17/07/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


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Good morning and welcome. We had planned to be at the Olympic


Stadium today, but instead we are sticking with the big story of the


week. More shock revelations from the Rupert Murdoch Empire and the


Chipping Norton said. The columnist and broadcaster Jeremy Clarkson


admits this morning that they used to drink cocktails made from


crushed Socialists and talk about taking her over the BBC before


Rupert Murdoch joined us on a live video feed from his private


volcano's stroking a white cat. It is extremely worrying, it is just


possible it is a joke. But it has been an amazing week and to talk


about the fall-out I am joined for today's paper review by one of the


very few people close to Rupert Murdoch, Sky News Business


presenter Jeff Randall, Polly Toynbee and the former editor of


the Telegraph and Evening Standard, Max Hastings. It has been a real


what next week in politics. Terrible for Rupert Murdoch's


newspaper and television companies while some of his rivals are


gloating like mad. This is the Independent on Sunday, they take on


a once famous front page about Neil Kinnock from the Sun newspaper. As


a Labour calls for new laws to ensure no individual every game has


so much power in Britain's media, a lot of attention is moving to the


role of the police as the saga unfolds. As the Government is


buffeted by a firestorm of revelations, which I joined this


morning by the Deputy Prime Minister whose Lib Dem colleagues


are formally asking whether the owners of BSkyB are fit and proper


people to run a television company in the UK. The hottest ticket in


town will be for the Commons committee room where Mr Murdoch,


his son James and Rebekah Brooks will be questioned by MPs on


Tuesday. The man sharing that session is the Conservative MP John


Whittingdale and he is with me as well. Labour have been enjoying all


of this and I will be joined by the shadow Home Secretary a debt Cooper.


I wonder if she has any regrets about Labour's once cosy


relationship with Rupert Murdoch. And some music, Donna Summer that


is. Andrea Corr and her band are going to play as out with a


wonderful cover of a great 1980s High-volume, cold morning. First,


the news. The Labour leader Ed Miliband is


calling for a change in the law to stop anyone proprietor from owning


as many newspapers and broadcasters as Rupert Murdoch. The effect of


the proposal would be to force the break-up of News International,


currently under investigation for phone hacking. The company has


placed another set of adverts in today's newspapers, saying it is


committed to putting right what has gone wrong.


He in an article in today's observe her Ed Miliband said Rupert Murdoch


had too much power over public life. He said the concentration of media


ownership in one person's hands was and healthier. The message from


News International is in many of today's newspapers. It says there


should be no place to hide from a police investigation into phone


hacking. There is more pressure to bear on Metropolitan Police


Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson who has already come under fire for


his close links with News International. Scotland Yard said


he stayed for five weeks at a resort whilst recovering from a leg


injury. The cost of accommodation and meals was paid for by the boss,


a family friend. One of the PR advisers was Neil Wallace, the


former News of the World Jenise questioned by police on Friday. The


Met Police said the commissioner was unaware of that until yesterday.


Links between the media and politicians are also under scrutiny.


John Whittingdale has confirmed that former News International


executive Rebekah Brooks is one of hiscontacts. She has been summoned


to give evidence to the committee on Tuesday. Mr Whittingdale said he


would not call her a friend. The Ministry of Defence says a


soldier from the Royal Lancers has been killed while on duty in


Afghanistan. His family has been informed. An army spokesman said


the soldier was on a joint patrol with the Afghan National Army in


Helmand Province when he was shot. An investigation is being carried


out into reports that he was barred on by an Afghan National Army


soldier. MPs are warning that pulling


British troops out of Afghanistan prematurely could weaken remaining


forces. The Commons defence committee believes David Cameron's


plan to withdraw by the end of 2014 could undermine the international


coalition's strategy and they are not convinced the troops in


Afghanistan have sufficient helicopters.


On his recent visit to Helmand, the Prime Minister again made clear he


wants combat operations to finish by the end of 2014. But MPs on the


defence committee have warned against withdrawing British boys


are too quickly or too soon from Afghanistan, saner the withdrawal


was depend on the situation on the ground, and they are not sure where


their the Afghan national army and police will be ready to take over


security by then. Looking back at her the mission in Helmand began in


2006, the MPs expressed many concerns, among them that the MoD


did not anticipate sending in British troops. They are also


critical of failure to warn ministers of the dangers facing


those forces when they were first deployed under Tony Blair's


Government. They said that for three years British troops lacked


the necessary numbers and equipment after senior commanders in the UK


told the then Defence Secretary that the commanders on the ground


did not have what they needed. left our troops exposed and at risk


in a way that was unacceptable. That has to be put right. There has


got to be better communication between the military and the


politicians. The military have got to be absolutely careful not to


suppress warnings from the commanders on the ground. The MPs


also said they are not yet convinced that troops now in


Afghanistan have enough helicopters, not least after previous this year


rinses were later proved wrong. The United Nations has made the


first delivery of food and medicine to drought victims in areas of


Somalia after a ruling militants lifted an aid ban. It comes as the


famine could be formally declared in the next week by the UN. The


International Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell, has been visiting


the region and is urging other countries to do more to help. The


UK has pledged �52 million in emergency aid.


