19/06/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


19/06/2011

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Good morning, welcome. Before we get going properly today, I'd like

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just to pause and ask you to listen That is the sound of the greatest

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sax player in the history of rock music, in my view anyway! His name

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was Clarence Clemons, he was a big man and he died last night after a

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lifetime of producing some of the most glorious noises any human

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being has made. Joining me today for our review of the Sunday

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newspapers, the broadcaster and former Tory Cabinet Minister

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Michael Portillo, the Labour MP Yasmin Qureshi, and the columnist

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David Aaronovitch. No riots here just now but some pretty aggressive

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warnings of waves of strikes later this month, a confrontation as

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significant as the general strike of 1926. Well, we'll see. The

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Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls, who joins us today, warns unions

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they're being lured into a trap. He wants a VAT tax cut but he's been

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strongly attacked as a deficit denier in an increasingly bitter

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row over economic strategy. But what of the public sector unions

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themselves, whose members are being asked to pay more towards pensions

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and work longer? I'll be joined by Mark Serwotka, the head of the PCS

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union, which is at the centre of all this. And as the House of Lords

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debates its future composition, I'll be joined by its leader, Lord

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Strathclyde. He admits that the reform deadline may be missed and

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that delivering what Nick Clegg wants will be very difficult. The

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Liberal Democrats won't like that. And one of the most creative and

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unpredictable names in British music will be here. Damon Albarn,

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former frontman of Blur, creator of Gorillaz and a Chinese-themed opera,

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has composed what he calls a new English opera based on the life of

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an Elizabethan legend, the magician Poetry and politics. First, the

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news with Naga Munchetty. Good morning. Libyan officials

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claim several people were killed when a NATO airstrike destroyed a

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house in Tripoli. Nato has confirmed it was operating there,

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and says it's looking into the claims. Journalists were taken to a

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residential area where people were digging through the rubble with

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their bare hands. Jeremy Bowen reports. Local people said the

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explosion happened at just after 1am. This is a residential area

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about one mile from a military airfield which has often been

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targeted by NATO. Journalists were able to work freely at the site, we

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were taken there by the Libyan authorities. The body of a woman

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was pulled out of the wreckage. The building which was destroyed looked

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like a family home. A neighbour, who was also killed, worked for the

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government. Fire and rescue workers searched for survivors or more

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bodies under the rubble. It looked like the result of an air strike or

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missile attack. NATO's mandate is to protect civilians, so if this is

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what it seems more questions will be raised about what it is

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achieving. There might be more pressure for a diplomatic solution.

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This is no kind of pro-Gaddafi stronghold. There have been no pro

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regime demonstrations since we arrived, since this has happened,

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and the number of people have spoken to me about their opposition

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to the Colonel and their desire to see him overthrown. Afterwards we

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were taken to Tripoli central hospital. A husband, wife and baby

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were all dead in the mortuary. Another dead baby was brought in.

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Doctors were working on a man with a bad wound in his arm. Libyan

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officials said there were other casualties. The government

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spokesman said the attack had planted seeds of hatred.

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Here, the Government has been warned that the current approach to

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treating drug addicts isn't working. The Centre for Policy Studies says

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more than �3 billion a year is wasted on treatment programmes in

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England, involving drug substitutes such as methadone. The think tank

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believes the money would be better spent on drug rehab centres. The

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policy of prescribing the heroin substitute methadone has been an

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expensive failure, according to today's report. It says prescribing

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that treatment impedes and delays adits' recovery. It says fewer than

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4% of people finish treatment free from dependency and it is time for

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the coalition to focus on rehabilitation. The aspiration for

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people on the current system is extremely low and the scale of

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people in the rehab centres, who can help people change themselves

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personally and get out of this destructive pattern, is very

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underrated and on the used at the moment. The report estimates that

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in England prescribing methadone cost �730 million a year. �1.7

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billion in benefit is paid to drug users, and it cost �1.2 billion a

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year to look after their children. The coalition's new plans argues

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the report will not work. Success or failure will be considered by

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whether drug-addict barring treatment. The report says

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abstinence based rehab is the long- term solution and a simple measure

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of success would be six months' free from drink and drug use.

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The shadow chancellor Ed Balls has accused the government of seeking

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confrontation with the unions over pension reform, but he has warned

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unions not to fall into what he called the Government's trap by

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going on strike. He says ministers are wrong to announce changes to

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pensions for nurses, teachers and other public sector workers, before

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talks with their unions have finished.

