30/10/2016 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May says she wants to help people who are

"just about managing" - so should she reverse

George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people

Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,

says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.

So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?

Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation

into her use of a private email server - is this the boost

Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?

On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire -

We take a whistle stop tour round the region to find out just

building that runway with the political problems that lie ahead.

And haunting the studio on this Halloween weekend,

the most terrifying political panel in the business -

Tim 'Ghost' Shipman, 'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and

First this morning, two new models of car to be built,

securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant in Sunderland and a further 28, 00

The news from Nissan on Thursday was seized on by Leave campaigners

as evidence that the British economy is in rude health

This morning, the Business Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked

what assurances were given to the Japanese firm's bosses

Well, it's in no-one's the interest for there to be tariff

barriers to the continent and vice versa.

So, what I said is that our objective would be to ensure that we

have continued access to the markets in Europe and vice versa, without

tariffs and without bureaucratic impediments.

That is how we will approach those negotiations.

We're joined now from Newcastle by the Shadow Business

Welcome to the programme. Labour has been a bit sceptical about this

Nissan decision. Can we begin by making it clear just what a great

achievement this is, above all for the workers of Sunderland who have

some of the highest productivity in the world, have never been on strike

for 30 years, and produce cars of incredible quality. This is their

victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are absolutely right. The Nissan plant

in Sunderland is among the most productive in the world. The workers

of Nissan are amongst the most productive as well. And it's really

a victory for them and for the trade unions and the business

organisations, and everybody who campaigned to make sure that the

government couldn't ignore their future. It's our future. I'm the MP

for Newcastle. It makes a huge difference to the region. We are a

region that still likes to make things that work. It is a huge part

of our advanced manufacturing sector. So it's really something we

welcome as well as the job security. I'm glad we have got that on the

record from the Labour shadow business secretary. But your Shadow

Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims the government is ignoring

manufacturers and cares only about a small banking elite. In what way is

safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs in the North safeguarding a

financial elite? As I said, we're really pleased that the campaigning

by trade unions and the workforce, and business organisations, meant

the government felt they couldn t ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be

clear that we want that kind of job security for all of those working in

manufacturing and in other sectors as well. And sweetheart deals for

one company, no matter how important they are, that does not an

industrial strategy make. Why'd you say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg

Clark told the BBC this morning that what was assured to Nissan is an

assurance he gives to the whole industrial sector? I was really

pleased to see Greg Clark felt he had to say something, even though

it's sad that we having our industrial strategy, you like, or

our approach to Brexit delivered piecemeal to the media rather than

to the British people and Nissan, actually. But he want published the

letter. He said he has told us what is in the letter and that

reassurances given on training, on science and on supporting the supply

chain for the automated sector. You must be in favour all -- of all of

that? We are in favour of an industrial strategy. Greg Clark

unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say industrial strategy. I'm still

puzzling to find out what it is you disagree with. Let me put the

question. You said the assurances he has given to Nissan are available to

the car manufacturing sector in general and indeed to industry in

general. What is your problem with that? Two things. Let him publish

the letter so we can see that, let him have the transparency he's

pretending to offer. But also, we need an industrial strategy that

values -- that is values based and joined. He talked about electric

cars and supporting green cars. That was in regard to Nissan. At the same

time the government has slashed support for other areas of green

technology. So what is it? That is not to do with the Nissan deal.

Labour implied at some stage there was some financial inducement, some

secret bribes, that doesn't seem to be the case. You are not claiming

that any more -- any more. Then you claimed it was a sweetheart deal for

one company. That turns out not to be the case. What criticism are you

left with on this Nissan deal? I would be really surprised if all

that Nissan got was the reassurances that Greg Clark is shared with us.

He didn't answer the question of what happens if we can't get

continued tariff free access to the single market, if we are not within

the single market or the Customs Union. Do you really think a

negotiator like Nissan, who are very good at negotiating, they would have

excepted making this significant investment without some further

reassurances? Do you think there is some kind of financial bride and if

so what is the evidence? I would like to see the letter published and

I would also like to understand what would happen... There are 27

countries which need to agree with the deal we have from Brexit. What

will Nissan, how will Nissan remain competitive? How will the automotive

industry remain competitive? Greg Clark says he reassured them on

that. But how will that be so if we do not get access? We haven't heard

anything about that. He talks about reassurances given to Nissan. We

need to make -- to know where we're going to make sure Brexit is in the

interest of all workers, not only those who work for a Nissan and not

only those who can get the attention of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan

that Britain would remain a competitive place to do business.

That was the main assurance he gave them. He would help with skills and

infrastructure and all the rest Since you are -- intend to repeal

the trade union laws that have made strikes in Britain largely a thing

of the past, and you plan to raise corporation tax, you couldn't give

Nissan the same assurance, could you? We could absolutely give Nissan

the assurance that we will be, our vision of the future of the UK, is

based on having a strong manufacturing sector. Repealing

trade union laws? As we have seen at Nissan, the industrial sector is

dependent on having highly trained, well skilled workers. -- highly

skilled, well-trained. You don't have that by getting -- having an

aggressive policy and trade union laws or by slashing corporation tax

and not supporting manufacturing investment. Remember, the last

government took away the Manufacturing allowances which

supported Manufacturing and slashed corporation tax. That is their

solution. It is a low tax, low skill economy they want.

Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you. I'm grateful for you joining us

I'm still struggling to see what is left of Labour's criticism? Yeah,

except for this. This was a valid point she just made. What we know

for sure is that Greg Clark could say to Nissan, my aim is to get

tariff free deal. There is no way he could guarantee that. None of us

know that. I don't think that was enough. I think clearly there was a

more detailed package involving training and other things. He has

acknowledged this, albeit we do not know the precise mechanism. What I

think is interesting about this is if you reverse what happened this

week, at a time when the government says Britain is open for business

and it is going to have an industrial strategy, so far it is a

bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't made this commitment. Imagine what

would have happened? It is an impossible scenario. The government

seems to me was obliged to make sure this didn't happen. Let's not forget

Nissan has invested hundreds of millions in the north-east. It has

been a huge success story. When I spoke to workers from Nissan, they

were so proud because they went to Japan to teach the Japanese had to

be more productive. The idea that Nissan was just going to walk away

from this given its track record, its importance, wasn't really

credible. The government had some bargaining chips. Absolutely, of

course they weren't going to walk away. The majority of people in the

area in which Nissan is braced - based, voted for Brexit. Nissan

knows it is in a powerful position because it is an emotive sector

Clearly the government didn't want to have some big showdown. I

honestly don't think this is a smoking gun. The Labour Shadow

minister really struggled to articulate what exactly she thinks

the government is hiding. I think the reassurances were given were

pretty anodyne, really. They were anodyne and general. And what Greg

Clark was setting out was an objective and he made the right

noises, and Nissan exercised its right to sabre rattle. It does have

a history of doing that. The one thing that would now be clear given

Greg Clark's performance this morning on the BBC, is that if we

were to discover some kind of financial incentive directly linked

to this investment, not more for skills or infrastructure, that is

fine, but some direct financial investment, compensation for

tariffs, which would be illegal under World Trade Organisation

rules, what you might call a financial bride, the sect -- the

business Secretary's position would be untenable? He would be in a very

difficult position indeed. Just released the letter. There is

nothing to hide. Put it out there. The most revealing thing is that

people are getting wildly excited about the fact Greg Clark announced

Britain's negotiating position would be that we would like tariff free

trade with Europe. This is regarded as an insight into what this comment

is doing and it says a great deal about how little we have been told

in Parliament and the media about what they are up. Do you think it is

exciting we are going for tariff free trade? We're easily excited

these days. We don't know. This is where these things are at such a

tentative phase. We don't know how the rest of the European Union is

going to respond to Britain's negotiating hand. We know Britain

once the best of everything, please. It is a starting point. But that is

not how it is going to end up. We are getting wider than that. We have

will have to see. Now, Universal Credit,

a single payment made to welfare claimants that would roll together

a plethora of benefits whilst encouraging people into work

by making work pay. But have cuts to the flagship

welfare scheme reduced work incentives and hit the incomes

of the least well-off? Well, some of the government's

own MPs think so, and, as Mark Lobel reports,

want the cuts reversed. Theresa May says she wants

a country that works for everyone, that's on the side

of ordinary, working people. It means never writing off people

who can work and consigning them to a life on benefits,

but giving them the chance to go out and earn a living and to enjoy

the dignity that comes But now some in her party

are worried that the low earners will be hit by changes

to Universal Credit benefit system originally set up to encourage

more people into work. We also need to focus tax credits

and Universal Credit Concern centred on the Government's

decision in the July 2015 budget to find ?3 billion worth of savings

from the Universal Credit bill. Conservative MP Heidi Allen

is working on a campaign to get MPs in her party to urge

the Prime Minister to think again. I want her to understand for herself

what the outcomes might be if we press ahead

with the Universal Credit, Do you think Theresa May, right now,

understands what you understand To be fair, unless you really

get into the detail, and I have through my work

on the Work and Pensions Select Committee, I don't

think anybody does. Independent economic analysts

at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan that cuts to Universal Credit weaken

incentives to work. One of the key parts

of the Universal Credit system That is how much you can

earn before your credit As the Government has

sought to save money, both under the Coalition and now

they Conservative Government, both under the Coalition and now

the Conservative Government, that work allowance has been cut,

time and time again. The biggest cuts happened

in the summer budget of 2015. That basically reduces the amount

of earnings you get to keep It weakens the incentive people have

to move into work. What do changes to the Universal

Credit system mean? The Resolution Foundation think tank

has crunched the numbers. If you compare what would have

happened before the July 2015 summer budget to what will happen by 2 20,

even if you take into account gains in the National Living Wage

and income tax cuts, recipients will be hit

by annual deductions. Couples and parents would receive,

on average, ?1000 less. A dual-earning couple with two

children under four, with one partner working full-time

on ?10.50 an hour and the other working part-time on the minimum

wage for around 20 hours a week, they would

receive ?1800 less. Hit most by the changes

would be a single parent with a child under four,

working full-time I think, if I'm honest,

it is unrealistic, given the economic climate,

to expect everything to be reversed. What I would like to see

is an increase in the work allowances to those people

who will be hardest hit. That is single parents and second

earners hoping to return to work, because they are the people we need

to absolutely make The Sunday Politics understands that

about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs are pushing for changes ahead

of the Autumn Statement. A former cabinet minister told us

that they believed further impact analysis should be done to find out

if any mitigation measures Former Work and Pensions Secretary

Iain Duncan Smith, an architect of the system, now says

the cuts should be reversed. But his former department has told

us that it has no plans to revisit the work allowance changes announced

in the budget last year. What I would say to Heidi Allen

and IDS, they got it right the first time and they should stick

to the vote they cast last year because these reforms actually

do make sense. What interests me is the fact

we are trying to move people off welfare into work,

we are raising the wages people earn by massively increasing

the minimum wage and this People are coming off

welfare and into work. Campaigners are pushing for savings

to come from other areas to relieve The other thing we have to start

looking at is the triple Financially it has been a great

policy, and it was absolutely right that we lifted pensioners

who were significantly behind, for many years, in terms of income

levels, but they have I think it is time for us to look

at that policy again, because is costing us an awful

lot of money. With just over three weeks to wait

until the Conservative leadership's new economic plan is unveiled

in the Autumn Statement, its top team is under pressure

from within its own ranks to use it And I'm joined now by former Work

and Pensions Secretary, Welcome back to the programme.