Tributes have been paid to the actor's Googie Withers who died


aged 94. She was best known for working with Arford Hitchcock


before the Second World War, but also had a successful career on


television in later life. Her unusual first name was given to her


by her nanny who struggle to say her real name, Georgette. That is


all for now. I will be back just before 10 o'clock.


We will have our regular review in a short while, but first I am


joined by the Conservative MP John Whittingdale, chair of the Commons


Committee on Culture and Media and he will be quizzing the Murdochs,


father and son, on Tuesday and Rebekah Brooks. Famously Rebekah


Brooks never gives TV interviews. But she did once talked to my


predecessor David Frost in 2001. strongly believe we are on the side


of the right, the public are behind us and we will continue to make


sure that people understand the basis of Sarah's lock, controlled


public access. That was Sarah's law, about identifying paedophiles. Now


that they have accepted John Whittingdale's invitation, what can


we expect on Tuesday? Will there be blood on the carpet in Boothroyd


Room? They have accepted your invitation, but after quite a lot


of pushing and tucking. There were some extraordinary stories that you


would have gone to the extent of actually having them arrested by an


officer of the House of Commons and they would have been put up in the


Tower of Westminster. Is that true or is that a joke? I am not sure


anyone knows because it has not been done for hundreds of years.


Rebekah Brooks accepted the invitation to come to the committed.


James Murdoch and Rupert Murdoch said they were both unavailable, so


the committee passed a formal motion to serve a summons on them.


Had they refuse to accept that, I would have gone to the House of


Commons and asked for a motion to be passed by the whole house


requiring them to attend. That would have been pretty much


unprecedented. If they then failed to abide by that, to be honest I do


not think anyone knows what would have happened next. In theory they


would have been marred to the Commons and there is a little room


which acts as a self. I believe there is something in the clock


tower. Anyway, they are coming on Tuesday. Are they all coming


together? Now the situation has changed, Rebekah Brooks is no


longer an employee of News Corporation, I think we will


probably want to talk to her separately from Rupert and James


Murdoch. One of the things you will have to be careful about is not


prejudging the judicial inquiry. Presumably one of the great


questions is about this very large number of e-mails which were being


held by News International's lawyers for years without being


acknowledged or analysed. Is that at the heart of what you will be


looking at? This is such an immensely complicated saga and


there are a vast number of questions, that was certain it is


one of them. We looked at all this two years ago when we had an


inquiry, which is when we were assured but all of our witnesses


that nobody had any involvement, it was down to one man. At that time


we were told 2500 e-mails had been gone through with great care and no


evidence emerged there was any involvement outside of Clive


Goodman. Yes, we will certainly want to ask if that is the case had


come now suddenly all of this is coming out? What would make a good


day for the committee in terms of the breakthrough answers you would


like to get? I think the sole purpose of the committee is to try


and get closer to what actually happened and to uncover the truth.


I would like and I hope there is a good chance that all three of the


witnesses will come determined to do their best to help us. We


understand there is an ongoing police inquiry, but that should not


prevent us from learned a lot more about what went on and to


authorised it. Do you think the committee was lied to us? We said


in 2009 that we did not believe what what we had been told, that it


was one person. We thought it was inconceivable that just one person


could have been involved. What we did not know was whether or not the


witnesses knew more than they were saying. Hopefully now that will


become clearer. James Murdoch himself has said that Parliament


was misled. Essentially he has told us that. You have got a lot of


helpful advice no doubt, but also about the tone of the committee.


