10/07/2011 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning, and welcome, well, Good morning, and welcome, well,

here it is, the very last edition of the News of the World, which has

closed after 168 years. Its editor had told its journalists, "It's not

where we want to be and it's not where we deserve to be",

end of the day, where journalists always deserve to be, down the pub.

They may have gone, but tabloid journalism certainly hasn't. By the

way, the News of the World isn't any longer Britain's best selling

newspaper, that's now The Sun, still very much in business, so gleeful,

please note. Joining me today, two journalists who know the inner

workings of the newspaper world pretty well, Fraser Nelson is or

a columnist for the News of the World, he also edits the Spectator,

and Amanda Platell, former Fleet Street executive and now columnist

for the Daily Mail. A heck of a week for politics, journalism and

police and it's a lot bigger than just the death of the News of the

World, which had titivated so many Sunday more thankings. We're going

to see a new many of press regulation, and perhaps arrests and

then the question of the Murdoch takeover of BSkyB. One man who has

led the attack on this, is the Labour leader Ed Miliband, ending

years of Labour attempts to cosy up to the Murdoch empire. Big mistake

say quite a few columnists this morning. Does he realise the

he is taking? He's with me morning so we will find out and

about his initiative in the Commons this week to delay the takeover.

the Lib Dems, there is an element of "we told you so", what do they

about the Prime Minister's judgment of hiring Andy Coulson as his

communications chief? We'll find out from Chris Huhne. We're not

going to talk about the media however, as Energy Secretary, what

is Mr Huhne going to do about bills going up by 18%, pushing more

households into fuel poverty? this morning, the journalist Rageh

Omaar, who became a household name reporting for the BBC during

Iraq war, is presenting a series about Islam and the Prophet

Mohammed, he's here to discuss that and the controversy it has already

caused, and he will also talk about the terrible drought and hunger

East Africa. First the news. Good morning, the last edition

the News of the World has rolled the presses, ending 168 years of

publication. There are emotional scenes as staff left their offices

after putting the paper together for the last time. In other

developments, the family of Milly Dowler will meet the Prime Minister

tomorrow, and the senior police officer who carried out a review of

the phone hacking case in 2009, and said there was no new evidence, has

apologised. Andy Moore's report contains flash photography. Led by

their editor, the staff of the World walked out of work for

the last time, they put together special farewell edition of the

paper, one they said they could be proud of. This is not

wanted to be, and it's not where we deserve to be. The final tribute to

seven and a half million readers. This is for you. And for the staff.

Thank you. The print run was doubled to 5 million, all the proceeds

go to charity. But even as the paper was rolling off the presses,

were new developments in the story. Tomorrow, Milly Dowler's family and

other hacking victims will meet David Cameron and Deputy Prime

Minister Nick Clegg, they will also meet the Labour leader, Ed Miliband.

The police officer who carried out a review of the phone hacking

years ago, and said there was no new evidence, has apologised.

to the targeting of Milly Dowler's phone, Assistant Commissioner John

Yates told the Sunday Telegraph: Rupert Murdoch is flying into

Britain today, on what's said to a scheduled visit. Before leaving

the States, he was asked Rebekah Brooks, the woman who

his operation in the UK. So I was wondering if Ms Brooks still has

your full support? Total. It's Fleet Street tradition for a long

serving retiring worker to be banged out by his colleagues. In this case,

the News of the World editor did the honours for all of his staff. At

least six police officers have been injured in rioting in County Antrim,

Loyalists attacked the police in several towns near Belfast, it's

thought the trouble started because of a dispute about flags. This is

not a town which is used to trouble. But last night, the rioting in

Ballyclare was sustained and serious. For several hours, a crowd

of up to 100 Loyalists threw petrol bombs and other missiles at police,

it's believed six officers were hurt, five of them were injured when

rioters crashed a hijacked bus into a police Land Rover, they used water

cannon to try to stop the trouble. Tension had been building in the

town yesterday. Loyalists staged sit down protest and blocked a road,

claiming police had removed union flags. Unionist politicians say

local people had agreed police could take down paramilitary flags, but it

not expect other flags to be taken down too. People will be worried

about this flesh outbreak of violence. Campaigners are calling on

the Ministry of Defence to clear two pilots of any blame for the crash

which killed all 29 people on board a RAF Chinook helicopter in 1994.

The pilots were accused of gross negligence, but an independent

report, due to be published in the next few days, is expected to say

the men shouldn't have been blamed for causing the accident, which

happened in bad weather, on the Mull of Kintyre. British aid agencies

the public is responding with overwhelming generosity to a

fundraising appeal launched to millions of people affected by

drought in East Africa. have been donated so far, but the

Disasters Emergency Committee warns that without international

intervention, the situation in East Africa could turn into a

catastrophe. The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge are continuing their

to California, they spent the evening at a black tie reception in

Los Angeles, to promote up and coming British actors and directors.

