15/06/2014 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.

The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed.

The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun.

But the country now faces a de facto partition.

What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything?

It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum.

But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty?

Both sides join us to go head to head.

I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of

that? Karl McCartney, the Conserv`tive MP

even Westminster, we'll be asking Karl McCartney, the Conserv`tive MP

for the city of Lincoln. On the Sunday politics in Yorkshire

and Lincolnshire, Turkey's voting for Christmas, UKIP's MEPs `rrive in

Brussels and say they The Sunni Islamist army known

as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern

and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked

like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has

now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army

and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that

a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri

al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation

of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi

army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or

surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a

humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to

consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts

of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias

are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way

partition a real possibility with The US is moving another

of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf,

though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help

its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports

that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's

diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who

are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS

is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure

Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence.

What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not

recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they

could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as

far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of

Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims,

along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006,

2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was

called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and

bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in

large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their

side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is

a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer

that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia

Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and

this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and

this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We

can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started,

South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What

is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a

consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are

trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major

city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the

power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys

in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would

like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could

take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they

have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these

newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will can

effectively counter-attacked. But that is what will happen in the next

week or two. We will see increasingly large and serious

government counter-attacked trying to retake those places, and I fear a

really difficult, bloody Syrian style street by street battle for

some of these urban centres. I would like to have a look at this map

because the Kurds, as I mentioned, they are consolidating their

position in the autonomous region in the north. The Islamist are taking

over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim West. And of course the Shia Muslim

are still dominant in control of Baghdad and in parts of the south

and east. Back to me looks like the beginnings of the partition of Iraq.

-- back to me. Well, it is, but we have to caveat it in a few ways

Firstly, there are millions of people in Iraq, so-called sushi

combined families, who do not fit easily into the pattern. Do we see

millions of people becoming refugees under this scheme? There would be a

lot of human tragedies if people really did try to enforce this type

partition. Secondly, there are Sunni Muslim communities in the south of

Baghdad, those places, once again, a lot of misery and fighting will

occur if people try to enforce a de facto partition. There are still an

awakening of forces. They are on the side of the government. We heard

about one group in Samarra of Sunni Muslims fighting on the same side.

It's a complex picture. They factor, it does look like a partition, and

if it goes further in that direction it will. And partition will always

be messy because people end up on the wrong side of the lies.

Finally, the big thing on that map, Iran, a huge place, a huge border

with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now becomes a key factor. It is becoming

a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I was in Baghdad a few months ago I

did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform

They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers

have been never some time and they are also said to protect the

political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think

more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise

the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall.

Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card.

Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003.

He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing

That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia.

This morning he entered the debate about what should be

My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11

happened and you have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia,

Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would still have had a

major problem in Iraq. You can see what happens when you leave the

dictator in place, as has happened with Bashar al-Assad. The problem

doesn't go away. What I'm trying to say is, we can rerun the debates

about 2003, and there are perfectly legitimate points on either side,

but where we are in 2014, we have do understand that this is a regional

problem, but a problem that will affect us.

And I'm joined by the former Foreign Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown,

Here in London are James Rubin, he was chief spokesman

for the State Department under Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman,

she represents the Kurdistan Regional government in the UK.

Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, we don't intervene in Syria, it s a

shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed

question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right.

Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an

intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him to stay quiet during

moments like this, because it does drive a great surge of people in the

other direction. The fact is, what has been missing in western politics

towards the Middle East throughout both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a

drive to build an inclusive, democratic centre which is secular

and nonsectarian. That has been missing amongst the threats of

invasion Manon invasion, we have just constantly neglected the

diplomatic nation-building dimensional this. I want to come

onto what is happening on the ground. I want to begin with what

the Western response by me, and by that we mean the United States,

because of it doesn't do anything, nobody will do anything. All of the

signals I see coming out of the White is that Barack Obama has no

appetite for intervention -- out of the White House. I don't think he

does have an appetite. He would be very unlikely to do anything very

large. He might feel pressured to act because of the fact that this

particular group, this Al-Qaeda inspired group, fits into the

strategy he has pursued in Yemen and Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use

drone strikes against individual terrorists. So it is possible that

the threat of ISIS in the region and the West in general might inspire

him to act, but the idea he will do enough, militarily, to transform

Iraq from its current state of civil War into something along the lines

that Mark was talking about, nation-building diplomacy, a big

operation, I don't see President Obama sees his historic mission as

having got the United States as out of it. Leave it to the Pacific,

perhaps. What would the Kurds like the West to do? First of all, in

Kurdistan we face a huge humanitarian crisis. We already have

had bought a quarter of a million Syrian refugees and we were

struggling to cope with that. And now we have at least double that

number of refugees coming from Mosul. First and foremost, we are

calling on the international community to help us with that. So

we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe

not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent

on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I

think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be

supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the

federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is

first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily

intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance,

provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more

targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the

disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be

abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires.

