Browse content similar to 19/06/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning, welcome. Before we get going properly today, I'd like | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
:00:47. | :00:54. | ||
just to pause and ask you to listen That is the sound of the greatest | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
sax player in the history of rock music, in my view anyway! His name | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
was Clarence Clemons, he was a big man and he died last night after a | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
lifetime of producing some of the most glorious noises any human | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
being has made. Joining me today for our review of the Sunday | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
newspapers, the broadcaster and former Tory Cabinet Minister | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
Michael Portillo, the Labour MP Yasmin Qureshi, and the columnist | :01:14. | :01:21. | |
David Aaronovitch. No riots here just now but some pretty aggressive | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
warnings of waves of strikes later this month, a confrontation as | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
significant as the general strike of 1926. Well, we'll see. The | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls, who joins us today, warns unions | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
they're being lured into a trap. He wants a VAT tax cut but he's been | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
strongly attacked as a deficit denier in an increasingly bitter | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
row over economic strategy. But what of the public sector unions | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
themselves, whose members are being asked to pay more towards pensions | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
and work longer? I'll be joined by Mark Serwotka, the head of the PCS | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
union, which is at the centre of all this. And as the House of Lords | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
debates its future composition, I'll be joined by its leader, Lord | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
Strathclyde. He admits that the reform deadline may be missed and | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
that delivering what Nick Clegg wants will be very difficult. The | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
Liberal Democrats won't like that. And one of the most creative and | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
unpredictable names in British music will be here. Damon Albarn, | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
former frontman of Blur, creator of Gorillaz and a Chinese-themed opera, | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
has composed what he calls a new English opera based on the life of | :02:18. | :02:28. | |
:02:28. | :02:42. | ||
an Elizabethan legend, the magician Poetry and politics. First, the | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
news with Naga Munchetty. Good morning. Libyan officials | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
claim several people were killed when a NATO airstrike destroyed a | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
house in Tripoli. Nato has confirmed it was operating there, | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
and says it's looking into the claims. Journalists were taken to a | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
residential area where people were digging through the rubble with | :02:56. | :03:05. | |
their bare hands. Jeremy Bowen reports. Local people said the | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
explosion happened at just after 1am. This is a residential area | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
about one mile from a military airfield which has often been | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
targeted by NATO. Journalists were able to work freely at the site, we | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
were taken there by the Libyan authorities. The body of a woman | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
was pulled out of the wreckage. The building which was destroyed looked | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
like a family home. A neighbour, who was also killed, worked for the | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
government. Fire and rescue workers searched for survivors or more | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
bodies under the rubble. It looked like the result of an air strike or | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
missile attack. NATO's mandate is to protect civilians, so if this is | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
what it seems more questions will be raised about what it is | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
achieving. There might be more pressure for a diplomatic solution. | :03:58. | :04:06. | |
This is no kind of pro-Gaddafi stronghold. There have been no pro | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
regime demonstrations since we arrived, since this has happened, | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
and the number of people have spoken to me about their opposition | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
to the Colonel and their desire to see him overthrown. Afterwards we | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
were taken to Tripoli central hospital. A husband, wife and baby | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
were all dead in the mortuary. Another dead baby was brought in. | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
Doctors were working on a man with a bad wound in his arm. Libyan | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
officials said there were other casualties. The government | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
spokesman said the attack had planted seeds of hatred. | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
Here, the Government has been warned that the current approach to | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
treating drug addicts isn't working. The Centre for Policy Studies says | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
more than �3 billion a year is wasted on treatment programmes in | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
England, involving drug substitutes such as methadone. The think tank | :04:54. | :05:03. | |
believes the money would be better spent on drug rehab centres. The | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
policy of prescribing the heroin substitute methadone has been an | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
expensive failure, according to today's report. It says prescribing | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
that treatment impedes and delays adits' recovery. It says fewer than | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
4% of people finish treatment free from dependency and it is time for | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
the coalition to focus on rehabilitation. The aspiration for | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
people on the current system is extremely low and the scale of | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
people in the rehab centres, who can help people change themselves | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
personally and get out of this destructive pattern, is very | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
underrated and on the used at the moment. The report estimates that | :05:46. | :05:53. | |
in England prescribing methadone cost �730 million a year. �1.7 | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
billion in benefit is paid to drug users, and it cost �1.2 billion a | :05:58. | :06:07. | |
year to look after their children. The coalition's new plans argues | :06:07. | :06:16. | |
the report will not work. Success or failure will be considered by | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
whether drug-addict barring treatment. The report says | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
abstinence based rehab is the long- term solution and a simple measure | :06:26. | :06:35. | |
of success would be six months' free from drink and drug use. | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
The shadow chancellor Ed Balls has accused the government of seeking | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
confrontation with the unions over pension reform, but he has warned | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
unions not to fall into what he called the Government's trap by | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
going on strike. He says ministers are wrong to announce changes to | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
pensions for nurses, teachers and other public sector workers, before | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
talks with their unions have finished. | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
European finance ministers will meet in Luxembourg today to discuss | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
new measures to help the Greek government deal with its economic | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
crisis. There are fears that, if Greece defaults, the stability of | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
other countries in the eurozone will come under threat. The | :07:09. | :07:19. | |
:07:19. | :07:21. | ||
Chancellor George Osborne joins the meeting tomorrow morning. | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
The saxophonist Clarence Clemons, whose solos featured on many of | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
Bruce Springsteen's biggest hits, has died aged 69. Clemons was known | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