The event was organised by BAFTA, and was attended by Hollywood stars

including Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise. Guests paid

to be there. That's all from me for now. I'll be back just before

with the headlines. Thanks Louise. To the front pages,

you have seen one of them already, here are some more. The Sunday Times

says 12 people face jail over hacking and a picture of the Duchess

of Cambridge, Kate Middleton, as was, there. One of two women

dominating the front pages, the other being Rebekah Brooks. The

Observer: Paddy Ashdown, the latest of the people coming forward saying

he warned David Cameron about that. The Independent on Sunday, war of

the world, about the future of News International, the other woman

dominating the front pages, Rebekah Brooks, there. And the Mail on

Sunday, "Blair bid to silence MP who exposed Murdoch". I should say

Blair says that's not true. Kate Middleton again. And then Murdoch's

troubles only get worse, Scotland on Sunday, a rather odd story, it

the Church of England is the Church of England is threatening

to pull millions from News Corp the scandal. Many didn't

relationships that! Welcome to you both. Fraser, you have been a

columnist for a long time on News of the World, so

with you, and that final historic edition. I've got the very first

issue of the News of the World on my wall at home, it's funny to be

holding the very last one here. think they have done it brilliantly,

just shown all these incredible front pages which have punctuated

British history actually. When you walk into the News of the World,

they have got them them all up the wall, and it reminds �you what

successful newspaper this is, at its peak it sold 8 million, no one

ever done that. When newspapers die, normally they run out of readers or

money, this is really quite something else. This has never

happened before, that a proprietor has closed a successful newspaper.

No, because there is always the view that you can basically cleanse,

change editor or ownership, bring them back again. It shows how

seriously Rupert Murdoch takes this. He sees it as a threat to

empire and he wants to send a message to everybody in Beijing, if

you screw up like this, you will the price, but nobody can quite

believe the commercial audacity, - He is not a sentimental fellow,

is he? Clearly not. But the funny thing is, it's difficult certainly

for journalists not to be sentimental about this incredible

newspaper and all the good it has done, which is something nobody will

listen to at the moment, such are the scale of the sins of the private

investigators, and for those journalists who were involved in the

paper, this is the great irony, all these bad things were done by the

men in raincoats, the PIs of the phone, who would do all sorts

of methods. But authorised by people at the top, many of whom are

still there, unlike the journalists. That is a huge mistake, for which

the newspaper has paid with life. If it's true that there is

�100,000 that was going to private investigators every year, as

a former newspaper editor and executive, �100 has to go through

the books. It has to be seen by executives at some level. Who they

are, who knows. But it is incredible, just looking at the

front pages, it was quite Colin Myler, the editor who I worked

with for 20 years, a fine and honest man, we couldn't find him on the

newspaper, he would usually be down at the local Catholic church saying

mass, he is so clean, but he has written this lovely obituary for the

paper, I guess that's what you call it, he says the advertisement for

our first ever edition announced: as the novelty of nations and the

wonder of the wormed. That is incredibly - of the world. That is

the thing about the paper, so many people who were very influential

read it, *. They have reprinted the first page here inside, and it gives

the mission statement, which was exactly the same as it is today, a

paper which will have enough intellectual calibre to engage the

rich because they want to know, by the sheer number it sells

the poor, this is the kind of paper they want to be read in Buckingham

Palace and down the pub. And it actually was. What I was struck by,

going through it, was that - there's not a great deal of cont rigs about

the recent events - contrition about the recent events, of course

written for their readers, but it seemed in a sense it was

Rupert Murdoch, saying look we've achieved, look what

killing off, remember us. will be. Just think how high the

emission * motions were - emotions were running. These were journalists

with nothing to do with the that were committed. They spent the

last five years making sure everything was right and they pay

the price. You can imagine the emotions as they were putting the

paper together. Lots of interesting coverage elsewhere. You have to

give the star columnist, normally you only get to write about the

death of a father or mother in a column, this is the first time I

have read about the death of a newspaper. She puts it well, and

says: this red top Monday Lord Goldsmith has been a - monolith has,

no corporation has ever been able to ignore it. That's true. That's why

despite the the terrible things happened and the ghastly hacking, it

is a sad day for - I said, you that journalists are sentimental

so journalists are, but also it's a ruthless trade and you can pick that

up from some other front pages. This is incredible. Because

suddenly, there are 7 million readers out there who some of them

will want another Sunday what does the Daily Star do? Wills

to be Beckham's godfather! and Kate, we want three children,

private interview. All of them, Cheryl Cole on the front. Sunday

Mirror, big Harry Potter promotion, they're doing the classic red top,

celebrity, bit of offer to get the readers in.

million readers up tore grabs, where will they go? In America, when

shut newspapers, the readers have gone. Our industry is in

contraction, it could be this is simply accelerating this one way

reversal. You have chosen Andrew Gilligan in the Sunday Telegraph.

Yes, the News of the World, for its faults, was the premier

investigative newspaper in Britain. What comes after, is this an

opportunity for the politicians to make a power grab, to try to muzzle

the British press in a way they always wanted to do? The papers have

never been more vulnerable. Gilligan makes the point, he is a great

investigative journalist, he is saying that this scandal could,

terms of simply by empowering the regulatory forces, stop journalists

asking awkward questions. A lot of people are worried about that across

the trade. Let's turn to the politics of all of this. Amanda, The

Observer has an interesting story, Paddy Ashdown. It has indeed.

Ashdown among other people has said he actually warned Cameron about the

dangers of hiring Andy Coulson, and he rather arrogantly dismissed this,

Nick Clegg was also warned and raised it with the Prime Minister

and he was just seen off. Cameron was just determined to bring him on

board. But you also have this crazy situation at the moment where you

have Ed Miliband on later in the show, and of course his own head of

communications, Tom Baldwin, there are some very serious allegations

about him hacking into a bank account that have to be addressed.

This is Michael Ashcroft, the Conservative Party then treasurer?

