17/07/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


17/07/2011

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Good morning and welcome. We had planned to be at the Olympic

:00:38.:00:42.

Stadium today, but instead we are sticking with the big story of the

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week. More shock revelations from the Rupert Murdoch Empire and the

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Chipping Norton said. The columnist and broadcaster Jeremy Clarkson

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admits this morning that they used to drink cocktails made from

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crushed Socialists and talk about taking her over the BBC before

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Rupert Murdoch joined us on a live video feed from his private

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volcano's stroking a white cat. It is extremely worrying, it is just

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possible it is a joke. But it has been an amazing week and to talk

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about the fall-out I am joined for today's paper review by one of the

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very few people close to Rupert Murdoch, Sky News Business

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presenter Jeff Randall, Polly Toynbee and the former editor of

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the Telegraph and Evening Standard, Max Hastings. It has been a real

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what next week in politics. Terrible for Rupert Murdoch's

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newspaper and television companies while some of his rivals are

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gloating like mad. This is the Independent on Sunday, they take on

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a once famous front page about Neil Kinnock from the Sun newspaper. As

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a Labour calls for new laws to ensure no individual every game has

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so much power in Britain's media, a lot of attention is moving to the

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role of the police as the saga unfolds. As the Government is

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buffeted by a firestorm of revelations, which I joined this

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morning by the Deputy Prime Minister whose Lib Dem colleagues

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are formally asking whether the owners of BSkyB are fit and proper

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people to run a television company in the UK. The hottest ticket in

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town will be for the Commons committee room where Mr Murdoch,

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his son James and Rebekah Brooks will be questioned by MPs on

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Tuesday. The man sharing that session is the Conservative MP John

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Whittingdale and he is with me as well. Labour have been enjoying all

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of this and I will be joined by the shadow Home Secretary a debt Cooper.

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I wonder if she has any regrets about Labour's once cosy

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relationship with Rupert Murdoch. And some music, Donna Summer that

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is. Andrea Corr and her band are going to play as out with a

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:03:02.:03:09.

wonderful cover of a great 1980s High-volume, cold morning. First,

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the news. The Labour leader Ed Miliband is

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calling for a change in the law to stop anyone proprietor from owning

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as many newspapers and broadcasters as Rupert Murdoch. The effect of

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the proposal would be to force the break-up of News International,

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currently under investigation for phone hacking. The company has

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placed another set of adverts in today's newspapers, saying it is

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committed to putting right what has gone wrong.

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He in an article in today's observe her Ed Miliband said Rupert Murdoch

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had too much power over public life. He said the concentration of media

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ownership in one person's hands was and healthier. The message from

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News International is in many of today's newspapers. It says there

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should be no place to hide from a police investigation into phone

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hacking. There is more pressure to bear on Metropolitan Police

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Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson who has already come under fire for

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his close links with News International. Scotland Yard said

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he stayed for five weeks at a resort whilst recovering from a leg

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injury. The cost of accommodation and meals was paid for by the boss,

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a family friend. One of the PR advisers was Neil Wallace, the

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former News of the World Jenise questioned by police on Friday. The

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Met Police said the commissioner was unaware of that until yesterday.

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Links between the media and politicians are also under scrutiny.

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John Whittingdale has confirmed that former News International

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executive Rebekah Brooks is one of hiscontacts. She has been summoned

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to give evidence to the committee on Tuesday. Mr Whittingdale said he

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would not call her a friend. The Ministry of Defence says a

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soldier from the Royal Lancers has been killed while on duty in

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Afghanistan. His family has been informed. An army spokesman said

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the soldier was on a joint patrol with the Afghan National Army in

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Helmand Province when he was shot. An investigation is being carried

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out into reports that he was barred on by an Afghan National Army

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soldier. MPs are warning that pulling

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British troops out of Afghanistan prematurely could weaken remaining

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forces. The Commons defence committee believes David Cameron's

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plan to withdraw by the end of 2014 could undermine the international

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coalition's strategy and they are not convinced the troops in

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Afghanistan have sufficient helicopters.

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On his recent visit to Helmand, the Prime Minister again made clear he

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wants combat operations to finish by the end of 2014. But MPs on the

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defence committee have warned against withdrawing British boys

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are too quickly or too soon from Afghanistan, saner the withdrawal

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was depend on the situation on the ground, and they are not sure where

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their the Afghan national army and police will be ready to take over

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security by then. Looking back at her the mission in Helmand began in

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2006, the MPs expressed many concerns, among them that the MoD

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did not anticipate sending in British troops. They are also

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critical of failure to warn ministers of the dangers facing

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those forces when they were first deployed under Tony Blair's

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Government. They said that for three years British troops lacked

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the necessary numbers and equipment after senior commanders in the UK

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told the then Defence Secretary that the commanders on the ground

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did not have what they needed. left our troops exposed and at risk

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in a way that was unacceptable. That has to be put right. There has

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got to be better communication between the military and the

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politicians. The military have got to be absolutely careful not to

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suppress warnings from the commanders on the ground. The MPs

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also said they are not yet convinced that troops now in

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Afghanistan have enough helicopters, not least after previous this year

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rinses were later proved wrong. The United Nations has made the

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first delivery of food and medicine to drought victims in areas of

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Somalia after a ruling militants lifted an aid ban. It comes as the

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famine could be formally declared in the next week by the UN. The

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International Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell, has been visiting

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the region and is urging other countries to do more to help. The

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UK has pledged �52 million in emergency aid.

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Tributes have been paid to the actor's Googie Withers who died

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aged 94. She was best known for working with Arford Hitchcock

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before the Second World War, but also had a successful career on

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television in later life. Her unusual first name was given to her

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by her nanny who struggle to say her real name, Georgette. That is

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all for now. I will be back just before 10 o'clock.

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We will have our regular review in a short while, but first I am

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joined by the Conservative MP John Whittingdale, chair of the Commons

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Committee on Culture and Media and he will be quizzing the Murdochs,

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father and son, on Tuesday and Rebekah Brooks. Famously Rebekah

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Brooks never gives TV interviews. But she did once talked to my

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predecessor David Frost in 2001. strongly believe we are on the side

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of the right, the public are behind us and we will continue to make

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sure that people understand the basis of Sarah's lock, controlled

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public access. That was Sarah's law, about identifying paedophiles. Now

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that they have accepted John Whittingdale's invitation, what can

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we expect on Tuesday? Will there be blood on the carpet in Boothroyd

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Room? They have accepted your invitation, but after quite a lot

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of pushing and tucking. There were some extraordinary stories that you

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would have gone to the extent of actually having them arrested by an

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officer of the House of Commons and they would have been put up in the

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Tower of Westminster. Is that true or is that a joke? I am not sure

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anyone knows because it has not been done for hundreds of years.

