17/07/2011 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning and welcome. We had planned to be at the Olympic

Stadium today, but instead we are sticking with the big story of the

week. More shock revelations from the Rupert Murdoch Empire and the

Chipping Norton said. The columnist and broadcaster Jeremy Clarkson

admits this morning that they used to drink cocktails made from

crushed Socialists and talk about taking her over the BBC before

Rupert Murdoch joined us on a live video feed from his private

volcano's stroking a white cat. It is extremely worrying, it is just

possible it is a joke. But it has been an amazing week and to talk

about the fall-out I am joined for today's paper review by one of the

very few people close to Rupert Murdoch, Sky News Business

presenter Jeff Randall, Polly Toynbee and the former editor of

the Telegraph and Evening Standard, Max Hastings. It has been a real

what next week in politics. Terrible for Rupert Murdoch's

newspaper and television companies while some of his rivals are

gloating like mad. This is the Independent on Sunday, they take on

a once famous front page about Neil Kinnock from the Sun newspaper. As

a Labour calls for new laws to ensure no individual every game has

so much power in Britain's media, a lot of attention is moving to the

role of the police as the saga unfolds. As the Government is

buffeted by a firestorm of revelations, which I joined this

morning by the Deputy Prime Minister whose Lib Dem colleagues

are formally asking whether the owners of BSkyB are fit and proper

people to run a television company in the UK. The hottest ticket in

town will be for the Commons committee room where Mr Murdoch,

his son James and Rebekah Brooks will be questioned by MPs on

Tuesday. The man sharing that session is the Conservative MP John

Whittingdale and he is with me as well. Labour have been enjoying all

of this and I will be joined by the shadow Home Secretary a debt Cooper.

I wonder if she has any regrets about Labour's once cosy

relationship with Rupert Murdoch. And some music, Donna Summer that

is. Andrea Corr and her band are going to play as out with a

wonderful cover of a great 1980s High-volume, cold morning. First,

the news. The Labour leader Ed Miliband is

calling for a change in the law to stop anyone proprietor from owning

as many newspapers and broadcasters as Rupert Murdoch. The effect of

the proposal would be to force the break-up of News International,

currently under investigation for phone hacking. The company has

placed another set of adverts in today's newspapers, saying it is

committed to putting right what has gone wrong.

He in an article in today's observe her Ed Miliband said Rupert Murdoch

had too much power over public life. He said the concentration of media

ownership in one person's hands was and healthier. The message from

News International is in many of today's newspapers. It says there

should be no place to hide from a police investigation into phone

hacking. There is more pressure to bear on Metropolitan Police

Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson who has already come under fire for

his close links with News International. Scotland Yard said

he stayed for five weeks at a resort whilst recovering from a leg

injury. The cost of accommodation and meals was paid for by the boss,

a family friend. One of the PR advisers was Neil Wallace, the

former News of the World Jenise questioned by police on Friday. The

Met Police said the commissioner was unaware of that until yesterday.

Links between the media and politicians are also under scrutiny.

John Whittingdale has confirmed that former News International

executive Rebekah Brooks is one of hiscontacts. She has been summoned

to give evidence to the committee on Tuesday. Mr Whittingdale said he

would not call her a friend. The Ministry of Defence says a

soldier from the Royal Lancers has been killed while on duty in

Afghanistan. His family has been informed. An army spokesman said

the soldier was on a joint patrol with the Afghan National Army in

Helmand Province when he was shot. An investigation is being carried

out into reports that he was barred on by an Afghan National Army

soldier. MPs are warning that pulling

British troops out of Afghanistan prematurely could weaken remaining

forces. The Commons defence committee believes David Cameron's

plan to withdraw by the end of 2014 could undermine the international

coalition's strategy and they are not convinced the troops in

Afghanistan have sufficient helicopters.

On his recent visit to Helmand, the Prime Minister again made clear he

wants combat operations to finish by the end of 2014. But MPs on the

defence committee have warned against withdrawing British boys

are too quickly or too soon from Afghanistan, saner the withdrawal

was depend on the situation on the ground, and they are not sure where

their the Afghan national army and police will be ready to take over

security by then. Looking back at her the mission in Helmand began in

2006, the MPs expressed many concerns, among them that the MoD

did not anticipate sending in British troops. They are also

critical of failure to warn ministers of the dangers facing

those forces when they were first deployed under Tony Blair's

Government. They said that for three years British troops lacked

the necessary numbers and equipment after senior commanders in the UK

told the then Defence Secretary that the commanders on the ground

did not have what they needed. left our troops exposed and at risk

in a way that was unacceptable. That has to be put right. There has

got to be better communication between the military and the

politicians. The military have got to be absolutely careful not to

suppress warnings from the commanders on the ground. The MPs

also said they are not yet convinced that troops now in

Afghanistan have enough helicopters, not least after previous this year

rinses were later proved wrong. The United Nations has made the

first delivery of food and medicine to drought victims in areas of

Somalia after a ruling militants lifted an aid ban. It comes as the

famine could be formally declared in the next week by the UN. The

International Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell, has been visiting

the region and is urging other countries to do more to help. The

UK has pledged �52 million in emergency aid.