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European finance ministers will meet in Luxembourg today to discuss

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new measures to help the Greek government deal with its economic

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crisis. There are fears that, if Greece defaults, the stability of

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other countries in the eurozone will come under threat. The

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Chancellor George Osborne joins the meeting tomorrow morning.

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The saxophonist Clarence Clemons, whose solos featured on many of

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Bruce Springsteen's biggest hits, has died aged 69. Clemons was known

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as The Big Man because of his height and was an original member

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of the E Street Band. He had been admitted to hospital after

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suffering a stroke at his home in I will be back just before 10

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o'clock with the headlines. Now back to Andrew.

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Work longer and pay more - that was the message from the Treasury to

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public sector workers last week. I am joined now by mark, head of the

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PCS civil service union. -- Mark Serwotka. You have been warning of

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strikes later this month, and it has been compared to the General

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Strike in 1926, which seems wildly over-the-top. That is not language

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I have been using but there will be three-quarters of a million of

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workers on strike in 10 days' time. I think if the government is not

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prepared to change course in the negotiations, after that strike we

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will see unions representing millions more to ballot their

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members for later strikes. I think that could be in the millions.

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that would be the biggest such action since 1926? Historically,

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that would be the case. Four unions have already balloted and will be

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striking in 10 days' time. There is an economic case against the

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strikes, which is that it is unfair now for public sector workers to

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get more generous pension contributions than private sector

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workers. In the old days they were paid less, now on average they are

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paid more than private sector workers and they have these

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generous pensions. Why should taxpayers have to subsidise your

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members in that way? I think it is unfair that the people who did not

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cause any of the economic problems are being asked to pay the biggest

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price. In my union we are losing 100,000 jobs, we have had pay

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freezes, and now we are being that our pensions, which we negotiated

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only five years ago with the Labour government, which are costing the

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taxpayer less over the next 40 years as a proportion of GDP, they

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should not lose sacrificed because it is unfair. There is a knock on

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formed a deficit coming up to pay for these pensions. In the old days

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when people stopped working at 60, they often didn't live much longer.

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Working until 66 is an inevitable fact of life, isn't it? My father

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told me when I was young that as technology developed, and the world

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got richer, people should share in those benefits. My father worked

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for so long that after he retired he died within a year. Mind, too.

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If you have contractual promises, we shouldn't fall for that is what

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this is about. This is a crude effort to make public sector

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workers pay for deficit reduction. Is there room for negotiation on

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the subject of the average salary? And that you don't get your pension

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on the basis of your final salary, but the average salary you learn

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during your life. In the civil service we agreed that five years

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ago. We have career averaging. that is not a big issue? For us it

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is not, but the issue is that what the government are doing it is

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doubling the accrual rates which half the value of pensions.

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political case, which Ed Balls has described, is that you are walking

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straight into a government trap, that you are bound to be defeated

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eventually and this is exactly what the coalition government wants.

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They want to take on people like you, rather than defend their

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economic strategy. They may want to do that, they have no mandate, but

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if Ed Balls is me representing people, many of whom around �15,000

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a year, they work hard, they don't look forward to a big pension, if

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all that is being taken away and you work longer, what are we

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supposed to do? Should we sit back and do nothing? Is there any way

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that the strikes can be called off? What would the government have to

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do to achieve that? The government would have to say they are prepared

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to seriously negotiate, that they will not tell us in advance that

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everything will be worse, that they will look in a different direction.

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The chances of that are fewer than one, on a scale of 1-10. I think

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the demonstration on the 30th will show them the anger that exists,

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and tell Francis Maude and the others, who are frankly very well-

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off personally, they can't be right to make the poorest and most

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vulnerable and hard working pay a high price to solve the crisis they

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did nothing to create. Thank you. Front pages, lots of

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different stories today. The Sunday Telegraph leaves with David Cameron

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saying that absent fathers are as bad as drink-drivers. The Sunday

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Times also has David Cameron on the front page - David Cameron to give

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power to the people. This is the reform bill that has been much

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delayed, meant to hand power to people to pay for their own care.

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The Observer has a story about war crimes files as well. Scotland on

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Sunday says MPs are going to carpet the Prime Minister over the

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strategy of the Afghan war. The Express has a story - test drugs on

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Peps, says EU. Thousands of pets in Britain could be used in lab tests.