Theresa May said she is on the side of the just managing, the working

poor. But they are about to be hit from all sides. Their modest living

standards are going to be squeezed as inflation overtakes pay rises,

they will be further squeezed because top-up benefits in work are

frozen. Incentives to work are going to be reduced by the cuts in

universal benefits. So much for being on the side of those just

managing? Theresa was right to focus on this group. The definition has to

be the bottom half, in economic terms, of the social structure. It

doesn't look good for them? This is the point I am making, it is an

opportunity to put some of this right. One of the reasons I resigned

in March is because I felt the direction of travel we had been

going in had been to take far too much money out of that group of

people when there are other areas which, if you need to make some of

those savings, you can. The key bit is that the group needs to be helped

through into work and encouraged to stay in work. There was a report

done with the IFS, when we were there, at Universal Credit. It said

Universal Credit rolled out, as it should have been before the cuts,

people would be much more likely to stay in work longer and earn more

money. It is a net positive, but that is now called into question.

Let's unpick some of the detail but first, do you accept the words of

David Willets? It says on the basis of the things I read out to you that

the just managing face a significant and painful cut in real terms if we

continue on the way we are going. I do, in essence. That is the reason

why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised that issue as well, that we got the

balance wrong. It is right that pensioners get to a certain point,

when they are on a level par, doing the right thing over five years

Staying with that process has cost us ?18 billion extra this year, in

total. It will go on costing another 5 billion. Then there is the issue

of tax allowances. I want to remind you and viewers what David Cameron

told the Conservative conference in 2009. If you are a single mother

with two children, earning ?150 a week, the withdrawal of your

benefits and the additional taxes that you pay me on that for every

extra you earn, you keep just 4p. What kind of incentive is that? 30

years ago, this party won and election fighting against 98% tax

rates for the Rex richest. I want us today to show even more anger about

96% tax rates for the very poorest in our country. Real anger, and

effective rate of over 90%. Universal Credit reduces that. Some

will still face, as they lose benefits and pay tax, a marginal

rate of over 75%. That is still too high? Yes, it is the collision

between those going into work at the moment they start paying tax. A

racial Universal Credit is set at 65%. You can call that the base

marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will face 75%? That is the point about

why the allowances are so important. The point about the allowances which

viewers might not fully understand is that it was set, as part of

Universal Credit, to allow you to get certain people, with certain

difficulties, as they cross into work, to retain more benefit before

it is tapered away as they go up in hours. A lone parent, who might have

various issues, you want her to have a bigger incentive than a single

person that does not have the same commitments. It is structured so

that somebody who has difficulty going to work, they all have

slightly different rates. What happened is that last year a

decision was taken to reduce tax credits, and, on the back of that,

to reduce allowances. I believe given everything that happened now,

we need to restore that to the point where it helps those people crossing

over. You say a decision was taken, it was a decision by the former

Chancellor George Osborne in the summer budget. Other decisions were

taken in successive Budgets to raise the Universal Credit budget, which

resulted in the disincentive being higher than many people wanted. Do

you accept that has been the consequence of his decisions? I was

in the Government, we take collective responsibility. I argued

this was not the right way to go, but when you are in you have to stay

with it if you lose that argument. There was another attempt before the

spending review last year to increase the taper, so the marginal

rate would have gone up. I managed to stop that. I'm Sibley saying

what we made as a decision last year, given the circumstances and

given that the net effect of all of that, I think it is time for the

Government to ask the question, if we are in this to help that group of

people, Universal Credit is singularly the most powerful tool.

One of the Argentine aid in the paper published on Thursday, we are

set going on doing two more races of the tax threshold, taking more

people out of tax. That has a diminishing effect on the bottom

section. Only 25p in that tax rate will help any of those. Most of it

goes to middle income? You and I will benefit more from that. With

Universal Credit, every pound you put into that will go to the bottom

five tenths. That is why I designed it like that. He pressed the button

and immediately start to changed circumstances. Should the cuts in

Universal Credit that Mr Osborne introduced, against your argument,

should they be reversed? I believe so. I believe you can do it even if

there is concern about spending I don't believe you need to go through

with the continuing raise the tax threshold. Cost is dependent on

inflation, but give or take. It is in the Tory manifesto? Has more than

doubled. What is in the manifesto, and Lasse Prime Minister made this

clear in conference, we want to improve the life chances of people.

Today's announcement on the Green paper is what I wrote over the last

two and a half years. Big changes necessary to how we deal with

sickness benefit. That can now be done because of Universal Credit,

because people can go back to work and it tapers away their benefits.

It is the most powerful tool to sort our people that live in poverty

Universal Credit. We need to make sure it lands positively. If Mr

Osborne's cuts were reversed, what you and some of your backbench Tory

colleagues want to do, how would that improve the incentives of the

working poor, as they try to get on in life? They have to pay more tax,

they lose some benefits. How would it improve it? Would many still face

a 75% rate? The key question is first and foremost, as people move

through income to the point where they are getting taxed, that group

will be enormously benefited by the re-emergence of these allowances at

the right level. That is what the IFS have said, that is what the

Resolution Foundation are saying, and the Centre For Social Justice is

saying. You have to get that group, because they are most likely to be

drifting into poverty and less incomes are right. Would it help

those who face a 75% margin? We don't face that. Exactly right.

People much poorer than us do. I would love to get the marginal rate

down to testify percent, and lower,. -- down to 65%. It is a balance of

how you spend the money. I would prefer to do that rather than

necessarily go ahead with threshold razors. I think the coronation of

the marginal reduction of 65%, getting it down to 60%, plus more

allowances, will allow Universal Credit to get to the group that is

going to be, and the report written by the IFS and ourselves, it shows

it is going to be the most dynamic and direct ability of a Government

to be able to influence the way that people improve their incomes in the

bottom five deciles. Would you take on extra work if you knew you were

going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %? This has been my argument all along.

Universal Credit can help that enormously. One point that goes

missing, 70% of the bottom five deciles will be on Universal Credit.

