05/02/2017 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire


05/02/2017

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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Theresa May pledged to help people who are "just about managing",

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and this week her government will announce new measures to boost

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the number of affordable homes and improve conditions for renters.

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After a US court suspends Donald Trump's travel ban and rules

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it could be unconstitutional, one of the President's inner circle

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tells me there is no "chaos", and that Donald Trump's White House

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is making good on his campaign promises.

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As the Government gets into gear for two years

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of Brexit negotiations, we report on the haggling to come

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over the UK's Brexit bill for leaving the European Union -

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and the costs and savings once we've left.

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And with me, as always, a trio of top political

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journalists - Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme,

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So, more anguish to come this week for the Labour party as the House

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of Commons continues to debate the bill which paves the way

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Last week, Labour split over the Article 50 bill,

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with a fifth of Labour MPs defying Jeremy Corbyn to vote against.

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Five shadow ministers resigned, and it's expected Mr Corbyn

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will have to sack more frontbenchers once the bill is voted

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Add to that the fact that the Labour Leader's close ally

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Diane Abbot failed to turn up for the initial vote -

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blaming illness - and things don't look too rosy

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The Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry was asked

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about the situation earlier on the Andrew Marr show.

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The Labour Party is a national party and we represent the nation,

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and the nation is divided on this, and it is very difficult.

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Many MPs representing majority Remain constituencies have this very

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difficult balancing act between - do I represent my constituency,

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Labour, as a national party, have a clear view.

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We fought to stay in Europe, but the public have spoken,

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But the important thing now is not to give Theresa May a blank check,

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we have to make sure we get the right deal for the country.

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That was Emily Thornberry. Helen, is this like a form of Chinese water

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torture for the Labour Party? And for journalists, to! We are in a

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situation where no one really thinks it's working. A lot of authority has

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drained away from Jeremy Corbyn but no one can do anything about it.

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What we saw from the leadership contest is on the idea of a Blairite

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plot to get rid of him. You are essentially stuck in stasis. The

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only person that can remove Jeremy Corbyn is God or Jeremy Corbyn.

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Authority may have moved from Mr Corbyn but it's not going anywhere

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else, there's not an alternative centre of authority? Not quite, but

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Clive Lewis is name emerging, the Shadow Business Secretary. A lot of

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the Labour left, people like Paul Mason, really like him and would

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like to see him in Corbyn. I think that's why Jeremy Corbyn do

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something extraordinary next week and abstain from Article 50, the

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main bill itself, to keep his Shadow Cabinet together. That clip on

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Andrew Marr, point blank refusing to say if Labour will vote for Article

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50. The only way Jeremy Corbyn can hold this mess together now is to

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abstain, which would be catastrophic across Brexit constituencies in the

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North. The problem with abstention is everyone will say on the issue of

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our time, the official opposition hasn't got coherent or considered

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policy? I love the way Emily Thornberry said the country is

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divided and we represent the country, in other words we are

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divided at the party as well. The other thing that was a crucial

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moment this week is the debate over whether there should be a so-called

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meaningful vote by MPs on the deal that Theresa May gets. That is a

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point of real danger for Brexit supporters. It may well be there is

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a coalition of Labour and SNP and Remain MPs, Tory MPs, who vote for

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that so-called meaningful vote that could undermine Theresa May's

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negotiation. So Theresa May could have had troubles as well, not plain

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sailing for her? There is no point, apart from lonely Ken Clarke voting

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against Article 50, no point in Tory remainders rebelling. It would have

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been a token gesture with no support. But there might be

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meaningful amendments. One might be on the status of EU nationals... The

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government could lose that. There might be a majority for some of

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those amendments. The ins and outs of the Labour Party, it fascinates

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the Labour Party and journalists. I suspect the country has just moved

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on and doesn't care. You are probably quite right. To be honest I

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struggled to get Labour split stories in my paper any more, the

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bar is so high to make it news. Where it does matter is now not

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everyone will pay huge amounts to the -- of attention to the vote on

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Wednesday. But come the general election in 2020, maybe a little

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earlier, every Tory leaflet and every labour constituency will say

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this guy, this goal, they refuse to vote for Brexit, do you want them in

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power? That is going to be really hard for them. The story next week

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may be Tory splits rather than just Labour ones, we will see.

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Theresa May has made a big deal out of her commitment to help people

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on middle incomes who are "just about managing", and early this week

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we should get a good sense of what that means in practice -

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when plans to bring down the cost of housing and protect renters

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are published in the Government's new white paper.

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Theresa May has promised she'll kick off Brexit negotiations with the EU

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by the end of March, and after months of shadow-boxing

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Ellie Price reports on the battle to come over the UK's Brexit bill,

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and the likely costs and savings once we've left.

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It was the figure that defined the EU referendum campaign.

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It was also a figure that was fiercely disputed, but the promise -

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vote leave and Britain won't have to pay into the EU are any more.

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So, is that what's going to happen now?

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The trouble with buses is you tend to have to wait for them

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and when Theresa May triggers Article 50, the clock starts

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She needs something quicker, something more sporty.

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According to the most recent Treasury figures,

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Britain's gross contribution to the EU, after the rebate

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is taken into account, is about ?14 billion a year.

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There are some complicating factors that means it can go up

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or down year on year, but that's roughly how much the UK

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will no longer sending to Brussels post-Brexit.

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But, there are other payments that Britain will have to shell out for.

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First and foremost, the so-called divorce settlement.

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It is being said, and openly by Commissioner Barnier

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and others in the Commission, that the total financial liability

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as they see it might be in the order of 40-60 billion

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The BBC understands the figure EU negotiators are likely

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to settle on is far lower, around 34 billion euros,

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but what does the money they are going to argue

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Well, that's how much Britain owes for stuff in the EU budget that's

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already signed up for until 2020, one year after we are

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Historically, Britain pays 12% in contributions,

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so the cost to the UK is likely to be between ten

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Then they will look at the 200-250 billion euros of underfunded

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spending commitments, the so-called RAL.

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Britain could also be liable for around 5-7 billion euros

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for its share in the pensions bill for EU staff, that's again

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12% of an overall bill of 50-60 billion.

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Finally there's a share of our assets held by the EU.

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They include things like this building, the European Commission

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Britain could argue it deserves a share back of around 18 billion

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euros from a portfolio that's said to be worth 153 billion euros.

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So, lots for the two sides to discuss in two years of talks.

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They have a great opportunity with the Article 50 talks

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because actually they can hold us to ransom.

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They can say, "You figure out money, we will talk about your trade.

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But until you've figured out the money, we won't," so I think

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a lot of European states think they are in a very strong

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negotiating position at the moment and they intend to make

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The principle is clear, the days of Britain making vast

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contributions to the European Union every year will end.

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Theresa May has already indicated that she would want to sign back up

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to a number of EU agencies on a program-by-program basis.

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The Europol for example, that's the European crime

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agency, or Erasmus Plus, which wants student exchanges.

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If everything stays the same as it is now, it would cost the UK

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675 million euros a year, based on analysis by

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But there are likely to be agencies we don't choose to participate in.

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If we only opted back to those dealing with security,

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trade, universities and, say, climate change,

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it could come with a price tag of 370 million euros per year.

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Of course that's if our European neighbours allow us.

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I wonder if they're going to let me in!

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There will also be a cost to creating a new system to resolve

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trade disputes with other nations once we are no longer part

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Take the EFTA Court which rules on disputes

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between the EU and Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein.

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That costs 4 million euros to run each year,

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though in the Brexit White Paper published this week,

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the Government said it will not be constrained by precedent

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Finally, would the EU get behind the idea of Britain making some

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contribution for some preferential access to its market?

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The sort of thing that Theresa May seems to be hinting

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at are sectoral arrangements, some kind of partial membership

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Switzerland, which has a far less wide-ranging deal than Norway,

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pays about 320 million a year for what it gets into the EU budget,

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but it's not exactly the Swiss deal that we're after.

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The EU institutions hate the Swiss deal because it is codified

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in a huge number of treaties that are messy, complicated

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and cumbersome, and they really don't want to replicate

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Theresa May has been at pains to insist she's in the driving seat

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when it comes to these negotiations, and that she's

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But with so much money up for discussion, it may not be such

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Sadly she didn't get to keep the car!

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And I've been joined to discuss the Brexit balance sheet

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by the director of the Centre for European Reform, Charles Grant,

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and by Henry Newman who runs the think tank Open Europe.