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To review those stories with me, Michael Portillo, Yasmin Qureshi,

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and David Aaronovitch. I was looking at a story with a great

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picture. It is about the strikes which are going to happen on 30th

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June. As you know, tomorrow there is a debate in Parliament on the

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pension bill. Do you agree there is a danger of the unions walking into

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a trap? I do agree with that because one thing you have noticed

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with the government is that the messages, the things they say, they

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seemed very unsympathetic to public services. There is a constant

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message that civil services are being overpaid and lazy, and you

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get that sort of message coming out and these radical reforms being

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made, I think it is sending the This bit of the crisis was kicked

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off by the Chief Secretary of the Treasury's speech last week, when

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he seemed to announce what the endgame was going to be. That

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people were going to have to work until the age of 66 and were going

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to have to pay 3.2% more for their pensions. That seemed rather

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strange, because there were negotiations going on with the

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trade unions, by some accounts quite fruitful ones. In the

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Observer it says that the Treasury is retreating on the inflammatory

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pension plan. They are saying, no, no, these were just ideas, it was a

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series of suggestions. It didn't sound like that at the time. On

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this issue of the union's walking into a trap, I rather feel there

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has been a bit of a cock-up by the Government. I'm not sure they

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really intended to go out in this manner. It is properly described as

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inflammatory, I think. Danny Alexander, perhaps, he's been told

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he has to sound tough, he's relatively new in the top rank.

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Maybe he was a little bit too tough? A difficult week for the

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Government. They were accused of trying to do a U-turn, here they

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are showing that they are not doing a U-turn on something. This comes

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down to real cuts in real institutions. You've got a story

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about hospitals? Interestingly, during the time of the last Labour

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government, every time they tried to do some rationalisation in the

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hospital sacked her -- sector, they couldn't get a pass their own

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ministers. Now we have something of a consensus growing up, the head of

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the nurses' union, the King's Fund, the think-tank, a lot of talk about

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how the number of these inefficient district hospitals should close.

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This is a story from the observe the, 20 hospitals must shut. It's

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the kind of horrible secret that everybody has known for a long time.

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Some of these places are desperately inefficient places to

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find yourself in. They actually don't have the expertise. But you

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can't get anybody to be grey, politically, that they get closed.

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You get a little campaign group, they frighten the MPs, they look at

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the wire forest, where a hospital consultant was elected in 2001,

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then they think they should fall behind it. Michael, one of these

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hospitals is close to where you were MP? The proposals were going

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on when I was an MP 17 or 18 years ago. No politician has had the

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willpower to go and closer to. Even the head of the Royal College of

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Nurses last week was saying that these hospitals need to be closed.

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There biggest political story has been Greece, putting the entire

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eurozone into trouble. Yes, it is everywhere. I picked a story from

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the Sunday Times, why a Greek tragedy matters to you, a picture

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of a policeman kicking a young woman demonstrator in Athens. What

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struck me in the Sunday Times was that they tried to review the

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possibilities of the future. It says, the view that Greece should

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exit the euro is spreading amongst politicians and financial experts.

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Fears that such a move would undermine the euro is exaggerated.

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This is opening the door to Greece even the euro. I agree with this,

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by the way. This goes back to when you were in government, the great

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argument about the inner core and the outer core? Well, we have

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different speedy Europe's, because some people are in the euro and

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some people are not. The argument we were making years ago was about

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sovereignty. When you hear that a European committee should be set up

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to going to Greece and sell its nationalised assets to raise money

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to pay off the debt, you do see that they awry implications for

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sovereignty. Do you think the euro would survive? Would it be a good

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thing but some of the peripheral economies in such trouble, Greece,

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perhaps Portugal, to leave the euro? Very possibly. It certainly

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something the countries could think about. At the moment, they decided

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they are going to save the you know -- Euro at any cost. We are saying

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that the cost is enormous in terms of social unrest, social provision,

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loss of income. It may go on for a very long time. Wider Greek tragedy

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matters to us is that apart from the fact that we get drawn into the

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short-term cost, if there is a crisis in Europe then our economy

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does not grow as it should command in the coalition's plans for paying

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off the deficit are not going to work out. By all means, why do they

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talk about an orderly exit from the euro of those countries that are

