24/07/2011 The Andrew Marr Show

Hello and good morning. The week began with resignations at Scotland

Yard, high drama in parliament and a Prime Minister rushing back from

Africa to face his critics. But the who did what to whom and when of

the phone hacking crisis has been put firmly into perspective by the

bloody events on an island off the coast of Norway. I am standing in

for Andrew this morning when we will ask why a young Norwegian man

felt the need to murder more than 90 of his fellow countrymen.

According to his lawyer, he thought it was "gruesome but necessary". As

well as going live to the island of Utoeya to hear the latest news of

the police operation, to find out whether the gunman was working

alone and how he had been planning the attack, we will be speaking to

the British foreign secretary about what the government is doing in

response to the tragedy. We will also be speaking to Sir Hugh Orde,

the President of the Association of Chief Police officers. With

continuing uncertainty about whether the latest bail-out for

Greece will get the euro-zone out of the woods, the business

secretary Vince Cable is here to tell us what it means for our own

economy. We last came about whether the strength of Rupert Murdoch's

empire is waning. We will talk to some distinguished

athletes ahead of the London Olympics, young and old. Review the

papers we have the former Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, the chief

of Time magazine, Catherine Meyer, and Rory Bremner. But first, the

news. The man accused of carrying out

Friday's mass shooting in Norway has admitted responsibility. The

lawyer representing 32 year-old Anders Behring Breivik says he is

describing his own actions as atrocious but necessary. 85 people

died when he opened fire in Utoeya, north-west of Oslo. After the

violence, the investigation into Anders Behring Breivik is widening.

It is centred on two areas, firstly this remote farm he was renting

where it is believed he built the bomb detonated in Oslo on Friday,

tearing through government buildings and killing at least

seven people. We are going through the whole farm for technical

evidence, looking for everything that could be connected to the late

incident. Police have found several tons of fertiliser at the farm,

which is a component in home-made bombs and explosives. After the

bomb went off, he drove to the island of Utoeya and murdered at

least 35 people. Locals were shocked that their seemingly

harmless neighbour could be harbouring such murderous plans so

nearby. It is very creepy because we have a child here, and he was

building bombs over there. We could have been hurt so it is not good.

The killer's lawyer says he has admitted responsibility for the

killings and will explain himself in court on Monday. TRANSLATION: He

has said he believes the actions were atrocious, but in his head

they were necessary. Away from the farm, the investigation is also

considering his writings and internet postings, particularly her

1500 page manifesto, a rambling internet document which Anders

Behring Breivik is believed to have been working on for several years.

As Norway struggles to come to terms with the tragedy, was this

the work of just one deeply disturbed individual or are there

others in Norway with the same hate-filled ideology and access to

weapons? Let's speak to our correspondent

who is near the island of Utoeya. You have been finding out more

about this manifesto which Anders Behring Breivik posted on the

internet? Yes, good morning. The papers here in Norway today are

dominated by one image, and this is it. A young man looking down the

sights of a very high-powered weapon. With it are the details of

this 15 page manifesto. There are tips about how to build bombs, he

speaks about when he went out to buy fertiliser. He also charts down

the days towards what he is alleged to have done two days ago, but

crucially you get an idea of what he is thinking. There are a lot of

remarks about Marxism but also immigration and his view that

Europe has become dominated by it is mummification and his target are

the political classes who made it possible. -- Islamisation. Briefly,

what now in terms of the rescue operation itself? Whilst I have

been speaking to you, several boats have been here, and they are still

looking for about five people missing. But the rescue operation

is still very much going on today. Tributes has been paid to the

singer Amy Winehouse who was found dead in her London home yesterday.

Police have described her death as one explained. The 27 year-old

singer had struggled with drug and alcohol addiction in recent years.

The President of the Football Federation has said he will appeal

against a lifetime ban from the sport. The first found him guilty

of trying to buy votes in his bid to become President of the

organisation. That is it from me for now, back to you James.

On Today's front pages, obviously they are dominated by events in

Norway. The Sunday Times says about the witness Testament from people

who watched it going on and were hiding. The Sunday Telegraph has a

picture of the alleged killer, and pictures of the victims holding up

their hands at the moment he was stalking them. The Independent on

Sunday has a different take, they have gone for a slightly more

subtle photograph of the bodies lying on the beach covered up. The

other main story of this league is the death of Amy Winehouse, and the

Sunday Mirror giving it more prominence than events in Norway.