Tributes have been paid to the actor's Googie Withers who died

aged 94. She was best known for working with Arford Hitchcock

before the Second World War, but also had a successful career on

television in later life. Her unusual first name was given to her

by her nanny who struggle to say her real name, Georgette. That is

all for now. I will be back just before 10 o'clock.

We will have our regular review in a short while, but first I am

joined by the Conservative MP John Whittingdale, chair of the Commons

Committee on Culture and Media and he will be quizzing the Murdochs,

father and son, on Tuesday and Rebekah Brooks. Famously Rebekah

Brooks never gives TV interviews. But she did once talked to my

predecessor David Frost in 2001. strongly believe we are on the side

of the right, the public are behind us and we will continue to make

sure that people understand the basis of Sarah's lock, controlled

public access. That was Sarah's law, about identifying paedophiles. Now

that they have accepted John Whittingdale's invitation, what can

we expect on Tuesday? Will there be blood on the carpet in Boothroyd

Room? They have accepted your invitation, but after quite a lot

of pushing and tucking. There were some extraordinary stories that you

would have gone to the extent of actually having them arrested by an

officer of the House of Commons and they would have been put up in the

Tower of Westminster. Is that true or is that a joke? I am not sure

anyone knows because it has not been done for hundreds of years.

Rebekah Brooks accepted the invitation to come to the committed.

James Murdoch and Rupert Murdoch said they were both unavailable, so

the committee passed a formal motion to serve a summons on them.

Had they refuse to accept that, I would have gone to the House of

Commons and asked for a motion to be passed by the whole house

requiring them to attend. That would have been pretty much

unprecedented. If they then failed to abide by that, to be honest I do

not think anyone knows what would have happened next. In theory they

would have been marred to the Commons and there is a little room

which acts as a self. I believe there is something in the clock

tower. Anyway, they are coming on Tuesday. Are they all coming

together? Now the situation has changed, Rebekah Brooks is no

longer an employee of News Corporation, I think we will

probably want to talk to her separately from Rupert and James

Murdoch. One of the things you will have to be careful about is not

prejudging the judicial inquiry. Presumably one of the great

questions is about this very large number of e-mails which were being

held by News International's lawyers for years without being

acknowledged or analysed. Is that at the heart of what you will be

looking at? This is such an immensely complicated saga and

there are a vast number of questions, that was certain it is

one of them. We looked at all this two years ago when we had an

inquiry, which is when we were assured but all of our witnesses

that nobody had any involvement, it was down to one man. At that time

we were told 2500 e-mails had been gone through with great care and no

evidence emerged there was any involvement outside of Clive

Goodman. Yes, we will certainly want to ask if that is the case had

come now suddenly all of this is coming out? What would make a good

day for the committee in terms of the breakthrough answers you would

like to get? I think the sole purpose of the committee is to try

and get closer to what actually happened and to uncover the truth.

I would like and I hope there is a good chance that all three of the

witnesses will come determined to do their best to help us. We

understand there is an ongoing police inquiry, but that should not

prevent us from learned a lot more about what went on and to

authorised it. Do you think the committee was lied to us? We said

in 2009 that we did not believe what what we had been told, that it

was one person. We thought it was inconceivable that just one person

could have been involved. What we did not know was whether or not the

witnesses knew more than they were saying. Hopefully now that will

become clearer. James Murdoch himself has said that Parliament

was misled. Essentially he has told us that. You have got a lot of

helpful advice no doubt, but also about the tone of the committee.