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Henry Newman, these figures that are being thrown about in Brussels at

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the moment, and exit bill of 40-60,000,000,000. What do you make

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of them? I think it is an opening gambit from the institutions and we

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should take them seriously. We listened to Mr Rogers, the former

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ambassador to Brussels in the House of Commons last week, speaking about

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the sort of positions the EU is likely to take in the negotiation. I

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personally think the Prime Minister should be more concerned about

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getting the right sort of trade arrangements, subsequent to our

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departure, than worrying about the exact detail of the divorce

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settlement and the Bill. They might not let them go on to trade until

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they resolve this matter. Where does the Brexit bill, the cost of exit,

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if there is to be one, in terms of a sum of money, where does that come

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in the negotiations, upfront or at the end? The European Commission has

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a firm line on this. You have to talk about the Brexit bill and the

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divorce settlement before you talk about the future relationship.

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Therefore they are saying if you don't sign up for 60 billion or

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thereabouts, we won't talk about the future. Other member states take a

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softer line than that and think you probably have to talk about the

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divorce settlement and Brexit bill as the same -- at the same time as

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the economic situation. If you can do both at the same time, the

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atmosphere may be better natured. You have spoken to people in

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Brussels and are part of a think tank, how Revista gives the figure

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or is it an opening gambit? Most member states and EU institutions

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believe they think it is the true figure but when the negotiations

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start adding the number will come down. As long as the British are

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prepared to sign up to the principle of we owe you a bit of money, as the

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cheque, then people will compromise. What is the ballpark? You had a

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figure of 34 billion, that is news to me, nobody knows because

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negotiations haven't started but I think something lower than 60. Even

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60 would be politically toxic for a British government? I think Theresa

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May is in a strong position, she has united the Conservative Party. You

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could expect coming into this year all the Conservative divisions would

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be laid bare by Gina Miller. But she is leading a united party. Labour

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Party are divided... Coogee get away with paying 30 billion? We should

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give her the benefit of the doubt going into these negotiations, let

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her keep her cards close to her chest. The speech he gave a few

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weeks ago at Lancaster House, our judgment was she laid out as much

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detail as we could have expected at that point. I don't think it's

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helpful for us now to say, we shouldn't be introducing further red

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line. I want you to be helpful and find things out. I would suggest if

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there is a bill, let's say it's 30 billion, let's make it half of what

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the current claims coming out of Brussels. And of course it won't

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have to be paid in one year, I assume it's not one cheque but

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spread over. But we will wait a long time for that 350 million a week or

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what ever it was that was meant to come from Brussels to spend on the

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NHS. That's not going to happen for the next five, six or seven years.

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Everyone has been clear there will be a phased exit programme. The

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question of whether something is political possible for her in terms

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of the divorce settlement will depend on what she gets from the

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European Union in those negotiations. If she ends up

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settling for a bill of about 30 billion which I think would be

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politically... No matter how popular she is, politically very difficult

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for her, it does kill any idea there is a Brexit dividend for Britain.

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Some of the senior officials in London and Brussels are worried this

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issue could crash the talks because it may be possible for Theresa May

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to accept a Brexit bill of 30 billion and if there is no deal and

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will leave EU without a settlement, there is massive legal uncertainty.

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What contract law applies? Can our planes take off from Heathrow?

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Nobody knows what legal rights there are for an EU citizen living here

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and vice versa. If there is no deal at the end of two years, it is quite

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bad for the European economy, therefore they think they have all

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the cards to play and they think if it is mishandled domestically in

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Britain than we have a crash. But there will be competing interests in

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Europe, the Baltic states, Eastern Europe, maybe quite similar of the

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Nordic states, that in turn different from the French, Germans

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or Italians. How will Europe come to a common view on these things? At

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the moment they are quite united backing a strong line, except for

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the polls and Hungarians who are the bad boys of Europe and the Irish who

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will do anything to keep us happy. We should remember their priority is

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not economics, they are not thinking how can they maximise trade with the

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UK, they are under threat. The combination of Trump and Brexit

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scares them. They want to keep the institutions strong. They also want

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to keep Britain. That is the one strong card we have, contributing to

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security. We know we won't be members of the single market, that

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was in the White Paper. The situation of the customs union is

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more complicated I would suggest. Does that have cost? If we can be a

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little bit pregnant in the customs union, does that come with a price

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ticket? We have got some clarity on the customs union, the Prime

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Minister said we would not be part of the... We would be able to do our

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own trade deals outside the EU customs union, and also not be part

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of the common external tariff. She said she is willing to look at other

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options and we don't know what that will be so as a think tank we are

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looking at this over the next few weeks and coming up with

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recommendations for the Government and looking at how existing

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boundaries between the EU customs union and other states work in

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practice. For example between Switzerland and the EU border,

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Norway and Switzerland, and the UK and Canada. We will want is a

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country the freedom to do our own free trade deals, that seems to be

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quite high up there, and to change our external tariffs to the rest of

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the world. If that's the case, we do seem to be wanting our cake and

:19:09.:19:13.

eating it in the customs union. Talking to some people in London, it

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is quite clear we are leaving the essentials of the customs union, the

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tariff, so even if we can minimise controls at the border by having

:19:24.:19:27.

mutual recognition agreements, so we recognise each other's standards,

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but there will still have to be checks for things like rules of

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origin and tariffs if tariffs apply, which is a problem for the Irish

:19:36.:19:39.

because nobody has worked out how you can avoid having some sort of

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customs control on the border between Northern Ireland and the

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South once we are out of the customs union. I think it's important we

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don't look at this too much as one side has to win and one side has to

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lose scenario. We can find ways. My Broadview is what we get out of the

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negotiation will depend on politics more than economic reality. Economic

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reality is strong, there's a good case for a trade deal on the

:20:04.:20:20.

solution on the customs deal, but Britain will need to come up with a

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positive case for our relationship and keep making that case. If it

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turns out the Government thinks the bill is too high, that we can't

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really get the free trade deal done in time and it's left hanging in the

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wind, what are the chances, how I as things stand now that we end up

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crashing out? I'd say there's a 30% chance that we don't get the free

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trade agreement at the end of it that Mrs May is aiming for. The very

:20:39.:20:44.

hard crash is you don't even do an Article 50 divorce settlement from

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you go straight to World Trade Organisation rules. The less hard

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crash is doing the divorce settlement and transitional

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arrangements would require European Court of Justice arrangements. We

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will leave it there. Thank you, both.

:21:03.:21:03.

Donald Trump's flagship policy of extreme vetting of immigrants

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and a temporary travel ban for citizens of seven mainly-muslim

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countries was stopped in its tracks this weekend.

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On Friday a judge ruled the ban should be lifted and that it

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That prompted President Trump to fire off a series of tweets

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criticising what he says was a terrible decision

:21:19.:21:20.

by a so-called judge, as he ordered the State Department

:21:21.:21:23.

Now the federal appeals court has rejected his request to reinstate

:21:24.:21:31.

the ban until it hears the case in full.

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Well yesterday I spoke to Sebastian Gorka, Deputy Assistant

:21:43.:21:46.

I asked him if the confusion over the travel ban

:21:47.:21:50.

was a sign that the President's two-week-old administration

:21:51.:21:52.

There is no chaos, you really shouldn't believe the spin, the

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facts speak for themselves. 109 people on Saturday were mildly

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inconvenienced by having their entry into the United States delayed out

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of 325,000. So let's not get carried away with the left-wing media bias

:22:18.:22:26.

and spin. Hold on, 60,000 - 90,000 people with visas, their visas are

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no longer valid. That's another issue. You need to listen to what

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I'm saying. The people who entered on the day of the executive order

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being implemented worth 109 people out of 325. Whether people won't

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travelling to America were affected is another matter, so there is no

:22:48.:22:56.

chaos to comment on. Following Iran's latest missile tests,

:22:57.:23:01.

National Security adviser Flint said the US was "Putting Iran on notice",

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what does that mean? It means we have a new president and we are not

:23:08.:23:10.

going to facilitate the rise of one of the most dangerous nations in the

:23:11.:23:16.

world. We are jettisoning this naive and dangerous policy of the Obama

:23:17.:23:24.

Administration to try and make the Shi'ite dictatorial democracy some

:23:25.:23:27.

kind of counter balance to extremist Sunni groups in the region and that

:23:28.:23:32.

they cannot continue to behave in the way they have behaved for the

:23:33.:23:36.

last 30 years. It is a very simple message. So are there any

:23:37.:23:42.

multilateral alliances that Mr Trump would like to strengthen?

:23:43.:23:48.

Absolutely. If we are looking at the region, if you listen to what

:23:49.:23:51.