Yes, I was then William Hague's spin doctor so I'm very abreast of this

story, and there are serious allegations to answer. So you have

Cameron having hired someone also shown to be in charge of something

breaking the law, and certainly has questions to answer.

This raises the question of whether politicians have become far too

close to this one newspaper group. There is no doubt that they

slavishly courted, all political parties did, the only reason the Lib

Dems didn't is because Murdoch wouldn't be bothered to see them,

because they weren't important enough. The other element is the

police. The Sunday Telegraph? Yes, they have an interview - an

astonishing interview. Yes, John Yates, who investigated

first time around. Or didn't investigate! He basically has a

mea mea culpa, he says there was a

cover-up at News International in 2005/6, he basically blames the

media organisation as well as himself, and this gives us a taste

of what we're going to be in for in the coming weeks, months or perhaps

even years, as there's going to be trials, inquiries, this story

going to go away, it will be with us for a hell of a long time,

will claim the careers of many more people. Yates here, he basically

heed - he did the cash for honours inquiry, he did that pretty well,

but this he did appallingly badly. He is admitting that. How could all

these huge amounts of hacked e-mails pass his attention?

questions for the police. Let's do some other stories, because there

a lot else going on in the world. As you were talking about earlier,

this terrible drought, it's incredible that we have now the

famine and the drought, we have now raised all that money. �6

It is absolutely terrible, the pictures here in the Sunday Mirror,

you see that picture and you reach for your cheque book. You have a

story about another guest coming on later on. Yes, the Mail on Sunday

has revealed, they say the police confiscated his son's mobile phone,

that's what you do when you investigate, you take the mobile

the blackberry, and they found text to him from Chris Huhne

basically - his son said, "Please dad come clean", and according

the Mail on Sunday, Chris said, "You wouldn't want your mum to end up in

prison", the point being if she did take the points, she was as guilty

as he was, so that shows pressure piling on. There is a bit

of good news at the end of that story, the divorce is in the courts

and he is now free to marry again. Who knows. And everyone

talking about Harry Potter all week, and mourning the last of the movies,

but it is not over, it's just beginning. According to the Sunday

Telegraph, that brand alone is now worth �9 billion, just the brand,

and they want to turn it into the next Mickey Mouse and have

over the world, even on jelly beans. I can hardly wait. And the royals,

an incredibly successful tour of Canada, and the pictures here, this

is a great example of what great value we get from the monarchy,

being a brilliant representative for Britain, Canada is going crazy. It

seems that Kate Middleton is becoming a fashion icon, a style

icon, every much as bit as Lady Diana, and it's kind of funny, we

didn't really expect her to take on that trajectory, but she is.

has been incredible, but also William has had a fantastic tour,

has been able to get out and play polo and land helicopters and things

like that, but even in his walkabouts, there is something of

Diana about him. He was talking yesterday with some children

lost their mother, about how every day of his life, he mourns his

mother and misses her. He has got humanity about him and that Charles

was never able to display, really working very well. A final

story, very good news, a good news story for Andrew Marr. Yes, we had

to get you a nice one. This is this plea to get Botox on the NHS, it's

not for cosmetic reasons, but to get rid of worry lines, with the

of the world on your shoulders or your brow. I think we have

certainly run out of time, thank you both very much indeed. The weather

forecast as well seems to be getting stick in the press, people are

complaining about gratuitous ad libs, so here is Liam, who will not

mention sun cream, barbecues, umbrellas or any sporting events.

Can it be done? Good morning to you. The weather

will quieten down across the UK over the next couple of days, as high

pressure starts to build in, but for now, fairly mixed for the

the day, some sunshine but also some showers, some of which could be

pretty heavy. So for Wales and Northern Ireland, there

will be showers around, could be thundery, particularly into the

afternoon, for Scotland the rain turning prolonged for the northern

half of the country and localised flooding. Sunshine between the

showers, it will feel pleasantly warm, temperatures peaking at 22-23.

Through this evening and overnight tonight, for most of us, the

will tend to fade away, but some prolonged rain affecting

and eastern parts of Scotland, a bit misty elsewhere in sheltered spots,

but mild temperatures staying in double figures. For Monday, a fine

start, with pleasant spells of sunshine, again some heavy showers

developing across most of Scotland on Monday, for the rest of us, apart

from the odd shower, staying mainly dry and a bit warmer with lighter

winds, temperatures up to 24-5. And for Tuesday into Wednesday, many

places dry with good spells of sunshine, just the odd shower

and there. Not too bad for the next couple of days. Back to you, Andrew.

As you cannot fail to be aware, energy bills are going up by as much

as 18% in the latest increase announced by British Gas last week,

energy companies say that rising wholesale prices are to blame, but

it has also claimed hidden green charges are helping to push up the

cost. I am joined by Chris Huhne has been in the papers for all sorts

of reasons. Let's start, one of the things that you were involved in in

your last job as it were, when you were the home affairs spokesman, was

the Andy Coulson business, and you said some extremely robust things

about the danger of bringing Coulson into the No 10

Can I ask, once you had joined the coalition, whether you raised any of

that with the Prime yourself? I certainly raised

with Nick, and Nick raised it with the Prime Minister, and it was

very clear to us that this was personal appointment of the Prime

Minister, it wasn't a government appointment, and therefore we didn't

have any standing to object to it, but it was very clear from what

had said previously that I think, you know, big reputational risks

were being run. So given what you were saying and what Lord Ashdown

was saying, and The Guardian, what does it say about the Prime

Minister's judgment, do you think? The Prime Minister had said that

wanted to give Andy Coulson a second chance, and that's a very

commendable thing to do in life, the reality is that there were very

serious risks being run there, we knew, with Andy Coulson, anybody in

charge of a newspaper needs to know what's going on, and at the very

least either Andy Coulson was complicit in criminal acts or

alternatively he was a very incompetent editor, by the standards

of Fleet Street. Given that, it was a very strange thing presumably,

your view, for the Prime Minister to give him that second chance.