There is presumably a lot of big egos in the room, and they will be

shouting and so on, what are you going to achieve as chairman?

not want us to be a lynch mob. On the other hand I do not want us to

let them off without properly addressing the questions. I hope,

and I am sure my colleagues will take the same you on the committee,

that we will be calm and ask Batchelor, detailed questions.

have got a few hours to do this, but if you do not get what you want,

or you have them back again? It is far too soon to say that. We have

to bear in mind there is a judicial inquiry and it will have more power

and it will take much longer. The full picture will not emerge until

that inquiry is complete. You have heard on the news there was a comic

about you being a close friend of Rebekah Brooks, you are on her face

that page. I am shocked you have a face that paid. I have 570 friends

on Facebook, whether or not Rebekah Brooks is still one of them I still

doubt. But you are not closely connected. I have been doing this

breed in one capacity or another for 10 years. I have met almost

every major figure in the media. This story appeared in the

Independent on Sunday. I have met Alexander Lebedev, but he is not a

friend on Facebook. Thank you very much. We are on to the papers as

promised. Lots of front pages. One of the interesting themes is the

papers are trying to get News of the World readers. This is the

first time we have not had the News of the World to show you. The

Sunday Mirror. His paper costs just 50 pence. Ashley is at it again.

The Mail on Sunday, this paper costs less than �1. They are

talking about Sarah's law. Now there is a different campaign. The

Sunday People. It is for people like you, prayer to be independent,

proud to put you first. On the other front page a very big story

about the boss of the Metropolitan Police. Paul Stephenson got �12,000

of help and care after he had been ill. Also a row with Gordon Brown.

The Sunday Telegraph, please focus on James Murdoch's role in the

cover up and much more besides, but very clever and well plugged in.

And you all for joining us. Where The Observer have got a full page

lead-up of questions that Rebekah Brooks, James and Rupert Murdoch

should be asked. When did you become aware of the 2009 payments

authorised by your son James... For example. It is strong stuff. It is

open season on the Murdoch empire and obviously this is Chapter 1.

has been a terrific fortnight for Ed Miliband, when you get even the

Sunday Telegraph saying Ed Miliband thrives as growing storm and Golfs

Cameron. It has been zero to hero coverage. He was being thoroughly

trashed Until this began, and he has been ahead in the demands he

has been making. Today's demand that they should be cross-party

agreement on new media ownership laws, and we should go back perhaps

to the laws Thatcher broke to allow Murdoch to acquire such an enormous

empire. The laws they have in America, where you can't have one

man as super dominant as he has become. you are one of the few

people who has interviewed Rupert Murdoch at the BBC, but the Sunday

Times is a good newspaper. He has built proper businesses, there is

no doubt about that, and I was struck by this piece in the

Observer. It is by Peter Preston, a former editor of the Guardian no

less, the paper that has led the way on this story. He would have

thought it would be full of bitter criticism, absolutely not. Warm,

open-hearted, generous. This is Rupert Murdoch he is talking about?

Exactly. There is a much truncated list of good things you could say

about Rupert but it is crazy amid the grey wash of righteousness to

pretend they don't exist. And he goes through them. He says Rupert

has subsidised the Times, he has improved the Wall Street Journal,

and created BSkyB. You think Rupert would be delighted by this,

wouldn't he? Not quite because when you get to the end you can see this

is about pity, and Rupert will hate being pitted, in particular by

Peter Preston. In the end, he says "this is an old charismatic leader

struggling to adjust in an empire full complexity". I remember as an

editor of the Daily Telegraph in 1986, we all knew we would never

have made the breakthrough into profitability if Rupert had not

fought the battle in Wapping for the whole industry. As you have

just been saying, the Times and the Sunday Times, God only knows what

happens if Ed Miliband gets his way and the Empire is broken up.

Everyone has known for years the Murdoch empire has been able to

maintain a culture of fear which has been fundamentally unhealthy.

We have all seen by ministers trembling before the power of

Rupert and this is not healthy in a democracy. In it started with John

Major. He said quite specifically he knew he was done for the moment

Rupert Murdoch gave him the thumbs down. The whole idea was that

Rupert Murdoch decided who would be prime minister. It is not

necessarily true, and the analysis of how much effect it has is

ambiguous, but prime ministers believed it sufficiently that they

could be bullied. The extent to which David Cameron can be bullied

has come out. Most shocking of all the fact emerges in the Mail on

Sunday today that Rebekah Brooks told David Cameron to employed Andy

Coulson so that he would be a direct conduit straight into the

heart of the evil empire. It would have been a different story it

otherwise. Talking of politicians trembling, many regard this as

payback time. Let's face it, it has been like shooting fish in a barrel

this week, having an attack on the Murdochs. Gordon Brown, as if to

underline his status as a big loser, had two pot shots at the Murdochs

and got it wrong with both. The fish somehow managed to swim away.

