03/07/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


Andrew Marr interviews Health Secretary Andrew Lansley, BBC Trust Chair Lord Patten and Reagan speechwriter Peggy Noonan. With Rupert Gavin, Helena Kennedy and Chris Blackhurst.

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Good morning. There has been a lot in the papers about a certain


prospective bride, and the scathing criticism she received by e-mail


from her prospective stepmother in law, who told her her behaviour was


staggering in its uncouthness and lack of grace, and that she had


behaved so badly, that she had left the family dog depressed and


anxious. But I'm slightly with Bomber, I have to say. The motto is


nec Habeo, nec careo, nec curo, which translates as, I have not, I


lack not, I care not. This story I suspect is not over yet. Joining me


today for our review of the papers is the Labour peer Helena Kennedy,


Chris Blackhurst and Rupert Gavin. Let's kick off today with the


editorial in the Sunday Telegraph which says this morning that the


quality of care dispensed in Britain to old people, who are no


longer able to live independently, is often abysmal. It goes on to


talk about the thousands of people taken to hospital every year


because of starvation or dehydration. This story of neglect


ought to worry almost every family in Britain. Today, we are joined by


the Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley. We have not heard a lot


from him since the U-turn on the health reforms. I will be talking


to him about the future of social care. Also today, the first major


television interview with the man who has been appointed to oversee


me - and everybody else working for the BBC. I will be asking the new


chairman of the BBC Trust, Chris Patten, what sort of BBC will


emerge after the most severe cuts in the history of the organisation.


And American Independence Day is being marked in London tomorrow


with the unveiling of a statue of Ronald Reagan, who would have been


100 this year. Barack Obama is now amongst those paying tribute to the


way that Ronald Reagan gave America herself confidence back. Today


William will be hearing from his chief speech writer, Peggy Noonan,


who gave him many of his best lines, including one in the aftermath of


the space shuttle explosion. As they prepared for their journey


and waved goodbye, and slipped the surly bonds off the earth to touch


Talks will be taking place on the publication of the Gill Nott


commission's report tomorrow, which will outline how much people should


pay towards their own care. Growing old may be virtually guaranteed,


but the level of care we could get is anything but. 20,000 people are


thought to have to sell their homes every year to pay for it. It is a


highly emotive political topic. Within 24 hours, this man will


publish his recommendations on how the ageing population should be


cared for in the future. He is expected to suggest a cap on


payments for personal care, somewhere between �30,000 and


somewhere between �30,000 and �50,000, with the idea being that


With that in mind, 26 charities are urging politicians to agree on a


con-trick timetable for reform. Among the requests, a plea to get


together for talks, regardless of politics. Last month, the Labour


leader offered to hold cross-party talks with David Cameron and Nick


Clegg on the issue. Experts suggest reform could lead to insurance


companies offering new schemes to cover care costs, but a cap may


force the Treasury to find an extra �2 billion a year. Previous


attempts to reform the system have not taken off. With 1.5 million


over-85s in the UK, and that figure expected to rise further, it is a


political issue which will get more and more prominent.


The Prime Minister has been warned by one of his government


departments that plans for benefits cuts could make 40,000 people


homeless and could even cost more money than it saves. The letter was


written by a senior civil servant at the Department for Communities


and Local Government, and has been leaked to a Sunday newspaper.


Downing Street says the letter is old.


Half-a-million children in England could be at risk of developing


life-threatening liver disease because they are overweight,


according to one of the Government's health advisers.


Professor Martin Lombard says thousands of four- to 14-year-olds


could already have the early stages of fatty liver disease. It


increases the risk of heart attack or stroke. David Haye has lost his


world heavyweight title fight to the Ukrainian Wladimir Klitschko.


They lasted 12 rounds, but the judges unanimously voted in favour


of Wladimir Klitschko. More than 40,000 people had gathered in


Hamburg to watch the fight. David Haye blamed the loss on his broken


Haye blamed the loss on his broken baby toe.


I genuinely believed I could win the fight. I have been having local


anaesthetic in my toe. The whole idea was, fight night, anaesthetise


it, the crowd, the adrenalin, the occasion, I will be able to ignore


it. The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will continue their tour


of Canada today, in the province of Quebec. They were heckled by a


small group of anti-monarchists as they toured the Children's Hospital


in Montreal. Some chanted, French Quebec, others shouted, down with


the monarchy. After two days of being welcomed


like rock stars, this was a different but not surprising


reception in French-speaking Montreal, for Canada's future king


and Queen. This is a small, noisy demonstration by a radical group


who want an independent state of Quebec. Two years ago, when Prince


Charles was here, protesters fought with riot police.


