15/07/2012 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire


15/07/2012

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. An epic spat in the Commons would

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Tories queuing up to strangle Nick Coming up in half an hour, the

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Yorkshire MP calling for the return of capital punishment, what impact

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1800 seconds

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does a trip to death row in the USA Hello, good afternoon. This is

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Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and the North Midlands.

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Coming up, the Yorkshire MP calling for the return of capital

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punishment. What impact does a trip to death row in the USA have won

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his beliefs? You never know, I might go back and think maybe it is

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not the right idea. Our guests are death penalty

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supporter, the Conservative MP for Shipley, Philip Davies, and Edward

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McMillan-Scott, Liberal Democrat MEP and human rights campaigner

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very much against the death penalty. Before we get on to the main

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talking point Michael the day, can I ask about a story in the papers

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this week, claiming you and members of the committee you represent

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accepted tickets from BT to attend the men's 100 metres final at the

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Olympics, the blue riband event. Do you intend to attend that event?

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Absolutely, yes. I have been on the select committee for six years,

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scrutinising the preparations for the Olympics. My first meeting was

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at the Olympic Park to scrutinise the plans, and we have got to

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scrutinise what are going on at the Games, too. It would be bizarre if

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we didn't go and see what is going on. You have responded to your

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critics, let's get on to the most important talking point. Edward

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McMillan-Scott, polls show that the majority of the public are in

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favour of the restoration of capital punishment. Should the

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House of Commons vote on this? There has been a tendency for the

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public to take a tough view on this. Whether repetition -- where a

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petition was raised, I didn't get more than 50,000 signatures,

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requiring 100,000 for a debate in the Commons. There's a general

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feeling that those concerns tougher just as is needed was in fact

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because we're in the European Union, the idea is not possible. Find out

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what happens when Philip Davies heads to the death-row, but, first,

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the last man sentenced to death in an English court came from

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Scarborough? David Chapman escaped the hangman's noose after capital

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punishment was outlawed in 1965. Almost half a century later, the

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subject still prompts a fierce Scarborough, for millions of

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northerners, a place of happy memories, especially for those

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families drawn to its two outdoor pools, both are now long since

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demolished, but this one, the North Bay pool was the unlikely scene of

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what became a piece of kiss and darker national history.

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In the summer of 1965, shocked readers of the Scarborough Evening

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News heard they had been a murder. In the early hours, a night

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watchman at the North Bay pool had been deliberately drowned as he

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tried to stop would-be burglars. By late autumn, the paper was

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reporting from the trial of David Chapman. On 1st November, 1965, he

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was found guilty of what the judge called a callous and brutal murder.

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He was sentenced to hang, the last time that sentence would be passed

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in any English court. Chapman didn't how ring. Within days of his

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sentence being handed down, Parliament temporarily at least

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abolished capital punishment. His sentence was commuted to life

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imprisonment. He was released on licence in 1979. A couple of years

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later, he died in a car crash. The case joined a long list already

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highlighted in the often bitter arguments on capital punishment,

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right up until MPs voted for permanent abolition in 1979. It is

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still going on. This week, BBC Radio Leeds broadcast a debate on

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crime and justice, attending the son of the first victim of the

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Yorkshire Ripper and the father whose daughter was strangled by a

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violently abusive partner. If you take my life, I would expect

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somebody to take your. Life means a life sentence, but I don't believe

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that that it should mean capital punishment. There are over 30 e-

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petitions calling for more parliamentary debate. Opinion polls

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suggest people want capital punishment. Hanging may be gone but

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it is not forgotten. Len Tingle reporting there. So

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let's find out what happened when Philip Davies visited a prison in

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Florida where the death penalty is carried out.

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As part of BBC Radio Leeds' Crime and Justice week, video journalist

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Spencer Stokes followed the Shipley MP to discover whether his view

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would change when confronted by the harsh reality of state-condoned

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440 men on death row. Inmates convicted of terrible crimes

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waiting to be executed. Long, legal battles to avoid the legal --

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lethal injection. This is just as, Florida style, and it is a system

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that fascinates Philip Davies, who has come to the USA to see if

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examining the system at close- quarters work altered his famously

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strident views. I am not aware of any MPs been to visit Death Row. I

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don't tend to change my mind very often, but from speaking to people

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who operate the system, you never know, I may go back and think,

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actually, maybe it isn't the right idea. The death penalty was

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reintroduced in Florida in 1976, and 73 people have been put to

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death, two of them this year. The executions take place a few miles

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from this town, where Philip is meeting the state representative.