Now, we have Jacqui Smith, Catherine Meyer and Rory Bremner.

Welcome to you. Obviously Norway is dominating here. Catherine, have

the papers covered it for you? are trying to make sense of

something senseless, so you have people focusing in on small parts

of the picture. The Observer has this opinion piece really from a

Norwegian newspaper editor who talks about the end of innocence in

Norway, who sees this as something that could be profoundly changing

to Norwegian society, but in his description of Norway's innocence,

what you find yourself thinking, and it is something that Telegraph

deals with about the rise of the far right and the home of the Nobel

Peace Prize, is that a lot of this is about the failure of society to

focus on where the threat might come from. That there had been

perhaps too much attention paid to the threat from Islamic terrorism

and too little to the pervasive... The thing about this suspect is it

seemed that he may have been a lone operator in one sense but he was

nevertheless very clearly with links to far right groups and

influenced by this. Do you get that sense, too, that somehow the focus

has been on Islamist terrorism? the Independent that is one of the

criticisms made by a former Norwegian minister who is now a

crime novelist. It is always easy with hindsight to recognise where

the gaps in security operations were. It has been the case in the

UK that there have been some success for a rest of people who

appeared to have far-right sympathies, and who looked as if

they were planning attacks, but it is also the case that the vast

majority of the threat, the analysis suggests, is that it comes

from the terrorist threat. There is also the debate about the way

intelligence sharing can be used, and we will want put our expertise

to put that to the Norwegians to help. In the Sun yesterday, it

described Anders Behring Breivik as the Al-Qaeda convert. This 6 ft

blonde, blue-eyed, Al-Qaeda convert, until the truth came out. In the

Express, you don't find anything about Norway. He had to turn to

page 6 before you find anything about it, apart from the front page

which carries this very strong image of St George, which curiously

it is the image that appears again and again on Anders Behring

Breivik's website. I would like to pick up on the point about whether

knitters an Islamic terrorist people talk about links to Al-Qaeda,

with right-wing people write it off and say it is one lone mad man.

They are very rarely on their own, they have links to the English

Defence League and so on. And the idea, that has -- pervasiveness of

the ideas, the way politicians link with voters, there are all sorts

of... Sorry, go ahead. I do not think it is an excuse for right-

wing terrorism. What is interesting about the previous governments and

this government's prevent Strand, the how do we challenge violent

extremism, if it does recognise there are similarities between

right-wing extreme violent extremism and Islamist, and the

answer to that is to base our approach in core values that we

will expect from everybody. Isn't the bottom line that unless this is

a network, you can't anticipate these things? It is difficult to

get into that. If it turns out to be a lone individual, you can't

prevent that. In the States obviously you had Timothy McVeigh

much more recently, you had the shooter of Gabriel deferred. At

that point, you could find out he had a social media presence, that

there were signs of there. I don't know with Anders Behring Breivik,

it seems here reopened his Facebook and Twitter accounts recently, but

there are things you can look for. There are some other practical

things we have learnt as well in the UK. Anders Behring Breivik

bought six tons of fertiliser in order to make his car bomb. I

suspect it would be difficult in the UK to buy that much fertiliser

without it being flagged up. Let's move on to other issues. Rory, the

American economy. From Amy Winehouse to the White House. The

extent of America's debt, they have this important decision about

raising the debt ceiling from 14 trillion dollars. That beats Andrew

Marr's salary as commission mark a decision has to be taken and the

extent to which the Republicans are conducting this brinkmanship and

refusing to allow this debt ceiling to be raised, and again we are

talking about the influence of right-wing parties. There is the

Tea Party in America, which is pushing the Republicans on this

agenda say they will not tolerate another dollar of tax expenditure

to try and deal with the crisis they have, they want to see it on

with spending cuts. The gap is so small, the Republicans themselves

so they want to see 85% spending cuts, and 15% of tax measures. They

are at 83% to 17% now but they are still holding the ground on the

Republicans and also willing to let their country go down. You can't

Some of this is about getting to grips with the Government.

Obviously, phone hacking is still in the papers this morning. There

is a lot in the papers. It has been driven off the front pages but in

the Observer, we have victims of the 77 bombing in London worried

that the police gave their details to News of the World reporters. I

have found the whole issue about the police the most disturbing. You

have a police force in Scotland Yard that has worldwide renown.

