27/11/2016 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?

After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.

Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency

The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.

Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms

of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?

Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet

minister Owen Paterson go head-to-head.

On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire,

we find out what's being done to avert a winter crisis in the NHS.

Can our hospitals cope with increased demand

And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme

Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news

of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came

to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader

as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social

justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"

President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader

as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death

would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people

finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".

Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,

Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader

was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged

I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the

reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I

noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to

Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he

was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,

agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many

people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been

inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream

consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this

respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would

be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.

Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have

looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection

for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error

dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?

He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He

wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually

look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other

countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a

champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been

utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have

thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic

failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when

Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the

debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any

criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There

were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would

have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban

solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It

existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,

who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday

saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the

world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He

never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks

ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The

lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated

stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was

working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there

will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet

and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say

it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism

that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime

Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to

open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing

brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.

When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying

the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as

all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a

leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either

decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it

was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure

worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.

There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they

sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris

Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to

deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.

And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr

Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.

That was what made it so fascinating.

Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS

in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020

on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth

Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling

"Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,

but some of the proposals are already running into local

opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.

Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.

But east of England ambulance call operators

they're sending an early intervention vehicle

with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.

It's being piloted here for over 65s with

When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be

treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.

Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,

taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,

So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided

The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able

to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,

to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand

where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how

best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems

that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.

This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how

You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.

The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.

What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.

Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went

through after broad public and political consultation

with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.

It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS

trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.

It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide

The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS

in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion

worth of efficiencies across the country.

In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health

and care partnerships, and each one will provide

a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,

provide better services and save money.

So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people

in the health service and local government,

The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending

growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.

STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way

But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number

of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle

ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed

This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his

I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close

all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out

of the acute sector who are elderly and looking

That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,

All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,

But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.

The Government's sustainability and transformation plans

for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.

The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings

within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.

There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.

Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week

about the importance of community hospitals in general,

These are proposals out to consultation.

What could happen if these plans get blocked?

If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come

to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned

deterioration and services becoming unstable and service

The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement

but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs

are in the interests of local people.

Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England

to push through these controversial regional plans,

which will soon face public scrutiny.

We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,

I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,

Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of

efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of

independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22

billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you

drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have

been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that

some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community

pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000

pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and

GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,

which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a

local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these

efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from

Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve

health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable

transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical

health, mental health and social care, for those services to

collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented

system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground

has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,

the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By

2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to

redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the

money in. So of course, getting these services working better

together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would

have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the

last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is

an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?

Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22

billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.

But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they

said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have

changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by

2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by

20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually

transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the

commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been

cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year

project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the

Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week

there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the

efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by

2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now

for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with

everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers

and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I

had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they

expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by

now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?

To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The

budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like

co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a

plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in

2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is

committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently

John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are

talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current

spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the

money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If

you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from

the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?

That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for

Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to

give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the

Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do

it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give

the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like

any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what

the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.

I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election

with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has

been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.

You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not

a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment

to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting

a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about

4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that

substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have

access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to

be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap

in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what

this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an

efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we

agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see

productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through

investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.

One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They

are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe

that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that

contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking

about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30

billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend

more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper

care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40

billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the

account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that

and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with

that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we

are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the

investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.

The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in

A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in

hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save

the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the

Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What

I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your

reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi

Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger

of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree

with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a

result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just

going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of

these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see

if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they

have the support of local authorities because they now have a

role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the

right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.

We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they

don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,

you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with

finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are

cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like

5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector

in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long

term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very

sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the

sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,

which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy

nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of

the other countries, European countries included, we need to put

up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the

Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me

down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up

with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European

average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,

but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need

substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was

extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the

Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,

whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to

us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.

Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations

before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait

for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote

If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats

and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU

referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before

And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested

that the referendum result could be reversed.

In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,

Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,

having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis

John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting

of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit

were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".

He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"

That prompted the former Conservative leader

Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.

He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply

because they disagree with the original result does

seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."

So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms

of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?

Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect

the will of the people and that means they must have their say

in a referendum on the terms of the deal."

But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support

One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.

He backs the idea of a second referendum.

