05/11/2017 Sunday Politics West

Good morning, everyone,

and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

I'm Sarah Smith.

And this is your guide to everything

that's happening in the world

of politics this Sunday morning.

On today's show:

Theresa May's right-hand man

Damian Green has denied claims that

police found pornography

on a computer in his office in 2008.

He says the allegations by a former

police chief are "political smears."

With claims of sexual harassment

at Westminster growing by the day,

can either Theresa May

or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

to grips with a scandal

threatening to engulf

the entire political class?

We'll ask a minister and senior

member of the Shadow Cabinet.

And some on the left of politics

have been gathering to mark 100

In the West:

Life on the streets,

a new law offers more help

to people sleeping rough,

but will be government put in enough

cash to make a difference?

So there's plenty of

explosive political news

to get you in the mood

for bonfire night -

and with me as usual,

three journalists who know quite

a bit about parliamentary plots -

if rather less about

gunpowder and treason.

It's Tom Newton Dunn,

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

So what are the big political

stories making the news this Sunday?

Well, the papers are brimming

with further allegations against MPs

in the sexual harassment scandal,

which according to one newspaper has

left Westminster frozen in fear.

First Secretary of State Damian

Green, already under

investigation over allegations -

which he strongly denies -

of propositioning a female activist,

is the subject of new claims that

police discovered pornography

on a computer in his Westminster

office in 2008.

Mr Green denies the allegation,

made by former senior

police officer Bob Quick,

saying it is "completely untrue,"

and adding that he is the victim

of disreputable "political smears."

Michael Fallon, who resigned

as Defence Secretary this week

over his past behaviour,

is also subject to fresh claims

he lunged at a female journalist

in 2003 after a lunch.

Labour is facing questions

over its handling of sexual

misconduct allegations.

This morning Shadow Cabinet minister

Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew

about alleged misconduct by MP

Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted

to the Shadow Cabinet.

And there is a reminder that normal

political life goes on,

with reports that the Cabinet has

agreed to put housing at the heart

of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

Well, let's hear from

Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

she was on the Andrew Marr Show

earlier talking about the claims

against her Cabinet colleague Damian

Green.

Absolutely not. I think it is

something that will take place in

terms of clearing out Westminster of

that sort of behaviour, and I think

that Westminster afterwards,

including the Government, will be

better for it. When we are confident

that men and women can work any

respectful environment and people on

the receiving end of abuse of power

can come forward. That will be a

positive thing.

Let's see what our panel make of

this fairly explosive week. Good

morning to all of you. Starting with

you, Steve. Not a party political

issue but the Tories are in

Government. How much harder for them

is it an Labour?

Always harder when

you are in Government because it

makes governing almost impossible.

And the wider context is a Prime

Minister who lost her overall

majority a few months ago and

actually that is the context of

everything. When you are having to

deal with the scandal of such

unpredictability, where the

terms are so imprecise, it is a

"lunge", a resignation issue, to use

that term, and nightmare. I don't

think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

bring down governments, but it makes

governing for Theresa May a form of

political health.

Isabel Oakeshott,

Damian Green has denied all

allegations made against him, but

there are more this morning. He is

being investigated by the Cabinet

Office at the moment. If Theresa May

were to effectively lose her Deputy

Prime Minister, has serious without

the?

I think very serious indeed. I

think it is very significant and

strange he was not defended in the

Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

clip we saw today, she didn't say I

am certain he will survive, and I am

beginning to feel that Damian may

not survive this. We don't know

whether it is the last of the

allegations that may come out in

relation to him. It seems to me that

the allegations were previously of a

rather minor order, but this seems

to have escalated. And I think one

of the big problems for Theresa May,

and there are the many at the

moment, for months we have been

saying that this Government has no

bandwidth to do anything except

Brexit and right now she can't even

do Brexit. What is the point of it

all?

It is important to make clear

not only that Damian Green denies

all of these allegations, but the

computer mentioned was in a shared

office so there is no reason it

would definitely be his

# No guarantee it would definitely

be his. But we have had two MPs on

television this morning, Anna

Soubry, saying he should stand down.

There is an awful lot going on here.

It is not just a pretty awful sexual

harassment scandal. There are also

without a doubt MPs, police

officers, going about settling

scores. For me I have to say for our

pretty discredited police officer

Bob Quick, to make accusations

against serving Cabinet minister, to

suggest he should go for extreme

pornography on computers he may or

may not have known, it may be

extremely distasteful but it is

alarming for democracy to have

ex-police officers like this coming

in and trying to play with

democracy. Some politicians are also

meeting claims, some for the right

reasons to get the allegations out

there and so on but others for their

own agendas and all of this puts the

Prime Minister in an unbelievably

hard situation. I agree with Steve

and Isabel, she desperately needs

two show leadership in all this, but

every way she could turn there are

incredible downfalls, people blaming

her for trying to get to the bottom

of all this. It is very people who

she is relying on for her

leadership, the very Tory MPs the

support she can't lose.

It is not

just the Tory party and of course

Jeremy Corbyn will be making a

speech later today where this will

inevitably and there are accusations

about how the senior leadership in

the Labour Party have handled this.

What about that situation?

Yes, but

the Government is much harder

because you are meant to be doing

10,000 other things at the same

time. This is about a deregulated

work environment. For all those who

say, I hate the way Britain is too

regulated, this is what happens in a

deregulated work environment. The

House of Commons has no HR or

whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

actually don't have much power but

they do have power over who the

point and how to treat them. I think

this is the way forward in terms of

the practical outcome, but it is

across the political spectrum.