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clearly not up to what? Next story? An article in the Observer, parents

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of disabled children lose �1,400 a year. Basically, what this is, at

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the moment you get �54 a week through tax credits for children

:19:59.:20:03.

who are disabled. Under new proposals you will only get �27 a

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week. That is going to hit about 100,000 families. It is obviously

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going to cause a lot of problems. So, I think the Government should

:20:13.:20:21.

be rethinking this one. American politics? It's actually the case in

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all of the major quality papers that a lot of the biggest news of

:20:25.:20:32.

the day is foreign news. They are all white the spectre of the right-

:20:32.:20:36.

wing American woman, not Sarah Palin, but Michelle back then. As

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you can see, she is photogenic, she is very popular amongst a lot of

:20:44.:20:50.

people in America. And, as far as I can say, stark staring bonkers.

:20:50.:20:54.

This is an easy thing for a left liberal in Britain to say about an

:20:54.:20:59.

American politician. But she has a tendency to throw the term Satan

:20:59.:21:03.

into discussions about domestic politics. That doesn't go down well

:21:03.:21:09.

here. According to some of the people I most respect of the

:21:09.:21:12.

Republican commentary field in America, it will not go down well

:21:12.:21:15.

with the Americans either. At the moment, she is number two in the

:21:15.:21:22.

race. Given that the number one is a very boring person,... Very

:21:22.:21:27.

interesting. A lot of her pitch, the Tea Party, it is very strong

:21:27.:21:30.

old fashioned moral values, which we get, in our diluted form, from

:21:30.:21:38.

the Prime Minister? Yes, the Sunday Telegraph, Cameron saying that

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absent dads are as bad as drink- drivers. He says that fathers that

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choose to go a wall, walk out on their responsibilities, there must

:21:48.:21:58.

be stigmatised. -- AWOL. I think that is a terrible whirl it, --

:21:58.:22:03.

terrible word, stigma. In recent decades, because it has largely

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been abandoned. He's right to say it has been used in the case of

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drink-driving. We also stigmatise against bigotry. You cannot be

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homophobic or racist because they have been stigmatised. Here is the

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Government, earth seeking as a means of policy, to stigmatise a

:22:21.:22:31.
:22:31.:22:32.

group of people. Good thing or bad thing? It is both. OK! I want to

:22:32.:22:42.
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pick up on the Queen story. We have the Queen on her horse? This is

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regarding the high-speed trains. The Queen is very concerned that if

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the train goes through the plant route then her horses will be

:22:50.:22:55.

affected. This is London to Birmingham, all sorts of people are

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desperately trying to sell their houses and getting the Government

:22:58.:23:05.

to buy their houses. Possibly the best picture in today's papers,

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David? This is the Sunday Telegraph. This is an extinct MI5 agent, he

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used to keep tabs on the Archbishop of Canterbury. When he was younger,

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the Archbishop of Canterbury was a subversive leftist. Here he is, but

:23:24.:23:27.

the Socialist Workers' banner upside-down. We were trying to work

:23:27.:23:34.

out what it said. He says in his manifesto that he was a subversive,

:23:34.:23:44.
:23:44.:23:53.

not a shallow activist. I was a communist, D were a Trott, wasn't

:23:53.:23:58.

Ed Balls in the Conservative Association? Let's finish with

:23:58.:24:04.

Ascot, that is all over the papers again. It's not what it was?

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horses have gone to do dogs, that's the thing. In the Independent, it

:24:09.:24:18.

says it was more the Royal Family, images of eight men brawling

:24:18.:24:25.

amongst a sea of tattoos and orange cleavage. Helen Wood, Wayne

:24:25.:24:31.

Rooney's one-time prostitute lover, was paraded by it -- like a duchess.

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Her one offence was that she didn't turn up wearing a hat. That won't

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With sadly run out of time for the papers. I was running and cycling

:24:42.:24:49.

recently, it felt like being in a car wash. Doused, drenched, hot.

:24:50.:24:57.

