24/07/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


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Hello and good morning. The week began with resignations at Scotland


Yard, high drama in parliament and a Prime Minister rushing back from


Africa to face his critics. But the who did what to whom and when of


the phone hacking crisis has been put firmly into perspective by the


bloody events on an island off the coast of Norway. I am standing in


for Andrew this morning when we will ask why a young Norwegian man


felt the need to murder more than 90 of his fellow countrymen.


According to his lawyer, he thought it was "gruesome but necessary". As


well as going live to the island of Utoeya to hear the latest news of


the police operation, to find out whether the gunman was working


alone and how he had been planning the attack, we will be speaking to


the British foreign secretary about what the government is doing in


response to the tragedy. We will also be speaking to Sir Hugh Orde,


the President of the Association of Chief Police officers. With


continuing uncertainty about whether the latest bail-out for


Greece will get the euro-zone out of the woods, the business


secretary Vince Cable is here to tell us what it means for our own


economy. We last came about whether the strength of Rupert Murdoch's


empire is waning. We will talk to some distinguished


athletes ahead of the London Olympics, young and old. Review the


papers we have the former Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, the chief


of Time magazine, Catherine Meyer, and Rory Bremner. But first, the


news. The man accused of carrying out


Friday's mass shooting in Norway has admitted responsibility. The


lawyer representing 32 year-old Anders Behring Breivik says he is


describing his own actions as atrocious but necessary. 85 people


died when he opened fire in Utoeya, north-west of Oslo. After the


violence, the investigation into Anders Behring Breivik is widening.


It is centred on two areas, firstly this remote farm he was renting


where it is believed he built the bomb detonated in Oslo on Friday,


tearing through government buildings and killing at least


seven people. We are going through the whole farm for technical


evidence, looking for everything that could be connected to the late


incident. Police have found several tons of fertiliser at the farm,


which is a component in home-made bombs and explosives. After the


bomb went off, he drove to the island of Utoeya and murdered at


least 35 people. Locals were shocked that their seemingly


harmless neighbour could be harbouring such murderous plans so


nearby. It is very creepy because we have a child here, and he was


building bombs over there. We could have been hurt so it is not good.


The killer's lawyer says he has admitted responsibility for the


killings and will explain himself in court on Monday. TRANSLATION: He


has said he believes the actions were atrocious, but in his head


they were necessary. Away from the farm, the investigation is also


considering his writings and internet postings, particularly her


1500 page manifesto, a rambling internet document which Anders


Behring Breivik is believed to have been working on for several years.


As Norway struggles to come to terms with the tragedy, was this


the work of just one deeply disturbed individual or are there


others in Norway with the same hate-filled ideology and access to


weapons? Let's speak to our correspondent


who is near the island of Utoeya. You have been finding out more


about this manifesto which Anders Behring Breivik posted on the


internet? Yes, good morning. The papers here in Norway today are


dominated by one image, and this is it. A young man looking down the


sights of a very high-powered weapon. With it are the details of


this 15 page manifesto. There are tips about how to build bombs, he


speaks about when he went out to buy fertiliser. He also charts down


the days towards what he is alleged to have done two days ago, but


crucially you get an idea of what he is thinking. There are a lot of


remarks about Marxism but also immigration and his view that


Europe has become dominated by it is mummification and his target are


the political classes who made it possible. -- Islamisation. Briefly,


what now in terms of the rescue operation itself? Whilst I have


been speaking to you, several boats have been here, and they are still


looking for about five people missing. But the rescue operation


is still very much going on today. Tributes has been paid to the


singer Amy Winehouse who was found dead in her London home yesterday.


Police have described her death as one explained. The 27 year-old


singer had struggled with drug and alcohol addiction in recent years.


The President of the Football Federation has said he will appeal


against a lifetime ban from the sport. The first found him guilty


of trying to buy votes in his bid to become President of the


organisation. That is it from me for now, back to you James.


On Today's front pages, obviously they are dominated by events in


Norway. The Sunday Times says about the witness Testament from people


who watched it going on and were hiding. The Sunday Telegraph has a


picture of the alleged killer, and pictures of the victims holding up


their hands at the moment he was stalking them. The Independent on


Sunday has a different take, they have gone for a slightly more


subtle photograph of the bodies lying on the beach covered up. The


other main story of this league is the death of Amy Winehouse, and the


Sunday Mirror giving it more prominence than events in Norway.