But

it is unclear what it will be. Can

the party sort this out?

I'm not

sure I entirely agree, Steve, you

cannot regulate all human

interaction and a lot of these

stories have been about interactions

between politicians and journalists

alike, who have gone out for lunch,

chosen to drink, presumably to

create an informal atmosphere, and

at what point is a step towards

somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You

can't regulate that sort of thing.

Throughout the programme will come

back to some of these things and how

they might be regulated.

Now, the Home Secretary has

also today been talking

about what she calls the "moral

duty" of social media companies

to stop child sexual exploitation,

ahead of a meeting with her US

counterparts this week.

We're joined now by the Home Office

minister Sarah Newton -

she's in our Truro studio.

Thanks very much for coming in to

speak the first night. I want to

talk to you about the Government's

efforts to tackle child pornography,

but let's pick up on some of the

sexual harassment issues at

Westminster first. Two of your

parliamentary colleagues this

morning saying they think the first

Secretary of State Damian Green

should step down whilst being

investigated. Do you agree?

Look, he

has vigorously denied these

accusations, and the Cabinet Office

is investigating these accusations,

so we do have processes for when

ministers have these accusations

made against them so they are

properly investigated. And that is

what is going on at the moment.

Is

that process people can be confident

in? He is effectively being

investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one

of his colleagues.

This is a tried

and tested process that has stood

the test of time, and it is

important...

Has it? Surely what we

are learning is it has not stood the

test of time and that in fact

allegations like this have been

swept under the carpet and ignored

for years and years in Westminster,

exactly what we are learning right

now.

I think you are conflating two

things they are, and what we really

do need to do is look at the whole

range of allegations people have

been making, and make sure

Parliament is a safe place for

people to work, a respectful

environment for people who have been

subjected to harassment or bullying

or inappropriate behaviour, so that

they feel confident to come forward

knowing they will be listened to,

that there will be an open and

transparent and fair to everyone

concerned process for getting to the

bottom of it, and that is exactly

what the Prime Minister and the

Leader of the Cows have set out,

Prime Minister's meeting with all

the leaders of the parties tomorrow

to set out a proper process so we

can modernise the work environment

at Westminster -- leader of the

House have set out.

You think Damian

Green should remain in the Cabinet

well being investigated?

That will

be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

thinks the misdemeanours have a

basis, that he should stand aside,

that will be the recommendation. I

will not second the inquiry on what

Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.

You were

in the Whips' Office yourself for a

year. And much has been said this

week of the whips being in receipt

of a lot of information about bad

behaviour, and instead of reporting

it to authorities they were using it

as ammunition. Was that your

experience?

Absolutely not. I was at

the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

yes, I heard about the rumours of a

black spreadsheet, and I can

certainly say I never saw such a

thing. How I went about my business

as a whip is really twofold. It is

quite a technical job in many ways,

about of the Government through the

House, working with the House

authorities, the opposition. Also...

Did you ever hear rumours of these

people's bad behaviour?

Sorry?

Did

you ever hear rumours of MPs

misbehaving, sexual harassment,

allegations are that?

If anybody had

brought a complaint to me about the

behaviour of one of the MPs who were

in my flock, I would take that

really seriously, but bull-mac, that

didn't happen.

You said nobody

brought you a complaint. Did you

hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't

happen.

About the members of my

flock? Absolutely not.

Is that the

MPs you were specifically in charge

of?

I did not have that experience

at all.

Let's move on and talk about

the Home Secretary's trip to

Washington this week, where she will

urge tech companies to go further

and faster on online child abuse. We

have heard a lot from this

Government urging these companies to

do something. One specific ideas of

what they could do, do you have a

clear idea of what you are asking

from tech companies?

Absolutely

right. As you know, this horrendous

crime of child sexual exploitation

and grooming is constantly evolving

as the opportunities for the

perpetrators arise. They are now

using live streaming, different

sorts of platforms, which are

largely controlled by the big

companies in America. What we really

want them to do is to step up and

use their huge expertise, used the

huge money they have got, to help

find technological solutions to read

their sites and rid the opportunity

of these paedophiles to be able to

groom young people. We need the

politicians in America to exert

pressure, as well as other

companies, because these are global

problems. We are not going to solve

this problem in the UK alone. We

have made a lot of progress, working

with Facebook and other companies as

well, but we really need to keep one

step ahead of the technology, one

step ahead of the perpetrators, who

are using these opportunities to

commit horrendous crimes.

It was back in 2014 Theresa May for

the Internet companies to do more in

terms of child abuse online and we

have not seen significant action,

and it does not appear these kind of

calls from the Government actually

make difference.

Well, at the moment we are seeing

the police being able to make about

400 arrests per month, about 500

children being safeguarded. The

Government itself is investing a lot

of money in new technology like the

project Arachnid, and making sure

the police have the specialist

resources they need to go

undercover, and absolutely find

these perpetrators and bring them to

justice, but we do need to

constantly have the engagement and

support of the companies themselves

to invest in further technologies to

prevent this from happening. As you

say, we have made progress but we

need to see yet more.

Sarah Newton,

thank you very much for speaking to

us today.

Michael Fallon's decision

to resign this week,

saying his past conduct with women

fell short of the standard expected

of the Armed Forces, led

to something of a minor reshuffle.

And the Prime Minister took

Westminster by surprise

when she announced his replacement,

former Chief Whip and relative

newcomer to the ministerial

ranks, Gavin Williamson.

Here he is speaking on the day

of his appointment.