If you couldn't guess, it's not looking great for Wimbledon. Things

:24:57.:25:00.

will improve through the week. Today's weather is definitely an

:25:00.:25:06.

improvement on yesterday. This was the satellite picture. The cloud is

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the legacy of yesterday's weather front. To the north and south,

:25:09.:25:13.

something a bit brighter developing to the rest of the day. Scattered

:25:13.:25:16.

showers drifting eastwards through England and Wales. Where the

:25:16.:25:19.

weather front sits, patchy rain at the moment. It turns more showery

:25:19.:25:23.

this afternoon. Heavy showers are likely, maybe even the odd rumble

:25:23.:25:28.

of thunder. For the north-east of Scotland, a much better day today

:25:28.:25:32.

than yesterday. More sunshine around, the high up to 18 degrees.

:25:32.:25:35.

For Northern Ireland, similar to the last few days. Sunny spells and

:25:35.:25:40.

scattered showers. Turning dry and bright across Wales, with more

:25:40.:25:44.

sunshine, highs of 16 degrees in Cardiff. In the south-west of

:25:44.:25:48.

England, turning a little cloudy this afternoon with rain moving as

:25:48.:25:53.

we head through the evening. Through southern areas of England,

:25:53.:25:56.

more two showers. Not as heavy or blustery as yesterday. With more

:25:57.:26:01.

sunshine, a little warmer. On Monday, England, Wales and Northern

:26:01.:26:06.

Ireland, cloudy with rain. Dry and brighter in Scotland. My advice,

:26:06.:26:13.

make the most of today's sunshine, This week the House of Lords is

:26:13.:26:15.

going to debate proposals for one of the most monumental changes in

:26:15.:26:19.

its history. The Lords would start to disappear to be replaced by a

:26:19.:26:25.

mostly elected second chamber if reform goes ahead. The Government

:26:25.:26:28.

predicts that the first members, senators, they will be called, will

:26:28.:26:32.

take their seats in four years time. But there is a lot of resistance

:26:32.:26:36.

and scepticism. Lord Strathclyde, the leader of the Lords in charge

:26:36.:26:41.

of this, joins me. One of your colleagues, Bernard Jenkins, has

:26:41.:26:45.

asked, rhetorically, whether this is not just another tatty roadshow

:26:45.:26:49.

brought you by the same people who thought that the British people

:26:49.:26:53.

were interested in the alternative vote. He has a point? I don't think

:26:53.:26:58.

he does. We'd been talking about house of Lords reform for over 100

:26:58.:27:02.

years. In 1911, Parliament passed the Parliament Act and said the

:27:02.:27:08.

second chamber should be elected. Does that say it all? We've taken a

:27:08.:27:11.

long time to get here. For the first time, a government has

:27:11.:27:15.

published a Bill in draft, with a white paper, laying out what an

:27:15.:27:18.

elected second chamber would look like. That's important because I

:27:18.:27:23.

think people need to rebuild their trust in politicians. I believe

:27:23.:27:26.

that in the 21st century if you are going to wield political power then

:27:26.:27:30.

you should do because people have elected you into Parliament, rather

:27:30.:27:36.

than simply being appointed or inherited. Under the Government's

:27:36.:27:40.

proposals, a 5th of those people would not be elected. You still

:27:40.:27:44.

have the possibility of the elected will both the Commons and the Lords,

:27:44.:27:50.

the Senate, whatever the second chamber is, being overridden by a

:27:50.:27:55.

unelected people. That would cause outcry? We have put forward two

:27:55.:28:00.

proposals. One is a 100% elected house, which is a model that many

:28:00.:28:05.

people will find it easy to understand. All we have 80%, with

:28:05.:28:09.

20% appointed. There is a reason to do that, the House of Lords is

:28:09.:28:13.

almost entirely appointed. There is an argument that says we should

:28:14.:28:16.

preserve a small part of Parliament for those kinds of people that

:28:16.:28:21.

would never stand for election, senior civil servants, ambassadors,

:28:21.:28:26.

top soldiers, policemen. Who you might want to get in there for

:28:26.:28:29.

their expertise and knowledge. That's not to say that if you are

:28:29.:28:35.

elected to, you are devoid of expertise and knowledge. It is

:28:35.:28:39.

right that this would effectively be a Senate? Effectively. It is a

:28:39.:28:44.

good word. There are many second chambers around the world called

:28:44.:28:48.

the Zenit. But the Government has said it should be called that. We

:28:48.:28:51.

have said they should be a consultation on what to call it. No

:28:51.:28:55.

doubt a number of people will come up with different ways of how to

:28:55.:29:00.

call a House of Lords when it is devoid of Lords. There is great

:29:01.:29:06.