First he alleged they had access to the medical files of his son, that

was proven to be rubbish, then he said that they hired known

criminals to look at his tax files, and that was denied today. It is a

shame for Gordon when he should be getting his revenge, he has fluffed

his lines again. After the criminal hacking, there he was schmoozing

with Rebekah Brooks again. There is this notion that there is a tight

little circle of people schmoozing and drinking, and that is where the

real power is. This paper has been talking about the Chipping Norton

said. I don't know if you have been to any of these parties? I remember

seeing everyone on the terrace drinking Murdoch champagne, but out

on the lawn 20 yards out is the prime minister with Rupert Murdoch.

This went on for 45 minutes, and guests were lead over to meet them.

If I had been advising David Cameron, I would have said you must

be mad. I thought David Cameron was badly advised to get himself into

that posture, just as he was out of his mind to go to dinner at Rebekah

Brooks's home when these scandals were ongoing. They just need to

show common sense, which is what has been missing. I think it has

damaged him enormously. It is interesting he has been like Teflon

until now but he has been profoundly unnerved, as he should.

I think the police are the other really big part of this story.

don't think the British public has ever had a high opinion of the

media at the best of the Times, and they may be appalled and disgusted

by what is going on but maybe not shocked. The police is a different

kettle of fish. This Sunday Times story about the Metropolitan boss

taking a freebie. There has been stories about senior officers, an

alarming number, it is a dirty business and I think it is more

serious than the press end of this because we need to believe the

police are honest and efficient. Would you agree with that?

Definitely. What surprised me is when Rebekah Brooks appeared before

that select committee, several years ago now, can you remember she

admitted they had paid police officers. I thought that was a

damning confession. Why was that not followed up on both sides of

the fence? Because everybody knows lots of newspapers did. I think she

didn't even realise it was illegal. It wasn't until she got back to her

lawyer's and they said to her she should rescind bit, then she said

she didn't know anything about it. They thought it was just a perk of

the job. This is an international story, and you have an

international angle. You us, whether or not the whole Murdoch

Empire survives will depend on the American shareholders and how on

earth they are by the sight of this. If it turns out that one rather

slender allegation that the 9/11 victims' families were hacked, he

is toast and we don't know where that is going, but even without

that it appears American shareholders are saying hang on,

this family run business looks pretty ropey. He may lose

everything. American corporate law is much tougher than in this

country. Rupert Murdoch could be in big trouble. If there is one bit of

evidence that somehow or either the police have been suborned in New

York or victims of horror shows like 9/11 have had their phones

tapped, the full weight of the liberal establishment will pour

down on Murdoch and I think he will struggle to cope with that.

just the liberal establishment, the Republicans will be there as well.