It's an immense privilege to have

been appointed Secretary

of State for Defence,

and what we need to be doing

is continuing to focus

on countering Daesh,

making sure that our national

security is at the forefront

of everything that we do,

and we have some of the world's

greatest armed services,

and it's such a privilege to be able

to work with them.

Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,

arrives at the Ministry of Defence

at a challenging time

for UK defence.

The Government has promised

an above-inflation increase

in spending every year

but the Ministry of Defence

is already committed to finding

£20 billion of savings

over the next ten years.

The Cabinet Office is currently

conducting a security review

which will look at military

capabilities and funding up to 2022,

while there are continuing

reports of shortages

of manpower and equipment.

And if Labour were to win power,

questions persist over

what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership

would mean for defence budget

and the traditional cornerstones

of UK defence policy

like Trident and Nato.

Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

secretary, Nia Griffith.

Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

secretary, Nia Griffith.

Let's talk about defence spending

first. Would Labour commit to the

same thing this Government has which

is an above inflation increase in

spending every year?

We've been

absolutely clear about that. First

and foremost we'd meet our

commitment of spending at least 2%

of GDP on defence as is our Nato

commitment and we would match the

Government's year-on-year 0.5%

increase above inflation. This is

really important. Labour's always

had a good strong track record of

spending on defence.

Jeremy Corbyn

seems to have a different view.

Speaking at a protest in 2010 he

said Labour wanted to fight all the

cuts except those in the Armed

Forces where we want to see a few

more cuts taking place. He doesn't

seem committed to defence spending?

In the manifesto for this year's

election, 2017, he and John

McDonnell have been absolutely clear

we support the exact words I've been

using now, at least 2% of the spend

of GDP spent on defence.

Jeremy

Corbyn's changed his mind on that?

He's been very clear about that and

it was in our manifesto this year.

You criticised the Government on

whether they meet their 2%

commitment on defence. You saying

they were fiddling the figures

because they were including

pensions. You would strip that out

and snake sure there's 2% spending

on defence which doesn't include

pensions?

Technically, the

Government would argue you are

allowed to include pensions by the

Nato rules. But we've been very

clear, really, when you're talking

about defence spending it should

mean defence. When you look at the

last year of the Labour Government

we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

very much committed to looking at

what we need in our defence budget

and looking to the problems they

have now where they can't meet the

commitments they've made.

You would

sprip pensions out of those figures.

In order to live up to these

commitments you have to find an

extra billion for the defence

budgets because we're not

calculating pensions anymore?

John

McDonnell is well aware of what they

are doing. Putting in the conflict

resolution money which Gordon Brown

kept separate. He is well aware of

the figures and the difficulties. We

are certainly very committed to a

defence budget that really does make

a difference.

I'm not clear whether

you're telling me it will be 2% 69

spending, excluding pensions?

We

want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

way Labour always calculate it had

up until 2010, not including

pensions.

A significant increase in

military spending?

We are talking

about making sure the spending we

need is there because, at the

current situation, we have with the

current Government, they are

overstretched. Even the very caution

National Audit Office says they are

at immense risk of not being able to

meet the expenditure commitment the

they have made. Others talk about a

black hole. You mentioned it that

£20 billion. There is a real issue

we have to address.

To you know what

it will cost, how muchedingsal funds

will have to be found?

We have to

rook at what are the needs at the

time as well as the facts we want to

make that 2% commitment not

including things which have just

been brushed in now by the

Conservative Government.

Let's move

on to a different aspect of defence.

There is a treaty banning nuclear

weapons opened at the UN for

signatories. 122 countries have

already signed it. Would an incoming

Labour Government sign that treaty?

The important point here is there

was an Is inned opportunity for

there to be observers from the UK.

There should have been at that

treaty talks.

That doesn't change

the calculation whether or not an

incoming Labour Government would

sign that treaty?

We are committed

to a strong multi-lateral disarming

programme. That's what we've seen

missing.

This is a multilateral

approach to try to get rid of

nuclear weapons. What you say you

want. Would a Labour Government sign

that treaty?

You we have to look at

how you go about things. We need toe

somebody clear we want to

de-escalate tensions across the

world. Work with other nuclear

partners to help stop the

proliferation of nuclear weapons. We

want to work with those countries

who feel very strongly about the

treaty so we can work together. We

have to do that in a multilateral

framework.

This is a multi-lateral

disarmament framework. Under the

auspice Is of the UN disto see how

else it could be organised. This is

a great opportunity for you, who

have been a lifelong campaigner for

disarmament.ment Labour Government

will be the first nuclear power to

do so, sign it and lead the way.

We

need to use our position to be

responsible and call for responsible

multi-lateral disarmamentment there

was progress made on this in the

eighties and nineties with

considerable amount of are heads put

to one side and destroyed. We need

to get back on the front foot there.

I don't see any presence by the UK

Government at the moment on that

aagain da. It is not helpful for the

nukes leer nations to be separated

from the non-nuclear nation in the

these debates.

That's why I don't

understand why you're not taking the

opportunity to say a Labour

Government would Take The Stand.

We

should wok together and we should

use our position as a nuclear power

to work for a multilateral

disarmament programme.

You were very

clear in your manifesto that the

Labour Party would keep Trident for

the meantime.

Abs will yously.

We

know throughout his life, Jeremy

Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

it. He signed up to the manifesto

saying Trident would stay. Has he

changed his minds?

The important

thing is that was a manifesto

Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.

We stood on it in 2017 because that

is the Labour Party position.

Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

Leader really believes in that

position?

He believes in democracy

in the party. That is the Labour

Party position. I don't see that

position changing at all. He has

said very clearly that he accepts

that is our Labour Party position.