President Trump has said and specifically to also the speeches of

:23:52.:23:56.

general Flint, his national security adviser, we are incredibly vested in

:23:57.:24:01.

seeing our Sunni allies in the region come together in a real

:24:02.:24:08.

coalition. The so-called vaunted 66 nation coalition that was created

:24:09.:24:14.

under the Obama administration... There was no coalition. But we want

:24:15.:24:18.

to help our Sunni allies, especially the Egyptians, the Jordanians, come

:24:19.:24:26.

together in a real partnership to take the fight to ISIS and groups

:24:27.:24:32.

like Al-Qaeda. But there is not a formal multilateral alliance with

:24:33.:24:38.

these countries. Which of the existing, formal multilateral

:24:39.:24:42.

alliances does Mr Trump wants to strengthen? If you are specifically

:24:43.:24:46.

talking about Nato, it is clear that we are committed to Nato but we wish

:24:47.:24:51.

to see a more equitable burden sharing among the nations that are

:24:52.:24:54.

simply not spending enough on their own defence so the gentleman 's

:24:55.:24:59.

agreement of 2% of GDP has to be stuck to, unlike the, I think it's

:25:00.:25:03.

only Six Nations that reach the standard today out of almost 30. So

:25:04.:25:07.

he does want to strengthen Nato then? Absolutely, he believes Nato

:25:08.:25:19.

is the most successful military alliances. You mustn't believe the

:25:20.:25:25.

spin and hype. EU leaders now see the Trump administration as a threat

:25:26.:25:29.

up there with Russia, China, terrorism. What's your response to

:25:30.:25:35.

that? I have to laugh. The idea that the nation that came to the

:25:36.:25:41.

salvation of Europe twice in the 20th century hummer in World War I

:25:42.:25:48.

and World War II, was central to the defeat of the totalitarian... It is

:25:49.:25:59.

not even worth commenting on. Would it matter to the Trump

:26:00.:26:03.

administration if the European Union broke up? The United States is very

:26:04.:26:06.

interested in the best relations possible with all the nations of the

:26:07.:26:14.

EU am a whether the European union wishes to stay together or not is up

:26:15.:26:19.

to the nations of the European Union. I understand that but I was

:26:20.:26:25.

wondering what the US view would be. Until Mr Trump, EU foreign policy

:26:26.:26:29.

was quite consistent in wanting to see the EU survive, prosper and even

:26:30.:26:34.

become more integrated. Now that doesn't seem to be the case, so

:26:35.:26:38.

would it matter to the Trump administration if the EU broke up? I

:26:39.:26:43.

will say yet again, it is in the interests of the United States to

:26:44.:26:46.

have the best relations possible with our European allies, and

:26:47.:26:51.

whether that is in the formation of the EU or if the EU by itself

:26:52.:26:55.

suffers some kind of internal issues, that's up to the European

:26:56.:26:59.

nations and not something we will comment on. Listening to that

:27:00.:27:04.

answer, it would seem as if this particular president's preference is

:27:05.:27:09.

to deal with individual nation states rather than multilateral

:27:10.:27:14.

institutions. Is that fair? I don't think so. There's never been an

:27:15.:27:21.

unequivocal statement by that effect by the statement. Does he share the

:27:22.:27:25.

opinion of Stephen Bannon that the 21st century should see a return to

:27:26.:27:30.

nation states rather than growing existing multilateral ways? I think

:27:31.:27:36.

it is fair to say that we have problems with political elites that

:27:37.:27:39.

don't take the interests of the populations they represent into

:27:40.:27:44.

account. That's why Brexit happened. I think that's why Mr Trump became

:27:45.:27:50.

President Trump. This is the connected phenomena. You are

:27:51.:27:55.

obsessing about institutions, it is not about institutions, it's about

:27:56.:27:58.

the health of democracy and whether political elites do what is in the

:27:59.:28:03.

interests of the people they represent. Given the

:28:04.:28:06.

unpredictability of the new president, you never really know

:28:07.:28:09.

what he's going to do next, would it be wise for the British Prime

:28:10.:28:14.

Minister to hitch her wagon to his star? This is really churlish

:28:15.:28:21.

questioning. Come on, you don't know what he's going to do next, listen

:28:22.:28:24.

to what he says because he does what he's going to say. I know this may

:28:25.:28:30.

be shocking to some reporters, but look at his campaign promises, and

:28:31.:28:34.

the fact that in the last 15 days we have executed every single one that

:28:35.:28:40.

we could in the time permissible so there is nothing unpredictable about

:28:41.:28:45.

Donald Trump as president. OK then, if we do know what he's going to do

:28:46.:28:51.

next, what is he going to do next? Continue to make good on his

:28:52.:28:55.

election promises, to make America great again, to make the economy are

:28:56.:29:02.

flourishing economy, and most important of all from your

:29:03.:29:06.

perspective in the UK, to be the best friend possible to our friends

:29:07.:29:10.

and the worst enemy to our enemies. It is an old Marine Corps phrase and

:29:11.:29:16.

we tend to live by it. Thank you for your time, we will leave it there.

:29:17.:29:23.

Doctor Gorka, making it clear this administration won't spend political

:29:24.:29:30.

capital on trying to keep the European Union together, a watershed

:29:31.:29:32.

change in American foreign policy. Theresa May has made a big deal out

:29:33.:29:34.

of her commitment to help people on middle incomes who are "just

:29:35.:29:38.

about managing", and early this week we should get a good sense

:29:39.:29:41.

of what that means in practice - when plans to bring down the cost

:29:42.:29:44.

of housing and protect renters are published in the Government's

:29:45.:29:46.

new white paper. The paper is expected to introduce

:29:47.:29:48.

new rules on building Communities Secretary Sajid Javid

:29:49.:29:51.

has previously said politicians should not stand in the way

:29:52.:29:57.

of development, provided all options Also rumoured are new measures

:29:58.:29:59.

to speed up building the 1 million new homes the Government promised

:30:00.:30:04.

to build by 2020, including imposing five-year quotas

:30:05.:30:06.

on reluctant councils. Reports suggest there will be

:30:07.:30:10.

relaxation of building height restrictions,

:30:11.:30:12.

allowing home owners and developers to build to the height

:30:13.:30:14.

of the tallest building on the block without needing to seek

:30:15.:30:17.

planning permission. Other elements trialled include

:30:18.:30:23.

new measures to stop developers sitting on parcels of land

:30:24.:30:26.

without building homes, land banking, and moving railway

:30:27.:30:28.

station car parks Underground, The Government today said it

:30:29.:30:31.

will amend planning rules so more homes can be built specifically

:30:32.:30:39.

to be rented out through longer term tenancies, to provide more stability

:30:40.:30:42.

for young families, alongside its proposed ban

:30:43.:30:44.

on letting agent fees. And the Housing Minister,

:30:45.:30:51.

Gavin Barwell, joins me now. Welcome to the programme. Home

:30:52.:31:01.

ownership is now beyond the reach of most young people. You are now

:31:02.:31:04.

emphasising affordable homes for rent. Why have you given up on the

:31:05.:31:09.

Tory dream of a property owning democracy? We haven't given up on

:31:10.:31:12.

that. The decline on home ownership in this country started in 2004. So

:31:13.:31:17.

far we have stopped that decline, we haven't reversed it but we

:31:18.:31:20.

absolutely want to make sure that people who want to own and can do

:31:21.:31:26.

so. The Prime Minister was very clear a country that works for

:31:27.:31:29.

everyone. That means we have to have say something to say to those who

:31:30.:31:32.

want to rent as well as on. Home ownership of young people is 35%,

:31:33.:31:37.

used to be 60%. Are you telling me during the lifetime of this

:31:38.:31:42.

government that is going to rise? We want to reverse the decline. We have

:31:43.:31:46.

stabilised it. The decline started in 2004 under Labour. They weren't

:31:47.:31:50.

bothered about it. We have taken action and that has stop the

:31:51.:31:55.

decline... What about the rise? We have to make sure people work hard

:31:56.:31:59.

the right thing have the chance to own their home on home. We have

:32:00.:32:03.

helped people through help to buy, shared ownership, that is part of

:32:04.:32:07.

it, but we have to have something to say to those who want to rent. You

:32:08.:32:11.

say you want more rented homes so why did you introduce a 3%

:32:12.:32:17.

additional stamp duty levied to pay those investing in build to rent

:32:18.:32:21.

properties? That was basically to try and stop a lot of the

:32:22.:32:25.

speculation in the buy to let market. The Bank of England raised

:32:26.:32:28.

concerns about that. When you see the white paper, you will see there

:32:29.:32:33.

is a package of measures for Bill to rent, trying to get institutional

:32:34.:32:40.

investment for that, different to people going and buying a home on

:32:41.:32:44.

the private market and renting out. You are trying to get institutional

:32:45.:32:48.

money to comment, just as this government and subsequent ones

:32:49.:32:51.

before said it would get pension fund money to invest in

:32:52.:32:54.

infrastructure and it never happened. Why should this happen? Is

:32:55.:32:59.

already starting to happen. If you go around the country you can see

:33:00.:33:02.

some of these builder rent scheme is happening. There are changes in the

:33:03.:33:06.