think the truth is that both Labour and the Conservatives over many

years have had an extremely cosy relationship with the Murdoch press,

and hiring call son in the first place was seen as a way into getting

a relationship with the Murdoch press, and after all, the Murdoch

press did back the Conservatives very vigorously during the general

election campaign. Did you think there was something seemy, I

going to say corrupt, but that's too strong, something sticky and

unpleasant about that relationship? I certainly don't think that it is

healthy when one particular newspaper propose prior, who happens

to be the biggest proprietor in the country, and has a very substantial

share of a media organisation, the form of BSkyB, I don't think

it's healthy when politicians take that sort of attitude towards him.

We had him from Tony Blair, who flew across the world to pay court

Rupert Murdoch, and we had it again from David Cameron, and I think that

we need to try and move to a healthier relationship between the

media and the political class. There is a vote coming up in the

House of Commons this week, suggesting that the BSkyB takeover

should be delayed, until after the criminal investigation is over,

because it involves the fit and proper person part of the takeover

law for broadcasting. Do you agree that should happen, there should

a delay? We'll obviously have look at the details of the motion

before deciding what should be in terms of the voting but there are

two separate processes here. One is that Ofcom can at any time

investigate whether the people running one of our broadcast

organisations are fit and proper people, and that's not associated

with the question of clearing the merger. In your view, should that

be done? My colleague, Simon Hughes, has already asked Ofcom

look at that and has had preliminary replies, and I think clearly it is

relevant to that issue, need to know, and I believe we

should have a personal assurance from Rupert Murdoch, for example,

that these practices, these illegal practices didn't merely take place,

you know, were confined of the World. You think other

newspapers were involved as well? There are rumours at the moment

there are civil actions against The Sun, there have been rumours even

that the Sunday Times may be involved in this, and I think

should have a clear assurance from Rupert Murdoch that he believes that

none of his other titles have been involved in these activities,

because clearly, if this is very widespread through News Corp, then

that is very relevant to the issue of a fit and proper person running a

broadcasting organisation. So putting the vote in the Commons to

one side, do you think it would be right and proper to go ahead with

the takeover in the next few while all of this is still up in the

air? My understanding is there been such an enormous response to

the consultation that Jeremy Hunt has put out there that I

will take a considerable time to understand exactly what all

people who responded to that consultation are saying, but the key

test for Jeremy Hunt, and the that that procedure is run, is about

media plurality, in other about the extent to which the media

are diverse, and there is a very important issue there, because

think it is crucial that the press in particular, the press and

broadcast, are diverse, that we are genuinely a liberal democracy,

a lot of different voices. It will be a very interesting test

Liberal Democrat MPs which way they go. We mentioned it earlier on,

have had some trouble yourself in the press. Is the Mail on Sunday

story broadly true? They have taken things completely out of context. I

welcome the fact there is a police inquiry, because it will stop

rubbish stories appearing in Tory newspapers, and get to the bottom of

this and draw a line under it, and that's what I intend to wait and see

the results of. Can I just ask the obvious and direct question, did you

ask anybody else to take points? I have repeatedly denied

these allegations and I stick to that. Let's turn to your

day job, if I can put it that way, which is becoming more and more

embroiled in a very, very difficult question of shooting up energy

prices, not just rising, accelerating enormously. 18%,

British Gas. We already have a lot of people in this country,

particularly pensioners, who are having real difficulties in heating

their houses, and paying their electricity bills, is there nothing

direct that you can do about this? Well, we are doing quite a lot,

the most vulnerable households, like pensioners, for example, we're

putting the current discount schemes, which are voluntary for the

big six, on a statutory basis, and that means pensioners will be able

to get �120 discount, for 800,000 pensioners substantially more as

well. Essentially, we're raising the amount of public money going to help

the most vulnerable people in fuel poverty by two thirds, 67% increase,

on what has happened before, but the key point here, this is just

sticking plaster. Time and again, we have had Energy Secretaries saying,

"We are going to help the fuel poor", but we have to get to

roots of the problem, and that means tackling the inefficient wasteful

homes we have. That's what we're doing, starting next year with

green deal, we're going to have a Bigginslation programme which will

massively save, not just pensioners, but across the country. The real

root of the problems are these rocketing prices. 18%? There is one

thing that a British Energy Secretary cannot do, and that is

control events in the Middle East. If we want to get out from under the

volatility of these world markets, the best way we can do it is to save

energy, make our bills much less sensitive to world market prices,

and get on in the long-term, which is a long-term job, get on to clean

secure green energy sources which don't bounce around with world oil

and gas prices. But to do that, are putting a huge subsidy into wind

farms, which are, you know, they're not even built here, all the

technology coming over is German. This is nonsense. There is stuff

the papers today and over the last couple of days which is just

arithmetically wrong. I mean, the claims of very large amounts on

people's bills are absolute nonsense. The reality is Ofgem, not

the department, this is an independent organisation, estimates

about 10% as a result of environmental levies, designed, for

example, to encourage energy saving. Now what it doesn't do is

account of the impact of that energy saving. That's the effect on gas and

electricity prices, but once you take the effect on bills, you

actually find that we're getting overall bills down in the long run,

and that's crucial. But you have put a huge amount of focus on

