23/06/2013 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

and Lincolnshire: We investigate why millions of pounds in taxpayers'

money is being spent preventing public sector staff from speaking

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2108 seconds

Hello. This is the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.

Coming up: We investigate why millions of pounds in taxpayers'

money is being spent silencing public sector staff from speaking

out. And we find out why volunteers are

increasingly the filling the gap left by council cutbacks. Let's say

hello to our guests today. Joining me are Martin Vickers MP and

Barnsley Council leader Steve Houghton. Steve Houghton, councils

have been told to prepare for 10% cuts in the spending review on

Wednesday. How will that impact your authority? That will be huge. This

is the fourth year of cups we are looking at. Local government has

already taken a 33% cut. Other departments have taken 12%. If we

are talking about another 10% on top of this, front-line services are

going to be significantly affected. In my borough, we are talking about

closing youth clubs, less cleansing, less ground maintenance and highway

maintenance. Do you think local government will be

disproportionately hit by the Chancellor on Wednesday? I would

hope not. And will be another reduction. I spent many years as a

local councillor in Lincolnshire throughout the period we faced many

cuts year-on-year. Local government has been drastically reduced and has

to be more sharper and effective. We have seen lots of efficiency

savings. I met by local council leaders a couple of weeks ago. I

challenged them on some issues. Reassured me that front-line

services would be secure. Some would call it people power,

others the big society. But it seems that in many areas volunteers are

being encouraged to fill the gap left by cuts to council funding.

James Vincent visited one group six months ago and again last week to

see how they were coping. The argument about whether council

cuts are necessary or harsh will always be there. But it is down to

our councils to decide what is lost from the landscape. There is no room

for efficiency savings any more. We are going to the bones of service

delivery. Closures and mothballing. Two words we have heard a lot of

recently. Front-line services are being affected. Councils tell us

that is not enough money to run things any more. In the process of

balancing the books, the third word that keeps cropping up his

volunteers. Some communities have realised if they want to keep

services open, they will have to keep them running themselves. This

leisure centre was closed by the council two years ago. It lay empty

for a year. Now a group of volunteers have got it back up and

running. One of the pipes burst when the building was shot. We are still

trying to get rid of the moisture. Leisure is seen by some as an easy

target for savings. Councils don't have to provide it. I don't think it

matters what you call it, big society or not. Lots of local people

have come together to try to get a community-based facility up and

running. I don't think you can knock that, whatever part of the political

spectrum you are from. There are ten classes here every week. It brings

them in �600 a month. There is serious sweat and toil to be done

before this can be a viable business plan. Across the country, we have

councils doing innovative work. Public satisfaction with council

services has gone up since 2010. We have to look at new ways of working,

sharing management, outsourcing, sharing services. Looking at the

wider spectrum of opportunities that are out there. Six months on, Martin

and the team have won an award for their work. They are even

diversifying. One of the churches has their services here now. Today

it is a football pitch. On a Sunday, it is a church. There is a lot of

hard work still to do. The gym is not ready yet. It is just a weight

on top of you thinking, can we do this? Will it work? If you think you

can put up with that stress, stand up and have a go. If you don't,

maybe nobody else will. Could some see a time where councils are not

needed at all? Yes, I can. Now an elected councillor, regardless of

the party, they have to ask themselves the question, why am I

going into local politics? What is it that I can actually do?

We saw the volunteers there who succeeded in taking over their

leisure centre. Do we still need local councils to run leisure

services? We need local councils for several reasons. A lot of money is

being spent, irrespective of the cuts. That needs local oversight

responsibility. We need councillors as community leaders to be out there

problem solving, finding different solutions to the issues communities

face. In many ways, weedy -- we need local councillors even more than

before. Do you think this is where the government is wanting to lead

us? No-frills Ryanair style councils which provide basic services?

basic framework of services, but what we want our quality services.