opposition in your old party and other parties as well. A lot of the

:29:06.:29:08.

opponents are going to be sitting on the committee that will be

:29:09.:29:12.

looking at it? You are quite right. There is a lot of bad feeling about

:29:12.:29:17.

it in both houses of parliament and across all of the parties. At the

:29:17.:29:19.

last General Election all three main parties stood in their

:29:19.:29:24.

manifesto on a commitment to come forward with a wholly or entirely

:29:24.:29:28.

elected house. We are trying to build on that consensus, where

:29:28.:29:35.

there is a firm commitment from the Prime Minister and many others to

:29:35.:29:38.

try and deliver this in time for 2015. That is what we are going to

:29:38.:29:42.

try to do. You are going to try and do it, but you have no chance, I

:29:42.:29:46.

put it to you. Let me be blunt, the general suspicion is that it is not

:29:46.:29:49.

going to fly, it is not going to happen, it's too difficult to get

:29:49.:29:54.

through both houses. Do you have to make a good fist of it to appease

:29:54.:30:03.

the Liberal Democrats? Otherwise There are people in all parties

:30:03.:30:08.

talking about reform for many years. Talking is one thing. And this is

:30:08.:30:12.

the time for action. This is the first time in a generation that we

:30:12.:30:17.

can really move this forward. There is momentum, and if flicking get

:30:17.:30:21.

the opposition party - the Labour Party - to agree in both Commons

:30:21.:30:30.

and the House of Lords, I think we could achieve this goal. But you

:30:30.:30:35.

can't look me in the eye and say you will do it? There are divisions

:30:35.:30:39.

within the parties, rather than between the parties, but because we

:30:39.:30:42.

put such a clear case forward and we are only at the start of the

:30:42.:30:47.

debate, it won't be until another 12 months that we bring legislation

:30:47.:30:51.

forward, I think we can convince people this is the right thing to

:30:52.:30:58.

do. Given that we have got outraged public sector workers arguing about

:30:58.:31:02.

pensions, we have so many problems ahead, the forces in action in

:31:02.:31:06.

Libya and Afghanistan, is this really something that politicians

:31:06.:31:10.

should spend a lot of time thinking about? With tears and important

:31:10.:31:16.

issue. It has been rattling around the constitutional bottom drawer

:31:16.:31:19.

for many years. Just because it doesn't seem to be the most

:31:19.:31:27.

pressing issue, it doesn't mean it is not important. if we had a

:31:27.:31:31.

second chamber that was elected, it would be better for politics, it

:31:31.:31:35.

would hold the government to account. So you are genuine

:31:35.:31:40.

convert? Because you used to be against this. The about 20 years

:31:40.:31:46.

ago I wondered if there was any point to it, but I have studied it.

:31:46.:31:49.

I think the House of Lords would have more authority to hold the

:31:49.:31:53.

government to account, and when it had battles of will between the

:31:53.:31:58.

House of Commons I think it would strengthen its hand. All of these

:31:58.:32:03.

are good for parliamentary democracy. We do have to write in a

:32:03.:32:06.

new constitutional settlement to make sure that the House of Lords

:32:06.:32:10.

didn't override the House of Commons, if it was elected? It

:32:10.:32:15.

might think it had more of a right to speak for the people. It is a

:32:15.:32:20.

key issue, but over the last hundred years we have developed a

:32:20.:32:24.

constitutional understanding. We don't need to rewrite that

:32:24.:32:29.

constitutional settlement today or next year. Over time, as we develop

:32:29.:32:36.

to a fully elected House, yes I am sure that those boundaries between

:32:36.:32:39.

the two houses will be tested but that is not a bad thing. Many other

:32:39.:32:45.

countries do it. Chances of there being a senator sitting in the

:32:45.:32:52.

House of Lords by the time the next election? 20-one? I have sometimes

:32:52.:32:55.

speculated it is going to be very difficult, some have said

:32:55.:33:00.

impossible. I don't think so. This time there is a momentum, a

:33:00.:33:04.

political will, and we can win the argument and there will be senators

:33:05.:33:11.

being elected in 2015. Thank you. For 20 years, Damon Albarn has been

:33:11.:33:21.
:33:21.:33:25.

one of the most interesting figures As frontman for Blur, he caught the

:33:25.:33:30.

spirit of the 90s with his hyperactive stage act, clever

:33:30.:33:37.

lyrics and stadium filling music. He then went on to find this hugely

:33:37.:33:42.

successful virtual band, the Gorillaz. He has now produced a new

:33:42.:33:47.

