25/09/2016 Sunday Politics


Andrew Neil is joined by Lord Prescott, Luke Akehurst of LabourList and Labour NEC member-elect Rhea Wolfson (see regional variations for details).

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Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided


who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before.


So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour?


Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.


I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn


elected as leader of the Labour Party.


Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean".


But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in?


We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak


to one peer who's quitting the party in protest.


Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever.


His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah


but he will never become the leader -


He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years -


we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years.


David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May


because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the


Was she a secret brexiteer or just manoeuvring for the top job?


In the capital, how is this rivalry shaping up?


London's Mayor warns pointedly that you can only change lives


And we tried to oust them from the programme -


but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best


and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards,


Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting


David Cameron became intensely frustrated


at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions


in the run-up to the EU referendum campaign.


That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor.


The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons:


The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail


The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy


Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach


At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's


Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's


He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after


saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow".


And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over


backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read


There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we


know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us


is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the


only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a


submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during


the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why


does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning,


they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing


fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver


says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of


Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind


Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did


she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a


reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer.


What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was


she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is


unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things


we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to


which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet


seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we


see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be


exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the


fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I


missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a


minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he


would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and


politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking


them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the


country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis


of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics


before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played


the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the


Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them


and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective


during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the


leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that


effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official


at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me


earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had


declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great


admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that.


So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made


Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing


contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership


ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the


Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and


the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they


wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of


the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more


about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile


for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't


want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They


calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa


May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than


Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed


her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for


20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more


about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there


too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as


an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we


need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing


Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who


likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is


tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we


want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the


result everyone expected. After almost three months


of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before -


so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged -


or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching


events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour


family facing the future. He was the head of the family last


week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader


and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader


and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest


and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just


over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's


plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members


all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive


education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school


segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging


agenda for our country. But the big message


to his party was this. We have much more in common


than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe


that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do


as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go


and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy


Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory


parties, but the most important thing now is just


bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing


is going around all the different individual party receptions,


the different regions and giving the same unity message,


and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea,


with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found


a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited


in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going


to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you?


Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me


so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you?


Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out


their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound


entirely convinced. It was fine.


What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm


the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that


Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates


within the PLP. I think that's


the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then


change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter,


posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America,


he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those


issues as well. This is a position,


as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in


position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister


of this country unless you appeal to the great population,


and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no


leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference,


they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics


are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially


plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter


here at the festival running alongside conference,


organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon


that they have managed to get their hero elected,


not just once but twice. And we're joined now


by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.


Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of


2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey,


or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK?


You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest.


As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated


plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because


I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I


was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find


ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the


capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a


concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A


number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was


clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At


the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said


he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did


there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger


than ever. What we have done this is have a


really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was


important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out


and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got


to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the


last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to


understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective


opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to


get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but


only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him


the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this


process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the


2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who


knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when


it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would


have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and


it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your


party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can


unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the


country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest


of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to


continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of


the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General


Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We


need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but


it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next


General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and


capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course,


everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are


competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer


that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have


doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been


honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over


the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the


concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be


congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear


victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that


they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my


mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party


forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit


unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the


Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around.


Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about


wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The


time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his


willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet


should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? --


majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the


cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been


playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours


following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the


last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing


that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His


support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the


membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who


gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So


why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that


part of the Labour Party which likes him least?


I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party


incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order


to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic


duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't


have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of


travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful


results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability


to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU.


If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs --


he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and


humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he


could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he


sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many


would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be


good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that


route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow


Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit


in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't


changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you


just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two


leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even


bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the


country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in


the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my


experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I


think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary


Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition.


I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the


backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the


front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me,


Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have


you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would


you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow


Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take


their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to


their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of


the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for


some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed


Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general


fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to


be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did


Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's?


I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond


the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy


Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment


programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy


Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen


Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy


Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and'


John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left


and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as


left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have


any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did,


actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and


our belief that the British people should have a say on the final


Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general


election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as


well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the


difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has


changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear


difference between the new members who have come in and those who were


party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would


be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who


more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we


want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the


Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about


that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!)


Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young,


new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I


would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what


I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be


honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a


hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new


members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom


have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should


remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people


joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so


there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy


Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I


understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know


there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when


you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the


biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a


team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she


will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet


elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi


Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this


leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade


Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use


the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee


is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win


control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn


first became leader, there has been a fine balance


on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election,


the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up


to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members


representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference,


the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour,


with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these


could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been


boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe,


who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed


a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour


leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn


Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move


to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet,


a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks


three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three,


Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth,


is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect


people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists


on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting


the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more


say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow


Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future


leadership elections, which would make it almost


impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making


a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared


by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson -


a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC


and takes up her seat at the end of the week -


and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith


in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The


figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn


and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is


very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn


supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What


about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives


to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would


be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties.


In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the


balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing


because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh


representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries,


it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think


of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm


really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's


incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative.


So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives,


they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales?


Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving


towards having better representation, it's actually taking


an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review,


the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that


would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote


from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that


through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is


it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I


understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the


conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting


things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on


conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the


side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those.


Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that


could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections


for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I


don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you


can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is


this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't


serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would


you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to


listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it


entirely elected by members. All elected?


But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one


third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP


could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn


agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about


party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional


unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories


to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you


need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not


come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A


few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some


kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is


political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row.


If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words


of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and


should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like


that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a


decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having,


and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory


deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the


PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other


ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other


ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the


Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership


of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between


the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of


people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some


of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other


way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could


change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a


membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already


vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off


people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour


heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was


an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in


the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could


reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come


back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to


recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done.


It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting!


It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, I'll be talking to former


Deputy Prime minister and conference stalwart,


First, the Sunday Politics where you are.


Jeremy Corbyn's strengthened mandate among a membership


And catching our eye in particular is the Sunday Times, which has


the headline that London's Mayor, Sadiq Khan, thinks "a Corbyn purge


That is what the headline says. This is about the threat of deselection


to MPs and so on. What about that relationship


between Corbyn and Khan? A little later, we'll


be wondering aloud whether Mr Khan may one


day, or even now, have It looks like that particular


tendency could be catching, But there was an exception -


one of our guests today, Ken Livingstone,


London's first Mayor, who didn't have his eye on the top


job, to our knowledge. Neither, as far as we know,


does Theresa Villiers, but we'll find that out later,


now that she is no Ken Livingstone, let's start on


Labour, of course. Heidi Alexander has just told Andrew that Jeremy


Corbyn, his leadership etc, he really needs to get his act


together. Do you agree? No. The simple fact is we have had a year of


Labour MPs underlining Jeremy and making personal attacks. You look


back at the days when we had Tony Blair -- undermining Jeremy. We


criticised policies, we didn't say this man is not fit to govern. That


has been damaging to the Labour Party. They've got to accept it,


they will not get rid of Jeremy. We should focus on persuading people


that Jeremy's economic strategy could actually work. Massive


investment, modernising our infrastructure, cracking down on


Google and Starbucks so they pay their fair share of tax so we can


put more money into education and health without taxing ordinary


people. What happens now? Does he offer that olive branch to those


MPs, former Shadow Cabinet members who have left? He did a year ago.