But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us.

We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have

seized some of the American kit We are not asking for weapons, but we

ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark,

this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and

from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through

to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and

Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made

earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic

divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for

this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise

although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq

instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century

boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable

because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc

and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the

last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are

we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from

here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and

thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it

is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto

Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the

idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination

going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may

end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded

with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key

thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two

groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done

is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns.

We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni

extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the

great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go

into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now If

in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability

that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to

have to do something about it. The danger is that power will

spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your

southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all

making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never

be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three

countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a

countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose

federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what

it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the

make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the

political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside

their differences or there will be problems. This provides that

opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I think

this is the end of a rack as we know it. If anything resembling a

caliphate emerges, that is very destabilising for the region itself.

More so I would suggest than even the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in

Afghanistan. At some stage, you have to assume that they will be coming

for us. That is correct. This is extremely dangerous. The only way

forward is for these political groups to talk to each other and

find a compromise that allows the rates of cinemas and minorities in

Iraq to be protected within or the rates of cinemas and minorities in

Iraq to be protected with an autonomous federal-state. Any

support for the government must be premised on that. There is no

military solution for this which is in during -- there is no military

solution for this. There must be serious political negotiation, not

with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim moderates, to form a more

representative government. This is the last chance for Iraq. I think we

are all saying that that is going to need to be some major western

leadership to make some big decisions here for the future of the

region. I am concerned that after Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is

quite world-weary, quite world-weary. It does not seem to be

giving leadership. Certainly we are not seeing that in Europe. I am

deeply concerned that we are not going to take the leadership role

that needs to be taken. These are big issues. When Britain and France

carved up the Middle East, they were world powers, operating as global

powers, and without that global leadership by somebody, this is just

going to get worse and worse. I think we will leave it there, thank

you very much. The danger is that power will

spread. This could grow in power. It is just under 100 days until the

referendum on Scottish independence. So, for once,

it'll be a long hot-summer But the campaign isn't

just getting heated. Scotland's best-selling author

announced she was giving the unionist cause a million pounds

this week, she received Independence supporters online,

so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor

and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together

campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so,

and this week he criticised Conservative ministers

for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival

approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to

engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from

Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio,

and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you

first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond

not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the

debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number

of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling

themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a

fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably

total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not

to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty

people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there

are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the

Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to

people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do,

and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a

democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is

characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out

of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get

to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and

you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I

think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging

in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we

want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United

Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack,

particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to

support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on

social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site.

We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come

This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What

is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I

understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but

it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that

we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works,

it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was

varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people

think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against

Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of

four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling,

Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to

the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most

incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself.

Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning.

Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting

fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if

people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and

opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the

accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK

Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars

and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter.

How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often.

Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is

running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than

Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair

Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il

and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need

to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It

is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I

think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You

have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear?

The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats.

You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be

flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at

all and neither is the campaign The campaign has asked questions and I

think it is legitimate to ask questions of the people proposing

such a fundamental change. People care about the economy, their jobs,

their families. What would happen to them if they leave the rest of the

United Kingdom. I think it is legitimate to ask questions. I

refuse to be asked of scaremongering. People deserve

answers. The yes campaign is equally guilty of some of the most

outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you are both scaremongering. Blair

Jenkins, the First Minister said of the cyber nationalists, that they

are just Daft folk, as if they were mischievous little children. It is

worse than that. When you look at what they say, they are twisted

perhaps even evil minds. I would not disagree with his comments, but they

are directed at just a small number of people. The story of this

campaign is not the story of what people are saying on Twitter. Around

Scotland, lots of people are getting engaged in debate to have been tuned

out of the political process. Today, we have 47% support for the yes

campaign. The movement in the campaign is towards yes. People know

we have a better campaign, a vision for Scotland. The latest poll of

polls does not show that. Both sides, you always take the opinion

polls that show you in the best light. All politicians do that.

Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not just negative, it is patronising.