Whatever change you make to Universal Credit has a dramatic and

immediate effect I am arguing, genuinely, it is time to rethink

this. The Prime Minister wants to make this a priority. I am

completely with her on this. I think she made a really good start. To

deliver this, we need to... You have a lot of work to do to deliver it.

Because it is a manifesto commitment, or because they want to

do it, stopping increasing the personal allowances are not

acceptable, what about bringing to an end, by the end of the

parliament, the pension triple lock that pensioners enjoy to improve and

put more money to the working poor? What about that? Well, you are

absolutely right that there is now the danger, I think, of a mess

balance between the generations Quite rightly at the beginning, when

we came in, we have a commitment as a Conservative Party in a manifesto

to get pensions back onto earnings. It was moved to a triple lock that

guaranteed a minimum. What about ending up now? I understand it is a

promise through the Parliament, but after 2020? I am in favour of

getting it back to innings and allowing it to rise at reasonable

levels. Moving from earnings to the triple lock has cost ?18 billion

this year. Here was a high, under pressure, as the Government was

scratching around to pay more money out of working age areas, when the

budget was almost out of control on the pension side. I'm in favour of

helping pensioners, but now they are up to a reasonable level, at a

steady rate, that can be afforded by Government, which takes the pressure

off, working age people have to pay for that. In years to come, time to

end the triple lock and use the savings to help these

people we have been talking about? As part of a load of packages, yes.

It would also help with the intergenerational fairness argument.

Thank you for being with us. Now, a prominent London Imam

called Shakeel Begg - who is Chief Imam the Lewisham

Islamic Centre - is an extremist. That was the verdict of the judge

in a libel action that Mr Begg took against the BBC, after we described

him as an Islamic extremist Mr Begg had complained about a short

segment in an interview in November 2013 with Farooq Murad,

the then head of the Muslim Council of Britain, an organisation

which claims to represent British In that interview, we described

Mr Begg as an extremist speaker who had hailed jihad

is the greatest of deeds. From his base of the Lewisham

Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been involved in a number of community

organisations, including the Police Independent

Advisory Group in Lewisham, Lewisham Council's Advisory Council

on Religious Education and as a volunteer chaplain

at Lewisham Hospital. But in his judgment,

Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character

- a trusted figure in his local community, but when talking

to predominantly Muslim audiences he shed the cloak of respectability

and revealed the horns of extremism. The judge cited one speech made

by Mr Begg at a rally outside Belmarsh Prisonm-

the high security prison that houses terrorists -

as particularly sinister. The judge said the imam

was expressing admiration and praise Following Friday's judgment,

the hospital trust have told us that Mr Begg's status as a voluntary

chaplain has been terminated. We have been told by

Lewisham Council he is no longer on their Religious

Education Committee. The Metropolitan Police

have confirmed that Mr Begg remains a member

of their Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham, as well as

the borough's faith group. I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief

executive of the Quilliam Foundation. Welcome to the

programme. I have here in my hand a statement from the trustees of the

Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject the judge's ruling as fanciful and

say they are unequivocal and unwavering in their support of

Shakeel Begg as their head imam What do you make of that? To be

honest, it doesn't surprise me. At the end of the day he is only the

imam of that mosque because he belongs to the same theological

fundamentalist views that the mosque would portray. If they were to say

he was an extremist, they would be saying in fact that they have

allowed extremist preaching and extremist theology within their

walls. I think this is a very important decision and a very

important judgment by the judge First of all, these people like to

operate in a linear, under a veneer of respectability. When that veneer

is taken away, there are a number of things that can happen. First of

all, the BBC did very well to stand by their guns and say, we're not

going to be intimidated by somebody who is threatening to taking -- to

take us to court for potential libel. Many other media companies

have done that in the past and people have capitulated. Also, this

has exposed him. Legally now, here's some deal can be classified as an

extremist preacher, somebody who promotes religious violence. I think

the mosque really needs to take a step back and say, how we part of

the problem that we are facing within society? Or are we going to

be part of the solution? It really concerns me. The High Court judge

says that Mr Begg's speeches were consistent with an extremist

Salafist is the most worldview. What is Salafist is and how widespread is

it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It comes from the Middle East. It is

from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for them was the old colonial Ottoman

Empire. There is the quiet Salafist to get some with their lives, lives

outside society. There is a revolutionary who tries to convert

other people to their worldview And then there is the Salafist jihad

ease. People like Islamic State etc. We have seen of increased in recent

decades because of money that has, growing from the Middle East. When

that is mixed with a political ideology, it becomes potent. Do we

have a political -- particular problem in Britain with this in our

mosques? Absolutely. Without the theology that says hate the other,

hate other Muslims, that excommunicate other people, that

says it is OK to fight and is good to fight when you have got an enemy,

we wouldn't really have a jihadi problem. Really that is something we

have to tackle. The number of mosques and institutions supporting

Salafist and Islam is has been on the increase. Do we have a problem

with what the judge called Jekyll and Hyde characters who hide their

extremism except when they are speaking to specific groups?

Absolutely. One of the things we have focused on in the past, a

number of hate preachers now in prison, people like Anjem Choudary,

and everybody focused on them. But there is a range of people operating

under that level. People who will show one face to the community

because they actually need that for a respectability. They need that for

a legitimacy. They need that to operate. When they are behind closed

doors and talking to their constitution, that is when you will

see the real face of what these people believe. It is an increasing

phenomenon. We are seeing it more. And we're going to carry on seeing

it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque stuck by him, but given the clarity

of the judge's ruling, are you surprised that the Metropolitan

police would wish to continue with Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm

absolutely shocked that that decision. What Uzzy going to do

Advise them on how to deal with extremist preachers and promote

religiously motivated violence? I don't know what he's going to advise

them on. Because we now have a judge that has ruled against him and

actually classified him as an extremist and somebody who promotes

religious violence, we actually have a possibility for the CPS to

actually prosecute him. There is a law that has been in place since

2005 called religiously motivated violence. If he has been classified

as somebody who promotes this, there is a potential for the CPS to

prosecute. I want to called into question other organisations,

interfaith organisations, other Muslims groups, who say they want to

fight extremism, I call on them to say, this guy is an extremist

preacher, we should cut our ties from him. This was a very high risk

strategy by the BBC. The exposure could have been over ?1.5 million of

licence payers money. Will this make it more difficult for Jekyll and

Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg has behaved? Absolutely. It will do.