Now, we have Jacqui Smith, Catherine Meyer and Rory Bremner.


Welcome to you. Obviously Norway is dominating here. Catherine, have


the papers covered it for you? are trying to make sense of


something senseless, so you have people focusing in on small parts


of the picture. The Observer has this opinion piece really from a


Norwegian newspaper editor who talks about the end of innocence in


Norway, who sees this as something that could be profoundly changing


to Norwegian society, but in his description of Norway's innocence,


what you find yourself thinking, and it is something that Telegraph


deals with about the rise of the far right and the home of the Nobel


Peace Prize, is that a lot of this is about the failure of society to


focus on where the threat might come from. That there had been


perhaps too much attention paid to the threat from Islamic terrorism


and too little to the pervasive... The thing about this suspect is it


seemed that he may have been a lone operator in one sense but he was


nevertheless very clearly with links to far right groups and


influenced by this. Do you get that sense, too, that somehow the focus


has been on Islamist terrorism? the Independent that is one of the


criticisms made by a former Norwegian minister who is now a


crime novelist. It is always easy with hindsight to recognise where


the gaps in security operations were. It has been the case in the


UK that there have been some success for a rest of people who


appeared to have far-right sympathies, and who looked as if


they were planning attacks, but it is also the case that the vast


majority of the threat, the analysis suggests, is that it comes


from the terrorist threat. There is also the debate about the way


intelligence sharing can be used, and we will want put our expertise


to put that to the Norwegians to help. In the Sun yesterday, it


described Anders Behring Breivik as the Al-Qaeda convert. This 6 ft


blonde, blue-eyed, Al-Qaeda convert, until the truth came out. In the


Express, you don't find anything about Norway. He had to turn to


page 6 before you find anything about it, apart from the front page


which carries this very strong image of St George, which curiously


it is the image that appears again and again on Anders Behring


Breivik's website. I would like to pick up on the point about whether


knitters an Islamic terrorist people talk about links to Al-Qaeda,


with right-wing people write it off and say it is one lone mad man.


They are very rarely on their own, they have links to the English


Defence League and so on. And the idea, that has -- pervasiveness of


the ideas, the way politicians link with voters, there are all sorts


of... Sorry, go ahead. I do not think it is an excuse for right-


wing terrorism. What is interesting about the previous governments and


this government's prevent Strand, the how do we challenge violent


extremism, if it does recognise there are similarities between


right-wing extreme violent extremism and Islamist, and the


answer to that is to base our approach in core values that we


will expect from everybody. Isn't the bottom line that unless this is


a network, you can't anticipate these things? It is difficult to


get into that. If it turns out to be a lone individual, you can't


prevent that. In the States obviously you had Timothy McVeigh


much more recently, you had the shooter of Gabriel deferred. At


that point, you could find out he had a social media presence, that


there were signs of there. I don't know with Anders Behring Breivik,


it seems here reopened his Facebook and Twitter accounts recently, but


there are things you can look for. There are some other practical


things we have learnt as well in the UK. Anders Behring Breivik


bought six tons of fertiliser in order to make his car bomb. I


suspect it would be difficult in the UK to buy that much fertiliser


without it being flagged up. Let's move on to other issues. Rory, the


American economy. From Amy Winehouse to the White House. The


extent of America's debt, they have this important decision about


raising the debt ceiling from 14 trillion dollars. That beats Andrew


Marr's salary as commission mark a decision has to be taken and the


extent to which the Republicans are conducting this brinkmanship and


refusing to allow this debt ceiling to be raised, and again we are


talking about the influence of right-wing parties. There is the


Tea Party in America, which is pushing the Republicans on this


agenda say they will not tolerate another dollar of tax expenditure


to try and deal with the crisis they have, they want to see it on


with spending cuts. The gap is so small, the Republicans themselves


so they want to see 85% spending cuts, and 15% of tax measures. They


are at 83% to 17% now but they are still holding the ground on the


Republicans and also willing to let their country go down. You can't


Some of this is about getting to grips with the Government.


Obviously, phone hacking is still in the papers this morning. There


is a lot in the papers. It has been driven off the front pages but in


the Observer, we have victims of the 77 bombing in London worried


that the police gave their details to News of the World reporters. I


have found the whole issue about the police the most disturbing. You


have a police force in Scotland Yard that has worldwide renown.