Let's move on to other stories. were talking about international

stories, there is just one I have got a mention. It is my favourite

of the week. This is the cheekiest piece of journalism. On Thursday,

who turns up in the Financial Times being asked to write his assessment

of Rupert Murdoch? None other than Conrad Black, a convicted criminal

who was about to go back to jail. There he is sitting in judgment. I

thought it was fantastically cheeky. He does it with style, saying

"Murdoch bashing has until recently generally been a disreputable

activity engaged in by the envious, the far left, and the commercially

on competitive. Well that is now all over so it is open season". He

finishes with a flourish, saying "Murdoch has been assiduously

kissing undercarriage of the rulers of Beijing for years". We have to

face the fact that most newspaper powers, if they don't start of

March, they end up mad. Their roots, bizarrely, a world beyond the

Murdoch empire so let's have a quick nod at that. I the British

force was too weak to defeat the Taliban, say MPs. I am bound to say

some of us were writing again and again in 2006 this is a doomed

venture, I called it gesture strategy. They have caught up with

the reality that the commitment in Helmand was ill judged. The other

story is the economy, I think. Without doubt. History will look

back and say here was the world teetering on the edge. The European

economy in chaos, who knows which way it will go? The American

economy in great doubt. A very good story in the Observer talking about

how may be what is going on across Europe is just a handy alibi to

cover up the extent to which George Osborne has strangled Arrow and

economic recovery and made matters much worse here. I'm in danger of

agreeing with folly so I must review my position on the spot she

is right. While this soap opera that is the Murdoch family goes on,

extraordinary things are happening in Europe. Greece is going to

default, that is for sure, Ireland hangs on by a thread, and Italy has

had to impose a new package of measures, 48 billion euros of

austerity and that country is sliding towards the chaos we have

seen in Athens and clearly Berlusconi is not the man to rescue

the country. The school run story very briefly. A nice column in the

Observer, should Dave and Nick Clegg be doing the school run at

all? What were they doing mucking about taking the children to

school? We want them to be sorted out the country. We only scratched

the surface of some great Sunday newspapers. There have been so many

great stories, thank you. Over to the weather. Torrential rain in

London yesterday. If it rains on St Swithin's Day, it will rain for 40

days, so says the legend. St Swithun's Day was Friday, July 15th,

It is not set to rain non-stop for the next 40 days but it is looking

pretty mixed. Today there will be rain or showers which could be

heavy for most of the UK. Persistent rain at times affecting

West and Scotland, Northern Ireland, northern England, later pushing

into northern Wales and the Midlands. For everyone else it is a

mixture of sunshine and showers. Quite cool for July, temperatures

up to 20 degrees. Tonight low- pressure throws in more rain across

much of Scotland, Northern Ireland and later into the Midlands and

Wales as well. Mild and breezy, temperatures staying in double

figures. From Monday, still a mixed picture across the UK, Western

Areas more prone to seeing persistent rain. For the rest again

it is deja-vu, a mixture of sunny spells and showers. A breezy and it

will stay cool again, temperatures firmly fixed in the teens. That it

We were discussing earlier on one group who have very serious

questions to answer by the Metropolitan Police whose

investigations into phone hacking was so half-hearted for so long and

twos officers seem to be so closely connected to the Rupert Murdoch

empire they were meant to be scrutinising. I am joined by Yvette

Cooper. Good morning and welcome. Good morning. You have seen yet

more allegations about police officers taking money and being

very close to the Rupert Murdoch people as well. What is your

assessment about the scale of the crisis by the Metropolitan Police

this morning. We have got a drip, drip now of allegations and

information that raises serious questions. I have been calling for

some time for full disclosure from the Metropolitan Police, for them

to be open and transparent about all of their links with News of the

World. I think they should do that, they should have done so already.

The trip means there is a cloud created over the Metropolitan

Police because of this. I think both the leadership and the Home

Secretary need to take some action now to make sure you can resolve

this for the future. You cannot have this sort of thing tarnishing

the reputation of the Met. Do you think Sir Paul Stephenson is now

fatally damaged? I think he needs to act now to restore confidence in

the leadership of the Met. That includes full disclosure,

recognising mistakes that have been made and setting out action for the

future. I hope he can do that. But I also think the Home Secretary

needs to do that as well. This is partly her responsibility, what the

confidence is in British policing. She should be demanding for

disclosure and she should be setting out what action the Met

knees to take to restore that confidence. At the moment she is

saying all of this can wait until the judicial inquiry. It cannot

possibly wait for what could be years for conclusions from the

judicial inquiry. We need is to be resolved now so that police

officers across the country can get on with their job without their

reputation being affected. This is a difficult situation because the

people running the Met are responsible for huge issues, the

anti-terrorism affairs, the future of the policing of the Olympics,

never mind the day-to-day running of law and order around London. We

now have a group of people who are being got at day after day in the

newspapers with serious allegations. We both need them, or people like

them, and yet they are all in deep trouble, aren't they? The important

thing is you have got to have confidence in the way policing is

taking place. There has got to be public respect for policing as well.