One of the things they will now have to make sure is that they are a lot

more careful. Careful with what they say to their own constituency. It

won't solve the theological problem. But it will actually stop other

people from operating in this manner and allow other media organisations

to have the confidence to expose them when they do. Haras Rafiq,

thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35,

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

the Week Ahead. Hello, you're watching

the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire

and the north midlands. Coming up today: The high

cost of help at home, bill and can we avoid

a crisis in the care sector? As devolution hits the buffdrs

here in Lincolnshire, we are taking a look at what's

happening across our region. It was meant to be

a revolution in local Government with elected mayors

getting more power and more money from Whitehall, but is

the devolution dream falling apart? We are joined today by Toby Perkins,

Labour MP for Chesterfield, Liberal Democrat Baroness Kath Pinnock,

and joining us from Boston Conservative MP for

Boston and Skegness. I'll ask you, what's ben thd

political highlight of your week? I think the thing that's re`lly

stood out for me is the opposition Sometimes politics are about

putting things right. One of our local MPs has

led our campaign to get Concentrix chucked out of the job

that they were doing, which was costing many of m`ny

constituents tax credits, some really poor quality work that

had been done there. And it shows that Government don't

always get it right, but sometimes politicians c`n bring

about pressure and get things changed and that's been

a real success this week. Highlight of the week for you,

Baronness Pinnock? I was going to tell you that

being back in Yorkshire and going to a concert

by the Huddersfield Choral Society, but you've changed

the question to politics. I think the fact that the Government

is ditching its forced academy of all our schools,

that for me was good news. And of course we hope you enjoy the

Huddersfield Choral Society. And your political

highlight, Matt Warman? Well, if you want a politic`l one,

I think it's finally the decision on Heathrow to go ahead and make

a decision that we've Actually, I think it was picking my

own pumpkin here in Lincolnshire But 500,000 pumpkins have bden

picked in these very farms. We should get excited

about that as well. An insight into Halloween

at the Warman household. Now, it's something that

will happen to most of us. We get old and many of us

will eventually need care. Most people prefer to stay

in their own homes. For most people, it's

their local council who, after years of austerity,

are worried about further ctts Now, the companies who provhde

the care say they're not getting paid enough and some are pulling out

of council contracts. A knock at the door that makes life

so much better for Brian. The 80-year-old former scaffolder

was paralysed from the waist down after an industrial accident

25 years ago. Now living alone in his Wakdfield

bungalow, he needs help so he can do the most basic things that people

usually take for granted. I'm just going to put my apron

on so I can empty your leg bag. Amanda is a carer with

a private agency contracted Brian is one of as many as ten

clients she'll visit every day. The work can be physically

demanding and carers providd But wages are still at the linimum

rate of ?7.20 an hour. The result - turnover of st`ff

leaving the job is high, retention low, and the carers know

exactly why that is. You are dealing with people's lives

and it is quite an important job. We welcome the National Livhng Wage,

but all that means is it's put We need to be paying care staff

who do a fantastic job, more than ?7.20 but we're

stuck in that cycle now. It means the public,

the taxpayer, whatever it is, locally or nationally,

needs to pay more. Ultimately, local authoritids

are responsible for the fees and the industry has surveydd them

to find out exactly how The agencies say that providing care

in people's homes in streets They have to provide

training for their staff. They have to provide travel

time for their staff They reckon that in order to do

that and make a profit, they ought to be paid

the equivalent of ?16.70 an hour. But according to this latest survey,

local authorities pay them ?14. 6, and across Yorkshire, even lower

than that - ?14.11 an hour. We all know the country's bden

having to live within its mdans over the last few years and what we tried

to do is put as much money So we've protected budgets

where we can, we've put mord money into prevention and we have put more

money into care fees. But we only have a limited pot

of money available to fund services. All this creates a daily struggle

for agencies trying to keep up with increasing demand but `lso

to recruit and retain Recruitment, it's

a full-time job in itself. And then to retain the staff that

you actually recruit, again, that's another full-time

job in itself. The way that these girls ard paid,

they're paid minimum wage. Quite fortunate that our girls

are paid travel time But how can you encourage pdople

to come and stay at your colpany to work for minimum wage

for the amount of responsibhlity It requires people with

compassion and patience. Getting the right calibre of people

and more of them is really going to be very important

because one thing we do know - the population is ageing,

so this sort of service in the home Kath Pinnock, is it right that nine

out of ten councils are payhng below Don't think you can say it's

below the minimum price. What their association

considers the minimum price. They're a company and have got

to cover their costs and make a profit for their owners and ? 4.10

is what the council pays for social care and I think what we have

to consider is the equation that we have here, which is number

of older people going up and the number of older people

needing care going up, the amount of money coming

into councils to help pay This is traditionally

a low wage industry. But many care providers say they've

been hit by the introduction How do we ensure, Toby,

that care providers don't ptll out of contracts with councils

and people are left without care? You saw there what is expected

of carers, they're going into the most intimate

of circumstances, people's houes around the community, often late

at night or early in the morning, I think they do a vital job

and our health service I just think we need to pay

it more as a society. We had a plan at the last election

about bringing social care and health together,

valuing social care in the same Until we do that as a society,

