29/01/2017 Sunday Politics


29/01/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The political panel consists of Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:11.:01:14.

mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.

:01:15.:01:16.

The President says "it's working out very nicely"

:01:17.:01:18.

After getting too close to comfort for some to the US President,

:01:19.:01:22.

Theresa May refuses to condemn his refugee ban despite being asked

:01:23.:01:25.

about it three times at a press conference.

:01:26.:01:27.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:28.:01:29.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:30.:01:31.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:32.:01:34.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:35.:01:37.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:38.:01:39.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:40.:01:41.

And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:42.:01:43.

panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:44.:01:45.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:46.:01:47.

It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:48.:01:50.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:51.:01:53.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:54.:01:59.

Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:02:00.:02:02.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:02:03.:02:07.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:08.:02:09.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

:02:10.:02:15.

Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:16.:02:18.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:19.:02:27.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:28.:02:29.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:30.:02:33.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:34.:02:39.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:40.:02:44.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:45.:02:46.

The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:47.:02:52.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:53.:02:55.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:56.:02:58.

Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:59.:03:12.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:13.:03:15.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:16.:03:18.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:19.:03:23.

She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:24.:03:28.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:29.:03:32.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:33.:03:35.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:36.:03:39.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:40.:03:42.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:43.:03:45.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:46.:03:48.

The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:49.:03:51.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:52.:03:54.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:55.:04:06.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:07.:04:15.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:16.:04:19.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:20.:04:23.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:24.:04:29.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:30.:04:34.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:35.:04:40.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:41.:04:44.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:45.:04:48.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:49.:04:54.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:55.:04:57.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:58.:05:00.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:05:01.:05:04.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:05.:05:09.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:10.:05:12.

wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:13.:05:16.

moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:17.:05:22.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:23.:05:25.

hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:26.:05:33.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:34.:05:37.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:38.:05:40.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

:05:41.:05:43.

have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:44.:05:46.

Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:47.:05:49.

understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:50.:05:53.

the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:54.:05:57.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

:05:58.:06:01.

temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:06:02.:06:07.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:08.:06:13.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

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temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

:06:18.:06:23.

wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

:06:24.:06:27.

and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

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It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

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arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:36.:06:40.

been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

:06:41.:06:45.

I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:46.:06:49.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:50.:07:02.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:07:03.:07:08.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:09.:07:12.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:13.:07:15.

this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

:07:16.:07:19.

because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:20.:07:22.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

:07:23.:07:26.

you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:27.:07:33.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:34.:07:36.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:37.:07:40.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:41.:07:43.

country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:44.:07:49.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:50.:07:53.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:54.:07:57.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:07:58.:08:01.

should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:08:02.:08:04.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:05.:08:11.

Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:12.:08:13.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:14.:08:18.

believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:19.:08:24.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:25.:08:28.

number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:29.:08:31.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:32.:08:34.

of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:35.:08:40.

where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:41.:08:43.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

:08:44.:08:53.

Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:54.:08:59.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:09:00.:09:03.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:04.:09:08.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:09.:09:14.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:15.:09:18.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:19.:09:24.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:25.:09:29.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:30.:09:37.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:38.:09:41.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:42.:09:46.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:47.:09:49.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:50.:09:52.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:53.:09:58.

does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:59.:10:03.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:04.:10:06.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:07.:10:11.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:12.:10:16.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:17.:10:19.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:20.:10:25.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:26.:10:29.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:30.:10:33.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:34.:10:40.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:41.:10:43.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:44.:10:48.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:49.:10:53.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:54.:10:59.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:11:00.:11:03.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:04.:11:06.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:07.:11:14.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:15.:11:18.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:19.:11:23.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:24.:11:26.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:27.:11:29.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:30.:11:39.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:40.:11:45.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:46.:11:49.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

:11:50.:11:55.

with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:56.:11:59.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:12:00.:12:05.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:06.:12:10.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:11.:12:15.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:16.:12:20.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:21.:12:24.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:25.:12:30.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:31.:12:34.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:35.:12:38.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:39.:12:42.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:43.:12:47.