White Paper... How much money from institutions is going into bill to

:33:07.:33:17.

rent modular hundreds of millions. I was at the stock exchange the other

:33:18.:33:20.

day celebrating the launch of one of our bombs designed to get this money

:33:21.:33:22.

on. There are schemes being... There is huge potential to expand it. We

:33:23.:33:25.

need more homes and we are too dependent on a small number of large

:33:26.:33:28.

developers. -- to launch one of our bonds. You talk about affordable

:33:29.:33:35.

renting, what is affordable? Defined as something that is at least 20%

:33:36.:33:41.

below the market price. It will vary around the country. Let me put it

:33:42.:33:45.

another way. The average couple renting now have to spend 50% of

:33:46.:33:50.

their income on rent. Is that affordable? That is exactly what

:33:51.:33:53.

we're trying to do something about. Whether you're trying to buy or

:33:54.:33:56.

rent, housing in this country has become less and less affordable

:33:57.:34:00.

because the 30-40 years governments haven't built in times. This white

:34:01.:34:04.

Paper is trying to do something about that. You have been in power

:34:05.:34:08.

six, almost seven years. That's right. Why are ownership of new

:34:09.:34:16.

homes to 24 year low? It was a low figure because it's a new five-year

:34:17.:34:19.

programme. That is not a great excuse. It's not an excuse at all.

:34:20.:34:24.

The way these things work, you have a five-year programme and in the

:34:25.:34:27.

last year you have a record number of delivery and when you start a new

:34:28.:34:30.

programme, a lower level. If you look at the average over six years,

:34:31.:34:34.

this government has built more affordable housing than the previous

:34:35.:34:40.

one. Stiletto 24 year loss, that is an embarrassment. Yes. We have the

:34:41.:34:46.

figures, last year was 32,000, the year before 60 6000. You get this

:34:47.:34:49.

cliff edge effect. It is embarrassing and we want to stop it

:34:50.:34:55.

happening in the future. You want to give tenants more secure and longer

:34:56.:34:59.

leases which rent rises are predictable in advance. Ed Miliband

:35:00.:35:05.

promoted three-year tenancies in the 2015 general election campaign and

:35:06.:35:09.

George Osborne said it was totally economically illiterate. What's

:35:10.:35:15.

changed? You are merging control of the rents people in charge, which

:35:16.:35:19.

we're not imposing. We want longer term tenancies. Most people have

:35:20.:35:23.

six-month tenancies... Within that there would be a control on how much

:35:24.:35:28.

the rent could go up? Right? It would be set for the period of the

:35:29.:35:32.

tenancies. That's what I just said, that's what Ed Miliband proposed. Ed

:35:33.:35:37.

Miliband proposed regulating it for the whole sector. One of the reasons

:35:38.:35:42.

institutional investment is so attractive, if you had a spare home

:35:43.:35:46.

and you want to rent out, you might need it any year, so you give it a

:35:47.:35:51.

short tenancy. If you have a block, they are interested in a long-term

:35:52.:35:55.

return and give families more security. You have set a target,

:35:56.:36:02.

your government, to build in the life of this parliament 1 million

:36:03.:36:05.

new homes in England by 2020. You're not going to make that? I think we

:36:06.:36:13.

are. If you look at 2015-16 we had 190,000 additional homes of this

:36:14.:36:16.

country. Just below the level we need to achieve. Over five...

:36:17.:36:24.

2015-16. You were probably looking at the new homes built. Talking

:36:25.:36:30.

about completions in England. That is not the best measure, with

:36:31.:36:34.

respect. You said you will complete 1 million homes by 2020 so what is

:36:35.:36:39.

wrong with it? We use a national statistic which looks at new homes

:36:40.:36:43.

built and conversions and changes of use minus demolitions. The total

:36:44.:36:46.

change of the housing stock over that year. On that basis I have the

:36:47.:36:52.

figures here. I have the figures. You looking I just completed. 1

:36:53.:36:56.

million new homes, the average rate of those built in the last three

:36:57.:37:02.

quarters was 30 6000. You have 14 more quarters to get to the 1

:37:03.:37:06.

million. You have to raise that to 50 6000. I put it to you, you won't

:37:07.:37:10.

do it. You're not looking at the full picture of new housing in this

:37:11.:37:15.

country. You're looking at brand-new homes and not including conversions

:37:16.:37:19.

or changes of use are not taking off, which we should, demolitions.

:37:20.:37:24.

If you look at the National statistic net additions, in 2015-16,

:37:25.:37:30.

100 and 90,000 new homes. We are behind schedule. -- 190,000. I am

:37:31.:37:35.

confident with the measures in the White Paper we can achieve that. It

:37:36.:37:39.

is not just about the national total, we need to build these homes

:37:40.:37:43.

are the right places. Will the green belt remain sacrosanct after the

:37:44.:37:49.

white paper? Not proposing to change the existing protections that there

:37:50.:37:53.

for green belts. What planning policy says is councils can remove

:37:54.:37:57.

land from green belts but only in exceptional circumstances and should

:37:58.:38:00.

look at at all the circumstances before doing that. No change? No. We

:38:01.:38:06.

have a manifesto commitment. You still think you will get 1 million

:38:07.:38:12.

homes? The green belt is only 15%. This idea we can only fix our broken

:38:13.:38:16.

housing market by taking huge swathes of land out of the green

:38:17.:38:19.

belt is not true. We will leave it there, thank you for joining us,

:38:20.:38:22.

Gavin Barwell. It is coming up to 11.40.

:38:23.:38:24.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:25.:38:27.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead...

:38:28.:38:35.

You might laugh at this old advert for Cadbury's Smash,

:38:36.:38:46.

but could robotic innovations save Lincolnshire's agricultural

:38:47.:38:51.

businesses, who say they are facing a Brexit skills shortage.

:38:52.:38:54.

I can no more vote for this than I can vote against my conscience.

:38:55.:38:57.

I can no more vote for this because it's against my values.

:38:58.:39:00.

I can no more vote for this than I can vote against my own DNA.

:39:01.:39:04.

Rebel, resign and abstain and rebel resign and,

:39:05.:39:08.

resign and reshuffle, we look at our MPs' Brexit vote

:39:09.:39:11.

We are joined today by Rosie Winterton, Labour MP

:39:12.:39:19.

for Doncaster Central and by Jason McCartney,

:39:20.:39:22.

So, how would you both sum up this political week?

:39:23.:39:33.

I think one of the most important debates that many of us will have

:39:34.:39:37.

How would you sum up the week, Jason McCartney?

:39:38.:39:42.

I would echo that and I made a point of staying in the chamber

:39:43.:39:46.

Really, really long day but very important and just really listened

:39:47.:39:50.

Some thoughtful and emotional contributions from across the house.

:39:51.:39:59.

We will hear some of those a little bit later but there are claims today

:40:00.:40:03.

the food and farming industry in our area is facing

:40:04.:40:05.

Almost half of businesses say they can't find enough staff.

:40:06.:40:09.

Many are blaming a mass exodus of migrant workers

:40:10.:40:12.

Yes, so, our new caravan area is going to come out

:40:13.:40:20.

the back here and basically we are going to have

:40:21.:40:22.

brand-new accommodation, very nice communal area and also

:40:23.:40:25.

It sounds like a luxury holiday park but this will be the on-farm

:40:26.:40:32.

It's got to be good to entice the dwindling numbers willing

:40:33.:40:40.

to cultivate crops and keep food on our tables.

:40:41.:40:43.

Some farmers are going to new lengths to keep workers happy.

:40:44.:40:47.

Without migrant workers, our business would not operate,

:40:48.:40:50.

The industry we are in and the hours and the conditions

:40:51.:40:57.

that we working outside, you know, we have to

:40:58.:41:00.

Mike supplies sprouts to most UK supermarkets.

:41:01.:41:07.

Before Christmas it was touch and go whether he would meet orders

:41:08.:41:10.