They have been approached to help with Norway and yet, here they are,

presumably a small number but nevertheless a small number of

people possibly passing information. They are the people you should

trust. I went to the Home Affairs Committee the other day. It was an

extraordinary set of testimony about how, with News International

and the police, the police seem to have blurred and become one

organisation at certain points. did they first here about Amy

Winehouse, by the way? I was worried that the first reports came

through the Sunday Mirror. Now, they may have come by that

legitimately. It may also not just be the police. Michael Hutchins

told a mutual friend, never use your name when you're calling an

ambulance because the paparazzi will get there first. There is the

suggestion that was his experience, the emergency services had links to

the tabloids this up questions for the emergency services. Questions

for the Murdochs. This has reduced in priority after Norway but a good

article in the Observer talking about the culture of intimidation

that News International. When Vince Cable was coming out as the

strongest voice against the Murdoch empire he was quickly shoved off

that partly by the Daily Telegraph stinger on him. Henry Porter in the

Observer details a number of the intimidation and the warnings of

but went on under Murdoch, specifically the Independent about

the way they were covering his son, James Murdoch. This rumbles on but

I think we have lifted the lid on a very dark part of the media. And a

link with the BBC. This week there has been discussions about whether

or not David Cameron's meetings with News International and BSkyB

executives was appropriate or in appropriate. Suggestions in the

Sunday Telegraph but it led to changes in policy, plans to use the

BBC licence fee to promote a bit more diversity in the media and

television was stamped on by James Murdoch. Very briefly, a

humanitarian disaster going on in the Horn of Africa. There is some

coverage getting in on that. Independent have actually not

sidelined this issue. They have made it their central campaign

today, give a day's pay for Africa and they have a very rich reporting

from across the famine region. I was glad to see that. Obviously,

Amy Winehouse, a big story for the papers. Yes, very good piece by

Neil McCormick. Tony Bennett came out as saying he worked at the

recently and said how much he admired her. They recorded recently.

Neil McCormack says he was there in the studio when their record of

this piece of music and how wonderful it was. He said it looked

like she was feeling well, clearly sober, steady. The first time in a

studio for one year. They sang a beautifully together. It was

clearly a very exciting thing about to happen. But equally, Jacqui

Smith, lots of questions about drugs and alcohol. I think this

suggestion about the 27 Club, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, they were 27

when they died. Actually, what they have in common is they could not

get off drugs. It is a tragic waste which has come from this addiction

and the inability to move away from it. Thank you all very much indeed.

Now, one year from this Tuesday, the greatest show on earth gets

under way. The 2012 Olympics. Most buildings are finished and the main

stadium, where Barack Obama and more than 100 presidents and prime

ministers and others will watch the opening ceremony, is ready for

action right now. London last hosted the Games in 1948 and I

recently had the privilege of meeting two British competitors

from that time. Dorothy and John Parlett. Both were runners. John

took part in the men's 800 metres, while Dorothy Manley, as she then

was, won the silver medal in the women's 100 metre dash. Dorothy

explained how she went from being a shorthand typist and talented club

They drew up a list of possibles in 1947 and I found myself in the high

jump. Because I was on this list I was put into the hand of Sandy

Duncan, a very eminent athlete in his own right. And when he saw me

running, he said one day, "Dorothy, I don't think you're going to make

it on the high jump, but I can see potential in your running". That

was in March. On the 2nd August, but very same year, I got the

silver medal in the Olympic Games. They're so much hoopla and build up

about this. The athletes train for many years. There's a huge media

build up. Villagers are built for the athletes and you're talking

about a very different event, aren't you? Well, it wasn't the be

all and end all. Nowadays, you are aiming for gold and that is the one

word you hear all the time. Personally, I didn't go into it

thinking I was don't get a gold medal, not at all. I was just happy

to have taken part and that's it. These were very much the post-war

Olympics. A chance for countries to come together on the sporting field

rather than the battlefield. A time of optimism but also of austerity.

A lot of comment in some of the papers that the Olympics was a

waste of money. We have other things we should be spending our

money on. There was quite a lot of opposition from that point of view.

There were only two years to do the preparation. They took place at a

time when there was still rationing. What was your intake of food? What

were you eating at the time? All I can remember is we were given extra

rations of meat at the Olympics. I had a stake. I can remember my

mother buying it for me. She and my father couldn't have it because it

was fashioned. That's the only thing extra. -- it was rationed.