something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:48.:12:51.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:52.:12:55.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:56.:13:00.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:13:01.:13:05.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:06.:13:07.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:08.:13:11.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:12.:13:15.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:16.:13:19.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:20.:13:24.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:25.:13:28.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:29.:13:32.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:33.:13:36.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:37.:13:39.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:40.:13:46.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:47.:13:48.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:49.:13:52.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:53.:13:54.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:55.:13:57.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:58.:13:59.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:14:00.:14:02.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:14:03.:14:04.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:05.:14:06.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:07.:14:08.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:09.:14:12.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:13.:14:15.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:16.:14:24.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:25.:14:27.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:28.:14:31.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:32.:14:37.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:38.:14:38.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:39.:14:43.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:44.:14:48.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:49.:14:51.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:52.:14:53.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:54.:14:59.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:15:00.:15:01.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:15:02.:15:04.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:05.:15:07.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:08.:15:23.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:24.:15:28.

United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:29.:15:32.

appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:33.:15:36.

was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:37.:15:40.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:41.:15:48.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:49.:15:54.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:55.:16:00.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:16:01.:16:03.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:04.:16:10.

look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:11.:16:13.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:14.:16:19.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:20.:16:23.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:24.:16:27.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:28.:16:32.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:33.:16:37.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:38.:16:41.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:42.:16:45.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:46.:16:49.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:50.:16:56.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:57.:17:04.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:05.:17:08.

comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:09.:17:12.

policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:13.:17:17.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:18.:17:20.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:21.:17:30.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:31.:17:35.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:36.:17:39.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:40.:17:44.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:45.:17:48.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:49.:17:52.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:53.:17:57.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:58.:18:01.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:18:02.:18:06.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:07.:18:11.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:12.:18:14.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:15.:18:25.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:26.:18:32.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:33.:18:36.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:37.:18:39.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:40.:18:46.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:47.:18:49.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:50.:18:55.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:56.:19:00.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:19:01.:19:05.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:06.:19:08.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:09.:19:14.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:15.:19:18.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:19.:19:22.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:23.:19:25.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:26.:19:29.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:30.:19:34.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:35.:19:41.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:42.:19:45.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:46.:19:49.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:50.:19:54.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:55.:19:58.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:59.:20:05.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:06.:20:11.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:12.:20:17.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:18.:20:21.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:22.:20:25.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:26.:20:30.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:31.:20:34.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:35.:20:38.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:39.:20:42.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:43.:20:48.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:49.:20:53.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:54.:20:57.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:58.:21:02.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:21:03.:21:06.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:07.:21:11.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:12.:21:16.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:17.:21:19.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:20.:21:23.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:24.:21:27.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:28.:21:32.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:33.:21:38.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:39.:21:43.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:44.:21:46.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:47.:21:54.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:55.:21:57.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:58.:22:02.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:22:03.:22:06.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:07.:22:11.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:12.:22:13.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:14.:22:21.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:22.:22:24.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:25.:22:29.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:30.:22:32.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:33.:22:38.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:39.:22:40.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:41.:22:47.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:48.:22:52.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:53.:22:55.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:56.:23:01.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:23:02.:23:05.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:06.:23:11.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:12.:23:15.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:16.:23:20.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:21.:23:24.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:25.:23:27.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:28.:23:32.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:33.:23:37.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:38.:23:40.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:41.:23:44.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:45.:23:49.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:50.:23:54.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:55.:24:00.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:24:01.:24:03.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:04.:24:08.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:09.:24:13.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:14.:24:17.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:18.:24:20.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:21.:24:25.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:26.:24:30.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:31.:24:35.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:36.:24:39.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:40.:24:43.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:44.:24:50.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:51.:24:59.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:25:00.:25:03.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:04.:25:07.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:08.:25:13.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:14.:25:18.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:19.:25:23.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:24.:25:25.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:26.:25:26.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:27.:25:28.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:29.:25:31.

be talking to our political panel. Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:32.:40:35.

air-pollution. Thank you for being here.