as The Big Man because of his height and was an original member | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
of the E Street Band. He had been admitted to hospital after | :07:32. | :07:42. | |
suffering a stroke at his home in I will be back just before 10 | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
o'clock with the headlines. Now back to Andrew. | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
Work longer and pay more - that was the message from the Treasury to | :07:51. | :07:59. | |
public sector workers last week. I am joined now by mark, head of the | :07:59. | :08:09. | |
:08:09. | :08:11. | ||
PCS civil service union. -- Mark Serwotka. You have been warning of | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
strikes later this month, and it has been compared to the General | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
Strike in 1926, which seems wildly over-the-top. That is not language | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
I have been using but there will be three-quarters of a million of | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
workers on strike in 10 days' time. I think if the government is not | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
prepared to change course in the negotiations, after that strike we | :08:34. | :08:42. | |
will see unions representing millions more to ballot their | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
members for later strikes. I think that could be in the millions. | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
that would be the biggest such action since 1926? Historically, | :08:51. | :08:58. | |
that would be the case. Four unions have already balloted and will be | :08:58. | :09:06. | |
striking in 10 days' time. There is an economic case against the | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
strikes, which is that it is unfair now for public sector workers to | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
get more generous pension contributions than private sector | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
workers. In the old days they were paid less, now on average they are | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
paid more than private sector workers and they have these | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
generous pensions. Why should taxpayers have to subsidise your | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
members in that way? I think it is unfair that the people who did not | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
cause any of the economic problems are being asked to pay the biggest | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
price. In my union we are losing 100,000 jobs, we have had pay | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
freezes, and now we are being that our pensions, which we negotiated | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
only five years ago with the Labour government, which are costing the | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
taxpayer less over the next 40 years as a proportion of GDP, they | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
should not lose sacrificed because it is unfair. There is a knock on | :10:02. | :10:09. | |
formed a deficit coming up to pay for these pensions. In the old days | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
when people stopped working at 60, they often didn't live much longer. | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
Working until 66 is an inevitable fact of life, isn't it? My father | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
told me when I was young that as technology developed, and the world | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
got richer, people should share in those benefits. My father worked | :10:31. | :10:39. | |
for so long that after he retired he died within a year. Mind, too. | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
If you have contractual promises, we shouldn't fall for that is what | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
this is about. This is a crude effort to make public sector | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
workers pay for deficit reduction. Is there room for negotiation on | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
the subject of the average salary? And that you don't get your pension | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
on the basis of your final salary, but the average salary you learn | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
during your life. In the civil service we agreed that five years | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
ago. We have career averaging. that is not a big issue? For us it | :11:13. | :11:21. | |
is not, but the issue is that what the government are doing it is | :11:21. | :11:28. | |
doubling the accrual rates which half the value of pensions. | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
political case, which Ed Balls has described, is that you are walking | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
straight into a government trap, that you are bound to be defeated | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
eventually and this is exactly what the coalition government wants. | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
They want to take on people like you, rather than defend their | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
economic strategy. They may want to do that, they have no mandate, but | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
if Ed Balls is me representing people, many of whom around �15,000 | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
a year, they work hard, they don't look forward to a big pension, if | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
all that is being taken away and you work longer, what are we | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
supposed to do? Should we sit back and do nothing? Is there any way | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
that the strikes can be called off? What would the government have to | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
do to achieve that? The government would have to say they are prepared | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
to seriously negotiate, that they will not tell us in advance that | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
everything will be worse, that they will look in a different direction. | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
The chances of that are fewer than one, on a scale of 1-10. I think | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
the demonstration on the 30th will show them the anger that exists, | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
and tell Francis Maude and the others, who are frankly very well- | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
off personally, they can't be right to make the poorest and most | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
vulnerable and hard working pay a high price to solve the crisis they | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
did nothing to create. Thank you. Front pages, lots of | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
different stories today. The Sunday Telegraph leaves with David Cameron | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
saying that absent fathers are as bad as drink-drivers. The Sunday | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
Times also has David Cameron on the front page - David Cameron to give | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
power to the people. This is the reform bill that has been much | :13:20. | :13:27. | |
delayed, meant to hand power to people to pay for their own care. | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
The Observer has a story about war crimes files as well. Scotland on | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
Sunday says MPs are going to carpet the Prime Minister over the | :13:37. | :13:46. | |
strategy of the Afghan war. The Express has a story - test drugs on | :13:46. | :13:56. | |
:13:56. | :13:58. | ||
Peps, says EU. Thousands of pets in Britain could be used in lab tests. | :13:58. | :14:07. | |
To review those stories with me, Michael Portillo, Yasmin Qureshi, | :14:07. | :14:17. | |
:14:17. | :14:19. | ||
and David Aaronovitch. I was looking at a story with a great | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
picture. It is about the strikes which are going to happen on 30th | :14:23. | :14:30. | |
June. As you know, tomorrow there is a debate in Parliament on the | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
pension bill. Do you agree there is a danger of the unions walking into | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
a trap? I do agree with that because one thing you have noticed | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
with the government is that the messages, the things they say, they | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
seemed very unsympathetic to public services. There is a constant | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
message that civil services are being overpaid and lazy, and you | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
get that sort of message coming out and these radical reforms being | :14:55. | :15:04. | |
made, I think it is sending the This bit of the crisis was kicked | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
off by the Chief Secretary of the Treasury's speech last week, when | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
he seemed to announce what the endgame was going to be. That | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
people were going to have to work until the age of 66 and were going | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
to have to pay 3.2% more for their pensions. That seemed rather | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
strange, because there were negotiations going on with the | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