And that is the manifesto we've

stood on and will continue to stand

on.

I'll need to ask questions about

sexual harassment in Westminster. It

is as much as inissue for the Labour

Party as the Conservative. It was

not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

your colleague on The Andrew Marr

Show this morning, she was asked

whether or not the leadership knew

about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

Do you know?

I absolutely do not

know at this moment in time. That's

why there has to be an

investigation. It is extremely

important to find out what the

allegations were, exactly what

happened, who was told and who told

what to whom. Then we will be in a

position to see what the situation

is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

has been suspended which is the

cricket thing to do.

Rosie Winterton

has been outspoken about what she

let the leadership know. If it is

the case the leadership did know

about these allegations should he

have been put into the Shadow

Cabinet?

The real question is who

did know what when.

But what I'm

asking you is...

I am anot going to

speculate whether there was an if or

whatever. We need to know how that

information was transmitted. Was it

put in writing. What it made clear,

who was told what, when. Until we

have a full investigation it would

be inappropriate to comment. What is

absolute lie clear, we need to get

this right for the future. We must

have proper procedures so we deal

with incidents as and when they

occur. And we deal with them

prepperly in a way which gets to the

bottom of the issue and deals with

it properly.

Why should anyone have

confidence the Labour Party will

treat issues that seriously when,

firstly there's a question whether

they knew about Kelvin hop kips and

others have been dissuaded from

making complaints. Knots just Bex

Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

was harassed at a party senior

figures in the Labour Party told her

it was her own fault. It seems as if

there hasn't been a culture within

Labour to make a complaint.

That's

why we're having a thorough review

of procedures. We brought in new

procedures in July. We need to

ensure there's a proper helpline

available. We are appointing an

independent organisation which will

deal with allegations first-hand so

nobody has to go to somebody they

think might know other people, be

friends with other people. They can

go somewhere completely confidential

and private. These are often things

you can't want to tell your cross

friends about. We will appoint that

organisation and make sure people

can go there and access to it is

made widely known. It is very, very

important when people come into a

job, they know if anything does

happen, they will be able to

complain. Whether they are ordinary

party members or working in

Westminster.

Thank you for talking

to us

For Thank you for talking to us some

on the left of politics,

this weekend wasn't just a chance

to mark the anniversary

of the failed gunpowder

plot here in Britain,

but also events in Russia 100 years

ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries

led by Lenin seized power

and ushered in seven

decades of Communist rule.

For critics, that's something

to regret, not celebrate.

Elizabeth Glinka went to one event

in London to find out more.

The 7th November 1917.

Red Guards under the leadership

of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

Government buildings in Petrograd.

This uprising, known

popularly as Red October

because of the difference

in the Gregorian calendar,

was, in fact, a coup.

The winds of socialist change had

been blowing for some time.

The Tsars had resisted reform

and millions toiled in a state

of almost medieval surfdom.

Then war.

Nearly two million

Russians would die.

The revolution had really begun nine

months earlier in February 1917.

The world's first socialist

republic was declared.

October, well that

was the Bolsheviks

asserting their authority.

A hundred years on, as this

event at the TUC shows,

there's still plenty of people

who want to remember and even

celebrate those momentous events.

Mainly as an event in history,

this is an example of historical

development in action,

the ability of people to club

together and be able to affect

the discourse of history.

It was people's first attempt at

trying to build socialism.

Although there were many terrible

things that happened,

I think we have to try

and draw from experience.

Jeremy Corbyn's close friend

and adviser, Andrew Murray,

was chairing the opening session.

He didn't want to talk to us

but we did manage to speak

to the daughter of one of the most

famous Communists of all time.

TRANSLATION:

It's an historic moment

which opened up possibilities

for further changes

and allowed other people

to strive for a different world.

A world, which it seems,

some are still keen to push for.

We're growing, so there is obviously

a positive reflection.

There is a lot of negative

propaganda that comes

from the Cold War period.

It is harder to talk

to older people maybe.

But younger people

are quite receptive.

The events and discussions taking

place here today cover a whole range

of topics from women's

rights to the Third World

and the impact on British socialism.

But there's much less discussion

of the Russian Civil War,

the purges and the political

repression that would come later.

We wanted to have this conference

because we wanted to show it

in a positive light.

Whatever one's view of what happened

to the Soviet Union subsequently

the fact is it is important

to understand the process

of revolutionary change

for its own sake.

Red October would usher

in 70 years of communism.

The proletarite would rise,

find respect and security.

But the suppression of the peoples

of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

camps and the murder of hundreds

of thousands, if not millions

of people, make it difficult

for many to see that revolution

as something to celebrate.

That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

So is the centenary

of the Russian Revolution a cause

for celebration, or regret?

Well, to discuss this I'm

joined by former Labour

and Respect MP George Galloway,

and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

Good morning. Let me start with you

George Galloway. Is the October

revolution a cause for celebration?

With the, if not for the October

revolution, we'd been conducting

this interview in German. Though the

truth is this interview wouldn't be

taking place and we probably

wouldn't be alive for a variety of

reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill

often owe pined in Parliament and

elsewhere. If not for the Soviet

Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

his successorsness, perhaps until

now, from Vladivostok all the way to

Portugal.

You say we wouldn't be

able to have this discussion. In the

former Soviet Union we couldn't have

this office either?

That's also

true. But even the...

George will be

able to say, that of course.

Even

the sun has spots on its face as

they used to say in the Soviet

Union. There is no doubt tremendous

abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

suffering but, if not for the

transformation, then the Soviet

Union, Russia's GDP increased from

1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

And the strength that defeated

Hitlerism would not have been there.