They have been approached to help with Norway and yet, here they are,


presumably a small number but nevertheless a small number of


people possibly passing information. They are the people you should


trust. I went to the Home Affairs Committee the other day. It was an


extraordinary set of testimony about how, with News International


and the police, the police seem to have blurred and become one


organisation at certain points. did they first here about Amy


Winehouse, by the way? I was worried that the first reports came


through the Sunday Mirror. Now, they may have come by that


legitimately. It may also not just be the police. Michael Hutchins


told a mutual friend, never use your name when you're calling an


ambulance because the paparazzi will get there first. There is the


suggestion that was his experience, the emergency services had links to


the tabloids this up questions for the emergency services. Questions


for the Murdochs. This has reduced in priority after Norway but a good


article in the Observer talking about the culture of intimidation


that News International. When Vince Cable was coming out as the


strongest voice against the Murdoch empire he was quickly shoved off


that partly by the Daily Telegraph stinger on him. Henry Porter in the


Observer details a number of the intimidation and the warnings of


but went on under Murdoch, specifically the Independent about


the way they were covering his son, James Murdoch. This rumbles on but


I think we have lifted the lid on a very dark part of the media. And a


link with the BBC. This week there has been discussions about whether


or not David Cameron's meetings with News International and BSkyB


executives was appropriate or in appropriate. Suggestions in the


Sunday Telegraph but it led to changes in policy, plans to use the


BBC licence fee to promote a bit more diversity in the media and


television was stamped on by James Murdoch. Very briefly, a


humanitarian disaster going on in the Horn of Africa. There is some


coverage getting in on that. Independent have actually not


sidelined this issue. They have made it their central campaign


today, give a day's pay for Africa and they have a very rich reporting


from across the famine region. I was glad to see that. Obviously,


Amy Winehouse, a big story for the papers. Yes, very good piece by


Neil McCormick. Tony Bennett came out as saying he worked at the


recently and said how much he admired her. They recorded recently.


Neil McCormack says he was there in the studio when their record of


this piece of music and how wonderful it was. He said it looked


like she was feeling well, clearly sober, steady. The first time in a


studio for one year. They sang a beautifully together. It was


clearly a very exciting thing about to happen. But equally, Jacqui


Smith, lots of questions about drugs and alcohol. I think this


suggestion about the 27 Club, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, they were 27


when they died. Actually, what they have in common is they could not


get off drugs. It is a tragic waste which has come from this addiction


and the inability to move away from it. Thank you all very much indeed.


Now, one year from this Tuesday, the greatest show on earth gets


under way. The 2012 Olympics. Most buildings are finished and the main


stadium, where Barack Obama and more than 100 presidents and prime


ministers and others will watch the opening ceremony, is ready for


action right now. London last hosted the Games in 1948 and I


recently had the privilege of meeting two British competitors


from that time. Dorothy and John Parlett. Both were runners. John


took part in the men's 800 metres, while Dorothy Manley, as she then


was, won the silver medal in the women's 100 metre dash. Dorothy


explained how she went from being a shorthand typist and talented club


They drew up a list of possibles in 1947 and I found myself in the high


jump. Because I was on this list I was put into the hand of Sandy


Duncan, a very eminent athlete in his own right. And when he saw me


running, he said one day, "Dorothy, I don't think you're going to make


it on the high jump, but I can see potential in your running". That


was in March. On the 2nd August, but very same year, I got the


silver medal in the Olympic Games. They're so much hoopla and build up


about this. The athletes train for many years. There's a huge media


build up. Villagers are built for the athletes and you're talking


about a very different event, aren't you? Well, it wasn't the be


all and end all. Nowadays, you are aiming for gold and that is the one


word you hear all the time. Personally, I didn't go into it


thinking I was don't get a gold medal, not at all. I was just happy


to have taken part and that's it. These were very much the post-war


Olympics. A chance for countries to come together on the sporting field


rather than the battlefield. A time of optimism but also of austerity.


A lot of comment in some of the papers that the Olympics was a


waste of money. We have other things we should be spending our


money on. There was quite a lot of opposition from that point of view.


There were only two years to do the preparation. They took place at a


time when there was still rationing. What was your intake of food? What


were you eating at the time? All I can remember is we were given extra


rations of meat at the Olympics. I had a stake. I can remember my


mother buying it for me. She and my father couldn't have it because it


was fashioned. That's the only thing extra. -- it was rationed.