The message is that clear - William, Clear off. The protesters were


vocal, but so, too, were those who had come to welcome to Royal Couple.


Inside the hospital, William and Kate were meeting some of the


children who were being treated here. The royals, who do not yet


have servants, then got stuck in at a catering college. Montreal is


known for its food. William's not known for his cooking skills.


Having dined on what they had helped to cook, they boarded a


frigate to sail to Quebec City, their next stop in a province which


endlessly debates whether or not it wants to sever its links with the


rest of Canada, and with the British crown.


That's all from me for now. I will be back with the headline just


before 10 o'clock. The front pages today... The


observer has got a story saying the leaked letter suggests 40,000


people might be made homeless by the welfare cuts. The Sunday


Telegraph has Ed Miliband offering a truce to the Conservatives and


Liberal Democrats in relation to care for the elderly. And Thorntons,


the high street chocolate company, are closing hundreds of shops. The


Sunday Times has a story about the Olympics boss being paid a secret


cache. The Independent on Sunday has a special report from the Horn


of Africa about the famine there, which it says has been and a


reported around the world. And the Mail on Sunday is having a go at


Prince Charles, saying that he has had nine meetings in 10 months with


senior ministers, and he is interfering too much. Thank you all


for joining us this morning. Let's start with you, Helena Kennedy.


the front of the observer, there is this story about the welfare cuts,


and the Ryzhkov 40,000 people being made homeless. It is an old letter,


but it is one of those things where you have a policy which has not


been thought through, and suddenly, the ministry starts realising what


the fall-out will be. This is about the Department of Eric Pickles


letting the Prime Minister know that actually, if you put a cap on


welfare benefits, you will end up with a whole number of people being


homeless. This is specifically housing costs? Absolutely. We


always knew this was going to be an issue in the south. Absolutely,


housing costs have gone through the roof. It is one of those things


where this raft of cuts, they all looked great in terms of telling


the public how we're going to deal with welfare scroungers and so on,


but many people will be feeling the impact of this. Local councils will


have to pick up the bill. It is going to be very costly, in terms


of the social fabric. And yet Labour are not yet cutting through


very clearly, even on the cuts issue. I think you have got a story


about Ed Miliband, Chris Blackhurst... I have just read this,


and it made me laugh, but then I thought, there is a really serious


point. He gives the same answer five times to five different


questions. You start laughing halfway through because you realise


he's talking like a robot. It is the same answer, the same phrases,


the same words, and you read it and you think, what is he doing? But


there is a serious point, the public want the Labour leader to


stand for something. If he gives the same answer five times, you


wonder what is going on. problem is the headline immediately


above... You have got Ed Miliband, presumably with advisers, telling


him, for God's sake don't sound as if you are too pro-trade unions.


You have to make sure the message is not separated out, and so he


feels he has to give this standard answer, which has got to keep


everybody happy, but keeps nobody happy. But the real thing is that


there are still people, the old Blairites, who insist he does not


do anything which is too supportive of the public sector, and they


really have designs on bringing somebody else in. You would not say


that things are going well at the moment? No, because I think Labour


should be absolutely clear about the way these cuts will affect the


fabric of our society. I think we keep talking about an ideologically


driven Conservative Party which is going to shrink what government can


do for all of us. It is not just the poorest, it is going to be


about the lives of everybody. I think Labour have something to say


on that, and they are not saying it clearly enough. Overture first


story, Rupert Gavin... Quebec, we have had some protests. We have the


Royal Family and Harry Potter as our key export industries. This was


the Kate and Wills brand going international. I must say, I think


it has gone phenomenally well, particularly for Kate. There is a


good contrast in the Sunday Times between when Charles and Princess


Di went there all those years ago, doing exactly the same thing,


planting a tree. You can see how the Royal Family has modernised


itself, because Kate, quite clearly, is better at handling a spade, and


looking very glamorous at the same time. This is part of the


phenomenal job being done to internationalise the Royal Family.


