Brand New World Talking Business

Now on BBC News it's talking business.

In a world teeming with products and messages, how do

In this week's Talking Business, how big names survive in this

Welcome to the programme, I'm Tanya Beckett.

The explosion of media from Snapchat to Breitbart has fragmented

The days when half a country's population would watch or listen

to a programme or an event live at the same time, are gone.

So, how do big brands reach disparate consumers on such

And how do they remain relevant and inspire

Here to discuss it are three industry experts.

Johannes Smith is co-founder of the agency Hugo Cat,

which specialises in digital strategies for big-name brands.

Rita Clifton, CBE, is chairman of the consultancy BrandCap.

And, Dominique Delport is global managing director of marketing

and communications giant Havas media group.

Dominique, what happened of course in the last few years,

very obviously in your world is the rise of social

How has that changed the way people perceive brands

I think for the first time in history you've got that scale.

1 billion people connected to the same platform,

I think for the first time it reversed the mechanism,

Everyone is able to push comments, positive or negative,

So brands are not managing the conversation any more.

They need to look at what people say, because when they say it loud

it can destroy a reputation in a few days.

So you've got that complete inversion of that

I think brands understand that if they don't go

intimately to this platform, Snapchat is very

If you apply the same strategy, you fail.

So you need really to go in-depth into every platform and I'm not

talking about the Chinese platform or the Korean or Japanese,

so every country have developed its own way to integrate

services, brands, commerce, it's a brand New World.

So, Rita, if one were to summarise what Dominique is saying there,

first of all your brand can be very easily destroyed in social media

because what we call the democratisation of media,

meaning everybody is contributing to the media content and each

type of social media, each platform has its own way

of operating and it needs to be understood?

In the digital age, if people talk about sexy YouTube videos,

social media stance and everything else, but actually the killer

insight about that is you've got to be a really great business

So absolutely, we need to get into conversations.

Brands need to get into conversations.

But of course, you need to do something to get into those

conversations properly and also to earn trust.

Because in the digital age everything is visible,

What that means is that there's no big brands spending lots of money

on marketing communication, however smart, however beautiful

If they are not as good on the inside as they are

on the outside, people are going to find out and they're

going to find out really, really quickly with a scale

and a speed that will take your breath away.

Johannes, it suggests a little bit the type of brand you build and how

you build it is very affected by social media?

Absolutely and I think you can't script it any more,

you've got to listen to the audience and understand what people actually

want and what the emotional triggers are, what people respond to and then

build the brand around those emotional triggers.

That's how you build a great brand these days,

by really understanding the audience and really listening and building

But it has to be true, as Rita says, it has to actually resonate

So it's not really a case of going into a boardroom or sitting

in an ivory tower and drawing out a plan and that's it.

And it has to be a very responsive process,

is that what we are saying, Dominique?

Yes, and there is a big lack of trust now.

If we look at some surveys, 74% of brands could disappear overnight.

What do you mean, they could disappear?

People don't care, they could skip, there is such an oversupply

of brands, that people have a choice and they are very mature consumers.

They can go online, they can disrupt traditional retail,

so that really is a new empowered consumer that really

wants to understand, what is a trade-off?

That is a pivotal moment in brand marketing.

Advertising is good, it boosts the economic machine,

it creates jobs, there is a lot of positivity around that,

but on the other hand, you need transparency.

With the other thing that's very noticeable

is that if you have bought, for example, a pair of shoes,

or whatever it is that you've bought you notice you are on your computer

Johannes, or maybe Rita, does anybody know how an algorithm works?

I think that's a good question for Dominique, absolutely.

It's like cooking, you've got ingredients but you need a recipe

That's a very nice way of describing them.

We have got a scientist, mathematician expert who writes

algorithm like they can write poetry in a way.

You have to understand these big platforms, Google, Facebook,

Google page ranks all the websites, Facebook is edge ranked

with everyone on the same platform, but every profile and news feed

is different due to your choice, behaviours and taste.

So these mathematical environments enabled them automation.

What we have seen with the financial markets a few years ago is coming

So, instead of calling the BBC, calling the Mail or the Times to buy

some advertising space, now everything is

But when it gets it right it's great, but when it gets it wrong?

A pair of shoes have been following me around

for a very long time, I can assure you.

But I think what's really interesting and maybe an irony

about the loss of trust is that in this explosion of channels,

conversations and every thing else, it's never been more important

to find brands to be able to navigate to people you can trust.

Because actually, human beings aren't going to be able to stay

awake for long enough to read all the rubbish people

put on mobile sites, websites and everything else.

You need to be able to go to brands you trust and if you trust those

brands, you want to spend time with them and you will buy more

Every now and again, particularly when we have such

an extraordinary change in the digital world

where there is a consumer downturn, maybe, you read articles about,

is this twilight of the brands, is this death of the brands

because products and prices are now laid bare in the digital age.