I've been Sir Paul Stephenson has been doing a good job in fighting

crime in London, but he needs to act on this now, but so too does

the Home Secretary. She needs to demonstrate it she has got full

disclosure and full answers to these questions which we have not

yet seen publicly. And also that she has continued confidence in the

Met, but if so she needs to say so and not simply hide and wait for

this to go away. For example, the question about the Met taking on

Neil Wallace, the deputy editor of the News of the World, that is a

very questionable employment judgment. There are important to

answer these questions, but it is important about Downing Street

employing the editor of the News of the World. The Home Secretary is

not pursuing this, I hope it is not because she is reticent because the

same cloud hangs over Downing Street as well. Surely the

difference is that Neil was's employment was generally not know

it either by politicians or buy anybody else at the time? We have

got that allegations about the resort, again involving the same

individual. What is your view about that? You are right, transparency

is at the heart of that, but we do not have transparency Bonn the

Prime Minister and what security checks that he did on taking on

Andy Coulson, just as we do not have those answers from the Met

about Neil Wallace. I do think there are still questions for

Downing Street. On the issue of the stories in the front page of the

Sunday Times, we have not had answers on that one. That looks

like a separate issue from the questions about hacking, but we do

not know the answers yet. What is important you have the full

disclosure, you have the full information, but I have not seen

the answers to those questions, but I think the Home Secretary should

have made sure that she has seen the answers to the questions. She

cannot just leave this to the judicial enquiry. She needs to make

sure we can all have confidence in the work the Met is doing. Labour

is having a good campaign so far or all of this and yet there was

nobody who was closer and keener to sell Cup to Rupert Murdoch and his

editors in the old days then you former boss Gordon Brown, you

former leader Tony Blair. Any thoughts about Labour's

embarrassment about getting so close to people you are now

castigating and excoriating? Miliband has said there should have

been stronger questioning in the past. The relationship between the

press and politics, as well as the relationship between the press and

the plays, is one which should have exposed earlier. That is why it is

right that Ed Miliband has now been talking about the importance of

addressing this cross-media ownership issue that was not dealt

with, was not talked about, before. He is right to say we should have

stronger controls on cross-media ownership. That is what we will be

put into the judicial inquiry. We should not have those sorts of

concentrations of media power and we have to learn lessons from what

has happened, not simply have two wakes up outrage when we do not

take action for the future. I used uprise Andy Coulson was invited to

Chequers after he left the employment of Number 10? Very

surprised. It raises further questions about the judgment of the

prime minister, we know he was warned against taking on Andy

Coulson and taking him into Downing Street by a whole series of very

senior people, including the Lib Dems, including in the media and

the newspapers. He chose to do so and he has chosen to continue that

connection sense. It raises questions about what they discuss,

just as it raises questions about what was discussed at BSkyB and the

continued contact with News International as well. Any friendly

advice for Gordon Brown whose intervention was scarcely helpful.

He is clearly angry about all sorts of things, and yet he seems to be

made the allegations which are either impossible to substantiate

or he has not be able to substantiate. I have not seen the

information Gordon Brown says he has one of these things. I do know

that for him and for the whole family it was very distressing to

have to deal with the things that were being said and being written

in the newspapers about the health of their son. I think that did

cause great distress for them and he has talked about information he

has and I have not seen that, but these are the reasons why we need

this judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of all of that. Yvette

Cooper, thank you very much for joining us.

It has been a foundation shaking time for the Rupert Murdoch empire,

but the scandal has also sent shock waves to the rest of the

establishment. I am joined by the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

Welcome. Can I start with the business of cross-media ownership?

A lot of people, not just in the Labour Party, are saying this is

the moment where we should ensure that nobody ever again is quite so

Dominic in the media world in this country. What is your view of that?

I think it is undoubtedly true that when you give up one individual, or

a small number of people, a huge amount of power without proper

accountability, things go wrong. That has happened here as it does

in other walks of life. We need to look again in the round at the

plurality rules to make sure there is proper plurality in the British

press. A healthy press is a diverse one, where you have got lots of

different organisations competing. That is what we need. But even if

you get the plurality rules right, which I hope we do, and we have

been calling for it for years, none of that will matter an issue also

hold people to account in the media. At the moment you have the

ludicrous situation where you have editors of national newspapers who

make or break the reputation of innocent individuals in the blink

of an eye, and yet they themselves are not held independently to

account. It is even worse. If anything goes wrong, the editors

decide how things in the press should be pleased. In no other walk

of life do you have people acting as judge and jury. That needs to

stop and change. Let me be clear about the plurality issue. It would

have to be enshrined in legislation. Would you be prepared and be

sitting down with Ed Miliband who has called for the same sort of

thing? As I say, my party has been calling for a long time for a

change. Are you happy to sit with people? I am very happy to sit with

people. The inquiry we have set up will produce ideas about what we

should do. If we can act on it on a cross-party basis, as we did last

week in the house of Commons, all the better. Let me give you one

specific proposal. At the moment you can only apply this test of

plurality, whether there is enough diversity, when you have a business

transaction when you have got to examine. I do not see why that test

is not applied all the time. There might be changes in the way the

media operates whereby one operation gets bigger. At the

moment the plurality test cannot be applied in those circumstances.

That presumably would mean if a newspaper became more successful

because it was a good newspaper, it could suddenly be too successful.

The main focus is cross-media ownership and with the new media

that are growing up and developing that is what you need to look at.