But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,

"Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting

To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum

on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two

In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,

and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister

Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have

spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or

you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the

referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I

said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we

will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but

we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the

British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would

then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's

lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,

you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on

immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many

fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be

a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many

occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different

thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be

true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the

destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about

the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be

appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft

Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more

difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign

but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on

the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on

what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and

putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous

idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an

impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make

sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard

Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum

campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means

making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected

politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting

control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was

clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million

votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more

than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14

million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very

clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we

going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to

trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better

place. OK, I need to get a debate going.

Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was

going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a

second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the

worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a

ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could

go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the

European Union is less important than the opinion of the British

people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me

precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain

voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson

and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the

range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.

There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,

getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,

this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.

The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our

laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of

what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would

be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the

hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The

biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British

history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally

proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a

strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks

like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.

He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct

possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a

second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on

ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British

people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and

keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to

that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson has obviously not been paying

attention. You ask me that question at the start. Owen and his kind have

to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said

that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,

they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European

Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the

process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why

Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to

ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote

by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it

best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would

have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because

I don't remember when he said that. -- you have to put that in context.

Independent, 19th of September. That is a decision on the outcome. The

central point is that the British people voted for departure, not a

destination. In response to the claim that this is undemocratic, if

it is democratic to have one referendum, how can it be

undemocratic to have two? Owen Paterson, the British government, on

the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain

members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs

union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude

towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the

government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have

no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental

case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a

clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment

figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do

to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not

delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,

wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people

who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it

will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the

whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is

very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the

answer, we will keep asking the question. Did it with the Irish and

French. It is... It would really anger the British people, would it

not? That is an interesting question, Andrew. I don't think it

would. All the evidence I see in public meetings I attended, and I

think it is beginning to show in the opinion polls, although there hasn't

been a proper one on this yet, I suspect there is a majority in

Britain who would wish to see a second referendum on the outcome.

They take the same view as I do. What began with an open democratic

process cannot end with a government stitch up. Contrary to what Owen

suggests, there is public support for this. And far from damaging the

government and the political class, it showed that we are prepared to

listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown, have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew,

as you well know, I have eaten five hats. You cannot have a second

referendum until you eat your hat on my programme. We will leave it

there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen Paterson, thank you much. I have

eaten a hat on your programme. I don't remember!

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Yes, hello, you're watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire,

We find out what's being done to avert a winter crisis in the NHS.

Can our hospitals cope with increasing demand

And, as the man who murdered Jo Cox begins life in prison, we ask,

Our guests today are John Mann, Labour MP for Bassetlaw,

who's with me in the studio, and at Westminster is

Craig Whittaker, Conservative MP for Calder Valley.

Hospitals will start the daily reporting of so-called

to try to prevent problems that could lead to operations

being cancelled and the shutdown of A units at critical times.

The past two winters have been the worst for more than a decade

with hospitals creaking under the strain.

So, what's being done to avoid a full-blown winter crisis?

Last winter, an average of around 900 people a week turned up

at Harrogate's hospitals with conditions they thought

so urgent they needed to go straight to the emergency departments.

And this is one of the smallest and quiet hospital trusts

across the whole of Yorkshire and the Humber.

Down the road in Leeds it was just over 4000.

For the health service, those servers billion

Ask anybody who arrives on these corridors at an A department

like this one here in Harrogate, "why are they here?"

and the answer is usually "well, where else do you go?"

Well, as far as the NHS is concerned, there are alternatives

and they've just launched a big campaign for the

to explain to people exactly what those alternatives are.

Do you have a long-term health condition or are you over 65?

Cold weather can be seriously bad for your health.

But there are things you can do to stay well this winter.

Make sure you get your prescription medicines before the holidays

Your home should be at least 18 Celsius, 65 Fahrenheit.

And if you start to feel unwell, even if it is just a cough

or a cold, get help from your pharmacist before it

We're all here to help you stay well this winter.

But many of those turning up here at A say all that advice

is very useful but if they want a doctor and can't get a GP

appointment, who can blame them for going to hospital?

I don't think we can ever make patients were wanting to access care

I don't think we can ever blame patients for wanting to access care

and that is what we provide but it is also what GPs provide both

The services that are offered across the NHS to try to target

being able to offer those services to patients in the right way.

I think it is very difficult for us to try and get the right messages

out to people about which services they need to access.