The thing is, you've got to be able to find places you trust

That's why brands are really, really important.

What's really interesting there is, as you said, Dominique,

It is optimised dynamically as you go, but I think increasingly

what we are seeing is the whole experience is becoming

All interaction you have with the brand, not just advertising

but all the little experiences we have with the brands

are being optimised on-the-fly by looking at the data,

looking at what kind of customer you are,

looking at what you've done before and trying to give you the best

What's interesting is that people don't tend to

They said that they don't trust adverts, but they do want a valuable

exchange with the brand, they want relevant promotions

So they are willing to give up a little bit of data in return

for something and I think brands increasingly have to think about

So if they are going to harvest data and be clever about it,

they have to give something back and people are open to that.

They can give relevant promotions, they can understand what you've been

buying before and say, if you buy certain things,

we might be able to give you a little bit of a discount,

we might be able to optimise the experience for you,

Imagine you have kids with a food allergy,

you will really seek advice and tips for brands that understand

these kinds of allergies and can indicate what are good products

for the allergy and the right product for you.

So you need absolutely to have that kind of knowledge

I think brands need to provide more services, not just a product.

It is what we are studying and TV still is a phenomenal medium.

Something with Heathrow Airport, they did a TV advert with the two

bears and it has been incredibly successful because people want

emotion and the big TV screen is also, despite the digital

success, a phenomenal way to convey emotion

I think that's a really important point here.

It is so exciting what one can do these days in terms of automation

and terms of chromatic marketing and so on, it's very truly exciting.

and terms of programme marketing and so on,

But in the end sometimes some core principles still apply, don't they,

to building a brand in whatever age, you have to be clear

You have to be coherent about how that shows up

through everything you do, the whole experience.

You've got to make sure you keep on innovating and keep

You just happen to have lots of channels to do that and frankly,

if you are not doing it properly, there are endless ways

And what it is as well, it is an opportunity for brands

to innovate all this data, they can try things so much faster

They can launch new products, launch new services and if it

So, later in the programme we'll examine how brands

are creating challenges, education campaigns and media

content in the hope of converting us from fickle customers

But first our comedy consultant and man brand Colm O'Regan takes

In today's era of globalised business, countries just

like products and services, our brands themselves.

There was a time when images of Ireland were lazy,

stereotypes consisting mainly of drinking, fighting

Today Ireland is a far more contemporary image

What are the elements that go to make up our brand

as a country and I wonder, can I think of a snappy

The Irish and Brand Ireland is a huge entity and there's

Our focus is making sure the corporate world understands why

Ireland is a great place to do business.

It is a competition to win investment worldwide.

Often times, when our executives are walking into boardrooms to pitch

for certain bits of business, they are meeting their competitors

from other countries that they will make next week

in Paris, that they will meet next week in Singapore,

so Ireland as a brand, is being represented through the IDA

in all of those boardrooms and we are pitching hard

About 70% of the foreign investment that comes

Ireland now is some ominous with countries like Google,

Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, having their European

They are very powerful reference sells for us across the world.

When one company sees their competitor going

to the jurisdiction, they begin to ask questions,

But how do you create a strong national brand in a global context?

One industry that does that is the airline industry.

Aer Lingus is Ireland's national airline, having

Its mission then, to connect Ireland to the world.

Everybody knows us for warmth and friendliness.

However, when we go globally, that's extremely important and it's

But we need to do other things as well.

Ireland is marketed as a global business destination,

obviously a lot of big businesses are based here so we have to make

sure that for the business traveller we have a very good

We need to be very professional, most passengers like for us to be

on time, they like a punctual airline with the Aer Lingus unique

So that's it, Ireland, the small country but the global brand.

Now, to try and sum it up with a snappy description.

Maybe I could adapt an existing advertising slogan?

Clowns to the left of us, jokers to the right.

I still haven't found what I'm looking for.

Colm O'Regan, with his take on brand Ireland.

Colm O'Regan, with his take on Brand Ireland.

Remember, you can see more of his short films on our website.

Our guests are Dominique, Rita and Johannes and they are still

Rita, perhaps you could start us off with that, what does it mean

to be what we describe as a meaningful brand?

I think there are a number of different ways of describing it.

They are brands that are particularly relevant

I know that sounds completely obvious, but to be truly successful

you need to elevate it beyond relevance to people

rationally loving and promoting your brand too.

Apple is a classic example, it must be be overused

case study in the world, but people queue around the corner

If you think of those brands that have become almost

These are brands like Amazon, brands like John Lewis Partnership

in the UK, more broadly maybe brands like Facebook and Google.

