01/07/2012 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

In Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, we investigate claims that patient

safety was put at risk a tutor government targets in some of our

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1689 seconds

Good afternoon. Today: Claims that targets were put before patients'

safety. Why the NHS paid half a million pounds to keep a hospital

boss quiet. And as more flooding hit our part

of the world, there is growing concern that many homeowners will

be left high and dry by insurance companies.

You may well recognise our guests today. They are Alan Johnson,

Labour MP for West Hull and Hessle, and Timothy Kirkhope, Conservative

MEP for Yorkshire and The Humber. Alan Johnson, we will kick off

talking about the NHS target culture. Do you accept that in some

cases targets introduced under Labour have -- have been

detrimental to patients? Not at all. Targets are about patient care.

Patients shouldn't have to wait two-and-a-half years a life-saving

operations as they were. Some patients waited six years for a

simple cataract operation. Patients shouldn't have to have lay on a

trolley for 24 hours in Nd. If the patient is diagnosed with cancer in

the GP's surgery, they shouldn't have to wait weeks before they get

into acute care. This argument that a target culture affected patient

care, the target culture in this huge organisation called the NHS is

what turned that ship around. Timothy Kirkhope, that of the

argument from Labour. Targets were a good thing in many cases. I agree

with Alan Johnson. Targets can be a very good thing. But they're not a

good thing if people cheat or people contrive to pretend that

they are meeting targets which the government isn't actually providing

the resources to meet. That is the key point. When people forced into

that situation by management when they have to speak out because of

it, they ought to be defended. Today we're asking whether patient

safety was compromised due to medical staff chasing targets set

by Whitehall. Documents leaked to the Sunday Politics reveal concerns

at the main hospital trust in Lincolnshire. Some are questioning

why a former hospital boss was given a half a million pound payout

and subjected to so-called super gag after he was sacked from his

job. Sharon Edwards has the full Rising debts, an ageing population

and a drive to save billions. Pressure on our hospitals is rising.

But what happens when it all gets too much? In late 2008, and Lincoln

County Hospital was experiencing unprecedented demand. * For placed

under more pressure to meet targets without any additional resources. -

- staff were placed. The chairman had real concerns about patients'

safety. They requested a review of the situation, but were turned down

by NHS regional managers. Lincoln's wards were filling up with

emergency cases. Chief executive Garry Walker and trust chairman

David Bowles knew that they were struggling to set the targets set

by government but were told they would not be given any slack.

were asked quite simply to meet the targets. They had to achieve the

target. It meant that doctors were going to be having to work longer

hours, built -- beyond what they say police should have been working

and patience just weren't going to get the time. There are going to be

shunted in and out of envy and not given the correct amount of time to

assess their problems. -- A N the. A we have seen an e-mail from the

health authority telling managers they had to meet 100 % of one

target within three weeks. Mr Walker wrote to the head of the NHS

are claiming he had been subjected to bullying and harassment and told

that his career would be in tatters if he refused to leave his job. He

said Mr Bowles and other directors had been told that their careers

arrested on delivering the targets. My concerns were that the pressures

coming from outside of the trust could compromise patient safety. I

stood up to those pressures and when it came to the point I can

stand those pressures any longer, I resigned and made my concerns

public. Mr Walker was sacked for swearing. He sued for unfair

dismissal but signed a gagging order and returned for a payout.