Should he do it now? He will, he will be on the phone to them. Some


have already said they will not come back and join but I think we just


have to move on from that. 35 years ago when the SDP split happened the


people leading that were giant figures, everyone in Britain knew


who they were. These people criticising Jeremy, most people


haven't got a clue who they are. What do you feel about inviting


people back? Would you like Heidi Alexander, who is still critical,


invited back? I think Jeremy will. Do you think he should? I think he


will and he should. If they stay in that it on the backbenches that is


up to them, we will get on with campaigning and reaching out to the


public not worrying too much about a few embittered old Blairites. How do


you feel about this? He seems to be offering warm words this morning,


Jeremy Corbyn, to Andrew Marr, reassuring those MPs who were


worried about the threat of deselection? How do you feel about


these MPs who campaigned against him automatically being reselected? I've


always been in favour of reselection. When I was Labour MP


for Brent East the right-wingers would put up a candidate against me


and I didn't object to that. If you look at America, everyone from the


President down to small-time mayor are up for reselection in every


election, it's about democracy. Jeremy has made it quite clear he


will not bring back automatic reselection because that would mean


further schisms in the party. So you wouldn't want to see it? I


personally would but if you look back, we introduced it in about 1980


and carried on until Blair got in at only about five MPs wherever


deselected. Do you have any optimism that the kind of civil war, or


whatever it is, is going to ease? I think it will because there will be


a large block of MPs in Labour who oppose Jeremy, who now recognise


they have got Jeremy up to the next General Election and they will get


behind him because they would rather see a Labour government and another


five years of the Tories. The vast bulk will come on board but there


will be some sitting around whining on the backbenches. What is your


advice? How is Jeremy Corbyn going to win those kind of seats that


ensures he forms a government? You cannot look me in the eye and say he


is in that position now? Do you agree? We have the economic strategy


that could work. Every time Labour lost a General Election is because


people didn't think our economic policy was credible. Jeremy's is.


It's the policy that many on the left have been arguing for four


years. Massive investment. We are so run down as a country. Look at the


state of our roads, our broadband is positively antique compare to what


you've got in places like China and Hong Kong. Theresa, we cannot let


you be a spectator any longer. The ideal time in chipping Barnett and


across London and everywhere else to go for a snap election. Well, I


don't think we should rush into a snap election, but I do think the


Labour Party is in a disastrous state. They are massively divided.


They are chaotic and incompetent. And just to hear Jeremy Corbyn on


the BBC this morning talking about, oh well, the previous Labour


government didn't spend too much, he just doesn't get the fact that you


have to live within your means to run a healthy economy. You have to


have helped the public finances to allow businesses to grow to deliver


the economic stability we need for jobs. And if we can't do that then


the NHS will suffer, our transport will suffer. The people who suffer


most when people like Jeremy Corbyn get in charge of the public finances


and messed them up, the people who suffer most are the most


disadvantaged in our society. That you haven't added yet, we should


never be complacent. We are absolutely not complacent because we


know there are important things we need to change in this country, we


need to make our transport system better. We need to ensure that it's


a country that works for everyone, that everyone shares in the benefits


of economic growth. But the reality is that it would be reckless and


disastrous for this country if Labour became the next government.


It would be chaos. Dying to come back on that, Ken, but you can pick


up on it in the next section, if you like!


Londoners have got very used to stories of tensions between City


Remember the warmth between Mr Livingstone and Mr Brown?


A few months into his mayoralty - and with his very big


personal mandate - is Sadiq Khan an asset


The story of Labour's Civil War has twists and turns worthy


In a dramatic series finale, house Corbyn saw of its rivals


In a dramatic series finale, house Corbyn saw off its rivals


So what now for the man across the water in City Hall, Sadiq Khan?


Arguably the most powerful Labour politician in the country.


Once upon a time cover two were happy to pose


Last year, Sadiq Khan even nominated Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership.


But since then, there have been disagreements over everything


from singing the national anthem to whether to campaign with


Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said it discredited


And come this summer, Sadiq Khan support a change


Owen Smith is the right leader for our party and why I think he's


the best chance we've got to win the next election.


It is smart of Sadiq to be this counterpoint to Corbyn,


to say that "Corbyn can do his thing and get people into his rallies,


but what I'm interested in is government, power,


changing laws and making life better for people."


All things that critics of the Labour leader


That he is too focused on ideological purity,


But since that wasn't the view of party members,


His first move was to congratulate Corbyn on his victory.