Peter Hitchens, does it offend you

there are people celebrating 100

years since the Russian Revolution?

Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

in which I lived, you would not have

been able to say it was set up by a

cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but

engineered by the German Imperial

Government using -- a cynical

putsch, almost bloodless. That this

was the inauguration of an immensely

long period of repression,

brutality, secret police,

concentration camps and lies, which

I am likely to have seen come to an

end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

why anybody looking at that

disastrous country where so much

misery was needlessly imposed on so

many people for so long could

possibly celebrate the beginning of

it, which was completely avoidable,

and as I say was truly the result of

the cynical foreign policy and

intelligence operations of the

Imperial German Government is trying

to save it skin...

But everyone

including George Galloway

acknowledges the tyranny and terror

that followed.

He doesn't. He gives

statistics about GDP but fails to

mention the people murdered in

labour

camp... He was of course formerly a

Trotskyite and sung the praises of

Lenin, which I have not done and

neither have I done today. I have

never been a Communist, unlike Peter

Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

celebrate that an entirely different

world opened up as a result of the

events in October 19 17. China, you

have just seen their party congress,

decorated with the iconography of

the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

is the most powerful, or soon will

be the most powerful country on the

earth.

With one of the most

repressive government?

I don't think

that is true. There is repression in

China, but...

Enormous repression in

China! How can you possibly argue

there is an?

China has taken more

people out of poverty in the last 30

years than any country, resume,

system, ever has -- how can you

possibly argue there is not?

All

despots always argue, trying to

distract your attention from the

mountains of skulls behind them,

their supposed economic success,

which generally does not turn out to

be as great as claimed. The Soviet

Union was an enormous pile of rust

by the time I lived there and was a

complete catastrophe.

Yes, that is

why it fell down. But we are talking

about the Revolution 100 years ago.

Is it possible to separate the two

events? A popular overthrowing of a

government is perhaps different from

the tyranny and terror that

followed.

It was not a popular

overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein

propaganda as if it were fact. What

we see was a film made afterwards.

What actually happened was a putsch

in the middle of the night in which

hardly anybody... Nobody has even

mentioned...

That German connection,

a rather more important...

Nobody

has even mentioned during this year

until now that there was a Russian

Revolution. There were two. The

first one was a genuine uprising,

overthrowing the old regime, and I

think we can all be glad of it. The

second one was a cynical for --

foreign financed putsch and it does

not deserve to be spoken out.

Is

that true, and Menshevik revolution

would have done better than a

Bolshevik one?

It is not my business

and entirely counterfactual fiction,

if I may...

Unlike how you open this

discussion.

That is the most

important thing. If not for the

Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.

Hetmyer might still, and most of the

world, with its allies -- Adolph

Hitler might have won and they make,

and most of the world...

The effect

of Bolshevism and coming is on

Europe was colossal.

Let's bring it

all a little bit more up-to-date.

You were saying earlier you have

never been a Leninist, although

Peter Hitchens confesses he was at

one time.

Absolutely was a

Trotskyist, and now nor the complete

folly of that particular political

disposition.

John McDonnell in the

Labour Party openly says he is a

Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a

problem for the Labour Party?

I

would have thought, arts would be

more respected now than he has been

for quite some time as capitalism is

collapsing around our ears. From

2008 the Economist itself, the bible

of capitalism, began to resurrect

Marxist economics and analysis, so I

really don't think it is. Jeremy

Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only

took them four years, 54...

It is

not that.

I think we are moving into

an era where Governments like the

Chinese Government are making plans,

and are succeeding in implementing

them, and thus transforming their

position. China in 1949, and I don't

need to tell you, was just about the

most backward place you could

possibly imagine. And from 1949 to

now it has sold transforms that it

is the world's biggest economy...

We

are in danger of getting sidetracked

by China here.

I have to put this

point in. If China was backward in

1949 it was far more backward by the

time Mao Zedong finished his great

leap forward and starved millions of

people to death in the period of

economic lunacy. You just don't

notice...

What George was saying

they are, and a sense certainly

amongst younger voters in this

country and others, where they are

turning against capitalism, they

don't think it has worked or

delivered for them, that this kind

of Marxist Leninist philosophy is

becoming more popular?

Let's hope

not. The fact the current system is

failing does not seem to recommend

the Soviet system, which is

demonstrably a failure, and even its

own leaders admitted it failed and

that is why they tried to reform it

in the period I was there and why it

collapsed. Whatever you might want

to conclude from examining our

position, the Soviet alternative is

not the thing you want the dues.

This was a long period of disaster,

and I remember at the end of it

watching in Moscow said a film which

has never been shown here, and the

title means approximately we can't

go on living like this, and for the

first time, the politburo told the

truth about what life was like in

the dreadful place and everyone in

that cinema was weeping because

finally they saw the truth being

told about the dreadful

anti-civilisation in which they had

been taught to live for so long. The

idea we should celebrate it revive

it seems to me to be verging on the

obscene.

George, one interesting

question about this of course,

whilst there are events going on in

London and across the UK to mark

this centenary, it is not being

celebrated in Russia.

I was in

Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

is a big debate about whether it

ought to be, and many people are

celebrating it...

Vladimir Putin is

not. He would want to ignore it.

But

the Communist Party is the second

biggest party in Russia. And it is

the ruling party in China, which,

with respect, is not a separate

thing, because China is continuing

the Russian Revolution and doing

rather better at it than the

Russians did, but there are many

people, particularly older, that is

true, who think that the era of the

Soviet Union was better than the

very cold period of capitalism that

succeeded it. So half the world

followed for a time the red flag,

the red banner of Leninism. No one

will do so again. Leninism of the

kind that Peter used to proselytise

is certainly not coming back, but

Marxism is going to live on.