need for greener energy, and to get that, you have had to put in what is

in effect a green tax, it's a carbon floor, but in effect a green tax,

and at the same time in effect you are going to be subsidising nuclear

energy, which you always used to say - No, we're not. There will be no

help for nuclear energy in terms of its price? The reality is, we have

the EU's emissions trading scheme, and we have a carbon price floor

support, because we don't think the emissions trading scheme is

adequate. That helps any low carbon generation against carbon

generation. Why do we have the highest prices in Europe? That's

absolute nonsense, we have some of the lowest prices in Europe, and

we had - that is absolute nonsense that story. There are some

senior analysts who are taking it very seriously who say we have

of the highest prices in Europe. This is an extraordinary rubbish

calculation, I am happy to sit them down with our chief economist and

show them why they have that wrong. The reality is we have some of the

lowest energy prices in Europe, we could get them lower. The country

with the lowest energy prices moment happens to be France,

it doesn't rely from oil and gas from a very volatile part of the

world, over 80% of it comes from renewables and nuclear, and so

have electricity bills which are lower than ours, and the recent

increase in electricity in France is just 3%, compared with the 18% which

we're getting from British Gas. So if we want to get off the

vulnerability which we've got to these world markets, we have to move

to low carbon sources. We're not saying one type of low carbon or

another, but we've got to get off that oil and gas fuel hook. What

your direct message to all of people anguished and outraged when

they see they're going to have to be paying 18% more for their gas?

the short run - because about the long run. We're going to

encourage new entrants into the market, more competition, and it is

actually true, go on some of the switch websites and see how much you

can save. Ofgem calculated that if you simply switched to the cheapest

rate at the beginning of last year, people could save up to �200 on

their energy bills. Switching really effective means of the

consumer taking some power, and have also introduced, since the

government came in, a new assurance that people have to be given 30

days' notice before the companies put up their prices. In the old

days, they were able to put up their prices and tell you afterwards.

want to see them take proper control over the price level. Briefly,

Germany has put a complete hold on its nuclear programme after the

Japanese disaster. You have no second thoughts about pressing ahead

so vigorously with nuclear power in this country? We asked the chief

nuclear inspector, a distinguished figure in the field, to look at the

lessons from Fukushima, and he concluded in an interim report

there were no consequences, given that the earthquake in Japan was

65,000 times stronger than the biggest earthquake we've ever

suffered in the UK area. You used to call this failed technology.

you changed your mind? The key point here is subsidy. If we are

going to provide subsidy to nuclear, if investors want to go ahead and do

that, then I believe it part of our energy mix, and that's

the key thing. Investors are telling us that they're prepared to do that,

if it's renewables, if it's nuclear or if it's fossil fuels, coal and

gas with carbon capture and storage, any of those, plus energy saving,

are the right way to ensure we low cost affordable electricity

the future. Thank you very much indeed. More than a billion

add here to the Islamic faith, it's the world's fastest growing religion

and could soon be the biggest, follow the Koran and the Prophet

Mohammed. But who was he and did he teach? In a new series for

BBC2, Rageh Omaar will follow in the footsteps of Mohammed, to examine

his early life, visions. The programme makers were mindful of

tradition, so there is no attempt to make it visual, but it is already

controversial, the Iranian government has threatened action.

will be talking to him in a moment, but here is a clip from programme

one. According to Muslim tradition, Mohammed was meditating as usual,

and he fell asleep, but then suddenly he awoke in abject terror,

his body shaking uncontrollably. He later described the experience as if

an angel had him in such a tight suffocating embrace that he felt

that his life was being squeezed out of him. Rageh Omaar, welcome. They

haven't seen the programme, but the Iranian authorities are already

making menacing noises and suggesting they're going to take

some kind of serious action. Does your blood run cold? No, it

doesn't, because in many ways, this was a programme that one expected

was going to be prejudged from certain quarters before it was

broadcast, quite interestingly, think the Iranian government is

making its own series on Mohammed, so whether it was spiking our guns

to save their own or not, but no, all of us made the programme

expecting there to be people who would prejudge it, but wait

the programme goes out, because it challenges a lot of assumptions and

goes into difficult areas to explain this man, his life and legacy for

Muslims and non-Muslims. able to go and film in Mecca which

most people can't do. Are you a Muslim? I was brought up as Muslim.

Are you Muslim now? I am a Muslim yes. So you were taking presumably

a Muslim point of view in this programme? Because I

the things the Iranians are about is that there might be a Sunni

version of Mohammed, rather than a Shi'ite one. The thing we were

categorical about in making this programme, this has not been done on

British television or anywhere else, filming in all the locations,

just Mecca, but all the key areas of his life, virtually in

his footsteps, this was going to be seen not just from one tradition or

another, we had huge amounts of experts and historians who tell the

story from many different viewpoints, whether sectarian or

non-Muslim viewpoint. What we have produced is a series that captures

Mohammed and kiss life in the whole, - and his life in the whole, and

it's important that was done, because we want the programme to be

explanatory. He is a figure, not just historically and for Muslims,

but in the modern world as well. Very difficult to do three hours of

television about somebody where you can't see the person. How did you

get round that? There are other historical programmes that have been

made, not just purely biographies, that don't show or spend a lot of

time doing reconstructions, that was something we weren't going to do,

but you know it's part of Muslim tradition that he is not depicted.

