25/09/2016 Sunday Politics


25/09/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by Lord Prescott, Luke Akehurst of LabourList and Labour NEC member-elect Rhea Wolfson (see regional variations for details).


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Transcript


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Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided

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who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before.

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So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour?

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Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn

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elected as leader of the Labour Party.

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Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean".

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But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in?

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We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak

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to one peer who's quitting the party in protest.

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Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever.

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His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah

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but he will never become the leader -

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He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years -

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we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years.

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David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May

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because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the

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Was she a secret brexiteer or just manoeuvring for the top job?

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In the capital, how is this rivalry shaping up?

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London's Mayor warns pointedly that you can only change lives

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And we tried to oust them from the programme -

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but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best

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and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards,

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Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting

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David Cameron became intensely frustrated

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at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions

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in the run-up to the EU referendum campaign.

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That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor.

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The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons:

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The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail

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The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy

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Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach

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At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's

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Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's

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He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after

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saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow".

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And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over

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backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read

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There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we

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know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us

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is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the

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only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a

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submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during

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the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why

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does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning,

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they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing

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fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver

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says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of

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Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind

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Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did

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she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a

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reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer.

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What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was

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she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is

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unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things

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we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to

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which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet

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seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we

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see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be

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exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the

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fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I

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missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a

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minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he

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would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and

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politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking

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them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the

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country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis

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of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics

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before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played

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the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the

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Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them

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and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective

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during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the

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leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that

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effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official

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at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me

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earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had

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declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great

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admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that.

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So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made

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Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing

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contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership

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ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the

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Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and

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the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they

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wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of

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the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more

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about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile

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for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't

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want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They

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calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa

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May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than

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Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed

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her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for

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20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more

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about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there

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too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as

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an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we

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need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing

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Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who

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likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is

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tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we

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want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the

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result everyone expected. After almost three months

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of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before -

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so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged -

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or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching

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events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour

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family facing the future. He was the head of the family last

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week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader

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and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader

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and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest

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and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just

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over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's

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plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members

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all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive

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education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school

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segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging

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agenda for our country. But the big message

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to his party was this. We have much more in common

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than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe

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that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do

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as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go

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and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy

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Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory

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parties, but the most important thing now is just

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bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing

:10:13.:10:14.

is going around all the different individual party receptions,

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the different regions and giving the same unity message,

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and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea,

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with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found

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a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited

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in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going

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to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you?

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Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me

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so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you?

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Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out

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their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound

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entirely convinced. It was fine.

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What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm

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the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that

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Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates

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within the PLP. I think that's

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the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then

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change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter,

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posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America,

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he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those

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issues as well. This is a position,

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as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in

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position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister

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of this country unless you appeal to the great population,

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and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no

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leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference,

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they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics

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are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially

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plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter

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here at the festival running alongside conference,

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organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon

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that they have managed to get their hero elected,

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not just once but twice. And we're joined now

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by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.

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Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of

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2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey,

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or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK?

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You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest.

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As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated

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plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because

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I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I

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was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find

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ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the

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capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a

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concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A

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number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was

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clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At

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the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said

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he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did

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there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger

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than ever. What we have done this is have a

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really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was

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important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out

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and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got

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to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the

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last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to

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understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective

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opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to

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get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but

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only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him

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the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this

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process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the

:14:42.:14:47.

2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who

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knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when

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it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would

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have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and

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it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your

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party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can

:15:08.:15:11.

unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the

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country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest

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of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to

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continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of

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the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General

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Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We

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need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but

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it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next

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General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and

:15:47.:15:50.

capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course,

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everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are

:15:54.:15:56.

competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer

:15:57.:16:00.

that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have

:16:01.:16:05.

doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been

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honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over

:16:09.:16:12.

the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the

:16:13.:16:15.

concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be

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congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear

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victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that

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they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my

:16:30.:16:34.

mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party

:16:35.:16:38.

forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit

:16:39.:16:43.

unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the

:16:44.:16:47.

Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around.

:16:48.:16:52.

Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about

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wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The

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time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his

:17:06.:17:11.

willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet

:17:12.:17:13.

should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? --

:17:14.:17:22.

majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the

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cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been

:17:30.:17:33.

playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours

:17:34.:17:38.

following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the

:17:39.:17:41.

last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing

:17:42.:17:47.

that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His

:17:48.:17:51.

support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the

:17:52.:17:55.

membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who

:17:56.:18:01.

gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So

:18:02.:18:05.

why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that

:18:06.:18:08.

part of the Labour Party which likes him least?

:18:09.:18:12.

I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party

:18:13.:18:19.

incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order

:18:20.:18:25.

to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic

:18:26.:18:28.

duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't

:18:29.:18:33.

have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of

:18:34.:18:37.

travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful

:18:38.:18:41.

results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability

:18:42.:18:49.

to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU.

:18:50.:18:54.

If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs --

:18:55.:19:04.

he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and

:19:05.:19:08.

humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he

:19:09.:19:12.

could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he

:19:13.:19:16.

sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many

:19:17.:19:22.

would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be

:19:23.:19:26.

good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that

:19:27.:19:29.

route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow

:19:30.:19:36.

Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit

:19:37.:19:40.

in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't

:19:41.:19:43.

changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you

:19:44.:19:50.

just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two

:19:51.:19:57.

leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even

:19:58.:20:02.

bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the

:20:03.:20:08.

country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in

:20:09.:20:11.

the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my

:20:12.:20:15.

experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I

:20:16.:20:18.

think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary

:20:19.:20:23.

Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition.

:20:24.:20:28.

I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the

:20:29.:20:33.

backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the

:20:34.:20:37.

front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me,

:20:38.:20:40.

Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have

:20:41.:20:45.

you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would

:20:46.:20:50.

you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow

:20:51.:20:56.

Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take

:20:57.:20:59.

their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to

:21:00.:21:04.

their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of

:21:05.:21:07.

the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for

:21:08.:21:11.

some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed

:21:12.:21:17.

Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general

:21:18.:21:23.

fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to

:21:24.:21:26.

be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did

:21:27.:21:33.

Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's?

:21:34.:21:37.

I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond

:21:38.:21:40.

the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy

:21:41.:21:44.

Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment

:21:45.:21:49.

programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy

:21:50.:21:51.

Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen

:21:52.:22:03.

Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy

:22:04.:22:08.

Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and'

:22:09.:22:13.