Madeleina is perfectly happy here but says many of her friends

:41:11.:41:16.

who have returned season after season will soon

:41:17.:41:19.

One of the people, they are going home.

:41:20.:41:24.

A lot of them they are staying here, they are working, keeping some money

:41:25.:41:28.

and after that they are going back to Romania to do something with it.

:41:29.:41:33.

It is claimed that 47% of UK labour agencies are struggling to find

:41:34.:41:39.

And farmers say they recruited 10% less staff than they actually needed

:41:40.:41:44.

Neil Vickers has also noticed an exit post-Brexit.

:41:45.:41:53.

Homeless migrants use his church as an emergency night shelter

:41:54.:41:56.

when the temperatures fall below zero.

:41:57.:42:00.

But this winter there has been 50% less needing a bed.

:42:01.:42:04.

We have heard that people are going home because the exchange rate

:42:05.:42:10.

is not good and so they are sending money home which is not

:42:11.:42:13.

as much as they could send if they were working

:42:14.:42:16.

We have heard they have gone because of threats

:42:17.:42:20.

It is the reason why academics at the University of Lincoln have

:42:21.:42:26.

been awarded over ?2 million of government funding to develop

:42:27.:42:29.

The aim, to pick the crops that people don't want to,

:42:30.:42:38.

which is fast becoming a global problem.

:42:39.:42:40.

This is not just a UK problem, this is a worldwide problem,

:42:41.:42:43.

so we start in California, they have had a national living wage

:42:44.:42:46.

imposed in California, which is driving labour costs up.

:42:47.:42:50.

The second thing with the new president, Donald Trump,

:42:51.:42:53.

there are concerns about the availability of their labour

:42:54.:42:56.

force, which is currently based on Mexican migrant labour

:42:57.:42:58.

in California, so exact parallel to the UK in California.

:42:59.:43:04.

But James Truscott says robotics is not enough.

:43:05.:43:08.

His company handles over 350,000 tonnes of potatoes a year.

:43:09.:43:13.

He says politicians need to introduce a permit scheme so that

:43:14.:43:17.

businesses in food and farming can still deploy migrant workers no

:43:18.:43:21.

I think if you are a farmer you have always needed seasonal people

:43:22.:43:30.

to come onto your land and get the harvest in.

:43:31.:43:33.

I suspect if they don't have that then they might have to either grow

:43:34.:43:36.

different things that don't require people, so, you know,

:43:37.:43:40.

it is very difficult to get a strawberry off strawberry plant

:43:41.:43:42.

It has to be people to do that job so if those people aren't there then

:43:43.:43:49.

For now, Madeleina says she is happy, but farmers say

:43:50.:43:54.

as the country appears set to curb migration, they are being

:43:55.:43:58.

forced to court it just to survive in business.

:43:59.:44:03.

The good news is that MPs haven't been replaced by robots just yet,

:44:04.:44:12.

so let me ask you, Rosie Winterton, how seriously should we take these

:44:13.:44:16.

I think we should take them very seriously and I think the film that

:44:17.:44:20.

you have shown goes to the heart of the debate we had

:44:21.:44:27.

During the debate, I raised the issue, first of all,

:44:28.:44:30.

of the fact that we need a proper plan for the Yorkshire and Humber

:44:31.:44:40.

area when it comes to Brexit as David Davis has talked a lot

:44:41.:44:43.

about bringing in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, saying what is it

:44:44.:44:46.

that is going to happen in your nations because of Brexit,

:44:47.:44:49.

but I want the regions to be able to have a say as well.

:44:50.:44:52.

I want Yorkshire and the Humber to be able to look at exactly those

:44:53.:44:55.

issues around the needs of our industries like

:44:56.:44:57.

What requirements will it have post-Brexit in terms of migrant

:44:58.:45:02.

workers, but also what should we be doing in the future to look

:45:03.:45:08.

at the skills and education to fill some of the gaps

:45:09.:45:11.

that there are undoubtedly going to be?

:45:12.:45:13.

Unless we have a proper analysis of what will happen in our region

:45:14.:45:19.

then we won't be able to address those problems.

:45:20.:45:27.

At the last count we had got more than 1.5 million people

:45:28.:45:31.

Why are some bosses complaining about a shortage of workers?

:45:32.:45:35.

I think your film actually hit the nail on the head there.

:45:36.:45:38.

Your company bosses were saying people want better working

:45:39.:45:40.

conditions and they want better pay and surely they are good things,

:45:41.:45:43.

so they are now going to have to tackle those issues to be able

:45:44.:45:46.

to get the workforce that they need and yes I have been talking

:45:47.:45:49.

on the train home last night to MPs from Peterborough and from

:45:50.:45:52.

Lincolnshire and asking about this, how do people in their area feel

:45:53.:45:55.

when maybe there is unemployment but there are people

:45:56.:45:58.

How do we get people doing jobs and getting

:45:59.:46:02.

the national living wage, to get a fair wage,

:46:03.:46:05.

and good working conditions, so they can fulfil the roles

:46:06.:46:08.

that we need, not just an agricultural industry...

:46:09.:46:10.

Can I just say, I think Jason is absolutely right,

:46:11.:46:15.

people want to have a say, they want to feel that their MPs

:46:16.:46:20.

are actually feeding into the debate that I think that the government

:46:21.:46:23.

is going to have to look at the way that the whole labour market

:46:24.:46:27.

operates because we are seeing with the huge explosion

:46:28.:46:42.

like zero hours' contracts we have got a very,

:46:43.:46:44.

People who frankly and I believe that sometimes other European

:46:45.:46:47.

countries are being exploited but we need to tackle the whole

:46:48.:46:50.

issue of how the labour market works and Jason is right to say that

:46:51.:46:54.

sometimes big companies need to take a look at how they are operating

:46:55.:46:57.

because we need further training, we need skills but we need to make

:46:58.:47:00.

sure that people are working in a fair and equitable workplace.

:47:01.:47:04.

But when you talk to many job-seekers, they will say

:47:05.:47:07.

they can't get jobs because the bosses want migrant

:47:08.:47:10.

workers who are cheaper and will, let us face it, work under worse

:47:11.:47:14.

conditions than British-born workers.

:47:15.:47:18.

And that is creating an unsustainable economy

:47:19.:47:20.

and I would agree with Rosie here, I saw documentaries on other

:47:21.:47:23.

channels this week about workers in warehouses with poor hours,

:47:24.:47:26.

That kind of sort of work in our economy is unsustainable

:47:27.:47:34.

and it is unacceptable and these issues now have needed to be

:47:35.:47:37.

It goes back to governments of all colours and maybe now we can

:47:38.:47:43.

address these and Brexit is all about getting

:47:44.:47:45.

control of these things, having a workforce that bosses

:47:46.:47:48.

and the government and us as MPs have a say about and allowing people

:47:49.:47:52.

a decent standard of living, decent working conditions, and these

:47:53.:47:54.

Yes, but you both represent parties who have led governments

:47:55.:48:01.

where there has been a huge increase in mass migration.

:48:02.:48:04.

This huge influx of unskilled labour has come into this

:48:05.:48:06.

country over the past ten, 15 years.

:48:07.:48:08.

So, you are trying to shut the stable after the horse has bolted.

:48:09.:48:12.

No, no, that's not true because actually, what we know

:48:13.:48:17.

and I go back to why it is important that we have a plan for the region

:48:18.:48:21.

and an analysis, we know that we are an ageing population.

:48:22.:48:24.

We know that we are going to need, and I said this in the Commons last

:48:25.:48:28.

week, both skilled and unskilled workers from the European Union

:48:29.:48:34.

to be able to come in and do the sort of work.

:48:35.:48:37.

Why do we need that when we have got more than a million unemployed?

:48:38.:48:40.

Because we are not going to, you ask businesses about their needs

:48:41.:48:43.

for the future and they will all say that they need people to work

:48:44.:48:49.

at all levels, simply because even with the 1.5 million unemployed,

:48:50.:48:53.

you are not going to be able to fill all the gaps

:48:54.:48:56.

that there are and we need to be honest about that.

:48:57.:48:59.

We will come back to this debate in our next discussion because one

:49:00.:49:02.

of the region's newest MPs, Sleaford's Caroline Johnson,

:49:03.:49:05.

You can say she summed up everything when she said,

:49:06.:49:09.

"We asked the people and the people said out we must go."

:49:10.:49:12.

So here are some highlights from that epic debate on Brexit.

:49:13.:49:16.

The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day.

:49:17.:49:19.

European Union Notification of Withdrawal Bill.

:49:20.:49:22.