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Rebekah Brooks accepted the invitation to come to the committed.

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James Murdoch and Rupert Murdoch said they were both unavailable, so

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the committee passed a formal motion to serve a summons on them.

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Had they refuse to accept that, I would have gone to the House of

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Commons and asked for a motion to be passed by the whole house

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requiring them to attend. That would have been pretty much

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unprecedented. If they then failed to abide by that, to be honest I do

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not think anyone knows what would have happened next. In theory they

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would have been marred to the Commons and there is a little room

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which acts as a self. I believe there is something in the clock

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tower. Anyway, they are coming on Tuesday. Are they all coming

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together? Now the situation has changed, Rebekah Brooks is no

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longer an employee of News Corporation, I think we will

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probably want to talk to her separately from Rupert and James

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Murdoch. One of the things you will have to be careful about is not

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prejudging the judicial inquiry. Presumably one of the great

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questions is about this very large number of e-mails which were being

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held by News International's lawyers for years without being

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acknowledged or analysed. Is that at the heart of what you will be

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looking at? This is such an immensely complicated saga and

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there are a vast number of questions, that was certain it is

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one of them. We looked at all this two years ago when we had an

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inquiry, which is when we were assured but all of our witnesses

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that nobody had any involvement, it was down to one man. At that time

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we were told 2500 e-mails had been gone through with great care and no

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evidence emerged there was any involvement outside of Clive

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Goodman. Yes, we will certainly want to ask if that is the case had

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come now suddenly all of this is coming out? What would make a good

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day for the committee in terms of the breakthrough answers you would

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like to get? I think the sole purpose of the committee is to try

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and get closer to what actually happened and to uncover the truth.

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I would like and I hope there is a good chance that all three of the

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witnesses will come determined to do their best to help us. We

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understand there is an ongoing police inquiry, but that should not

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prevent us from learned a lot more about what went on and to

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authorised it. Do you think the committee was lied to us? We said

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in 2009 that we did not believe what what we had been told, that it

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was one person. We thought it was inconceivable that just one person

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could have been involved. What we did not know was whether or not the

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witnesses knew more than they were saying. Hopefully now that will

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become clearer. James Murdoch himself has said that Parliament

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was misled. Essentially he has told us that. You have got a lot of

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helpful advice no doubt, but also about the tone of the committee.

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There is presumably a lot of big egos in the room, and they will be

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shouting and so on, what are you going to achieve as chairman?

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not want us to be a lynch mob. On the other hand I do not want us to

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let them off without properly addressing the questions. I hope,

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and I am sure my colleagues will take the same you on the committee,

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that we will be calm and ask Batchelor, detailed questions.

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have got a few hours to do this, but if you do not get what you want,

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or you have them back again? It is far too soon to say that. We have

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to bear in mind there is a judicial inquiry and it will have more power

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and it will take much longer. The full picture will not emerge until

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that inquiry is complete. You have heard on the news there was a comic

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about you being a close friend of Rebekah Brooks, you are on her face

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that page. I am shocked you have a face that paid. I have 570 friends

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on Facebook, whether or not Rebekah Brooks is still one of them I still

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doubt. But you are not closely connected. I have been doing this

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breed in one capacity or another for 10 years. I have met almost

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every major figure in the media. This story appeared in the

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Independent on Sunday. I have met Alexander Lebedev, but he is not a

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friend on Facebook. Thank you very much. We are on to the papers as

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:14:22.:14:23.

promised. Lots of front pages. One of the interesting themes is the

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papers are trying to get News of the World readers. This is the

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first time we have not had the News of the World to show you. The

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Sunday Mirror. His paper costs just 50 pence. Ashley is at it again.

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The Mail on Sunday, this paper costs less than �1. They are

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talking about Sarah's law. Now there is a different campaign. The

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Sunday People. It is for people like you, prayer to be independent,

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proud to put you first. On the other front page a very big story

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about the boss of the Metropolitan Police. Paul Stephenson got �12,000

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of help and care after he had been ill. Also a row with Gordon Brown.

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The Sunday Telegraph, please focus on James Murdoch's role in the

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cover up and much more besides, but very clever and well plugged in.

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:15:36.:15:38.

And you all for joining us. Where The Observer have got a full page

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lead-up of questions that Rebekah Brooks, James and Rupert Murdoch

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should be asked. When did you become aware of the 2009 payments

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:15:59.:16:00.

authorised by your son James... For example. It is strong stuff. It is

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open season on the Murdoch empire and obviously this is Chapter 1.

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has been a terrific fortnight for Ed Miliband, when you get even the

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Sunday Telegraph saying Ed Miliband thrives as growing storm and Golfs

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Cameron. It has been zero to hero coverage. He was being thoroughly

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trashed Until this began, and he has been ahead in the demands he

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has been making. Today's demand that they should be cross-party

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agreement on new media ownership laws, and we should go back perhaps

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to the laws Thatcher broke to allow Murdoch to acquire such an enormous

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empire. The laws they have in America, where you can't have one

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:16:56.:16:57.

man as super dominant as he has become. you are one of the few

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people who has interviewed Rupert Murdoch at the BBC, but the Sunday

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Times is a good newspaper. He has built proper businesses, there is

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no doubt about that, and I was struck by this piece in the

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Observer. It is by Peter Preston, a former editor of the Guardian no

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less, the paper that has led the way on this story. He would have

:17:23.:17:29.

thought it would be full of bitter criticism, absolutely not. Warm,

:17:29.:17:35.

open-hearted, generous. This is Rupert Murdoch he is talking about?

:17:35.:17:39.

Exactly. There is a much truncated list of good things you could say

:17:39.:17:43.

about Rupert but it is crazy amid the grey wash of righteousness to

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pretend they don't exist. And he goes through them. He says Rupert

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has subsidised the Times, he has improved the Wall Street Journal,

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and created BSkyB. You think Rupert would be delighted by this,

:17:59.:18:04.

wouldn't he? Not quite because when you get to the end you can see this

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is about pity, and Rupert will hate being pitted, in particular by

:18:09.:18:15.