That perhaps means local authorities doing less things now than they did

ten or 15 years ago. I agree with Steve in as much as we need local

authorities for the foreseeable future to provide that

accountability and oversight. Otherwise public money is going off

in different directions without the necessary checking is. So, yes, we

need less frills Ryanair type service but within that you can

still deliver quality. Local councils are increasingly becoming

commissioning bodies. So many services are outsourced. If they are

outsourced, it is still public money and it needs accountability and

oversight on behalf of residents. In that sense, it does not change. For

many councils, we need to bear in mind innovation and creativity. In

my council, we have cut �45 million. Over the next three years, we are

forecasting another �38 million. Another 10% on top of that will be

very difficult. Sharing services and being innovative and creative will

not stop cuts of that magnitude. We need to make sure that any cuts are

there across the country. And it is about the distribution of the cuts

and what is becoming increasingly clear is the North of England is

facing a very different problem from those in the South. Are we seeing a

north-south divide in council funding? I am not sure if there is

evidence for that. Laws of us in the North do need to fight and shout

louder to ensure that the voice of our communities is heard in

Westminster and Whitehall. But I think it's absolutely crucial that

what happens is that, yes, we will live with Slims down local

authorities, but they have to focus and attention on crucial services

such as adult care and other things. Many people will still suspect there

is an awful lot of waste going on. There was a programme on the other

night about limousines and foreign trips will stop how can you cut back

on that stuff? The generally accepted view is local government of

the most efficient part of the public sector. It is not perfect and

there are always things you can do. We are not talking about huge waste

that can suddenly absorbed scale of the cuts we are talking about. There

is a misdirection going on that it would be a problem for councils to

take that kind of money out. But you can always do more. Every year,

councils review themselves. Is it right in these austere

circumstances? What we are asking for is a fair deal. We will make

cuts, but we want to make sure it is fear across the board. In Barnsley,

if you look at health and council funding, that is the big spending in

public spending in the borough, it has been reduced by �50 million. In

North East Lincolnshire, 20 billion per -- �20 million. In Hammersmith

and Fulham, it has gone up by 19 million pounds. In Kensington and

Chelsea, it has gone up by �63 million. I suspect that debate will

go on long after the spending review on Wednesday.

Last year, the Sunday Politics featured claims that a former

Lincolnshire hospital chief was being gagged from speaking out about

patient safety. Since then Gary Walker has become big news and is

seen as one of the prominent NHS whistleblowers. Now it has emerged

that millions of pounds has been paid out in gagging orders to public

sector staff on the understanding they don't speak out about why they

left their jobs. They are supposed to reinvest public

money back into the services that communities rely on. But one

particular aspect of public authority spending has remained in

the shadows. Until now. We still don't know the full extent of the

cost, but we are starting to realise this is a big problem. And new

report by the National Audit Office lifts the lid on compromise

agreements being paid to public sector workers when they leave their

jobs. Guaranteeing that they go quietly. The National Audit Office

found that more than �28 million has been paid out in so-called

compromise agreements. To more than 1000 public sector staff over the

past three years. The average payment was �15,000. The largest,

266,000. The case of NHS whistleblower Gary Walker brought

the issue to national attention. He breached a gagging clause based upon

him by his former employers, the Lincolnshire hospitals trust.

Although the trust said it never tried to stop him from speaking

about patient safety. I think there should be a commission. I think all

those compromise agreements need to be reviewed. We need to know what is

on them, what has been hidden away. This is about protecting people,

patient and society. Public money should not be used to cover things

up. This report is critical of the lack of transparency in these

agreements and the lack of accountability. It technologies that

many of the people who signed them feel as though they are being

gagged. There is a real danger that they are simply used to cover up

mistakes and prevent whistleblowing. Taxpayers should have a right to

know how their money is spent. These agreements should be put in the

public domain and let taxpayers decide if it represents good value

for money. Importantly, that will assure taxpayers that they are not

being used as a cover-up. The union, Unison, says they have become the

norm in out-of-court settlements. Frequently, an employer sees that is

away of stopping a former employee bad-mouthing them in the press. On

occasion, there are more sinister implications and they don't want the

former employee talking about things that the public should know. This

report is just one in a number of disclosures being made about

out-of-court settlements in the public sector. Slowly but surely,

like is being shone onto this little world -- little-known legal world.

Gary Walker is with us now. Were you shocked when you heard that figure

two 28th million pounds? I wouldn't say I was shocked. I think it is

just the start finding out how much has been spent. Over the past weeks,

we have heard that it is more than 28 million. You received half �1

million on the understanding he would not speak out. If you find

them so repugnant, why don't you pay the money back? I did not receive

that amount. That is the cost to the health service for getting rid of

me. In terms of the money I received, most of that went on legal

fees. I don't think I was compensated anything like what has

been said. Do you think this is acceptable? 1000 public sector staff

paid over 28 million to keep quiet about terms of their employment?

is totally unacceptable. I have been pleased with the response we have

heard in the last few weeks. Jeremy Hunt has highlighted the fact he is

strongly opposed to it. We must get to the bottom of this. Billions of

public money is spent in the health service. On the whole, it provides a

good service. And we have to get to the bottom of this. Jeremy Hunt

might complain, but his own department has paid out millions on

compromise agreements. I would hope that that does not happen now. There

have been horrendous revelations in recent weeks. We must get to the

bottom of this. I am sure he will make sure this does not happen in

the future. Do you know how many compromise agreements have been

signed off in recent years? Over the last 12 months, I think it was one.