There is presumably a lot of big egos in the room, and they will be


shouting and so on, what are you going to achieve as chairman?


not want us to be a lynch mob. On the other hand I do not want us to


let them off without properly addressing the questions. I hope,


and I am sure my colleagues will take the same you on the committee,


that we will be calm and ask Batchelor, detailed questions.


have got a few hours to do this, but if you do not get what you want,


or you have them back again? It is far too soon to say that. We have


to bear in mind there is a judicial inquiry and it will have more power


and it will take much longer. The full picture will not emerge until


that inquiry is complete. You have heard on the news there was a comic


about you being a close friend of Rebekah Brooks, you are on her face


that page. I am shocked you have a face that paid. I have 570 friends


on Facebook, whether or not Rebekah Brooks is still one of them I still


doubt. But you are not closely connected. I have been doing this


breed in one capacity or another for 10 years. I have met almost


every major figure in the media. This story appeared in the


Independent on Sunday. I have met Alexander Lebedev, but he is not a


friend on Facebook. Thank you very much. We are on to the papers as


promised. Lots of front pages. One of the interesting themes is the


papers are trying to get News of the World readers. This is the


first time we have not had the News of the World to show you. The


Sunday Mirror. His paper costs just 50 pence. Ashley is at it again.


The Mail on Sunday, this paper costs less than �1. They are


talking about Sarah's law. Now there is a different campaign. The


Sunday People. It is for people like you, prayer to be independent,


proud to put you first. On the other front page a very big story


about the boss of the Metropolitan Police. Paul Stephenson got �12,000


of help and care after he had been ill. Also a row with Gordon Brown.


The Sunday Telegraph, please focus on James Murdoch's role in the


cover up and much more besides, but very clever and well plugged in.


And you all for joining us. Where The Observer have got a full page


lead-up of questions that Rebekah Brooks, James and Rupert Murdoch


should be asked. When did you become aware of the 2009 payments


authorised by your son James... For example. It is strong stuff. It is


open season on the Murdoch empire and obviously this is Chapter 1.


has been a terrific fortnight for Ed Miliband, when you get even the


Sunday Telegraph saying Ed Miliband thrives as growing storm and Golfs


Cameron. It has been zero to hero coverage. He was being thoroughly


trashed Until this began, and he has been ahead in the demands he


has been making. Today's demand that they should be cross-party


agreement on new media ownership laws, and we should go back perhaps


to the laws Thatcher broke to allow Murdoch to acquire such an enormous


empire. The laws they have in America, where you can't have one


man as super dominant as he has become. you are one of the few


people who has interviewed Rupert Murdoch at the BBC, but the Sunday


Times is a good newspaper. He has built proper businesses, there is


no doubt about that, and I was struck by this piece in the


Observer. It is by Peter Preston, a former editor of the Guardian no


less, the paper that has led the way on this story. He would have


thought it would be full of bitter criticism, absolutely not. Warm,


open-hearted, generous. This is Rupert Murdoch he is talking about?


Exactly. There is a much truncated list of good things you could say


about Rupert but it is crazy amid the grey wash of righteousness to


pretend they don't exist. And he goes through them. He says Rupert


has subsidised the Times, he has improved the Wall Street Journal,


and created BSkyB. You think Rupert would be delighted by this,


wouldn't he? Not quite because when you get to the end you can see this


is about pity, and Rupert will hate being pitted, in particular by


Peter Preston. In the end, he says "this is an old charismatic leader


struggling to adjust in an empire full complexity". I remember as an


editor of the Daily Telegraph in 1986, we all knew we would never


have made the breakthrough into profitability if Rupert had not


fought the battle in Wapping for the whole industry. As you have


just been saying, the Times and the Sunday Times, God only knows what


happens if Ed Miliband gets his way and the Empire is broken up.


Everyone has known for years the Murdoch empire has been able to


maintain a culture of fear which has been fundamentally unhealthy.


We have all seen by ministers trembling before the power of


Rupert and this is not healthy in a democracy. In it started with John


Major. He said quite specifically he knew he was done for the moment


Rupert Murdoch gave him the thumbs down. The whole idea was that


Rupert Murdoch decided who would be prime minister. It is not


necessarily true, and the analysis of how much effect it has is


ambiguous, but prime ministers believed it sufficiently that they


could be bullied. The extent to which David Cameron can be bullied


has come out. Most shocking of all the fact emerges in the Mail on


Sunday today that Rebekah Brooks told David Cameron to employed Andy


Coulson so that he would be a direct conduit straight into the


heart of the evil empire. It would have been a different story it


otherwise. Talking of politicians trembling, many regard this as


payback time. Let's face it, it has been like shooting fish in a barrel


this week, having an attack on the Murdochs. Gordon Brown, as if to


underline his status as a big loser, had two pot shots at the Murdochs


and got it wrong with both. The fish somehow managed to swim away.