The Easter before the Games, Billy Butlin invited the hopefuls to his


holiday camp at Clacton with a couple first met. John cab to the


weekend on his home a movie camera. If the chance for the athletes to


socialise together although Dorothy admits she was never very good at


being relaxed. Dorothy, let's talk about the day itself and take me


through the final. The 100 metres final at the Olympics. How were you


feeling beforehand? Terrible, terrified. I always said, if I


could have run away, I would have done. I felt terrible. I was more


nervous than I would have liked to have been. And when the gun went


off, I got the best start I ever had in my life and I thought for a


moment, we were going to be recalled. Of course, I shouldn't


have been thinking about that. I shouldn't have been thinking that,


I should be thinking I have got to get from here to there and that's


it. And also, I had the lane at which was nearest to all the people,


but I would have loved to have had one of the centre ones because then


you can sense the people either side of you. Because I was very


stupid, I won't like that at one point. It was a reflex action but


my head turned. I presumed it to see where everybody else was. All


these things obviously went against me a bit. Tell me, what was it like


to race against fanny? I wouldn't have beaten her, in a month of


Sundays but I thought I could have been nearer to her had not been for


the silly things I did. Do you follow athletics today? No.


not? It just isn't the sport that I enjoyed. And I don't like watching


it and I don't like all the flag- waving. No. This nasty triumphalism.


It has become the norm. None of us won't like this, did we? If you


watch the films, you don't see that sort of thing. Will you be going to


the Olympics next year? I don't know. We are supposed to be getting


a ticket. If you are in the last Olympics, the last I heard, you


would get a ticket but I made it clear that I would like to be there


just for one occasion, the women's final of the 100 metres because I


would like to see that because it's time another British could not the


place. There's only two of us who have ever done it since 1960. No-


one has then been placed in 100 metres women. But you will watch,


won't you? Yes, I will watch some of it on television, yes. I'm only


interested in football and cricket really. How about that? I am joined


now by two women who can only aspire to such spirit. Dame Kelly


Holmes, the double gold winning heroine of the 2004 Athens Olympics.


And Tessa Jowell, the Shadow Olympics minister who sits on the


Olympics Board. Tessa, before I talk to Dame Kelly, can't you do


something about that? Surely a ticket for the women's 100 metres


can be found for Dorothy Parlett? Of course, it must be possible.


Dorothy must be they're taking a pride of place, and I'm sure there


will be people listening at the organising committee at this very


moment and I hope that they will be sorting out the tickets for Dorothy


and John. Excellent. Thank you very much indeed. Dame Kelly, you heard


what she was saying there. The world has changed. She didn't have


any dietary help, she did little training. She only started training


in the march of. The world has changed completely. Has it gone too


far the other way, do you think? the professionalism in Sport and


the Olympics has been heightened. Of course, the media exposure, the


interest in sport and the way people become role models and


heroes in that changed the outlook of what the sport is about.


Representing the country, more countries are now taking part, of


course. There is more finance put into sport so we have bigger


showcases. Yes, it has changed, but we have to change with that


unfortunately for the isn't there a risk of there is too much pressure


put on the athletes, their expectations are too high? And they


lose a little bit of the spirit of the fun of competing? Yes, you're


absolutely right. 2012 is going to be the best Olympic Games ever. It


will be extraordinary for our country. The expectations and


pressures of the team and the British team especially is going to


be so heightened because it is on home turf, and I think there's


going to be a lot of young athletes that people don't know about. It


will be there kind of, "I am at the Olympic Games and nobody would


expect anything" And they will get some medals and then you get the


established stars. We will see a lot of people falling and that's a


balance of what the Olympic Games brings but you can't underestimate


how fantastic it's going to be. it as a prediction. I'll be going


to do better than last and? I think, in Beijing, we came 4th in the


medal table, not where we want to come because now the pressure is on,


but the funding has been a tremendous. Every sport has stepped


up their game and I do absolutely believe we will have more success


in a broader range of sport. I wouldn't want to predict how many


medals that's going to be, but, you know, we have to do very well over


every sport and I think that is given to be our success but the


success is not just going to be what happens in the stadium, it's


also going to be how we, as a nation, showcase the Olympic Games.


We have got a really unique country, our culture, media, music and


everything. If we can bring that together and let the fans of sport


and the country enjoyed and no that we have the Olympic Games, that


will be our success. Thank you very much indeed for telling us that.