She's coming over as a kind of every woman. She is, and apart from


the boys, -- the poise, beauty and charm which she exudes, the fact is,


she represents the middle classes. This is the transition. Her name is


important. She is Middleton, and that is a critical clue. If


Upperton, I don't think the Canadians would have gone for it.


But Kate, and let's forget Catherine... I don't know why the


Palace wanted to call her Kaplan, because all five Queen Catherines


of this country have had a pretty troubled time. The other thing is,


they together seem to like each other. They talk to each other,


they have conversations. But even the Queen, you do not see how often


having a conversation with the Duke of Edinburgh. Let's turn to some of


the serious stuff, the economy. There's a story here, in the


observer, the demand to curb casino banking, which I'm in favour of


doing. But how it could split the coalition. We all remember that


Vince Cable was a big critic of the way in which the banks had been


working. He wanted to see a separation of retail and investment


banking, back to the old way of doing things. And how that is in


the interests of all of us, as taxpayers. Unfortunately, we have


got this thing that, no, they will all continue as before, but there


will be Chinese walls, the bankers themselves will regulate their own


behaviour - well, I think we have had too much of that already. But


this is likely to cause a real After what happened in the NHS, we


don't know who will win these battles. Chris, you have another


take on this story. Why all the banking system is still in crisis,


while Greece is going up in flames, I'm afraid there is a spread on the


Mail on Sunday and devoted to the Governor of the Bank of England


going to Wimbledon five times. What is fantastic about this piece is


that they have choreographed his pictures with all the moments in


the crisis. While the Greek parliament was meeting, he was


sitting in the royal box with Mike Atherton. There is one of them with


his eyes closed. It gives all of the food he has been eating, tiger


prawns, marinated ginger chilli sauce... To be fair to Mervyn, he


is a member of the All England Club, he is entitled to do this, so why


not? On the other hand, from a PR point of view... So more should


have had a word. Exactly, once is enough. To be photographed five


times in the same week while the world as in financial crisis, it is


not good. It does not look good. One banker or ex-banker who has had


a lucky escape I suspect, Dominique Strauss-Kahn. It is a fascinating


story. The few weeks ago, he seemed to be down and out, yesterday's man,


if one believes the reports that are being written, the case seems


to be collapsing and you start to speculate can he come back? He


couldn't possibly, could he? It is very challenging but I wouldn't be


surprised. The French will see this as an American set-up, and he


becomes the hero from being the anti-hero. If you drill down to


what was going on in the hotel room, we mustn't going to too many


details, but it was not pleasant. The case with Christine Keeler was


the archetypal political Stander, and Jack lied about it saying there


was no impropriety at all. Dominique Strauss-Kahn has not yet


lied, and the politicians have learned that. We don't know that


yet, do we? He has been very careful in not denying that some


form of sexual encounter took place. Don't say that means he will come


back, but I think she has learnt the obvious lesson. It would be a


sad day for women if he comes back. That is not to say he is guilty of


having raped or not, because the presumption of innocence when down


the Swanee at the beginning of this and the coverage, it tells us a lot


about avoiding doing what the Americans do, but for women, if he


get away with this and goes back into government, what does it say


to women? What it means is you can be a prostitute and still be raped,


you can still be a person telling lie about your asylum and still be


raped. Let's move on from the question of one person's


electability to another's. In this case, Michel Bachman who is,


according to the Sunday Times, scooting up the opinion polls in


the United States. There is almost a profile of her hear, and I hadn't


realised just... This is Sarah Palin book with knobs on. -- book


with knobs on. She is incredibly right wing. She says the whole


business of global warming is a hoax, she thinks having health care


for the poor is a crime against democracy, she thinks President


Obama is friendly with the terrorists. She is on the extreme


of the right wing, and yet apparently there is every chance


she might be up there. Scare me. Unbelievably scary. This is America.


Let's come home again and go to the high street. Chris, you have an


Independent on Sunday story. This is shocking. 300,000 shops have


closed, more to close. They publish a list of the chains under threat,


but what is going on here is not just recession, we have got the


whole change of online shopping, out-of-town shopping centres, and


all of this has happened at once. Really there is no solution to it.


One might be to somehow reduce the rent the shops are paying. At the


moment they can only pay up words of rent reviews. Other -- otherwise


town centres are going to change forever. It is a tough time for you


to be taking over a newspaper. Do you think national newspapers will


be with us in 20 years' time? because we are sitting here now and


we are riveted. All these stories have come from newspapers, not from


Google, not from Facebook. We love newspapers. You presumably have got


your own plans for the paper? How have got plans but I am not going


to tell you them now. Come back and reveal all in due course. I hope so.