John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left

:22:14.:22:21.

and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as

:22:22.:22:25.

left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have

:22:26.:22:29.

any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did,

:22:30.:22:35.

actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and

:22:36.:22:38.

our belief that the British people should have a say on the final

:22:39.:22:43.

Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general

:22:44.:22:47.

election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as

:22:48.:22:53.

well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the

:22:54.:22:59.

difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has

:23:00.:23:05.

changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear

:23:06.:23:08.

difference between the new members who have come in and those who were

:23:09.:23:12.

party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would

:23:13.:23:18.

be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who

:23:19.:23:24.

more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we

:23:25.:23:28.

want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the

:23:29.:23:32.

Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about

:23:33.:23:37.

that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!)

:23:38.:23:42.

Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young,

:23:43.:23:48.

new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I

:23:49.:23:52.

would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what

:23:53.:23:56.

I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be

:23:57.:24:01.

honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a

:24:02.:24:04.

hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new

:24:05.:24:08.

members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom

:24:09.:24:13.

have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should

:24:14.:24:17.

remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people

:24:18.:24:21.

joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so

:24:22.:24:29.

there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy

:24:30.:24:32.

Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I

:24:33.:24:40.

understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know

:24:41.:24:44.

there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when

:24:45.:24:52.

you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the

:24:53.:24:56.

biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a

:24:57.:25:03.

team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she

:25:04.:25:07.

will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet

:25:08.:25:13.

elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi

:25:14.:25:15.

Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this

:25:16.:25:20.

leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade

:25:21.:25:22.

Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use

:25:23.:25:25.

the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee

:25:26.:25:29.

is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win

:25:30.:25:36.

control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn

:25:37.:25:39.

first became leader, there has been a fine balance

:25:40.:25:47.

on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election,

:25:48.:25:50.

the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up

:25:51.:25:59.

to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members

:26:00.:26:01.

representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference,

:26:02.:26:04.

the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour,

:26:05.:26:11.

with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these

:26:12.:26:13.

could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been

:26:14.:26:17.

boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe,

:26:18.:26:25.

who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed

:26:26.:26:29.

a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour

:26:30.:26:34.

leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn

:26:35.:26:38.

Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move

:26:39.:26:41.

to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet,

:26:42.:26:47.

a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks

:26:48.:26:54.

three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three,

:26:55.:27:08.

Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth,

:27:09.:27:14.

is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect

:27:15.:27:17.

people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists

:27:18.:27:21.

on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting

:27:22.:27:23.

the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more

:27:24.:27:25.

say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow

:27:26.:27:27.

Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future

:27:28.:27:30.

leadership elections, which would make it almost

:27:31.:27:32.

impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making

:27:33.:27:35.

a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared

:27:36.:27:37.

by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson -

:27:38.:27:50.

a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC

:27:51.:27:53.

and takes up her seat at the end of the week -

:27:54.:27:56.

and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith

:27:57.:27:59.

in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The

:28:00.:28:18.

figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn

:28:19.:28:26.

and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is

:28:27.:28:34.

very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn

:28:35.:28:41.

supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What

:28:42.:28:45.

about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives

:28:46.:28:49.

to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would

:28:50.:28:52.

be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties.

:28:53.:28:56.

In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the

:28:57.:29:02.

balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing

:29:03.:29:06.

because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh

:29:07.:29:11.

representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries,

:29:12.:29:16.

it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think

:29:17.:29:21.

of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm

:29:22.:29:24.

really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's

:29:25.:29:29.

incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative.

:29:30.:29:36.

So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives,

:29:37.:29:39.

they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales?

:29:40.:29:44.

Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving

:29:45.:29:47.

towards having better representation, it's actually taking

:29:48.:29:51.

an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review,

:29:52.:29:57.

the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that

:29:58.:30:03.

would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote

:30:04.:30:07.

from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that

:30:08.:30:11.

through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is

:30:12.:30:16.

it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I

:30:17.:30:21.

understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the

:30:22.:30:25.

conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting

:30:26.:30:28.

things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on

:30:29.:30:33.

conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the

:30:34.:30:36.

side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those.

:30:37.:30:46.

Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that

:30:47.:30:50.

could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections

:30:51.:30:54.

for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I

:30:55.:31:03.

don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you

:31:04.:31:07.

can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is

:31:08.:31:15.

this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't

:31:16.:31:22.

serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would

:31:23.:31:26.

you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to

:31:27.:31:31.

listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it

:31:32.:31:34.

entirely elected by members. All elected?

:31:35.:31:39.

But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one

:31:40.:31:48.

third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP

:31:49.:31:57.

could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn

:31:58.:32:03.

agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about

:32:04.:32:08.

party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional

:32:09.:32:12.

unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories

:32:13.:32:15.

to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you

:32:16.:32:20.

need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not

:32:21.:32:22.

come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A

:32:23.:32:26.

few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some

:32:27.:32:32.

kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is

:32:33.:32:37.

political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row.

:32:38.:32:41.

If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words

:32:42.:32:50.

of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and

:32:51.:32:53.

should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like

:32:54.:32:58.

that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a

:32:59.:33:02.

decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having,

:33:03.:33:05.

and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory

:33:06.:33:09.

deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the

:33:10.:33:13.

PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other

:33:14.:33:16.

ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other

:33:17.:33:20.

ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the

:33:21.:33:24.

Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership

:33:25.:33:28.

of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between

:33:29.:33:31.

the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of

:33:32.:33:35.

people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some

:33:36.:33:40.

of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other

:33:41.:33:45.

way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could

:33:46.:33:49.

change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a

:33:50.:33:53.

membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already

:33:54.:33:58.

vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off

:33:59.:34:02.

people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour

:34:03.:34:06.

heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was

:34:07.:34:12.

an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in

:34:13.:34:16.

the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could

:34:17.:34:19.

reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come

:34:20.:34:26.

back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to

:34:27.:34:32.

recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done.

:34:33.:34:35.

It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting!

:34:36.:34:41.

It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:34:42.:34:44.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:34:45.:34:46.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, I'll be talking to former

:34:47.:34:50.

Deputy Prime minister and conference stalwart,

:34:51.:34:51.

First, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:34:52.:34:58.

Jeremy Corbyn's strengthened mandate among a membership

:34:59.:35:09.

And catching our eye in particular is the Sunday Times, which has

:35:10.:35:17.

the headline that London's Mayor, Sadiq Khan, thinks "a Corbyn purge

:35:18.:35:19.