English opera, a reflection on the life and times of John, Elizabethan

:33:47.:33:56.

astrologer, mathematician, and it is premiering next month. Welcome.

:33:57.:34:02.

John, one of the most of figures in Elizabethan history - what is the

:34:02.:34:12.
:34:12.:34:23.

appeal? -- odd figures. ambition was almost impossible to

:34:23.:34:28.

grasp in one thing. His ideas are so broad. He was quite close to

:34:28.:34:32.

being a scientist, certainly a mathematician, close to Elizabeth

:34:32.:34:39.

the first. He did what I imagine was an incredibly important thing

:34:39.:34:49.
:34:49.:34:49.

for the English. He translated the Euclid into English from Latin. In

:34:49.:34:55.

a way he gave the information that have been the sort of reserve of

:34:55.:35:02.

the Church and aristocrats. He was also the first person I have read

:35:02.:35:07.

to use the phrase British Empire. think he coined it. That is really

:35:07.:35:14.

interesting, and that is how I kind of got an emotional connection with

:35:14.:35:22.

him, by imagining what the British Empire would have been like if it

:35:22.:35:30.

had been informed by John's ideas and less well cinema. Who was the

:35:30.:35:38.

spy master. It seems to have always been interested in Englishness.

:35:38.:35:47.

has everything there. It has that connection with the more pagan

:35:47.:35:55.

aspects of Englishness. It doesn't... It alludes to the age of

:35:55.:36:00.

reason but isn't quite there, and some of the ideas that he was

:36:00.:36:07.

trying to express our sort of, in a way, very modern ideas. We are

:36:07.:36:13.

going to hear some music at the end of the show, which has an almost

:36:13.:36:20.

madrigal quality to it. It is a serial, a gentle piece. At first I

:36:20.:36:28.

started writing it purely as a composer, and I didn't imagine

:36:28.:36:37.

myself inside the story or sort of in this sort of modern look at it,

:36:37.:36:42.

but I just felt it was more about England than just John. He was this

:36:42.:36:49.

marvellous frame to sort of express things that I couldn't really do

:36:49.:36:54.

necessarily in Blur or... But I do find a connection to it, it is

:36:54.:36:59.

weird. Some of the songs could come from that world. I don't really

:36:59.:37:04.

know what world I am meant at the moment but it is an interesting one.

:37:04.:37:10.

Obviously Blur were at that peak of Britpop, and stadium bands and that

:37:10.:37:13.

bigger sound, and since then you seem to have been constantly

:37:13.:37:18.

looking for new textures and different kinds of complexities in

:37:18.:37:28.
:37:28.:37:29.

your music. I am thinking of monkey, the opera. Yes, I think I just find

:37:29.:37:32.

all music, there is something in everything. When people go to

:37:32.:37:37.

Manchester to watch this English opera, what is it going to look

:37:37.:37:43.

like? What will they see on stage? We have kind of split it into the

:37:43.:37:52.

three realms. We have the celestial realm, where there is a consort of

:37:52.:38:02.
:38:02.:38:07.

musicians including myself, but also Tony Allen, the master drummer.

:38:07.:38:12.

It is really interesting. Then we have the Earth, where the play is

:38:12.:38:18.

taking place, they may have the sort of underworld, where the

:38:18.:38:28.
:38:28.:38:28.

orchestra... Sulphuric Orchestra! We will hear some of your music at

:38:28.:38:32.

the end of the show. La st the shadow chancellor Ed

:38:32.:38:36.

Balls criticised George Osborne for taking the wrong fork in the road,

:38:36.:38:41.

with his insistence on slashing the deficit at all costs. For their

:38:41.:38:46.

part, they say Ed Balls has always been unable to face up to the

:38:46.:38:53.

deficit. His call for a temporary cut in VAT has not been greeted

:38:53.:39:00.

with widespread enthusiasm from columnists or newspapers. Welcome.

:39:00.:39:05.

Can I start by going back to this whole question about whether you in

:39:05.:39:10.

particular, Labour in general, have been ready enough to apologise for

:39:10.:39:14.

and explain the period of overspending in power. Last time we

:39:14.:39:20.

talked you said there had not been a structural deficit. The OECD, the

:39:20.:39:25.