First he alleged they had access to the medical files of his son, that


was proven to be rubbish, then he said that they hired known


criminals to look at his tax files, and that was denied today. It is a


shame for Gordon when he should be getting his revenge, he has fluffed


his lines again. After the criminal hacking, there he was schmoozing


with Rebekah Brooks again. There is this notion that there is a tight


little circle of people schmoozing and drinking, and that is where the


real power is. This paper has been talking about the Chipping Norton


said. I don't know if you have been to any of these parties? I remember


seeing everyone on the terrace drinking Murdoch champagne, but out


on the lawn 20 yards out is the prime minister with Rupert Murdoch.


This went on for 45 minutes, and guests were lead over to meet them.


If I had been advising David Cameron, I would have said you must


be mad. I thought David Cameron was badly advised to get himself into


that posture, just as he was out of his mind to go to dinner at Rebekah


Brooks's home when these scandals were ongoing. They just need to


show common sense, which is what has been missing. I think it has


damaged him enormously. It is interesting he has been like Teflon


until now but he has been profoundly unnerved, as he should.


I think the police are the other really big part of this story.


don't think the British public has ever had a high opinion of the


media at the best of the Times, and they may be appalled and disgusted


by what is going on but maybe not shocked. The police is a different


kettle of fish. This Sunday Times story about the Metropolitan boss


taking a freebie. There has been stories about senior officers, an


alarming number, it is a dirty business and I think it is more


serious than the press end of this because we need to believe the


police are honest and efficient. Would you agree with that?


Definitely. What surprised me is when Rebekah Brooks appeared before


that select committee, several years ago now, can you remember she


admitted they had paid police officers. I thought that was a


damning confession. Why was that not followed up on both sides of


the fence? Because everybody knows lots of newspapers did. I think she


didn't even realise it was illegal. It wasn't until she got back to her


lawyer's and they said to her she should rescind bit, then she said


she didn't know anything about it. They thought it was just a perk of


the job. This is an international story, and you have an


international angle. You us, whether or not the whole Murdoch


Empire survives will depend on the American shareholders and how on


earth they are by the sight of this. If it turns out that one rather


slender allegation that the 9/11 victims' families were hacked, he


is toast and we don't know where that is going, but even without


that it appears American shareholders are saying hang on,


this family run business looks pretty ropey. He may lose


everything. American corporate law is much tougher than in this


country. Rupert Murdoch could be in big trouble. If there is one bit of


evidence that somehow or either the police have been suborned in New


York or victims of horror shows like 9/11 have had their phones


tapped, the full weight of the liberal establishment will pour


down on Murdoch and I think he will struggle to cope with that.


just the liberal establishment, the Republicans will be there as well.