Let's

hope not.

Thank you both, gentlemen,

for coming on to speak about that.

It's coming up to 11.40am.

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

Coming up on the programme:

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations.

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations?

It wasn't just Westminster

that had the fireworks this week.

We're asking people in Guildford

in Surrey,

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

Hello, hello, and welcome to Sunday

politics here in the glorious west

of England.

Coming up, last of the summer wine.

Many farmers and growers

have had had trouble

recruiting foreign workers

for this year's harvest.

Is this a taste of

what it has in store?

Well, it's bonfire

night of course so I'm

expecting some fireworks

between my guests today.

They are the Conservative MP

for North Wiltshire,

James Gray, and the green Euro

MP Molly Scott Cato.

Nice to see you both.

Well, in the week's

political news it has

been dominated rather

by

the harassment scandal

in Westminster.

James, are you

surprised at how many MPs have

been caught up in this?

Well, it's been a horrible

atmosphere in Parliament

all week with everyone wondering

what on earth's going on.

And the thing that

worries me about it is

that it's very, very

serious matters and that

have to be investigated

and

dealt with being muddled up

with a lot of trivia.

And that is very bad

for all the victims.

If there are victims

of serious matters, and one

or two horrible allegations around,

they shouldn't be mixed up with some

ancient business about some fellow

putting his hand on

a journalist's knee.

Shouldn't do that, probably,

but all the less it is trivial by

comparison to some of the other

things that have been caring.

We've to take sexual

harassment seriously,

we've got to do with it,

we've got to prevent it,

but we mustn't allow it

to be come a witchhunt.

Is it going to actually

escalate to the

extent where perhaps it might even

bring down the government?

Not necessarily the

Conservatives being

involved but...

I think there is no risk of that,

I think all parties

are involved in one way or another.

I don't think there is any

likelihood of the government falling

over, I think that would be

extremely surprising, but there will

be some changes to come at the top

I think and if there

are people guilty of things,

Michael Fallon apparently

believed he was, then it's right

that there should be the changes.

OK, let's move on to you, Molly.

We're just wondering what your

experience is in the European

Parliament.

It's hard to believe that

if there are these issues at

Westminster it doesn't affect people

in Brussels and Strasbourg, too.

I have to say, actually,

I haven't experienced

sexual harassment at all

in the European Parliament.

I think there is a very

different atmosphere

there.

There are many more women

relatively, in the parliament

compared to Westminster,

and I think that in

the corridors of power,

the

old boys' club, the sort

of culture of Westminster

is quite backward

in

lots of ways and I think this may be

one example of that.

Personally I think Ruth

Davidson hit the nail on

the head when she said usually this

isn't about sex, it's about power,

and it about that nature power

relationships between men and women

where there is not a quality that

I think leads to this kind of

harassment and sexual exploitation.

James.

Well, it has of course happened many

times in the European

Union, too, there's no question

about that whatsoever.

It happens everywhere

that human beings get

together, probably

happens at the BBC,

I dare say, not casting

any

any...

Any asparagus at you.

Asparagus?

Aspersions, aspersions, aspersions!

No problem to me,

asparagus.

It happens in all

human organisations.

Any evidence of it

happening in the European

Parliament?

Yes of course, a number of MEPs have

had to leave because of

it but it does, of course,

it happens in every

company, in every organisation

where men and women are getting

together it can happen

and that is

why you have team have very clear

rules, very clear rules and

procedures to make sure

that it isn't allowed to

happen...

No, I just wanted to

say indeed there has

been some allegations in

the previous mandate which are being

investigated, and one of the things

I think is important that people

don't just respond in a knee jerk

sort of way but we try and

look at the fundamentals

of what's going on.

Yes, that is right yes.

We have a load of

e-mails from people

saying "I absolutely agree,

as if that was going

to solve the problem.

We don't need virtue signalling

here, we need people to actually

address the fundamentals.

Yes.

We talked about Michael Fallon

as Defence Secretary but we now have

this guy, Mr Williamson,

with his tarantula, what do

you think that appointment?

Well, Gavin's a very,

very able chap highly intelligent,

highly competent, knows everybody.

He doesn't yet know

anything about defence,

he has an awful lot

to

learn there and I hope

to play a little part

in helping educate him.

He does need to learn

a great deal about it.

Isn't it an odd system

where someone with no idea about

defence is suddenly in charge

of hundreds of thousands of people?

I was just about to say the great

British system is that the Secretary

of State very rarely does.

One thing you do not

want to have as Secretary

of State for Health

as a

doctor and wanted you don't want

to have as secretary of State for

education is a teacher.

Civil servants do all

of that, the job of

the secretary of state is to make

the political decisions on the

question of the sort of civil

service put up to you.

Would you ever fancy

Defence Secretary?

I think it's highly

unlikely the Tories

would ever appoint me

as

Defence Secretary but I think

I could really shake things up.

You would do away with

it, you would do away with it.

With both my poppies,

I'd be spending a lot more on

peacemaking than on war-making.

Well, as well you know, it's been

cold this week so the thought

of being without a roof

over your head doesn't bear

thinking about a new law coming

into force next year would mean

local councils up to do more

to help him

or at risk of homelessness.

But there are fears

they would have enough

money to do it, always

the

issue, of course.

Dan O'Brien reports.

This homeless charity is serving up

hope as well as a meal

and it is much needed.

In the mornings,

I think what's the point

getting up for?