We have done it before. There is nothing wrong with using them for

the right agreements. Sometimes employee disputes can be elongated.

Finding a compromise between the parties can often save legal fees.

In local government, the average pay-out is less than �10,000. Very

different from what we have seen in the health service. They should not

be used to gag people. The public would not want that. Do you think in

some cases it is acceptable in local councils? I am not sure that is the

case that you mentioned earlier on the dispatches programme. Be found

36,000 compromise agreements. I think there is just as big an issue

in local government as there is the risk across the public sector. The

audit office are just starting to scratch the surface of this. It will

take much more than the report issued today to convince me that

anyone knows what is going on. don't you public these details on

your website? It is published through the National account

office. It is there for others to see. I can say that the cost of this

to local government looks very different from the NHS. Many

conservatives complain about a lack of transparency. But the government

is in the process of scrapping the audit office. Auditing will still

take place, just through a different route. It is vital that independent

accountants are used to get to the bottom of these cases. In your

trust, -- in your case, the trust is insisting that you were never

prevented from speaking out against patient safety. That is simply not

true. I was about to go on the today programme. The BBC had filmed me.

NHS sent me a letter threatening me with legal action if the programme

went ahead. That programme was about patient safety. We have heard about

many horrific cover-ups. You think there are more stories to be told?

think it is just one example with the CQC. Organisations are getting

caught because people are starting to look. Often it is people outside

the NHS who are finding things, like in Morecambe Bay. What should a

government be doing now? The first thing they can do is look at the

number of compromise agreements that are out there and ask what is in.

The Treasury called the fact there is a compromise agreement, but they

don't know what is in it. The National Audit Office could only

find 50 that they could look at. There are tens of thousands of

these. That could be some quite reasonable departures. But there

might be things which are more sinister. The fact is we just don't

know. You are determined to stay on the government's case? I will not

quit until the government know what is going on and they have told us.

Now let's get some more of the week's political news now with our

round-up in 60 seconds. This week, the story is about a Spy

Base in Harrogate. The American run base was exposed as being involved

in some of the most embarrassing espionage leaks in recent years.

They had hacked into satellite communications of Dmitry Medvedev,

the former Russian leader. Hull have made it into the shortlist for the

next city of culture. Hull will compete against Dundee, Leicester

and Swansea. If Hull is successful, it could be the biggest boost to the

city's economy in decades. In Barnsley, there have been protests

over government changes to council tax benefit. The town's council,

along with other local authorities in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, is

taking thousands of people to court for nonpayment of council tax.

Householders are now liable for a percentage of the charge.

What do you make of those scenes outside Barnsley Magistrates' Court?

People protesting against the summons which have been issued by

your council. I understand how they feel. We are in a difficult

situation. The cut in council tax benefit has been passed on to local

government. Many people are suddenly finding themselves with large bills.

I appreciate their concerns. As I counsel, we have to be the law and

collect the tax. If you are struggling, contact us and we will

do all we can to help them pay and get through this difficult period.

Summonses will still be issued? We don't have a choice on that. We will

see more people in court in the coming months. They will say that

they just can't afford to pay their council tax. Council tax has been

frozen for the last three years thanks to the Conservative

government. The government have recognised that this is a difficult

tax and it has imposed on so many households that are finding life

difficult. There has been a sympathetic approach from

government. Yes, I recognise what Steve is saying. We have to be

mindful of the fact that for those who don't pay, they are putting a

bigger burden on the vast majority who do pay. We have got to take

action to recover debt. We are seeing hull fighting it out with

other cities for UK city of culture. I think these accolades

work. The number of cities that are interested in this show that.

Culture, the arts, tourism. They are all huge economic drivers. We wish

hull good luck. What about Cleethorpes and Grimsby? Everybody

knows that we are the centre of the universe. If people are going to

hull underspending time in the river and sea in the best guest houses and