That is what the headline says. This is about the threat of deselection

:35:20.:35:27.

to MPs and so on. What about that relationship

:35:28.:35:29.

between Corbyn and Khan? A little later, we'll

:35:30.:35:31.

be wondering aloud whether Mr Khan may one

:35:32.:35:33.

day, or even now, have It looks like that particular

:35:34.:35:35.

tendency could be catching, But there was an exception -

:35:36.:35:44.

one of our guests today, Ken Livingstone,

:35:45.:35:49.

London's first Mayor, who didn't have his eye on the top

:35:50.:35:54.

job, to our knowledge. Neither, as far as we know,

:35:55.:35:57.

does Theresa Villiers, but we'll find that out later,

:35:58.:35:59.

now that she is no Ken Livingstone, let's start on

:36:00.:36:06.

Labour, of course. Heidi Alexander has just told Andrew that Jeremy

:36:07.:36:10.

Corbyn, his leadership etc, he really needs to get his act

:36:11.:36:16.

together. Do you agree? No. The simple fact is we have had a year of

:36:17.:36:20.

Labour MPs underlining Jeremy and making personal attacks. You look

:36:21.:36:25.

back at the days when we had Tony Blair -- undermining Jeremy. We

:36:26.:36:30.

criticised policies, we didn't say this man is not fit to govern. That

:36:31.:36:35.

has been damaging to the Labour Party. They've got to accept it,

:36:36.:36:38.

they will not get rid of Jeremy. We should focus on persuading people

:36:39.:36:42.

that Jeremy's economic strategy could actually work. Massive

:36:43.:36:45.

investment, modernising our infrastructure, cracking down on

:36:46.:36:50.

Google and Starbucks so they pay their fair share of tax so we can

:36:51.:36:53.

put more money into education and health without taxing ordinary

:36:54.:36:57.

people. What happens now? Does he offer that olive branch to those

:36:58.:37:00.

MPs, former Shadow Cabinet members who have left? He did a year ago.

:37:01.:37:06.

Should he do it now? He will, he will be on the phone to them. Some

:37:07.:37:10.

have already said they will not come back and join but I think we just

:37:11.:37:14.

have to move on from that. 35 years ago when the SDP split happened the

:37:15.:37:19.

people leading that were giant figures, everyone in Britain knew

:37:20.:37:23.

who they were. These people criticising Jeremy, most people

:37:24.:37:25.

haven't got a clue who they are. What do you feel about inviting

:37:26.:37:29.

people back? Would you like Heidi Alexander, who is still critical,

:37:30.:37:34.

invited back? I think Jeremy will. Do you think he should? I think he

:37:35.:37:40.

will and he should. If they stay in that it on the backbenches that is

:37:41.:37:44.

up to them, we will get on with campaigning and reaching out to the

:37:45.:37:47.

public not worrying too much about a few embittered old Blairites. How do

:37:48.:37:51.

you feel about this? He seems to be offering warm words this morning,

:37:52.:37:56.

Jeremy Corbyn, to Andrew Marr, reassuring those MPs who were

:37:57.:37:59.

worried about the threat of deselection? How do you feel about

:38:00.:38:05.

these MPs who campaigned against him automatically being reselected? I've

:38:06.:38:07.

always been in favour of reselection. When I was Labour MP

:38:08.:38:11.

for Brent East the right-wingers would put up a candidate against me

:38:12.:38:14.

and I didn't object to that. If you look at America, everyone from the

:38:15.:38:20.

President down to small-time mayor are up for reselection in every

:38:21.:38:26.

election, it's about democracy. Jeremy has made it quite clear he

:38:27.:38:30.

will not bring back automatic reselection because that would mean

:38:31.:38:33.

further schisms in the party. So you wouldn't want to see it? I

:38:34.:38:37.

personally would but if you look back, we introduced it in about 1980

:38:38.:38:43.

and carried on until Blair got in at only about five MPs wherever

:38:44.:38:46.

deselected. Do you have any optimism that the kind of civil war, or

:38:47.:38:51.

whatever it is, is going to ease? I think it will because there will be

:38:52.:38:56.

a large block of MPs in Labour who oppose Jeremy, who now recognise

:38:57.:39:00.

they have got Jeremy up to the next General Election and they will get

:39:01.:39:02.

behind him because they would rather see a Labour government and another

:39:03.:39:06.

five years of the Tories. The vast bulk will come on board but there

:39:07.:39:10.

will be some sitting around whining on the backbenches. What is your

:39:11.:39:13.

advice? How is Jeremy Corbyn going to win those kind of seats that

:39:14.:39:17.

ensures he forms a government? You cannot look me in the eye and say he

:39:18.:39:21.

is in that position now? Do you agree? We have the economic strategy

:39:22.:39:26.

that could work. Every time Labour lost a General Election is because

:39:27.:39:30.

people didn't think our economic policy was credible. Jeremy's is.

:39:31.:39:34.

It's the policy that many on the left have been arguing for four

:39:35.:39:38.

years. Massive investment. We are so run down as a country. Look at the

:39:39.:39:43.

state of our roads, our broadband is positively antique compare to what

:39:44.:39:47.

you've got in places like China and Hong Kong. Theresa, we cannot let

:39:48.:39:51.

you be a spectator any longer. The ideal time in chipping Barnett and

:39:52.:39:54.

across London and everywhere else to go for a snap election. Well, I

:39:55.:39:58.

don't think we should rush into a snap election, but I do think the

:39:59.:40:02.

Labour Party is in a disastrous state. They are massively divided.

:40:03.:40:08.

They are chaotic and incompetent. And just to hear Jeremy Corbyn on

:40:09.:40:14.

the BBC this morning talking about, oh well, the previous Labour

:40:15.:40:18.

government didn't spend too much, he just doesn't get the fact that you

:40:19.:40:24.

have to live within your means to run a healthy economy. You have to

:40:25.:40:28.

have helped the public finances to allow businesses to grow to deliver

:40:29.:40:32.

the economic stability we need for jobs. And if we can't do that then

:40:33.:40:37.

the NHS will suffer, our transport will suffer. The people who suffer

:40:38.:40:41.

most when people like Jeremy Corbyn get in charge of the public finances

:40:42.:40:45.

and messed them up, the people who suffer most are the most

:40:46.:40:48.

disadvantaged in our society. That you haven't added yet, we should

:40:49.:40:52.

never be complacent. We are absolutely not complacent because we

:40:53.:40:56.

know there are important things we need to change in this country, we

:40:57.:41:00.

need to make our transport system better. We need to ensure that it's

:41:01.:41:04.

a country that works for everyone, that everyone shares in the benefits

:41:05.:41:08.

of economic growth. But the reality is that it would be reckless and

:41:09.:41:12.

disastrous for this country if Labour became the next government.