Yeah.

And carrying...

I mean...

Now the weather's

getting colder, I just

don't know what I'm going to do.

Demand is growing in towns like

Devizes, not just in big cities.

Lost my house, the kids

went into care.

, Goodness.

Then I ended up in the back

of a van, where there is no

heating, water, no access to...

Cooking food, nothing.

The arrival of bacon

butties, one of the way the

open doors charity provides welcome

relief from life on the streets.

I've had a rough time in life.

I have obviously have

some addictions,

I've had to face my demons as well,

I'm still going through them, but

it's been a long process.

And it has led to a life

hard to imagine in the

west's pretty market towns.

So right now I'm staying

in a wooden shed and

it's just...

It's absolutely freezing,

it's really...

It's diabolical really.

What, just like a garden shed?

Just like a garden shed, yeah.

With my partner and...

Two of you, then?

Yeah!

Homelessness takes many

forms, but rough sleeping

is the most extreme.

Across the west, the number

of rough sleepers

candid in 2010 was 107 people.

By the time of the last

count in 2016,

it had more than doubled to 241.

The next count takes

place in the coming

weeks.

Before people even end up needing

the help of homeless

charities like this one, next year

the law will change forcing councils

like Wiltshire to provide more help

people more quickly than they do

now.

The change are really putting

pressure on council bosses.

The homeless reductions

act will give us

the requirement to actually look

after people earlier.

Up to now it's been 28 days,

now it's 56 now just

by the sheer numbers

involved that is going

to double the case load

we

have every year.

The government is promising extra

cash, but will it be

enough?

We have to balance our priorities

because of course we've

got looked after kids, we got

elderly care, we got even roads,

potholes, people have concerns

about all sorts of areas.

Meanwhile west MPs Richard

Graham, David Warburton

and Michelle Donelan

are backing a charity

call for the Chancellor

to

put more cash into helping homeless

people rent a place to live.

For Jen in Devizes,

help can't come soon enough.

Where would you be without

the facilities like this and

charities like this?

Oh to be fair, I'd probably

end up being dead, to

be fair, I would have just gone over

the top but these places, they've

opened the doors to everybody

and they don't judge anybody, and

they're just fantastic.

Charities like this one

to rely on donations

as winter draws in they also need

coats, socks and sleeping bags.

Help from the community

as well as the

government.

Well, to discuss that I'm joined

by Hannah Gowsey from the

housing charity crisis thanks

for coming on the programme.

When you helped draft

this new law that is

coming in next year,

how much of a difference

will it make, do you think?

The new legislation marks

a transformation of the homelessness

legislation in England.

When the new legislation

comes in, thousands more

people will be eligible for

assistance at a much, much earlier

point so in principle the

legislation will go a long way to

help resolving homelessness

but of course we do need to make

sure that authorities are properly

resourced

to meet the new duties

and that is why ahead of the budget

we are calling on the government

to invest

a further £31 million

in help to rent schemes.

And have you had any indication

that that might actually happen?

So we don't have any indication

ahead of the budget as to

whether or not will be included.

But what I would say is that

government has made firm commitments

to tackle homelessness.

They have put a lot

of support behind the

homeless reduction act,

they've also pledged

to halve rough sleeping

by

2022, and end it all together

by 2027, so by supporting

the help to rent projects and

including them in the budget they

would be helping to meet their own

commitments on this.

What I would say though

is that we obviously have

no guarantee that this

is going to be in the

budget and that is why

we

are asking members

of the public to price

to the Chancellor ahead

of the

budget on the 22nd of November

and ask them to include

this and you can do that

by going to our website, we

have a very easy letter that

you can just fill in.

OK, thank you for that!

And I will come back to you if I can

a little bit later on.

James, the number of homeless has

doubled whilst the Tories

have been on duty.

Well, I very much welcome this

new bill brought in by my

friend Bob Blackman,

the Conservative MP for Harrow West.

It was a member's bill

in the government that

then adopted it and

they have now put behind

it £75 million already

and have promised

a

lot more money to come to help local

authorities with these extra

burdens, so it is a good bill.

But of course one

single person sleeping

outdoors is a scandal.

I'm very worried locally

particularly by the

ex-military, an awful lot of

veterans who can't find a home and

they are sleeping rough,

particularly around this area and

also in London and elsewhere,

and we have defined

way of helping them

in

particular.

The big worry often is

that the government says it will do

something and then

doesn't fully fund it

so it puts the pressure

on

the local authorities

and they have to cut

something else in order

to

make it happen.

Of course, we already have

a statutory obligation to look after

the homeless, that is part of

the government's job and always has

been.

This is piling on extra duties

to intervene 56 days

before someone is made homeless?

That's right.

They are trying to avoid

you becoming homeless and

they're all kinds

different homeless people.

Varying from the people who may

be suffering from drug

problems...

But it's the money, James,

we know the problems.

It's the money.

So everyone wants more

money all the time.

But the problem is burying

from all sorts of people

who've got real sickness, alcohol

problems, ex-military, these kind

of...

They aren't all the same and each

one has to be treated

separately, and local authorities

of the people that can do that.

That is why the government

has put up £75

million to help them do it.

Molly, this is a problem

I guess across Europe.

You have spent a lot of time

in Brussels and Strasbourg.

Do you see people

sleeping rough there?

There are definitely people sleeping

rough and people begging in most

European countries

and in many cases it's

often refugees, that's

certainly the case in Belgium.

But just to

come back to what James was saying.

He neatly sidestepped your question

about why this has doubled,

why this problem has greatly

increased under the Tories but it is

indeed a result of all be spending

cuts and also the welfare cap.