trade unions, by some accounts quite fruitful ones. In the | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
Observer it says that the Treasury is retreating on the inflammatory | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
pension plan. They are saying, no, no, these were just ideas, it was a | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
series of suggestions. It didn't sound like that at the time. On | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
this issue of the union's walking into a trap, I rather feel there | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
has been a bit of a cock-up by the Government. I'm not sure they | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
really intended to go out in this manner. It is properly described as | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
inflammatory, I think. Danny Alexander, perhaps, he's been told | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
he has to sound tough, he's relatively new in the top rank. | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
Maybe he was a little bit too tough? A difficult week for the | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
Government. They were accused of trying to do a U-turn, here they | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
are showing that they are not doing a U-turn on something. This comes | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
down to real cuts in real institutions. You've got a story | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
about hospitals? Interestingly, during the time of the last Labour | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
government, every time they tried to do some rationalisation in the | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
hospital sacked her -- sector, they couldn't get a pass their own | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
ministers. Now we have something of a consensus growing up, the head of | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
the nurses' union, the King's Fund, the think-tank, a lot of talk about | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
how the number of these inefficient district hospitals should close. | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
This is a story from the observe the, 20 hospitals must shut. It's | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
the kind of horrible secret that everybody has known for a long time. | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
Some of these places are desperately inefficient places to | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
find yourself in. They actually don't have the expertise. But you | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
can't get anybody to be grey, politically, that they get closed. | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
You get a little campaign group, they frighten the MPs, they look at | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
the wire forest, where a hospital consultant was elected in 2001, | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
then they think they should fall behind it. Michael, one of these | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
hospitals is close to where you were MP? The proposals were going | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
on when I was an MP 17 or 18 years ago. No politician has had the | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
willpower to go and closer to. Even the head of the Royal College of | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
Nurses last week was saying that these hospitals need to be closed. | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
There biggest political story has been Greece, putting the entire | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
eurozone into trouble. Yes, it is everywhere. I picked a story from | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
the Sunday Times, why a Greek tragedy matters to you, a picture | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
of a policeman kicking a young woman demonstrator in Athens. What | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
struck me in the Sunday Times was that they tried to review the | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
possibilities of the future. It says, the view that Greece should | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
exit the euro is spreading amongst politicians and financial experts. | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
Fears that such a move would undermine the euro is exaggerated. | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
This is opening the door to Greece even the euro. I agree with this, | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
by the way. This goes back to when you were in government, the great | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
argument about the inner core and the outer core? Well, we have | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
different speedy Europe's, because some people are in the euro and | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
some people are not. The argument we were making years ago was about | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
sovereignty. When you hear that a European committee should be set up | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
to going to Greece and sell its nationalised assets to raise money | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
to pay off the debt, you do see that they awry implications for | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
sovereignty. Do you think the euro would survive? Would it be a good | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
thing but some of the peripheral economies in such trouble, Greece, | :18:58. | :19:06. | |
perhaps Portugal, to leave the euro? Very possibly. It certainly | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
something the countries could think about. At the moment, they decided | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
they are going to save the you know -- Euro at any cost. We are saying | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
that the cost is enormous in terms of social unrest, social provision, | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
loss of income. It may go on for a very long time. Wider Greek tragedy | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
matters to us is that apart from the fact that we get drawn into the | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
short-term cost, if there is a crisis in Europe then our economy | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
does not grow as it should command in the coalition's plans for paying | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
off the deficit are not going to work out. By all means, why do they | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
talk about an orderly exit from the euro of those countries that are | :19:41. | :19:49. | |
clearly not up to what? Next story? An article in the Observer, parents | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
of disabled children lose �1,400 a year. Basically, what this is, at | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
the moment you get �54 a week through tax credits for children | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
who are disabled. Under new proposals you will only get �27 a | :20:03. | :20:09. | |
week. That is going to hit about 100,000 families. It is obviously | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
going to cause a lot of problems. So, I think the Government should | :20:13. | :20:21. | |
be rethinking this one. American politics? It's actually the case in | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
all of the major quality papers that a lot of the biggest news of | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
the day is foreign news. They are all white the spectre of the right- | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
wing American woman, not Sarah Palin, but Michelle back then. As | :20:36. | :20:44. | |
you can see, she is photogenic, she is very popular amongst a lot of | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
people in America. And, as far as I can say, stark staring bonkers. | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
This is an easy thing for a left liberal in Britain to say about an | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
American politician. But she has a tendency to throw the term Satan | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
into discussions about domestic politics. That doesn't go down well | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
here. According to some of the people I most respect of the | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
Republican commentary field in America, it will not go down well | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
with the Americans either. At the moment, she is number two in the | :21:15. | :21:22. | |
race. Given that the number one is a very boring person,... Very | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
interesting. A lot of her pitch, the Tea Party, it is very strong | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
old fashioned moral values, which we get, in our diluted form, from | :21:30. | :21:38. | |
the Prime Minister? Yes, the Sunday Telegraph, Cameron saying that | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
absent dads are as bad as drink- drivers. He says that fathers that | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
choose to go a wall, walk out on their responsibilities, there must | :21:48. | :21:58. | |
be stigmatised. -- AWOL. I think that is a terrible whirl it, -- | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
terrible word, stigma. In recent decades, because it has largely | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
been abandoned. He's right to say it has been used in the case of | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