:40:36.:40:41.

Welcome back and let's get back to Donald Trump's travel ban

:40:42.:40:45.

on refugees and citizens from seven mainly Muslim countries.

:40:46.:40:51.

Earlier, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state

:40:52.:40:54.

visit by President Trump to the UK should not go ahead

:40:55.:40:56.

I think it would be totally wrong for him to be coming here while that

:40:57.:41:09.

situation is going on. He has to be challenged on this. So until the ban

:41:10.:41:14.

is lifted, you don't think he should come? I am not happy about him

:41:15.:41:19.

coming here until the ban is lifted. Look at what is happening with those

:41:20.:41:23.

countries. What will be the long term effect of this on the rest of

:41:24.:41:28.

the world? Is this state visit going to become a matter of huge political

:41:29.:41:34.

debate in this country? It would be anyway, but it is a temporary ban,

:41:35.:41:37.

so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe territory. It will be over by April

:41:38.:41:41.

and he is not due to come until summer. But there are three bands.

:41:42.:41:46.

There is the 90 day ban on people coming from the southern countries.

:41:47.:41:51.

There is the 120 day ban on refugees from anywhere in the world, and

:41:52.:41:55.

there is the indefinite ban on Syrian refugees. So there may still

:41:56.:42:01.

be some bans in place. But bear in mind the number of Syrian refugees

:42:02.:42:05.

and refugees from around the world that President Obama took over his

:42:06.:42:08.

eight years. There were years when it was not even up to 50 Syrian

:42:09.:42:12.

refugees that were taken since the civil war has started. This is an

:42:13.:42:18.

ongoing American policy. 12,500 Syrian refugees have come in the

:42:19.:42:24.

last year. Before that, it was a hundred and sometimes under 50. But

:42:25.:42:32.

they are reasonable numbers now, although not something America

:42:33.:42:36.

couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is discovering that being a president

:42:37.:42:41.

is different from being a business man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn

:42:42.:42:45.

the art of leadership, having been a backbench MP, and has struggled to

:42:46.:42:49.

do it, as we are about to discuss with article 50. With this, you have

:42:50.:42:53.

to dramatise the politics of this, and this is what he has done with

:42:54.:42:58.

that statement. Most controversial ever state visit now? I would

:42:59.:43:03.

imagine so. Even regardless of any opposition from the opposition to

:43:04.:43:08.

trump's physical presence in the streets, the presence of

:43:09.:43:13.

demonstrators will be an international new story. If trump's

:43:14.:43:16.

demands for the details of the visit are quite as extreme and as picky as

:43:17.:43:20.

some of the Sunday papers have suggested, that could also be the

:43:21.:43:24.

source of controversy. What do you have in mind? Isn't he anxious that

:43:25.:43:29.

only certain members of the Royal Family turn up? He doesn't want a

:43:30.:43:33.

one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who would, though! Some people may be

:43:34.:43:42.

sympathetic on that. It is the one subject where he is in line with

:43:43.:43:45.

British opinion. Playing golf in front of the Queen may be a higher

:43:46.:43:51.

priority. We have to be realistic. Given the other people from around

:43:52.:43:53.

the world that the Queen has played host to, like the Chinese president

:43:54.:43:57.

and Saudi kings and the like, we have had a lot worse come to visit

:43:58.:44:02.

than Donald Trump. Brexit - how serious our neighbour's problems on

:44:03.:44:08.

this? Very serious, but they often are with Europe. Labour were splits

:44:09.:44:12.

when we joined in the 70s, and still won general elections, in 1974 and

:44:13.:44:18.

1975. There were all over the place in terms of the single currency.

:44:19.:44:21.