You have chosen the Wimbledon story, but we need to touch on Harry


Potter. Goodness me, it is another Independent story. Quite grim


posters of Harry Potter looking scary. It is called deathly Hallows


so you are not going to have a knees-up in the poster, are you?


This talks about the number of children who have been encouraged


to read by this Harry Potter phenomenon but I can't recall where


we have seen child actors growing up. Now they are adults. We did the


first premier of the Harry Potter film in November 2001, and this


week we are doing the premiere of the final one. Here we are, 10


years in, inevitably the child actors have transformed into young


adults. And you have the longest red carpet anyone can remember in


London, is that right? Yes, we have the Guinness Book of Records status


for the longest red carpet. I hope it doesn't rain on your parade.


Tradition is it always rains on Harry Potter premiere nights.


you very much indeed. Glorious weather. Flaming June only


spluttered, but July has been golden, even if most of us only


glimpsed it on the telly through our fingers as we watched Andy


Murray fight his annual Culloden. It is nice and simple for you this


week, basically it is another fine summer's day, a bit like yesterday.


There will be a lot of sunshine around, and with light winds it


will feel pleasantly warm. There is some cloud floating through the


Midlands, that should break up a bit. A lot of sunshine to enjoy it


in the south-west of England this afternoon, real warmth in that


sunshine as well. And very sunny in Wales, more cloud developing in the


east of the country. More cloud coming into Northern Ireland, but


still bright this afternoon. Feeling pleasantly warm, the same


across most of Scotland. Might get a spot of rain, the rest of


Scotland enjoying sunshine into the afternoon. Notice the sunshine near


the coastal areas, that is the sea breeze coming in. The cloud


developing will be inland, especially in the Midlands. Perfect


weather for the tennis at Wimbledon today. Another really warm day on


Monday with a lot of sunshine around, but on Tuesday we get a


band of rain coming in from the West followed by sunshine and


So, how we are going to pay for better care for elderly people. We


are talking about basic things like help with washing, getting dressed,


eating, people in their own homes or care homes - almost everybody


seems to agree with the damning assessment by age UK that our


system is close to collapse. Not enough money is being spent, some


people are financed but many others fear they have to sell their houses


to pay for basic care. Tomorrow, a report will be published about this.


Right now, Andrew Lansley joins us from Cambridgeshire. Thank you for


joining us this morning. Can I start right away by asking whether


you also agree with Age UK that the system we have got at the moment to


care for elderly people in their homes or residential homes is


crumbling, close to collapse, and needs to be radically changed?