drink-driving. We also stigmatise against bigotry. You cannot be | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
homophobic or racist because they have been stigmatised. Here is the | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
Government, earth seeking as a means of policy, to stigmatise a | :22:21. | :22:31. | |
:22:31. | :22:32. | ||
group of people. Good thing or bad thing? It is both. OK! I want to | :22:32. | :22:42. | |
:22:42. | :22:43. | ||
pick up on the Queen story. We have the Queen on her horse? This is | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
regarding the high-speed trains. The Queen is very concerned that if | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
the train goes through the plant route then her horses will be | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
affected. This is London to Birmingham, all sorts of people are | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
desperately trying to sell their houses and getting the Government | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
to buy their houses. Possibly the best picture in today's papers, | :23:05. | :23:14. | |
David? This is the Sunday Telegraph. This is an extinct MI5 agent, he | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
used to keep tabs on the Archbishop of Canterbury. When he was younger, | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
the Archbishop of Canterbury was a subversive leftist. Here he is, but | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
the Socialist Workers' banner upside-down. We were trying to work | :23:27. | :23:34. | |
out what it said. He says in his manifesto that he was a subversive, | :23:34. | :23:44. | |
:23:44. | :23:53. | ||
not a shallow activist. I was a communist, D were a Trott, wasn't | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
Ed Balls in the Conservative Association? Let's finish with | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
Ascot, that is all over the papers again. It's not what it was? | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
horses have gone to do dogs, that's the thing. In the Independent, it | :24:09. | :24:18. | |
says it was more the Royal Family, images of eight men brawling | :24:18. | :24:25. | |
amongst a sea of tattoos and orange cleavage. Helen Wood, Wayne | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
Rooney's one-time prostitute lover, was paraded by it -- like a duchess. | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
Her one offence was that she didn't turn up wearing a hat. That won't | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
With sadly run out of time for the papers. I was running and cycling | :24:42. | :24:49. | |
recently, it felt like being in a car wash. Doused, drenched, hot. | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
If you couldn't guess, it's not looking great for Wimbledon. Things | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
will improve through the week. Today's weather is definitely an | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
improvement on yesterday. This was the satellite picture. The cloud is | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
the legacy of yesterday's weather front. To the north and south, | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
something a bit brighter developing to the rest of the day. Scattered | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
showers drifting eastwards through England and Wales. Where the | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
weather front sits, patchy rain at the moment. It turns more showery | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
this afternoon. Heavy showers are likely, maybe even the odd rumble | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
of thunder. For the north-east of Scotland, a much better day today | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
than yesterday. More sunshine around, the high up to 18 degrees. | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
For Northern Ireland, similar to the last few days. Sunny spells and | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
scattered showers. Turning dry and bright across Wales, with more | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
sunshine, highs of 16 degrees in Cardiff. In the south-west of | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
England, turning a little cloudy this afternoon with rain moving as | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
we head through the evening. Through southern areas of England, | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
more two showers. Not as heavy or blustery as yesterday. With more | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
sunshine, a little warmer. On Monday, England, Wales and Northern | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
Ireland, cloudy with rain. Dry and brighter in Scotland. My advice, | :26:06. | :26:13. | |
make the most of today's sunshine, This week the House of Lords is | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
going to debate proposals for one of the most monumental changes in | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
its history. The Lords would start to disappear to be replaced by a | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
mostly elected second chamber if reform goes ahead. The Government | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
predicts that the first members, senators, they will be called, will | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
take their seats in four years time. But there is a lot of resistance | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
and scepticism. Lord Strathclyde, the leader of the Lords in charge | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
of this, joins me. One of your colleagues, Bernard Jenkins, has | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
asked, rhetorically, whether this is not just another tatty roadshow | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
brought you by the same people who thought that the British people | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
were interested in the alternative vote. He has a point? I don't think | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
he does. We'd been talking about house of Lords reform for over 100 | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
years. In 1911, Parliament passed the Parliament Act and said the | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
second chamber should be elected. Does that say it all? We've taken a | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
long time to get here. For the first time, a government has | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
published a Bill in draft, with a white paper, laying out what an | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
elected second chamber would look like. That's important because I | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
think people need to rebuild their trust in politicians. I believe | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
that in the 21st century if you are going to wield political power then | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
you should do because people have elected you into Parliament, rather | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
than simply being appointed or inherited. Under the Government's | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
proposals, a 5th of those people would not be elected. You still | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
have the possibility of the elected will both the Commons and the Lords, | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
the Senate, whatever the second chamber is, being overridden by a | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
unelected people. That would cause outcry? We have put forward two | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
proposals. One is a 100% elected house, which is a model that many | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
people will find it easy to understand. All we have 80%, with | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
20% appointed. There is a reason to do that, the House of Lords is | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
almost entirely appointed. There is an argument that says we should | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
preserve a small part of Parliament for those kinds of people that | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
would never stand for election, senior civil servants, ambassadors, | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
top soldiers, policemen. Who you might want to get in there for | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
their expertise and knowledge. That's not to say that if you are | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
elected to, you are devoid of expertise and knowledge. It is | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
right that this would effectively be a Senate? Effectively. It is a | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
good word. There are many second chambers around the world called | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
the Zenit. But the Government has said it should be called that. We | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
have said they should be a consultation on what to call it. No | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
doubt a number of people will come up with different ways of how to | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
call a House of Lords when it is devoid of Lords. There is great | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
opposition in your old party and other parties as well. A lot of the | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
opponents are going to be sitting on the committee that will be | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