These are brands that wrap themselves around

you and your lives, they can understand a lot about you.

You trust them to sort out some of your problems.

Yes, to go and find products for you, actually to be a gateway

into conversations with friends and family and so on.

And they simplify your life and navigate a lot of the stuff that

Dominique, your company has done a study of what I meaningful brand

Dominique, your company has done a study of what a meaningful brand

is and what is noticeable, is the words that come

at the top have a lot to do with organising your life,

As Rita said, we studied 350,000 consumers in 33 countries,

asking them what is a meaningful brand for you?

As I said, it is a personal feeling, perception, I want that brand

to make my life easier, I want great value for money,

I want innovation, but also I want an impact for my community.

My family, my neighbourhood, great employer, sustainability

practices, transparency, ethics, all of these components

And when we look at that, yes, Amazon, WhatsApp or PayPal,

when you look at Apple, Apple is not perceived

as a meaningful because it's too expensive.

So if you look in 33 countries, it still foreign elite,

For those people, it's a passion brand.

If you have the money for buying these products, of course,

And when we look at how these brands have performed

in the stock market, plus 206%, it is massive.

If you are relevant for your audience, then

Close to the heart, close to the wallets.

They are going to overspend with your brands...

Close to the heart, close to the wallet,

It is interesting, as I said, that these are lifestyle brands,

things that organise your life for you, but that might be just

a function of the fact that information technology has developed

I think it is to a larger extent and I think now that people interact

with brands in so many different ways, brands have to be much more

mindful about the entire experience they create with brands,

from the initial awareness where people interact and they search,

how people find brands, whether it is through

Right the way through to the interactions on the mobile app,

on the website, in the stores, the user interface, all of it

One little weakness in that chain ruins brand perception

because people expect these brands to just be extremely good

There is so much competition, it's so easy to change from one

brand to another now, you can just download

another app and move from one brand to another,

If you were to go onto site for socks, for socks, for example,

We are talking about something like 84, 85% of customers

are influenced in their purchases by the recommendations of friends.

People would tend to believe any of the consumers rather

than the corporation who's trying to sell.

So, at every stage of the research, the recommendation, the buying,

the review process, you can be hijacked.

You might be in pole position in people's minds,

but if they go online and they find out someone hates you

This is why the only remedy in this brand New World,

is you've got to be really, really good at what you do and your

staff and your people have got to believe in what you are doing,

they've got to build a consistent idea together they're prepared

to tell other people about and they need to make

people love you so much, they will go and tell other

That is the cheapest way to do marketing.

Dominique, I want to come back to what you said at the beginning.

There needs to be this lifestyle aspect to it.

In a way in needs to represent something more

to you than just the products itself, something about...

How do you transcend just being a brand?

More and more people expect from brands, they will produce more

content about the process, the components of the brand,

For instance, 71% of consumers expect brands to produce content

They want to know better, what's behind the stage.

This is one of the big areas for brands now,

Look at a platform like net flicks, there isn't one single advert. If

they blocked, brands have to think of another way. Companies often

advertise describing inexperience rather than the product itself?

Brands have to describe experience. It is very transparent and they

cannot create this image that is untrue. If we look at trust. It is

tapping into emotions and understanding customers and how to

respond to those emotions, whether it is creating entertainment. For an

example? Inside Out all these different emotions, it is joy, it

could be fear. Understanding where people might have moments of fear,

worried about identity theft and brands can respond to that and

reassure and build trust. One of the reasons I think Amazon was so

successful, it is an incredibly successful retailer that doesn't

have any shops, you don't talk to anybody. But it has content? It

absolutely has content. It understood people would be anxious

about logistics, getting their deliveries on time and securing

payment. They totally understood that and they were reliable for

delivering it. And that is how they started building of trust, because

they delivered. You have noticed that where you do have high street

shops, they have become a lifestyle experience. You go in and it is all

going on, plenty of show and tell, it is not just rails and shelves? A

lot of stores are not there to make money within the shop, they are

there to build brand perception and build experience and showcase what

the brand is about and showcased the connection with the story. You have

brands who have done very well through the recession from 2008

because they had a truthful story. The founder is passionate about the

product. Passionate about sport. That authenticity shines through.

But also the flow from online, it has to be able to sustain those.

Extraordinary brands manage the combination of stores, online. Using

catwalk shows to tweets to the world. Label was dying brand, now it

is a movie boosts sales. It is a store where experience is

everything. The seamless is important. Thank you very much to

all of you, Rita, Johannes and Dominique. Join us again next week

when we will be in Singapore discussing China's rising

imperialism. Goodbye. Good evening. The mild theme to the

weather continues. We saw temperatures as high as 15 degrees

across parts of Wales earlier. Not everywhere saw the sunshine. This

was