Here is Hammersmith MP Andy Slaughter, a friend


I think he will bring the Labour Party down-to-earth


and say it's hard work winning elections and it is even harder


And he's done the first spectacularly and he's done a good


job so far in his first 100 days setting out his programme,


and he's got some solid achievements there, particularly


And he's saying, this is what I'm doing, you should all


But Corbyn supporters say that what Labour should actually be doing


The Labour Party has twice said that they would like


I think for some sections of the party, I think it's really


time to internalise that reality and figure out how to work


within it, but what we're seeing instead is this tendency to sort


of cast around and look for other potential leaders, who would perhaps


be better to lead the party, rather than to focus on the actual


elected leader and how they might unite around him.


A clue about how things are going to go could well come


from the Labour conference this week and how the man uses his speech.


from the Labour conference this week and how the Mayor uses his speech.


Speculation is already one running high.


I don't think Sadiq is going to cause too much mischief.


I would be surprised if he mentions Corbyn more than a few times,


But I think above all what he will do is use that as a message,


sorry, as a platform, to present himself as a rival future leader.


I think Sadiq is basically going to use the next nine years,


between now and 2025, to present himself as an alternative


leader for Labour who could actually become Prime Minister and take back


control of that place over there, the House of Commons.


Before getting too carried away with the idea of two warring clans,


it's worth remembering that Sadiq Khan has never said he wants


The idea of a clash between two rival powers could turn out to be


more of a fantasy story than a reality.


We could of course be jumping the gun a little. But what harm in that?


What do you say about the election result going back to May? Was down


to Sadiq Khan's unique gifts, or down to Jeremy Corbyn and Jeremy


Corbyn's Labour that he won? Both coming together. Which was more


important? I think it was the fact that amongst Londoners it was a


rejection of an unpleasant Tory campaign smearing Sadiq Khan as a


terrorist sympathiser. People were not going to do that, Londoners are


not stupid, they knew that Muslims and terrorists are not synonymous


and it was an unpleasant campaign. Jeremy threw everything behind


getting him elected. If you look at the result, he was only 1% less than


when I won in 2000, the best result we had anywhere in the country.


He didn't campaign with Jeremy Corbyn much during the campaign. We


see things like Corbyn purge could destroy the country and, you have to


win elections before you achieve anything. I think Sadiq Khan should


not be undermining Jeremy Hunt that way. He's nowhere near as bad as


some of the MPs in terms of what he's saying. If you look at the


problems I had with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, I was expelled from


the Labour Party and Lord Browne didn't speak to me until he became


Prime Minister. I think if we saw a Labour government, Sadiq Khan and


Jeremy would get on fine with a major programme of investment,


building new council houses on things like that, and Jeremy knows


that. But do you think it is undermining Jeremy? It is a bit, but


Jeremy Paris been re-elected, everyone including Sadiq have to put


that behind them and we have to focus on explaining to people how we


can do better, grow the economy. Germany export five times what we do


to China. They have never allowed their banks to dictate the economy.


They have modernised... We have allowed hours to die out. Frankly I


wouldn't have got involved when I was Mayor of London in internal


party conflicts like that because you've got to work with whoever wins


and you don't want to do anything to damage your relationship with them.


He called for your suspension over those remarks at the time, which we


don't have to rehearse. He was probably misled. If you look at the


home affairs select it says in the statement... If I had said that, I


would have apologise, but I didn't say that. The fact that he chose


that opportunity to say you should be suspended straightaway and you


were someone who had backed him to be mayor? What was interesting, the


people backing Jeremy Campbell 90% of them were voting for Sadiq and


vice versa. They were both seen as good candidates with an alternative


to the Blair years and I think Sadiq should put that behind them now and


work with Jeremy. If we can elect a Labour government, Sadiq will get


billions of pounds for investment in London. The discussion we have is


all about the labour mayoral figure, but how disappointed are you with


that result? I was obviously hugely disappointed that Zac Goldsmith did


not win the election, I think he would have been a great mayor, but


the government will try to work constructively with Sadiq on matters


important to all Londoners. Ken Livingstone mentions the negative


nature of the campaign, widely perceived? The questions were asked


and Sadiq has answered them in terms of being elected and we need to move


on from that and work constructively together. It was a bit more than


that. The vast majority of the campaign was about issues of concern


to Londoners, how much they pay in council tax, the transport system,


policing. There was discussion at the end about people with whom Sadiq


had shared a platform but that was elected and he won, so we move on.