looking at it? You are quite right. There is a lot of bad feeling about | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
it in both houses of parliament and across all of the parties. At the | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
last General Election all three main parties stood in their | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
manifesto on a commitment to come forward with a wholly or entirely | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
elected house. We are trying to build on that consensus, where | :29:28. | :29:35. | |
there is a firm commitment from the Prime Minister and many others to | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
try and deliver this in time for 2015. That is what we are going to | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
try to do. You are going to try and do it, but you have no chance, I | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
put it to you. Let me be blunt, the general suspicion is that it is not | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
going to fly, it is not going to happen, it's too difficult to get | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
through both houses. Do you have to make a good fist of it to appease | :29:54. | :30:03. | |
the Liberal Democrats? Otherwise There are people in all parties | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
talking about reform for many years. Talking is one thing. And this is | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
the time for action. This is the first time in a generation that we | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
can really move this forward. There is momentum, and if flicking get | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
the opposition party - the Labour Party - to agree in both Commons | :30:21. | :30:30. | |
and the House of Lords, I think we could achieve this goal. But you | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
can't look me in the eye and say you will do it? There are divisions | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
within the parties, rather than between the parties, but because we | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
put such a clear case forward and we are only at the start of the | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
debate, it won't be until another 12 months that we bring legislation | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
forward, I think we can convince people this is the right thing to | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
do. Given that we have got outraged public sector workers arguing about | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
pensions, we have so many problems ahead, the forces in action in | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
Libya and Afghanistan, is this really something that politicians | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
should spend a lot of time thinking about? With tears and important | :31:10. | :31:16. | |
issue. It has been rattling around the constitutional bottom drawer | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
for many years. Just because it doesn't seem to be the most | :31:19. | :31:27. | |
pressing issue, it doesn't mean it is not important. if we had a | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
second chamber that was elected, it would be better for politics, it | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
would hold the government to account. So you are genuine | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
convert? Because you used to be against this. The about 20 years | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
ago I wondered if there was any point to it, but I have studied it. | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
I think the House of Lords would have more authority to hold the | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
government to account, and when it had battles of will between the | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
House of Commons I think it would strengthen its hand. All of these | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
are good for parliamentary democracy. We do have to write in a | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
new constitutional settlement to make sure that the House of Lords | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
didn't override the House of Commons, if it was elected? It | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
might think it had more of a right to speak for the people. It is a | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
key issue, but over the last hundred years we have developed a | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
constitutional understanding. We don't need to rewrite that | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
constitutional settlement today or next year. Over time, as we develop | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
to a fully elected House, yes I am sure that those boundaries between | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
the two houses will be tested but that is not a bad thing. Many other | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
countries do it. Chances of there being a senator sitting in the | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
House of Lords by the time the next election? 20-one? I have sometimes | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
speculated it is going to be very difficult, some have said | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
impossible. I don't think so. This time there is a momentum, a | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
political will, and we can win the argument and there will be senators | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
being elected in 2015. Thank you. For 20 years, Damon Albarn has been | :33:11. | :33:21. | |
:33:21. | :33:25. | ||
one of the most interesting figures As frontman for Blur, he caught the | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
spirit of the 90s with his hyperactive stage act, clever | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
lyrics and stadium filling music. He then went on to find this hugely | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
successful virtual band, the Gorillaz. He has now produced a new | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
English opera, a reflection on the life and times of John, Elizabethan | :33:47. | :33:56. | |
astrologer, mathematician, and it is premiering next month. Welcome. | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
John, one of the most of figures in Elizabethan history - what is the | :34:02. | :34:12. | |
:34:12. | :34:23. | ||
appeal? -- odd figures. ambition was almost impossible to | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
grasp in one thing. His ideas are so broad. He was quite close to | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
being a scientist, certainly a mathematician, close to Elizabeth | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
the first. He did what I imagine was an incredibly important thing | :34:39. | :34:49. | |
:34:49. | :34:49. | ||
for the English. He translated the Euclid into English from Latin. In | :34:49. | :34:55. | |
a way he gave the information that have been the sort of reserve of | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
the Church and aristocrats. He was also the first person I have read | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
to use the phrase British Empire. think he coined it. That is really | :35:07. | :35:14. | |
interesting, and that is how I kind of got an emotional connection with | :35:14. | :35:22. | |
him, by imagining what the British Empire would have been like if it | :35:22. | :35:30. | |
had been informed by John's ideas and less well cinema. Who was the | :35:30. | :35:38. | |
spy master. It seems to have always been interested in Englishness. | :35:38. | :35:47. | |
has everything there. It has that connection with the more pagan | :35:47. | :35:55. | |
aspects of Englishness. It doesn't... It alludes to the age of | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
reason but isn't quite there, and some of the ideas that he was | :36:00. | :36:07. | |
trying to express our sort of, in a way, very modern ideas. We are | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
going to hear some music at the end of the show, which has an almost | :36:13. | :36:20. | |
madrigal quality to it. It is a serial, a gentle piece. At first I | :36:20. | :36:28. | |
started writing it purely as a composer, and I didn't imagine | :36:28. | :36:37. | |
myself inside the story or sort of in this sort of modern look at it, | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
but I just felt it was more about England than just John. He was this | :36:42. | :36:49. | |
marvellous frame to sort of express things that I couldn't really do | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
necessarily in Blur or... But I do find a connection to it, it is | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
weird. Some of the songs could come from that world. I don't really | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
know what world I am meant at the moment but it is an interesting one. | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
Obviously Blur were at that peak of Britpop, and stadium bands and that | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
bigger sound, and since then you seem to have been constantly | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
looking for new textures and different kinds of complexities in | :37:18. | :37:28. | |
:37:28. | :37:29. | ||
your music. I am thinking of monkey, the opera. Yes, I think I just find | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
all music, there is something in everything. When people go to | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
Manchester to watch this English opera, what is it going to look | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