Let's move on to other stories. were talking about international


stories, there is just one I have got a mention. It is my favourite


of the week. This is the cheekiest piece of journalism. On Thursday,


who turns up in the Financial Times being asked to write his assessment


of Rupert Murdoch? None other than Conrad Black, a convicted criminal


who was about to go back to jail. There he is sitting in judgment. I


thought it was fantastically cheeky. He does it with style, saying


"Murdoch bashing has until recently generally been a disreputable


activity engaged in by the envious, the far left, and the commercially


on competitive. Well that is now all over so it is open season". He


finishes with a flourish, saying "Murdoch has been assiduously


kissing undercarriage of the rulers of Beijing for years". We have to


face the fact that most newspaper powers, if they don't start of


March, they end up mad. Their roots, bizarrely, a world beyond the


Murdoch empire so let's have a quick nod at that. I the British


force was too weak to defeat the Taliban, say MPs. I am bound to say


some of us were writing again and again in 2006 this is a doomed


venture, I called it gesture strategy. They have caught up with


the reality that the commitment in Helmand was ill judged. The other


story is the economy, I think. Without doubt. History will look


back and say here was the world teetering on the edge. The European


economy in chaos, who knows which way it will go? The American


economy in great doubt. A very good story in the Observer talking about


how may be what is going on across Europe is just a handy alibi to


cover up the extent to which George Osborne has strangled Arrow and


economic recovery and made matters much worse here. I'm in danger of


agreeing with folly so I must review my position on the spot she


is right. While this soap opera that is the Murdoch family goes on,


extraordinary things are happening in Europe. Greece is going to


default, that is for sure, Ireland hangs on by a thread, and Italy has


had to impose a new package of measures, 48 billion euros of


austerity and that country is sliding towards the chaos we have


seen in Athens and clearly Berlusconi is not the man to rescue


the country. The school run story very briefly. A nice column in the


Observer, should Dave and Nick Clegg be doing the school run at


all? What were they doing mucking about taking the children to


school? We want them to be sorted out the country. We only scratched


the surface of some great Sunday newspapers. There have been so many


great stories, thank you. Over to the weather. Torrential rain in


London yesterday. If it rains on St Swithin's Day, it will rain for 40


days, so says the legend. St Swithun's Day was Friday, July 15th,


It is not set to rain non-stop for the next 40 days but it is looking


pretty mixed. Today there will be rain or showers which could be


heavy for most of the UK. Persistent rain at times affecting


West and Scotland, Northern Ireland, northern England, later pushing


into northern Wales and the Midlands. For everyone else it is a


mixture of sunshine and showers. Quite cool for July, temperatures


up to 20 degrees. Tonight low- pressure throws in more rain across


much of Scotland, Northern Ireland and later into the Midlands and


Wales as well. Mild and breezy, temperatures staying in double


figures. From Monday, still a mixed picture across the UK, Western


Areas more prone to seeing persistent rain. For the rest again


it is deja-vu, a mixture of sunny spells and showers. A breezy and it


will stay cool again, temperatures firmly fixed in the teens. That it


We were discussing earlier on one group who have very serious


questions to answer by the Metropolitan Police whose


investigations into phone hacking was so half-hearted for so long and


twos officers seem to be so closely connected to the Rupert Murdoch


empire they were meant to be scrutinising. I am joined by Yvette


Cooper. Good morning and welcome. Good morning. You have seen yet


more allegations about police officers taking money and being


very close to the Rupert Murdoch people as well. What is your


assessment about the scale of the crisis by the Metropolitan Police


this morning. We have got a drip, drip now of allegations and


information that raises serious questions. I have been calling for


some time for full disclosure from the Metropolitan Police, for them


to be open and transparent about all of their links with News of the


World. I think they should do that, they should have done so already.


The trip means there is a cloud created over the Metropolitan


Police because of this. I think both the leadership and the Home


Secretary need to take some action now to make sure you can resolve


this for the future. You cannot have this sort of thing tarnishing


the reputation of the Met. Do you think Sir Paul Stephenson is now


fatally damaged? I think he needs to act now to restore confidence in


the leadership of the Met. That includes full disclosure,


recognising mistakes that have been made and setting out action for the


future. I hope he can do that. But I also think the Home Secretary


needs to do that as well. This is partly her responsibility, what the


confidence is in British policing. She should be demanding for


disclosure and she should be setting out what action the Met


knees to take to restore that confidence. At the moment she is


saying all of this can wait until the judicial inquiry. It cannot


possibly wait for what could be years for conclusions from the


judicial inquiry. We need is to be resolved now so that police


officers across the country can get on with their job without their


reputation being affected. This is a difficult situation because the


people running the Met are responsible for huge issues, the


anti-terrorism affairs, the future of the policing of the Olympics,


never mind the day-to-day running of law and order around London. We


now have a group of people who are being got at day after day in the


newspapers with serious allegations. We both need them, or people like


them, and yet they are all in deep trouble, aren't they? The important


thing is you have got to have confidence in the way policing is


taking place. There has got to be public respect for policing as well.