:41:13.:41:17.

It would be chaos. Dying to come back on that, Ken, but you can pick

:41:18.:41:21.

up on it in the next section, if you like!

:41:22.:41:24.

Londoners have got very used to stories of tensions between City

:41:25.:41:27.

Remember the warmth between Mr Livingstone and Mr Brown?

:41:28.:41:30.

A few months into his mayoralty - and with his very big

:41:31.:41:34.

personal mandate - is Sadiq Khan an asset

:41:35.:41:36.

The story of Labour's Civil War has twists and turns worthy

:41:37.:41:47.

In a dramatic series finale, house Corbyn saw of its rivals

:41:48.:41:54.

In a dramatic series finale, house Corbyn saw off its rivals

:41:55.:41:57.

So what now for the man across the water in City Hall, Sadiq Khan?

:41:58.:42:01.

Arguably the most powerful Labour politician in the country.

:42:02.:42:04.

Once upon a time cover two were happy to pose

:42:05.:42:13.

Last year, Sadiq Khan even nominated Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership.

:42:14.:42:17.

But since then, there have been disagreements over everything

:42:18.:42:19.

from singing the national anthem to whether to campaign with

:42:20.:42:22.

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said it discredited

:42:23.:42:25.

And come this summer, Sadiq Khan support a change

:42:26.:42:30.

Owen Smith is the right leader for our party and why I think he's

:42:31.:42:35.

the best chance we've got to win the next election.

:42:36.:42:39.

It is smart of Sadiq to be this counterpoint to Corbyn,

:42:40.:42:42.

to say that "Corbyn can do his thing and get people into his rallies,

:42:43.:42:45.

but what I'm interested in is government, power,

:42:46.:42:47.

changing laws and making life better for people."

:42:48.:42:49.

All things that critics of the Labour leader

:42:50.:42:51.

That he is too focused on ideological purity,

:42:52.:42:54.

But since that wasn't the view of party members,

:42:55.:42:58.

His first move was to congratulate Corbyn on his victory.

:42:59.:43:04.

Here is Hammersmith MP Andy Slaughter, a friend

:43:05.:43:07.

I think he will bring the Labour Party down-to-earth

:43:08.:43:14.

and say it's hard work winning elections and it is even harder

:43:15.:43:17.

And he's done the first spectacularly and he's done a good

:43:18.:43:26.

job so far in his first 100 days setting out his programme,

:43:27.:43:29.

and he's got some solid achievements there, particularly

:43:30.:43:31.

And he's saying, this is what I'm doing, you should all

:43:32.:43:34.

But Corbyn supporters say that what Labour should actually be doing

:43:35.:43:39.

The Labour Party has twice said that they would like

:43:40.:43:43.

I think for some sections of the party, I think it's really

:43:44.:43:47.

time to internalise that reality and figure out how to work

:43:48.:43:51.

within it, but what we're seeing instead is this tendency to sort

:43:52.:43:54.

of cast around and look for other potential leaders, who would perhaps

:43:55.:43:57.

be better to lead the party, rather than to focus on the actual

:43:58.:44:00.

elected leader and how they might unite around him.

:44:01.:44:08.

A clue about how things are going to go could well come

:44:09.:44:12.

from the Labour conference this week and how the man uses his speech.

:44:13.:44:17.

from the Labour conference this week and how the Mayor uses his speech.

:44:18.:44:20.

Speculation is already one running high.

:44:21.:44:22.

I don't think Sadiq is going to cause too much mischief.

:44:23.:44:27.

I would be surprised if he mentions Corbyn more than a few times,

:44:28.:44:30.

But I think above all what he will do is use that as a message,

:44:31.:44:35.

sorry, as a platform, to present himself as a rival future leader.

:44:36.:44:38.

I think Sadiq is basically going to use the next nine years,

:44:39.:44:41.

between now and 2025, to present himself as an alternative

:44:42.:44:43.

leader for Labour who could actually become Prime Minister and take back

:44:44.:44:46.

control of that place over there, the House of Commons.

:44:47.:44:49.

Before getting too carried away with the idea of two warring clans,

:44:50.:44:52.

it's worth remembering that Sadiq Khan has never said he wants

:44:53.:44:54.

The idea of a clash between two rival powers could turn out to be

:44:55.:45:00.

more of a fantasy story than a reality.

:45:01.:45:03.

We could of course be jumping the gun a little. But what harm in that?

:45:04.:45:10.

What do you say about the election result going back to May? Was down

:45:11.:45:16.

to Sadiq Khan's unique gifts, or down to Jeremy Corbyn and Jeremy

:45:17.:45:21.

Corbyn's Labour that he won? Both coming together. Which was more

:45:22.:45:27.

important? I think it was the fact that amongst Londoners it was a

:45:28.:45:30.

rejection of an unpleasant Tory campaign smearing Sadiq Khan as a

:45:31.:45:34.

terrorist sympathiser. People were not going to do that, Londoners are

:45:35.:45:39.

not stupid, they knew that Muslims and terrorists are not synonymous

:45:40.:45:43.

and it was an unpleasant campaign. Jeremy threw everything behind

:45:44.:45:47.

getting him elected. If you look at the result, he was only 1% less than

:45:48.:45:52.

when I won in 2000, the best result we had anywhere in the country.

:45:53.:45:58.

He didn't campaign with Jeremy Corbyn much during the campaign. We

:45:59.:46:07.

see things like Corbyn purge could destroy the country and, you have to

:46:08.:46:15.

win elections before you achieve anything. I think Sadiq Khan should

:46:16.:46:21.

not be undermining Jeremy Hunt that way. He's nowhere near as bad as

:46:22.:46:24.

some of the MPs in terms of what he's saying. If you look at the

:46:25.:46:28.

problems I had with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, I was expelled from

:46:29.:46:32.

the Labour Party and Lord Browne didn't speak to me until he became

:46:33.:46:36.

Prime Minister. I think if we saw a Labour government, Sadiq Khan and

:46:37.:46:41.

Jeremy would get on fine with a major programme of investment,

:46:42.:46:45.

building new council houses on things like that, and Jeremy knows

:46:46.:46:49.

that. But do you think it is undermining Jeremy? It is a bit, but

:46:50.:46:54.

Jeremy Paris been re-elected, everyone including Sadiq have to put

:46:55.:46:58.

that behind them and we have to focus on explaining to people how we

:46:59.:47:03.

can do better, grow the economy. Germany export five times what we do

:47:04.:47:10.

to China. They have never allowed their banks to dictate the economy.

:47:11.:47:15.