Peter Preston. In the end, he says "this is an old charismatic leader

:18:15.:18:23.

struggling to adjust in an empire full complexity". I remember as an

:18:24.:18:30.

editor of the Daily Telegraph in 1986, we all knew we would never

:18:30.:18:34.

have made the breakthrough into profitability if Rupert had not

:18:34.:18:39.

fought the battle in Wapping for the whole industry. As you have

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just been saying, the Times and the Sunday Times, God only knows what

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happens if Ed Miliband gets his way and the Empire is broken up.

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Everyone has known for years the Murdoch empire has been able to

:18:53.:18:58.

maintain a culture of fear which has been fundamentally unhealthy.

:18:58.:19:02.

We have all seen by ministers trembling before the power of

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Rupert and this is not healthy in a democracy. In it started with John

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Major. He said quite specifically he knew he was done for the moment

:19:11.:19:17.

Rupert Murdoch gave him the thumbs down. The whole idea was that

:19:17.:19:21.

Rupert Murdoch decided who would be prime minister. It is not

:19:21.:19:26.

necessarily true, and the analysis of how much effect it has is

:19:26.:19:30.

ambiguous, but prime ministers believed it sufficiently that they

:19:30.:19:35.

could be bullied. The extent to which David Cameron can be bullied

:19:35.:19:40.

has come out. Most shocking of all the fact emerges in the Mail on

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Sunday today that Rebekah Brooks told David Cameron to employed Andy

:19:45.:19:48.

Coulson so that he would be a direct conduit straight into the

:19:48.:19:58.
:19:58.:20:00.

heart of the evil empire. It would have been a different story it

:20:00.:20:06.

otherwise. Talking of politicians trembling, many regard this as

:20:06.:20:10.

payback time. Let's face it, it has been like shooting fish in a barrel

:20:10.:20:20.

this week, having an attack on the Murdochs. Gordon Brown, as if to

:20:20.:20:25.

underline his status as a big loser, had two pot shots at the Murdochs

:20:25.:20:31.

and got it wrong with both. The fish somehow managed to swim away.

:20:31.:20:37.

First he alleged they had access to the medical files of his son, that

:20:37.:20:45.

was proven to be rubbish, then he said that they hired known

:20:45.:20:52.

criminals to look at his tax files, and that was denied today. It is a

:20:52.:20:56.

shame for Gordon when he should be getting his revenge, he has fluffed

:20:56.:21:03.

his lines again. After the criminal hacking, there he was schmoozing

:21:03.:21:09.

with Rebekah Brooks again. There is this notion that there is a tight

:21:09.:21:15.

little circle of people schmoozing and drinking, and that is where the

:21:15.:21:22.

real power is. This paper has been talking about the Chipping Norton

:21:22.:21:32.

said. I don't know if you have been to any of these parties? I remember

:21:32.:21:36.

seeing everyone on the terrace drinking Murdoch champagne, but out

:21:36.:21:40.

on the lawn 20 yards out is the prime minister with Rupert Murdoch.

:21:40.:21:46.

This went on for 45 minutes, and guests were lead over to meet them.

:21:46.:21:54.

If I had been advising David Cameron, I would have said you must

:21:54.:22:03.

be mad. I thought David Cameron was badly advised to get himself into

:22:03.:22:08.

that posture, just as he was out of his mind to go to dinner at Rebekah

:22:08.:22:18.
:22:18.:22:20.

Brooks's home when these scandals were ongoing. They just need to

:22:20.:22:25.

show common sense, which is what has been missing. I think it has

:22:25.:22:30.

damaged him enormously. It is interesting he has been like Teflon

:22:30.:22:37.

until now but he has been profoundly unnerved, as he should.

:22:37.:22:41.

I think the police are the other really big part of this story.

:22:41.:22:45.

don't think the British public has ever had a high opinion of the

:22:45.:22:48.

media at the best of the Times, and they may be appalled and disgusted

:22:48.:22:53.

by what is going on but maybe not shocked. The police is a different

:22:53.:23:01.

kettle of fish. This Sunday Times story about the Metropolitan boss

:23:01.:23:11.
:23:11.:23:12.

taking a freebie. There has been stories about senior officers, an

:23:12.:23:16.

alarming number, it is a dirty business and I think it is more

:23:16.:23:20.

serious than the press end of this because we need to believe the

:23:20.:23:26.

police are honest and efficient. Would you agree with that?

:23:27.:23:32.

Definitely. What surprised me is when Rebekah Brooks appeared before

:23:32.:23:36.

that select committee, several years ago now, can you remember she

:23:36.:23:40.

admitted they had paid police officers. I thought that was a

:23:40.:23:44.

damning confession. Why was that not followed up on both sides of

:23:44.:23:52.

the fence? Because everybody knows lots of newspapers did. I think she

:23:52.:23:58.

didn't even realise it was illegal. It wasn't until she got back to her

:23:58.:24:05.

lawyer's and they said to her she should rescind bit, then she said

:24:05.:24:10.

she didn't know anything about it. They thought it was just a perk of

:24:10.:24:15.

the job. This is an international story, and you have an

:24:15.:24:20.

international angle. You us, whether or not the whole Murdoch

:24:20.:24:24.

Empire survives will depend on the American shareholders and how on

:24:24.:24:29.

earth they are by the sight of this. If it turns out that one rather

:24:29.:24:34.

slender allegation that the 9/11 victims' families were hacked, he

:24:34.:24:38.

is toast and we don't know where that is going, but even without

:24:38.:24:42.

that it appears American shareholders are saying hang on,

:24:42.:24:45.

this family run business looks pretty ropey. He may lose

:24:45.:24:50.

everything. American corporate law is much tougher than in this

:24:50.:24:56.

country. Rupert Murdoch could be in big trouble. If there is one bit of

:24:56.:25:00.

evidence that somehow or either the police have been suborned in New

:25:01.:25:06.

York or victims of horror shows like 9/11 have had their phones

:25:06.:25:10.

tapped, the full weight of the liberal establishment will pour

:25:10.:25:15.

down on Murdoch and I think he will struggle to cope with that.

:25:15.:25:19.

just the liberal establishment, the Republicans will be there as well.