The Easter before the Games, Billy Butlin invited the hopefuls to his

holiday camp at Clacton with a couple first met. John cab to the

weekend on his home a movie camera. If the chance for the athletes to

socialise together although Dorothy admits she was never very good at

being relaxed. Dorothy, let's talk about the day itself and take me

through the final. The 100 metres final at the Olympics. How were you

feeling beforehand? Terrible, terrified. I always said, if I

could have run away, I would have done. I felt terrible. I was more

nervous than I would have liked to have been. And when the gun went

off, I got the best start I ever had in my life and I thought for a

moment, we were going to be recalled. Of course, I shouldn't

have been thinking about that. I shouldn't have been thinking that,

I should be thinking I have got to get from here to there and that's

it. And also, I had the lane at which was nearest to all the people,

but I would have loved to have had one of the centre ones because then

you can sense the people either side of you. Because I was very

stupid, I won't like that at one point. It was a reflex action but

my head turned. I presumed it to see where everybody else was. All

these things obviously went against me a bit. Tell me, what was it like

to race against fanny? I wouldn't have beaten her, in a month of

Sundays but I thought I could have been nearer to her had not been for

the silly things I did. Do you follow athletics today? No.

not? It just isn't the sport that I enjoyed. And I don't like watching

it and I don't like all the flag- waving. No. This nasty triumphalism.

It has become the norm. None of us won't like this, did we? If you

watch the films, you don't see that sort of thing. Will you be going to

the Olympics next year? I don't know. We are supposed to be getting

a ticket. If you are in the last Olympics, the last I heard, you

would get a ticket but I made it clear that I would like to be there

just for one occasion, the women's final of the 100 metres because I

would like to see that because it's time another British could not the

place. There's only two of us who have ever done it since 1960. No-

one has then been placed in 100 metres women. But you will watch,

won't you? Yes, I will watch some of it on television, yes. I'm only

interested in football and cricket really. How about that? I am joined

now by two women who can only aspire to such spirit. Dame Kelly

Holmes, the double gold winning heroine of the 2004 Athens Olympics.

And Tessa Jowell, the Shadow Olympics minister who sits on the

Olympics Board. Tessa, before I talk to Dame Kelly, can't you do

something about that? Surely a ticket for the women's 100 metres

can be found for Dorothy Parlett? Of course, it must be possible.

Dorothy must be they're taking a pride of place, and I'm sure there

will be people listening at the organising committee at this very

moment and I hope that they will be sorting out the tickets for Dorothy

and John. Excellent. Thank you very much indeed. Dame Kelly, you heard

what she was saying there. The world has changed. She didn't have

any dietary help, she did little training. She only started training

in the march of. The world has changed completely. Has it gone too

far the other way, do you think? the professionalism in Sport and

the Olympics has been heightened. Of course, the media exposure, the

interest in sport and the way people become role models and

heroes in that changed the outlook of what the sport is about.

Representing the country, more countries are now taking part, of

course. There is more finance put into sport so we have bigger

showcases. Yes, it has changed, but we have to change with that

unfortunately for the isn't there a risk of there is too much pressure

put on the athletes, their expectations are too high? And they

lose a little bit of the spirit of the fun of competing? Yes, you're

absolutely right. 2012 is going to be the best Olympic Games ever. It

will be extraordinary for our country. The expectations and

pressures of the team and the British team especially is going to

be so heightened because it is on home turf, and I think there's

going to be a lot of young athletes that people don't know about. It

will be there kind of, "I am at the Olympic Games and nobody would

expect anything" And they will get some medals and then you get the

established stars. We will see a lot of people falling and that's a

balance of what the Olympic Games brings but you can't underestimate

how fantastic it's going to be. it as a prediction. I'll be going

to do better than last and? I think, in Beijing, we came 4th in the

medal table, not where we want to come because now the pressure is on,

but the funding has been a tremendous. Every sport has stepped

up their game and I do absolutely believe we will have more success

in a broader range of sport. I wouldn't want to predict how many

medals that's going to be, but, you know, we have to do very well over

every sport and I think that is given to be our success but the

success is not just going to be what happens in the stadium, it's

also going to be how we, as a nation, showcase the Olympic Games.

We have got a really unique country, our culture, media, music and

everything. If we can bring that together and let the fans of sport

and the country enjoyed and no that we have the Olympic Games, that

will be our success. Thank you very much indeed for telling us that.