like? What will they see on stage? We have kind of split it into the | :37:43. | :37:52. | |
three realms. We have the celestial realm, where there is a consort of | :37:52. | :38:02. | |
:38:02. | :38:07. | ||
musicians including myself, but also Tony Allen, the master drummer. | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
It is really interesting. Then we have the Earth, where the play is | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
taking place, they may have the sort of underworld, where the | :38:18. | :38:28. | |
:38:28. | :38:28. | ||
orchestra... Sulphuric Orchestra! We will hear some of your music at | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
the end of the show. La st the shadow chancellor Ed | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
Balls criticised George Osborne for taking the wrong fork in the road, | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
with his insistence on slashing the deficit at all costs. For their | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
part, they say Ed Balls has always been unable to face up to the | :38:46. | :38:53. | |
deficit. His call for a temporary cut in VAT has not been greeted | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
with widespread enthusiasm from columnists or newspapers. Welcome. | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
Can I start by going back to this whole question about whether you in | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
particular, Labour in general, have been ready enough to apologise for | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
and explain the period of overspending in power. Last time we | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
talked you said there had not been a structural deficit. The OECD, the | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
IMF, all of these international bodies say there was. We have had | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
this conversation many times. seems central. There was a global | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
financial crisis because of a failure of banking regulation and I | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
have apologised for that, but the Lehmann Brothers in New York didn't | :39:38. | :39:48. | |
:39:48. | :39:49. | ||
go Bang cut because if Great Britain. We had lower financial | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
deficit than some other countries and we had come back into | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
structural surplus, so we had achieved that. Tony Blair, Alastair | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
Darling, many other commentators said actually, do you know what, in | :40:03. | :40:10. | |
the late 90s we were spending too much. Sorry, in 2007. Civil | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
servants said we were spending too much. We were not getting complete | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
value for money and we had to start bringing the spending down. It | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
seemed like you at about the only person saying no. I think it is | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
complete nonsense. The 2007 spending review slowed down the | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
pace of spending, and at that time David Cameron said this is a tough | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
spending round and George Osborne said we will match those plans. It | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
was never part of the debate about whether our spending was too high | :40:42. | :40:49. | |
because we have low borrowing and high national debt. There is two | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
different things said to me - there are some people who tend to be | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
conservative commentators, who say you have got to admit you have | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
spent too much or you will be never trusted again. Others say you have | :41:00. | :41:07. | |
got to defend your record more. Tony Blair is hardly a conservative | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
commentator, he says that. Mervyn King says that, Alastair Darling. | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
At no point did Tony Blair say we should reduce the deficit by | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
cutting spending. The fact is, I could defend the past or attack the | :41:24. | :41:31. | |
past, but the public care about what is happening now. That is | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
really... I have been clear - George Osborne says he wants the | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
fastest deficit reduction of any country in the world. I want to get | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
the deficit down, but not this fast. The public will see who is right | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
and he was wrong. I am happy to be tested on that, and our credibility | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
will come down in the end to who was right. I want come on to that, | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
but before we do, with hindsight, knowing what you know now, would | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
you have spent all that money in government that you did spend? | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
You would never spend every pound right in government, of course. | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
Some NHS reform was not great, we made mistakes, but we also made the | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
case for the National Insurance rise, we had more police officers, | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
more teachers. It was issued achievement and our society is | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
stronger and more cohesive as a result. But there was a global | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
banking crisis for which we all paid a price. In that period up to | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
2007, George Osborne, David Cameron and you never said couldn't you | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
spend less and reduced the deficit? That is because it wasn't the issue | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
at the time and in retrospect it wasn't the cause of the crisis. | :42:48. | :42:58. | |
Love Life forward and understand it backwards. I could say to you that | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
I will agree with you every time I come on your programme, but | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
actually it is better to be truthful. For a moment there I was | :43:06. | :43:14. | |
optimistic. Let's move on to the VAT cut. This was a �12 billion | :43:14. | :43:22. | |
boost, unfunded, which would be 51 billion over the course of a | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
government so you would be adding to the deficit at a time when many | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
agencies are already saying the government at the moment is not | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
getting the actual deficit down fast enough. The reason why the | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
deficit is going to be �46 billion higher than George Osborne wanted | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
is because the economy has flat lined, consumer confidence has | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
fallen sharply, we have fewer people paying tax than we should | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
have, more people out of work. The economy is weaker. You think | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
throwing more VAT spending at that will change things? I thought the | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
VAT rise in January was a catastrophic decision for the | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
economy and it pushed inflation up as well. It makes it harder for the | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
Bank of England on interest rates as well. George Osborne wants to | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
get rid of this deficit entirely in the parliament, we say half it. I | :44:16. | :44:22. | |
am not expecting him to go all the way to us, to adopt are steadier | :44:22. | :44:29. | |
plans, but one thing he could do, meet us halfway, is reverse the VAT | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
rise now and use the spending in the economy. I say he could do that | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
temporarily. How long? That depends how long it takes to restore growth. | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
The Conservative Party are saying it will cost 50 billion and take | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
four years, that suggests they are expecting four years of slow growth. | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
That is an admission by them of the failure of this policy and we have | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
got to break out of it. George Osborne has got to learn the lesson | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
of Chancellors in the past. He has always said that there will be a | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
reduction in public sector jobs, but that will be, he hopes, picked | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
up by a growth in private sector jobs. The number of private sector | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
jobs is increasing at the moment. Unemployment figures are not that | :45:16. | :45:26. | |
bad. It is not a catastrophe by any The last three figures were | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