They have modernised... We have allowed hours to die out. Frankly I

:47:16.:47:26.

wouldn't have got involved when I was Mayor of London in internal

:47:27.:47:29.

party conflicts like that because you've got to work with whoever wins

:47:30.:47:32.

and you don't want to do anything to damage your relationship with them.

:47:33.:47:38.

He called for your suspension over those remarks at the time, which we

:47:39.:47:45.

don't have to rehearse. He was probably misled. If you look at the

:47:46.:47:51.

home affairs select it says in the statement... If I had said that, I

:47:52.:47:57.

would have apologise, but I didn't say that. The fact that he chose

:47:58.:48:02.

that opportunity to say you should be suspended straightaway and you

:48:03.:48:04.

were someone who had backed him to be mayor? What was interesting, the

:48:05.:48:09.

people backing Jeremy Campbell 90% of them were voting for Sadiq and

:48:10.:48:16.

vice versa. They were both seen as good candidates with an alternative

:48:17.:48:20.

to the Blair years and I think Sadiq should put that behind them now and

:48:21.:48:26.

work with Jeremy. If we can elect a Labour government, Sadiq will get

:48:27.:48:28.

billions of pounds for investment in London. The discussion we have is

:48:29.:48:34.

all about the labour mayoral figure, but how disappointed are you with

:48:35.:48:39.

that result? I was obviously hugely disappointed that Zac Goldsmith did

:48:40.:48:42.

not win the election, I think he would have been a great mayor, but

:48:43.:48:49.

the government will try to work constructively with Sadiq on matters

:48:50.:48:54.

important to all Londoners. Ken Livingstone mentions the negative

:48:55.:48:58.

nature of the campaign, widely perceived? The questions were asked

:48:59.:49:02.

and Sadiq has answered them in terms of being elected and we need to move

:49:03.:49:07.

on from that and work constructively together. It was a bit more than

:49:08.:49:13.

that. The vast majority of the campaign was about issues of concern

:49:14.:49:16.

to Londoners, how much they pay in council tax, the transport system,

:49:17.:49:23.

policing. There was discussion at the end about people with whom Sadiq

:49:24.:49:29.

had shared a platform but that was elected and he won, so we move on.

:49:30.:49:33.

You say you want to see a constructive relationship between

:49:34.:49:38.

the government and the mayor, but at the same time, you want to make

:49:39.:49:42.

things difficult for him because he is a Labour mayor? We will certainly

:49:43.:49:47.

hold him to account. This idea of a big difference between him and

:49:48.:49:51.

Jeremy Corbyn is overplayed, frankly. What they have in common is

:49:52.:49:54.

that they both want to carry on borrowing forever and they want to

:49:55.:49:58.

raise taxes. I believe Labour in power in this country would be

:49:59.:50:03.

severely damaging to jobs and economic stability. They are

:50:04.:50:07.

different but what unites them is the not balancing the books. The

:50:08.:50:24.

simple fact is that John McDonnell, every budget he produced was

:50:25.:50:29.

balanced and there was not a penny of borrowing for revenue. Every

:50:30.:50:34.

government, they have all borrowed. The simple fact is, with the

:50:35.:50:39.

exception of two years under Nigella Lawson, Tory governments have

:50:40.:50:45.

borrowed 2% to 3% of GDP to balance their budget. Before we start

:50:46.:50:53.

heading into that macroeconomic, let's move on a bit.

:50:54.:50:58.

We've entered a fresh phase in Ukip's life

:50:59.:51:02.

with Nigel Farage stepping down and a new leader,

:51:03.:51:04.

another MEP, Diane James, taking hold of the reins.

:51:05.:51:06.

She describes those in favour of staying

:51:07.:51:08.

60% of Londoners voted to remain, everyone acknowledges that figure.

:51:09.:51:15.

My use of the term Remainiacs was to refer to the absolutely small

:51:16.:51:18.

core that just want to completely ignore the outcome of

:51:19.:51:20.

Should the 1 million Londoners, people working here but who come

:51:21.:51:27.

from other EU member states, have anything to fear from Ukip

:51:28.:51:30.

Right the way through the referendum campaign, Ukip made the point,

:51:31.:51:42.

we were not looking at mass expulsion, from either

:51:43.:51:45.

the United Kingdom back to Europe or expecting our member state

:51:46.:51:47.

counterparts in Europe to reciprocate and expel people.

:51:48.:51:49.

That is not what grown-up countries do.

:51:50.:51:54.

So there is no risk, no threat at all from Ukip.

:51:55.:51:56.

If anything, there is a risk and a threat coming from this

:51:57.:51:59.

current government, that is yet to come off the fence

:52:00.:52:04.

and actually straightforwardly set out that individuals

:52:05.:52:06.

from European Union states who are here lawfully

:52:07.:52:08.

and legally are here to stay and can enjoy being a member

:52:09.:52:11.

and contribute to the fabric of United Kingdom's society.

:52:12.:52:17.

A new face, a new town. New danger? I think Ukip are sort of struggling

:52:18.:52:27.

to find a role for themselves. They are more divided than the Labour

:52:28.:52:32.

Party but more importantly a lot of their supporters are rejoining the

:52:33.:52:38.

Conservatives, because we gave the country the choice of whether to be

:52:39.:52:42.

in the EU and now we've voted to leave, that significantly undermines

:52:43.:52:46.

the point of Ukip. Do they still represent a danger to Labour in

:52:47.:52:51.

particular in northern areas? Wanting to get back the east of

:52:52.:52:56.

London, Kent and so on? There are a lot of traditional working class

:52:57.:53:04.

areas where people felt a Labour government... In Scotland they voted

:53:05.:53:08.

SNP, in the north they voted for Ukip. We have to show these people

:53:09.:53:13.

that we can get homes for them to rent or buy and we can give good

:53:14.:53:21.

education for their children. Theresa May asked a dozen times may

:53:22.:53:25.

be to come out and stand up and be more part of supporting David

:53:26.:53:30.

Cameron. A secret Brexiteer, do you think? Was she on your side,

:53:31.:53:36.

privately, maybe? There were times when I did wonder! Her speech in the

:53:37.:53:45.

referendum campaign expressed real concerns about the possibility of

:53:46.:53:49.