You say you want to see a constructive relationship between


the government and the mayor, but at the same time, you want to make


things difficult for him because he is a Labour mayor? We will certainly


hold him to account. This idea of a big difference between him and


Jeremy Corbyn is overplayed, frankly. What they have in common is


that they both want to carry on borrowing forever and they want to


raise taxes. I believe Labour in power in this country would be


severely damaging to jobs and economic stability. They are


different but what unites them is the not balancing the books. The


simple fact is that John McDonnell, every budget he produced was


balanced and there was not a penny of borrowing for revenue. Every


government, they have all borrowed. The simple fact is, with the


exception of two years under Nigella Lawson, Tory governments have


borrowed 2% to 3% of GDP to balance their budget. Before we start


heading into that macroeconomic, let's move on a bit.


We've entered a fresh phase in Ukip's life


with Nigel Farage stepping down and a new leader,


another MEP, Diane James, taking hold of the reins.


She describes those in favour of staying


60% of Londoners voted to remain, everyone acknowledges that figure.


My use of the term Remainiacs was to refer to the absolutely small


core that just want to completely ignore the outcome of


Should the 1 million Londoners, people working here but who come


from other EU member states, have anything to fear from Ukip


Right the way through the referendum campaign, Ukip made the point,


we were not looking at mass expulsion, from either


the United Kingdom back to Europe or expecting our member state


counterparts in Europe to reciprocate and expel people.


That is not what grown-up countries do.


So there is no risk, no threat at all from Ukip.


If anything, there is a risk and a threat coming from this


current government, that is yet to come off the fence


and actually straightforwardly set out that individuals


from European Union states who are here lawfully


and legally are here to stay and can enjoy being a member


and contribute to the fabric of United Kingdom's society.


A new face, a new town. New danger? I think Ukip are sort of struggling


to find a role for themselves. They are more divided than the Labour


Party but more importantly a lot of their supporters are rejoining the


Conservatives, because we gave the country the choice of whether to be


in the EU and now we've voted to leave, that significantly undermines


the point of Ukip. Do they still represent a danger to Labour in


particular in northern areas? Wanting to get back the east of


London, Kent and so on? There are a lot of traditional working class


areas where people felt a Labour government... In Scotland they voted


SNP, in the north they voted for Ukip. We have to show these people


that we can get homes for them to rent or buy and we can give good


education for their children. Theresa May asked a dozen times may


be to come out and stand up and be more part of supporting David


Cameron. A secret Brexiteer, do you think? Was she on your side,


privately, maybe? There were times when I did wonder! Her speech in the


referendum campaign expressed real concerns about the possibility of


Turkey joining the EU and it also said that the sky is not going to


fall in if we leave. There were certain pointers in it which I think


were a lot more pragmatic and down-to-earth than what some of the


other Remainers were saying. I think she was genuinely listening to both


sides. Do you think she had an idea that she would be challenging for


the leadership and all that? I think despite all the acres of newsprint


to the contrary, this was a defining issue for us in all parts of the


political spectrum. We had to decide, did we want to be an


independent self-governing country again? What about her and her


position? She was not out there fighting tooth and nail with George


Osborne and David Cameron and so on. She took a side and made a decision.


She's always been strongly in favour of the security co-operation that


comes with being in the EU, I think. Budgie also recognised that there


were credible arguments on both sides and I think that was


represented in how she approached the referendum campaign.


Now the rest of the week's political news in 60 seconds.


London Mayor Sadiq Khan has asked the MP for Barking,


Margaret Hodge, to chair a review of the Garden Bridge project.


Ms Hodge will examine whether value for money has been achieved


from the taxpayer's ?60 million contribution to the bridge.


The mayor has said no more taxpayer money should be spent on the bridge.


A compulsory purchase order to make residents of a London


council estate sell their flats, ahead of a regeneration


Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Sajid Javid,


told Southwark Council it had not done enough to protect Aylesbury


estate residents, arguing that the residents would not be able


to stay on the estate or live nearby.