I've been Sir Paul Stephenson has been doing a good job in fighting


crime in London, but he needs to act on this now, but so too does


the Home Secretary. She needs to demonstrate it she has got full


disclosure and full answers to these questions which we have not


yet seen publicly. And also that she has continued confidence in the


Met, but if so she needs to say so and not simply hide and wait for


this to go away. For example, the question about the Met taking on


Neil Wallace, the deputy editor of the News of the World, that is a


very questionable employment judgment. There are important to


answer these questions, but it is important about Downing Street


employing the editor of the News of the World. The Home Secretary is


not pursuing this, I hope it is not because she is reticent because the


same cloud hangs over Downing Street as well. Surely the


difference is that Neil was's employment was generally not know


it either by politicians or buy anybody else at the time? We have


got that allegations about the resort, again involving the same


individual. What is your view about that? You are right, transparency


is at the heart of that, but we do not have transparency Bonn the


Prime Minister and what security checks that he did on taking on


Andy Coulson, just as we do not have those answers from the Met


about Neil Wallace. I do think there are still questions for


Downing Street. On the issue of the stories in the front page of the


Sunday Times, we have not had answers on that one. That looks


like a separate issue from the questions about hacking, but we do


not know the answers yet. What is important you have the full


disclosure, you have the full information, but I have not seen


the answers to those questions, but I think the Home Secretary should


have made sure that she has seen the answers to the questions. She


cannot just leave this to the judicial enquiry. She needs to make


sure we can all have confidence in the work the Met is doing. Labour


is having a good campaign so far or all of this and yet there was


nobody who was closer and keener to sell Cup to Rupert Murdoch and his


editors in the old days then you former boss Gordon Brown, you


former leader Tony Blair. Any thoughts about Labour's


embarrassment about getting so close to people you are now


castigating and excoriating? Miliband has said there should have


been stronger questioning in the past. The relationship between the


press and politics, as well as the relationship between the press and


the plays, is one which should have exposed earlier. That is why it is


right that Ed Miliband has now been talking about the importance of


addressing this cross-media ownership issue that was not dealt


with, was not talked about, before. He is right to say we should have


stronger controls on cross-media ownership. That is what we will be


put into the judicial inquiry. We should not have those sorts of


concentrations of media power and we have to learn lessons from what


has happened, not simply have two wakes up outrage when we do not


take action for the future. I used uprise Andy Coulson was invited to


Chequers after he left the employment of Number 10? Very


surprised. It raises further questions about the judgment of the


prime minister, we know he was warned against taking on Andy


Coulson and taking him into Downing Street by a whole series of very


senior people, including the Lib Dems, including in the media and


the newspapers. He chose to do so and he has chosen to continue that


connection sense. It raises questions about what they discuss,


just as it raises questions about what was discussed at BSkyB and the


continued contact with News International as well. Any friendly


advice for Gordon Brown whose intervention was scarcely helpful.


He is clearly angry about all sorts of things, and yet he seems to be


made the allegations which are either impossible to substantiate


or he has not be able to substantiate. I have not seen the


information Gordon Brown says he has one of these things. I do know


that for him and for the whole family it was very distressing to


have to deal with the things that were being said and being written


in the newspapers about the health of their son. I think that did


cause great distress for them and he has talked about information he


has and I have not seen that, but these are the reasons why we need


this judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of all of that. Yvette


Cooper, thank you very much for joining us.


It has been a foundation shaking time for the Rupert Murdoch empire,


but the scandal has also sent shock waves to the rest of the


establishment. I am joined by the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.


Welcome. Can I start with the business of cross-media ownership?


A lot of people, not just in the Labour Party, are saying this is


the moment where we should ensure that nobody ever again is quite so


Dominic in the media world in this country. What is your view of that?


I think it is undoubtedly true that when you give up one individual, or


a small number of people, a huge amount of power without proper


accountability, things go wrong. That has happened here as it does


in other walks of life. We need to look again in the round at the


plurality rules to make sure there is proper plurality in the British


press. A healthy press is a diverse one, where you have got lots of


different organisations competing. That is what we need. But even if


you get the plurality rules right, which I hope we do, and we have


been calling for it for years, none of that will matter an issue also


hold people to account in the media. At the moment you have the


ludicrous situation where you have editors of national newspapers who


make or break the reputation of innocent individuals in the blink


of an eye, and yet they themselves are not held independently to


account. It is even worse. If anything goes wrong, the editors


decide how things in the press should be pleased. In no other walk


of life do you have people acting as judge and jury. That needs to


stop and change. Let me be clear about the plurality issue. It would


have to be enshrined in legislation. Would you be prepared and be


sitting down with Ed Miliband who has called for the same sort of


thing? As I say, my party has been calling for a long time for a


change. Are you happy to sit with people? I am very happy to sit with


people. The inquiry we have set up will produce ideas about what we


should do. If we can act on it on a cross-party basis, as we did last


week in the house of Commons, all the better. Let me give you one


specific proposal. At the moment you can only apply this test of


plurality, whether there is enough diversity, when you have a business


transaction when you have got to examine. I do not see why that test


is not applied all the time. There might be changes in the way the


media operates whereby one operation gets bigger. At the


moment the plurality test cannot be applied in those circumstances.


That presumably would mean if a newspaper became more successful


because it was a good newspaper, it could suddenly be too successful.


The main focus is cross-media ownership and with the new media


that are growing up and developing that is what you need to look at.