Tessa Jowell, we have had the optimistic outlook from Dame Kelly.


Let's look first of all that ticketing. A lot of people right


now thought they were going to get a ticket but didn't. What went


wrong? What else is being done about it? Well, nothing went wrong,


James. What happened was that their work 22,000 applications bought 6.5


million tickets. So we are facing the amazing prospect of being the


first a sell out Olympic Games. The only sport, as of now, for which


tickets have been released and are available but has not sold out his


football. Particularly the football and outside London. There will,


however, be a bit over one million tickets released at the end of the


year, the beginning and texture, and I know that everybody's aim is


to make sure those people, to 0.2 million people applying for tickets,


and have been disappointed, get tickets. The extent to which that


is possible is obviously a matter of arithmetic. But the fact is,


there is a will to address that disappointment. But let's not


forget that the fact that many people have not got the tickets


they wanted, is a function of the enormous enthusiasm that people


How concerned are you that the Olympics will be a target for


terrorism, and what is being done about it? I was interested to


listen to the peace on Norway, and obviously Jacqui Smith's comments.


She was Home Secretary when we were working on the early stages of the


security plan. That has preceded, after the election, in a pretty


seamless way. All I can say it is that the aspect of the present


strategy to engage young people who might be at risk of radicalisation,


but also the mobilisation of police forces around the country is in


advanced state of organisation. We can take confidence I think from


the fact the rest of the world looks to our security services at


times like this for advice on how to do it. We are confident in the


capability and vigilance is going to be absolutely vital, but


everybody should be assured that the Security Planning is very well


under way and it is in good hands. Even if the Metropolitan Police is


in the state it is now, you retain that confidence? Yes, I think it is


absolutely right that the successor to Stevenson needs to be appointed


as quickly as possible. Obviously he has been the figurehead, but


underneath his level the work goes on. It goes on not just in the Met,


the leading police authority, but also with the Olympic security


executive within the Home Office. Thank you.


A bit of sunshine in the south today, let's hear what the


today, let's hear what the prospects are across the UK now


with the weather forecast. Today the weather will be behaving


reasonably well, and for most that means it should be a dry day. It


will feel warmer than yesterday but there are exceptions. South-west


Wales and south-west England could be cloudy with spots of rain, and


the far north-east of Scotland stays cloudy as well with outbreaks


of rain continuing across the northern isles. In the sunshine, it


will feel warmer with temperatures of 24 degrees in London. Through


this evening and overnight it is a chilly night across parts of


northern England and southern Scotland. Further west it will turn


murky with fog patches developing across Wales and south-west England.


Some rain forecast for Northern Ireland, that will work into the


West of England in the afternoon with the best of the sunshine


further east. Depending on how much sunshine we see, we could see the


temperatures climbing as high as 26 This morning we are learning more


about the potential motives of the killer in Norway, and the full


scale of the tragedy but what are the implications? William Hague,


the foreign secretary, joins me now. You have been speaking to your


counterpart in Norway, what has he been saying? By yes, I was in touch


with the Norwegian foreign secretary, as ambassador in Oslo


has been in close touch with the Norwegian authorities and we have a


British police officer based there in our embassy to co-ordinate


assistance. In all those conversations we have expressed


their deep condolences of the people of Britain to the people and


the government of Norway, and we have offered any practical


assistance that can be useful to them. Practical assistance in terms


of police co-operation and also in terms of our experience in this


country of coming to terms with tragedies of this kind. We will


keep in close touch with them of course over the coming hours and


days as more information develops. How do you do that? How do you


share experience of incidents like Dunblane with the Norwegian


authorities? As I say, we will be working on that over the coming


days and weeks, if the Norwegians want to take us up on that kind of


assistance, but we have local authorities, police forces,


individuals with immense experience of what we have been through in


this country. Norway does not have that experience, this is one of the


reasons why it it is such a profound shock. It is the worst


event in Norway since the end of the Second World War, so we can


personally have that experience passed on. If necessary we will


have people visit Norway and give the benefit of our advice and


experience. As foreign secretary, you are formally responsible for


MI6. What is taking place at the moment to try and make our own


assessment of further threat there may be out there as a result of


what has happened in Norway? can't ever go into details on


intelligence matters, but I will say that the work I see first hand


every day, and the Home Secretary seas, the work of our intelligence


services, shows that a tremendous job is done day-by-day for our


country and in co-operation with our allies in keeping this country


as safe as possible from terrorism. We have many many successes in


trying to keep this country safe from terrorism, and costs are


allies include Norway. This on the face of it at the moment is not an


event that has arisen from an international network or


international conspiracy, but it is early days in looking into it.