Sadiq Khan has called for London to get New York-style powers over


taxes and public services, following his five-day


tour of North America, urging the Government to devolve


more responsibility to City Hall over areas including transport,


Going ahead with the Garden Bridge, it is not to latest grab this? I


have to say, I'm not an enthusiast for the garden bridge. If it's going


to happen, I don't think there should be more public money poured


into it. It was always an idea as something promoted as something that


would be built and funded by the private sector. It has to be that,


doesn't it? I know there is a certain amount of money committed to


it already and I'm reluctant to see that, to be honest, but I don't want


to see any more spent on it. Labour were saying we want to build this


garden bridge, all the money would be raised by the private sector,


they didn't ask me for a penny. Now they're talking about ?60 million


going into it. If you've got that sort of money, that are much more


important areas to build a bridge, like parts of East London where


there aren't any bridges. I would say, if you want to build it, that's


fine, but don't come to me or TEFL or that money because it can be


better spent elsewhere. It looks like she's a bit cold on northern


devolution and all that stuff? I think if we devolve in London, we


should devolve to the borough 's. They are closest to local


communities. Sometimes devolution in London seems to involve a withdrawal


of powers from the borough is to the mayor. Absolutely dissolve


everything. We are the most centralised of all the Western


democracies. I was explaining to a Russian politician about the system


and he said it is worse than under Stalin!


Welcome back - and we're joined now by John Prescott, who's been coming


to Labour Conferences for more than 50 years.


And our political panel, Tom Newton-Dunn, Rachel Shabi


John Prescott, welcome back to the Sunday Politics and a Labour


conference. In a much changed Liverpool! I can't believe it. That


looks amazing. Has the Labour Party ever been at a low ahead in the past


50 is? It's an interesting question. I hear everyone going back 50 years


but we've always had fierce battles in the Labour Party, whether it was


nuclear or the left or the right, we used to fight over the Treasurer's


vote! There have always been those strong battles. It has become more


personal now, it is more abuse than argument and we've got to move away


from that. Do you share the fears of your old colleague Neil Kinnock,


that there might not be another Labour government in his lifetime?


Who was that? Neil Kinnock, former leader of the Labour Party? When I


heard him saying there will never be another Labour government in his


lifetime... Basically, Neil, you did lose to elections and Michael foot


lost that election. We lost with Ed Miliband... There is no doubt he's


got great experience of that but he is wrong! I thought we would get to


the answer! Is the Labour Party at a very low ebb? It is, but I think


you're absolutely right, it is a great myth that in the past there


weren't huge, passionate internal debates. Under Wilson's leadership,


there were problems all over the place but he won for elections out


of five, he always used to say. It has become much more personal now


with the social media thing going on in that kind of raises it to a


different temperature. If it was accepted they could argue


over policy, as was in the past and as will be the case with the


Conservatives over Brexit, then there might be a way of working


around this. As things stand at the moment it is a completely


nightmarish, circuitous debate where the MPs slack him off and his


supporters slack them off and it gets nowhere. The danger for Labour


is earlier in the programme we talked about elections to the NEC


and who will hold the balance of power there and the battles coming


of the argument over how to choose the Shadow Cabinet, Labour can't


afford another year of talking about itself. No, that is right, and the


public isn't remotely interested in these very tedious internal


machinations. Look, Jeremy Corbyn has proved himself twice. There can


be no clearer message that the party really needs to put this behind them


and focus on unifying. I think the other great myth, we're talking


about the myths of history and time and the centre-right. The myth is


that they have all the answers. They clearly don't. They haven't been


able to persuade their own selectors of their own eligibility and they


haven't been able to persuade the general public that a right words


shifting Labour Party is preferable and desirable. So maybe it's time


for them to think, you know what, Jeremy Corbyn has won two leadership


elections, he has caused the party to be swelled, its ranks swelled and


it's the largest party in Europe and people are galvanised, motivated and


energised in a way they haven't been for so long. People have been


apathetic about politics for so long. May be that wing of the party


has something to learn from Corbyn rather than the other way around. I


couldn't get Heidi Alexander to answer this. Is there any doubt that


Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour into the 2020 election? I think there is a


small doubt. He could still be toppled. Who would topple him? The


unions. This massive force in Labour politics, centre-left politics,


which no one has come close to talking about in the last few days,


we have a huge election coming up the after next for the Unite union.