That is what the inquiry will do. But the point I am trying to make

is whether it is the plurality tests or the fitness test, it is

being applied in a very snapshot way. We need to look at the way in

which concentrations of power might evolve over time. I think a lot of

good can come out of this if we are brave enough to look at the rules

on competition and plurality and who is fit and proper to run our

media organisations. To allow the inquiry independently to make

recommendations, because you do not want politicians to be in charge

entirely. What about foreign ownership? The Americans have got

very strong rules about people who can control their media. We do not

and we do not even have strong rules about whether people have to

pay taxes on that. I think Rupert Murdoch is a US citizen because he

needed to become a US citizen in order to own Fox News. I think this

is a complex area because you cannot impose those nationality

rules within the European Union. It is a complex area. Of course it is

a legitimate area we should look at, but this key thing of plurality,

diversity and accountability so you have independent regulation, not

regulation which is in the gift of politicians. I do not want to live

in a country where politicians Bill comfortable with the press, that

would be a disaster. But that is very difficult. You are taking a

different line from Ed Miliband he says he wants a continuation of

self regulation. You are saying it should be statutory regulation. A

lot of people cannot see how you can have a statutory system that is

properly outside the purview of politicians, that politicians

cannot get at. Every time there has been a crisis in different pillars

of the established but the response sensibly has been to give more

power to people who are independent of those people who have got into

trouble. When the MPs got into trouble, the response was to take

all responsibility for their pay and expenses out of their hands

into an independent body. What has been the response after the banking

crisis? Independent regulators are given more power. I do not see why

the press should be unique in having a so-called ethics committee

overseeing had the code of conduct for editors works. The only people

on it are editors of newspapers. In no other walk of life would you

have people acting as judge and jury for their own mistakes.

have talked about politicians and the press, but we have not talked

about the police. There is a perception that the police have

been on the take from the bottom to the top. Are you worried about

this? I am incredibly worried. From the public's point of view, the

fact that their cynicism in politicians and the press might

have deepened is not entirely surprising. I think when that

public stats losing faith in the police it is much more serious and

we are in some trouble. That is why I think it is very important the

commission should answer the questions that have been put to

them and answer the questions very fully. You mean Sir Paul Stephens

and. Yes. You think his position is tenable still? I am not going to

judge them now until they have given the reassurances and the

answers to the questions that have been put to them. The questions

need to be answered very fully and The coalition has had a rough week,

a rough few weeks on this. Yes, the Liberal Democrats were protesting

about Rupert Murdoch in the old days, partly because you were too

small a party for them to court, I suspect! How uncomfortable are you

with the way David Cameron has behaved around Andy Coulson? Did

you say to him yourself you should not employed this man?

anxieties as a party about the hacking allegations, Andy Coulson

and so on, we made them publicly before the election. Nobody should

be surprised we came at this from different standpoints. The Prime

Minister has explained why he gave Andy Coulson what he calls a second

chance. We did discuss it, of course we did. Did you say to him...

If you don't mind, I am not going to give you a word-for-word account.

It was an issue we raised publicly before. Ray used by you? Of course,

David Cameron and myself spoke about it. At the end of the day, it

was his appointment, he has explained the reasons why he made

that appointment. And you got the impression he wasn't going to

flinch on this matter, it was personal and he wasn't going to

change? He explained why he did it and the circumstances in which he

did it. Vince Cable lost a large part of his job for saying he was

going to war on Murdoch and he must now feel vindicated and you must

ask yourself why he was booted out of that part of his role. I don't

think it is down to the feelings of any one politician. This is down to

a crisis in public confidence. We have the banking crisis, a total

collapse of basic decency in the way the press conduct themselves,

and we need to make sure we get something good coming up out of all

this would create greater distance between politicians and the press,

and make sure we have a healthy, free, plural, accountable press.

you think you had enough influence at the early stage in the coalition,

thinking of Andy Coulson, the NHS and many other issues, where you

seemed to have a deal which looked relatively equitable and yet as

things have turned out, your party has been brushed to one side?

don't agree. If you look at things that have happened in this country,

whether it is taking over a million people out of paying income tax

altogether, whether it is more money to children from

disadvantaged backgrounds, you entitlement to young toddlers from

three childcare, sweeping away a barrage of legislation which eroded

civil liberties, renewing and refreshing the way we do politics,

these things are Liberal Democrats. Some people say either Lib Dems

have too much influence or the Conservatives do, that is the

nature of coalition. Do you think the last two weeks has changed the

nature of the coalition? He it has changed fundamentally the way in

which the political class and the media class Interact, and hopefully

it will create greater accountability. You are charmingly

not answering the question I asked, which was what about relationships

inside the coalition? Relationships evolve all the time. Have the last

few weeks changed it? A sharp spotlight has been cast on a very

murky part of the Establishment, interactions between the

establishment, the press and the police. This will have been

improved because of events over the last two weeks. From where you are

standing, those relationships, the Conservative Party, Rebekah Brooks,

the Murdochs, the Labour Party, Rebekah Brooks, the Murdochs, that

was unhealthy, it had to change? have always been a staunch critic

of the tendency of Labour and Conservative to constantly fall to

their knees obsequiously towards very powerful vested interests in

the media. That I hope will change. If anyone had doubt about the

fundamental judgment of this coalition government to deal with

another of the crisis, namely the crisis in our public finances, look

at what is happening across the Channel. This is very important,

look at what is happening in the United States about wrangling on

the debt ceiling. I wish it was otherwise, but surely there can be

no one left now who agrees the fundamental decision, the biggest

decision this coalition took, that we needed to Yank this country back

from the precipice and into an area of greater economic safety. If the

Murdoch story happened, we would be talking about nothing apart from

what is going on in the euro-zone and America. How worried are you

that we are on the edge of another serious global financial crisis?