MUSIC: 'Dance of The Knights' by Prokofiev.

:49:23.:49:31.

I believe that the referendum is not advice but an instruction to us.

:49:32.:49:40.

We asked the people and the people said out, so out we must go.

:49:41.:49:43.

When we went into the European Union of the common market in the 1970s,

:49:44.:49:48.

we also had public consent, popular consent expressed

:49:49.:49:52.

And it would be folly in the extreme for the other place with maybe

:49:53.:50:09.

politicians in the other place dominated by parties

:50:10.:50:12.

who have been diminished in the elected House to try and go

:50:13.:50:17.

against the will of this House and that will indeed I think be

:50:18.:50:21.

a suicide bid by the other place if they try and amend and send back

:50:22.:50:25.

And people who are not racist, not racist, still have genuine

:50:26.:50:36.

concerns about the impact on their public services

:50:37.:50:39.

and their jobs, pay and conditions from that unrestricted immigration.

:50:40.:50:45.

It could be viewed that we have shut ourselves off, however the important

:50:46.:50:48.

thing is that now the decision has been made that we do everything

:50:49.:50:51.

in our power to prove that that is not the case.

:50:52.:50:54.

So however painful this is now, we are leaving the European Union.

:50:55.:51:09.

When I was elected to Parliament and took my oath of allegiance,

:51:10.:51:18.

I changed the words to say that I would put my constituents first.

:51:19.:51:21.

York Central voted overwhelmingly to remain in the European Union.

:51:22.:51:27.

History has its eyes on us today, so here is my answer.

:51:28.:51:34.

I can know more about for this than I can vote against my conscience.

:51:35.:51:37.

I can no more vote for this because it's against my values.

:51:38.:51:40.

I can no more vote for this than I can vote against my own DNA.

:51:41.:51:44.

Jason McCartney, can you understand why someone like Rachel Maskell,

:51:45.:51:54.

the York Central Labour MP, voted in the way her constituents

:51:55.:51:59.

they wanted to remain in the European Union,

:52:00.:52:03.

I can always understand why different members of Parliament

:52:04.:52:08.

want to reflect local wishes and listen to their constituents

:52:09.:52:12.

but we have to remember what this vote was all about.

:52:13.:52:14.

You know, we all voted to have the referendum,

:52:15.:52:17.

to let the people decide and then it was to enact the people's will.

:52:18.:52:20.

I actually remember on the night itself I was at New College in

:52:21.:52:24.

Huddersfield when it was the night of the referendum and many of us

:52:25.:52:27.

actually thought the country was going to go to Remain

:52:28.:52:29.

and I was thinking about what I would say to my constituents,

:52:30.:52:32.

I voted Leave, but I was getting ready in my head to say

:52:33.:52:35.

we have had the vote, we are staying and it is a question

:52:36.:52:38.

of all coming together and moving on.

:52:39.:52:40.

We actually voted to Leave and now it is about taking that through.

:52:41.:52:43.

But Rosie is absolutely right, we have got a White Paper now,

:52:44.:52:46.

we are going to have a lot of debates and votes

:52:47.:52:49.

and it is about getting the best deal not only

:52:50.:52:51.

for the United Kingdom, but for us as Yorkshire MPs,

:52:52.:52:54.

for the North of England, but also take people with us,

:52:55.:52:57.

you know, I was asked about it at a school this morning by some

:52:58.:53:00.

of the 10-year-olds and we need to talk and communicate and reassure

:53:01.:53:03.

people that we are going to get a good deal for the United Kingdom

:53:04.:53:07.

and that we are leaving the European Union and keep

:53:08.:53:10.

communicating, working together on this.

:53:11.:53:13.

Let me ask you, Rosie Winterton, as a former Labour Chief Whip,

:53:14.:53:16.

who was in charge of party discipline, do you accept the whole

:53:17.:53:19.

Article 50 debate was an absolute shambles for your party?

:53:20.:53:22.

No, look, I think what your film showed, there were very,

:53:23.:53:26.

very strong feelings in the house last week, very emotional speeches

:53:27.:53:30.

We in the Labour Party, yes, there are different views,

:53:31.:53:38.

I absolutely understand that, but first of all it was right

:53:39.:53:41.

I think it was very important that the party

:53:42.:53:46.

through the Shadow Cabinet and the leadership had a position

:53:47.:53:51.

and the Shadow Cabinet members kept to that or resigned if they couldn't

:53:52.:53:55.

feel that they could support it but I don't think any party has got

:53:56.:53:58.

a monopoly on there being strong views on both sides

:53:59.:54:02.

But what also showed is how important it is for Parliament

:54:03.:54:08.

to remain involved in the process because it was ludicrous

:54:09.:54:12.

of the government to try to prevent Parliament having a say.

:54:13.:54:18.

Mary Cray, the Labour MP for Wakefield, two thirds

:54:19.:54:23.

of her constituency voted to Leave the EU.

:54:24.:54:25.

Is she vulnerable at the next election?

:54:26.:54:31.

I think Mary did what she felt was absolutely right

:54:32.:54:34.

and people, you know, people will respect

:54:35.:54:36.

So you are saying two thirds of voters in Wakefield will respect

:54:37.:54:42.

I think a speech like Mary's, you could see that it

:54:43.:54:46.

I think the public will watch that and say well, some of us might

:54:47.:54:52.

have a different view, but however she made her feelings

:54:53.:54:56.

very clear and she said this is what I believe is the best

:54:57.:55:00.

But I think this is an issue where people do understand

:55:01.:55:07.

that the country itself is split about Brexit.

:55:08.:55:13.

Well, all parties, all parties will have their difficulties over this.

:55:14.:55:19.

I think we're going to see some lively debates

:55:20.:55:22.

in the Conservative Party over the next week.

:55:23.:55:25.

The Liberal Democrats have had some MPs who...

:55:26.:55:28.

What I would like to know, I have sometimes voted

:55:29.:55:32.

against my party on issues like tuition fees, you are a former

:55:33.:55:36.

Chief Whip, what do you think about the Labour whips that voted

:55:37.:55:40.

against the three line whip, should they keep their jobs?

:55:41.:55:42.

Well, as I say, I think that first of all...

:55:43.:55:45.

It was absolutely right, Jeremy and the Shadow Cabinet

:55:46.:55:52.

imposed a three line whip and said this is the position of the party.

:55:53.:55:55.

They have made it very clear that the Shadow Cabinet

:55:56.:55:57.

They need to then decide in view of the debates, in view of...

:55:58.:56:06.

Would you have sacked them if they were your wits?

:56:07.:56:08.

I can't prejudge, you know, as an ex-chief whip.

:56:09.:56:10.

How would you have dealt with Diane Abbott, who missed

:56:11.:56:13.

Diane Abbott was ill, so, you know, you can't say well,

:56:14.:56:19.

It is absolutely right that there was a three line whip,

:56:20.:56:25.

that the party had a clear vision, that the Shadow Cabinet

:56:26.:56:27.

How you deal with other people is something for the Chief Whip

:56:28.:56:32.

and the leader to look at but I also think it is right, you know, leave

:56:33.:56:36.

Let us get on with having a very, very important debate

:56:37.:56:40.

because I also think, I don't do the public particularly

:56:41.:56:46.

because I also think, I don't think the

:56:47.:56:48.

like at the moment for our parties to be saying well,

:56:49.:56:57.

you know, your party is more divided than mine.

:56:58.:56:59.

I think they want us to be saying what's going to be the best...

:57:00.:57:02.

I think they know which party is more divided.

:57:03.:57:04.

What is going to be best for the country.

:57:05.:57:07.

You have opened a real can of worms there.

:57:08.:57:09.

But anyway, we move on to get some more of the week's

:57:10.:57:13.

Here is Trudy Scanlon with our round-up in 60 seconds.

:57:14.:57:16.

Boston, the so-called Brexit capital of the country,

:57:17.:57:18.

was the destination for the Brexit committee this week.

:57:19.:57:20.

The group, led by MP Hilary Benn, is tasked with monitoring

:57:21.:57:23.

Ukip's Jane Collins was due to visit the High Court in London to hear

:57:24.:57:29.

what damages she must pay after libelling three rather MPs.

:57:30.:57:35.

what damages she must pay after libelling three MPs.

:57:36.:57:37.

The Yorkshire and Humber MEP said she was too busy to attend.

:57:38.:57:40.

She falsely claimed that Sir Kevin Barron, John Healey

:57:41.:57:42.

and Sarah Champion knew about child abuse in Rotherham but did nothing.

:57:43.:57:45.

The damages will be announced tomorrow.