That is what the inquiry will do. But the point I am trying to make


is whether it is the plurality tests or the fitness test, it is


being applied in a very snapshot way. We need to look at the way in


which concentrations of power might evolve over time. I think a lot of


good can come out of this if we are brave enough to look at the rules


on competition and plurality and who is fit and proper to run our


media organisations. To allow the inquiry independently to make


recommendations, because you do not want politicians to be in charge


entirely. What about foreign ownership? The Americans have got


very strong rules about people who can control their media. We do not


and we do not even have strong rules about whether people have to


pay taxes on that. I think Rupert Murdoch is a US citizen because he


needed to become a US citizen in order to own Fox News. I think this


is a complex area because you cannot impose those nationality


rules within the European Union. It is a complex area. Of course it is


a legitimate area we should look at, but this key thing of plurality,


diversity and accountability so you have independent regulation, not


regulation which is in the gift of politicians. I do not want to live


in a country where politicians Bill comfortable with the press, that


would be a disaster. But that is very difficult. You are taking a


different line from Ed Miliband he says he wants a continuation of


self regulation. You are saying it should be statutory regulation. A


lot of people cannot see how you can have a statutory system that is


properly outside the purview of politicians, that politicians


cannot get at. Every time there has been a crisis in different pillars


of the established but the response sensibly has been to give more


power to people who are independent of those people who have got into


trouble. When the MPs got into trouble, the response was to take


all responsibility for their pay and expenses out of their hands


into an independent body. What has been the response after the banking


crisis? Independent regulators are given more power. I do not see why


the press should be unique in having a so-called ethics committee


overseeing had the code of conduct for editors works. The only people


on it are editors of newspapers. In no other walk of life would you


have people acting as judge and jury for their own mistakes.


have talked about politicians and the press, but we have not talked


about the police. There is a perception that the police have


been on the take from the bottom to the top. Are you worried about


this? I am incredibly worried. From the public's point of view, the


fact that their cynicism in politicians and the press might


have deepened is not entirely surprising. I think when that


public stats losing faith in the police it is much more serious and


we are in some trouble. That is why I think it is very important the


commission should answer the questions that have been put to


them and answer the questions very fully. You mean Sir Paul Stephens


and. Yes. You think his position is tenable still? I am not going to


judge them now until they have given the reassurances and the


answers to the questions that have been put to them. The questions


need to be answered very fully and The coalition has had a rough week,


a rough few weeks on this. Yes, the Liberal Democrats were protesting


about Rupert Murdoch in the old days, partly because you were too


small a party for them to court, I suspect! How uncomfortable are you


with the way David Cameron has behaved around Andy Coulson? Did


you say to him yourself you should not employed this man?


anxieties as a party about the hacking allegations, Andy Coulson


and so on, we made them publicly before the election. Nobody should


be surprised we came at this from different standpoints. The Prime


Minister has explained why he gave Andy Coulson what he calls a second


chance. We did discuss it, of course we did. Did you say to him...


If you don't mind, I am not going to give you a word-for-word account.


It was an issue we raised publicly before. Ray used by you? Of course,


David Cameron and myself spoke about it. At the end of the day, it


was his appointment, he has explained the reasons why he made


that appointment. And you got the impression he wasn't going to


flinch on this matter, it was personal and he wasn't going to


change? He explained why he did it and the circumstances in which he


did it. Vince Cable lost a large part of his job for saying he was


going to war on Murdoch and he must now feel vindicated and you must


ask yourself why he was booted out of that part of his role. I don't


think it is down to the feelings of any one politician. This is down to


a crisis in public confidence. We have the banking crisis, a total


collapse of basic decency in the way the press conduct themselves,


and we need to make sure we get something good coming up out of all


this would create greater distance between politicians and the press,


and make sure we have a healthy, free, plural, accountable press.


you think you had enough influence at the early stage in the coalition,


thinking of Andy Coulson, the NHS and many other issues, where you


seemed to have a deal which looked relatively equitable and yet as


things have turned out, your party has been brushed to one side?


don't agree. If you look at things that have happened in this country,


whether it is taking over a million people out of paying income tax


altogether, whether it is more money to children from


disadvantaged backgrounds, you entitlement to young toddlers from


three childcare, sweeping away a barrage of legislation which eroded


civil liberties, renewing and refreshing the way we do politics,


these things are Liberal Democrats. Some people say either Lib Dems


have too much influence or the Conservatives do, that is the


nature of coalition. Do you think the last two weeks has changed the


nature of the coalition? He it has changed fundamentally the way in


which the political class and the media class Interact, and hopefully


it will create greater accountability. You are charmingly


not answering the question I asked, which was what about relationships


inside the coalition? Relationships evolve all the time. Have the last


few weeks changed it? A sharp spotlight has been cast on a very


murky part of the Establishment, interactions between the


establishment, the press and the police. This will have been


improved because of events over the last two weeks. From where you are


standing, those relationships, the Conservative Party, Rebekah Brooks,


the Murdochs, the Labour Party, Rebekah Brooks, the Murdochs, that


was unhealthy, it had to change? have always been a staunch critic


of the tendency of Labour and Conservative to constantly fall to


their knees obsequiously towards very powerful vested interests in


the media. That I hope will change. If anyone had doubt about the


fundamental judgment of this coalition government to deal with


another of the crisis, namely the crisis in our public finances, look


at what is happening across the Channel. This is very important,


look at what is happening in the United States about wrangling on


the debt ceiling. I wish it was otherwise, but surely there can be


no one left now who agrees the fundamental decision, the biggest


decision this coalition took, that we needed to Yank this country back


from the precipice and into an area of greater economic safety. If the


Murdoch story happened, we would be talking about nothing apart from


what is going on in the euro-zone and America. How worried are you


that we are on the edge of another serious global financial crisis?