Incredibly worried. The gravity of the uncertainty in the United

States, which is a product of political gridlock, and the growing

fiscal crisis in the euro-zone is immensely serious. If anyone thinks

somehow we can wash our hands of it and say -- and turn our backs on it,

we can't. I believe we should play an active role behind the scenes to

help euro-zone members to make the reforms necessary to create a

strong prosperous euro-zone in the future. It is worse than that

however, is it not? The Office of budget responsibility report looks

ahead to an era of 40 years of Viva considerably higher taxes or a

smaller state, or both. That is why I know that although many of the

decisions we have taken around popular, they have been taken to

avoid long-term problems. Whether it is pensions, public services,

the balance between taxing and spending, how we deal with the

deficit, these are big decisions we have taken now because if you don't

sort it now, our children and grandchildren will be the victim of

the mistakes and the failure of this generation to sort things out.

What, in essence, does Rupert Murdoch have to say to the House of

Commons on Tuesday? He needs to come absolutely clean about what he

knew, about what his senior executives knew, and why this

culture of industrial scale corruption, so it is alleged,

happened without anyone higher up taking responsibility for it.

have got a kicking again in the papers today for doing the school

run. Let me let you into a secret, which I suspect many fathers feel,

I like being with my children and I love having the opportunity to take

them on the school run. This is 2011, not 1911, and the idea that

fathers can't remain dedicated his in attitude that belongs in a

previous century. Thank you for joining us. Now the news headlines.

A deputy prime minister has said politicians should be brave enough

to look again at the rules on media ownership to ensure plurality and

competition. Nick Clegg was responding to a call from Ed

Miliband for a change in the law to stop any one proprietor from owning

as many newspapers as Rupert Murdoch. News International is

currently under investigation for phone hacking at the News of the

World. The company has placed another set of adverts in this

morning's newspapers saying it is committed to putting right what has

gone wrong. The MoD says a soldier from the

Royal Lancers has been killed in Afghanistan. His family has been

informed. The soldier was on a joint patrol with the Afghan

National Army in Helmand province when he was shot. In investigation

is being carried out into reports he was fired on by an Afghan

National Army soldier. The next news on BBC One is at

midday, back to Andrew and guest in a moment but first a look at what

is coming up after this show. Today, has Britain been corrupted?

We will hear from a former top police officer. And we are asking a

teacher turned porn star if we should shut up about sex. Are we

too scared about offending Muslims? Go to the website to join the

debate. Now, one of the most successful

bands of the 1990s was the Irish quartet The Corrs. The siblings

have gone their separate ways professionally, but Andrea has just

released an album of cover songs. Recently she has been winning

critical acclaim for her acting on stage in London. Welcome. This is

an album which you say in the cover notes of one of your albums came

from a dark place, and you almost turned away from music. What was

that about? I kind of stopped doing it. I know it sounds dramatic what

I said, but I just wanted to live a quiet and normal life. The producer

of the record John Reynolds got in touch with me, and loved my voice,

wanted to make a record together. So I did that. I was mentioning the

acting, which has gone very well for you. will we see you back on

stage Again? Yes, I hope to do it all my life. I really love it, I am

passionate about it. Tell us about the song you are going to sing now.

Most people know it as a Donna summer's song, State of

Independence, and it is epic. An amazing song. We have had a lot of

gloom and despair, but this is a happy song. Yes, but I think it is

relevant actually. That is all we have got time for today. I am going

filming so next week my colleague James Landale will be here and his

guests include Dame Kelly Holmes and no doubt plenty of politicians.

For now, we leave you with Andrea # State of life, may I live, may I

love # coming out the sky, I name me a

name # coming out silver word for what

it is # it is very nature of the sound,

the game Home, be the temple of your heart

# home, be the body of your love # just like holy water to my lips

# Yes, I do know how I survive # yes, I do know why I'm alive

And be with you # day by day by day by day

# Time, time again, it is said # we will hear, we will see

# see it all in His wisdom hear # His truth will abound the land

# this truth will abound the land # this state of independence shall

# this state of independence shall # Say, yeah -e-yay, yeah-e-yo yeah-

e-yay, yeah-e-yo... # Be the sound of higher love today

yeah-e-yeah # Time, time again, it is said

# we will hear, we will see # see it all in His wisdom hear

# His truth will abound the land # this truth will abound the land