26/06/2011 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Conrad Black. The former Daily Telegraph owner who

has been sent back to prison in the US for fraud this week has not been

kindly treated by British newspapers. Why might that be? Well,

here is what he once said about the trade. My experience with

journalists authorises me to record that a very large number of them

are ignorant, lazy, opinionated, dishonest and inadequately

supervised, the profession is heavily cluttered with a --

abrasive youngsters and aged hack, toiling through a miasma of

mounting decred tued. Alcoholism is endemic in both groups. Fair point!

We learned this week after prison Lord black could be forced to live

here in Britain. I am sure he will be made very welcome. Joining me

today for our review of the newspapers two guests I hope are

opinionated but not the rest. The celebrities campaigner Shami

Chakrabarti and Nigel Farage. The Government has had a difficult few

weeks with screeching handbrake turns over its NHS and sentencing

reforms. But there is a quieter revolution going on which ministers

hope will matter mor Moxx and that is in education, the way schools

are organise, the exam system, all changing, this morning I will ask

the education secretary whether the reforms are on track, and with

strikes planned in schools later this week, are the teachers

onboard? Old Labour forgot about the public. New Labour forgot about

the party and we had lost touch with both by the time we left

office. Damning words from Ed Miliband yesterday, but what is to

be done, as the Labour leader approaches hiss first anniversary

in the job. His close colleague Peter Hain is overseeing the

project to rebuild a struggling opposition party. We will find out

how that is going on later on. And there are calls for change in the

justice system following the Milly Dowler case. I will discuss that

with a former Director of Public Prosecutions. Also this morning as

we go into the second week of Wimbledon we will hear from one of

the tournament's greatest champions, Martina Navratilova talking about

her own return to form after a big health scare last year. And

finally... What a voice. Some stunning music from the Maltese

tenor Joseph Calleja. All of that is coming up after the news with

Kate Silverton. Good morning. China's premier has flown into the

UK at the start of a visit which is expected to confirm several huge

trade deals. Hours before he touched down the Chinese

authorities released another leading dissident in what is being

seen as an attempt to counter protests over Beijing's record on

human rights. Arriving at Birmingham airport the Chinese

premier Wen Jiabao. Today, he will be come pining -- combining

business and pleasure in the Midlands. There will be a visit to

the MG car plant at Longbridge. It is seen as an outstanding example

of what business cooperation between the two countries can

achieve. But, like many foreign visitors before him, he will head

to Stratford-upon-Avon. Recordly a fan of Shakespeare, there will be a

short performance of some of the Bard's work. Mr Wen arrived in

Britain from Hungary where he pledged to finance more of the

country's debts. On a broader note he said China would support Europe

and the euro. Its vast cash reserves could prop up some of

Europe's ailing economies. China is keen to invest in Britain. It says

for example that Chinese technology could help the UK in the expansion

of its high speed rain network. Premier when played host to David

Cameron on a trade mission to Beijing last November. Tomorrow, Mr

Cameron will return the fayre in London, and once again business

opportunities will be at the heart of their discussions, though human

rights issues will be on the agenda as well. It has merged inmates in

prisons in England and Wales were paid almost �1.6 million in

compensation over the past financial year. That is almost �4

500 a day. The total includes claims for alleged abuse inside the

prison system and compensation for prisoners kept in jail beyond their

release dates. Rebels in Libya say they are ready to discuss a

political settlement with the Government in Tripoli so long as it

means Colonel Gaddafi leaves. Here the Food Standards Agency has

advised people to avoid eating raw sprouted seeds after an outbreak of

E-coli poisoning in France. Officials are investigating a

possible link between the outbreak in the Bordeaux area and seeds

supplied by the Suffolk firm Thompson & Morgan. The company says

there is no evidence it is to blame. The Sunday Times newspaper says it

has been ordered by a judge to hand a recording of a conversation

between Chris Huhne and his estranged wife to Essex Police.

Detectives have already questioned both of them about claims Mr Huhne

persuaded Miss Price to accept driving penalty points on his

behalf. He denies the allegation. That is all from me for now. We

will be back just before 10.00 with the headlines. Levi Bellfield was

described by the judge at the end of the Milly Dowler murder trial as

cruel and pityless. Those are words Milly's families applied to the

justice system itself. They spoke of the horrifying expense of giving

evidence and having their family life exposed in relentless detail.