Across the countries of Europe and globally, we have extremely strong


counter-terrorism co-operation. We are reinforcing that all the time,


and Aaron contest was published a couple of weeks ago saying that we


must be ready to face all forms of terrorism. The main terrorist


threat remains Al-Qaeda or or people inspired by it Al-Qaeda, but


that is not the only kind of extremist or terrorist threat.


These events are a sad reminder of that. How do you respond to the


charge that Western countries have focused too much on Islamist


terrorism and not enough on the threat of right-wing terrorism?


There are two answers to that. Firstly, we must not think because


of this event that Al-Qaeda inspired terrorism is not a threat.


It remains in all assessment the single biggest terrorist threat to


the UK and to our European allies. That remains the case. The other


answer to that is that in our counter-terrorism strategy, it is


very clear that is not the only form of threat we may face. The


National Security Council will meet tomorrow in London and we will look


at the lessons to be learned from this. We will check that enough


attention is being given to all forms of terrorism, and of course


we put in place over the last few years for strong defence. We had


tight firearms controls in Britain and very tight controls on the sale


of material needed to manufacture a bomb, and we have the most highly


professionally trained firearms officers in the world, and we have


the police and intelligence agencies working well together in


making sure, best as we can, the country is safe from a tax. Isn't


there a bottom line that, however good the strategy is, you can't


stop alone individual carrying out something like this unless he has


some trace, unless he is part of a network you can break into?