manufacturing output falling, better news on unemployment and | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
then retail sales falling. If you look at George Osborne's claim, he | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
attacked the BBC for not giving more publicity to this, if you look | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
at the increase in jobs in the last year, 70% of them would be for his | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
spending review. Only 30% worse since. So, there has been a big | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
slowdown in job creation. The claimant count has been rising, | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
month-on-month. We know that unemployment is a lagging indicator. | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
It doesn't tell the future, that tends to beat confidence in sales. | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
Any Chancellor looking at this position and feeling that the data | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
is vindicating him, to be honest, they need their head examining. We | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
had a debate in parliament on Wednesday that we have called. I | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
hope he will come on the year anniversary of his budget and | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
explained why his budget forecast has not come right. We'll see if | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
he's got answers. So far, I see a lot of bluster but not answers. | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
have strongly criticised the Government's tactics in the way | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
they are handling the pension issue when it comes to the public sector | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
unions. They have thrown down ultimatums and accused -- you have | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
accuse them of trying to draw the unions into a trap. You haven't | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
told us what you think about the proposals themselves, that public | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
sector workers should work a bit longer and make more of a payment | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
into the pensions to put them on roughly the same level as people | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
and the private sector. Look, it's not just the bluster and the | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
confrontational approach. It is actually the handling of the | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
substance where I think there was a problem. I don't think anybody | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
doubts that there has to be pension reform and the public sector. We | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
agreed with that before the election. Lord Hutton has set out | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
ideas in his report as well. I think the unions want to have a | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
proper debate about this. That's why it is frustrating to see the | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
Treasury breaking out of negotiations and see me to say they | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
have made decisions. Let's get to the substance, if you on a man or | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
woman in their early 50s, who has worked in public services for 20 or | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
30 years, the idea that you suddenly find out that you may have | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
to wait years longer to get the pensions you believe you are | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
entitled to, I think those people would say that is really not fair. | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
A lot of people in the private sector have had to put up with that. | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
A of course, you have to have changes for new workers. The deputy | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
director of the CBI was asked about this in the studio last Wednesday. | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
He said, well, I had a final salary pension. But new entrants have | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
moved on to a funded scheme. That's happening in the public sector as | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
well. What is worrying about the proposals is changing the rules for | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
people in their 50s. That seems to not be fair. The anger in the | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
country is not coming from trade union leaders, it actually coming | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
from dinner ladies, teachers, civil service workers in their 50s who | :48:10. | :48:16. | |
feel that they are having the road taken from under them. The thrust | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
of John Hutton's proposals, you think they are wrong? I didn't say | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
that a tour. If the proposals are right, the Government has to | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
grapple with the issue and do something about it? -- I didn't say | :48:28. | :48:38. | |
:48:38. | :48:38. | ||
It's not about reducing the deficit next year, it's over 50 or 60 years. | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
So you would say do the same thing, but go slower? That's the right way | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
to tackle pension reform. You are playing with people's lives. If you | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
were told by the BBC that your pension you were expecting had been | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
rewritten, you would go and get your lawyer. People have the right | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
to be treated fairly and properly. The idea you have women in their | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
50s being told on the state pension, or public service workers on their | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
pensions, we are changing the rules just like that, in such a rapid | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
way... It's not fair. Do you think they should strike later this | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
month? I'm not going to condemn strikes that hadn't yet happened. | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
You could offer them advice. I've said they have been wrong in the | :49:21. | :49:30. | |
past, I did so over the nut strike. We need to get back around the | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
table and discuss this. I don't think it's a political idea from | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
the unions, their members are feeling very upset. George Osborne | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
is desperate to have that confrontation. The trade unions | :49:42. | :49:48. | |
must not walk into the trap of giving George Osborne the | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
confrontation he wants. We should negotiate and that is the best way | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
forward. If that is the case, the 700,000 people that are likely to a | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
walkout in 10 days' time, they should not walk out because they | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
are walking into the trap that you have described? This is not pre- | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
ordained. It's entirely in the Government's hands. It also in the | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
hands of unions and members? have seen in recent weeks and | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
months a government that goes very political, Russia's ahead, finds it | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
has the detail wrong and it has to pull back. We saw that on the NHS, | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
on spending cuts and the deficit. The same has happened on pensions. | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
The Government can say tomorrow, look, we are going to pull away | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
quickly and have proper discussions right now, carried a song. If that | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
happens, there is no need for these strikes. The British public doesn't | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
want to go back to a decade where we have strikes and confrontation. | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
George Osborne can't remember the miners' strike, we do. Greece, | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
their economy is really on the edge now. His George Osborne right, do | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
you think, to at least be involved in talks about putting in more | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
British money for another bail out? I know we are not in the euro, but | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
if Greece goes under in a bad way, it will affect our chances of | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
recovery. I think George Osborne is getting that wrong, but not on that | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
particular point. We are a member of the IMF, IMF money will be part | :51:06. | :51:14. | |
of it. The real question is, is he arguing for a sensible way forward | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
on this issue? My fear is that what is happening is that the European | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