Tessa Jowell, we have had the optimistic outlook from Dame Kelly.

Let's look first of all that ticketing. A lot of people right

now thought they were going to get a ticket but didn't. What went

wrong? What else is being done about it? Well, nothing went wrong,

James. What happened was that their work 22,000 applications bought 6.5

million tickets. So we are facing the amazing prospect of being the

first a sell out Olympic Games. The only sport, as of now, for which

tickets have been released and are available but has not sold out his

football. Particularly the football and outside London. There will,

however, be a bit over one million tickets released at the end of the

year, the beginning and texture, and I know that everybody's aim is

to make sure those people, to 0.2 million people applying for tickets,

and have been disappointed, get tickets. The extent to which that

is possible is obviously a matter of arithmetic. But the fact is,

there is a will to address that disappointment. But let's not

forget that the fact that many people have not got the tickets

they wanted, is a function of the enormous enthusiasm that people

How concerned are you that the Olympics will be a target for

terrorism, and what is being done about it? I was interested to

listen to the peace on Norway, and obviously Jacqui Smith's comments.

She was Home Secretary when we were working on the early stages of the

security plan. That has preceded, after the election, in a pretty

seamless way. All I can say it is that the aspect of the present

strategy to engage young people who might be at risk of radicalisation,

but also the mobilisation of police forces around the country is in

advanced state of organisation. We can take confidence I think from

the fact the rest of the world looks to our security services at

times like this for advice on how to do it. We are confident in the

capability and vigilance is going to be absolutely vital, but

everybody should be assured that the Security Planning is very well

under way and it is in good hands. Even if the Metropolitan Police is

in the state it is now, you retain that confidence? Yes, I think it is

absolutely right that the successor to Stevenson needs to be appointed

as quickly as possible. Obviously he has been the figurehead, but

underneath his level the work goes on. It goes on not just in the Met,

the leading police authority, but also with the Olympic security

executive within the Home Office. Thank you.

A bit of sunshine in the south today, let's hear what the

today, let's hear what the prospects are across the UK now

with the weather forecast. Today the weather will be behaving

reasonably well, and for most that means it should be a dry day. It

will feel warmer than yesterday but there are exceptions. South-west

Wales and south-west England could be cloudy with spots of rain, and

the far north-east of Scotland stays cloudy as well with outbreaks

of rain continuing across the northern isles. In the sunshine, it

will feel warmer with temperatures of 24 degrees in London. Through

this evening and overnight it is a chilly night across parts of

northern England and southern Scotland. Further west it will turn

murky with fog patches developing across Wales and south-west England.

Some rain forecast for Northern Ireland, that will work into the

West of England in the afternoon with the best of the sunshine

further east. Depending on how much sunshine we see, we could see the

temperatures climbing as high as 26 This morning we are learning more

about the potential motives of the killer in Norway, and the full

scale of the tragedy but what are the implications? William Hague,

the foreign secretary, joins me now. You have been speaking to your

counterpart in Norway, what has he been saying? By yes, I was in touch

with the Norwegian foreign secretary, as ambassador in Oslo

has been in close touch with the Norwegian authorities and we have a

British police officer based there in our embassy to co-ordinate

assistance. In all those conversations we have expressed

their deep condolences of the people of Britain to the people and

the government of Norway, and we have offered any practical

assistance that can be useful to them. Practical assistance in terms

of police co-operation and also in terms of our experience in this

country of coming to terms with tragedies of this kind. We will

keep in close touch with them of course over the coming hours and

days as more information develops. How do you do that? How do you

share experience of incidents like Dunblane with the Norwegian

authorities? As I say, we will be working on that over the coming

days and weeks, if the Norwegians want to take us up on that kind of

assistance, but we have local authorities, police forces,

individuals with immense experience of what we have been through in

this country. Norway does not have that experience, this is one of the

reasons why it it is such a profound shock. It is the worst

event in Norway since the end of the Second World War, so we can

personally have that experience passed on. If necessary we will

have people visit Norway and give the benefit of our advice and

experience. As foreign secretary, you are formally responsible for

MI6. What is taking place at the moment to try and make our own

assessment of further threat there may be out there as a result of

what has happened in Norway? can't ever go into details on

intelligence matters, but I will say that the work I see first hand

every day, and the Home Secretary seas, the work of our intelligence

services, shows that a tremendous job is done day-by-day for our

country and in co-operation with our allies in keeping this country

as safe as possible from terrorism. We have many many successes in

trying to keep this country safe from terrorism, and costs are

allies include Norway. This on the face of it at the moment is not an

event that has arisen from an international network or

international conspiracy, but it is early days in looking into it.