course it is much harder in the case of a lone individual or a


couple of people, that is much harder than combating a terrorist


network and that is why you have to have the other things, the firearms


legislation, the control on material needed to manufacture a


bomb, but even then you can't guarantee being able to prevent


every attack or every kind of attack. That is why we have levels


of warnings about terrorist attack which we published openly. That


level in this country is currently rated as substantial, that there is


a possibility of an attack and an attack without warning. It always


requires vigilance from members of the public and it always requires


us to think of a new situation or a new kind of threat. It is exactly


to make sure we are preparing ourselves for that that we will be


discussing it in the National Security Council tomorrow. Thank


you. This week the Metropolitan Police


Commissioner Sir Paul Stevenson resigned, as did his assistant


commissioner John Yates. Both were casualties of the phone hacking


crisis. So what now for the Met? I am joined now by Sir Hugh Orde, the


President of the Association. -- the Association of Chief Police


Officers. Firstly, let's speak about Norway. Can you talk to me


about what kind of experience and support and help the British police


can provide? It will be a substantial inquiry by the


Norwegian police, who are a competent police service. We have


already offered help, which is very reassuring. I spoke to the national


co-ordinator only this morning, he assures me we have made those


offers, as has my organisation. We have many years of experience and


will help if asked to do so. How do you deal with the lone gunman who


has not got any present on the internet may be, not part of any


network, and they go out and do something like this. Can you defend


against something like that? You do your level best. First of all, we


do not know if this was a lone gunman. To a substantial degree in


this country, you plan for and prepare for those events which


slipped through the intelligence net. In 1984 we looked like a


liberal democracy compared to the structures you need to know about


everything and everybody, but recently we ran a major exercise to


make sure we were as well prepared as we can be to deal with that sort


of threat in this country, and the Test stood up to its name. We


delivered. Why did you do that test? Because you think there is a


real prospect of it happening? Because you have to keep ahead of


the game. We knew from Mumbai for example that we have to start


thinking in different ways. Terrorism moves all the time. The


experience from Northern Ireland comes in there, and a fertiliser


bomb is likely, so things move on. The trick of policing is we look at


these things, we learn from them, we engage with the government, and


prepared to protect the citizens in this country as best we can. Let's


move on to phone hacking. Appal investigation, incredibly close


links to News International, two of the most senior police officers


forced to resign, give me a sense of the crisis the Metropolitan


Police is facing this morning. First of all, we have queued


strength in depth. My sense is 140,000 police officers in this


country are looking at this and they are clearly worried. They need


new leadership to be put in, and the advertisement has already gone


out, so there is a plan in place. We will continue to protect


citizens. I am concerned about this suggestion that 140,000 police out


there are taking payments, it is a bizarre suggestion, but we are not


complacent about that. Her Majesty's respect is looking at


that in a detailed way to form a clear view on just what the


challenges are facing this police service. But there is some


corruption. Some people will be potentially arrested for this. How


does the Met restore confidence without having some kind of formal


By continuing to deliver the service for people of London


require. Confidence at precinct is at a far higher level than it was


when I joined. Let's not lose our nerve here. We need to put in the


right structure. Officers look for leadership, that's clear. The chief


officer of this country, Sir Paul Stephenson said he was responsible,


and therefore, he is handing in his notice. You think a couple of


resignations will restore confidence? No, I think the public


will judge us on how we deliver police services day-in and day-out.


Crime is falling. Conference in policing continues. Let's not be


complacent but let's not create a crisis which does not exist.


policemen who have done wrong here, do we need to see them convicted


and going to jail to convince people of your argument about the


wider police force, there's no endemic corruption? I have zero


tolerance of any officer who steps out of that. There is a zero-


tolerance and this inquiry will look precisely at that. I think


when we look at that inquiry... needs some prosecutions. Is it


feasible we will see that? I think this inquiry will pursue that.


Absolutely. Any corrupt officer that lets the side down, who does


huge damage to policing, expect to be locked up and the key thrown


away. This week we had an estimate how many police numbers are going


to be cut, substantially across the place. The government says it's


necessary. The police after do things more efficiently. We're


doing our level best to be as efficient as we can be. A report


was released this week saying, despite a 20% cuts, we have


maintained frontline services by doing things in different ways. We


do need to look more widely at policing through commission. We are


Karen be delivering 21st century ruffs with a twentieth-century


police force. Sir Hugh Orde, thank you very much for coming in this


morning. So, a second bail-out for Greece has been agreed. The


eurozone and the markets can breathe a sigh of relief. Or can


they? As economists pore over the detail, questions remain over


whether the deal agreed in Brussels is just a temporary sticking


plaster or a sustainable answer to the euro's woes. Britain is not in


the eurozone but its economy is utterly intertwined. So what does


it mean for us? The business secretary, Vince Cable is here.


Good morning. Answer but first question. As the deal which has


been agreed this week, is at a sticking plaster for the short term


or today sustainable solution? has unsolved the big problems but


is a big step forward. Essentially, what they have agreed is that some


of the great debt will be written off. The banks will absorb the cost


of that. They have agreed to a bigger package of measures for


future difficulties and take a Nicky step forward in the economic


union. -- a huge step forward. The biggest threat to the world


financial system comes from a few right-wing nutters been the


American Congress rather than the eurozone. Temporary measures. More


will have to be done but it's a step forward. Is it enough?


issue of Greig debt, they grasp the principle of debt reduction. --


Greek debt. They had just begun to take the first steps to accepting


there will have to be much closer economic integration. Does it need


more structural change? I think those people are irresponsible be


become of those who are rubbing their hands with glee hoping that


the eurozone will collapse for that it is in that Britain's interest,


as the Chancellor pointed out this week, the eurozone succeeds, and


they had taken a few key steps to make sure it does succeed. Of


course, we are not likely to be part of it in the future, but it is


very important for our economy in terms of trade and stability of our


banks, it does succeed. We want them to succeed. In the UK we have


the growth figures this week. You spend a lot of your time touring


the country. How concerned are you about the state of the economy and


growth? It isn't great and it's not surprising. That's because of the


problems we inherited, the banking collapse, the recession, the


unsustainable boom up. We had to put public financials in order.


These are not easy problems. First of all, we are in a German block


than a Greek position in the financial markets, which is very


positive. We are beginning to see real evidence of rebalancing. I


travel around the country a lot, the aerospace industry, the car


industry, real private sector investment is taking place. The


beginnings of a rebirth of manufacturing exports. The growth


is and they yet, is it? There is a genuine problem with demand.


Consumer demand. Again, it's not surprising. The world commodity


prices have gone up. Its other big effect on consumer confidence here


but the Bank of England has played a key role in keeping interest


rates down. And, if necessary, using a money supply to deal with


this problem if weak demand continues. You think more printing


of money could be one of the solutions to tide us over this lack


of growth? The Bank of England is independent. But if there is a


sustained period of weakness in demand, the right approach to that


is not for the government to relax its fiscal discipline, we have to


keep that going, but the Bank of England must pursue policies of low


interest rates which keeps the exchange rate down, but also using


expansion of quantity easing in more imaginative ways, not just


government security acquiring. do you mean by more imaginative


ways? There are members of the Monetary Policy Committee which


float in different ideas would hope to do wants to be easing. It is for


them to form their own judgment -- -- different ideas to implement


quantities of the easing. -- quantitative easing. We realise it


is a difficult. There are weaknesses which we have inherited.