Turkey joining the EU and it also said that the sky is not going to

:53:50.:53:53.

fall in if we leave. There were certain pointers in it which I think

:53:54.:53:57.

were a lot more pragmatic and down-to-earth than what some of the

:53:58.:54:00.

other Remainers were saying. I think she was genuinely listening to both

:54:01.:54:06.

sides. Do you think she had an idea that she would be challenging for

:54:07.:54:12.

the leadership and all that? I think despite all the acres of newsprint

:54:13.:54:16.

to the contrary, this was a defining issue for us in all parts of the

:54:17.:54:20.

political spectrum. We had to decide, did we want to be an

:54:21.:54:23.

independent self-governing country again? What about her and her

:54:24.:54:28.

position? She was not out there fighting tooth and nail with George

:54:29.:54:33.

Osborne and David Cameron and so on. She took a side and made a decision.

:54:34.:54:38.

She's always been strongly in favour of the security co-operation that

:54:39.:54:43.

comes with being in the EU, I think. Budgie also recognised that there

:54:44.:54:47.

were credible arguments on both sides and I think that was

:54:48.:54:52.

represented in how she approached the referendum campaign.

:54:53.:54:55.

Now the rest of the week's political news in 60 seconds.

:54:56.:55:02.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan has asked the MP for Barking,

:55:03.:55:07.

Margaret Hodge, to chair a review of the Garden Bridge project.

:55:08.:55:10.

Ms Hodge will examine whether value for money has been achieved

:55:11.:55:13.

from the taxpayer's ?60 million contribution to the bridge.

:55:14.:55:15.

The mayor has said no more taxpayer money should be spent on the bridge.

:55:16.:55:18.

A compulsory purchase order to make residents of a London

:55:19.:55:21.

council estate sell their flats, ahead of a regeneration

:55:22.:55:23.

Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Sajid Javid,

:55:24.:55:26.

told Southwark Council it had not done enough to protect Aylesbury

:55:27.:55:30.

estate residents, arguing that the residents would not be able

:55:31.:55:32.

to stay on the estate or live nearby.

:55:33.:55:39.

Sadiq Khan has called for London to get New York-style powers over

:55:40.:55:42.

taxes and public services, following his five-day

:55:43.:55:44.

tour of North America, urging the Government to devolve

:55:45.:55:47.

more responsibility to City Hall over areas including transport,

:55:48.:55:55.

Going ahead with the Garden Bridge, it is not to latest grab this? I

:55:56.:56:11.

have to say, I'm not an enthusiast for the garden bridge. If it's going

:56:12.:56:14.

to happen, I don't think there should be more public money poured

:56:15.:56:18.

into it. It was always an idea as something promoted as something that

:56:19.:56:22.

would be built and funded by the private sector. It has to be that,

:56:23.:56:26.

doesn't it? I know there is a certain amount of money committed to

:56:27.:56:31.

it already and I'm reluctant to see that, to be honest, but I don't want

:56:32.:56:37.

to see any more spent on it. Labour were saying we want to build this

:56:38.:56:41.

garden bridge, all the money would be raised by the private sector,

:56:42.:56:45.

they didn't ask me for a penny. Now they're talking about ?60 million

:56:46.:56:49.

going into it. If you've got that sort of money, that are much more

:56:50.:56:55.

important areas to build a bridge, like parts of East London where

:56:56.:56:59.

there aren't any bridges. I would say, if you want to build it, that's

:57:00.:57:04.

fine, but don't come to me or TEFL or that money because it can be

:57:05.:57:08.

better spent elsewhere. It looks like she's a bit cold on northern

:57:09.:57:12.

devolution and all that stuff? I think if we devolve in London, we

:57:13.:57:18.

should devolve to the borough 's. They are closest to local

:57:19.:57:20.

communities. Sometimes devolution in London seems to involve a withdrawal

:57:21.:57:25.

of powers from the borough is to the mayor. Absolutely dissolve

:57:26.:57:29.

everything. We are the most centralised of all the Western

:57:30.:57:41.

democracies. I was explaining to a Russian politician about the system

:57:42.:57:50.

and he said it is worse than under Stalin!

:57:51.:58:06.

Welcome back - and we're joined now by John Prescott, who's been coming

:58:07.:58:09.

to Labour Conferences for more than 50 years.

:58:10.:58:10.

And our political panel, Tom Newton-Dunn, Rachel Shabi

:58:11.:58:12.

John Prescott, welcome back to the Sunday Politics and a Labour

:58:13.:58:19.

conference. In a much changed Liverpool! I can't believe it. That

:58:20.:58:27.

looks amazing. Has the Labour Party ever been at a low ahead in the past

:58:28.:58:34.

50 is? It's an interesting question. I hear everyone going back 50 years

:58:35.:58:38.

but we've always had fierce battles in the Labour Party, whether it was

:58:39.:58:43.

nuclear or the left or the right, we used to fight over the Treasurer's

:58:44.:58:48.

vote! There have always been those strong battles. It has become more

:58:49.:58:53.

personal now, it is more abuse than argument and we've got to move away

:58:54.:58:57.

from that. Do you share the fears of your old colleague Neil Kinnock,

:58:58.:59:03.

that there might not be another Labour government in his lifetime?

:59:04.:59:07.

Who was that? Neil Kinnock, former leader of the Labour Party? When I

:59:08.:59:15.

heard him saying there will never be another Labour government in his

:59:16.:59:19.

lifetime... Basically, Neil, you did lose to elections and Michael foot

:59:20.:59:25.

lost that election. We lost with Ed Miliband... There is no doubt he's

:59:26.:59:30.

got great experience of that but he is wrong! I thought we would get to

:59:31.:59:36.

the answer! Is the Labour Party at a very low ebb? It is, but I think

:59:37.:59:40.

you're absolutely right, it is a great myth that in the past there

:59:41.:59:45.

weren't huge, passionate internal debates. Under Wilson's leadership,

:59:46.:59:52.

there were problems all over the place but he won for elections out

:59:53.:59:56.

of five, he always used to say. It has become much more personal now

:59:57.:59:59.

with the social media thing going on in that kind of raises it to a

:00:00.:00:02.

different temperature. If it was accepted they could argue

:00:03.:00:11.

over policy, as was in the past and as will be the case with the

:00:12.:00:14.