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Welcome to Florida. Nice to meet a like minded politicians. He is a

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Republican who campaigns for the death penalty and he rejects the

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argument that executions do little to cut crime rates. You can run the

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statistics and say it doesn't deter it. I would rebut that by saying

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that is because we have moved in a direction where his -- where it is

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not an swift and sure. The reality and distance between their friends

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and when it is carried out has been diluted. A constant stream of

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trials, retrials and appeals have slowed the number of executions in

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Florida, so now inmates are spending decades on death-row, and

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some have been there in excess of 30 years. Philip Davis is about to

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see the inner workings of the system. He is here to walk death-

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row, see the execution chamber and meet the deathwatch, on the. I do

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the right thing. I want to handle it with respect. It is a very

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important job, and I want to do the best job I can. It makes it easier

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for me to go home knowing I did the right thing. He believed -- you

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begins his tour of the prison. Two hours later, his outlook remains

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that same. I want to commend you on your prison regime which is what

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the British public, if they could design it, this is what they would

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design. For those with family inside, there is a different view

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and after his visit to death-row, Philip means -- meets Rosalyn. Her

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husband, a convicted double murderer, is facing execution at

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Florida State prison. He needs to think before he opens his mouth. He

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is just using the death penalty as some kind of platform for him to be

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tough on crime. And that kind of thing. And it is disingenuous. I

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think it's... It's terrible. believes her husband is innocent

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and since 1976, 23 innocent men have been freed from death row. But

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could an innocent man be executed? Florida's state attorney says it is

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unlikely. Our burden of proof is proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Some of my constituents don't agree with me and think the death penalty

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should not be reintroduced. What could you say to them that might

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persuade them otherwise? Why would we allow somebody to shoot and kill

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someone who has bird arrived and might be trying to rape a woman

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inside of a home? That is an act that can take alive, but the same

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act, we say it is barbaric to take their life. Florida is proud of its

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law enforcement and justice system. An electric chair that claimed the

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lives of 440 death-row inmates takes pride of place in a state

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museum. A chair in which Philip Kamara flecked. I feel remarkably

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comfortable about sitting here. You think about the people that have

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sat through here and what they must have been going through. We also

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think about what we have to do and what those people have done to beat

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in this chair. I feel remarkably... Cool and confident of this is

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actually the right system of justice. I think my view has now

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been reinforced and I am in favour of capital punishment. When the

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backlash does come, it is not inconceivable that some day down

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the line, the UK will decide to bring back the day of Panel two.

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And I opening visit for Philip, but one that has not changed his mind.

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He remains a strong supporter of the death penalty and has now of

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the view that many voters at home would also favour Florida style

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justice. So, the US experience didn't change

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your view? It reinforced my view that the Americans are much tougher

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on crime, the prison regime is tougher, the sentencing regime is

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tougher. Even if you don't get the death penalty, you have a whole

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life tariff without any parole. So, they have a much tougher approach.

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I think that is what my constituents would like to see. I

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am absolutely convinced they would like a much tougher sentencing

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regime, as they do in Florida. Edward McMillan-Scott, do you agree

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with his view.? If you look at the effectiveness of various sanctions,

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it doesn't work. The number of murders has actually gone down by

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27% when the death penalty was removed in Florida. Across the

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world, where the death penalty exists, those countries have twice

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the number of the murder rate. Leaving aside the morality of it,

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it doesn't work. White even consider even introducing it.

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you agree? No. You say it doesn't work. A man was convicted of murder,

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was released, and then abducted and raped a boy in my constituency. If

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the death penalty was in place, you would have been hanged and put to

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death. He would not have been able to abduct and rape a 10-year-old

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boy, so for him to say the death penalty does not work, for that

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family in my constituency, it is palpable nonsense. It prevents

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those people that have been released from prison going out and

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committing more crimes and creating the victims of crime. When you look

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at Ian Brady, rotting away in jail, us and they're part of you that

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things, he should have swung away on a rope? He is in the right place,

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and it means a life sentence. I don't think... Let me give you the

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specifics of the young Leeds man, been an army, went back to Pakistan,

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and had a problem with a taxi driver. The gun went off, he was

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put on death row and he remained there for years. Due to the

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campaign run, he was released. Otherwise, he would have been

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hanged. But would have been a gross miscarriage of justice. Ruth Ellis,

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the anniversary of a hanging is this week. There was a serious

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miscarriage of justice there. In the specifics, you can make a case

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for something different, but the morality of the issue should be

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considered. It is opposing the principles of the right to life.

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And because it doesn't work, it is not effective as a deterrent.