We try and do that and try and assist the public in signposting

But there is an argument that the winter crisis or health

But there is an argument that the winter crisis for health

Beds blocked by patients who should be discharged

Amongst the most vocal following that line is the body

Our hospitals are under huge pressure and they have

been throughout the year and they will continue to be

All of us need to play our part in trying to support our hospital

colleagues and hospitals to run smoothly to ensure that they only

treat patients who really need to be in hospital and that would try

and find alternative services elsewhere for patients who don't

The promised four hour waiting limits being broken regularly,

and even more turning up the hospital.

So, John Mann, how confident are you that the NHS can avoid

If he'd been on a Saturday night he'd have seen something

far more congested even than what he saw in Harrogate.

Not enough money, not enough sensible decision-making

and the government not even giving the public health budget to the NHS,

which is needed to do some of that preventative work that the doctor

Greg Whittaker, based on the last couple of years of experience it

doesn't bode well for the NHS this winter, does it?

I think our NHS locally has coped incredibly well over the last two

years and I can speak particularly about Calderdale where we have seen

an amount of money for winter contingency being given early

on and the doctors planning well in advance for that smooth

transition through that traditionally tough period of time.

There are some big issues and John is right about things like,

you know, the social care and health and well-being budgets being put

into health will go a long way to help with the crisis on going.

So what are you doing to lobby the government because this

is the biggest concern among doctors, the fact that patients

don't have anywhere to go when they beat hospital.

Yes, absolutely right and actually I spok

in the House of Commons only

this week on that very subject and it is one of the things

that the government had to look at in a real, serious way

because this is a crisis and a time bomb waiting to go off.

Part of the problem, John Mann, is A is seen by many not as a last

resort but often the first resort because they can't

Well, there isn't enough money for GPs but one thing

the government could do, I have asked them to do it

in my area, made a specific request of government that they have not yet

responded to, which is give the whole of the social care budget

for adults and the whole of the public health budget,

That would mean that dealing particularly with elderly

people and prevention, the NHS would have total control

of the budget and that would give GPs more

That would help patients and it would take some

But the government is too scared, too scared, to make that

decision and I'm offering, we'll go first in my area.

I'll head it up in saying we'll take the risks.

I say it will work and I say that'll make a huge difference

and that is without a penny of extra money.

But I also think we could do with more money as well.

Craig Whittaker, we found out this week that two thirds of NHS

The debts total and eye watering ?1.85 billion.

How on earth do we expect the NHS to cope with those figures?

To be fair, that budget is reducing year-on-year.

They are getting the costs under control and they

One thing about the NHS of course is there is still huge

On the topic that John has to spoken about,

it is not often I agree with John Mann but he is absolutely

If we give the GPs and hospitals all this money to get on their way,

there will be incentives for them to push through and stop the bed

I'm absolutely in agreement with what John was saying.

So, are you going to take that message to Jeremy Hunt?

As I have said to you, I have already mentioned it

in the House of Commons this week and there are more and more people

getting on this bandwagon and realising that actually,

until we get integration of budgets and stop this silo budgeting

right around the NHS, then nothing is going to change,

John Mann, you backed the Brexit campaign back in June.

Did you ever sign up to this figure that ?350 million a week would be

You will remember that I actually tackled Boris Johnson

during the campaign in the Treasury Committee

I did point out that there's ?650 million that we're not

recharging for in governments for their residents,

Not the individuals who pay the governments.

The Irish government, ?200 million alone,

and we're not charging them and that is every year.

While over one Parliament that more than gets rid of the hospital

deficits and I'm demanding that government takes proper action

and listens to me on it and then, that wouldn't cost the taxpayer,

There's a proposal this week that patients should have two showed

There's a proposal this week that patients should have to show

a passport in order to get treatment.

I support the principle that if you're coming from abroad

you should be recharged, ie your government,

not you personally, that is the situation.

Every other government in Europe does that to us, rightly so.

What a nonsense that the government is throwing away

That would be quite a bit of money back into our NHS.

Is that something you support, Greg Whittaker, measures to crack

down on the number of overseas patients using the health service?

Without question, this is one of the wastages in the NHS

I think John just mentioned the figure of ?650 million.

Imagine how much extra that can do in our hospitals

It is vitally important that the NHS start addressing some of these real

wastages that are in our system and it is not because

they need legislation, the legislation is already there.