:57:46.:57:46.

Hundreds of people across the region protested at the state visit

:57:47.:57:49.

More than 1 million people have signed a petition,

:57:50.:57:53.

started by a Leeds solicitor, which means the visit

:57:54.:57:55.

And from Trump protests to dancing triumph, West Yorkshire MP

:57:56.:58:02.

Yvette Cooper joined her husband Ed Balls for a lesson

:58:03.:58:05.

in the quickstep, Gangnam-style, when his Strictly Come Dancing tour

:58:06.:58:08.

Have you ever danced with Ed Balls at any Labour Party events?

:58:09.:58:22.

No I haven't but it always makes you smile, doesn't it?

:58:23.:58:25.

He has actually got a very good sense of humour.

:58:26.:58:28.

Yeah, I am so glad that they are going round the country doing that.

:58:29.:58:32.

And look, you know, there they were in a classroom

:58:33.:58:34.

You will be getting free tickets at this rate!

:58:35.:58:38.

OK, look, we don't have time to go into every aspect

:58:39.:58:40.

of Donald Trump's foreign policy, this either question this week,

:58:41.:58:43.

of Donald Trump's foreign policy, the question this week,

:58:44.:58:46.

should the state visit go-ahead, Jason McCartney?

:58:47.:58:47.

I was in Washington, DC with the Nato committee last

:58:48.:58:50.

weekend when it was the inauguration and look, I would not

:58:51.:58:52.

I think his personal qualities are appalling,

:58:53.:58:56.

his attitude to women, but he has been elected

:58:57.:58:59.

the president of the United States and we can either shout

:59:00.:59:01.

from the sidelines or we can engage and try and persuade and cajole

:59:02.:59:04.

and encourage him to do the right things.

:59:05.:59:08.

I am pleased we have got the commitment on Nato and Estonia

:59:09.:59:11.

and Lithuania have already thanked the Prime Minister for that as well.

:59:12.:59:14.

It is incredibly difficult, isn't it, because we have had some

:59:15.:59:17.

foreign leaders before who have come to the United Kingdom from China

:59:18.:59:21.

and from the Middle East as well you have human rights issues

:59:22.:59:23.

I haven't been in government but I know Rosie has as well,

:59:24.:59:29.

you know, Tony Blair having the Chinese leader here.

:59:30.:59:32.

I am glad I don't have to make the decision.

:59:33.:59:35.

I have to be honest, I want us to engage but I do feel

:59:36.:59:39.

incredibly uncomfortable about Mr Trump as an individual may

:59:40.:59:43.

I think people are absolutely shocked by what he did.

:59:44.:59:49.

I think it's pretty awful that he didn't warn Theresa May that

:59:50.:59:52.

something was coming along very quickly, which would affect

:59:53.:59:57.

I think there should be a fair amount of distance

:59:58.:00:03.

between what happened and any planned visit.

:00:04.:00:06.

You have got a large number of Muslim constituents

:00:07.:00:10.

Would you boycott any public events with Donald Trump?

:00:11.:00:14.

I am very proud represent my Kashmiri, Pakistani community.

:00:15.:00:17.

You look across Europe, you know, what about the Burqa ban in France?

:00:18.:00:21.

Germany have announced they are going to attack suspects,

:00:22.:00:24.

not people who have been found guilty, attacking suspects as well.

:00:25.:00:35.

If we are going to say no to Trump, I'll be going to say no

:00:36.:00:40.

And I tell you what, you know, there are some people, you know,

:00:41.:00:44.

in the Labour Party, not Rosie thank goodness,

:00:45.:00:46.

I will take no lectures from anyone in the Labour Party

:00:47.:00:50.

about who we engage with if the Labour Party

:00:51.:00:52.

have a leader who engaged with the IRA, standing

:00:53.:00:54.

I think it's important we engage with the President

:00:55.:00:58.

Well, look, I mean I think that people were absolutely shocked

:00:59.:01:02.

by what Donald Trump said and did and I think they felt

:01:03.:01:05.

That is rather different from things like getting

:01:06.:01:09.

the Good Friday Agreement put in place.

:01:10.:01:13.

A special relationship, we expect better and that was

:01:14.:01:16.

20th of February Parliament will debate Mr Trump.

:01:17.:01:23.

I'm sure we will hear from you both then.

:01:24.:01:25.

Thank you both for your time today, Rosie Winterton and Jason McCartney.

:01:26.:01:28.

And as always, I shall hand you now back to Andrew Neil in London.

:01:29.:01:31.

expansion, but thank you to both of you for being here. Back to you,

:01:32.:01:34.

Andrew. Will the Government's plan

:01:35.:01:39.

to boost house-building Could a handful of Conservative

:01:40.:01:43.

MPs cause problems for And what is President

:01:44.:01:46.

Trump going to do next? You have been following the genesis

:01:47.:02:05.

of this housing white paper. What do you make of it? I think it will be

:02:06.:02:09.

quite spectacular, pretty radical stuff. We heard bits about beating

:02:10.:02:16.

up on developers. I understand it will be a whack, walk, covering

:02:17.:02:19.

every single problem with housing supply and trying to solve it. Which

:02:20.:02:25.

means bad news if you are a huge fan of the green belt, because they will

:02:26.:02:28.

go round that the other way by forcing large quotas on councils are

:02:29.:02:31.

making it down to councils where they build. If you fill up your

:02:32.:02:37.

brown space in towns they will have to trigger the exceptional

:02:38.:02:40.

circumstances bit of the bill to beat on green belts. Beating up

:02:41.:02:44.

developers, opening up the market for renters across the board. And

:02:45.:02:49.

Theresa May, one of the most defining thing she could do on the

:02:50.:02:53.

domestic agenda. I am not as excited as Tom about this. I look back to

:02:54.:02:59.

2004, do you remember the Kate Barker report? Successive

:03:00.:03:04.

governments, successive prime ministers have been promising to

:03:05.:03:11.

address the housing shortage. In 2004 Kate Barker recommended

:03:12.:03:14.

hundreds of thousands new homes. Gordon Brown talked about 3 million

:03:15.:03:20.

new homes by 2020 in 2007. It never happens. The reason is at the end of

:03:21.:03:25.

the day this is local politics, local councillors need to keep their

:03:26.:03:27.

seats and they won't keep their seats if there are hugely

:03:28.:03:29.

controversial developments locally that they support. Yes, the

:03:30.:03:35.

government can and are proposing to overrule councils that don't back

:03:36.:03:40.

local developments, but they may find themselves completely inundated

:03:41.:03:43.

with those cases. I think that is the whole point of it, to take on

:03:44.:03:48.

those NIMBY often Tory councils and force them to build. I can't think

:03:49.:03:57.

of a better defining issue for Theresa May than sticking one in the

:03:58.:04:01.

eye of some quite well off half Tory countryside councils. The government

:04:02.:04:07.

gives councils a quota of homes they have to fill, if they don't have to

:04:08.:04:11.

fill that all run out overland to fill the quota, the government then

:04:12.:04:15.

comes in and tells them they have to built on the green belt? How is that

:04:16.:04:19.

going to work? At the moment the green belt is absolutely sacrosanct

:04:20.:04:22.

in British politics. They'll have to do some work on educating people on

:04:23.:04:29.

what green belts means. Potato farms, golf courses... At the moment

:04:30.:04:34.

the idea people have of the green belt being verdant fields needs to

:04:35.:04:38.

be dismantled. You are right. I agree with Tom, 11 million people in

:04:39.:04:43.

the private rental sector in the UK. In the last election more voted

:04:44.:04:46.

Labour than conservative. This is an area where Theresa May would look to

:04:47.:04:50.

expand her vote. The problem has always been, the same problem we

:04:51.:04:54.

have with pension policy and why pensioners have done better than

:04:55.:04:59.

working families in recent years. They are older and they vote more

:05:00.:05:04.

and anything to the detriment of older people. I wonder how they will

:05:05.:05:11.

get private money to come in on anything like this go they would

:05:12.:05:15.

need to have a huge expansion? There is a huge amount of speculation and

:05:16.:05:20.

one of the thing that locks up the system as you have people buying

:05:21.:05:23.

land, taking out a stake of land in the hope that one point it may at

:05:24.:05:28.

some point free up. At the end of the day, unless you have councils

:05:29.:05:32.

far more willing to quickly fast track these applications, which they

:05:33.:05:36.

won't for the reason I said before, it's a very long-term investment. Ed

:05:37.:05:41.