The police chief involved in the case has said he is ashamed at how

they were treated. The cry for something to be done has gone up,

but what could that possibly be? I am joined from Norwich by the

former Director of Public Prosecutions. Thank you for joining

us. There has indeed been a lot of hostile comment about the way the

trial was conducted, about the conduct of the defence barristers,

and the judge concerned. But very few concrete suggestions about what

could be done where you have a very very sensitive case like this, and

a family in deep distress, who are really put through the wringer in

court. It is very difficult isn't it. I mean, the key question for

the judge to ask themselves in this situation, is the extent to which

the cross-examination is relevant to an issue in the case, if it is

it must be allowed. In a sense, even if it is distressing for the

witness, the defendant has to be allowed to put his case. Of course

the judge is supposed to stop and will generally stop cross-

examination which is peerly Eboue Si but the judge in this case was a

very experienced judge, a highly regarded experienced criminal judge,

and he decided that the material that was being put to the witnesses

were relevant and admissible. Obviously it was highly distressing

for them. There is a long-standing problem about, for instance rape

victims going into court and facing this kind of cross-examination, and

indeed in the past children too. Do you think there is anything that

could possibly be done to mitigate some of the pain that is caused?

Well, again, this is a job for the judge. In the old days, defendants

in rape cases used to be allowed to cross-examine the victims in person,

and that led to a great deal of abusive conduct in court, with

victims having to relive the horror of what had happened to them. That

was outlawed some years ago. It can be a very fine line between cross-

examination, which is relevant and cross-examination which merely

becomes offensive, and judges have to be alert to that. It is never

going to be a pleasant experience for people in cases like Milly

Dowler's case, to give evidence. It is going to be a horrendous gut

wrenching experience, and one can understand the public humiliation

some of the family members went through, defence lawyers have to

bear in mind, and ought to, if they conduct cross-examination in

aggressive ways in cases like that, it can be a serious turn off for

the jury, and therefore a profundly mistaken tactic. I am not

suggesting that is what happened in this case but the judge has to be

alert at all times to protect witnesses, appropriately, but of

course the imperative is the defendant gets a fair trial and he

must be allowed, however appalling his case is, to put it. So when the

current DPP says there is fundamental questions about the

system here, you would really disagree with that, in the sense

this is about the conduct of individual cases, not about new

legislation or new guidelines. is difficult to see what the new

legislation would be, we have come a long way in the last ten year,

generally witnesses are treated better by the system than they were

some years ago, we have scores of witness care places round the

country. The prosecuting barristers talk to them before they go into

court, which is something that was forbid none the past, so we have

come a long way, there is still, it is inevitable some trials will be

distressing for the people involved and there are no easy answer, which

is why no-one has come forward with a simple solution. It is often a

bad thing to make changes in the wake of particularly distressing

cases, we need to draw breath. about the conduct of the media,

because that was criticised by the family, we don't tend, in my trade,

to analyse ourselves very closely, but do you think there is lessons

to be learned is there? Certainly the media reporting criminal cases

more freely than they were in the past. We remember the case round

Christmas in Bristol where Chris Jefferies the school teacher was

treated appallingly by the media. The papers will pay for it and they

will be paying over large sums of money. I am not in favour of prior

restraint of press. I think we ought to have as free a press as

possible. The press have to be published and be damned. If they

get it wrong they will get hit in their pockets. I don't think we

should be restricted further the reporting of criminal trials. I am

not in favour of that. To sum up, a dreadful care, but the truth is it

could happen to another family again. I think that is true, and

one hopes in future cases judge also take all the care they are

supposeed the take to make the experiences comfortable as possible,

although often it won't be. Criminal litigation is often an

unattractive thing but defendants have to have fair trials and the

end of the day that is the imperative. Thank you very much for

joining us. And so to the front- pages. There will be a lot of

coverage of that Milly Dowler case, which we will come on to later on.

Some of the other front-page, Sunday Telegraph Olympic tickets

farce, and saying the middle classes will loss their

stranglehold on places at church schools. They seem to be running a

civil liberties campaign at the top. Free pashmina. I don't know what

pashmien ma has been done or whether she has been in prison!