It is just that they refuse to do it.

A topic we will come back to another time no doubt but this week's

political events were of course dominated by Philip Hammond's first

With our round-up in 60 seconds, here's Richard Edwards.

The devil was in the detail PhilipHammond 's announcement

on Wednesday with a promise the North would benefit

from spending on roads, rail and broadband.

I will commit an additional ?1.1 billion of investment

But some detail did emerge, such as ?3.7 million for two

flood schemes in Otley and Stainforth near Doncaster.

Both have been affected by severe flooding in the past.

One winner was the World Road Race Cycling Championships,

which are coming to Yorkshire in 2019 after the success

The event gets ?24 million to help with infrastructure and legacy.

But the surprise was more than ?7 million for repairs to

The stately home was said to be the inspiration for Pemberly

in Jane Austen's novel Pride And Prejudice.

The crumbling property is facing a ?50 billion restoration bill.

The Chancellor described the building as being at a critical

state of being lost to future generations.

Yes, Wentworth Woodhouse was probably the only rabbit

in the Chancellor's hat this week but let me ask you both,

John Mann first of all, are the people, the majority

of people you represent, better or worse off as a result

Well, we don't know because he hasn't shown us the money.

When it comes to infrastructure, in terms of the way the economy

is going, what this chap Hammond has done if he has sneakily admitted

is going, what this chap Hammond has done is he has sneakily admitted

the truth, George Osborne had built up a massive debt,

double the debt in six years, and all he has done is confirm that,

blames it on Brexit but actually all he has done is said

that's the real position, we're in quite a mess,

because George Osborne and the Tories have messed up

the economy because they haven't invested in manufacturing

All they have done is give it away to their friends in the bank.

Right, OK Craig Whittaker, John Mann says we're in quite a mess.

Well, we are in a mess but trust me, it is not because of anything

the Tory government have done over the last six years.

We have been trying to sort out the mess and the legacy left

But you've been failing, Craig, you been failing on it.

All that aside, there are some benefits to a lot of people

I know in my constituency without question one of the key

things for some of the semi and rural areas is trying to get

As is the road network stuff as well, which is vitally important.

But, you know, what we do need to see now is we need to see some

of this money and this action coming forward.

People want to see spades in the grounds.

People want to see some of these benefits coming forward because has

We have been talking about it for a long time and we need

You're right, we have been talking about it for a long time.

But the broadband, that was promised by George Osborne.

He was going to do it by 2013, then 2015.

It is the same old money that hasn't been properly spent.

You have to admit, George Osborne doubled the national debt.

He was a total disaster as Chancellor and this poor

chap Hammond is having to pick up the pieces.

Well, he has doubled the national debt, John,

because actually the spending plans that you guys left us

You can't just turn that tap off straightaway, as you well know.

So, let's not make any, let's not be under any illusions

here who's fault is it is that we are in the mess that we are in.

Are you seriously saying we'd be any less get

I offered to be Chancellor but unfortunately Jeremy didn't

agree to that but I'm still available should

But where I agree with John McDonald is invest in manufacturing.

I've got a list of companies who could do with some

money to create more jobs in research and development.

I'm suggesting they give Bassetlaw ?100 million of this money

for housing infrastructure to deliver 5000 houses.

I can identify exactly who can build them and where it should be.

There were going to hold the government to account

on all the waffle they are giving us and I am saying all right,

different party in power, I'll be your mates if you can help

us out and put that money in my area and therefore, Craig,

if you could have words with them, the more money in areas like mine.

I suspect it's a lot of hot air because it's Hammond,

Surrey MP, who opposed house-building in his own area,

doesn't want manufacturing and he's a friend of the bankers.

John, as per usual, you're going on about stuff

and you know down in Bassetlaw, in the Calder valley,

we have 19% of the people in the Calder Valley work

in manufacturing, so let us not to walk down our manufacturers

Oh, of course we do, without question.

But you will see there are some huge announcement this week about R,

about research and development, for our universities for example,

about how companies can tap into that source

I know a lot of companies in the Calder Valley,

there's manufacturers who are the backbone

of our constituencies, that will be tapping

I'll back you getting money in the Calder Valley

in manufacturing if you'll back my manufacturers,

my house-builders, get them in my area.

Go and see Hammond, let's have him delivering the money.

