:56:48

And it is not just

because of national

0:56:480:56:50

pride.

0:56:500:56:52

The lower exchange rate means his

Somerset grains are finally

0:56:520:56:55

competitive with those from abroad.

0:56:550:56:58

It has opened up some big doors for

us and that is largely because of

0:56:580:57:02

that same competition

that was 20% cheaper now

0:57:020:57:04

being the same price

as

0:57:040:57:05

me so I would love to say I have now

a level playing field.

0:57:050:57:08

Spelt is a far cry

from Roger's business

0:57:080:57:10

roots.

0:57:100:57:14

He founded fashion brand Mulberry,

selling British handbags

0:57:140:57:15

all round the world.

0:57:160:57:18

And Brexit could finally

mean he is able to sew

0:57:180:57:20

up more international

deals for spelt.

0:57:200:57:24

So, from the export side

the opportunity is there.

0:57:240:57:26

However it is probably

early days because most

0:57:260:57:28

people are looking and seeing will

the currency stay where it is as a

0:57:280:57:31

country to imports to,

but they are definitely

0:57:310:57:33

out there looking.

0:57:330:57:34

But even the one

change we have already

0:57:340:57:36

seen since the referendum

may not last.

0:57:360:57:41

The pound could go

back up of course.

0:57:410:57:43

Predicting our Brexit

0:57:430:57:44

future will sort the

wheat from the chaff.

0:57:440:57:46

Maybe, but we'll have a bash.

0:57:460:57:51

Molly, it seems sort of swings

and roundabouts, really, doesn't it,

0:57:510:57:54

some winners, some losers.

0:57:540:58:00

That will be the story

of Brexit, isn't it?

0:58:000:58:02

At the moment we are

able to have our cake

0:58:020:58:04

and eat it because the pound has

fallen, Brexit hasn't happened so we

0:58:040:58:07

aren't facing the tariffs we will be

facing, so if we take the vineyard,

0:58:070:58:11

we saw from the NFU that there

is a 30% failure in terms

0:58:110:58:14

of the number of people needed

to pick the crops

0:58:140:58:16

that that is one effect

of Brexit we are already

0:58:160:58:19

seeing but as you saw,

Roger Saul, the person who is

0:58:190:58:21

benefiting at the moment,

exporting his brains,

0:58:210:58:23

he will be facing a 50% tariff

on those grains after we have

0:58:230:58:26

left the European Union

so that is much more,

0:58:260:58:28

they will be much more expensive

and that will outweigh the

0:58:280:58:31

fall in the pound.

0:58:310:58:35

It's unlikely, isn't it,

because then Britain would

0:58:350:58:37

impose these tariffs

on stuff coming in, to.

0:58:370:58:39

Well, it depends what kind of deal

we get but if we have the

0:58:390:58:42

hard Brexit deal that people like

James are calling for it will be 50%

0:58:420:58:45

tariffs.

0:58:450:58:46

That is WTO rules.

0:58:460:58:47

No?

0:58:470:58:48

Let's hear you then.

0:58:480:58:49

We will have a deal.

0:58:490:58:51

I didn't say that.

0:58:510:58:52

You said something

along those lines.

0:58:520:58:53

You are still throwing me asparagus!

0:58:530:58:55

I agree with you entirely,

absolutely right.

0:58:550:59:05

Who picks the asparagus,

that's my question.

0:59:050:59:07

Look, you are right in saying that

of the Europeans export

0:59:070:59:09

more to us than we export them.

0:59:090:59:11

Therefore if there would be a 50%

tariff on grains we would have a 50%

0:59:110:59:15

tariff on BMW cars and there would

be widespread unemployment across

0:59:150:59:17

Germany.

0:59:170:59:18

Of course there will be a trade deal

up the intelligent people

0:59:180:59:21

would not do it.

0:59:210:59:22

The important thing

about the currency is that at the

0:59:220:59:25

moment people working

in tourism and all sorts

0:59:250:59:27

of other industries

in the

0:59:270:59:28

west are doing extraordinarily well,

because they can export of the pound

0:59:280:59:31

has been weaker, and we are

discouraging imports which is very

0:59:310:59:33

good for the balance of trade.