You make dubious claims that Scots would be ?1400 better off by staying

in the union, and then you say that the kids use the money to scoff 280

hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. The fate of the nation is in your

hands and that is the best you can do? I think you will find that the

campaign is something that we are taking the message to people. Then

why are you talking about hotdogs? I do not. The campaign did. We are

taking a positive message to people across Scotland about the benefits

of the United Kingdom. We believe we are stronger and more secure and

more stable, being part of that family of nations that is the United

Kingdom. At the same time, we have the strange and power over things

like education and transport. I understand that. I am not doing the

issues today, I am talking about the tone of the campaign. I have one

very important question. Who would you supporting last night in the

England-Italy match? I was not watching the game. I would be

delighted to see England do well in this tournament. I have Argentina in

the office sweepstake. I have to keep some attention on them, but I

would be delighted to seeing Clint do well. That is because you think

it will help your campaign. It will annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I

was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal.

Now most of you probably missed last night's football match

between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and

England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told.

But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever

and with speculation about the fitness of each political

party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players.

Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.

This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football

stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for

these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon

and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian

barbecue. And at Westminster they're

turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers.

We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start

collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet?

collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I'm afraid

collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got

Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next

to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and

vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very

popular since she fell out with him out how

to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation

about him taking on him in Then there are rumours of a

reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any

swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? David Cameron has

also got to replace the EU commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is

standing down. Does he go with the favourite

the former health secretary Or the grassroots choice,

Martin Callanan, the Tories old Or does he rehabilitate

Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? Do you fancy being European

Commissioner? I would rather be spending the money on the world s

poor and spending it well. Glad to hear it. Happy collecting.

Right, there must be some Labour stickers out there.

You don't want to swap Ed Balls any of the others? Can't I keep them

all? This is almost the perfect team.

There have been grumblings about the fitness of the Shadow

And Ed Miliband's got a kicking in Liverpool after posing

I'm told grown men are meeting up in pubs for sticker swaps -

With Danny Finkelstein - Tory peer and Times columnist,

He would be the card I would not want to trade. Do people want to

trade him in? I don't think anybody wants to trade him in at the moment.

He is the best person to lead the Labour party and will lead us into

the next election. There's been a lot about Michael Gove, and he's

very combative. That's been a huge strength as an education Secretary,

despite the fact it's brought in trouble. I would think the prime

minister would tell him not to get himself into peripheral battles at

the moment but stick to what has been successful. I haven't got Nick

Clegg, but I got me. Controversy amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I

need to give away me in return for Nick Clegg. That would be far

better. There you are. Some local parties are holding

meetings about his leadership, but at one in Cambridge this week

they voted to stick with him. You have got a Euro Commissioner.

Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do

that? What is the significance of that? Very significant. Happy

collecting. These beauties are popping up

everywhere, but sadly they won't Adam is still doing the samba around

Westminster as I speak. I'm joined

by three journalists who've been furiously swapping stickers

throughout the show, they certainly weren't allowed to stay up to watch

the football, it's Nick Watt, We will talk about Labour after the

break, and I want to concentrate on the Tories, but the moment, Nick,

senior Tories are saying privately that they might win next May. They

are beginning to dream the dream. So why are they doing all this

jockeying? I think the jockeying for the leadership is about a year old.

What stoped it up was when Theresa gave a speech to the conference and

people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking

too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that

drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on

manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he

believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa.

It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the

economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff.

Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails

of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more

popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an

extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while

never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing

government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant

piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it --

political Charente. piece of political Charente and they

would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I

have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots

taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read

strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people

watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on

for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe

brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so

much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris

Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth,

they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this

week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove

had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he

said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative

party, George Osborne is my man Theresa May set out her credo two

years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it

just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but

I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset,

you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That

is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit

carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

UKIP's MEPs arrive in Brussdl and be talking about Ed Miliband's

UKIP's MEPs arrive in Brussdl and say they aim to make themselves

redundant as soon as possible. There's a distinct European

flavour to our programme today. Later we'll find out how people

in Lincoln's twin town in Gdrmany Our guests today are newly`dlected

UKIP MEP Jane Collins, the Labour MP And in our Lincoln studio is

Karl McCartney, the Conserv`tive MP First, this week saw the arrival

in Brussels of a record number of UKIP MEPs, following the party's

success in the European elections. Their main aim, they say,

is to get rid of their own jobs For more than 40 years

the union flag has flown in the heart of Europe's political

capital, but for how much longer? The UKIP MEPs arriving in Brussels

for the first time say they are committed to ensuring Britahn leaves

the EU at the earliest opportunity. We're the turkeys voting

for Christmas. We're the party that

want to be out of it. We want to be made redundant,

the sooner the better. Some may question why an anti`EU

party should turn up in Brussels at all, and take the generots

salary and expenses package the UKIP don't really have

a proper set of policies. Here we are in a Parliament where

committee work is very important, working on legislation ` trxing to

stop it, of course, as well, that is very important ` but you know, their

history so far has been not to attend, not to do very much,

leave it to the rest of us to do the hard work that

represents the best interests of Yorkshire and the Humber in my case,

and the country more generally. You're here and you have to

represent the people who voted for There is no point saying "I'm not

going do anything, I'm not going to vote, I'm going to be hostile",

that won't improve things. If I can be of use

on a committee and push forward legislation that is going to be

productive to our country, then I will do that, but I am cert`inly not

going to add to the deluge For Amjad Bashir it's

a big career change. He was born in Pakistan, and came to

Bradford at the age of eight, He spent most of his working life

in business. Many might wonder why,

as the son of an immigrant, you represent a party that has such

a hard line against immigration As a party we are not

against immigration. What we're saying is the right type

of immigration, that's going to do good for the immigrants comhng in,

and also for our country, that they have the skills wd need to

better our country and our society. So unlike most jobs where pdople

hope for a long career, these newly elected MEPs ard already

looking for the exit. Jane Collins how was your fhrst week

in Brussels? It is the den of iniquity your party makes ott? Think

it was interest, I have to say, it was more, it wasn't more of a

Parliament it was more of a city, a European massive city. It is so

immense. My induction was what I thought it would be, form after form

after form and plenty of red tape, but it was an interesting fdw days.

Trick trick, how will the arrival of anti`EU MEPs not just UKIP but from

other countries, how will that shape the future of the Continent? The

message was sent by the public, UKIP won fair and square, three seats in

Yorkshire. I hope they won't make a laughing stock of us, but I think

there is a big job to do representing Britain and I hope they

do it in especially Yorkshire, there are over 300,000 jobs in Yorkshire,

which depend on the European Union, we have to make sure we get more

jobs and not imperil the onds we have got. Let me put to Karl

McCartney first of all, is David Cameron flogging a dead horse,

trying to get a better deal out of the EU? Look at the problems he has

had with Mr June Kerr. I I don't subscribe to your point of view

What David Cameron has done certainly in the last four xears is

as the Prime Minister is make sure he stood up for the country's

interest in Europe. He is doing that again. We don't want to see somebody

who is for more as a pro federalist who wants to see more integration in

the EU. The Conservative Party is the only party offering a

referendum. Jane Collins wh`t do you make of Jon's point that yotr

anti`EU stance is going to cost jobs in Yorkshire and the Humber. Totally

disagree. You don't have to be part of a political union to trade.