you sack somebody for nothing, for allegedly swearing, and then you

spend half million pounds keeping it quiet and trying to prevent

information getting into the public domain, but says there is something

seriously wrong here. -- backs there's. In the GMB Stephen

Phillips has written to the health secretary Andrew Lansley asking for

an urgent investigation. We need to see all of the documents so we can

see whether or not the last government's target culture led to

this case in patients' safety. -- Leg to risks. If that is the case,

they will have to be held to account. In a statement, the United

Lincolnshire Hospitals Trust says it is committed to providing high

quality, safe service. It has halved the number of patients

waiting longer than 18 weeks' treatment. Some NHS targets have

since been relaxed, but one union says the pressure on staff is still

immense. They have lifted those targets but we have seen only this

week by hospital trust on the verge of going into administration

because there are other pressures on the NHS. It is too simple to say

targets are good or bad, you have to look at the whole picture. And

the whole picture is that the NHS is under more pressure than it has

ever been. Another NHS scandal will not derail the huge reforms

currently being brought in, but it will reignite the political debate

on who we can really trust with our health services. Sharon Edwards

reporting there, and we have been asked to emphasise that those

leaked documents referred to by Sharon did not come from Lincoln

Hospital's former chief executive Gary Walker. Alan Johnson, what is

your reaction to these claims that former hospital boss was paid half

a million pounds to keep quiet, one of these so-called super gags? If

he had legitimate concerns about patients' safety commission they be

made public? What happened when the hospital went the strategic health

authority, they said they went to the regional NHS body and they

wouldn't give them any more money. It can't be an issue about the

sources. By the time to that of her nine came, we were spending �1,600

per head of population. It's whether the resource should have

gone into bat hospital. The second issue is the worrying one about why

this guy's got this huge payout. When I was health secretary has

stopped a big payout going to the chief executive of Mainstone have

to weather had been a scandalous situation with regard to to

infections. Woods up -- if something goes wrong, there is the

culture that you get a big payout that irrespective of who was to

blame. If there was swearing and the chief executive was dismissed

for that cannot why was he given a payout? The third element is a wide

as Stephen want to go back to 2009 because he wants to deflect

attention? The NHS has got to save �20 billion over the next five

years. How can we be sure these incidents were not happen again?

What we're talking about here was under the watch Bob Alan Johnson

and his friends when they were in government. -- Bob Alan Johnson.

The most important conclusion to draw from this is that the

government is undoubtedly looking at resources as it has to do with

everything. We have to be open about this. Setting up health watch,

which we are doing from October, which is going to encourage public

participation in the sort of decisions that have been going on

there, meaning that whistleblowers would have an audience that can be

listened to independently. A thing that will help us enormously.

Whether the problems should be covered up, I don't think so. I

think they should be brought to the attention to that -- of the public.

Alan Johnson, you were Health Secretary when the Mid

Staffordshire Hospital problems were revealed. Prof hundred people

could have died because of government targets. -- 1,200 people.

Did you learn lessons? It wasn't because of government targets.

There is an enquiry which will happen in October. It was the chief

executive he decided to get Foundation Trust -- him at decided

that to get a... It says all you need to know about staff at. What

reflects the NHS now compared to when Timothy was in government is

low waiting times, people being diagnosed quickly within a

fortnight, premature deaths from cancer down, that is changing in

just two years as we go to this enormous reorganisation. Where not

focused on patient care. Ongoing investment right now where it

really matters, it as to avoid that sort of thing. The bottom line is

open us. The misery caused by flooding has

been evident again this week, as parts of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

were affected by torrential downpours. It's five years since

the worst flash floods in living memory and many homeowners claim

lessons haven't been learnt from the summer of 2007. Here's Len

Tingle. When we received a flood warning... A Jason Taylor

demonstrates new flood defences just fitted to his front door.

Effective, he hopes, to keep out a foot or so of water. But five years

ago, this is what happened to his street in Darfield just outside

Bardsley. The river burst its banks twice in a week. Waves up to five

feet high birth through doors, destroying everything inside. -- a

burst. No one in because they haven't been in a flood his in the

1950s. -- no warning. It is a risk too far for insurance companies.

have to pay a premium, maybe 800 or 900 pounds more. A what does that

make you and your family feel? Do you sleep at night wondering if it

will rain heavy again the? When it rains heavy, everybody is checking

the river because they're all concerned. On this street of modest

houses hearing dark field, before the floods just five years ago,

insurance premiums were around �200 for contents and rebuild insurance.