Is it?

Yes, I mean, the welfare cap is

absolutely crucial here because if

you are an housing benefit and it

did is cut you cannot afford to pay

your rent you are made homeless.

That is the beginning of that.

There are lots of complex

issues you would

accept, there's

addiction, there's...

As mental health, there's

relationship breakdown, the whole

lot.

The housing charities

agree that the most

significant cause of

this is

when the government,

the Tory government,

as part of its cuts,

introduced the cap on welfare

benefits...

It's a shame to make

it party political.

It's not a party political matter.

It is a party political

matter, because YOU have

been cutting welfare.

matter, because YOU have

There are of course

more beds available in

hostels today than there are people.

210 is very insignificant

by comparison

to the number of beds in hostels.

These people are not

unable to go to hostels,

they don't wish to do so.

That's what we have to look into,

that's to do with mental health,

it's to do with drugs...

It's not Labour or

Conservative, I think

that's just wrong to...

Let's just think about

what we're talking about

here.

We are talking about children,

families, who cannot afford to

cannot afford to...

No, we're talking

about rough sleepers.

Rough sleepers.

It's rough sleepers.

Hang on a second.

This brings me

onto my next question.

Where are these homes

going to be found?

Well, of course we're

talking here about rough

sleepers, we're not talking

about homeless people.

We're talking about people sleeping

outdoors in the West

Country, and they are the worst

people we really have

to do something about.

As I say there are more hostel

places available than...

So when the government

put a cap on welfare

payments, and particularly

on housing benefit, there was a

catastrophic fall off in the number

of social housing homes being built.

What is the cap?

I think it is £20,000.

That's a lot of money.

That's not just housing

benefit, that's the

whole welfare cap.

Housing benefit is

just a part of that.

So then there was no

incentive to carry on

building, it was simply stopped

building social housing because they

didn't think people

would be able to pay

enough to afford it

and that is

the rub.

Is it still the green policy

to build 500,000 new social

last.

It didn't get us in amess at all.

All if you recall, Evan Davis said

the policy was quite right.

Your leader had no

idea how much it would

cost.

She had a cold that day, she

couldn't remember the numbers but

Evan Davis actually confirmed

that it is actually fine.

Do you remember the numbers now?

We're not making that proposal

now because we're not

in a general election period.

No, it hasn't gone.

The point is that funding

will come as a result of

councils being able to borrow to

build and that is worth their while

because at the moment

they are having to pay an awful lot

of money to keep people in bed

and breakfasts

who wouldn't be much more

efficiently invested into into safe,

warm homes for people to live in.

OK.

In this weather, we all need that.

Thank you very much, and Hannah,

in London, thank you very

much, too.

We are 16 months on from the Brexit

referendum and still very

little is clear about what it

will mean for any of us.

But there has been one

significant effect.

The fall in the value of the pound.

It has meant opportunities.

For some Businesses in the west

but some problems for

others as Martin Jones reports.

The last of the summer wine.

The grape harvest coming

to an end in this

Gloucestershire winery.

Pickers are in high demand.

These are from Bulgaria

working so hard they don't

stop too long to chat.

Is it good money working in Britain?

Depends.

It's good for us, compared

to here it is low standard.

Is this your first time in England?

Yeah, it's my first time.

What do you think?

It's very beautiful here.

But in Bulgaria is more beautiful.

But the winery needs

Mohammed to overcome the

beauty of his homeland because they

want him back next year.

And more like him.

We wanted to have 12,

perhaps 14 people to come and help

us additionally

to our regular labour.

We have found that we rarely

were able to achieve those numbers,

they have been leaving in droves

to go to Germany, to work for euros,

and they aren't making the money

here that they did with the exchange

rate of the pound.

From the vineyard the grapes

are processed on site

making a quarter of

a million bottles a year.

But in the wine world

that is just a dribble.

And it's all drunk here in the UK.

And since the referendum

costs have soared leaving

a sour taste.

For us at the moment the fall

in the pound has meant the

difference in that what we import

has become more expensive.

Bottles, the label,

paper we print the labels

on is imported, the capsules,

foils for our sparkling wines, so

any equipment that we want to buy.

The value of the pound slumped

straight after the Brexit vote and

has never recovered.

It means British

pounds by less abroad.

Holidays, computers, food and drink

have all become more expensive.

But if you have foreign cash buying

British has become cheaper.

But down the road in

Somerset one farm has

seen a Brexit boost.

At Sharp Park near Street,

Roger Saul grows spelt,

a type of ancient grain,

regaining popularity thanks

to its supposedly health benefits.

The fall in the pound has

recently helped Roger land

a big contract with

a British supermarket.

We work with Waitrose, Sainsbury's,

Marks & Spencer, all of

those teams are looking very hard

I would suggest at the moment to see

what they can do in Britain.

And it is not just

because of national

pride.

The lower exchange rate means his

Somerset grains are finally

competitive with those from abroad.

It has opened up some big doors for

us and that is largely because of

that same competition

that was 20% cheaper now

being the same price

as

me so I would love to say I have now

a level playing field.

Spelt is a far cry

from Roger's business

roots.

He founded fashion brand Mulberry,

selling British handbags

all round the world.

And Brexit could finally

mean he is able to sew

up more international

deals for spelt.

So, from the export side

the opportunity is there.

However it is probably

early days because most

people are looking and seeing will

the currency stay where it is as a

country to imports to,

but they are definitely

out there looking.

But even the one

change we have already

seen since the referendum

may not last.

The pound could go

back up of course.

Predicting our Brexit