We realise they are deep-rooted. The problem we have is not simply


getting growth started again, but getting it started in a sustainable


way. It has got to come through business investment, exports,


manufacturing, and we're putting in place policies to make sure that


happens. You still responsible for media ownership rules. This will be


looked at other levels of inquiry. What would you like to see?


depends what they come up with but I think we have learned from the


past that having media moguls dominating British media is deeply


unhelpful, not in terms just a plurality but the wider impact on


the political world. What I would like to see is a set of very clear


unambiguous rules about market shares, so we don't have dominant


players. Limits? Yes, a presumption against cross ownership between the


press and television. A some would say Rupert Murdoch brought


plurality to this country by having television and newspapers and


without him we would have had fewer newspapers boss of the Times and


the Independent may not have been existing. He has made a positive


contributions, in a balanced view. I don't want to detract with that.


In the world, we have had some very dominant media companies and I


think we need to draw lessons from that, not in a personal way. We


need diversity, plurality and twice. It has got to come from wider


ownership. Rupert Murdoch's dominance will never happen again?


Well, it isn't simply Rupert Murdoch for the there are other big


media companies to cut other the same influence in the future and we


have got to stop that happening. You heard what Sir Hugh Orde said


about his view of the Metropolitan Police at the moment. Are you


satisfied with what is going on at the moment? You have been critical


of the sleazy links between media and police, the corruption, a word


which is now being used by the Prime Minister about what has gone


on. I'm a very worried about it because, like most people, I have


tremendous respect for the police, and the vast majority of the police


are completely honest and feel anger about the way they have been


let down by people higher up the system. There does need to be a


proper independent investigation so that if there are bad apples, they


do need to be removed from the barrel for a you famously told the


Telegraph undercover reporter I have declared war on Mr Murdoch and


I think we're going to win. Have you won? I don't see it like that,


actually? I had responsibility for that problem and I made sure the


bid was referred to an independent regulator. There was a lot of


advice just to let it through. It would do the regulator and as a


result, it was stopped and as a result, we are a much more held the


position today. What are your thoughts about members of the Lib


Dem been bullied by News International staff? Is there


something you have experienced? There was heavy lobbying but


perfectly legal. Nobody is suggesting anything illegal


happened on that front but I don't want to dwell on the past I want to


focus on reforming the system of competition. So then begin other


more plural system in the future. Finally, do you believe News


International is a fit and proper organisation to own its existing


stock of BSkyB? But the big question to ask in view of what has


happened but fortunately, it's not up to politicians to decide. The


regulator Ofcom is now looking at whether they are fit and proper


people to continue to have their share and ownership and they will


come to a decision. Would you do that if they're at it Rupert


Murdoch just pitched up his tent and left? I'm not personalising it.


They have got to look at the question of fit and proper people


and we will wait and see what happens. Excellent. Thank you very


much for joining us. I think a defined a new phrase, "Heavy


lobbying". Now over to Kate for the news headlines.


James, thank you. William Hague has said Al-Qaeda poses the biggest of


terror threat to the terror threat despite the shooting in Norway from


a man with extreme right-wing links. He said Britain had a strong


defence there is any similar actions by activists including


extreme high laws and highly trained officers. In Oslo, a


cathedral service are taking place today to commemorate those who were


killed in Friday's attacks. The man accused, 32-year-old Anders Behring


Breivik has told his lawyer that his actions were atrocious but


necessary. He says he will explain himself in court tomorrow. That is


all from me for now. The next news is that my day. First a look at


what is coming up after the show. Today on Sunday morning live,


should we have a right to know if our part as a violent past? A


father says it would have saved his daughter. We will ask acyclic if


she should be banned for charging for her services? Should we be


proud of our political leaders? Go to the website to join in. James.


Right, we're out of time. Sophie Rayworth is here at the same time


next Sunday, keeping the Marr flame burning bright while Andrew is


filming on the other side of the world. And in all the tributes to


Amy whitehouse that have emerged in the last few hours, I was struck by


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