know we need change in order for it to be sustainable in the future,


and more to the point to deliver quality care. We knew last year


when we came into office that the system of supporting people with


care at home and in residential homes was in great difficulty. It


is why it in the spending review at the end of last year we made


substantial additional provision, a total of over �7 billion over four


years additionally through the grant to local authorities and


directed through the NHS. This year we are providing an extra �650


million through the NHS directly to support help at home, things like


home adaptations and so on. The point made his affair one - we will


not be able to give people the quality of care and support and the


sense of security that they need in the future unless we have changed,


which is why last July as a government we asked Andrew Dilnot


and his colleagues to consider these issues of how we fund care in


the future. This report says innocence that most people are


going to have to get out some kind of new insurance to pay for their


care. People with savings will have to pay through insurance. But the


big debate seems to be if the government will accept there should


be a cap on how much people have to pay for their own care, at around


�50,000. Can you help on that - will that happen? Of course Andrew


Dilnot and his colleagues will produce their report tomorrow and I


will of course first give the government's response to that of


Parliament tomorrow, but I think Andrew Dilnot has set out very


clearly some of the shape of what he will say and I think we are


going to give it a very positive response. We are going to treat it


as the basis for engagement but it is part of the overall question


that needs to be answered. Andrew Dilnot's commission themselves make


clear there are a range of issues within their report the need to be


resolved. Where are captured be said, how it is to be paid for,


issues of the thresholds for example, how means testing should


apply to people in the future so they can contribute to the cost of


their care, and people in residential homes, may raise the


extent to which they should pay for their accommodation costs. There is


a range of issues inside the report, and the big question of course,


questions beyond it of how we deliver quality care, how we give


people proper protection and of course how these issues are to be


paid for. Quite a lot of people watching might think that, if they


get into terrible trouble in their old age with very basic things like


cleaning and feeding and so on, somehow the state will provide. But


that is not the case and it can't be the case, can it? Simply because


of the cost to the taxpayer of doing an NHS style universal


service. You raise an important question because what Andrew


Dilnot's research for his commission has shown very clearly


is that people are very confused about what it is that is provided


through care and support. Of course for those who have no income or


assets of their own, the state does provide but increasingly with the


financial pressures we are seeing that it is not at moderate levels


of need, only when they have really substantial need. If we carry on as


we are, we will have increasingly large numbers of people who are not


supported to be independent and to live comfortably at home, and they


are tending to fall into greater need and more cost to the state


later on. I think it is important for people to remember, if one has


no assets, the state is currently providing. If one needs health care,


the state is providing. If people's primary need is a healthy lead,


there will continue to be health care support. Just on Friday, a


report was produced for me and my colleagues on palliative care, end


of life care, and one of their recommendations is that where


people are right at the end of life, in order to join up health and


social care better, the government should take responsibility for the


When it comes to the social care issues that we were talking about


before, where do you stand on essentially the moral question of,


where people have got assets, houses, generally speaking, having


to sell those houses to pay for their care, rather than pass the


value of the house down to their family? Well, of course, at the


moment, we're in a situation where it is a terrible lottery. A quarter


of people have effectively no substantial care costs, whereas


there is another quarter where the costs exceed �60,000, and for one


in 10, it is more than �100,000. So effectively it is a lottery.


Through chance, some people may happen to have dementia in old age,


and they end up losing everything they have worked for in life. If


people are very rich, they can afford to pay. So, the focus of the


question of paying for care and support in old age does come down


to people who have assets, not necessarily very large amounts of


assets, but things that they have worked for and saved four, and what


we want to do, which Andrew Dilnot makes clear, is to make it possible


for people to prepare for their contribution to costs in old age,


through a partnership between the state and individuals, and for that


preparation to mean that people do not have a catastrophic loss of


everything they have worked for. You're not going to tell us about


the cap today, so let me therefore pursue a bit further on exactly


what the timing will be, and how you will approach it politically.


People will be worried about whether they will have to pay more


in the short term, and they will also see that the Labour leader, Ed


Miliband, wants to work with you, on a cross-party consensus. The


Labour Party's ideas, you guys had a really tough go at before the


election. But it is this something which you can get round the table


on? The first thing to say is, it is important, the reason why I


cannot comment, I have not received Andrew Dilnot's report, and I will


tell Parliament how we will proceed tomorrow. But it is important to


recognise that there are issues in the report that the public and


political parties together have a responsibility to consider. There


is the wider decision on which Andrew Dilnot does not make


recommendations, about how the costs are to be met. And we need to


set it in a wider context. Last month, David Cameron made it clear


that we would work with other parties. It is not just political


parties, we have got the representatives of older people and


carers' organisations as well. Let's move on to the national


Health Service U-turn. Do you now think you got your original plans


wrong? I do not think we got them wrong necessarily or that there was


a U-turn. But what was absolutely clear in March and April was that


many people had concerns, some of them may have been misplaced, but


others were genuine concerns, and there were issues where people felt


very strongly that there was scope to improve what we we are setting


out to do in the NHS. -- what we were setting out to do. This


improvement has produced... Let me just put to you the case which was


being made in the House of Commons, which was that this improvement has


come at the cost of a vast increase in bureaucracy. Shadow


commissioning groups, authorised commissioning groups, NHS clusters,


Public Health England, and, according to the Royal College of


GPs, the number of statutory organisations and a your changes


will rise from 163 to 521 organisations. The latter points


simply is not true. I would invite you to explain how complicated the


current NHS system is, and, as part of what we are proposing to do, we


will be taking two Hall tears of management out. But in the process


we will be using many of the existing organisations. Cancer


networks currently exist, for example. Can you tell us how many


statutory organisations there will be in the NHS after your changes?