Because he needs to show us the money.

If he shows us the money, we might get somewhere.

Well, John, I think if you've got some bespoke plans already that

you're ready to go with I'm sure they'd be very open to listening

to how your manufacturers and builders want to spend the money

so I'd absolutely support that, as I would for anything

Come back to us if and when you manage to squeeze some money out

We're going to move on now because on Wednesday Thomas Mair

was given a whole life sentence for the murder of the former Batley

Now, since Jo's murder, spending on MPs' security

So, how has her death affected MPs and concerns for their safety?

Of course we feel less safe because in order to do our job

and to do it well we have to come out of what he will call

and to do it well we have to come out of what people call

the Westminster bubble and what keeps democracy alive

in this place is going back to your constituency,

talking to people on the corner of the street, talking

to people at the bus stop, talking to people as you bump

That is the beauty of the job and the reality at the core of great

That something so awful could happen in a place that is just so ordinary,

a place where all of us, I think, would feel comfortable

and safe and at home, that something brutal

could happen I think is really difficult to comprehend.

I personally don't feel any less safe but certainly much more aware

of my surroundings and where I'm going and making sure that people

know where I am at any given point that I think it's a real shame

that we haven't seen this as a watershed moment.

It has been incredibly significant, very, very sad and I would hope that

people would take a slightly more considered approach to those people

We know that there are strongly held views that people have.

We are politicians and democrats first and foremost.

We have to find ways that we don't take a step back from engaging

in that political discourse but that we do provide a safe space

and we recruit good people into politics.

One of my biggest fears is that we'll find it now harder

to attract good, bright, young women into politics

as a result of what has happened to Jo.

Some thoughts there of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire MPs.

Craig Whittaker, do you believe MPs need greater protection

It is very difficult and Batley and Spen is physically my neighbour,

so it has affected not just us, you know, in west Yorkshire,

but a lot of people locally knew Jo and it had a big effect on everybody

but we do get a fair level of protection.

If we are down in Westminster it is like Fort Knox

and since the Jo Cox thing, and in fact prior to the Jo Cox

thing, we've been made very much aware of how we can

enhance our security, so our homes and our offices.

But the reality is the nature of the job, us getting out

and about in our communities, which I do on a regular basis,

on a weekly basis, it is very, very difficult to protect

yourself so, you know, despite what's happened,

I carry on and I'm sure John and all my colleagues do,

but you are a little bit more aware of the dangers around you.

John Mann, Sarah Champion, MP for Rotherham, says

she is still waiting for money from IPSA,

the expenses watchdog, to pay for security that she has

been advised to have from the police.

I mean, do you think IPSA is taking this seriously?

I think there's been a lot of bureaucracy that in the way

I think there's been a lot of bureaucracy put in the way

I live in my constituency and I've had to change some

Not since this horrendous tragedy but over the last four

or five years with various incidents and threats and,

you know, it is right and proper that our staff,

our families, homes, offices, there is a degree

of sensible protection there but we should also remember

there are firefighters, ambulance crew, police officers,

who are taking risks and getting attacked more regularly than MPs

are and, you know, there are limits to what can be done.

I don't intend not to make myself available to my constituents.

I will walk through the high street constantly and repeatedly

There's a bit more of a risk from terrorism or from extremist

terrorists like this man who murdered Jo Cox.

There's quite a bit we can do but in terms of our private

protection there are bits that should and need to be done

but I think that is getting done and the public, by the way,

shouldn't begrudge spending a bit of extra money to ensure

that we have bombproof windows and things like that, just to ensure

Craig Whittaker, have politicians become

Well, it is difficult, you know, a lot of people say there is only

one profession worse than being a politician

and that is being a banker, so it is the nature

Of course, for every person that agreed with you there is another

It is the nature of the job we have also but, you know, the thing

about all this level of security and what have you is that actually

where we live is our home, just like it is everybody else's

We have to do, you know, we do have to feel safe

like everybody else does as well so I think people instead

of getting on social media and putting out death threats,

which has happened to us all or, you know sending that anonymous

letter through the post, or whatever it is they are going

to do, just think twice about doing it because it is not just the MP

you're getting at is quite often the MP's family and of course

the staff who work in our offices to that also becomes

And just finally John Mann, there is a lot of hate

How do we know that the keyboard warrior who comes out with bile

on social media isn't going to be a physical threat?