Sunday Times crime maps expose your local thieves. And an Olympic

tickets story and that secret tape about Chris Huhne. The observer

middle classes should pay �35thou how for old age care. This is a new

proposal coming out. There is one of the many front-page headlines

about Milly Dowler. A lifetime of killing says the Sunday Express,

suggesting there are other cases involved. Shami Chakrabarti, and

the head of UK Independence Party, Nigel Farage, both with us to talk

about that. Where shall we start? I suppose we ought to carry on with

the Dowler story, it is dominating so much debate this weekend. Front-

pages and inside story, and a number of the, a number of the

papers. I think Lord MacDonald's contribution was one of the more

thoughtful one, this is not easy stuff at all. He is right, that it

is always going to be an ordeal to be a victim or a witness in the

justice system, in the criminal justice system, the question is how

you can, you can balance the fair trial rights of the defendant with

some dignity for those who have to participate as victims and

witnesses. Milly's sister said that the day the family were cross-

examined was the worst day of their live, even worse than the day when

they found Milly's body. Wasn't that because of the coverage. Aim

struck priv -- privacy has dominated the scene with

superinjunctions and in this human rights agenda, this poor family

haven't had no privacy. Is there an argument to say a defendant must be

able to use whatever tools he or she needs. Isn't there an argument

to say that you don't have press coverage until after the verdict

has been reached? The problem with that then, is that people feel it

isn't open justice, and there, you know, we have for example in camera

hearings in family law cases and you see newspaper campaigns about

the injustice of secret justice. This is a jury. 12 people sitting

there that have to make a decision. Absolutely. I would have thought

that could happen without press coverage. It could and it is

possible that can happen in sensitive cases but we have also in

this country, since 9/11 been moving more and more towards secret

justice. In something as important as the criminal justice system for

victims and the wider public and defendant, we tend to wanted to see

justice done, and not just wait for a conclusion to emerge when the

smoke goes up. Very difficult stuff here. What I think is interesting

about so much commentary in the papers is there is a suggestion

that the police are pointing fingers at the lawyers and the

lawyers are pointing at the police. This whole experience was miserable

from for the Dowler family from the moment they were interviewed as

witnesses to the media coverage to the expense of being cross-examined

in court. I think that it is easy for everyone to point fingers at

other aspects of the system. It is harder to come up with anything

that is really constructive. thing that has been, come up by

both the family and indeed the killers daughter is the death

penalty. I mean this has been talked about again. Any possibility

whatsoever? We have had referendum, It won't come back if we are part

of the European Union because membership of that expressly

forbids the death penalty. Taking that out of it, I think there has

been a big change in attitudes about the death penalty. I detect

among the younger generation, there is no great desire for it. I

suspect if we had a referendum, I think the carrot -- the country

would actually reject it. I agree with it. Only China and America

have odd ideas about the death penalty. Let's turn to your next

story. Michael Gove, who is coming on later, the looming strike.

the last few weeks we have seen government U-turns and there have

been, and saying, is this like the Heath government? Is it in trouble?

Nearly three-quarters of a million public sector workers are going on

strike over pension reforms. Michael Gove is at the front line

of this. He has a tough week coming up. The Independent is suggesting

he is going to get really tough, he is going to CRB Czech parents and

find something constructive for children to do at school on

Thursday. I sensed that this confrontation with the unions over

these reforms could be the acid test of this coalition. The Sunday

Telegraph is calling for major changes to the law. Let's keep

moving. Explain to us what crime maps are. I picked this because I

think it is one of those non- stories that is put out as a macho

piece of posturing. We are told there is a website, a government

sponsored website, which will contain the names and the

convictions and the home towns of adult offenders, and tell us what

they have been convicted for. Haven't local newspapers been doing

this for years? The junior minister in the Home Office says he is going

to take on the civil liberties lobby. That's you. Not personally,

but yes. What I think is more revealing than the information

itself is the fact that, in one of the worst recessions this country

has ever faced, opposition and government, busy posturing on law

and order, often with relatively minor tweaks to existing... They

are confusing signals. Tough today, a few weeks ago they were talking

about halving sentences for those who admit guilt. Is it possible to

have a rational debate about law and order? Discuss. Is it possible

to have a rational debate about the Greeks at the moment? There is a

great headline at -- in the Sunday Express. My own view of it is that

Greece is bust, she can't possibly meet her debt repayments, the

sooner she gets out of the euro and reorganises her own debts, the

better. Greece has had its democracy literally stripped from

it. They can't make decisions any more, they are being told, you must

accept this decision. The home of democracy. That's right. They are

taking to the streets in significant numbers, there has been

a significant amount of violence. The Greek parliament votes on

Tuesday whether to accept the measure or not. It is a desperately

sad situation. This country, we should never have joined the euro,

is being kept inside an economic prison. David Cameron has said we

are not going to be involved in the next stage of the bail-out. He said

because we are not in the eurozone, we have not got to help. We have

already committed �12 billion of UK taxpayers' money to the bail-out of

Portugal and Ireland. Through our membership of the IMF, we will be a

pink -- helping with his Greek out. And Cameron is backing Christine

Lagarde to take over from Dominique Strauss-Kahn, who will help with

the. It is going to cost us money. We have the Chinese premier in this

country. The Chinese are buying up most of southern Europe, as far as

I can tell. They seem to be looking to buy some influence. The Chinese

are saying they will buy up Greek bonds. That's fine. It may mean the

Greeks are able to borrow yet more money. But it won't get back to the

basic problem, that the debt repayment level that the Greeks are

facing is simply too high. On the subject of the Chinese... Yesterday,

I had one of those moments. I read that the Chinese premier is due in

London for talks at Number 10. This sets the release on bail, only on

bail with conditions, of eyewear way a few days ago, in context. We

have a piece in the Independent, saying, he is free on bail, but

what about the other prisoners of conscience in China. I was kind of

brought up to believe that with economic progress, will come

progress on human rights. That doesn't seem to be universally the

case. If they buy Greek bonds, they can turn a blind eye to this?

guess I am worried, will we be less critical, less campaigning in

relation to human rights violations in China, that set of all our

problems so much in the shade, if China bones Europe. Only time for a

couple more. -- owns Europe. There have been lots of tickets stories.