and as a political class, these The arguments often put forward

Matt, is that cutting social care can often be a false

economy because it puts Do you believe that social care

particularly home care, I think what we need to do hs not

only make sure we fund soci`l care and adult social care,

in particular, properly but we also get that link

between the health service right. Because this isn't simply

about making sure we put more money into the pot,

it's about making sure we gdt an efficient use of that money

because it's often social c`re and delays in social care

that are meaning people are staying longer in hospital,

it costs more money It's about getting that intdrface

right and there is in that sense, To go back to Toby's

point around getting the relationship between social care

and the health service right. But, Kath, many people

now are paying 2% extra on their council tax bills,

it's what councils How do we know that money

is being used properly? Because the Government

has said it's a preset, so it's not in the general council

tax pot and it has to be accounted for in spending

on adult social care. We know that our councils are being

squeezed and there's plenty And, unfortunately, it's now hitting

adult social care and the ilpact is on the old folk themselvdss,

but also the NHS, and that's putting Matt, the Local Government

Association estimates there is a ?2.6 billion funding gap

when it comes to social card. Will your new chancellor,

Phillip Hammond, be prepared to look at this in next

month's autumn statement? If I'm honest, I hope

that's the case. I think what we should be looking

at is how do we make sure that local councils have got the resources

they need to do this, which is probably the singld biggest

issue that comes to me when it But for me this is as much

about getting the relationship between the health service

and local councils right Now, devolution was meant to create

a revolution in local Government. Large city regions with control over

things like transport, planning skills and housing,

and a directly elected mayor controlling millions of pounds

of extra Government money, but it's not yet in our

part of the world. We'll ask why in a moment,

but first our political reporters right across the patch tell us

where we are. Just a few weeks ago,

it looked as though devoluthon was definitely coming

to Lincolnshire, but in the past week, two council leaders

have been instructed Residents were being told jtst don't

want an elected mayor. So the eight remaining

councils are wondering There are still hopes that the two

councils will sign up if the Government offers

new incentives or it could be that the eight remaining approach

Whitehall with a bid of thehr own, or it could just be

that the deal is off. Here in East Yorkshire,

it's all talk and at There have been proposals

for Hull to become part of the Leeds City Region bid,

and for East Riding to join up But both Hull city council

and the East Riding of Yorkshire council say discussions

are still ongoing and no Here in West Yorkshire,

the script has had as many twists and turns as a play by the great

Leeds writer, Alan Bennett. And we're still waiting

for a deal to be signed. It all comes down to the cotncils

not being able to agree on how Does West Yorkshire go with a couple

of its North Yorkshire neighbours on the Leeds City Region de`l,

or does it pitch in with North and East Yorkshire on an arrangement

known as Greater Yorkshire? Sources tell me that lively behind

closed doors debates are going on about what powdrs

an elected mayor should havd. Meanwhile, a now out of datd deal

based on the West Yorkshire combined authority is moldering away

in various desk drawers. Sheffield has got the ball rolling

on a deal, which includes Doncaster, Barnsley, Rotherham and possibly

Chesterfield and Bassetlaw. The city region is on the brink

of signing off draft orders from the Government,

which would give an elected mayor powers over raising

and spending money. And over planning, transport and

skills. But it's not a done deal yet. A row is brewing over whether

it Chesterfield will be included. That fight goes to the High Court in

November and there is also uncertainty over whether Bassetlaw

joins two. If you want the largest joins two. If you want the largest

number of possible deals thdn come to North Yorkshire. The gre`ter

Yorkshire bid includes everxwhere apart from South Yorkshire `nd that

has a lot of support here. But if the Leeds city region bid goes

ahead, then that takes part of North Yorkshire with it too. Therd is a

third option on the table and that would be for York, North Yorkshire

and east riding. But if the Sheffield deal falls through and

these work out, there is a possibility of a fourth moddl. That

would be devolution for the whole of Yorkshire. Still not a lot of

talking to be done on that one. I'm glad that's all clear. Why,

apart from South Yorkshire, have council leaders and the rest of

Yorkshire failed to agree on a deal? I don't think the failed to agree on

a deal. I think they've been handed cards from the Government which

when you play them out, don't add up to very much because the Ledds city

region, the five west Yorkshire that works well. But then what

happens to the rest of Yorkshire? I have a lot of sympathy with the idea

of a greater Yorkshire model. That gives us a population size near

enough that of Scotland. It also maybe gives us the play we can have

with those down in London. Toby are you convinced the Sheffield city

region deal will go ahead as planned? And would include

Chesterfield? I'm not certahn that well. I think it appears from the

Government's perspective th`t devolution is the only show in town,

we decide between local authority spending the additional part here or

it can continue to get spent if at all by Whitehall. I think in the

Derbyshire area, Nottinghamshire, the deal is going nowhere.

right conclusion to join thd right conclusion to join thd

Sheffield city region but wd made it absolutely clear, this doesn't mean

Chesterfield is leaving Derbyshire and joining Sheffield. We'vd seen a

Sheffield nibble away at Derbyshire over the years and we will be an

equal partner as part of thd Sheffield city region but I'm not

convinced by the mayoral part of it although that appears it max be what

the deal has to involve. Conservative run Lincolnshire County

Council,, your authority, h`d just rejected the deal put forward to

them by Government. That is hardly a vote of confidence in devolttion, is

it? Eight out of ten Lincolnshire Council has voted for it. Not the

county council. At least ond of those does go for it as well.