But he has been described verbally. That's fine. There are some small

Persian miniatures which of course don't show his face, which is

veiled. As a programme maker, I thought at first it was going to

one of the most challenging parts of it, but it wasn't. I don't think it

inhibited or stopped us telling story in detail. Can I just

the famine in the Horn of Africa as well? You have got strong family

connections, your brother is a minister in the government. A lot of

people are saying that had this been 20 years ago, in Michael Burke

territory as it were, there would have been huge global upset about

it, massive campaigns being run around the world, actually in this

country people are passing large amounts of money, but

think there is a sort of, we gone through a period of coarsening

as it were we have become too - aid fatigue? To a certain extent. This

country is remarkable. When at the figures from

Emergency Committee, I relationship and work with the

The Children, who have been working in Somalia for as long as I have

been alive, there is an element that, but it doesn't show in

amount people give. There is a problem journalistcally, all the at

the end of a particular emergency that cameras go, this was two years

in the making at least, but one thing I would say is this isn't just

a thing of drought, it has worsened it, but it's war and politics.

of the accounts of the refugees have travelled into Kenya, speaking

about militant groups holding up their journey, which means that the

youngest children are weakened, I believe those groups are being

shamed into allowing aid agencies work there again, but this is

story which has begun too late, but I think will continue and should

continue, because the world is finally taking awareness that it can

make a difference. Rageh Omaar, thank you very much indeed, good

luck with the programme. The Labour leader has taken up the phone

hacking story with gusto, for the resignation of the News

International chief Rebekah Brooks. Insisting on the

judicial inquiry to get going right away. And now demanding that Rupert

Murdoch's ambitions to take over BSkyB should be stalled. He's

to be meeting the Prime face to face this week, so what

needs to happen? Ed Miliband is with me now. Welcome. Hello. What will

you be asking the Prime do that he hasn't done so far

you have that meeting? There are a range of things that he needs to do.

I think the first and most pressing is that he needs to make clear that

the BSkyB bid, the bid to take over BSkyB, 100% ownership, can't go

ahead until after the criminal investigation is complete. And I'll

perhaps explain why that is in a moment. He also needs to explain the

nature of the judge-led inquiry, and show that it's going to cover

the major issues, because I'm starting to get concerned that it

won't do that. And I also think he's got to answer some questions about

his own relationships with Andy Coulson, the error of judgment he

made in hiring Andy Coulson, and also what he knew about Mr

also what he knew about Mr Coulson's activities, because I think, Andrew,

we've seen a massive change 24 week. The public won't accept

less than the leadership that is necessary from the Prime Minister

and the response to the real sense of outrage the public have

about the revelations around Dowler and all of those issues.

Let's go through these in order then. First of all, the business of,

you've got a motion down in the House of Commons next week to delay

any takeover of the BSkyB - will depend upon you being able to

win over Liberal Democrat and perhaps Conservative MPs

point of view. Is this a motion you're putting down just for

political effect, or is this a motion you could win? I hope we can

win, and let me explain why. We've always thought that the BSkyB

should be referred to Competition Commission,

regulatory authority. The government chose a different course, a course

which relies upon assurances from news corporation about what they

will do and the behaviour in the future. I have to say, after this

week, I don't believe it's right and I don't believe the public will

accept the position whereby this bid is waved through over the coming

months, even if it is in on the basis of assurances from news

corporation, that's why we're this bid cannot be completed, the

process cannot be completed by Jeremy Hunt until after this

criminal investigation is complete. Is that because of the fit and

proper person clause? Two reasons. First of all - after all, we have

seen the head of Complaints Commission this week say

she was lied to by News Corporation, and we're expected to believe

Jeremy Hunt that he can go with this process, this takeover of

BSkyB, on the basis of assurances from News Corporation. Now

think that's acceptable, and I also believe that Ofcom must have a

chance, when this criminal investigation is complete, to

consider the fit and proper person test. And I hope - I say this

Prime Minister candidly, over the next 72 hours, I hope he changes

position on this, because I want to have to force this to

in the House of Commons, but he has to understand that when the public

have seen the disgusting revelations that we've seen this week, the idea,

this organisation, which engaged in these terrible practices, should be

allowed to take over BSkyB, to get that 100% stake, without the

criminal investigation having been completed, and on the basis of

assurances from that self-same organisation, frankly that

won't wash with the public. Chris Huhne mentioned other newspapers as

well, is that a concern of yours, you think this may have spread

beyond one newspaper? I think that the judge-led inquiry needs to

at the culture and practices throughout the industry. That's

what you were saying. You think there should be other

groups and newspapers? In the announcement the Prime Minister made

on Friday, he said the issue of the culture and practice of the industry

would be looked at separately, not in a judge-led inquiry. I think it's

very important that inquiry is judge-led, that it looks at all of

those issues and begins immediately, and also an important point, it

looks at the relationship between the police and newspapers, because

that is another important factor on this, but I do say, just to finish

on BSkyB, I do honestly say to the Prime Minister that I don't

can carry on with business in the way that he has been doing, I

do think he's got to where the public is, and I think

it's right, if he doesn't do so, that the House of Commons gets to

express its view. Quite a lot of the newspaper commentators today

suggest that in taking on Rupert Murdoch and ending what has been

long Labour tradition of trying to get alongside Rupert Murdoch

News International, your former boss Gordon Brown, former

Tony Blair, absolutely at it, have taken on something you don't

quite understand, that you are to be pursued for the rest of your

time as Labour leader by this newspaper group. And that you've

already been warned in fact, warned off doing this. I've tried to do

the right thing. Have you been warned off doing it by colleagues?