Conservatives over Brexit, then there might be a way of working

:00:15.:00:19.

around this. As things stand at the moment it is a completely

:00:20.:00:21.

nightmarish, circuitous debate where the MPs slack him off and his

:00:22.:00:25.

supporters slack them off and it gets nowhere. The danger for Labour

:00:26.:00:29.

is earlier in the programme we talked about elections to the NEC

:00:30.:00:33.

and who will hold the balance of power there and the battles coming

:00:34.:00:36.

of the argument over how to choose the Shadow Cabinet, Labour can't

:00:37.:00:39.

afford another year of talking about itself. No, that is right, and the

:00:40.:00:46.

public isn't remotely interested in these very tedious internal

:00:47.:00:49.

machinations. Look, Jeremy Corbyn has proved himself twice. There can

:00:50.:00:54.

be no clearer message that the party really needs to put this behind them

:00:55.:00:59.

and focus on unifying. I think the other great myth, we're talking

:01:00.:01:03.

about the myths of history and time and the centre-right. The myth is

:01:04.:01:07.

that they have all the answers. They clearly don't. They haven't been

:01:08.:01:11.

able to persuade their own selectors of their own eligibility and they

:01:12.:01:17.

haven't been able to persuade the general public that a right words

:01:18.:01:20.

shifting Labour Party is preferable and desirable. So maybe it's time

:01:21.:01:27.

for them to think, you know what, Jeremy Corbyn has won two leadership

:01:28.:01:32.

elections, he has caused the party to be swelled, its ranks swelled and

:01:33.:01:36.

it's the largest party in Europe and people are galvanised, motivated and

:01:37.:01:39.

energised in a way they haven't been for so long. People have been

:01:40.:01:43.

apathetic about politics for so long. May be that wing of the party

:01:44.:01:46.

has something to learn from Corbyn rather than the other way around. I

:01:47.:01:50.

couldn't get Heidi Alexander to answer this. Is there any doubt that

:01:51.:01:56.

Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour into the 2020 election? I think there is a

:01:57.:02:00.

small doubt. He could still be toppled. Who would topple him? The

:02:01.:02:06.

unions. This massive force in Labour politics, centre-left politics,

:02:07.:02:09.

which no one has come close to talking about in the last few days,

:02:10.:02:12.

we have a huge election coming up the after next for the Unite union.

:02:13.:02:21.

Len McCluskey is running again. If he stands down, they have already

:02:22.:02:25.

lost the GMB and Unison are not fond of him, if he does go it is curtains

:02:26.:02:31.

for him. It is about fundamental change taking place. Everyone of us

:02:32.:02:34.

has got to think differently, including me. They have all got to

:02:35.:02:39.

say for the party have said this with their new members, we have a

:02:40.:02:42.

different way of doing things and we want some of the old policies

:02:43.:02:46.

rehearsed and put forward again. The changes, whether in the PLP, the

:02:47.:02:50.

trade unions or elsewhere, things have changed, it's a big change

:02:51.:02:53.

coming to the Labour Party and thank God. I remember arguing with Tony

:02:54.:02:58.

Blair whether we should call it new Labour or old Labour and he wanted

:02:59.:03:01.

to call it new Labour and I said why don't we call it Labour. There is a

:03:02.:03:08.

change in policy, they want fundamental change, they are

:03:09.:03:12.

entitled to have it, he has won two elections, why do we think of the

:03:13.:03:15.

revolutionary thought, he is our leader until the next election, get

:03:16.:03:18.

on for the ride and fight the Tories instead of fighting ourselves. There

:03:19.:03:22.

is one really good answer to that, that is all well and good but you

:03:23.:03:27.

are 26% in the polls, an all-time historic low that is where Corbyn is

:03:28.:03:30.

taking them. All too often we talk about the polls. Terrible

:03:31.:03:39.

inconvenience! Let us go along this road, see how we can do it, the PLP,

:03:40.:03:44.

let's just for the argument is about the election of the Shadow Cabinet.

:03:45.:03:48.

The PLP voted against Shadow Cabinet is only two or three years ago and

:03:49.:03:52.

now it wants them back. Quite right, I support them, I've been party to

:03:53.:03:57.

them. For god sake, can get on with fighting the Tories, back the

:03:58.:04:01.

leadership for the moment? I have to say to Jeremy, talking about splits

:04:02.:04:06.

in part is, we have already wondering, Momentum crazy things,

:04:07.:04:17.

argue the case for change. Electoral College instead of one man, one

:04:18.:04:21.

vote. I've always fought for one man one vote. That would be going

:04:22.:04:26.

backwards, would it not? It would strengthen the PLP. We have to look

:04:27.:04:30.

at all of these fears and do a proper conference as I advocate, but

:04:31.:04:36.

think about it first. We have ?3 members at Miliband came through and

:04:37.:04:39.

whacked that through special conference. We need to think about

:04:40.:04:43.

how we've done things in the past, trade unions, members of Parliament,

:04:44.:04:48.

PLP members, they want change, they are entitled democratically to see

:04:49.:04:52.

if we will listen to them at implement it democratically. Jeremy

:04:53.:04:55.

must show leadership. What does showing leadership mean? There are

:04:56.:05:01.

two things. The election of a Shadow Cabinet if you want to do that.

:05:02.:05:05.

Elected by whom? That could be the PLP to begin with. We can't wait

:05:06.:05:12.

until the conference comes along, 11th of October. These things are

:05:13.:05:14.

constitutional. In the coming elections he is the leader, he could

:05:15.:05:23.

put in people he feels he has to have their in the Shadow Cabinet,

:05:24.:05:27.

because it's all about power distribution, and give the PLP the

:05:28.:05:31.

right to put some people in and then look at the issues of whether other

:05:32.:05:34.

members should be involved. That's the long-term. At the moment a team

:05:35.:05:39.

ready for fighting Theresa May, she will be worse than Thatcher. We are

:05:40.:05:44.

here in the great traditional Labour city, the heartland of traditional

:05:45.:05:48.

Labour support. Does anybody in Liverpool care how the Shadow

:05:49.:05:52.

Cabinet is selected? I doubt meet people just outside this building

:05:53.:05:56.

are talking about that. They will be because they are journalists! I

:05:57.:06:01.

don't even think they will be! In a way we are contradicting ourselves

:06:02.:06:04.

because we are saying we should not spend time talking about it and we

:06:05.:06:08.

are all talking about it. The so-called rebels misjudged this

:06:09.:06:11.

completely in terms of timing, when they all resigned on the Sunday

:06:12.:06:14.

after the referendum, they didn't ask, do we have a candidate? What

:06:15.:06:18.

happens if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't go as a result of this and have they

:06:19.:06:22.

got themes that can unite the rest of the membership, or a new

:06:23.:06:31.

membership could to? We keep talking about the voters. Let's not talk

:06:32.:06:35.

about the Shadow Cabinet because that is an insider conversation.

:06:36.:06:39.

About the voters, we don't know whether Jeremy Corbyn is electable

:06:40.:06:43.

or not. We don't know how he would fare with a united team behind him

:06:44.:06:50.

with over 500,000 members canvassing, campaigning, talking

:06:51.:06:55.

about his policies. We don't know if for this time, in a time when we are

:06:56.:06:59.

dealing with massive inequalities, when we're dealing with rampant...