No, I can't, because the clinical commissioning groups which will be


established across England, the number will only be determined when


the local groups have come together in order to determine the best


geography for delivering services in their area. It could be 200, it


could be 250. The point is, they will determine that geography


themselves. But we're going to take whole tears of management out. We


need to cut administration in the NHS. We have reduced the number of


managers in the NHS by more than 4,000 and increased the number of


doctors by more than 2000. Let me ask knew about another story in the


news today, the government drive against obesity. We have seen some


fairly disgusting pictures of livers and other organs on our


television screens this morning. Do you think it is the government's


job to tell people what they should be eating? No, I think it is the


Government's job to help people to lead healthier lives. That's why in


the weeks ahead we will be going through a programme to support


people, not lecture them, to give families the opportunity with their


children to have a lot of additional physical activity during


the course of the summer. And it is national obesity week coming up,


and one important thing, which my colleagues are highlighting, is


that people may not realise the nature of the risks if children in


particular become seriously overweight. So, for example, people


think of fatty liver disease as something which is a consequence of


the abuse of alcohol, but actually, there are 60,010-year-olds who


could be at risk of developing fatty liver disease themselves if


they are too obese in the years to come. Thank you very much for


joining us. He was revered by many Americans,


reviled by some, but Ronald Reagan was certainly one of the most


charismatic leaders of the 20th century. He remains a powerful I


can for US Republicans, and even for President Obama. He has invited


Ronald Reagan's widow to the White House, and even drawn comparisons


between himself and Ronald Reagan. Joining me now, Ronald Reagan's


most influential speech writer, Peggy Noonan. Let's start with one


of the most memorable speeches the President ever made.


The crew of the space shuttle Challenger honoured us by the way


in which they lived their lives. We will never forget them, nor the


last time we saw them, this morning, as they prepared for their journey


and waved goodbye and slipped the surly bonds of earth to touch the


face of God. Thank you. That was one of the very, very many moments


when President Reagan was able to cut through and reach people


emotionally, and you work very closely with him. I know a speech


writer has to work with the politician he or she is given, but


tell us a bit about that relationship. I will tell you


something special about those who worked with Ronald Reagan - we


never felt we were working with what we had been given. We felt we


had gone to work for a man we thought authentically great. By the


end of the era, we used to say, no great men are good men. But we felt


there was one great exception in history, and that was Ronald Reagan,


he was a good man. That speech, I should add, the day the space


shuttle Challenger blew up, losing all on board, including a teacher,


which upset President Reagan very much, that was the first thing he


said, the President put it at the end of the speech, the beautiful


words of the poet about slipping the surly bonds of earth and


touching the face of God. That was quite a day in the White House but


we had many such days, it was a dramatic time in history.


Absolutely. There seemed to be something about Ronald Reagan's


innate optimism. He reacted emotionally and directly to the


politics around him, but it seems to have been that optimism which


Americans today are reminiscing about. Yes, I think you're right, I


think his optimism was a kind of faith. And I think his faith was in


the ability - this sounds corny but it is what he believed - in the


ability of the American people to turn the country around at a


difficult time, and to help it and to make it better, as long as the


fetters of regulation and burdens that had been given by Washington


were removed. And so, he, like Mrs Thatcher, devoted himself very much


to trying to remove the burdens on the American people that he felt


had been imposed by a government far away, in this case Washington.


It is quite interesting that President Obama clearly feels that


he wants to learn from Republicans of the Ronald Reagan era. In some


ways he is in the same position, the economy is in trouble, he has


been hammered in the bid terms, which happened to Ronald Reagan as


well. But what do you think Obama is hoping to pick up? That's a good


question. In a brutal, political way, if 40% of the American people


are conservative, and 40% are liberal, a President is always


going for the middle. President Reagan had the middle, and still


has the middle. He is remembered by a 60% of the American people as a


great President. So it is never a bad idea to associate yourself with


that. Of course, he's trying to draw parallels between Obama's


predicament, in economics, and the predicament faced by Ronald Reagan.


But the two of them are going at the predicament from different


directions, which makes the parallel difficult. Watching some


of those clips, I kept thinking of The West Wing, because this sense


of somebody who really feels it, and finds those extraordinary words


at the right moment. I know you were very involved in The West Wing


- can you explain to ask what you were doing exactly? It was


wonderful to work with the great Aaron Sorkin, who was the guiding


light behind that show. He would call me every now and then and


simply say, in a White House, if the President and press secretary


are having a disagreement about education policy, how might it play


out, what might be said? So, there were all sorts of things like that.


