10/11/2013 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on

the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls

the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls

don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage

won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be

talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page

three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with

some balls. Stay. It is good fun for the

In our region: Stay with us in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Far from

being a burden, we look at the claims that European migrants have

actually boosted our economy. row over the super sewer rumbles on.

And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars

auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on

your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night

without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies

didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear

programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another

meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign

Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the

question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good

chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and

negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of

energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal

which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to

be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put

the case for the kind of deal we are looking

the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,

including interests of the whole world,

the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in

this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear

proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about

this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about

prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor

it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.

France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a

disruptive influence in Lebanon I am reasonably optimistic a deal will

be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic

sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have

pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new

president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.

I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these

talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at

official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which

has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly

defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to

go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they

cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows

the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that

with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the

Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could

still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are

interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are

trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who

are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is

that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is

prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about

Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who

is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel

Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card

list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp

rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November

the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt

to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the

Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all

of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again you

talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.

The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have

not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are

doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures

you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the

Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a

rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly

opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel

Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had

to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it

will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is

now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you

say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on

Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband

offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on

Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading

towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I

cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get

over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there

will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are

going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which

constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly

Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a

realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will

have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the

May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as

well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.

Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has

tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.

The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP

conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party

is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with

the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be

joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's

accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that

would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no

risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.

There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this We

will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will

have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the

world and they will create jobs The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi

and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed

concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we

should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this

a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was

a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made

the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say

is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big

businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we

did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they

wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,

there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what

the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation

is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It

depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are

beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses

are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any

potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does

repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the

Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions

to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75,

the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a

renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered

around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will

happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by

Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but

they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going

to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ

them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will

be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to

break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.

-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am

not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the

referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.

Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining

sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29

million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is

technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open

door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29

million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29

million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million

people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will

do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70

million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say

that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 4

without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another

massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such

a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your

anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was

representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it

was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place

this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won

the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that

doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put

together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows

that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped

it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we

are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.

Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible

and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and

crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and

subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration

issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the

European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians

flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.

Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good

for you, it will stir things up If you say to people in poor countries,

you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system

claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You

are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if

only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk

and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European

election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.

The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his

leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He

bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,

delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech

of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and

promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The

next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about

how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the

Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and

character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between

me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was

Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the

tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the

tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the

bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,

here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime

Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who

repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party

faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the

bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off

Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was

stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think

that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be

justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually

help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes

that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being

incentivised by the bedroom tax so basically if you are a council

tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,

then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.

That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96 of

the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a

smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore

they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one

spare bedroom, they are hit by 700 a year extra to pay and that is

completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for

their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not

depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?

Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.

What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of

Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've

come off benefits, of the 233,0 0 affected, it's about 11%. These

people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit

in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits

who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them

will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find

work, or who find work where it s low-paid and need help with their

rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their

family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to

move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,

or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are

low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because

of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was

commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change

and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,

some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have

waited until you have got the independent research, that

independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In

fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their

independent research before they bought into effect something and

imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have

known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could

have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into

smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from

councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move

into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should

have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are

absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into

rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you

can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies

to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The

justification for it, which is people will move, is completely

bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare

reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's

welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are

you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own

supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job

actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said

that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a

young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a

job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as

somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of

unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue

about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need

support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't

have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts

the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --

substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of

benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour

must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,

redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and

the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off we

are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me

saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think

that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've

been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take

them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we

showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles

have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the

Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own

personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to

disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody

else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you

the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the

Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...

But you're... All those who've won their seats against the

Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't

always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,

the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and

these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy

grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,

private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming

year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow

faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was

flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow?

Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit

on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding

the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that

what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the

recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I

understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are

no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the

growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and

living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next

year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to

rise with that amount of growth. What do you do then? We have not

switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way

along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and

we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic

policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns

people have and recognise that they are struggling with the

cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of

living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I

hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,

for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are

worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader

measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that

decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the

country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living

standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line?

There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National

Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused

-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All

right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have

signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press

regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none

will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to

make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not

the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and

basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own

regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If

they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was

decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass

legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up

what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish.

OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press

Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is,

then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is

independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been

turned people's lives upside down turned people's lives upside down

and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us,

then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped

back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and

say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent

and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very

interesting. Thank you for that. That's really interesting that if

they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We

want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and

direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to

ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by

gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first

appeared way back in 1970. That's 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called

for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless

photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three

should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it

at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family

newspaper. Should it stay or go? Go. I will look like the bad guy. It

should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do

not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know

when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age.

Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are

other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every

day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40

years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been

long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to

encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my

children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see

the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can

turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I

think the council should do shelter. It is tipping it down. I

something about their car parks! Mother nature, the human body. It

should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against

it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.

Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby

daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up

his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong

with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page

three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged

22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I

have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?

Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not

hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down

for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You

have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned. I

have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since

the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think

there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from

outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked

yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their

knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to

be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the

circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 1980s

when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their

feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people

buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not

have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is

outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to

ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have

never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been

forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a

boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not

about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement

which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being

in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?

I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not

doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as

there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as

page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be

Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should

be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia,

which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in

this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just

over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading

Welcome to the daily politics for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Coming

up: Far from being a burden, we look into claims that European migrants

have actually boosted our economy. However, Nigel Farage takes a

different view. We will be discussing that with a Conservative

MEP and the Labour MP for Huddersfield. Hello to you both. On

Friday, MPs debated the referendum bill which would pave the way for a

referendum by 2017 on the EU. Assuming if and when it goes ahead,

how will the British people vote? By 2017, we are going to see very much

a new package on offer to the British people about Europe and

David Cameron is very much wanting this legislation that Barry and some

of his pals have been trying to block out in Westminster on Friday.

We want to have this legislation in place. We want to have a referendum

once we have new terms to offer the people and then they will decide. My

own view is that we would I would like to see us staying in the EU. I

think they are going to vote in favour. I draw a parallel with the

Scottish referendum. I think that when push comes to shove, when

people have looked at it hard and looked at things like the CBI

evidence today, going out of Europe would cost each household ?3000.

They will look at the evidence. They will see, coming up to remembrance

Sunday, that we have, for this long period, had a prosperous and a

peaceful Europe which is very important, if you take the long

view. We will talk more in the moment but this week, the bosses'

organisation the CBI warned that pulling out of the European Union

would be a disaster for British business. Now, of course many would

regard that as hot air. But Len Tingle has been speaking to some of

the Yorkshire firms who say millions of pounds worth of investment and

thousands of jobs are reliant on us remaining part of the EU.

This engineering works is probably about as far from the sea as

anywhere in the UK. This Sheffield company says its future lies more

than 30 miles off the coast of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, out in

the North Sea. It makes parts for the wind power industry. There are

thousands of turbines potentially going to be fitted. Each turbine

might be an average cost of anything up to ?4 million. The numbers speak

for themselves. If some proportion of that comes through UK ports and

manufacturing, there is a very big proportion of investment which will

come into the UK market. We don't want to lose that to other regions

in Europe. And that danger is easy to see. These are the latest wind

farms built just off the Humber. Every turbine, every blade has been

manufactured and assembled in Holland, Germany or Denmark. And

these are just tiddlers in comparison to another three giant

projects being planned for a few miles further out to sea, costing

billions to build. At least two manufacturers, including Siemens,

have said they want to setup plants on the banks of the Humber and

employ thousands. But they are being very slow to sign the contracts and

get started. And some worry a referendum on the UK leaving the

European Union is not helping. The CBI have already published a survey

of its members across the UK, that says eight out of ten of the members

asked want to see Britain staying in Europe, albeit with some reform.

That issue, if it is going to be debated, is something that business

and business organisations need to inform. And the competition is

gearing up. Not just European companies but international firms.

On Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, the regeneration industries held

their annual showcase event in Birmingham. Jostling for attention

was a consortium representing over 200 Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

companies who want that work to come to the Humber. With a supply chain

stretching all the way to Sheffield. There are concerns the critical

debate on our EU membership is getting in the way. Our place in

Europe, that is still to be decided. David Cameron was talking

about a referendum on that. What business once is certainty. Things

like that muddy the water a little bit. The port of Grimsby already

demonstrates how valuable the offshore wind industry can be. It is

already the Centre for service and maintenance of existing turbines in

the North Sea. But the real prize is persuading those giant companies,

mostly based in other European member states, to set up assembly

plants here and buy their components from our region 's existing

manufacturers. Most of the manufacturers of wind turbine

systems are based in Europe. The only disadvantage is we will be out

of Europe. We need to work with Europe more to make sure more

investment comes through British ports than through places like

Sheffield and Humberside, where we can deliver to the North Sea

effectively, giving British jobs. These new jobs from wind power have

been talked about for two years and more now. Nobody believes it is

simply hot air. But until contracts and inward investment are finally

settled, the concerns will continue. Do you think many businesses see the

referendum campaign is a distraction? Not really. I think

business is made up of people. People want to have a referendum.