0:59:330:59:35

I quite like the pound at $1.32,

but if Molly doesn't I wonder

0:59:350:59:38

what rate you think the pound

should be at.

0:59:380:59:40

Oh gosh, as an economist I wouldn't

dream of predicting that.

0:59:400:59:43

But what is the correct level?

0:59:430:59:44

What is the correct level?

0:59:440:59:46

This is a completely

artificial situation.

0:59:460:59:47

Whatever happens when

we get in to the deal,

0:59:470:59:49

there will certainly be conditions

attached to that and what we hear

0:59:490:59:52

from the Conservatives I am

afraid there's just

0:59:520:59:54

arm waving, oh, well,

we

0:59:540:59:55

know the Germans will do this.

0:59:550:59:57

We actually need

to have a clear sense

0:59:570:59:59

of what is really

0:59:591:00:00

coming and in the area

of food and farming...

1:00:001:00:02

Well, we will do!

1:00:021:00:03

We've been waiting a year now

for the report for the plan, the

1:00:031:00:06

2020 vision for food and farming.

1:00:061:00:08

And it's been pulled again and now

we're not going to have one.

1:00:081:00:11

Food and farming...

1:00:111:00:12

We import a quarter of our food

directly from the EU.

1:00:121:00:14

We need to know what

we will be eating

1:00:141:00:17

after Brexit.

1:00:171:00:18

James, I just want to return

to these government studies,

1:00:181:00:20

the 58 government studies

on the impact of Brexit.

1:00:201:00:22

And the initial refusal

until they have been forced

1:00:221:00:24

to by the House of Commons to

publish those, Brexit is good news

1:00:241:00:27

for us then why wouldn't that

information be out for all of us to

1:00:271:00:31

read and enjoy?

1:00:311:00:32

Well, the Labour Party

used a Parliamentary

1:00:321:00:34

technicality on Thursday to insist

that we should release the impact

1:00:341:00:36

assessments, and we have

now agreed to do so,

1:00:361:00:38

we didn't vote against it,

the Labour Party voted in favour of

1:00:381:00:41

it, we agreed to do

so although we were slightly

1:00:411:00:44

embarrassed by the way it has

involved Buckingham Palace

1:00:441:00:46

and the Queen in what should be

a political matter and that is quite

1:00:461:00:49

wrong.

1:00:491:00:50

However, we are going to produce

these documents, a bit

1:00:501:00:53

redacted for the very

simple reason that we

1:00:531:00:54

are right in the middle

of a

1:00:541:00:56

negotiation and if I'm negotiating

to buy your house and are suddenly

1:00:561:00:59

produce a document that

says I have a lot more

1:00:591:01:01

money than I thought

I

1:01:011:01:03

had or a lot less money than

I thought I had, that affects that

1:01:031:01:06

negotiation.

1:01:061:01:07

OK, Molly, just come

back on that one.

1:01:071:01:09

Well, I've been trying

to get hold of these

1:01:091:01:11

documents since April.

1:01:111:01:12

I don't understand

why the government's

1:01:121:01:14

concealing from us what the impacts

of Brexit will be, I don't think it

1:01:141:01:17

satisfactory to just send them down

one coda to a small number of people

1:01:171:01:20

on a committee.

1:01:201:01:21

I think we all need to know

what the government thinks

1:01:211:01:24

Brexit's going to do

for our livelihoods.

1:01:241:01:26

Even if it damages...

1:01:261:01:27

Even if it did damage

the negotiation?

1:01:271:01:28

Well, I don't except that it's

kind of a poker game.

1:01:281:01:31

We're not playing a poker game

here, we should be...

1:01:311:01:33

White, well we are, really.

1:01:331:01:35

No, we're not!

1:01:351:01:36

It's not that kind

of arrangement at all.