I don't think that people at News International were very happy about

what I've been saying this week, but what I've tried to do - Can I ask

you, have they actually warned you not to do it? We obviously speak to

them, I think they were not very keen for me to say what I said

Rebekah Brooks and other things, but that's not so much the issue. What

I'm trying to do this week, and all of us must try and do is

recognise the way the world has changed, because the world has

changed this week, and this sense of - I just want to pause on this

about the public, because the boss in this, and the

have - I think the public have been ahead of the politicians on this

point, and I think this week has crystallised what the

been feeling, this sense of what has happened to morality in parts of our

newspaper industry, what has happened to the sense of right and

wrong among people who could hack the phones of the families of

soldiers who fell in Iraq or Afghanistan, and you know -

therefore we have to, in this moment, understand where the public

is, and we have to respond in a calm and level headed way, but

that speaks to the gravity of moment. Well, in this moment,

you able to say that the relationship between Tony Blair and

Gordon Brown and News International and other newspaper proprietors was

unhealthily close? It was too close. It was too close, it was

wrong? And it was too close in the following respect that we didn't

speak out enough on some of the major issues which people are

talking about, like the issue of press regulation, for example. I'm

in favour of self-regulation, so the press not being told what to do and

told how to regulate by politicians, but the current system doesn't work.

We should have spoken out earlier about those questions. And do you

know, you have got to understand the context of this. Politicians

win elections, they want to support them. If I may say so,

you yourself went to the Rupert Murdoch party, you didn't raise any

of this with him. Yes, and I should have done. Let me explain why I

didn't. We all understand why, because he's so powerful. But

you're making a judgment about how you win support, and also about what

you can and can't do, but I that has changed. I did speak out in

favour of the inquiry into these practices a couple of months back,

but I accept my responsibility, should have spoken out earlier. I

think the question now is how do we make sure that we, as I say, speak

to this moment, and the feelings the public about this, because I've

been struck, as I've talked to people over the last few days, the

sense of revulsion that the public felt, and actually the fact

they have felt this for some time. You would be prepared to say that

the way that previous Labour leaders courted News International was wrong

and unhealthy? I'm not blaming them for it, because in 1992000 as people

may remember, we lost an election when one of our leaders, Neil

Kinnock, was dealt with very badly by those organisations, so it's

understandable, but Tony Blair himself said in his last speech

Prime Minister on the issue of the press that the relationship was too

close, and he was right to say that, and - but let me just make one

point. I'm not saying that contacts between myself and journalists,

propose pricers, are going to stop, that would be naive - proprietors.

Politicians are going to continue to make those contacts. But just like

we mustn't have a press that doesn't speak out against politicians, so we

mustn't have politicians that aren't willing to speak out against

sections of the press when they do wrong by the public. Let me come to

press regulation. A lot of very fine journalists on good newspapers are

extremely worried that what's going to happen on the back of this

is the political class is going to get together and put in a new system

of rules and regulations effectively intending to muzzle the press, you

know, to remove some of the uncomfortable things the press does,

I know all about that, but that we pay for as the price of a free

society and a free press. don't think that's going to happen

I'm not seeking for that to happen. That's why we need a level headed

response to this. What is the nature of the new body that you want

to see? You currently have the Press Complaints Commission, most of

the people on it are editors, so current editors. It doesn't have

powers to investigate really, so that's why it says it was lied to

and couldn't do anything about by News International. It doesn't

have the power to demand corrections in a prominent position, so

example if someone says something that's wrong on page 1, the

correction gets buried on page 23. Would it therefore be acceptable

the PCC to be reformed and improved and given new teeth and allowed to

carry on? I don't think the PCC can do that, I don't think it commands

public confidence, so it needs to a new body. But standing well aside

from the political class? Yes, my instincts are for self-regulation,

because we prize a free this country, and we look to other

countries - so a new self-regulatory body with tougher

powers? That would be my preference. You have been very

critical of the Prime Minister in hiring Andy Coulson, and it's

that was to produce a conduit News International. Can you remind

us where your own press secretary used to work? I have two people

working for me - one who used to work for the Daily Mirror, and one

who used to work for The Times newspaper, and I have other people -

So your director of communications also used to work for Rupert

Murdoch. A lot of people are saying it's same old same old. Let me go

straight to this point, people trying to make a comparison

Andy Coulson, who resigned News of the World over phone

News of the World over phone of the royal, as it - of the Royal

Family, and Tom Baldwin, who works for me. He was engaged on The Times

newspaper including the investigation of Michael Ashcroft

about whom there was massive public interest. But he used somebody

go into Michael Ashcroft's bank account. That is untrue. Because

Lord Ashcroft is very clear that his bank account, he has

the details of it, was blacked into. Lord Ashcroft is saying that Tom

Baldwin hired a private investigator to perform illegal activities.