:25:19.:25:25.

Let's move on to other stories. were talking about international

:25:25.:25:30.

stories, there is just one I have got a mention. It is my favourite

:25:30.:25:37.

of the week. This is the cheekiest piece of journalism. On Thursday,

:25:37.:25:42.

who turns up in the Financial Times being asked to write his assessment

:25:42.:25:48.

of Rupert Murdoch? None other than Conrad Black, a convicted criminal

:25:48.:25:53.

who was about to go back to jail. There he is sitting in judgment. I

:25:53.:25:59.

thought it was fantastically cheeky. He does it with style, saying

:25:59.:26:05.

"Murdoch bashing has until recently generally been a disreputable

:26:05.:26:11.

activity engaged in by the envious, the far left, and the commercially

:26:11.:26:18.

on competitive. Well that is now all over so it is open season". He

:26:18.:26:23.

finishes with a flourish, saying "Murdoch has been assiduously

:26:23.:26:28.

kissing undercarriage of the rulers of Beijing for years". We have to

:26:28.:26:35.

face the fact that most newspaper powers, if they don't start of

:26:35.:26:43.

March, they end up mad. Their roots, bizarrely, a world beyond the

:26:43.:26:48.

Murdoch empire so let's have a quick nod at that. I the British

:26:48.:26:53.

force was too weak to defeat the Taliban, say MPs. I am bound to say

:26:53.:26:58.

some of us were writing again and again in 2006 this is a doomed

:26:58.:27:03.

venture, I called it gesture strategy. They have caught up with

:27:03.:27:09.

the reality that the commitment in Helmand was ill judged. The other

:27:09.:27:13.

story is the economy, I think. Without doubt. History will look

:27:13.:27:18.

back and say here was the world teetering on the edge. The European

:27:18.:27:25.

economy in chaos, who knows which way it will go? The American

:27:25.:27:32.

economy in great doubt. A very good story in the Observer talking about

:27:32.:27:37.

how may be what is going on across Europe is just a handy alibi to

:27:37.:27:41.

cover up the extent to which George Osborne has strangled Arrow and

:27:41.:27:45.

economic recovery and made matters much worse here. I'm in danger of

:27:45.:27:54.

agreeing with folly so I must review my position on the spot she

:27:54.:28:00.

is right. While this soap opera that is the Murdoch family goes on,

:28:00.:28:06.

extraordinary things are happening in Europe. Greece is going to

:28:06.:28:11.

default, that is for sure, Ireland hangs on by a thread, and Italy has

:28:11.:28:16.

had to impose a new package of measures, 48 billion euros of

:28:16.:28:20.

austerity and that country is sliding towards the chaos we have

:28:20.:28:23.

seen in Athens and clearly Berlusconi is not the man to rescue

:28:23.:28:33.

the country. The school run story very briefly. A nice column in the

:28:33.:28:38.

Observer, should Dave and Nick Clegg be doing the school run at

:28:38.:28:41.

all? What were they doing mucking about taking the children to

:28:41.:28:47.

school? We want them to be sorted out the country. We only scratched

:28:47.:28:52.

the surface of some great Sunday newspapers. There have been so many

:28:52.:28:57.

great stories, thank you. Over to the weather. Torrential rain in

:28:57.:29:03.

London yesterday. If it rains on St Swithin's Day, it will rain for 40

:29:03.:29:10.

days, so says the legend. St Swithun's Day was Friday, July 15th,

:29:10.:29:19.

It is not set to rain non-stop for the next 40 days but it is looking

:29:19.:29:24.

pretty mixed. Today there will be rain or showers which could be

:29:24.:29:32.

heavy for most of the UK. Persistent rain at times affecting

:29:32.:29:37.

West and Scotland, Northern Ireland, northern England, later pushing

:29:37.:29:41.

into northern Wales and the Midlands. For everyone else it is a

:29:41.:29:46.

mixture of sunshine and showers. Quite cool for July, temperatures

:29:46.:29:51.

up to 20 degrees. Tonight low- pressure throws in more rain across

:29:51.:29:56.

much of Scotland, Northern Ireland and later into the Midlands and

:29:56.:30:00.

Wales as well. Mild and breezy, temperatures staying in double

:30:00.:30:06.

figures. From Monday, still a mixed picture across the UK, Western

:30:06.:30:12.

Areas more prone to seeing persistent rain. For the rest again

:30:12.:30:17.

it is deja-vu, a mixture of sunny spells and showers. A breezy and it

:30:17.:30:27.

will stay cool again, temperatures firmly fixed in the teens. That it

:30:27.:30:36.

We were discussing earlier on one group who have very serious

:30:36.:30:39.

questions to answer by the Metropolitan Police whose

:30:39.:30:44.

investigations into phone hacking was so half-hearted for so long and

:30:44.:30:47.

twos officers seem to be so closely connected to the Rupert Murdoch

:30:48.:30:52.

empire they were meant to be scrutinising. I am joined by Yvette

:30:52.:30:59.

Cooper. Good morning and welcome. Good morning. You have seen yet

:31:00.:31:03.

more allegations about police officers taking money and being

:31:03.:31:07.

very close to the Rupert Murdoch people as well. What is your

:31:07.:31:11.

assessment about the scale of the crisis by the Metropolitan Police

:31:11.:31:17.

this morning. We have got a drip, drip now of allegations and

:31:17.:31:20.

information that raises serious questions. I have been calling for

:31:20.:31:25.

some time for full disclosure from the Metropolitan Police, for them

:31:25.:31:28.

to be open and transparent about all of their links with News of the

:31:28.:31:33.

World. I think they should do that, they should have done so already.

:31:33.:31:37.

The trip means there is a cloud created over the Metropolitan

:31:37.:31:43.

Police because of this. I think both the leadership and the Home

:31:43.:31:46.