Employment is based on business We only export below 10% of our

country's goods to the EU. The rest we export worldwide, so no, I

totally disagree. Jon, your guilty secret is you were part of the no

campaign in the 1975 referendum you were a big player. I might be the

only person who remembers it in this studio. Look, I make no apologies

for the ct fa. I was against the Common Market, I was the secretary

of the vote no campaign, we had the referendum, we lost the votd, I was

worried about losing the links to the Commonwealth, I worried about

what happened to the countrx. We lost the life. Life has movdd on and

there are two million peopld, British people working or lhving in

the European Union, and as H said, there is jobs in Yorkshire, 170 000

manufacturing jobs here in Yorkshire, look, some of thd things

I said at the time about thd Common Market was going wrong, would go

wrong I think I was correct on, and so we feed to do some more reform,

but I think people in our area want politicians who deal with the

bread`and`butter issues and that means securing jobs and protecting

the ones we have got. Karl Karl McCartney, your part of the world,

is Lincolnshire better off hn or out of the EU? I don't subscribd to

Jon's point of view. He is ` proud Yorkshireman, but on this hd is

unsound. He mentioned the Commonwealth, which to me is a very

important organisation, that we are part of and more countries want to

be part of too, many in Whitehall and many in Government have been a

bit too pro European for thd past 25 years, and longer and have turned

their backs on the Commonwe`lth and other, it is to the detrimentof our

country, jobs, yes, there is important work to be done and trade

to be done with Europe but we shouldn't turn our back on the rest

of world. Would you campaign to come out if it happens in 2017 I want to

see a renegotiation of things that have gone on in the past 15 years of

a Labour Government when people like Jon and his colleagues made some

criminal decisions that werd detrimental to the good of the

country. Do you want to respond to that I think criminal is slhghtly

over the top. There are manx things we might have done differently but

we are no longer living in that time. We have moved on. What Labour

is ear clearly saying is we have to reform the European Union as it is

now and we need to move forward What people want is a fairer

country, and there are lots of things going on which are not fair

which need to be changed. I have to pull youen on one thing, yot

mentioned you have to look `fter people's job, 13 years of unlimited

mass immigration which has caused wage compression, it has catsed job

displacement, and it has catsed a great deal of social unrest, so how

can you say you arelooking `fter the working man and woman? You `re not.

By the way, I think it is extraordinary that one of the UKIP

MEPs has run a business which appears to have employed seven

illegal immigrants. We know he is disputing it, but that is the

allegation that has been made. It is odd that has happened. Let ts not go

over that again. We will cole back to you Karl McCartney. You will be

interested in our next item. We are asking if the UK is out of step in

the way we think about the DU, well we decided to test the water.

So is the UK out of step with the rest of Europe

our reporter Sharon Edwards went to the German town twinned with

As you will find out Sharon tested the local wine as well as the water.

This is Lincoln's twin town of Neustadt, part of Germanx's

For seventh generation wine grower Stefan Christmann, life

When I took it over from my parents we just sold the wines locally

in Germany, but now we export about 40% of our wines and ht's a

perfect thing that the Common Market is there, and that we can sdll the

wines to Sweden, to Italy, to Spain, and to a lot of different

This region has changed hands time and again, as countries have

Stefan says it's a history that must never be repeated, and the DU has

When I see how Europe works, in world crisis,

I would understand that Europe would be much more on one hand powerful,

but on the other hand also lore responsible to, to a lot of things,

At the end, it should stand something lhke

the United States of Europe, but I think that will at least another 20,

40, 50 years, but at the end I would say that should be a goal for us.

Back in the UK, the very idea of an EU federation

state is strongly resisted by politicians across the spectrum but

here many people want their country to drink deeper from the EU cup

We can only go on together, because Europe can only stand together

against the others, for exalple China, the powerful China or Russia.

I see myself as a European and wish that as well.

Pro`EU parties dominate Gerlan politics.

Angela Merkel's Christian Ddmocrats celebrating victory

But even Germany now has its own anti`EU party.

Alternativa took seven seats in Brussels.

It is arguing for reform of the euro and tighter immigration controls.

We suggest to have controversial discussions how we can consolidate

the eurozone, to allow other people, other states to leave it, to come

up, you know, because for the southern countries the euro is too

strong and for the Germans ht is too weak, so we could,

Beneath the surface in Neustadt there are some concerns

Stefan has watched Neustadt change over the past decade.

It has to be more and more control over things like over immigration.

It's not allowed to be that easy to come in, and get benefits.

Neustadt bears the hallmarks of a traditional Germany,

but like its country, its identity is closely aligned with that

of the EU and most people are happy to see that relationship dedpen

Karl McCartney we heard frol Lincoln's twin town of Neustadt Why

do the Germans have a different attitude to the EU as us? P`rtly

because they will part of the euro and at this part in time thd Germans

do very well out of it. If they had their own currency they would be

devaluing it to keep their dconomy on track. The fact is that the rest

of the European southern st`tes are having to borrow to buy the products

that the Germans can sell cheaply and they are doing well out of it, I

would imagine most people in Germany think that is a good thing. The EU

will have to look different than it does Azerbaijan it does tod`y. I am

amazed that the euro technocrats have imagined to get their train

back on the track and furthdr down the line after what happened in

2007, 8, 9. The Germans and the French want to see a Europe`n

superstate but it won't include those countries that are melbers of

the EU at this point of timd. The southern states will have the leave.

It is like a Ponzi scheme. Ht is unsupport #7b8. You saw in that

report there are disgruntle voices when it comes to immigration, is

that the issue dominating Etropean politics at the moment? There is a

big problem, if you get employers bringing people in, undercutting

existing wages and condition, if you get people coming in, taking

benefit, when they haven't paid into the tax system, it underminds the

European project and it is wrong. And it should be stopped. I have to

doubt that that is a problel where ever we are, across the European

Union, and you can understand how people feel about it. Polithcians

have let, I think, the publhc down, we have do more. How can we stop it?