Now they are being asked double, treble, quadruple, and even then

the insurance companies are saying, yes, you can have your insurance

but you won't be covered for floods in future. And that is despite a

deal between government and insurers to keep existing cover in

place. Without it, it is thought the flood risk of a large part of

Yorkshire and virtually the whole of Hull makes it uninsurable. A

replacement deal is being negotiated but insurers say they

want effective spend on flood defences to manage the risk. That

is where this man comes in. He is the Floods Minister. On Tuesday, he

toured parts of West Yorkshire where floods had just hit towns

like Hebden Bridge. We are reducing the spending over four years by six

%, but against cutting my Department of 30 %, it shows a real

priority. It is a spending similar amounts of the government of before,

but we are making flood defences an absolute priority. And that was

clearly on the Prime Minister's mind on his visit to Toddington on

Thursday. Long term, we need another deal with the insurance

companies so they do what it says on the 10th. They provide people

with cover against flooding. -- on the tin. But if the public floods

Syrett -- summit -- but the public flood summit warned of further

problems. The insurance industry have accepted it, but they say,

don't expect us to take up the risk. Other politicians wrangle,

uncertainty grows. These pictures must have made many reach for their

insurance policies. But the fear is, if there is next time, those

policies might not exist. And you can read more about the politics of

flooding on Len's blog. Timothy Kirkhope, what is the government

doing to reassure homeowners that they will still be able to get

insurance when this statement of principle runs out in insurance

companies next year? As we saw that clip, the Prime Minister takes it

enormously seriously. He has been trying to talk this through with

the insurers in a fairly robust manner because the insurers simply

cannot relate directly their agreement to cover on flooding

against the amount of money that any government spends. I have to

say, we are being criticised because through economic stringency

we cannot put as much money into flood defences as we might like.

But it is an enormous sum compared with what it was years ago. In 2001,

the Institute of Civil Engineers criticised but the Labour

government needed to spend double to get even basic flood defences

into places. Here, we have got problems which need to be solved

and insurance companies have got to show more responsibility and to

react positively to the government. Alan Johnson, no government can

fully protect everywhere from flooding, can they? Know, but they

can do a lot more than we are doing at the moment. We don't want to get

to the insurers and be flooded in the first place, and the issue of

the pit to review after those terrible floods in 2007 made it

plain that the gunman had to maintain the spending and increases

above inflation every year. He made the point, every �1 spent on flood

defences saves �8 further down the line. So it is crucial that we keep

to those spending plans. When it comes to the insurers, this meeting

in Hull was very interesting. A constituent of mine died and the

Environment Agency tried to solve the problem by creating lagoons so

the water flows out, and yet as one of my constituents. Lap, having

done that, the Environment Agency tried to make it safe for a one in

hundred year it rainfall, and yet she still cannot get insurance.

as Alan knows, there is also an issue regarding the Environment

Agency. I think they have really got their act together now. Your

own residents in your constituency were not given adequate warning.

The Environment Agency is now informing people, it is giving

positive notifications and doing positive things to help them. That

is a key issue as well as the insurer has been positive. Now,

let's get some more of the week's political news in our part of the

world with our round-up in 60 seconds. The Barclays Bank scandal

turned into a political battleground with an attack on the

government from Leeds MP Rachel Reeves, who in her Treasury role

was standing in for the Chancellor Ed Balls. We are calling for the

strongish pound spent for those to have broken the law. The Chancellor

claimed that Ed Balls should have been there. He was certainly there

every single day while these abuses were taking place. Meanwhile the

government announced an increase in wage subsidies in unemployment

blackspots like Hull to give employers incentives to take on

long-term jobless young people. These are the young people who are

hardest to reach. In the labour markets, that are hardest to crack.

And Labour's plans to support government reform of the House of

Lords raised a few at eyebrows but Ed Miliband is sticking to his guns.

They will be lots of people might party he then we shouldn't be doing

that but we do want proper scrutiny. -- in my party who think. Why does

that matter to your constituency, Alan Johnson? Because they want to

live in a proper, grown-up democracy. I had stood on election

for four times and on every occasion my manifesto said, reform

the House of Lords. So did the Conservatives this time, so did the

Liberal Democrats. Let's get rid of this institutionalised snobbery.

Many Tories are unhappy, could this be the straw that breaks the

coalition's back? We had just got to get on with it. One thing is

going to stop us doing this, the House of Lords. Either of you fancy

the job, you get a 15 year 10 and the closest thing you get to the