Everybody thinks it is a farce. The story that has come out today,

another one of the great benefits of our European Union membership is

that we pay the total cost for the Olympic Games, but we cannot make

sure the tickets just go to British taxpayers. We have to share them

with the rest of the European Union, because of single market rules.

This will make people who have applied for tickets and haven't got

them, hopping mad. You are incredible, you manage it every

time. I didn't get my tickets, I will blame the Europeans! I want to

hear a European aspect to this story. Andy Kershaw. A very much

admired DJ, a terrible time in his private life and he is telling it

all. He rides quite a positive story. It is not something many of

us would want to do -- writes a positive story. He exposes the

blood and guts of a difficult family experience but he writes

touchingly in the Mail review, about how his life was in tatters,

because of marital trouble. And being refused custody to his

children, which is a really important point. There are legal

aid reforms going through, which would mean there would be no legal

aid in custody disputes between parents, because it is not seen as

important. To be refused access to your child, I think, is one of the

worst things that can happen. You need some legal advice. A quick

final thought, Glastonbury. I don't see you as a Glastonbury boy.

quite my thing. A wonderful picture of Nancy Dallaglio being taken a

long in a wheelbarrow. We thought we were never going to see rain. It

is summer, it is raining hard, it is raining hard and thank goodness

for the roof at Wimbledon, because the tennis is still going on.

Absolutely right. Thank you both very much. We have been warned

there is a heatwave coming. London was muggy yesterday but the farmers

have had some of the rain they need. Good morning. A short lived heat

wave, a shock to the system. Temperatures will peak tomorrow.

The sunshine has not reached every way yet. This is the grace seen in

Birmingham. The low cloud will get burned off by the sunshine. It will

be hotter in England and Wales. For Scotland and Northern Ireland,

sunshine. More cloud, showery bursts of rain in the north-west.

The sunshine comes burning through in England and Wales. Towards the

north-west, temperatures near 20 and 22. Widely, the mid- to high

20s in England and Wales. Peaking at 29 in London. A fine evening for

England and Wales but more cloud for Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The rain in Scotland peters out, the low cloud comes through Irish

Sea coast, and it will be cooler and more comfortable in the north-

west. A humid, sticky night for England and Wales. Temperatures, no

lower than 21 in London. Sunshine to begin with for England and Wales,

more cloud for Scotland and Northern Ireland, reign developing

in the east. Showers breaking out from the south-west of England and

Wales. In response to the heat and humidity, temperatures peaking at

32 across the south-east of England and East Anglia. 90 Fahrenheit.

Very warm elsewhere across England and Wales. It calls as you head

further towards the West. By the time we get to Tuesday, it is

cooler and fresher for rest of us, big changes on the way. You will

need your suncream and your umbrella, with some storms on

One of the most confusing weather accounts I have ever heard, I think.

The Labour leader, Ed Miliband, gave his party a stern talking-to

yesterday. It had lost touch, it must change and become more open to

the wider public be on its activist base. A mass movement couldn't be

built by central control, he said. He is keen to take more power to

selecting his own shadow cabinet. He wants to choose his own top team.

Will his MPs back in? Peter Hain is in charge of the project to

overhaul the Labour Party and he joins us. You have come through

with a series of concrete proposals that have been discussed, and it

seems that at the heart of these is the motion that Labour parties

locally have got to open out more to the people around them. And if

they want to have debates at party conference, they have to get

signatures and show it is a popular issue. That is one idea that made -

- Ed Miliband has put forward. We are embarking on a serious

transformation of a political party, the biggest one undertaken in

living memory. Because politics has changed. We are a party, like the

others, still stuck in the past. People don't join parties. There

has been a catastrophic decline of all political parties. We are

transforming the party locally and nationally, to open it up to the

public. And the individuals who feel they want to make their

contributions to our policy and our future. Give me some examples of

what that means. Take those seats which resisted the national swing

against us last year. We did terribly in the last general

election. But seeds that should have gone to the Tories with a

multi- 1,000 majorities like Edgbaston, or Oxford East, were

retained by Labour. What happened? Something important. The MPs

concerned mobilised hundreds of local supporters, who were in the

middle of their communities. We were able to build a movement that

resisted the national swing. What we are embarking on is creating an

entirely new political movement. More people need to join the Labour

Party, or what? Obviously, we would like more people to join, 65,000 B

Barr have joined since the last general election. That wouldn't be

a transforming change -- 65,000 people have joined. We want parties

to embed themselves in the local community, and at the national

level, to run the kind of campaign that Barack Obama ran in beating

the right wing fixing and the dirty tricks that he faced from the

Republicans, to storm that election. I think we are in a much better

position to win the next election if we transform our party in the

way that Ed wants to do. You are saying that Labour parties, not

just the Labour Party, were too inward-looking, thinking about

themselves and not really what was Yes, we were stuck in our own

structures. New Labour did not manage to change it. In fact, it

became more inward-looking. Ed wants to open the party up. So that

those groups in civil society, who want to change and one to oppose

this very right wing, reckless government that the Tories are

leading, can then look to Labour, not to join Labour in the way the

trade unions do, but to have a link with us, put their ideas in, maybe

speak at our National Policy Forum, come to party conference and have

their say, without having to join up the party. Money is crucial to

all of this. 90% of your money... 36% in the last quarter came from

one single union. Hardly any major individual donors. If the

Conservatives and Liberal Democrats push through these new changes to

the law that make �50,000 the maximum possible single donation,

the Labour Party is scuppered, isn't it? The Tories and Liberal

Democrats are roofless in trying to rig British politics in their

favour. Everybody does that a bit. Not in the way they are doing it.