They would like a say on this matter. As far as I'm concerned, the

Prime Minister 's view is shared by an awful lot of other people in

Europe, who would like to see reforms and changes taking place. I

think it is appropriate we should give the people of the country a

choice about this in due course. I find it rather rich... Barry, on

Friday, and his friends, were filibustering, barking at divisions

in the House of Commons, generally obstructing. It doesn't sit

comfortably with the statement that they are happy to have a

referendum. The Labour Party really has got to decide one way or

another. I think asking people what they think on the subject is

something we ought to do. Why do you think Ed Miliband are so reluctant

to commit to a referendum? I think that we've got to make sure that the

referendum is at the right time. At the moment, uncertainty for British

business until 2017 is a disaster. It is one that on the backbenches in

Parliament on Friday, a lot of conservatives were expressing

concern about. This long uncertainty over British business. I've got

wonderful companies in Huddersfield, very keen to expand

even more into offshore wind power. We are all waiting for those

decisions by people like Siemens to be made. What we want is leadership

and we want decisions. What we've got at the moment is weak leadership

because the government has not got a majority and of course, on the

Conservative benches, they are running absolutely deftly scared of

UKIP. Everything they said on Friday, you could see the ghost of

UKIP behind them. We don't get the strong leadership we need. You

running scared? I don't think so. I think Barry is heading in a very

funny sort of way. He said we must make up our minds quickly. This

would be the wrong time to have a referendum, before we have the

reforms and changes which he surely agrees we need in Europe. He and his

pals are playing games in London, trying to obstruct this legislation.

Why did they supported and let's get on with it? We can then carry out

our pledge to give the people the right to have a decision. Let's get

on and given that choice. Surely there is an argument for getting the

referendum out of the way sooner rather than later. And this is David

Cameron 's timetable, 2017, the other side of an election which is

absurd. His backbenchers who were speaking on Friday wanted for 2014,

which sounds more sensible to me. I'm not against the referendum. I

think that we will win a referendum, once we have a proper

system. Tim, I'm afraid, has been in the European bubble a bit too long.

We had a really good short debate. I didn't see any filibustering. There

have been five Fridays. They were standing around trying to delay this

matter. You weren't there and you heard about what happened and you

know exactly there was a good, robust debate, totally taken over by

the government. It is a pretence that it is a Private members Bill.

To be clear, your advice to Ed Miliband would be for him to hold a

referendum next year. I am happy with a referendum to go on as soon

as we can get a proper process in place. At the moment, we have no

government behind this. It has been done by a kind of furtive way,

pressing on a poor Tory backbencher to introduce a Private members Bill.

That man is said not a word today. This is a government bill because

they cannot get it through if it has had government on the face of it.

That shows very weak leadership. What I want is strong leadership.

Let's have it in their manifestoes. It is only 18 months and let's get

on with it. This was a proper Parliamentary day. There has been

plenty of publicity about this. Hardly anybody has failed to

understand this is something... What they will see is the childish

behaviour of the Labour Party. It is not responsible. You have been away

from Westminster for a long time. I've been serving on the European

referendum bill for several weeks. We have done no filibustering. It is

on course. It's on timetable. I don't know what you're getting...

You remember Harold Wilson very well then, Barry. The actually introduced

a referendum which we won. Let's not go over the events of 1975! No

filibustering honours programme. One subject more than any other which

polarises opinion when it comes to our membership of the EU is

immigration. It's the issue that Nigel Farage hopes will catapult

UKIP to the top of the polls in next year's European elections. And once

again immigration prompted a fierce debate on this week's Question Time,

which came from the Lincolnshire town of Boston.

Boston has seen a huge influx of migrant workers in recent years.