It is part of their policies that free movement of migrants and when

we have said in recently, D`vid Cameron has tried to stop the

migrants coming over and imlediately accessing benefits, then we are

getting taken to court by the European Court of Human Rights,

so... You will have to sort it out. That is what we are there to do We

are snookered. While we part of the EU we can't control migration and we

can't control what happens when hay come over here, that is European

policy. I don't see it quitd like that. What is happening employers

are taking advantage of loopholes which have emerged to drive down

wages and conditions here in Britain. Let us speak about Britain,

we have to do something abott it. We have got clear policies and it can

be delivered. Most people I know are not against foreigner, they are

against being undermined. They are against people coming over taking

benefits when they are not dntitled to them. Can David Cameron really

promise to control immigrathon, when we continue to be members of the EU?

I think we have done, we have proved we have done. It comes back to a

point where I was making before and also if you like, the UKIP

politician in your studio w`s making, the UKIP, the point that was

being made about uncontrolldd immigration that was a feattre, if

you like, of 13 years under a Labour Government. Even somebody h`s

important within the Labour Party as Lord Mandelson said they got it

wrong, it wasn't just we had an open door policy, they sent people across

the world to say come to thd UK it is the land of milk and hondy and we

are reaping what they sewed. That is something I am proud the

Conservative Party has been part of. Jon, in the election campaign when

the lady in Rochdale complahned about immigration you heard Gordon

Brown's reaction, he said she was a bigot. People are entitled to

express views about the condition of the country. There are millhons of

people in the country, they work hard that, I play by the rule, and

they feel they are being screwed over by the system why others are

getting away with what nay describe as murder, and that makes the system

very unfair, Labour will cole forward and is doing with a series

of proposals to try to resolve that central problem which faces all of

us. We need immigration, spdak to the farmers, the food producers in

your area, they will tell you we need migrants. We need some

immigration, we need some mhgration, nobody is going to argue with that,

what we are saying it has to be controlled. And it has, OK, the

farmers have the people working on the land, that is fine, but it needs

controlling, it needs making sure that these people are looked after,

they are not abused by gang leaders, because it is open to all sorts of

different types of abuse whdn they come over here and Tay are not

legally employed and they are given below the working wage. We will have

to move on. We need to get lore of the week's political news. Len has

our round up in 60 seconds. Allegations merged of some Bradford

schools being caught up in the so`called Trojan horse row of

governors trying to impose ` strict Islamist agenda on children and

teachers. One leader said there is no evidence it is happening. The

police have looked a it. Thd council have looked after it. We have issues

we dealt with when they werd raised with us. Government says ond billion

will be spent on improving trains in the north. So passengers on the

Cleethorpes and Grimsby service to Manchester Airport want to know why

they face cuts. Transport connections are vhtal not

just to Manchester but to other cities. How is this for cross`party

cooperation? 20,000 feet up a mountain in Equador, Labour's John

Mann Greg Mulholland and Tr`cey Crouch raising money for thd Royal

British Legion. Well done to those MPs. If Greg

looks hard from the top of that mountain he may spot a Liberal

Democrat voter. Karl McCartney. On to serious matters. We have heard

about the various Trojan horse revelation, Michael Gove saxs he

wants schools to teach Brithsh values. How would you defind British

values? Well, I think we ard a proud traditional nation, there is various

historical facts that defind Britishness but also a modern

outlook, I am behind what Mhchael Gove has been saying what wd should

be doing. Part of the probldm goes back to 2008, 2009, and Whitehall, I

think Whitehall hasn't dealt with the issue as soon as it shotld have

done. Ofsted need to look at their processes and why they perh`ps

haven't dealt with it as quhckly as should have been done. How would you

define Britishness? He is rhght We have to have some sort of cohesion

where the children feel part of the society and the history that goes

back a long way, but I think a good start would be to teach English as a

first language. Let us move on the transport. The Government is

promising 1 billion investmdnt in the railway network in the north,

that has to be a good thing? It would be great to have railways that

connect everywhere. I have hn Hemsworth, I have a railway line, a

Station Road, the only thing we haven't got is a station.