They have broken with the whole tradition of the way the Boundary

Commission is determined on a basis of consensus, what seeds were

represented around Britain. They are fixing that. -- what seats.

They are trying to address the question of political funding,

which could damage union funding. This is not a few Baron's deciding

to contribute to the party, like a few rich people contribute to the

Tories. This is millions of people paying small amounts of money

across the country, through political levies to the party, and

that makes us a much more democratic party than the others.

come back to the question, what do you do if this limit is put in? It

will end your union funding and you What we will do is drive this

project I am leading for Ed Miliband even further, and you know,

Barack Obama didn't have... That would be God for your party

wouldn't it? We are going to do that any way, but we see our part

ther ship with the trade unions was important, because we have a reach

into workplaces none of the other parties do, and we want to extend

that and into the community, but I think once we have thousands and

thousands of supporters linked to the party, they will want to

contribute in small amounts perhaps, but they will add up to large

amounts too, so we get alternative sources of funding. You say turn it

into a mass mem ship party. You cannot be happy, there are strikes

coming up and disputes about the dispute, that a third of Labour

Party funding is coming from one single union? I am pleased that we

are getting funding from whatever source we can. Sure. Because we rup

against a big mountain of funding that the Tories get from rich

people. But what we are trying to do is create a mass movement. I

don't think a mass membership party is on the cards in the way we used

to talk about a Tony Blair talked about it once. We want to create a

mass movement in which the boundaries between the party

members and people outside, whether in communities or workplaces are

broken down, we look out ward rather than in. If we can the that

as Obama showed we can be a powerful political force,

regardless of the right-wing fixes we have to face. Ed Miliband's

putting his proposals to change the way in which the Shadow Cabinet is

selected, that he can choose his own shadow chab net tomorrow. Is

that going to go through? I am sure it will. There are a few voices

against it. Everybody believes the old system is obsoletement he

should be able to pick the best team like a football manager does.

We have noticed that Shadow Cabinet people have not been come ought in

huge numbers in support of the leader over the last few weeks and

months, is this a response to that? No, it is something he has been

thinking about for a while. He feels the old system where Shadow

Cabinet members have to look behind their backs all the time, to see

whether they can win a popularity contest, or to buy a lot of pints

in the bar at the House of Commons, to win votes, the best way to do

this is to pick the best people, he has got a good team but in the

future he wants the very best team, the team that is able to take on

and beat the Tory, that is, why he is driving it through. This is an

example of Ed Miliband being prepared to be tough. I think

people underestimate him. I think he is getting into his stride. His

speech yesterday showed that and he will get stronger. Finally we are

on the edge of huge waves of strikes, by many of the people

contributing money to your party. What is your message to those

people? Should they not go on strike, should they talk? Of course

there should be talks and negotiation, one of the things that

has led to the this situation is the Government's reckless attack on

public sector pensions without being willing to negotiate. Here is

Michael Gove coming on and he is urging parents to break strikes,

that is not a responsible way of resolving the situations, I don't

think political leaders, in opposition or in Government should

applaud strikes or condemn strikes, I think what we should be trying to

do is resol strikes, I used to be a trade union national official.

don't think it is for us to urge people to do anything, I think,

people only go on strike if they have really feel they have no

option. Teachers and others are not strike happy people. What this

Government should do is withdraw their unilateral reckless attacks

on these workers and get round the negotiating table, like everybody

wants them to do and resolve the dispute. In the end that is what

will have to happen. Peter Hain, thank you very much. Martina

Navratilova is one of the greatest champions in the history of tennis,

and like many top players Wimbledon holds a special place if her heart.

From her first victory there in 1978 she went on to win a total of

nine singles tiets. Later she concentrated on the doubles titles.

Last time she won was five years ago. She holds 20 Wimbledon titles

and she has won numb rows other Grand Slams events, but her

legendary superfitness has take an knock. Last year she was treated

for cancer, then she experienced serious health scares climbing

mount Kilimanjaro. When she came in earlier this morning we talked

about the health dramas. I began by asking her about this week's drama

at Wimbledon and unexpected tears from a relieved Serena Williams.