Miliband proposed three-year leases in which the rent could only go up

:05:42.:05:46.

by an agreed formula, probably the three years to give the young

:05:47.:05:51.

families a certain stability over that period. He had a use it or lose

:05:52.:05:56.

it rules for planning development, if you don't use it you lose the

:05:57.:06:00.

planning rights. Somebody else gets it. The Tories disparaged that at

:06:01.:06:04.

the time. This is at the centre of their policy now.

:06:05.:06:10.

This is probably item number four of Ed Miliband's policy book Theresa

:06:11.:06:13.

May has wholesale pinched in the last six months or so. Why not? I

:06:14.:06:18.

think if you look at the change in mood across housing and planning

:06:19.:06:22.

over the last 5-6 years, it used to be an issue very much of green belt

:06:23.:06:27.

versus London planners. Now you have grandparents living in houses in the

:06:28.:06:30.

countryside, knowing their grandchildren can't get on the

:06:31.:06:33.

housing ladder any longer. Maybe a bit more intervention in the market,

:06:34.:06:39.

tougher on renting conditions, maybe that is exactly what the country

:06:40.:06:42.

needs. Will they meet the 1 million target? It would be a defiance of

:06:43.:06:48.

every political thing that has happened in the last ten years. I

:06:49.:06:53.

think Tom is right, if there is only one difference between Theresa May

:06:54.:06:56.

and David Cameron it's the willingness of the state to

:06:57.:07:01.

intervene. When Ed Miliband said that he was seen as communism, but

:07:02.:07:06.

Theresa May can get away with it. How serious is this talk of a couple

:07:07.:07:13.

of dozen Tories who were very loyal over voting for the principle of

:07:14.:07:19.

Article 50 but may now be tempted to vote for some amendments to Article

:07:20.:07:22.

50 legislation that they would find quite attractive? I think that

:07:23.:07:26.

threat has certainly been taken seriously by levers. I spoke to the

:07:27.:07:32.

campaign group Leaves Means Leave last night. The figure they

:07:33.:07:37.

mentioned was up to 20 remaining Tories. That sounds a lot to me but

:07:38.:07:39.

that is what they are concerned about and those Tories would come

:07:40.:07:45.

together with Labour and the SNP to vote for that amendment. Although

:07:46.:07:49.

that amendment sounds rather nice and democratic, actually in the eyes

:07:50.:07:54.

of many levers that is a wrecking amendment. Because what you are

:07:55.:07:58.

doing is giving Parliament a sort of veto over whatever deal Theresa May

:07:59.:08:02.

brings back. What they want is the vote to be before that deal is

:08:03.:08:06.

finalised. It isn't necessarily the case that if Parliament decided they

:08:07.:08:10.

didn't like that deal we would just go to WTO, we would fall out of the

:08:11.:08:14.

European Union. There are mixed views as to whether we might remain

:08:15.:08:21.

in and things could be extended. My understanding is the people making

:08:22.:08:25.

the amendments, they won any deal that is done to be brought to

:08:26.:08:29.

Parliament in time, so that if Parliament fancies it it's done, but

:08:30.:08:35.

if it does and it doesn't just mean go to WTO rules. There will be time

:08:36.:08:39.

to go back, renegotiate or think again? The question is where it puts

:08:40.:08:44.

Britain's negotiating hand. Nine of the options... Once we trigger

:08:45.:08:52.

Article 50 the two negotiation begins on the power switches to

:08:53.:08:55.

Europe. They can run out the clock and it will be worse for us than

:08:56.:08:58.

them. I don't think either option is particularly appealing. I think what

:08:59.:09:03.

seems like a rather Serena week for Article 50 this week isn't going to

:09:04.:09:06.

be reflective of what will happen next. The way the government's

:09:07.:09:11.

position is at the moment, if at the end the only choice Parliament has

:09:12.:09:15.

is to vote for the deal or crash out on WTO rules, then even the

:09:16.:09:18.

remainder is going to vote for the deal even if they don't like it,

:09:19.:09:23.

because they would regard crashing out as the worst of all possible

:09:24.:09:29.

results. Possibly. It will be a great game of bluff if Theresa May

:09:30.:09:33.

fights off any of these amendments on Wednesday and gets a

:09:34.:09:35.

straightforward deal or no Deal vote. I have a funny feeling this

:09:36.:09:39.

amendment, if it's chosen, we must remember because we don't know if

:09:40.:09:43.

they will choose this amendment, if it does go to a vote on Wednesday it

:09:44.:09:49.

will be very tight indeed. Remember, one final thing Theresa May can do

:09:50.:09:52.

if she gets Parliament voting against, as Isabel would have it,

:09:53.:09:58.

she could try to get a new parliament and go for a general

:09:59.:10:02.

election. And probably get a huge majority to do so. The Lords, it

:10:03.:10:08.

goes there after the February recess. They are very pro-Europe,

:10:09.:10:18.

but does their instinct for self-preservation override that? I

:10:19.:10:24.

think that is it. A Tory Lord said this morning I will vote to block it

:10:25.:10:27.

on a conscience measure, but you have the likes of Bill Cash, veteran

:10:28.:10:33.

Eurosceptics, suddenly converted to the Lords reform saying is an

:10:34.:10:37.

outrage. I doubt they will vote for their own demise, to hasten their

:10:38.:10:40.

own demise by blocking it. What did you make of Doctor Gorka smart

:10:41.:10:48.

fascinating. Cut from the same cloth as his boss. I thought it was

:10:49.:10:51.

extraordinary listening to him, saying everything is going dutifully

:10:52.:10:55.

to plan. But at the end of the day, what they are doing is what people

:10:56.:10:59.

in America voted for Trump to do. If you look at Lord Ashcroft's polling

:11:00.:11:03.

on why America voted for Trump, they went into this with their eyes wide

:11:04.:11:07.

open. One of the top fears among American voters, particularly

:11:08.:11:13.

Republican leading ones was America's immigration policy is or

:11:14.:11:16.

could be letting in terror arrests. As far as he is concerned, he is

:11:17.:11:21.

doing what he was elected to do. This whole year is turning into a

:11:22.:11:24.

wonderful year long lecture series on how democracy works at a

:11:25.:11:27.

fundamental level. I'm not sure anyone wanted it but it's what we've

:11:28.:11:31.

got. This same in the way we've been talking about direct democracy and

:11:32.:11:36.

Parliamentary democracy. The same is happening in America between

:11:37.:11:41.

executive and judicial branches. We are seeing the limits of

:11:42.:11:45.

presidential power. Regardless of the fact that people voted for Trump

:11:46.:11:49.

they voted for senators. The judge who blocks this was appointed by

:11:50.:11:54.

George W Bush. So-called Judge Eckert Mac so-called George W Bush!

:11:55.:11:59.

It's fascinating we're having all these conversations now that I never

:12:00.:12:02.

bought five years ago we would be having at such a fundamental level.

:12:03.:12:07.

Has the media yet worked out how to cover the Trump administration or

:12:08.:12:11.

has he got us behaving like headless chickens? He says something

:12:12.:12:17.

incendiary and we all run over to do that and when you pick it off it

:12:18.:12:22.

turns out not to be as incendiary as we thought? And then back doing

:12:23.:12:25.

something and we all rush over there. Is he making fools of us? Is

:12:26.:12:30.

exactly what he did in the election campaign. So many quick and fast

:12:31.:12:35.

outrageous comments frontrunner on a daily basis, no one single one of

:12:36.:12:39.

them had full news cycle time to be pored over and examined. I think

:12:40.:12:43.

there is a problem with this. Although he keeps the upper hand,

:12:44.:12:48.

keeps the agenda and keeps on the populist ground, the problem is it

:12:49.:12:52.

easy to campaign like that. If you are governing in a state of

:12:53.:12:55.

semi-hysteria, I wonder how long the American public will be comfortable

:12:56.:12:58.

with that. They don't really want their government to be swirling

:12:59.:13:01.

chaos all the time, as fascinating as it might be on TV. They will be

:13:02.:13:06.

exhausted by it, I already am. I have been interviewing White House

:13:07.:13:12.

administration official since 1976 and that is the first time someone

:13:13.:13:16.

hasn't given me a straight answer on America supporting the EU. That is a

:13:17.:13:17.

different world. Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two

:13:18.:13:19.

tomorrow at midday with the Daily Politics -

:13:20.:13:23.

and I'll be back here Remember, if it's Sunday -

:13:24.:13:25.

it's the Sunday Politics. TV: He's not your father.

:13:26.:14:04.

WOMAN GASPS so why not pay your TV licence in

:14:05.:14:17.

weekly instalments, too?

:14:18.:14:31.

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