1:01:361:01:38

As if the Europeans

don't know what the

1:01:381:01:39

impact of leaving the

single market will be.

1:01:391:01:41

Of course they do!

1:01:411:01:42

This is much more about saving

the government's blushes than it is

1:01:421:01:45

anything to do with

the negotiations.

1:01:451:01:47

OK, thank you.

1:01:471:01:48

Well, let's have a look

at the rest of

1:01:481:01:50

this week's political

news in just 60 Seconds.

1:01:501:01:52

Council leaders in the west

promised £35 million for new

1:01:521:01:54

high-tech industries,

including virtual reality and a lab

1:01:541:01:56

developing more efficient engines.

1:01:561:01:57

They say the cash will

bring thousands of new

1:01:571:01:59

jobs.

1:01:591:02:00

The west's new Metro Mayor came

under pressure over housing.

1:02:001:02:03

Tim Bowles pledged to protect land

in south Gloucestershire from

1:02:031:02:05

house-building but plans released

this week included controversial

1:02:051:02:07

developments.

1:02:071:02:08

The governments from before

councils means that I'm not

1:02:081:02:10

involved on that process.

1:02:101:02:11

Also under pressure

Bristol businessmen Aaron

1:02:111:02:13

Banks.

1:02:131:02:14

He is being investigated over

the way he has spent money in the EU

1:02:141:02:17

referendum campaign.

1:02:171:02:18

He says claims he channelled

money from Russia are

1:02:181:02:20

nonsense, and used some

ruder words as well.

1:02:201:02:22

And in Stroud, the local council

was left red faced after

1:02:221:02:25

revealing it wanted green power firm

Eco-tricity to run the town's

1:02:251:02:28

routes.

1:02:281:02:29

The problem is that no one

was supposed to know, so keep it

1:02:291:02:32

under your hat.

1:02:321:02:42

Yes, we won't tell anyone!

1:02:471:02:49

And that is all from us this week.

1:02:491:02:51

My thanks to my guests,

James Gray and Molly Scott Cato.

1:02:511:02:54

Don't forget you can

follow us on Twitter

1:02:541:02:56

for the latest updates

and you can watch

1:02:561:02:57

the show back again

on the

1:02:571:03:02

iPlayer if you should wish to!

1:03:021:03:03

But now, let's get

back to London and

1:03:031:03:05

Sarah, who is waiting for us.

1:03:051:03:06

to support.

1:03:071:03:08

All right, and at that point

we have to end it there.

1:03:081:03:11

My thanks to Rosena and Andrew,

and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:111:03:13

It's been a tricky

week for Theresa May -

1:03:141:03:16

again, you might think.

1:03:161:03:17

She's lost a Cabinet minister

and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:171:03:19

which did little for party unity,

to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:191:03:23

vote on Brexit and yet more reports

of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:231:03:26

this time apparently over housing.

1:03:261:03:27

So, is the Prime Minister's time

in office going with a bang

1:03:271:03:30

or more of a whimper?

1:03:301:03:31

Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:311:03:32

and the entirely unscientific

Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:321:03:34

to Conservative-held Surrey,

to find out.

1:03:341:03:36

ALL:

Three, two, one.

1:03:361:03:40

# Ignite the light

and let it shine...#

1:03:401:03:46

It's a tale of lit fuses, plots,

conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:461:03:50

but enough of the recent goings

on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:501:03:53

it's firework night here

in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:531:03:57

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

1:03:571:04:00

Yes or no?

1:04:001:04:01

# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:011:04:06

With all the scandals in Government

at the moment

1:04:061:04:08

and Brexit seems to be dragging on

a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:081:04:12

So, at the moment, I don't think

she is in control.

1:04:121:04:15

She's too many people sniping

at her back, really.

1:04:181:04:21

Do you think Theresa

May's in control?

1:04:211:04:23

I think she's in control.

1:04:231:04:24

She's in a good job

having a tough time.

1:04:241:04:26

No, I don't.

1:04:261:04:27

I think she's a mess.