After the match, even Serena said that was unexpected. She was

overcome just happy to be here because of everything that she has

gone through with her injury to her foot and then had a embolism, and

home toe ma, had to have surgery, could have been a life-threatening

situation, so she was just happy to be playing tennis, but now she has

won that first match and had a good cry she wanted to -- wants to win

the whole thing. The Williams sister have been seen as great

machines charging through the competitions, it is interesting to

be reminded they have a hue moon -- human side like everybody else

course they have such an amazing sense of confidence, whether they

are playing or not, they belief in themselves is astonishing. Usually

you have to win and then you have the confidence. They have the

confidence and they win because of that. So they, they have seemed

almost inhuman. You are looking amazing. You are blazing with

energy as you always are It is early for that. I am all right.

have had a tough year. That Kilimanjaro moment when you were up

there First I had the breast cancer scare in the spring, and just got

through radiation when I was here at Wimbledon last year, tried to

climb Kilimanjaro for a foundation I am a member of and had a

pulmonary oedema, which I got because I got sick to begin with. I

had, I ate bad food and generally speaking when people get this, they

have had something wrong with them to begin with. So the altitude

didn't help. It's a serious moment for you wasn't it. Yes, I found out

later that it was life-threatening. It gets you fast. My lungs were

half filled with water and my levels were in the 60s. They had to

get me off. Once I got down I was fine. I should have known something

was wrong because I did want to eat for four days. Soon as I got down

to lower sea-level I but hungry and I was on oxygen for a couple of

days, but well recovered by then. Once they get you off the mountain

you are OK. If I had stayed on one more night I might not be here. So

it was scary after. You are all right now? Yes. Going back to

tennis, one of the things we are seeing beginning to come through,

some of these Chinese players. course. Who have gone through this

seems to be some of -- something of the really tough rig -- rigorous up

bringing that you went through in the old days in the Communist stage

There was all kinds of systems if place here t Communists go at it

seriously, but when you look at it, Lendl came through because his

parents played. The system didn't really train me. The same with Li

Na. But they wanted for doubles players to succeed. They weren't

into singles because they taught they would have a better chance of

winning doubles in the Olympics. Li Na broke away from the system and

look at her success. The system gives you the opportunity but then

really it is still a individual sport and everybody needs their own

individual training, and all that stuff, so Li Na did it on her own.

When you were talking about the Williams sisters, you were talking

about the importance of self-belief and self confidence. There is

probably no game, maybe golf is a bit the same, where a individual

has to maintain concentration and self confidence for quite this

amount of time I suppose. I am thinking of inev tabbibly Andy

Murray, people are saying, watching him saying he seems to be relaxing,

he seems to be enjoying himself a bit more. It is, I mean I'm not

going to say it could be his year because it becomes a ludicrous game

everybody plays in this country, but there is, he seems to have got

that confidence that he didn't have perhaps before. Let us not forget

he is in the area with two of the best player, he has a tall mountain

to climb. That being said, he is definitely enjoying himself more.

He seems to be embracing the competition and having to play well,

to win, because I felt before like he was ticked off he had to play

well. He was like "How dare you play well against me?" he is more

aggressive, he has a better attitude. You never know, that is

one good thing about tennis, even if you do have a bad point you can

get over it. You get on with the next shot, unlike golf where a

mistake could cost you a lot. He is coming into his own. I like the way

he is playing. You sent a message to David Cameron's gay rights

evening, you weren't able to be there yourself. Back in the States

it has been an important time for gay rights activists because we

have had the vote in New York on gay marriage which went through.

You are an Obama supporter but he has not been terribly outspoken o

on this issue has he? He has been supportive of equal rights but

stopped short of marriage. He has been of course a lot more

suuportive of us than President Bush, to my recollection I have not

heard President Bush to say the word homosexual. He kind of, the

only way he talked about it was I believe marriage is between a man

and woman. The New York vote was huge. It is the third most popular

state in the country. In this area cautiously Britain is a bit more...

Little bit ahead. A bit more each but still, you still have a way to

go here, but again you have a Republican leader David Cameron,

more Conservative leader, who is on the same page, with social rights

and social agenda. You have to get back to Wimbledon. I have to go

back to work. The women's field is wide-open and the Williams sisters

are back, and on the men's side. Maria Sharapova is crashing through

as well Maria is the second favourite to win and she is looking

good as always, and being more confident now also after getting to

the semifinals of the French Open, who knows, we might have two new

winners this year. It will be great fun. Thank you. Martina Navratilova.

Now, it's a brave Education Secretary who describes the school

exams system as discredited just as tens of thousands of students are

in the middle of exams so Gove is brave. He believes educational

standards must be driven up and more rigs you exams is the way to

achieve that. Schools are changing with new free school, academies

outside Local Authority control. There is not yet overwhelming

public spup -- support for that so let us hear from Michael Gove.

Before we turn to the exam, I must ask you about the strikes because

that is coming up this week. Yes, Your letter to schools has been

interpreted as saying you think that things should go as far as

parents going in to take lessons. Parents going in to help certainly.