Secretary need to take some action now to make sure you can resolve

:31:46.:31:50.

this for the future. You cannot have this sort of thing tarnishing

:31:50.:31:54.

the reputation of the Met. Do you think Sir Paul Stephenson is now

:31:54.:31:59.

fatally damaged? I think he needs to act now to restore confidence in

:31:59.:32:04.

the leadership of the Met. That includes full disclosure,

:32:04.:32:07.

recognising mistakes that have been made and setting out action for the

:32:07.:32:11.

future. I hope he can do that. But I also think the Home Secretary

:32:11.:32:16.

needs to do that as well. This is partly her responsibility, what the

:32:16.:32:20.

confidence is in British policing. She should be demanding for

:32:20.:32:23.

disclosure and she should be setting out what action the Met

:32:23.:32:27.

knees to take to restore that confidence. At the moment she is

:32:27.:32:30.

saying all of this can wait until the judicial inquiry. It cannot

:32:30.:32:35.

possibly wait for what could be years for conclusions from the

:32:35.:32:39.

judicial inquiry. We need is to be resolved now so that police

:32:39.:32:43.

officers across the country can get on with their job without their

:32:43.:32:47.

reputation being affected. This is a difficult situation because the

:32:47.:32:53.

people running the Met are responsible for huge issues, the

:32:53.:32:56.

anti-terrorism affairs, the future of the policing of the Olympics,

:32:56.:33:02.

never mind the day-to-day running of law and order around London. We

:33:02.:33:07.

now have a group of people who are being got at day after day in the

:33:07.:33:13.

newspapers with serious allegations. We both need them, or people like

:33:13.:33:20.

them, and yet they are all in deep trouble, aren't they? The important

:33:20.:33:24.

thing is you have got to have confidence in the way policing is

:33:24.:33:30.

taking place. There has got to be public respect for policing as well.

:33:30.:33:33.

I've been Sir Paul Stephenson has been doing a good job in fighting

:33:33.:33:37.

crime in London, but he needs to act on this now, but so too does

:33:37.:33:41.

the Home Secretary. She needs to demonstrate it she has got full

:33:41.:33:44.

disclosure and full answers to these questions which we have not

:33:44.:33:49.

yet seen publicly. And also that she has continued confidence in the

:33:49.:33:53.

Met, but if so she needs to say so and not simply hide and wait for

:33:53.:34:01.

this to go away. For example, the question about the Met taking on

:34:01.:34:05.

Neil Wallace, the deputy editor of the News of the World, that is a

:34:05.:34:11.

very questionable employment judgment. There are important to

:34:11.:34:16.

answer these questions, but it is important about Downing Street

:34:16.:34:20.

employing the editor of the News of the World. The Home Secretary is

:34:20.:34:26.

not pursuing this, I hope it is not because she is reticent because the

:34:26.:34:30.

same cloud hangs over Downing Street as well. Surely the

:34:30.:34:34.

difference is that Neil was's employment was generally not know

:34:34.:34:42.

it either by politicians or buy anybody else at the time? We have

:34:42.:34:47.

got that allegations about the resort, again involving the same

:34:47.:34:52.

individual. What is your view about that? You are right, transparency

:34:53.:34:56.

is at the heart of that, but we do not have transparency Bonn the

:34:56.:35:02.

Prime Minister and what security checks that he did on taking on

:35:02.:35:05.

Andy Coulson, just as we do not have those answers from the Met

:35:05.:35:10.

about Neil Wallace. I do think there are still questions for

:35:10.:35:15.

Downing Street. On the issue of the stories in the front page of the

:35:15.:35:18.

Sunday Times, we have not had answers on that one. That looks

:35:18.:35:21.

like a separate issue from the questions about hacking, but we do

:35:21.:35:26.

not know the answers yet. What is important you have the full

:35:26.:35:30.

disclosure, you have the full information, but I have not seen

:35:30.:35:33.

the answers to those questions, but I think the Home Secretary should

:35:33.:35:37.

have made sure that she has seen the answers to the questions. She

:35:37.:35:41.

cannot just leave this to the judicial enquiry. She needs to make

:35:41.:35:45.

sure we can all have confidence in the work the Met is doing. Labour

:35:45.:35:50.

is having a good campaign so far or all of this and yet there was

:35:50.:35:57.

nobody who was closer and keener to sell Cup to Rupert Murdoch and his

:35:57.:36:01.

editors in the old days then you former boss Gordon Brown, you

:36:01.:36:05.

former leader Tony Blair. Any thoughts about Labour's

:36:05.:36:12.

embarrassment about getting so close to people you are now

:36:12.:36:17.

castigating and excoriating? Miliband has said there should have

:36:17.:36:22.

been stronger questioning in the past. The relationship between the

:36:22.:36:26.

press and politics, as well as the relationship between the press and

:36:26.:36:31.

the plays, is one which should have exposed earlier. That is why it is

:36:31.:36:35.

right that Ed Miliband has now been talking about the importance of

:36:35.:36:37.

addressing this cross-media ownership issue that was not dealt

:36:37.:36:44.

with, was not talked about, before. He is right to say we should have

:36:44.:36:48.

stronger controls on cross-media ownership. That is what we will be

:36:49.:36:53.

put into the judicial inquiry. We should not have those sorts of

:36:53.:36:55.

concentrations of media power and we have to learn lessons from what

:36:55.:37:00.

has happened, not simply have two wakes up outrage when we do not

:37:00.:37:05.

take action for the future. I used uprise Andy Coulson was invited to

:37:05.:37:09.

Chequers after he left the employment of Number 10? Very

:37:09.:37:13.

surprised. It raises further questions about the judgment of the

:37:13.:37:19.

prime minister, we know he was warned against taking on Andy

:37:19.:37:23.

Coulson and taking him into Downing Street by a whole series of very

:37:24.:37:28.

senior people, including the Lib Dems, including in the media and

:37:28.:37:32.

the newspapers. He chose to do so and he has chosen to continue that

:37:32.:37:36.

connection sense. It raises questions about what they discuss,

:37:36.:37:42.

just as it raises questions about what was discussed at BSkyB and the

:37:42.:37:46.

continued contact with News International as well. Any friendly

:37:46.:37:50.

advice for Gordon Brown whose intervention was scarcely helpful.

:37:50.:37:54.

He is clearly angry about all sorts of things, and yet he seems to be

:37:54.:37:58.

made the allegations which are either impossible to substantiate

:37:58.:38:03.

or he has not be able to substantiate. I have not seen the

:38:03.:38:07.

information Gordon Brown says he has one of these things. I do know

:38:07.:38:10.

that for him and for the whole family it was very distressing to

:38:10.:38:16.

have to deal with the things that were being said and being written

:38:16.:38:20.

in the newspapers about the health of their son. I think that did

:38:20.:38:25.

cause great distress for them and he has talked about information he

:38:25.:38:29.

has and I have not seen that, but these are the reasons why we need

:38:29.:38:32.

this judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of all of that. Yvette

:38:32.:38:36.