Ultimately, this is a good deal that was negotiated by all ten ldaders,

including the county council. It's including the county council. It's

disappointing they haven't voted for it but I genuinely hope we're going

to get this over the line bdcause it means hundreds of millions of pounds

extra for a county that historically does not have the investment that it

deserves. It is a huge opportunity and I really hope that we whll be

able to get over the line. There seems to be widespread opposition to

this idea of a directly elected mayor. If you look at the ddtails of

the consultation, there was widespread support for devolution,

marginally across the whole of Lincolnshire a preference not to

have a mayor. What the mayor gives you, one is access to the htndreds

of millions of pounds and it gives you an individual who is accountable

for the decisions that are lade rather than someone who is

relatively remote in Whiteh`ll. I think it is not only... Somd people

think of it as a price worth paying, I think it's actually a

straightforward good thing `nd I think it gives us access not only to

increase power, it will also increase money then we should be

grasping at with both hands. And is a directly elected mayor in price

worth paying, do you believd? It's a choice between that and not having

the devolution, absolutely. We want to see local authorities working

close together. We have manx shared agendas with Sheffield and the rest

of South Yorkshire, we will also continue to have a relationship with

the rest of Derbyshire are. Most important thing is that there is

money devolved to our local areas because we know better how to spend

an Whitehall. If the mayor hs the only way of achieving that, then the

mayor from a price worth paxing It gives people a vote and the

decisions that that person lakes with the money that is devolved to.

The Government have looked `t places like Manchester, Liverpool,

Birmingham, Newcastle who h`ve all gone for devolution deals whth

directly elected mayors. And yet Yorkshire, most of Yorkshird,

hasn't. You must think they are it is stubborn lot in Yorkshird? Quite

right too. People in Yorkshhre know that the idea of elected maxor in

the west Yorkshire case, probably a Leeds prison and the rest of us who

don't live in Leeds, think, does that mean we are going to gdt ruled

by leaps and quite rightly H think that we are not sure that that

works. The debate will go on no doubt. Let's get the Belind` Bencic

two seconds. -- here is the round-up. The Grantham and Stanford

NT is starting treatment for a cancerous tumour in his head. Nine

diagnosed with Hodgkin's lylphoma. diagnosed with Hodgkin's lylphoma.

Labour has been fined ?20,000 by the electoral commission for fahling to

declare all of its general dlection expenses, including the Ed Stone.

The former Labour leader and Doncaster North MP that part of his

party's election pledges into the stone tablet. Stephen Wolf's

altercation at the European Parliament in Strasbourg is to be

investigated by French police, and kernel you kept enquiry has been

given a formal reprimand. And sport Minister, Tracy Crouch, was in

Sheffield this week to open the football Association's ?200 million

project to build 13 new all,weather facilities across England. The Hull

University graduate is a kedn footballer, but is she this good?

What is your record for QPR please? May be just about as good as

Tracey's she might have had little bit of help the TV. On a football

related theme, you have been calling for Russia to be stripped of hosting

the 2018 World Cup? Is that likely to happen? I'm not sure is likely to

happen. We're hearing from the Government having to take Rtssia

seriously the sanctions of the rest of the world is talking abott. The

Prime Minister declined this week to pressure Spain not to refuel the

Russian warship that's going back to cause mayhem in Syria and wd've also

had -- heard nothing from Government about putting pressure on the phone

to strip rush at the World Cup. I think it should happen and the rest

of the world to be sending ` message to Russia but I'm not confident it

will. Should Russia lose thd next six World Cup? Just going b`ck to

what will be said, that ship is now not going to be refuelled in Spain

and that is the result of international pressure. To be

honest, we've got so much more pressing problems around a

relationship with Russia and the World Cup. We are seeing a resurgent

Russia that needs to be reined in by a united approach from across the

western world. Brexit is sthll dominating the political he`dlines.

Tony Blair, former prime ministers, you might remember him, is seeing

again this should be a second referendum! How will that go down

for 55% of people voted to leave the EU in your constituency? I'l not

sure Tony Blair said a second referendum, he said people should

have another say. -- buyers are not a second referendum? It could a

general election. I do think that people have a right to make their

first choice, which is what we've got to respect and then when things

pan out, when the petrol prhces go up and food prices go up and maybe

not the case. Mess and are hnvesting not the case. Mess and are hnvesting

in the country. The Governmdnt has piled some cash in there. Ghve us a

couple of years before we actually signed the deal, and another chance.

Second referendum, yes or no? I don't think we should be st`rting

from that point. We should be trying to get the best deal we can. You

represent the most brutal Brexit constituency in the country. What

would be the message there to Tony Blair? The message to Tony Blair

wouldn't be broadcast on a family programme. We can certainly say that

the messages that the will of the people should be respected. Thank

Baroness. You can find out lore Baroness. You can find out lore

about a difficult week for xou kept in the European Parliament over the

past few days by reading thd blog. With

Barely more than a week now until polling day,

and a new revelation rocks the US Presidential election campaign.

If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just got more bizarre.

The FBI have reopened their investigation into Hillary Clinton's

use of private email servers whilst she was Secretary

of State, after the discovery of further emails.

Though not on her laptop or even the State Department.

Donald Trump is saying that it's bigger than Watergate -

so could it swing the election in his favour?

We spoke to top US pollster, Frank Luntz.

The FBI investigation is happening so late in the election process

that it would be very difficult to derail a Clinton victory.

That said, if there is one thing that could keep Hillary Clinton

from the presidency, it's an FBI investigation.

But there's still only four states that really matter, Florida, Ohio,

Right now, Clinton has beyond the margin of error leads

This would have to have a truly significant impact for the election

There is a point about a week ago when I was prepared to say that

Clinton had a 95% chance of winning this election.

Based on what has happened in the last 48 hours,

It is still very likely, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I thought the 2000 election would be the best election of my lifetime,

And then I thought 2008 would be amazing, because we had two

challenger candidates and the first African-American President.

It is ugly, it's painful, it is as negative as anything

The public is angry, the country, overall, is frustrated.

But for entertainment value, these candidates probably should

have charged us money, because it's better than any movie

at ever seen, it's better than any TV show.