1:04:271:04:29

Even when you read her body language

when she's being interviewed

1:04:291:04:31

by people, she doesn't

seem like she's in control.

1:04:311:04:34

I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:341:04:38

I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:401:04:44

I do think she's struggling but,

I still hope, still think she has

1:04:441:04:48

a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:481:04:51

The Queen is England's role.

1:04:511:04:53

It's her birth right.

1:04:531:04:55

She is England's role

of this country.

1:04:551:04:58

I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:04:581:05:01

I don't think there's anyone

who could do a better job.

1:05:011:05:05

I think she's had a bit of

a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:051:05:08

I think she could have done better.

1:05:081:05:09

The money's not going

to where it needs to go.

1:05:091:05:12

I think she should resign, really.

1:05:121:05:13

I feel a bit sorry

for her, actually.

1:05:131:05:16

I think she's been witch-hunted

a little bit.

1:05:161:05:18

She's doing her best.

1:05:181:05:21

With everything that's

going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:211:05:24

moment, I think the Conservative

Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:241:05:27

Very disappointed.

1:05:271:05:29

Well, you get bickering in all parts

not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:291:05:35

And that's just sort

of par for the course.

1:05:351:05:38

But I'm sure she'll

hold everybody together

1:05:381:05:40

despite the current difficulties.

1:05:401:05:42

The Tories weren't in control

when they had the referendum

1:05:421:05:45

in the first place for the euro.

1:05:451:05:47

We've had two years

of complete chaos.

1:05:471:05:50

I don't see an end to it.

1:05:501:05:53

Well, I seem to have

acquired a few new friends.

1:05:531:05:55

The oohs and ahs are

over and so the moodbox

1:05:551:05:59

and the result is...

1:05:591:06:02

No.

1:06:021:06:04

The majority of people

here in Guildford

1:06:041:06:05

don't think Theresa May

is in control.

1:06:051:06:08

CHEERING

1:06:081:06:12

That was Ellie with the entirely

unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:121:06:14

to Bushy Hill Junior School

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:141:06:21

Let's put the Sorbol question to our

panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:211:06:26

seasoned Westminster watchers. Is

Theresa May in control of her

1:06:261:06:29

Government at the moment or is all

of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:291:06:34

swimming around loosening her grip?

Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:341:06:38

All Prime Ministers have a degree of

control. They retain the power much

1:06:381:06:45

tat wrongage as we saw with her

reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:451:06:49

her MPs but she did it. You can't be

fully in control of these situations

1:06:491:06:55

in effectively what is a hung

Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:551:06:58

in the election she would have the

authority to do what she wanted. She

1:06:581:07:02

could float over something like

this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:021:07:06

say she's perfectly suited for it,

the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:061:07:10

goer, to sort it out. It is much

more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:101:07:13

think she will be able to get a full

grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:131:07:17

things that need to happen that will

happen. I remember with back to

1:07:171:07:22

basics and John Major, that equally

vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:221:07:26

basics about? It was still running

months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:261:07:31

minister having an affair. This is

different. I can see it will be

1:07:311:07:35

impossible for her to fully get to

grips with it.

Does it provide an

1:07:351:07:39

opportunity for Theresa May to be

seen to be taking really serious

1:07:391:07:43

action, trying to root out a bad

culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:431:07:46

get some political credit for it?

That opportunity was available to

1:07:461:07:50

her all of last week and she hasn't

taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:501:07:56

is the near complete breakdown in

discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:561:07:59

Tory Party. It is extraordinary you

have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:07:591:08:04

not supporting their colleagues.

Ministers and former ministers

1:08:041:08:08

giving interviews in which they slag

off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:081:08:12

an absolute unholy mess. There is no

sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:121:08:17

has any particular solution. I think

we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:171:08:20

her in terms of finding a solution.

How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:201:08:24

like this where you're talking about

apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:241:08:33

retrospective examination of

potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:331:08:36

longer too historic for somebody to

dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:361:08:39

or may not have happened to them. It

is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:391:08:43

being battered around by events.

Where does this story go next?