Union is saying to Greece have more austerity, have more cuts, we will | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
give you some temporary finance. What is the alternative? The lesson | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
of history, you see this in Latin America as well, if economies are | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
not growing and creating jobs then the debt goes up, the deficit gets | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
worse, the catastrophe at the end is bigger. I think we are heading | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
for really dangerous times. The European Union has to realise that | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
if it carries on in this way, temporary package and temporary | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
package, in the end it will be more destabilising. I fear that our | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
Chancellor is not standing up for a better and more sensible way | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
forward and we will rue the day. you think we are going to lose | :51:56. | :52:02. | |
members of the euro bloc? I think the critical commitment in those | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
countries for staying in is very strong. I think the problem is that | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
Germany never wanted that to happen on any terms. It's hard to see how | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
they would stay in without substantial restructuring which | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
would cost a lot of money for the rest of the Union. I think it's | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
very difficult that the longer we wait the worse it gets. The fact is, | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
over the last year, in other countries they put up VAT, they cut | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
spending. And what has happened? Debt has gone up, croak has gone | :52:26. | :52:34. | |
down, the crisis has got worse. -- growth has gone down. Austerity on | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
its own never solve these problems. I think there is a blinkered view, | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
that they wait until the next meeting and hope it goes away. | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
the central economic argument, where you have been locking horns | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
with the coalition so aggressively on both sides, public opinion | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
doesn't seem to be with you at the moment. Quite small majorities of | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
people, minorities of people, saying they agree with the Labour | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
approach. Why did you think that is? It's not surprising if after | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
three years, and we are partly responsible for this, all they have | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
heard from the Conservatives, the newspapers and the BBC is that it | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
is all Labour's Mez, caused by spending, the only way to get the | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
deficit down his rapid cuts right now. What will actually make the | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
difference is what actually happens. I'm happy to be judged on that. I | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
think Ed Miliband has rightly said that he wants to make the argument | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
about the future, and optimistic future. But it's hard to give | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
optimism when the economy is flat lining. It will depend on what | :53:34. | :53:41. | |
George Osborne does and I think we can win this document. -- argument. | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
NATO says it is looking into claims by Libyan officials that at least | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
five civilians were killed when an air strike destroyed a residential | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
building in Tripoli. Journalists, including the BBC's Middle East | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
editor Jeremy Bowen, were taken to the scene by government officials | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
and saw people digging through the rubble with their bare hands. They | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
also take into a hospital where a number of casualties were being | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
treated. The shadow chancellor Ed Balls has | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
warned the public sector unions that they should not walk into what | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
he called the Government's trap by going on strike over changes to | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
pensions. He said there was no need for strikes providing the | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
Government was prepared to negotiate in good faith over | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
pension reform. That's all from me for now. The | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
next news on BBC One is at midday. We will get back to Andrew in a | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
moment. First, he has a look at what is coming up after the show. | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
Join us live from Glasgow for the last edition of this series, with | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
Ken Clarke's long awaited sentencing proposals out next week. | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
We will be asking if we are too soft on criminals. Peter Hitchens | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
wants to bring back the short, sharp shock. With an aid convoy | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
heading to Gaza, we asked if it is time to free Palestine. | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
Ed Balls is still here. It is Father's Day. We should say | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
something about that. What do you make of the call for being much | :55:05. | :55:15. | |
:55:15. | :55:16. | ||
tougher on absent fathers? I... Personally, I feel a father should | :55:16. | :55:22. | |
be with his children. So it's a fair thing for a politician to say? | :55:22. | :55:30. | |
It's a fair thing for a father to say. After yesterday, my youngest | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
got in trouble in class with throwing water about the place with | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
a letter from the school. I upgraded her with this yesterday, | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
as a result, I am not going to get a card. She thinks I am lousy. -- | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
berated her. I left home at 5.30 to be on the programme, our kids | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
thought that was outrageous behaviour on Father's Day. I also | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
think it's outrageous Ford David Cameron. He said something that is | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
correct, fathers should take responsibility seriously. But he is | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
charging others, when a father leaves, to going to the CSA. He's | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
going to make it harder and the marriage tax cut would disadvantage | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
the bomb left behind and give the tax break to the father that went | :56:11. | :56:19. | |
off. His policies are flawed. knew you would get tax in there | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
somewhere, a question on Father's Day... You've got to get behind the | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
headlines, they are making it much worse. Also, a friend of mine that | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
is a psychoanalyst says that in any election you are always playing he | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
was the daddy? Who is the most father like figure. The father of | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
the country? Who is going to be the father of the country. Or the | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
mother of the country. The father of the nation. I think Ed Miliband | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
would be a great father to the nation, don't you? We are out of | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
time. Drawing me again next Sunday, when the one week of Wimbledon | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
having gone I will be talking to one of the greatest tennis | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
champions ever, Martina Navratilova. Until then, we leave you with Damon | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
Albarn, performing his new competition he has written for the | :57:09. | :57:19. | |
:57:19. | :57:38. | ||
# Pour the Apple quaffed from the # On the yellow dome, to great | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
authority. # Singing Hallelujah, Hallelujah. | :57:45. | :57:54. | |
:57:55. | :57:55. | ||
# In the kingdom of the broken heart. | :57:55. | :58:05. | |
:58:05. | :58:08. | ||
# A blackbird sings. # The moon is stark. | :58:08. | :58:18. | |
:58:18. | :58:30. | ||
# Burned the Apple cart, burn them until the Great Fire begins. | :58:30. | :58:40. | |
:58:40. | :58:45. | ||
# There, beneath the stones, reach # From great austerity, and turning | :58:45. | :58:51. | |
lovers. # Our disdain. | :58:51. | :58:58. |