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Richard not be considered for the European Continent as a whole, and

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the United Nations is running a campaign, which I support, to

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abolish the death penalty wherever it exists. What about the argument

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of the risk of miscarriage of justice? I understand that. That

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isn't an objection to the death penalty in principle, that is the

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right form of justice when people have committed terrible crimes. As

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we have improvements in scientific evidence, the developments in DNA

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and technology, the chances of it being the wrong person is much

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lower than it was 30-40 years ago, and it seems to me as the each --

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the chance of the wrong person gets lower, the arguments are getting

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stronger. What is the argument for capital punishment, apart from

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vindictive justice? It is immoral to argue, as happens in Iran or

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Afghanistan, where stoning is perfectly common, it is be steel,

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and it should be discouraged. Up to encourage the idea that a

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retributive system of justice should be introduced it is wholly

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against the British national character. My view is that when

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people take somebody's life away, the only appropriate form of

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punishment is for them to suffer the same fate. A tooth for tooth?

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When I was visiting death row in Florida, I see people in there with

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their feet up, reading the paper, watching the TV without a care in

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the world. They have got absolutely no problem with what they have done,

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they don't feel guilty about what they have done, and I think there

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is something wrong about people like Ian Brady sitting about,

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reading the paper, watching TV in away their victims will never be

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able to do that. It seems to me when these people have taken

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someone's life away, I do not see where the punishment for that

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should not be their life, too. People will always see prison as a

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soft option, will they not? They have lost their liberty for ever.

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That young man who was interviewed his mother was a victim said a life

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means life. A Life for Life means that the criminal who is guilty of

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what would have been a capital crime now loses his liberty for

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life. That is what it means. doesn't mean life. If life meant

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life genuinely without parole, peopled more -- people might accept

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the current situation. We even saw the chap from Scarborough, he was

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out within 14 years. It doesn't mean life. As the package made

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clear, people have been wrongly convicted and released. The system

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worked! They do have the death penalty and that system works.

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Those people were released, let out of prison in a place where they do

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have the death penalty for the because of those appeals, because

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of the expensive process they have, it costs $23 million by a capital

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case, as opposed to live in prison, which is more cheaper, and more

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effective. It is always an emotive and fascinating debate, but we will

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have to bring it to a close. Now, let's get some more of the

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week's political news in our part of the world with our round-up in

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Reform of the House of Lords that the Westminster agenda this week.

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The resulting Conservative rebellion saw one Lincolnshire MP

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and coalition sceptics led to wreck. Why don't we vote against House of

:48:40.:48:46.

Lords reform tomorrow and then we will and the sad Lant -- life of

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this coalition. We will have a general election. Edward Leigh his

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fellow Lincolnshire MP Nick Boles claimed that put off pensioners

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need to play their part in clearing the deficit. He suggested the and

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of universal benefits. Does anyone here think it would be responsible

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to go on giving a free TV licence to Michael Rimmer? Free

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prescriptions to Lord Sugar? And a winter fuel allowance to Paul

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McCartney? And the debate on white air ambulances should have to pay

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VAT on fuel could lead to the government paying their money back.

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The Commons debate was triggered by motorbike enthusiast can shop from

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York. -- Ken Sharp. A don't want to get into House of

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Rules reform but Edward McMillan- Scott, after the rebellion, do you

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think this is the beginning of the end for the coalition? Of course

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not. It is a private coalition. When Philip Davies goes to the

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United States, he should have been looking at the growth in the

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American economy. That is what the coalition has about. We heard from

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Edward Leigh from the Conservative Party suggesting any opportunity

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you guys get, you should bring down the coalition. Do you agree?

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should take each debate on its merit. I agree with Edward, the

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coalition will last the five years, and then I hope we can have a

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Conservative government in a majority so we can get rid of the

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Human Rights Act, and these other things my constituents have been

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crying out for. Huge tensions of issues like Europe between your

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parties. Up to a point, but what you are seeing is, people are

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expressing themselves volubly, and it is mostly problems for David

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Cameron, his management of his party which has led to fisticuffs

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this week. I will not ask you to defend David Cameron, but is it

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inevitable you will see some referendum on our future in the UK?

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Absolutely. A referendum is inevitable, and I hope that the

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Conservative Party will not resist that for much longer. If David

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Cameron gets ahead of the curve, he will get credit for that.

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Liberals are not frightened of a referendum, but 3.5 million jobs in

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this country depend on the European Union. That's rubbish... We will

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come back in the autumn to continue this argument.

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That's about it from us. In a moment, the Sunday Politics looks

:51:28.:51:31.

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