My concern about the strike is two fold. I think there are two areas

that are worrying. If schools aren't open on Thursday, there will

be massive inconvenience for working parents, in particular

single parent who will have to rearrange childcare at short notice.

It is wrong for people who are working hard to have their lives

disrupted in this way, so it is right that schools should stay open.

Maybe they won't be offering the traditional menu but they should be

open so children doing something purposeful. There is another

concern I have as well. I have been worried for some time now, that the

reputation of teachers in this country is not as high as it should

be. They do an amazing job, in other countries teaching is a highs

from tiedge profession. Over the last few years we have been moving

in that direction. More respect has been accorded to teachers and

industrial actions, being on the picket line, being involved in this

militancy will mean that the respect in which teachers should be

held is taken back a bit, I think that would be a shame really, to

all of us who want a better education system Yet clearly

teachers are angry. It has been a very long time, since 1979 teachers

in private schools are going on strike as well, and this is because

they feel that there is nothing else they can do you are not going

to listen to them about their pensions unless they do something

like this? I have enormous sympathy for the position teaches find

themselves in. We have got negotiations at the moment. Main

haen earlier said that the important thing to do was carry on

talking and that is what we are doing. There are proper

negotiations involving the Government, and the TUC and other

unions to make sure we can have pensions that are fair to teacher

and other taxpayers. That is why I think this action is premature. I

was a union member in my youth and I went on strike. I don't think it

solved anything. It only made the situation worse. When we have this

opportunity for open dialogue my Lord to make sure that teachers

gets the rewards they deserve and taxpayers are respected as well.

Let us not have the militancy that will disturb family life, for

hundreds of thousands of people across the country, and also, I

think will mark a retrograde step for the profession at a time when

more and more people are realising how many great teachers we have.

Teachers are only one part of the move for strikes and we seem to be

heading to a confrontation between the Government and many of the

public sector union, there has been talk of the possibility of further

legislation. Yes. Do you think that we are approaching that sort of

territory? I think legislation has to be kept under review. I think

the person who put it best was Vince Cable when he spoke to the

GMB. Nobody could mistake him for being Norman Tebbits younger

brother. He was perfectly clear n the public are inconvenienced, the

demand will be for some change in the law to make sure we do not have

militancy that disrupted family life. You are talking about

something like a requirement for an absolute majority for a strike to

happen. The one thing I don't want to do is to ratchet up the rhetoric.