:07:00.:07:04.

Just, food banks, child poverty and things that should not happen in one

:07:05.:07:07.

of the wealthiest countries in the world. We don't know whether what

:07:08.:07:11.

the Labour Party proposes under Jeremy Corbyn will resonate. We will

:07:12.:07:15.

have a chance to find out. One of the things that is interesting is

:07:16.:07:17.

that clearly the membership of the party has changed dramatically, even

:07:18.:07:22.

in the past 12 months. Will the Parliamentary party change as a

:07:23.:07:26.

result of that? There has been talk of the and reselection. This is what

:07:27.:07:29.

Mr Corbyn had to say this morning. The relationship

:07:30.:07:36.

between an MP and their It's not necessarily

:07:37.:07:39.

all the policy tick It's also the relationships,

:07:40.:07:41.

the community, the effectiveness of representation

:07:42.:07:44.

and all those issues. Let's have a democratic discussion

:07:45.:07:45.

and I think the vast majority of MPs will have

:07:46.:07:48.

no problem whatsoever. Is it's not inevitable, given that

:07:49.:07:59.

you've talked about it yourself, this huge change taking place in the

:08:00.:08:03.

Labour Party membership, that the Parliamentary party will have to

:08:04.:08:08.

change to reflect that? To some extent the PLP is the creation of

:08:09.:08:12.

the previous membership, not the new membership. That is right. Some

:08:13.:08:16.

people were opposing him within weeks when he was elected and

:08:17.:08:19.

pulling out of the cabinet and I don't think they will change. They

:08:20.:08:23.

might want to stay on the backbenches, they don't want to

:08:24.:08:26.

divide the party so they will fight for the party from the backbenches.

:08:27.:08:30.

The greater majority of those in the PLP they didn't want to go on this

:08:31.:08:34.

road of no confidence, that was one when they were kidded into believing

:08:35.:08:37.

that if they had a begin of no confidence he would pick of the

:08:38.:08:40.

revolver and shoot himself. It never was going to happen. So let's say,

:08:41.:08:45.

keep your view, if you don't want to get involved, fine, but now you are

:08:46.:08:53.

required to take account, looking at the policy issues between us rather

:08:54.:09:00.

than fighting ourselves. He has got to show leadership. He is the man in

:09:01.:09:04.

charge of it. That's why the election of the Capanagh has become

:09:05.:09:08.

more important inside the PLP. It's a struggle, isn't it? The PLP

:09:09.:09:13.

produced a whole package of things with electoral reform. Let's get on

:09:14.:09:16.

with that, put it on the side, get a team ready for October the 11th to

:09:17.:09:21.

fight the Tories are using our energy and fighting the Tories and I

:09:22.:09:24.

think the majority of MPs are on board for that. Will Rachel get to

:09:25.:09:29.

see her united Labour Party behind Mr Corbyn going into another

:09:30.:09:34.

election? No. This is it. We have to look at the facts on the table, the

:09:35.:09:39.

Labour Party, the PLP and the people in the country, those people who

:09:40.:09:42.

voted for Owen Smith, they are so far apart ideologically, the hard

:09:43.:09:46.

left and there is the Blairite right and those two will never unite and

:09:47.:09:51.

it's all very well John saying so and I admire your optimism but you

:09:52.:09:54.

and I know it will not happen. It has got to for our people. The party

:09:55.:10:00.

and our country wants it. If your press get onside instead of being so

:10:01.:10:03.

vicious about Corbyn, not just your paper, but most of them have had a

:10:04.:10:07.

kind of hostility that has not been seen before. It has taken ten

:10:08.:10:13.

minutes but eventually we got there. Perhaps we will wait and see. The

:10:14.:10:22.

ideological gap is as big as the 80s, partly because on both sides

:10:23.:10:26.

there is a complete lack of clarity about what they believe in and where

:10:27.:10:30.

they want to go. The early 80s, Roy Jenkins knew exactly what there were

:10:31.:10:36.

four and so did Tony Benn. There is that clarity of vision now. It is

:10:37.:10:40.

all blurred and muddled so there is a problem and an opportunity there.

:10:41.:10:45.

Second, I think the crunch point in this Parliament for Jeremy Corbyn,

:10:46.:10:49.

not now obviously, but if and when the Tories have a crisis over Brexit

:10:50.:10:56.

and if at that point Labour are 25, 20 6% in the polls he will have a

:10:57.:11:01.

crisis. Let me interrupt you because the really big political event

:11:02.:11:05.

yesterday wasn't what was happening here in Liverpool, it happened on

:11:06.:11:10.

BBC One on your TV screens. It was Ed Balls in Strictly. Let's see how

:11:11.:11:13.

that went. Dancing the waltz,

:11:14.:11:16.

Ed Balls and Katya Jones. There we go, glitter balls on

:11:17.:11:44.

strictly. I bet you wish you had been there. I turned it down some

:11:45.:11:51.

time ago. So did I! What was the woman who did it? Edwina. BBC

:11:52.:11:58.

journalists, the public like people like that and supported in many ways

:11:59.:12:01.

but they fall out because they can't dance. That is a drawback. They love

:12:02.:12:07.

them for not dancing, they love the fact they are trying. But they

:12:08.:12:13.

didn't win. I love dancing myself, but frankly you've got to have some

:12:14.:12:17.

movement. There has got to be a flow in the body and the feel of the

:12:18.:12:21.

music. I think you've got it there! You want to do it, I can tell!

:12:22.:12:28.

Doesn't he? He wants to do it. That is not dancing, it's about the

:12:29.:12:34.

movement of the body, the music and the spirit. You should be a judge on

:12:35.:12:41.

the programme. I give it eight! Today talking about Jeremy Corbyn,

:12:42.:12:48.

they love this, it humanises it. You can see a petition to get him on. I

:12:49.:12:55.

can see it happening. We may have to speak to compliance about it!

:12:56.:13:00.

Anyway, it has become a part of the Constitution that you and I have to

:13:01.:13:04.

meet at a Labour conference, so it's good to see you. Two comedians

:13:05.:13:09.

together. One day we might get a proper job!

:13:10.:13:10.

I'll be back next week at the Conservative Party

:13:11.:13:15.

Conference in Birmingham with more Sunday Politics.

:13:16.:13:17.

And I'll be back tomorrow with the Daily Politics at 11am

:13:18.:13:19.

over on BBC Two with more from the Labour Conference

:13:20.:13:22.

We will bring you what is happening in the Labour conference and the

:13:23.:13:28.

Shadow Chancellor's speech too. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:29.:13:31.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:32.:13:36.

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