Cooper, thank you very much for joining us.

:38:36.:38:39.

It has been a foundation shaking time for the Rupert Murdoch empire,

:38:40.:38:44.

but the scandal has also sent shock waves to the rest of the

:38:44.:38:49.

establishment. I am joined by the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

:38:49.:38:54.

Welcome. Can I start with the business of cross-media ownership?

:38:54.:38:57.

A lot of people, not just in the Labour Party, are saying this is

:38:57.:39:02.

the moment where we should ensure that nobody ever again is quite so

:39:02.:39:07.

Dominic in the media world in this country. What is your view of that?

:39:07.:39:12.

I think it is undoubtedly true that when you give up one individual, or

:39:12.:39:16.

a small number of people, a huge amount of power without proper

:39:16.:39:21.

accountability, things go wrong. That has happened here as it does

:39:21.:39:25.

in other walks of life. We need to look again in the round at the

:39:25.:39:30.

plurality rules to make sure there is proper plurality in the British

:39:30.:39:35.

press. A healthy press is a diverse one, where you have got lots of

:39:35.:39:40.

different organisations competing. That is what we need. But even if

:39:40.:39:44.

you get the plurality rules right, which I hope we do, and we have

:39:44.:39:48.

been calling for it for years, none of that will matter an issue also

:39:49.:39:52.

hold people to account in the media. At the moment you have the

:39:52.:39:56.

ludicrous situation where you have editors of national newspapers who

:39:56.:39:59.

make or break the reputation of innocent individuals in the blink

:40:00.:40:04.

of an eye, and yet they themselves are not held independently to

:40:04.:40:14.

account. It is even worse. If anything goes wrong, the editors

:40:14.:40:18.

decide how things in the press should be pleased. In no other walk

:40:18.:40:22.

of life do you have people acting as judge and jury. That needs to

:40:22.:40:27.

stop and change. Let me be clear about the plurality issue. It would

:40:27.:40:32.

have to be enshrined in legislation. Would you be prepared and be

:40:32.:40:35.

sitting down with Ed Miliband who has called for the same sort of

:40:35.:40:42.

thing? As I say, my party has been calling for a long time for a

:40:42.:40:48.

change. Are you happy to sit with people? I am very happy to sit with

:40:48.:40:53.

people. The inquiry we have set up will produce ideas about what we

:40:53.:40:58.

should do. If we can act on it on a cross-party basis, as we did last

:40:58.:41:02.

week in the house of Commons, all the better. Let me give you one

:41:02.:41:06.

specific proposal. At the moment you can only apply this test of

:41:06.:41:10.

plurality, whether there is enough diversity, when you have a business

:41:10.:41:15.

transaction when you have got to examine. I do not see why that test

:41:15.:41:19.

is not applied all the time. There might be changes in the way the

:41:19.:41:24.

media operates whereby one operation gets bigger. At the

:41:24.:41:28.

moment the plurality test cannot be applied in those circumstances.

:41:28.:41:32.

That presumably would mean if a newspaper became more successful

:41:32.:41:37.

because it was a good newspaper, it could suddenly be too successful.

:41:37.:41:41.

The main focus is cross-media ownership and with the new media

:41:41.:41:44.

that are growing up and developing that is what you need to look at.

:41:44.:41:50.

That is what the inquiry will do. But the point I am trying to make

:41:50.:41:53.

is whether it is the plurality tests or the fitness test, it is

:41:53.:41:58.

being applied in a very snapshot way. We need to look at the way in

:41:58.:42:03.

which concentrations of power might evolve over time. I think a lot of

:42:03.:42:06.

good can come out of this if we are brave enough to look at the rules

:42:06.:42:11.

on competition and plurality and who is fit and proper to run our

:42:11.:42:16.

media organisations. To allow the inquiry independently to make

:42:16.:42:19.

recommendations, because you do not want politicians to be in charge

:42:19.:42:25.

entirely. What about foreign ownership? The Americans have got

:42:25.:42:29.

very strong rules about people who can control their media. We do not

:42:29.:42:33.

and we do not even have strong rules about whether people have to

:42:33.:42:37.

pay taxes on that. I think Rupert Murdoch is a US citizen because he

:42:37.:42:42.

needed to become a US citizen in order to own Fox News. I think this

:42:42.:42:47.

is a complex area because you cannot impose those nationality

:42:47.:42:52.

rules within the European Union. It is a complex area. Of course it is

:42:52.:42:57.

a legitimate area we should look at, but this key thing of plurality,

:42:57.:43:04.

diversity and accountability so you have independent regulation, not

:43:04.:43:09.

regulation which is in the gift of politicians. I do not want to live

:43:09.:43:12.

in a country where politicians Bill comfortable with the press, that

:43:12.:43:19.

would be a disaster. But that is very difficult. You are taking a

:43:19.:43:23.

different line from Ed Miliband he says he wants a continuation of

:43:23.:43:27.

self regulation. You are saying it should be statutory regulation. A

:43:27.:43:32.

lot of people cannot see how you can have a statutory system that is

:43:32.:43:35.

properly outside the purview of politicians, that politicians

:43:35.:43:42.

cannot get at. Every time there has been a crisis in different pillars

:43:42.:43:44.

of the established but the response sensibly has been to give more

:43:44.:43:48.

power to people who are independent of those people who have got into

:43:48.:43:53.

trouble. When the MPs got into trouble, the response was to take

:43:53.:43:57.

all responsibility for their pay and expenses out of their hands

:43:57.:44:02.

into an independent body. What has been the response after the banking

:44:02.:44:07.

crisis? Independent regulators are given more power. I do not see why

:44:07.:44:10.

the press should be unique in having a so-called ethics committee

:44:10.:44:15.

overseeing had the code of conduct for editors works. The only people

:44:15.:44:20.

on it are editors of newspapers. In no other walk of life would you

:44:20.:44:24.

have people acting as judge and jury for their own mistakes.