I think it's important we get back to talking. In particular, I enjoy

the conversations I have with teaching union leader, the

individual lead others testify unions that are going out on strike

are very committed people who want the best in the system. I think

they have made a mistake. I don't want to get into a pitched battle

with them, but what I do want to emphasise is that the public, I

think, have a very low tolerance for anything that disrupts their

hard-working lifestyles. You think I don't know what the numbers will

be, but we want to do everything possible to ensure that schools

stay open, so family life is and disrupted. You were pretty scathing

about the quality of GCSE and A- levels at the moment. Some people

thought it was all odd timing because kids were doing it at the

time. What can you actually do to change these exams? The critical

thing is to look at what is happening to exams and curricula

across the globe. One of the things that has happened is that other

countries have had more rigorous exams, they have had curricula

which are more relevant to the 21st century, and we have got to catch

up. In the last few weeks, the exam boards have made a number of

mistakes, which are heartbreaking for those students sitting exams,

given the wrong questions, or the wrong facts. We need to change, and

one change we are going to implement this week, which will

start in 2012, is to change the way in which GCSEs operate. The last

government introduced modernisation into GCSEs. They turned it into

Those pits could be re- SAT. It meant in-cell of concentrating on

teaching and learning, people were being trained again and again to

clear the hurdle of examination, and that meant less time was being

spent developing a deep and rounded knowledge. Do you think the modular

system of GCSEs is stacking the cards in favour of ever higher

grades at the end of the exams? think it is a mistake and the

culture of resits is wrong. I think we need to make sure, certainly at

GCSE, that you have a clear two year run. More broadly, if you are

looking at the way in which grades are awarded, the real question for

me is not, I exams tougher, or easier than when we were boys? --

are exams. The real question is, are they keeping pace with other

countries? The generation arriving at university are not competing

with us for the likes of jobs, they are competing with young people

from Hong Kong, China, New Zealand, Canada. In all of these nations,

their energy ish -- education system is changing and we have to

keep up. Ofqual is the body in charge of this, they are going to

get proposals from the government this week. What is the timetable

after that? By next year there will be different exams? By 2012. We

asked Ofqual to help us. They recommended that what happened is

all the individual models, that can be taken before the end of the

course, are all taken together. It won't start in September of this

year, because we don't want to disrupt things in mid-flow. From

20th September toff, all new courses will be taught in a way

which means all the models are taken at the end. The other good

thing is that Ofqual are going to make sure there is an emphasis

again on spelling, punctuation and grammar. It was the case that marks

were awarded, then that was swept away in many subjects. Any subject

which as a sustained section of writing, history and geography,

will have spelling, punctuation and grammar once more in the mark

scheme, in order to ensure we prepare people for real life and

for university. These are words and sentiments that a lot of people in

your party will associate with the grammar schools. Your Schools

Minister was very fulsome in his praise for grammar schools and what

they have done to education and social mobility in this country. We

understood that grammar schools were going to be kept at their

current level, there would be no chance of expansion and you were

pretty down on them. Is that changing? We are not changing

policy with regard to building new grammar schools. We are allowing

all grammar schools to admit more peoples. If you have a grammar

school, it can expand the number of people it admits. But in those

parts of the country where there are no grammar schools, in my and

County of Surrey, Hertfordshire, Lancashire or whenever -- my own

county of Surrey. Those high performing schools can admit more

students as well. In Hackney and Hammersmith, there are schools that

people are desperate to get into. They could expand their numbers. We

want to ensure people get their first choice. If selective grammar

schools -- selective grammar schools are a good thing, isn't it

unfair on those parts of the country would happen to not have

them, that you are not allowed to open one? We have had a lot of

conversations about grammar schools over the last 30 years. We have

reached a very English compromise. Some parts of the country to have

kept grammar schools, in other parts the popular mood was to move

against them. I don't think we should on stage that but we should

allow good schools, whether they are, to expand. No new grammar

schools ever? No new grammar schools, but be concentration on

learning the most important lesson. What is most important is what goes

on in every classroom. We have wrongly assumed that only a small

elite can succeed. Only 25 or 30% can go to university or fruit for,

high-earning jobs. That is quite wrong. The experience of other

countries tells us that we can have a comprehensive system which is

comprehensively excellent. What about teachers themselves? One of

the criticisms that has been made is that some people coming into

teaching, without enough of an intellectual mentor background and

cells, to be good teachers in the future. -- mental background

themselves. Teachers are better than ever now, but we need to make

sure the process of improvement accelerates. We will be changing

the way we select and a trained teachers. You used to have to pass

tests and only at the end of your teacher training. There were

infinite opportunities to retake that example but you need to raise

the bar and say we have a tough literacy and numeracy test, and

insist that those people who want to be teachers have good degrees.

Isn't this quite a tough menu for would-be teachers? We are going to

make it harder to come into the profession, you will have to work

longer for a smaller pension and your pay is not going up. Also, you

shouldn't go on strike or protest too much. The very fact that you

shouldn't go on strike is an indication that we are teaching

teachers as professionals. You don't see hospital consultants

going on strike. I don't believe that teachers and headteachers

should. It it within their rights, it is a civil right, but I think it

is wrong in terms of the reputation of the profession. I don't make any

apology for saying that I expect we should have the best qualified

group of people in teaching. And because of the other changes we are

making, teachers at academies, for example, are better paid than ever

before. Thank you for joining us this morning.

The Education Secretary, Michael Gove, has warned that teachers may

lose public respect for their profession by striking this week.

He urged the teaching unions to continue negotiations with the

government. He said that if parents felt their lives being disrupted by

school closures, there would be demands for furthers legislation to

make strikes more typical. China's premier has flown into the

UK at the start of a visit which is expected to confirm several trade

deals. The Chinese released another leading dissident in what is being

seen as a attempt to counter protests over Beijing's record on

human rights. A quick look at what is coming up

after the programme. Sunday Morning Live is back, and

for our first programme, Nick Ferrari will argue that eminent

criminals do not deserve human rights. Should religious insult

land due in court? And should women stop wearing skimpy clothing? --

religious insult land you in court? Both when he starred alongside

Placido Domingo at Covent Garden, the Maltese tenor Joseph Calleja

had opera critics reaching for superlatives. One reviewer said

that he made him think of a younger Pavarotti. Joseph Calleja is one of

the most eagerly anticipated stars at the Proms in three weeks. He

also has a new album out, The Maltese Tenor. Welcome. Thank you

so much. You started as a choirboy. Indeed. It was the age of 15, at

the behest of my auntie, who lives in the UK, she is English. Close to

Scunthorpe. She heard meet imitate Luciano Pavarotti, and said, you

should join a choir -- she heard me. It all started from there.

Fantastic. In terms of the walls you have enjoyed, you have done

some of the big Verdi and Puccini, any of your particular favourite

composers? Puccini will remain my desert island composer, just

because of the human soul, with all those more to pull strings. Puccini

knew which a string to park right at the right moment -- all those

multiple strings. Malta has been at the centre of the news with

migrants from North Africa coming through, an interesting place at

the moment. It is very interesting and I am very proud of it. Our

national airline was of crucial to the evacuation of hundreds of

thousands of people from Libya when the crisis started -- hundreds of

people. The captain and the flight attendant did it on a voluntary

basis. Very proud of that. That is all we have got time for,