That was Frank Luntz. He may be right or wrong about Mrs Clinton

still having an 80% chance of winning. I would bet on an 80%

chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to a high-profile American pollster and

strategist last night and he took a rather different view to Frank

Luntz. He thought, and I think some other high-profile commentators

agree, that this is actually much more serious than some people

realise. There are an awful lot of undecided voters out there looking

for an excuse to vote Trump. They do not like what they see in either

candidate. But because this FBI probe is not going to conclude

before the election, the question, the doubt over Hillary Clinton,

gives them an excuse to back Trump. The thing that will play on the

minds of the voters is, could the 100 day honeymoon turning to the 100

day divorce? Which even be impeached? It may give some people

an excuse not to vote for Mrs Clinton. It could provide a problem

in terms of energising her base The battle ground almost matters more

than the polls. Florida and Pennsylvania have been trending to

Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win both. He does not get in without

both. He needs both. Just coming up in the latest BBC News, the

Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs Clinton is now only one point ahead

in the national poll. One point Even given my caveat that the state

battles are most important. That is incredibly close? It is. Polls

yesterday showed Trump nationally closing of. -- up. There is a clear

trend and movement. This has reinforced everything that people

who have a problem with Hillary Clinton know about Hillary Clinton.

Trump is running this insurgent campaign. We have seen at here with

Brexit. If you are running an insurgent campaign, you want to be

against the ultimate establishment insider and that is what Hillary

Clinton is. I suggested it was bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of

the FBI is interesting as well. This is a separate investigation into a

former congressman, Anthony Wiener, who had done all sorts of things. He

seemed to be sex text thing a minor. A 15-year-old girl. The FBI

investigate. They get his laptop to see what else he has been too. In

the course of that, his wife, now separated, the closest adviser to

Hillary Clinton, they find on the laptop e-mails involving the Clinton

server to her. And yet the FBI cannot, it needs now a separate

warrant to access these e-mails It hasn't got that yet. It has got a

warrant to do the congressman e-mails. On the basis of not knowing

the content, this has happened. Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican,

this guy. Earlier this year he was being praised to the hilt by

Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is a nightmare for her. You described

the whole sequence. There is nothing definitive to doubt in this

sequence. All he is saying is he has discovered more e-mails in effect.

They are from the congressman's former wife. On Anthony Wiener's

laptop, which apparently she used sometimes. But what that shows is

that for all the scrutiny of modern politicians, they cannot escape

caricature. And as Tim was just saying, her weakness is perceived to

be secretive, elitism and complacency about that elitism. And

so just the announcement of a reopening of the investigation so

fuels that caricature, you have just revealed a poll giving her a 1%

lead. That must be related to what has happened. It is without a shred

of evidence that she has done anything wrong. You can see how

because people only see things encourage kids, that is deadly

serious. -- in caricature. An American friend of mine said we have

got our October surprise but we don't know what it is. The FBI must

surely come under massive pressure. It did its -- it did this against

the Justice Department. The difficulty the FBI had was that this

information, for what it's worth, it came to them. Were they not to have

said something and it worked to have come out later, they would have been

accused of a massive cover-up. They are dammed if they do, dammed if

they don't. There is still time for another surprise. And early November

surprise. Who knows if there might still be something that comes out on

Donald Trump? This is the first election where I can remember we

have had two October surprises already. There are is stuff about

tapes knocking around about Donald Trump saying racist things. The

Clintons have got a lot of friends. It would be a big surprise if we did

not see anything else in the next few days.

Just when you think it could not get more interesting, it has. There has

been plenty in the papers lately about the Ukip leadership saying

unpleasant things about each other. But what about Mr Farage himself?

What's he up to? Well, on BBC Two tonight we may

find out the answer. Well, I'm led to believe

she's very experienced. But I don't think Strictly Come

Dancing is for me. That is, unless, of course,

you fancy popping a cheeky zero No, I don't think Strictly

Come Dancing is for me. Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just

lost your programme one viewer. I might have nothing to do these

days but, realistically, Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It

is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel Farage gets his life back. A number

of runners and riders. Let's come straight down to it. Who would be

the next leader of Ukip? Probably Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite.

The one who has the backing, not very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim

Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a big donor. The best of a rather weak

lot. I think Paul Nuttall should squeak through. I interviewed all

three of them this week. Mr Cassandra is a lively character and

he knows how to make a few headlines. With a bit of money

behind him, anything is possible. This is a guy who has been to the

States, who has literally studied what Trump has done. Pees on

secondment for the time being. The guy who is his line manager is one

of Donald Trump's campaign stop He is extraordinarily right-wing. I am

told he kept a picture of Enoch Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater

is one of his heroes, for example. There are other candidates. I would

suggest, put out as a hypothesis, Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst

nightmare. They are more vulnerable in the North. Paul Nuttall is from

Merseyside, a working-class background, performs well on

television. He is a really good interviewee. He is one of the best

around in politics at the moment. However, I think whoever gets it has

a massive task. The clip of this Nigel Farage satire partly shows

why. His dominance was overwhelming. He, in many ways, did a brilliant

job at keeping the show on the road. The trouble for all new political

parties is keeping it going is tough. A very different party, the

SDP, with all those glamorous figures in it, lasted eight years,

something like that. I think they are in real trouble at the moment

because of the implosion we have been seeing in front of our eyes and

the ideal -- ideological splits Whoever gets it will face a tough

tussle. All three of the main contenders want to put Nigel Farage

in the House of Lords. They were falling over themselves to soak up

two farads. That is how you win this election.

Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting his money on? He said he supports

Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He

thinks it is terribly disorganised, dysfunctional and doesn't want a

great deal to do with it for the foreseeable future.

It is not quite Trump the Clinton but it is interesting. That is it.

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. And all of next week. Jo Coburn will

be your next Sunday because I am off to the United States to begin to

rehearse presenting the BBC's US election night coverage on the th

of November. It will be here on BBC One, BBC

world, BBC News Channel and BBC online.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

A stone stained with blood and beset with a curse.

The Moonstone is of inestimable value in India.

Its appointed guardians would move heaven and earth to reclaim it

Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.

You've got to do something! It's only you that can!