Many open up new businesses. But not everyone has welcomed the arrival of

these new families, the majority from Eastern Europe. It is a subject

that not surprisingly played centre stage on this week 's question

Time. My family have lived in Boston for 200 years now. We have to fight

for services that seem to get handed to newcomers on a plate. How can

this be right? What this town has been through is a population

explosion over the course of the last 15 years. That is a direct

result of our membership of the European Union. People come here to

work. You do not talk facts. You talk prejudice. Everyone can come.

You scaremonger and you put fear in people 's hearts. Last year, Dean

Everett held an anti`immigration protest in the town. It prompted the

local council to publish a report on the effect of immigration in this

part of Lincolnshire. However, he says things have not changed. I

still think there is a wider issue. The fact the government have let so

many people in now, they are saying English kids don't want the work but

they can't get the work because Polish nationals have taken a work.

Until they create jobs for these people to have, they will be a lot

of and implement in this area. I spoke to this person who speaks `

teaches Ingush and comes from the Lithuanian community. He... They are

very hard`working, especially the Lithuanian community. They pay taxes

and they do a very good impact. I think the net contribution... A

report this week claimed that immigrants who arrived after 1999

with 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than

people born in the UK. Those from the European economic area had paid

34% more in taxes than they received in benefits. What matters for

political decisions is whether on average immigrants from these

countries have made a negative or a positive contribution. Our findings

are that those immigrants that arrived after 1999 established that

that contribution has been positive and quite remarkably so. UKIP

Celebrated winning 16 seats earlier this year but six of those

councillors, including the group 's former leader, have now been kicked

out of you kept due to a dispute with the party leadership. `` UKIP.

The leader is hoping to keep squabbles at bay if he is going to

cash in on the floats next year. Why do you think so many voters

don't trust the mainstream parties on immigration? None of us have been

very good at talking about it. It has been a no`no. Don't talk about

immigration because if you do people will say you are a racist. There has

been a not nice atmosphere for a long time. I think there is a

healthy discourse going on at the moment. I think we should talk about

it. On the one hand, bright people who want to work from all over

Europe come here. You cannot blame them for coming here because they

have very high unemployment in Spain and Portugal and other parts of

Eastern Europe. They see Great Britain as a comparatively well

growing economy and they come here for work. You've got to balance that

with the fact that a lot of young people coming out of school now,

with not very high qualifications, are facing great, are facing great

connotation for a job. Let's talk about that rather than pretend that

it isn't happening. UKIP have made you all toughen up your policies on

immigration, haven't they? Derry 's long memory will probably include my

Tim is the immigration listed in the UK. That was under John Major. My

view then, as it is now, is that we should welcome people who come to

this country, where there is a mutual benefit, both to this country

and to them themselves. If you take a look at our region in Yorkshire,

it's the third nicest place in the world. I think that is too low down

the list. Nevertheless, our region needs people to come and skills to

be exchanged across Europe, including into our U region in

Yorkshire. I think we should take, if you like, a sensible, practical

view on the immigration question. The behaviour of UKIP is very

unfortunate because it is trying to get at peoples emotions, rather than

looking at what facts are and rather than looking at what the benefits

could be. Barry, you say you want to have a debate about immigration, but

why were Labour not having a debate about immigration in 2004 when you

opened up our borders to the rest of Europe? The borders have been

consistently opened as the European Union has grown. The free movement

of labour was at the core of the European experience. I don't think

we talked through with our people enough about what implications of

that were going to be. Tim is absolutely right. I remember when he

was immigration minister and the fact is, Britain is a very

attractive place to come to. It's a wonderful country. It has good,

sound laws, we have the rule of law, all the institutions that people

around the world admire. We are a magnet. That does mean a lot of

people want to come here. I find it very hard not to worry about the

opportunities that some of our young people coming out of the workplace

have because they have a tremendous amount of competition that you, I

and Tim certainly didn't have when we came out of school. Let's think

about it, talk about it and see what we can do about it. Are we going to

get a big influx of Romanians and Bulgarians in the New Year? We

already have quite a lot of them and seasonal workers and schemes. They

will have free access from January the 1st. The point is, it is being

whipped up into a big thing. My own view... That is why they are getting

the votes. It's on the wrong premise. We must retain controls, we

must decide what is best for our country but that should not include

pulling power drawbridge completely and not allowing people to come

here, to bring their skills to help us in the same way as our young

people want opportunities to go elsewhere in European Union and

syrup filled with their skills. Let's get some more of the week's

political news now. David Tratch has our round`up in 60 seconds.