That is going to take seriots investment to get that line up and

running? The trains run up `nd down it all the time. They are rtnning

backwards and forwards, there is no station but a Station Road. There is

lots of places, and seriously, we want to be able to get from

Hemsworth, to shopping or to work in Leeds or Sheffield or Doncaster and

people having to get into the car more often than not, it is causing

pollution and congestion, ldt us get serious investment in the north of

England, linking the north together, because we, if we are linked

together we will have a stronger and better economy. Karl McCartney, the

rail minister says there will have to be trade offs when it coles to

investment. Less popular lines. Is that acceptable to you I can

understand John's point bec`use any MP wants to do the bestto their

constituents. Transport isilportant to me. That is why I have a

successful track record of dnsuring there is investment in the road

network but importantly the rail network as well. So I can understand

from Jon's point of view anx good MP wants to do that. It is verx

important, but as part of the Transport Select Committee H was

elected on to about 18 months ago we released a report that noted that

there is a lot more spent on transplant infrastructure in London,

than there is further north. And why not scrap HS2? We haven't got time

to get int to HS2. We will leave that for another day. Thank you for

your time. You have been watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire

and Lincolnshire, now let us go back to Andrew in London.

There are big changes afoot in the EU following last month's

European elections, not least who'll get the top job

But behind the scenes the parties have

also been jockeying for position as they try to form the big groups that

And UKIP seems to have been struggling to keep its influence

Here's Adam to explain how it all works.

If you want your party to be a big cheese in the European Parliament,

you need to form a political group. By doing this, the party gets more

money, more positions on committees and even more speaking rights in the

chamber. But the parliament's rules are strict. And to form a group you

need a group of 25 MPs from at least seven different countries. For UKIP,

the number of MEPs will not be a problem because they already have 24

of their own, but the different nationalities are more of a

challenge. Nigel Farage was not helped by the Tories stealing -

stealing his former Danish and Finnish allies, and the pen pinching

his Italian charms. Nigel needs a new charm and fast. He has already

signed up Lithuania's order and justice, a free citizen from Prague,

and the Dutchman from the reformed political party. The big signing was

the 17 members of the Italian Beppe Griego's 5-star movement, but it

leaves UKIP short of two more international powers, and with the

clock ticking, it looks like his hopes resting on the Swedish

Democrats and the Polish new right Congress. They both make their

decisions next week. What is the latest? UKIP have enough

MEPs with their pals, but they need seven countries, as I understand it.

They are not there yet. They are wrapped five countries and need

another two. UKIP are being quite buoyant and say they will be meeting

MEPs from five countries next week and are pretty confident they will

get those countries, but as Adam was saying, the problem UKIP have had is

that the Conservatives have nicked two of the parties. That is why they

have been struggling, but they say they are confident they will do it.

Meanwhile, the Tories new best friends are the German Eurosceptic

party, which has put Mrs Merkel s nose out of joint, but we don't

quite know whether she really cares or not. I think Cameron has played

his hand badly since he committed to pulling out of the EBP. And he

should be in there with Angela Merkel and if he needs to make a

major renegotiation, he needs to have the Germans onside. Instead

there is a breakaway party and its like supporting UKIP. His party are

supporting her worst enemy. It certainly causing him a lot of

problems, and undermines his negotiating position, but isn't

there an honesty that the centre-right group is explicitly

Federalist, and the Tories are anything but, so they came out, and

Labour are in the Socialist group, which is explicitly Federalist, and

they are not Federalist either. If you want support and influence in

Europe, you have to trade, and he hasn't done this well. The whole

business with who will be the next president, he needs Angela Merkel's

support. Without that, it won't happen. He should have been trading

behind-the-scenes, but he has exposed himself in public, and if he

doesn't win it looks uncertain, and he will be in a position where he

has to go back to his own party and say they are not getting anywhere.

That is dangerous and takes us closer to the Exeter, which I don't

think would want. The danger for Mr Cameron is if it is the president of

the commission, he will save you cannot stop a federalist becoming

head of the European commission what chance do you have of

repatriating lots of powers back to London. There are lots of Tory MPs

dying to make the argument. My hunch is that he won't make it. There are

too many countries opposed to his presidency and even the country

notionally in favour of it, Germany, is failing in youth -- enthusiasm.

Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give in to the Brits this. Her own side

once it as well, though some reason the German media says it. When she

tried to reach out and said to look at the other candidates, she got

such abuse on the right wing press from her own country and party she

had to retreat. Janan is right that there is opposition to Juncker, but

as long as Cameron turns it into an argument about Britain and Europe,

he will strengthen the hand of Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks

Juncker is inappropriate. She did not like the process, which was a

power grab by the European Parliament, but when David Cameron

went to the council and said that if I don't get my way, we could leave

the EU, that led to the backlash, most significantly from the SPD in

Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only David Cameron had made the argument

that Juncker is bad for Europe, then he would have found his natural

allies would have felt more comfortable following behind. Enough

Europe. I want to show you a picture. See what you think of this.