Baldwin absolutely denies this. you have asked all the right

questions, as David Cameron didn't? Yes, I have. And I have to say

this is pretty desperate stuff, because the Prime Minister must

answer the real questions at the heart of this affair, about his

error of judgment in hiring Andy Coulson, and also the mounting

evidence there now is about the warnings that were given to him

before he brought Andy Coulson into the heart of the Downing Street

machine, warnings from The Guardian newspaper, with evidence that there

was a convicted criminal that had been hired by Andy Coulson,

who had paid the police on behalf of newspapers, warnings from Lord

Ashdown, warnings, I felt, Chris Huhne and Nick Clegg, and it's

Prime Minister has got to come clean on this affair if he's going to lead

the change we need in relation to our press. You have declared

Rupert Murdoch, haven't you? No, I haven't, this is not about a war

with one proprietor, this is saying that the free press is incredibly

important, and a fatherless press, but when they - fearless press, but

when they do wrong by the British people, politicians need to say

that. It's not about one particular proprietor. I asked you earlier on

what you wanted from the Prime Minister, when Rupert Murdoch

off his plane, relatively shortly, what should he do? The first thing

he should do is drop the bid for BSkyB, because he should recognise

that with the cloud hanging over his organisation, it's not possible,

don't think, for this bid to go ahead at the current time, and the

second thing he should do is show some responsibility in relation to

his organisation, because I think it beggars belief. What does

mean? It beggars belief Rebekah Brooks is still in her post.

She was the editor at the time Milly Dowler's phone was hacked.

That was a terrible thing that happened, deletion of messages,

causing further grief to her parents, giving them false hope

she was alive, and the least he should do is say that Rebekah Brooks

cannot continue. The idea that she's still in post, as I say,

think the public can understand that can possibly be the case. This

huge story has blown away a lot of other stories. One of the

it's blown away has been what looks like an almost co-ordinated series

of criticisms of you by Tony Blair, and Peter Mandelson, both saying,

you strip aside all the jargon, basically that you're too far to the

left. I hadn't noticed that. Look, I - Oh, come on. He told the

progress rally that new labour effectively died when Gordon Brown

took over, and that you can only win elections absolutely plumb centre,

and then suggested that you were - Tony Blair is entitled to his view,

I have had good conversations private with Tony Blair, but let me

just say this, it all depends when you think the centre ground is. I

absolutely believe in placing my party in the centre ground, but

there is a new centre ground, that means you speak out on these issues

of press responsibility, a new centre ground that says

responsibility in the banking system, which we didn't talk about

enough when we were in government, is relevant. A new centre

that says people are worried about concentrations of private power in

this country when it leads to abuses, and that's the new centre

ground. So there was a centre ground that Tony Blair was occupying

he was the leader of the Labour Party, but one of the things you've

got to do in politics is you have to run from the centre - I'm

that I'm leading the Labour Party, speaking to the concerns of the

country, and that is what matters, that's what I'm going to carry on

doing. You've got quite an important rule change

Labour Party to give you more power to decide who's in your Shadow

Cabinet. Are you going to use that power fairly briskly, are you going

to reshape your Shadow Cabinet? not going to imminently

Shadow Cabinet, but let me say this, the reason I did that was I believe

it's very important that our party speaks outwards to the country and

doesn't look inwards, and this has been obviously clear this week, but

it's got to be true every week of our time in Opposition. We're

to do something very difficult to a one term Opposition, we've got no

time for self-indulgence or looking inwards, and I came to the view

Shadow Cabinet elections, all that jockeying for position, was the

wrong thing for our party and a distraction. By the time of the

conference, will you have a new team and a new focus? I'm not going

get into that. That would allow you to bring your brother back. He is a

talented person, but he has made position clear. I'm not saying

you'll be the first to know, but we'll see what happens. The general

criticism however, that your leadership needs a bit of dynamism,

tougher direction, is one you would accept? No, I have been very clear

about the direction I am taking, am speaking to the concerns of the

country in a way I think that other politicians aren't speaking at the

moment, other parties, the squeeze on people's living standards, which

is a massive issue, and remains massive issue,

massive issue, people's worry about the next generation in Britain and

what's happening to them, and need for responsibility,

responsibility yes in the benefits system, but responsibility yes also

in our boardrooms as well. A week ahead. Thank you very much

indeed, Ed Miliband. Over to Louise for the news headlines.

Thanks, Andrew. The Labour leader, Ed Miliband, has called on

Murdoch to drop his bid to take over BSkyB television. Mr Miliband told

this programme that the idea of the deal going ahead before the police

investigation into phone hacking at the News of the World is completed

simply wouldn't wash with the public. Meanwhile, cabinet minister

Chris Huhne said Mr Murdoch needed to give a clear assurance that none

of his other newspaper titles been involved in phone hacking.

There were emotional scenes last night as News of the World staff

left their offices after producing the final edition of the paper.

Rupert Murdoch is due to arrive in London later to deal with the

crisis, which forced the closure of the newspaper. At least six police

officers have been injured in rioting in County Antrim, Loyalists

attacked the police in several towns near Belfast, in one incident, a

hijacked bus crashed into a police vehicle. It is thought the trouble

started because of a dispute about flags. That's all from me for now,

the next news on BBC 1 is at 11, back to Andrew in a moment, first

look at what's coming up after the show. Today on Sunday morning live,

is the phone hacking scandal our own fault? Peter hitchens says we get

the press we deserve. Should you fake faith to get your child

the school you want? Go to our website to join in.

Interesting stuff. That's it from us for today. Just time for next week's

show, with exactly a year to before the 2012 Olympics,

going to be broadcasting the programme live from the new stadium

in East London and I will be talking to the Mayor of London Boris Johnson