You know, good journalists from the BBC get this kind of abuse

and the better-known they are, the more they get it.

I'd quite like to start sticking billboards up some of these

people in their gardens so that their neighbours can see

the kinds of people they are and I might start doing

that with some of the locals who have sent some unacceptably rude

stuff to me and everyone can then judge what they really are.

Thank you both for your thoughts today, to John Mann

And with that we will now go back to Andrew Neil in London.

have got to make sure London is open. Thank you. Andrew, back to

you. Is Theresa May serious

about curbing executive pay? Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's

successor as Ukip leader? And can the Lib Dems pull off

a by-election upset in Richmond? So,,, on pay talk about the

executive of what executives get compared to the average worker in

the company, giving shareholders real power to vote down pay rises if

they don't like them, which is pretty much what Ed Miliband

proposed in the general election in 2015. Is she serious about this? She

is very serious, and the Tory party probably does owe Ed Miliband an

apology for trashing his ideas and 2015 and then putting them all up

for votes in November 20 16. She is very serious, and this all comes

back to her desperate fear that unless capitalism reforms itself and

becomes more acceptable to the just about managing or even 78% of the

country who are not earning vast wealth at anywhere near the figures

you see in the City, serious things will happen and the political sense

of trust will implode. She has already been bartered down by her

own Cabinet on this. She wanted to go further and make workers on the

board mandatory. They have managed to stop that. What will her fallback

position be on workers on the board if she is not able to get it into

some claw? We would like to have workers on the board, but whatever

they do on the board there will have no voting powers on the board. When

you look at what was leaked out over the weekend, that we should know the

ratio of the top to the average and that shareholders who own the

company should determine, in the end, the highest-paid salaries, you

kind of think, what could the possible objection be to any of

that? Two things. One, I agree with Tom that she is deadly serious about

this agenda and it comes under the banner, that sentence in the party

conference speech about "It's time to focus on the good that government

can do". She is by instinct more of an interventionist than Cameron and

Osborne. But she is incredibly cautious, whether it is through the

internal constraints of opposition within Cabinet, or her own small C

Conservative caution in implementing this stuff. Part of the problem is

the practicalities. George Osborne commission will Hutton to do a

report which came out with similar proposals, which were never

implemented. It is quite hard to enforce. It will antagonise business

leaders when she's to woo them again in this Brexit furore. So there are

problems with it. And judging by what has happened so far, my guess

is that the aim will be genuinely bold and interesting, and the

implementation incredibly cautious. Does it matter if she annoys some

business leaders? Isn't that part of her brand? Will there be problems on

the Tory backbenches with it? I think there will be and I think it

does matter at this sensitive time for when we are positioning

ourselves as a country and whether we are going to brand ourselves as a

great city of business, implementing quite interventionist policies. Any

suggestion that the government can control how much the top earners

get, I think would be received in a hostile way. What would be wrong

with the shareholders, who own the company, determining the pay of the

higher hands, the executives? Morally, you can absolutely make

that argument but to business leaders, they will not like it.

Ultimately, this will not come down to more than a row of beans. There

was a huge debate about whether there should be quotas of women on

boards. In the end, that never happened. All we get is figures. But

quotas of women, for which there is a case and a case against too, that

was a government mandate. This is not, this is simply empowering

shareholders who own the company to determine the pay of the people they

hire. There is a strong moral argument for it. Strong economic

argument. But the Tory backbenchers will not like this. The downside is

that this is a world where companies are thinking about upping sticks to

Europe. No, they say they are thinking of that. Not one has done

it yet. Others have made massive investments in this country. But is

it not an incentive for those making these threats to actually do it? In

Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated by Brussels. It is a vivid way of

showing you are addressing the issue of inequality. I think she will go

with it, but let's move on to Ukip. I think we will get the result

tomorrow. There are the top three candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne

Evans and on my right, John Reid Evans. One of them will be the next

leader. Who is going to win? It is widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall

and is probably the outcome that the Labour Party fears most. Paul

Nuttall is a very effective communicator. He is not a household

name, far from it, but people will begin to learn more about him and

find that he is actually quite a strong leader. Can people Ukip

together again after this shambolic period since the referendum? If

anyone can, he can. And his brand of working collar, Northern Ukip is the

thing that will work for them. Do you think he is the favourite? It

would be amazing if he doesn't win. His greatest problem will be getting

Nigel Farage off his back. He is going on a speaking tour of North

America. A long speaking tour. Ukip won this EU referendum. They had the

chance to hoover up these discontented Labour voters in the

north, and all he has done is associated with Ukip with Farage.