Blair said one thing one day and the opposite the next day. Brown did the

:44:22.:44:22.

same. Brown usually set the opposite of

:44:23.:44:36.

what Blair said! They won landslide because they have the political

:44:37.:44:40.

skills to put all of the pressure on the major government, even though

:44:41.:44:42.

their position on the single currency was the same as major's. It

:44:43.:44:47.

is about with Europe the art of leadership. You have to be a

:44:48.:44:53.

political conjuror, you have to dissemble authoritative leak when

:44:54.:44:57.

you lead a divided party over Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his

:44:58.:45:01.

personal credit cannot dissemble, but he's not an individual person on

:45:02.:45:06.

this. He's leading a split party in danger of falling apart, and you

:45:07.:45:11.

need the skills of a political conjurer. Clearly self-evidently

:45:12.:45:16.

he's not displaying it because we are talking about the chaotic split

:45:17.:45:19.

which will manifest itself in that vote on Article 50. Labour and the

:45:20.:45:23.

SNP and the Lib Dems too I would have thought will all put amendments

:45:24.:45:28.

down to the short Article 50 piece of legislation. Do they have any

:45:29.:45:35.

chance of succeeding? No substantial world is changing amendments. I

:45:36.:45:38.

don't think Theresa May has much to worry about actually. I think if

:45:39.:45:43.

anything the reason she's pushed the legal appeal is that it helps her to

:45:44.:45:47.

have a big chunk of the media and a big chunk of public opinion worrying

:45:48.:45:51.

that the popular will of last year is in danger of being overturned and

:45:52.:45:57.

so even if it was a completely hopeless legal appeal, it generated

:45:58.:46:02.

headlines for a week that as an incumbent Prime Minister trying to

:46:03.:46:05.

execute believe vote suits you politically. I think it is a much

:46:06.:46:09.

bigger problem for Labour, we've already seen some Shadow Cabinet

:46:10.:46:14.

issues in the previous week. You have got to remember it's not just a

:46:15.:46:17.

majority of Labour MPs that want to stay in the European Union, but a

:46:18.:46:24.

majority of Labour constituencies, and a majority of labour macro

:46:25.:46:28.

voters wanted to stay as well so we have three lines of division. One

:46:29.:46:32.

amendment that might get through if it was called, and it is in the

:46:33.:46:36.

hands of the Deputy speaker who will be chairing these debates, and that

:46:37.:46:40.

will be an amendment that said regardless of how the Europeans

:46:41.:46:44.

treat our citizens in Europe, all EU citizens here will be afforded full

:46:45.:46:49.

rights to remain. That might get through. It may indeed and lots of

:46:50.:46:57.

backbench MPs would backpack. We all know there will not be mass

:46:58.:47:02.

deportations, it is not legal, it won't happen, it is simply a

:47:03.:47:06.

negotiating tactic. I agree with those who say you shouldn't be using

:47:07.:47:10.

people as a negotiating tactic, but the reality as it is the EU leaders

:47:11.:47:15.

that are doing that because it's already been offered. The remain as

:47:16.:47:19.

should be attacking the EU governments for not offering that in

:47:20.:47:25.

return. Article 50 is the easy bit for her. I agree with other members

:47:26.:47:28.

of the panel that she will get it through and the court case almost

:47:29.:47:33.

helps her by getting an easy journey through Parliament, then it gets

:47:34.:47:36.

really difficult. All of this has been a preamble and once she begins

:47:37.:47:41.

that nightmarish negotiation, there will be opportunities for a smart

:47:42.:47:46.

opposition to make quite a lot of the turmoil to come. Whether Labour

:47:47.:47:53.

are capable of that, let's wait and see. The divisions in Labour are

:47:54.:47:59.

nightmarish for them but by no means unprecedented. Arguably it was much

:48:00.:48:03.

more complicated in the early 1970s when you had Titans on either side,

:48:04.:48:09.

big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony Benn... Michael Foot, they were all

:48:10.:48:17.

at it. The fundamental issue of in or out, and they won two elections,

:48:18.:48:23.

so you have got to be really clever. But also how money more Labour MPs

:48:24.:48:28.

will resign. We shall find out this week.

:48:29.:48:30.

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at midday and all

:48:31.:48:34.

I'll be back here on BBC one next week.

:48:35.:48:37.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:48:38.:48:43.