:44:24.:44:27.

have talked about politicians and the press, but we have not talked

:44:27.:44:30.

about the police. There is a perception that the police have

:44:30.:44:34.

been on the take from the bottom to the top. Are you worried about

:44:34.:44:41.

this? I am incredibly worried. From the public's point of view, the

:44:41.:44:44.

fact that their cynicism in politicians and the press might

:44:44.:44:49.

have deepened is not entirely surprising. I think when that

:44:49.:44:52.

public stats losing faith in the police it is much more serious and

:44:52.:44:56.

we are in some trouble. That is why I think it is very important the

:44:57.:45:01.

commission should answer the questions that have been put to

:45:01.:45:05.

them and answer the questions very fully. You mean Sir Paul Stephens

:45:05.:45:13.

and. Yes. You think his position is tenable still? I am not going to

:45:13.:45:16.

judge them now until they have given the reassurances and the

:45:17.:45:21.

answers to the questions that have been put to them. The questions

:45:21.:45:31.
:45:31.:45:31.

need to be answered very fully and The coalition has had a rough week,

:45:31.:45:39.

a rough few weeks on this. Yes, the Liberal Democrats were protesting

:45:39.:45:44.

about Rupert Murdoch in the old days, partly because you were too

:45:44.:45:49.

small a party for them to court, I suspect! How uncomfortable are you

:45:49.:45:54.

with the way David Cameron has behaved around Andy Coulson? Did

:45:54.:45:59.

you say to him yourself you should not employed this man?

:45:59.:46:03.

anxieties as a party about the hacking allegations, Andy Coulson

:46:03.:46:08.

and so on, we made them publicly before the election. Nobody should

:46:08.:46:13.

be surprised we came at this from different standpoints. The Prime

:46:13.:46:17.

Minister has explained why he gave Andy Coulson what he calls a second

:46:17.:46:25.

chance. We did discuss it, of course we did. Did you say to him...

:46:26.:46:32.

If you don't mind, I am not going to give you a word-for-word account.

:46:32.:46:38.

It was an issue we raised publicly before. Ray used by you? Of course,

:46:38.:46:44.

David Cameron and myself spoke about it. At the end of the day, it

:46:44.:46:48.

was his appointment, he has explained the reasons why he made

:46:48.:46:52.

that appointment. And you got the impression he wasn't going to

:46:52.:46:57.

flinch on this matter, it was personal and he wasn't going to

:46:57.:47:01.

change? He explained why he did it and the circumstances in which he

:47:01.:47:08.

did it. Vince Cable lost a large part of his job for saying he was

:47:08.:47:13.

going to war on Murdoch and he must now feel vindicated and you must

:47:13.:47:18.

ask yourself why he was booted out of that part of his role. I don't

:47:18.:47:23.

think it is down to the feelings of any one politician. This is down to

:47:23.:47:31.

a crisis in public confidence. We have the banking crisis, a total

:47:31.:47:38.

collapse of basic decency in the way the press conduct themselves,

:47:38.:47:43.

and we need to make sure we get something good coming up out of all

:47:43.:47:46.

this would create greater distance between politicians and the press,

:47:46.:47:53.

and make sure we have a healthy, free, plural, accountable press.

:47:53.:47:58.

you think you had enough influence at the early stage in the coalition,

:47:58.:48:02.

thinking of Andy Coulson, the NHS and many other issues, where you

:48:02.:48:07.

seemed to have a deal which looked relatively equitable and yet as

:48:07.:48:11.

things have turned out, your party has been brushed to one side?

:48:11.:48:17.

don't agree. If you look at things that have happened in this country,

:48:17.:48:22.

whether it is taking over a million people out of paying income tax

:48:22.:48:25.

altogether, whether it is more money to children from

:48:25.:48:31.

disadvantaged backgrounds, you entitlement to young toddlers from

:48:31.:48:35.

three childcare, sweeping away a barrage of legislation which eroded

:48:35.:48:38.

civil liberties, renewing and refreshing the way we do politics,

:48:38.:48:46.

these things are Liberal Democrats. Some people say either Lib Dems

:48:46.:48:51.

have too much influence or the Conservatives do, that is the

:48:51.:48:55.

nature of coalition. Do you think the last two weeks has changed the

:48:55.:48:59.

nature of the coalition? He it has changed fundamentally the way in

:48:59.:49:04.

which the political class and the media class Interact, and hopefully

:49:04.:49:08.

it will create greater accountability. You are charmingly

:49:08.:49:12.

not answering the question I asked, which was what about relationships

:49:12.:49:19.

inside the coalition? Relationships evolve all the time. Have the last

:49:19.:49:24.

few weeks changed it? A sharp spotlight has been cast on a very

:49:24.:49:30.

murky part of the Establishment, interactions between the

:49:30.:49:37.

establishment, the press and the police. This will have been

:49:37.:49:42.

improved because of events over the last two weeks. From where you are

:49:42.:49:47.

standing, those relationships, the Conservative Party, Rebekah Brooks,

:49:47.:49:53.

the Murdochs, the Labour Party, Rebekah Brooks, the Murdochs, that

:49:53.:49:58.

was unhealthy, it had to change? have always been a staunch critic

:49:59.:50:05.

of the tendency of Labour and Conservative to constantly fall to

:50:06.:50:10.

their knees obsequiously towards very powerful vested interests in

:50:10.:50:15.

the media. That I hope will change. If anyone had doubt about the

:50:15.:50:20.

fundamental judgment of this coalition government to deal with

:50:20.:50:24.

another of the crisis, namely the crisis in our public finances, look

:50:24.:50:29.

at what is happening across the Channel. This is very important,

:50:29.:50:33.

look at what is happening in the United States about wrangling on

:50:33.:50:38.

the debt ceiling. I wish it was otherwise, but surely there can be

:50:38.:50:43.

no one left now who agrees the fundamental decision, the biggest

:50:43.:50:47.

decision this coalition took, that we needed to Yank this country back

:50:47.:50:54.

from the precipice and into an area of greater economic safety. If the

:50:54.:50:57.

Murdoch story happened, we would be talking about nothing apart from

:50:57.:51:03.

what is going on in the euro-zone and America. How worried are you

:51:03.:51:07.

that we are on the edge of another serious global financial crisis?

:51:07.:51:12.

Incredibly worried. The gravity of the uncertainty in the United

:51:12.:51:17.