When I saw that picture, I thought it was so ludicrous that it had to

have been photo shop. Discuss. He is holding it with a certain disdain,

looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous picture for Ed Miliband. His

strength is authenticity, sincerity and cleverness. And he blows all of

that. He was the one who took on Murdoch, very bravely and

dangerously, and one, really. Now there he is supporting Murdoch's

son. It's a big mistake, not just in Liverpool, where obviously they are

particularly incensed. And then he apologises. Sort of apologises and

understands why Liverpool feels upset. But it is a fundamental error

and I hope he learns from this, that he must absolutely stay true to

himself. That's all he's got going for him. Who do we blame? His

advisers or himself? In the end himself. Nobody forced him to do it.

On this one, he called it wrong It's a sign of the rather the bridal

state of the Labour Party is that his candidates were vocal in

attacking him doing this. It's a sign of how readable Ed Miliband is

at Parliamentary level. I don't think you should have apologised.

The mistake he made was associating himself with that newspaper. The

mistake was the prior three years when he went too far as portraying

the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. He made a case against phone hacking

and offences in that regard without going as far as he did with the

rhetoric. To do that, and then pose with the Sun newspaper, the

juxtaposition is what did for him, not the mere fact of posing with it.

Maybe he did not know what he was doing because we were told he

doesn't read the British newspapers. It was football, and he

has posed with the Sun newspaper before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg

posed as well. But with the Sun newspaper and football, you tread

carefully. That was the mistake You get the impression from the picture

that he looks so uncomfortable that you wonder whether there was a full

process of consultation that went on within his media operation, within

his political operation. Was he fully aware of what would happen

question what he looks so incredibly uncomfortable. But at the end of the

day, leaders have to take responsibility. It is cultural as

well. That picture says, I am down there with the football blokes and

you think, you are not. That is not what people will vote for. Be

yourself and don't pretend to be something else because it never

works. But the polls suggest that the British voters don't yet see Ed

Miliband as prime ministerial. The worst thing you can then do is get

involved in stunts that are more likely to reinforce that idea than

counter it. There was a precedent for it in the last parliament which

was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign a populist touch. He did it by

telling the contents of his iPod. The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred

because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all

the other leaders have done it. At the moment he more vulnerable. Yes,

and he is less popular than his party. Labour has quite a popular

brand, in a resilient way, in a way they don't with the Tories, yet

their leader is a personal problem. The pressure is on him to do stunts

like this. Will there be a shadow cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to

get the cabinet reshuffle out of the way first, and that might come next

week, maybe by the time of the summer recess, but the first thing

that the prime Minister do is work out who is the UK candidate for the

European Commissioner. Is it not the case probably that Ed Balls is

becoming semi-detached from the Ed Miliband project? I don't think

entirely. Nothing gets agreed without both of the end are green.

Ed Balls is controversial. He has great pluses and minuses and is a

big figure. Labour doesn't have that many big figures. It's quite hard to

think who would be a heavy hitter as a possible Chancellor. He is a

convincing chancellor to the future, Love him. He has the heft -- love

him or hate him. Any possibility Ed Balls could be moved as shadow

chancellor? The timing is convenient because the Scottish referendum ends

in the autumn and Alistair Darling becomes a free man, win or lose I

don't think Ed Balls will be removed because moving him would be an

admission that everything the Labour Party said about the economy to the

preceding four years has been a mistake. And you can't do that nine

months before a general election. You invite ridicule. But relations

between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are not great at the moment. The Ed

Miliband team are very, very suspicious of this new love in

between Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say

that he spotted the Ed Balls talents in the original place and appointed

him to the Gordon Brown team after the disaster of 1992. But things

obviously went awry, and now Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue

Rappaport, and that is with enormous suspicion -- they have a new

Rappaport. With good reason because it's about policy. It's about the

attitude towards business. Should they be out there saying they will

get the tax dodgers, Starbucks, Vodafone, are we going to take on

business in a big way? In a way that Ed Miliband has quite bravely said.

On the other hand, Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on,

we only won in 1997 by being business friendly. Sorry to rush

you. We are running out of time The Daily Politics will be back

every day this week at midday, and I'll be back here next Sunday

when I'll be joined by the shadow work and pensions

secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics. Magnificent. The power base

of medieval England. Charles' ceiling was a piece

of breathtaking arrogance. You get a sense of the people

who made the palaces. as I unlock the secrets

of Britain's great palaces.