A Sunday Mirror investigation has revealed what MPs claimed in fuel

bills for the London homes. Two MPs from our region work towards the top

of the league. Edward Leigh was sixth from the top, claiming ?3337.

Labour 's Wakefield MP claimed ?2182. This Barnsley MP raised in

the Commons what the Labour MP played a major role in initiating

last month. New laws on plain packaging for cigarettes as a way of

stopping teenagers starting lifelong habits. Sadly, the government will

not act to introduce plain packaging. In mass petition was

handed over about rural communities are earning less in salaries, paying

more in council tax and receiving fewer government grants.

Barry, do you think it is right that taxpayers have to find the energy

bills for MPs and second homes? You have claimed ?680 for your gas bill.

Is that right? Dreadful. I guess so. I put all that in the hands of a

member of staff that works with the independent regulator and all that

is done automatically. I have to say, I do not get involved with

that. All I do, with the glare of publicity on expenses as it is these

days, we have an independent regulator, I've conform to the

rules. This is a silly story from the daily Mirror. Do you have these

perks in the European Parliament? We do and we have an open... By group

set up a right to know process. It's on the web, precisely what we spend

and so on. Transparency and open sea are right. That is mostly the case

with Westminster. After this episode on Friday with a referendum Bill,

they will be able to paying substantially more in a hot air

balloon Bill! I thought Beaujolais was the main source of energy at the

European Parliament! I thought it was a gravy train! Why do we need

plain packaging on cigarettes? Because all the research shows that

the attractive packaging attracts young people. Smoking kills you. It

shortens your life and is a dreadful thing. I've always been

anti`smoking. We know that if you get trapped in, it's addictive. If

you get addicted young, it's really hard to give up later. Plain

packaging would help. I think there is a certain PR adviser in number

ten who has been behind resisting this. Lynton Crosby... Why are the

Tories opposed to it? Because they feel it is necessarily going to

agree what we all want which is to discourage young people from smoking

in the first place and not to encourage adults to smoke too much.

I don't think that packaging effect would have any positive effects at

all. All the research shows it does. It depends where it's coming from.

It is health act commission Mark MPs still get a snuff allowance in the

House of Commons, I found out this week. Thank you both for your time

today. With that, let's go back to Andrew Neil in

We learned this week that no more warships will be built at

Portsmouth, the home of the Royal Navy since the days of the Mary Rose

and Francis Drake. But has the city been sacrificed to save jobs on the

Clyde in Scotland? Is England the loser in an effort to keep the

United Kingdom intact? Let's speak to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign

for an English Parliament. Is England the loser in this attempt to

doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English

Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to

stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best

outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?

We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is

an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the

people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for

independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be

dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without

true representation. The union continues but it continues without

Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional

position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional

position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We

want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained

or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.

Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If

that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,

it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the

union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by

England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,

wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny

list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to

the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very

concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched

British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable

situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with

Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about

trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile

situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation

separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and

Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I

want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were

sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to

remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.

Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become

a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England

to have their representation - representation that looks at

policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern

Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way

forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system

might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you

want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is

implement the process is to get their representation for England. I

would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way

to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.

Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the

British government is trying desperately to save the union by

giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this

business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been

pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the

union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a

disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a

minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow

its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to

admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be

dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a

Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a

killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in

this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.

And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial

area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has

backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in

Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English

nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist

in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed

to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to

win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to

imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more

autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David

Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any

vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,

you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is

economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the

United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this

government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of

being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case

of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave

That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you

like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you

happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last

week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He

said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,

what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll

hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I

have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?

Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used

drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years

ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few

times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I

tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around

you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that

get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession

by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once

smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that

she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about

them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not

deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant

to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat

his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a

generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went

through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables

and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely

honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy

is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was

saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet

Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,

you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you

cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing

and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is

enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair

or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be

mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There

was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He

was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the

line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.

Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will

surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes

on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those

who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.

The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,

early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages

will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not

be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this

trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very

careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a

certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled

before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory

strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement

or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.

-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions

about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.

They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be

surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it

is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be

cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two

at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.