But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip and will be glad to be hands of it.

The bigger problem is money. If it is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know

the results yet, but he is the favourite, if it is him, I would

suggest that that is the result Labour is frightened of most. To be

honest, I think they are frightened of Ukip whatever the result.

Possibly with good cause. The reason I qualify that is that what you call

a shambles over the summer has been something that goes beyond Monty

Python in its absurdity and madness. That calls into question whether it

can function as a political party when you have what has gone on. The

number of leaders itself has been an act of madness. In a context which

should be fantastic for them. They have won a referendum. There is a

debate about what form Brexit should take, it is a dream for them, and

they have gone bonkers. If he can turn it around, I agree that he is a

powerful media communicator, and then it is a threat to Labour. But

he has got to show that first. Indeed. The by-election in Richmond

in south-west London, called by Zac Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it

turned out to be a by-election about Heathrow, or has it turned into a

by-election, which is what the Lib Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will

know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems win, they will turn it into an EU

referendum. It seems incredibly close now. The Lib Dems are swamping

Richmond. They had 1000 activists there yesterday. That is getting on

for 100th of the population of the place! If the Lib Dems don't manage

to win on Thursday and don't manage to turn it into an EU referendum

despite all their efforts, it will probably be a disaster for the

party. What do you hear, Isabel? I hear that the Lib Dems have

absolutely swamped the constituency, but this may backfire. I saw a bit

of this myself, living in Witney, when the Lib Dems also swamped and

people began to get fed up of their aggressive tactics. I understand

that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously optimistic that he will pull this

one off. Quick stab at the result? I don't know. But we are entering a

period when by-elections are acquiring significant again. If the

Lib Dems were to make a game, it would breathe life into that near

moribund party like nothing else. Similarly, other by-elections in

this shapeless political world we are in are going to become

significant. We don't know if we are covering it live on Thursday night

yet because we have to find at the time they are going to declare.

Richmond are quite late in declaring, but if it is in the early

hours, that is fine. If it is on breakfast television, they be not. I

want to show you this. Michael Gove was on the Andrew Marr Show this

morning. In the now notorious comment that I made, I was actually

cut off in midstream, as politicians often. The point I made was not that

all experts are that is nonsense. Expert engineers, doctors and

physicists are not wrong. But there is a subclass of experts,

particularly social scientists, who have to reflect on some of the

mistakes they have made. And the recession, which was predicted that

we would have if we voted to leave, has gone like a puff of smoke. So

economic experts, he talks about. The Chancellor has based all of his

forward predictions in this Autumn Statement on the economic expert

forecasters. The Office for Budget Responsibility has said it is 50-50,

which is the toss of a coin. But what was he supposed to do? You

would ideally have to have a Budget that had several sets of scenarios,

and that is impossible. Crystal ball territory. But you do wonder if

governments are right to do so much of their fiscal projections on the

basis of forecasts which turn out to be wrong. They have nothing else to

go on. The Treasury forecast is to be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast

will prove not to be exact. As you say, they admitted that they are

navigating through fog at the moment. But he also added that it

was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit, even if you accept that these

forecasts might be wrong, is causing such a level of uncertainty. He put

the figure at 60 billion. That could come to haunt him. He hasn't got a

clue. He admitted it. He said, Parliament mandates me to come up

with something, so I am going to give you a number. But I wouldn't

trust it if I were you, he basically said. I agree with you. The man who

borrowed 122 billion more off the back of a coin toss was Philip

Hammond. It begs the question, what does that say about the confidence

Philip Hammond has in his own government's renegotiation? Not a

huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond quoted the OBR figures. He basically

said, this is uncertain and it looks bad, and on we go with it. It is a

very interesting situation, he said. He was for Remain and he works in a

department which regards it as a disaster, whatever everyone else

thinks. I have just been told we are covering the by-election. We are

part of the constitution. Jo Coburn will have more

Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here on BBC One

next Sunday at 11. Remember - if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics. to signify the Africans

who were here. The story of Henry VIII

and his six wives