Len McCluskey is running again. If he stands down, they have already


lost the GMB and Unison are not fond of him, if he does go it is curtains


for him. It is about fundamental change taking place. Everyone of us


has got to think differently, including me. They have all got to


say for the party have said this with their new members, we have a


different way of doing things and we want some of the old policies


rehearsed and put forward again. The changes, whether in the PLP, the


trade unions or elsewhere, things have changed, it's a big change


coming to the Labour Party and thank God. I remember arguing with Tony


Blair whether we should call it new Labour or old Labour and he wanted


to call it new Labour and I said why don't we call it Labour. There is a


change in policy, they want fundamental change, they are


entitled to have it, he has won two elections, why do we think of the


revolutionary thought, he is our leader until the next election, get


on for the ride and fight the Tories instead of fighting ourselves. There


is one really good answer to that, that is all well and good but you


are 26% in the polls, an all-time historic low that is where Corbyn is


taking them. All too often we talk about the polls. Terrible


inconvenience! Let us go along this road, see how we can do it, the PLP,


let's just for the argument is about the election of the Shadow Cabinet.


The PLP voted against Shadow Cabinet is only two or three years ago and


now it wants them back. Quite right, I support them, I've been party to


them. For god sake, can get on with fighting the Tories, back the


leadership for the moment? I have to say to Jeremy, talking about splits


in part is, we have already wondering, Momentum crazy things,


argue the case for change. Electoral College instead of one man, one


vote. I've always fought for one man one vote. That would be going


backwards, would it not? It would strengthen the PLP. We have to look


at all of these fears and do a proper conference as I advocate, but


think about it first. We have ?3 members at Miliband came through and


whacked that through special conference. We need to think about


how we've done things in the past, trade unions, members of Parliament,


PLP members, they want change, they are entitled democratically to see


if we will listen to them at implement it democratically. Jeremy


must show leadership. What does showing leadership mean? There are


two things. The election of a Shadow Cabinet if you want to do that.


Elected by whom? That could be the PLP to begin with. We can't wait


until the conference comes along, 11th of October. These things are


constitutional. In the coming elections he is the leader, he could


put in people he feels he has to have their in the Shadow Cabinet,


because it's all about power distribution, and give the PLP the


right to put some people in and then look at the issues of whether other


members should be involved. That's the long-term. At the moment a team


ready for fighting Theresa May, she will be worse than Thatcher. We are


here in the great traditional Labour city, the heartland of traditional


Labour support. Does anybody in Liverpool care how the Shadow


Cabinet is selected? I doubt meet people just outside this building


are talking about that. They will be because they are journalists! I


don't even think they will be! In a way we are contradicting ourselves


because we are saying we should not spend time talking about it and we


are all talking about it. The so-called rebels misjudged this


completely in terms of timing, when they all resigned on the Sunday


after the referendum, they didn't ask, do we have a candidate? What


happens if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't go as a result of this and have they


got themes that can unite the rest of the membership, or a new


membership could to? We keep talking about the voters. Let's not talk


about the Shadow Cabinet because that is an insider conversation.


About the voters, we don't know whether Jeremy Corbyn is electable


or not. We don't know how he would fare with a united team behind him


with over 500,000 members canvassing, campaigning, talking


about his policies. We don't know if for this time, in a time when we are


dealing with massive inequalities, when we're dealing with rampant...