I sent him many ideas, I cannot claim he used a great number of


them. But it was a great show. me ask you about your party, the


Republicans, at the moment. There have been all sorts of questions


about who will run. So far, is there a Republican who can beat


President Obama? I happen to think, I will give you an opinion which is


a little apart from smart opinion... Smart opinion is that Obama will


win, for various reasons, including demographics etc. I do not think he


will. The way I look at it, is based is shaky, and the centre does


not love him. Love is an important word here. At the height of his


difficulties, George W Bush had people who would say, I cannot help


but love the guy. Bill Clinton had the same. One thing you never hear


about President Obama is, I cannot help but love the guy. For it is a


cold admiration. I'm not sure, cool observation would be more like it,


I think! One last question, about this statue - sadly Margaret


Thatcher will not be going, but lots of people will be going, but


it is only part of a Europe wide Yes, it has been fabulous.


Residents in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, in Poland, it has


been spoken of how Ronald Reagan and John Paul II all came together


at the same moment in history and work together brilliantly to do


things whose Majesty we actually forget. The Wall fell down, Soviet


communism was defeated. It was an epic moment in history and they


worked so well. Have a wonderful day tomorrow and thank you for


joining us. Can I just add that everybody is invited and welcome


tomorrow. It is at the US embassy in London and it would be great if


Americans visiting here and English men came.


Chris Patten, Lord Patten, was a cabinet minister under Margaret


Thatcher, Tory party chairman under John Major, the last governor of


Hong Kong, European Commissioner and Chancellor of Oxford. Now he


has just taken over as chairman of the BBC Trust. The BBC is not quite


as embattled an enclave of Britishness as Hong Kong was, nor


of course is Rupert Murdoch's empire anything like Communist


China. But with swingeing cuts, the largest in the Corporation's


history, and constant criticism from its foes, the BBC does feel


slightly besieged just now. Chris Patten, welcome. Your new job,


chairman of the trust, some people are confused about what it means,


whether you are first and foremost the cheerleader and spokesperson


for the BBC in the country, or first and foremost the stern


invigilator of BBC misbehaviour, people like myself. How would you


characterise the balance? Getting away from the anorak language, the


management goulash, I think my job as chairman of the trust is to


ensure that the BBC goes on producing fantastic radio and


television programmes, goes on justifying its reputation as not


just the best public service broadcaster in the world but


probably the best broadcaster in the world. You have only got to go


to any other country and turn on the radio and television to realise


how could the BBC is. Not perfect. The challenge for the BBC is what


is going on in the background, the digital will -- digital revolution


and the fact it has got to learn to live with a flat budget. It has got


to take out a lot of costs because for the first time in living memory


we have not had an increase in the licence fee. I am not grumbling


about that, I hope we can pull in our belts while producing high


quality programmes still. The BBC has had 17-20% cuts across the


board, the great debate seems to be about whether those cuts can be


salami sliced away, or whether part of the BBC empire has to be frankly


surrendered. The BBC has to give up a channel or two, whatever, and


pull back a bit. Where do you stand on that spectrum? There is nothing


wrong with salami slicing, provided you end up with the sausage you


wanted. What we are looking at at the moment is how much we can get


through greater efficiency, through greater productivity, and how much


will involve us stopping doing things which we would like to do


but are probably a extendable. We are quite far advanced in that


process at the moment. I would like ideally to be able to settle it


this month. I think it may be more realistic that we can't come to an


agreement with the executive until September but we will do it as soon


as we can, and then consult on the proposals. You got spoken to Jeremy


Hunt about speeding up the process by which the BBC could close a


channel, so the possibility of closing a Channel or getting rid of


something the BBC does now, perhaps online, that is a possibility?


have to look at everything, but the trouble is about this process that


the soon as you deal with specifics, either confirming that they are


fined or not confirming they are fine, you are appearing to make a


public decision about them so it is quite difficult. Looking at the


relationship between the main television channels, I think we can


see symmetries that we could perhaps organise rather better.


Things like people have talked about just putting News 24 on to


BBC Two during the day. We are filling large numbers of hours of


television time at the moment. at night as well. There are a lot


of ideas which have already been discussed about that, but at the


end of the day, as bishops say, I think we should be able to come off


with a very good public service broadcaster for 3.5 billion. One


has to remember it is given to us, we do not have to raise advertising


revenue. Do you think none the less there are some big things we are


doing at the moment, the money might be spent on sport, Formula


One, whatever it might be, in the end the BBC might not be doing?