Across the countries of Europe and globally, we have extremely strong

counter-terrorism co-operation. We are reinforcing that all the time,

and Aaron contest was published a couple of weeks ago saying that we

must be ready to face all forms of terrorism. The main terrorist

threat remains Al-Qaeda or or people inspired by it Al-Qaeda, but

that is not the only kind of extremist or terrorist threat.

These events are a sad reminder of that. How do you respond to the

charge that Western countries have focused too much on Islamist

terrorism and not enough on the threat of right-wing terrorism?

There are two answers to that. Firstly, we must not think because

of this event that Al-Qaeda inspired terrorism is not a threat.

It remains in all assessment the single biggest terrorist threat to

the UK and to our European allies. That remains the case. The other

answer to that is that in our counter-terrorism strategy, it is

very clear that is not the only form of threat we may face. The

National Security Council will meet tomorrow in London and we will look

at the lessons to be learned from this. We will check that enough

attention is being given to all forms of terrorism, and of course

we put in place over the last few years for strong defence. We had

tight firearms controls in Britain and very tight controls on the sale

of material needed to manufacture a bomb, and we have the most highly

professionally trained firearms officers in the world, and we have

the police and intelligence agencies working well together in

making sure, best as we can, the country is safe from a tax. Isn't

there a bottom line that, however good the strategy is, you can't

stop alone individual carrying out something like this unless he has

some trace, unless he is part of a network you can break into?