Just, food banks, child poverty and things that should not happen in one


of the wealthiest countries in the world. We don't know whether what


the Labour Party proposes under Jeremy Corbyn will resonate. We will


have a chance to find out. One of the things that is interesting is


that clearly the membership of the party has changed dramatically, even


in the past 12 months. Will the Parliamentary party change as a


result of that? There has been talk of the and reselection. This is what


Mr Corbyn had to say this morning. The relationship


between an MP and their It's not necessarily


all the policy tick It's also the relationships,


the community, the effectiveness of representation


and all those issues. Let's have a democratic discussion


and I think the vast majority of MPs will have


no problem whatsoever. Is it's not inevitable, given that


you've talked about it yourself, this huge change taking place in the


Labour Party membership, that the Parliamentary party will have to


change to reflect that? To some extent the PLP is the creation of


the previous membership, not the new membership. That is right. Some


people were opposing him within weeks when he was elected and


pulling out of the cabinet and I don't think they will change. They


might want to stay on the backbenches, they don't want to


divide the party so they will fight for the party from the backbenches.


The greater majority of those in the PLP they didn't want to go on this


road of no confidence, that was one when they were kidded into believing


that if they had a begin of no confidence he would pick of the


revolver and shoot himself. It never was going to happen. So let's say,


keep your view, if you don't want to get involved, fine, but now you are


required to take account, looking at the policy issues between us rather


than fighting ourselves. He has got to show leadership. He is the man in


charge of it. That's why the election of the Capanagh has become


more important inside the PLP. It's a struggle, isn't it? The PLP


produced a whole package of things with electoral reform. Let's get on


with that, put it on the side, get a team ready for October the 11th to


fight the Tories are using our energy and fighting the Tories and I


think the majority of MPs are on board for that. Will Rachel get to


see her united Labour Party behind Mr Corbyn going into another


election? No. This is it. We have to look at the facts on the table, the


Labour Party, the PLP and the people in the country, those people who


voted for Owen Smith, they are so far apart ideologically, the hard


left and there is the Blairite right and those two will never unite and


it's all very well John saying so and I admire your optimism but you


and I know it will not happen. It has got to for our people. The party


and our country wants it. If your press get onside instead of being so


vicious about Corbyn, not just your paper, but most of them have had a


kind of hostility that has not been seen before. It has taken ten


minutes but eventually we got there. Perhaps we will wait and see. The


ideological gap is as big as the 80s, partly because on both sides


there is a complete lack of clarity about what they believe in and where


they want to go. The early 80s, Roy Jenkins knew exactly what there were


four and so did Tony Benn. There is that clarity of vision now. It is


all blurred and muddled so there is a problem and an opportunity there.


Second, I think the crunch point in this Parliament for Jeremy Corbyn,


not now obviously, but if and when the Tories have a crisis over Brexit


and if at that point Labour are 25, 20 6% in the polls he will have a


crisis. Let me interrupt you because the really big political event


yesterday wasn't what was happening here in Liverpool, it happened on


BBC One on your TV screens. It was Ed Balls in Strictly. Let's see how


that went. Dancing the waltz,


Ed Balls and Katya Jones. There we go, glitter balls on


strictly. I bet you wish you had been there. I turned it down some


time ago. So did I! What was the woman who did it? Edwina. BBC


journalists, the public like people like that and supported in many ways


but they fall out because they can't dance. That is a drawback. They love


them for not dancing, they love the fact they are trying. But they


didn't win. I love dancing myself, but frankly you've got to have some


movement. There has got to be a flow in the body and the feel of the


music. I think you've got it there! You want to do it, I can tell!


Doesn't he? He wants to do it. That is not dancing, it's about the


movement of the body, the music and the spirit. You should be a judge on


the programme. I give it eight! Today talking about Jeremy Corbyn,


they love this, it humanises it. You can see a petition to get him on. I


can see it happening. We may have to speak to compliance about it!


Anyway, it has become a part of the Constitution that you and I have to


meet at a Labour conference, so it's good to see you. Two comedians


together. One day we might get a proper job!


I'll be back next week at the Conservative Party


Conference in Birmingham with more Sunday Politics.


And I'll be back tomorrow with the Daily Politics at 11am


over on BBC Two with more from the Labour Conference


We will bring you what is happening in the Labour conference and the


Shadow Chancellor's speech too. Remember, if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics.


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