States, which is a product of political gridlock, and the growing

:51:17.:51:22.

fiscal crisis in the euro-zone is immensely serious. If anyone thinks

:51:22.:51:32.
:51:32.:51:34.

somehow we can wash our hands of it and say -- and turn our backs on it,

:51:34.:51:40.

we can't. I believe we should play an active role behind the scenes to

:51:40.:51:44.

help euro-zone members to make the reforms necessary to create a

:51:44.:51:49.

strong prosperous euro-zone in the future. It is worse than that

:51:49.:51:54.

however, is it not? The Office of budget responsibility report looks

:51:54.:52:04.

ahead to an era of 40 years of Viva considerably higher taxes or a

:52:04.:52:12.

smaller state, or both. That is why I know that although many of the

:52:12.:52:19.

decisions we have taken around popular, they have been taken to

:52:19.:52:24.

avoid long-term problems. Whether it is pensions, public services,

:52:24.:52:27.

the balance between taxing and spending, how we deal with the

:52:27.:52:32.

deficit, these are big decisions we have taken now because if you don't

:52:32.:52:37.

sort it now, our children and grandchildren will be the victim of

:52:38.:52:43.

the mistakes and the failure of this generation to sort things out.

:52:43.:52:47.

What, in essence, does Rupert Murdoch have to say to the House of

:52:47.:52:52.

Commons on Tuesday? He needs to come absolutely clean about what he

:52:52.:52:58.

knew, about what his senior executives knew, and why this

:52:58.:53:02.

culture of industrial scale corruption, so it is alleged,

:53:02.:53:06.

happened without anyone higher up taking responsibility for it.

:53:06.:53:12.

have got a kicking again in the papers today for doing the school

:53:12.:53:19.

run. Let me let you into a secret, which I suspect many fathers feel,

:53:19.:53:23.

I like being with my children and I love having the opportunity to take

:53:24.:53:33.
:53:34.:53:34.

them on the school run. This is 2011, not 1911, and the idea that

:53:34.:53:38.

fathers can't remain dedicated his in attitude that belongs in a

:53:38.:53:44.

previous century. Thank you for joining us. Now the news headlines.

:53:44.:53:47.

A deputy prime minister has said politicians should be brave enough

:53:47.:53:52.

to look again at the rules on media ownership to ensure plurality and

:53:52.:53:56.

competition. Nick Clegg was responding to a call from Ed

:53:56.:54:02.

Miliband for a change in the law to stop any one proprietor from owning

:54:02.:54:06.

as many newspapers as Rupert Murdoch. News International is

:54:06.:54:10.

currently under investigation for phone hacking at the News of the

:54:10.:54:14.

World. The company has placed another set of adverts in this

:54:14.:54:17.

morning's newspapers saying it is committed to putting right what has

:54:17.:54:21.

gone wrong. The MoD says a soldier from the

:54:21.:54:26.

Royal Lancers has been killed in Afghanistan. His family has been

:54:26.:54:30.

informed. The soldier was on a joint patrol with the Afghan

:54:30.:54:34.

National Army in Helmand province when he was shot. In investigation

:54:34.:54:39.

is being carried out into reports he was fired on by an Afghan

:54:39.:54:43.

National Army soldier. The next news on BBC One is at

:54:44.:54:48.

midday, back to Andrew and guest in a moment but first a look at what

:54:48.:54:53.

is coming up after this show. Today, has Britain been corrupted?

:54:53.:54:58.

We will hear from a former top police officer. And we are asking a

:54:58.:55:03.

teacher turned porn star if we should shut up about sex. Are we

:55:03.:55:08.

too scared about offending Muslims? Go to the website to join the

:55:08.:55:12.

debate. Now, one of the most successful

:55:12.:55:17.

bands of the 1990s was the Irish quartet The Corrs. The siblings

:55:17.:55:22.

have gone their separate ways professionally, but Andrea has just

:55:22.:55:26.

released an album of cover songs. Recently she has been winning

:55:26.:55:36.

critical acclaim for her acting on stage in London. Welcome. This is

:55:36.:55:39.

an album which you say in the cover notes of one of your albums came

:55:39.:55:44.

from a dark place, and you almost turned away from music. What was

:55:44.:55:49.

that about? I kind of stopped doing it. I know it sounds dramatic what

:55:49.:55:55.

I said, but I just wanted to live a quiet and normal life. The producer

:55:55.:56:00.

of the record John Reynolds got in touch with me, and loved my voice,

:56:00.:56:06.

wanted to make a record together. So I did that. I was mentioning the

:56:06.:56:15.

acting, which has gone very well for you. will we see you back on

:56:15.:56:20.

stage Again? Yes, I hope to do it all my life. I really love it, I am

:56:20.:56:25.

passionate about it. Tell us about the song you are going to sing now.

:56:25.:56:29.

Most people know it as a Donna summer's song, State of

:56:29.:56:37.

Independence, and it is epic. An amazing song. We have had a lot of

:56:37.:56:42.

gloom and despair, but this is a happy song. Yes, but I think it is

:56:42.:56:47.

relevant actually. That is all we have got time for today. I am going

:56:47.:56:53.

filming so next week my colleague James Landale will be here and his

:56:53.:56:56.

guests include Dame Kelly Holmes and no doubt plenty of politicians.

:56:57.:57:06.
:57:07.:57:09.

For now, we leave you with Andrea # State of life, may I live, may I

:57:09.:57:12.

love # coming out the sky, I name me a

:57:12.:57:16.

name # coming out silver word for what

:57:16.:57:20.

it is # it is very nature of the sound,

:57:20.:57:30.
:57:30.:57:42.

the game Home, be the temple of your heart

:57:42.:57:46.

# home, be the body of your love # just like holy water to my lips

:57:46.:57:50.

# Yes, I do know how I survive # yes, I do know why I'm alive

:57:50.:57:53.

And be with you # day by day by day by day

:57:53.:57:57.

# Time, time again, it is said # we will hear, we will see

:57:57.:58:00.

# see it all in His wisdom hear # His truth will abound the land

:58:01.:58:04.

# this truth will abound the land # this state of independence shall

:58:04.:58:07.

# this state of independence shall # Say, yeah -e-yay, yeah-e-yo yeah-

:58:07.:58:15.

e-yay, yeah-e-yo... # Be the sound of higher love today

:58:15.:58:17.

yeah-e-yeah # Time, time again, it is said

:58:17.:58:21.

# we will hear, we will see # see it all in His wisdom hear

:58:21.:58:25.

# His truth will abound the land # this truth will abound the land

:58:25.:58:28.

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