course it is much harder in the case of a lone individual or a

couple of people, that is much harder than combating a terrorist

network and that is why you have to have the other things, the firearms

legislation, the control on material needed to manufacture a

bomb, but even then you can't guarantee being able to prevent

every attack or every kind of attack. That is why we have levels

of warnings about terrorist attack which we published openly. That

level in this country is currently rated as substantial, that there is

a possibility of an attack and an attack without warning. It always

requires vigilance from members of the public and it always requires

us to think of a new situation or a new kind of threat. It is exactly

to make sure we are preparing ourselves for that that we will be

discussing it in the National Security Council tomorrow. Thank

you. This week the Metropolitan Police

Commissioner Sir Paul Stevenson resigned, as did his assistant

commissioner John Yates. Both were casualties of the phone hacking

crisis. So what now for the Met? I am joined now by Sir Hugh Orde, the

President of the Association. -- the Association of Chief Police

Officers. Firstly, let's speak about Norway. Can you talk to me

about what kind of experience and support and help the British police

can provide? It will be a substantial inquiry by the

Norwegian police, who are a competent police service. We have

already offered help, which is very reassuring. I spoke to the national

co-ordinator only this morning, he assures me we have made those

offers, as has my organisation. We have many years of experience and

will help if asked to do so. How do you deal with the lone gunman who

has not got any present on the internet may be, not part of any

network, and they go out and do something like this. Can you defend

against something like that? You do your level best. First of all, we

do not know if this was a lone gunman. To a substantial degree in

this country, you plan for and prepare for those events which

slipped through the intelligence net. In 1984 we looked like a

liberal democracy compared to the structures you need to know about

everything and everybody, but recently we ran a major exercise to

make sure we were as well prepared as we can be to deal with that sort

of threat in this country, and the Test stood up to its name. We

delivered. Why did you do that test? Because you think there is a

real prospect of it happening? Because you have to keep ahead of

the game. We knew from Mumbai for example that we have to start

thinking in different ways. Terrorism moves all the time. The

experience from Northern Ireland comes in there, and a fertiliser

bomb is likely, so things move on. The trick of policing is we look at

these things, we learn from them, we engage with the government, and

prepared to protect the citizens in this country as best we can. Let's

move on to phone hacking. Appal investigation, incredibly close

links to News International, two of the most senior police officers

forced to resign, give me a sense of the crisis the Metropolitan

Police is facing this morning. First of all, we have queued

strength in depth. My sense is 140,000 police officers in this

country are looking at this and they are clearly worried. They need

new leadership to be put in, and the advertisement has already gone

out, so there is a plan in place. We will continue to protect

citizens. I am concerned about this suggestion that 140,000 police out

there are taking payments, it is a bizarre suggestion, but we are not

complacent about that. Her Majesty's respect is looking at

that in a detailed way to form a clear view on just what the

challenges are facing this police service. But there is some

corruption. Some people will be potentially arrested for this. How

does the Met restore confidence without having some kind of formal

By continuing to deliver the service for people of London

require. Confidence at precinct is at a far higher level than it was

when I joined. Let's not lose our nerve here. We need to put in the

right structure. Officers look for leadership, that's clear. The chief

officer of this country, Sir Paul Stephenson said he was responsible,

and therefore, he is handing in his notice. You think a couple of

resignations will restore confidence? No, I think the public

will judge us on how we deliver police services day-in and day-out.

Crime is falling. Conference in policing continues. Let's not be

complacent but let's not create a crisis which does not exist.

policemen who have done wrong here, do we need to see them convicted

and going to jail to convince people of your argument about the

wider police force, there's no endemic corruption? I have zero

tolerance of any officer who steps out of that. There is a zero-

tolerance and this inquiry will look precisely at that. I think

when we look at that inquiry... needs some prosecutions. Is it

feasible we will see that? I think this inquiry will pursue that.

Absolutely. Any corrupt officer that lets the side down, who does

huge damage to policing, expect to be locked up and the key thrown

away. This week we had an estimate how many police numbers are going

to be cut, substantially across the place. The government says it's

necessary. The police after do things more efficiently. We're

doing our level best to be as efficient as we can be. A report

was released this week saying, despite a 20% cuts, we have

maintained frontline services by doing things in different ways. We

do need to look more widely at policing through commission. We are

Karen be delivering 21st century ruffs with a twentieth-century

police force. Sir Hugh Orde, thank you very much for coming in this

morning. So, a second bail-out for Greece has been agreed. The

eurozone and the markets can breathe a sigh of relief. Or can

they? As economists pore over the detail, questions remain over

whether the deal agreed in Brussels is just a temporary sticking

plaster or a sustainable answer to the euro's woes. Britain is not in

the eurozone but its economy is utterly intertwined. So what does

it mean for us? The business secretary, Vince Cable is here.

Good morning. Answer but first question. As the deal which has

been agreed this week, is at a sticking plaster for the short term

or today sustainable solution? has unsolved the big problems but

is a big step forward. Essentially, what they have agreed is that some

of the great debt will be written off. The banks will absorb the cost

of that. They have agreed to a bigger package of measures for

future difficulties and take a Nicky step forward in the economic

union. -- a huge step forward. The biggest threat to the world

financial system comes from a few right-wing nutters been the

American Congress rather than the eurozone. Temporary measures. More

will have to be done but it's a step forward. Is it enough?

issue of Greig debt, they grasp the principle of debt reduction. --

Greek debt. They had just begun to take the first steps to accepting

there will have to be much closer economic integration. Does it need

more structural change? I think those people are irresponsible be

become of those who are rubbing their hands with glee hoping that

the eurozone will collapse for that it is in that Britain's interest,

as the Chancellor pointed out this week, the eurozone succeeds, and

they had taken a few key steps to make sure it does succeed. Of

course, we are not likely to be part of it in the future, but it is

very important for our economy in terms of trade and stability of our

banks, it does succeed. We want them to succeed. In the UK we have

the growth figures this week. You spend a lot of your time touring

the country. How concerned are you about the state of the economy and

growth? It isn't great and it's not surprising. That's because of the

problems we inherited, the banking collapse, the recession, the

unsustainable boom up. We had to put public financials in order.

These are not easy problems. First of all, we are in a German block

than a Greek position in the financial markets, which is very

positive. We are beginning to see real evidence of rebalancing. I

travel around the country a lot, the aerospace industry, the car

industry, real private sector investment is taking place. The

beginnings of a rebirth of manufacturing exports. The growth

is and they yet, is it? There is a genuine problem with demand.

Consumer demand. Again, it's not surprising. The world commodity

prices have gone up. Its other big effect on consumer confidence here

but the Bank of England has played a key role in keeping interest

rates down. And, if necessary, using a money supply to deal with

this problem if weak demand continues. You think more printing

of money could be one of the solutions to tide us over this lack

of growth? The Bank of England is independent. But if there is a

sustained period of weakness in demand, the right approach to that

is not for the government to relax its fiscal discipline, we have to

keep that going, but the Bank of England must pursue policies of low

interest rates which keeps the exchange rate down, but also using

expansion of quantity easing in more imaginative ways, not just

government security acquiring. do you mean by more imaginative

ways? There are members of the Monetary Policy Committee which

float in different ideas would hope to do wants to be easing. It is for

them to form their own judgment -- -- different ideas to implement

quantities of the easing. -- quantitative easing. We realise it

is a difficult. There are weaknesses which we have inherited.