Incredibly worried. The gravity of the uncertainty in the United


States, which is a product of political gridlock, and the growing


fiscal crisis in the euro-zone is immensely serious. If anyone thinks


somehow we can wash our hands of it and say -- and turn our backs on it,


we can't. I believe we should play an active role behind the scenes to


help euro-zone members to make the reforms necessary to create a


strong prosperous euro-zone in the future. It is worse than that


however, is it not? The Office of budget responsibility report looks


ahead to an era of 40 years of Viva considerably higher taxes or a


smaller state, or both. That is why I know that although many of the


decisions we have taken around popular, they have been taken to


avoid long-term problems. Whether it is pensions, public services,


the balance between taxing and spending, how we deal with the


deficit, these are big decisions we have taken now because if you don't


sort it now, our children and grandchildren will be the victim of


the mistakes and the failure of this generation to sort things out.


What, in essence, does Rupert Murdoch have to say to the House of


Commons on Tuesday? He needs to come absolutely clean about what he


knew, about what his senior executives knew, and why this


culture of industrial scale corruption, so it is alleged,


happened without anyone higher up taking responsibility for it.


have got a kicking again in the papers today for doing the school


run. Let me let you into a secret, which I suspect many fathers feel,


I like being with my children and I love having the opportunity to take


them on the school run. This is 2011, not 1911, and the idea that


fathers can't remain dedicated his in attitude that belongs in a


previous century. Thank you for joining us. Now the news headlines.


A deputy prime minister has said politicians should be brave enough


to look again at the rules on media ownership to ensure plurality and


competition. Nick Clegg was responding to a call from Ed


Miliband for a change in the law to stop any one proprietor from owning


as many newspapers as Rupert Murdoch. News International is


currently under investigation for phone hacking at the News of the


World. The company has placed another set of adverts in this


morning's newspapers saying it is committed to putting right what has


gone wrong. The MoD says a soldier from the


Royal Lancers has been killed in Afghanistan. His family has been


informed. The soldier was on a joint patrol with the Afghan


National Army in Helmand province when he was shot. In investigation


is being carried out into reports he was fired on by an Afghan


National Army soldier. The next news on BBC One is at


midday, back to Andrew and guest in a moment but first a look at what


is coming up after this show. Today, has Britain been corrupted?


We will hear from a former top police officer. And we are asking a


teacher turned porn star if we should shut up about sex. Are we


too scared about offending Muslims? Go to the website to join the


debate. Now, one of the most successful


bands of the 1990s was the Irish quartet The Corrs. The siblings


have gone their separate ways professionally, but Andrea has just


released an album of cover songs. Recently she has been winning


critical acclaim for her acting on stage in London. Welcome. This is


an album which you say in the cover notes of one of your albums came


from a dark place, and you almost turned away from music. What was


that about? I kind of stopped doing it. I know it sounds dramatic what


I said, but I just wanted to live a quiet and normal life. The producer


of the record John Reynolds got in touch with me, and loved my voice,


wanted to make a record together. So I did that. I was mentioning the


acting, which has gone very well for you. will we see you back on


stage Again? Yes, I hope to do it all my life. I really love it, I am


passionate about it. Tell us about the song you are going to sing now.


Most people know it as a Donna summer's song, State of


Independence, and it is epic. An amazing song. We have had a lot of


gloom and despair, but this is a happy song. Yes, but I think it is


relevant actually. That is all we have got time for today. I am going


filming so next week my colleague James Landale will be here and his


guests include Dame Kelly Holmes and no doubt plenty of politicians.


For now, we leave you with Andrea # State of life, may I live, may I


love # coming out the sky, I name me a


name # coming out silver word for what


it is # it is very nature of the sound,


the game Home, be the temple of your heart


# home, be the body of your love # just like holy water to my lips


# Yes, I do know how I survive # yes, I do know why I'm alive


And be with you # day by day by day by day


# Time, time again, it is said # we will hear, we will see


# see it all in His wisdom hear # His truth will abound the land


# this truth will abound the land # this state of independence shall


# this state of independence shall # Say, yeah -e-yay, yeah-e-yo yeah-


e-yay, yeah-e-yo... # Be the sound of higher love today


yeah-e-yeah # Time, time again, it is said


# we will hear, we will see # see it all in His wisdom hear


# His truth will abound the land # this truth will abound the land


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