There will be some things that are very difficult to do in the long


term, partly because of the walls cash from subscription television.


I don't grumble about competition, but if you look at America and


elsewhere, broadcasters, advertising revenue broadcaster's


or public service broadcasters are being driven out of big events


because of the large amount of cash subscription TV has. Talking about


large amounts of cash, what is your take on the storm of criticism


about BBC pay, presenters certainly but also BBC managers? I know there


have been a lot of cutbacks already, but do you think there are still


too many managers being paid too much? Yes, there are three aspects


- first of all the overall BBC pay, and it has been slightly behind the


public sector for the last three years. This year it is slightly


behind Channel 4, ITV. There is second day the question of talent


pay which is going down, partly for reasons that do not have reasons to


do with management, but we need to be more open about how much is


being paid to people overall. As I say, that is falling. The biggest


issue for the public is senior executive pay because what has


happened seems to fly in the face of public service ethos. There are


four aspects which we will be making announcements about in the


next few days. Firstly there is the pain level at the very top,


secondly the number of people who get more than 150,000, that leave a


number of people who are deemed to be senior managers, and falsely the


whole issue of fairness across the board with senior managers getting


some deals which do not apply to others. I think we can deal with


all that and if we do so, we will deal with one of the most toxic


reasons for the public's lack of sympathy for the BBC as an


institution. It sounds to me like you are thinking of something


pretty radical, in terms of the number of people paid more than the


Prime Minister, shall we say. and I have been looking very


closely at what will Hutton said about top pay in the public sector.


This is making sure nobody at the top is paid no more than 20 times


what the lowest person is paid? you look at the relationship


between top pay and medium pay, and I would like the BBC to be the


first organisation in the public sector which get into implementing


some of his ideas. Can I just ask you about - we have seen the green


light for News International to buy the rest of Skye. Sky has a much


bigger revenue now than the BBC. Do you think the BBC is inevitably on


a downward curve in terms of its influence and past dominance in


British broadcasting? No, I don't. You started off with an analogy on


hung Kong, perhaps I can reassure people I am not going to hand the


BBC to the Chinese in five years' time, but I don't think the BBC


should think of itself as under siege from the area and vandals. I


think it is a fantastic organisation and I wanted to be


more flexible, leaner, and I wanted to be self-confident and


challenging, and aware of the principles on which it was founded


and which are still relevant today. I think one of the amazing things


about the BBC for a public service organisation is that it is at the


cutting edge of technology. There is a tribute to John Birt among


others. Can I ask you about universality, which is the idea the


BBC has to offer something to everybody. A very successful


Controller of BBC for said in his speech recently that news and


current affairs were really the heart of the BBC, and that is


presumably something you would agree with, but what about the fact


the BBC should be doing game shows, should be doing pop-music, should


be doing soaps, something literally for everybody. First of all I agree


with Mark and it was a very good speech he gave at Oxford. I agree


with the importance of news and journalism. The BBC is the second-


largest employee of journalists after Chinese television in the


world, but we also have to reach as many of the licence fee payers as


possible. But reach them with programmes which are high quality,


and which do not only entertain but where we can inform and educate as


well. People have sometimes been very critical of BBC Three. I have


watched a couple of fantastic programmes in the last few weeks on


BBC Three, one on young offenders, and another on young Afghanistan.


Thank you for joining us. Now over to Louise for the news headlines.


Andrew Lansley has called for a partnership on the subject of


health care needs to avoid them suffering a catastrophic loss of


everything they have worked for in old age. He was speaking ahead of


the publication tomorrow of the report from the Dilnot Commission.


The next news is 1 at midday on BBC One.


Should the law lets you stab a burglar? Should we out more Sharia


courts? And our faith healers charlatans? In the studio, a former


burglar and a pastor who said his prayers helped raise a man from the


dead. That is it from us. Join us again


next week at the same time. We are going to leave you with a burst of


music from one of the great rock performers of the 20th century -


Andrew Marr interviews Health Secretary Andrew Lansley about the future of social care, the new Chairman of the BBC Trust Lord Patten about major cuts to the corporation and Peggy Noonan speechwriter for President Reagan.

Reviewing the day's papers are CEO of Odeon Cinema Group, Rupert Gavin, Labour peer Helena Kennedy and Chris Blackhurst the new editor of The Independent.

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