We realise they are deep-rooted. The problem we have is not simply

getting growth started again, but getting it started in a sustainable

way. It has got to come through business investment, exports,

manufacturing, and we're putting in place policies to make sure that

happens. You still responsible for media ownership rules. This will be

looked at other levels of inquiry. What would you like to see?

depends what they come up with but I think we have learned from the

past that having media moguls dominating British media is deeply

unhelpful, not in terms just a plurality but the wider impact on

the political world. What I would like to see is a set of very clear

unambiguous rules about market shares, so we don't have dominant

players. Limits? Yes, a presumption against cross ownership between the

press and television. A some would say Rupert Murdoch brought

plurality to this country by having television and newspapers and

without him we would have had fewer newspapers boss of the Times and

the Independent may not have been existing. He has made a positive

contributions, in a balanced view. I don't want to detract with that.

In the world, we have had some very dominant media companies and I

think we need to draw lessons from that, not in a personal way. We

need diversity, plurality and twice. It has got to come from wider

ownership. Rupert Murdoch's dominance will never happen again?

Well, it isn't simply Rupert Murdoch for the there are other big

media companies to cut other the same influence in the future and we

have got to stop that happening. You heard what Sir Hugh Orde said

about his view of the Metropolitan Police at the moment. Are you

satisfied with what is going on at the moment? You have been critical

of the sleazy links between media and police, the corruption, a word

which is now being used by the Prime Minister about what has gone

on. I'm a very worried about it because, like most people, I have

tremendous respect for the police, and the vast majority of the police

are completely honest and feel anger about the way they have been

let down by people higher up the system. There does need to be a

proper independent investigation so that if there are bad apples, they

do need to be removed from the barrel for a you famously told the

Telegraph undercover reporter I have declared war on Mr Murdoch and

I think we're going to win. Have you won? I don't see it like that,

actually? I had responsibility for that problem and I made sure the

bid was referred to an independent regulator. There was a lot of

advice just to let it through. It would do the regulator and as a

result, it was stopped and as a result, we are a much more held the

position today. What are your thoughts about members of the Lib

Dem been bullied by News International staff? Is there

something you have experienced? There was heavy lobbying but

perfectly legal. Nobody is suggesting anything illegal

happened on that front but I don't want to dwell on the past I want to

focus on reforming the system of competition. So then begin other

more plural system in the future. Finally, do you believe News

International is a fit and proper organisation to own its existing

stock of BSkyB? But the big question to ask in view of what has

happened but fortunately, it's not up to politicians to decide. The

regulator Ofcom is now looking at whether they are fit and proper

people to continue to have their share and ownership and they will

come to a decision. Would you do that if they're at it Rupert

Murdoch just pitched up his tent and left? I'm not personalising it.

They have got to look at the question of fit and proper people

and we will wait and see what happens. Excellent. Thank you very

much for joining us. I think a defined a new phrase, "Heavy

lobbying". Now over to Kate for the news headlines.

James, thank you. William Hague has said Al-Qaeda poses the biggest of

terror threat to the terror threat despite the shooting in Norway from

a man with extreme right-wing links. He said Britain had a strong

defence there is any similar actions by activists including

extreme high laws and highly trained officers. In Oslo, a

cathedral service are taking place today to commemorate those who were

killed in Friday's attacks. The man accused, 32-year-old Anders Behring

Breivik has told his lawyer that his actions were atrocious but

necessary. He says he will explain himself in court tomorrow. That is

all from me for now. The next news is that my day. First a look at

what is coming up after the show. Today on Sunday morning live,

should we have a right to know if our part as a violent past? A

father says it would have saved his daughter. We will ask acyclic if

she should be banned for charging for her services? Should we be

proud of our political leaders? Go to the website to join in. James.

Right, we're out of time. Sophie Rayworth is here at the same time

next Sunday, keeping the Marr flame burning bright while Andrew is

filming on the other side of the world. And in all the tributes to

Amy whitehouse that have emerged in the last few hours, I was struck by