I

1:08:431:08:50

think the whip's office on every

party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:501:08:54

Democrats, SNP all have their own

whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:541:08:57

be the place of it really. This is

because, where do we draw the line?

1:08:571:09:03

Going forward what mechanisms are

put in place to top this helping

1:09:031:09:06

again. To take allegations

seriously, report them and

1:09:061:09:10

investigate them independently. Or

is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:101:09:15

into the past retrospective, who

knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:151:09:20

Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow

Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:201:09:25

the Labour Party leader know about

Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:251:09:29

promoted him? Theresa May is unable

to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:291:09:34

simply too weak. I asked this of

Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:341:09:39

not more front-foot the on this.

They said they would be if they

1:09:391:09:42

possibly could be. She's running a

minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:421:09:46

seen to be going after a witch-hunt

on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:461:09:51

goes on. Enof thebly what the whips

new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:511:10:00

knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did

the same thing on Andrew Marr.

They

1:10:001:10:09

are being precise about the fact

they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:091:10:14

Newton said she heard no allegations

about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:141:10:18

in charge of rather than rumours

about any other Tories.

Amber Rudd

1:10:181:10:25

say, I do not recognise the more

lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:251:10:30

less lurid once? So, this smells

very, very bad indeed.

Jeremy

1:10:301:10:34

Corbyn's going to have to answer

some of these questions as well?

1:10:341:10:40

Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red

herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:401:10:45

vote out for the Government

fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:451:10:47

They are not there, it is one of the

problems. They are not there to be

1:10:471:10:51

moral guides to these MPs. They are

there to win votes for the

1:10:511:10:56

Government or the opposition if that

becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:561:11:00

with MPs to make sure they get out

and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:001:11:04

virtually everything. But whether

they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:041:11:09

guard yawns in these situations, I

don't think they were. It was not

1:11:091:11:12

part of their job. Maybe you need

moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:121:11:16

whips.

Normally, less than

three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:161:11:22

what we'd been talking about.

Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:221:11:24

that's set for November 22nd, is

that an opportunity for the

1:11:241:11:28

Government to seize back control of

the story?

Philip Hammond may be

1:11:281:11:32

glad we're not spending too much

time talking about the budget. It

1:11:321:11:36

should be an opportunity for the

Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:361:11:40

a line under all of this. I think

one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:401:11:44

of this so-called scandal for the

Government to manage is knowing

1:11:441:11:48

quite how long it will run. In the

normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:481:11:52

steam after a couple of weeks. But

there are so many potential gayses

1:11:521:11:56

that could come out, it might run

longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:561:12:01

expenses scandal. But there is an

opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:011:12:04

the' again da. I just don't think

Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:041:12:09

he's a very caution Chancellor. At

the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:091:12:13

Theresa May's leadership is so weak

it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:131:12:18

do anything particularly dram attic

why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:181:12:23

budget where they will be hoping not

to make any mistakes.

You say there

1:12:231:12:28

is disagreement in the Cabinet about

what should be in the budget?

1:12:281:12:33

Disagreement between the Chancellor

and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:331:12:39

witch-hunt is hiding a huge story

which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:391:12:43

between Number Ten and number 11.

Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:431:12:47

bear to be in the same room with

each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:471:12:51

in the budget. It is coming down to

housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:511:12:55

be the centrepiece of the budget.

They have to get more houses built.

1:12:551:13:01

Philip Hammond wands that bee

deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:011:13:06

are borrow up to 50 billion

merchandise more for the Government

1:13:061:13:09

to build for themselves.

1:13:091:13:10

That's all for today.

1:13:101:13:12

There's no Sunday Politics

next weekend

1:13:121:13:14

while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:141:13:15

but I'll be back here at 11am

on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:151:13:19

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:191:13:23

Sarah Smith and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. The programme includes an interview with shadow defence secretary Nia Griffith. Plus former MP George Galloway and journalist and author Peter Hitchens discuss the Russian revolution. Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott, Tom Newton Dunn are on the political panel.


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