IMF, all of these international bodies say there was. We have had

:39:25.:39:30.

this conversation many times. seems central. There was a global

:39:30.:39:34.

financial crisis because of a failure of banking regulation and I

:39:34.:39:38.

have apologised for that, but the Lehmann Brothers in New York didn't

:39:38.:39:48.
:39:48.:39:49.

go Bang cut because if Great Britain. We had lower financial

:39:49.:39:53.

deficit than some other countries and we had come back into

:39:53.:39:59.

structural surplus, so we had achieved that. Tony Blair, Alastair

:39:59.:40:03.

Darling, many other commentators said actually, do you know what, in

:40:03.:40:10.

the late 90s we were spending too much. Sorry, in 2007. Civil

:40:10.:40:15.

servants said we were spending too much. We were not getting complete

:40:15.:40:18.

value for money and we had to start bringing the spending down. It

:40:18.:40:24.

seemed like you at about the only person saying no. I think it is

:40:24.:40:29.

complete nonsense. The 2007 spending review slowed down the

:40:29.:40:34.

pace of spending, and at that time David Cameron said this is a tough

:40:34.:40:38.

spending round and George Osborne said we will match those plans. It

:40:38.:40:42.

was never part of the debate about whether our spending was too high

:40:42.:40:49.

because we have low borrowing and high national debt. There is two

:40:49.:40:52.

different things said to me - there are some people who tend to be

:40:53.:40:56.

conservative commentators, who say you have got to admit you have

:40:56.:41:00.

spent too much or you will be never trusted again. Others say you have

:41:00.:41:07.

got to defend your record more. Tony Blair is hardly a conservative

:41:07.:41:13.

commentator, he says that. Mervyn King says that, Alastair Darling.

:41:13.:41:18.

At no point did Tony Blair say we should reduce the deficit by

:41:18.:41:24.

cutting spending. The fact is, I could defend the past or attack the

:41:24.:41:31.

past, but the public care about what is happening now. That is

:41:31.:41:37.

really... I have been clear - George Osborne says he wants the

:41:37.:41:41.

fastest deficit reduction of any country in the world. I want to get

:41:41.:41:46.

the deficit down, but not this fast. The public will see who is right

:41:46.:41:51.

and he was wrong. I am happy to be tested on that, and our credibility

:41:51.:41:56.

will come down in the end to who was right. I want come on to that,

:41:56.:42:00.

but before we do, with hindsight, knowing what you know now, would

:42:00.:42:05.

you have spent all that money in government that you did spend?

:42:05.:42:10.

You would never spend every pound right in government, of course.

:42:10.:42:15.

Some NHS reform was not great, we made mistakes, but we also made the

:42:15.:42:20.

case for the National Insurance rise, we had more police officers,

:42:20.:42:24.

more teachers. It was issued achievement and our society is

:42:24.:42:30.

stronger and more cohesive as a result. But there was a global

:42:30.:42:35.

banking crisis for which we all paid a price. In that period up to

:42:35.:42:40.

2007, George Osborne, David Cameron and you never said couldn't you

:42:40.:42:44.

spend less and reduced the deficit? That is because it wasn't the issue

:42:44.:42:48.

at the time and in retrospect it wasn't the cause of the crisis.

:42:48.:42:58.

Love Life forward and understand it backwards. I could say to you that

:42:58.:43:02.

I will agree with you every time I come on your programme, but

:43:02.:43:06.

actually it is better to be truthful. For a moment there I was

:43:06.:43:14.

optimistic. Let's move on to the VAT cut. This was a �12 billion

:43:14.:43:22.

boost, unfunded, which would be 51 billion over the course of a

:43:22.:43:26.

government so you would be adding to the deficit at a time when many

:43:26.:43:30.

agencies are already saying the government at the moment is not

:43:30.:43:34.

getting the actual deficit down fast enough. The reason why the

:43:34.:43:39.

deficit is going to be �46 billion higher than George Osborne wanted

:43:39.:43:42.

is because the economy has flat lined, consumer confidence has

:43:42.:43:46.

fallen sharply, we have fewer people paying tax than we should

:43:46.:43:53.

have, more people out of work. The economy is weaker. You think

:43:53.:43:59.

throwing more VAT spending at that will change things? I thought the

:43:59.:44:02.

VAT rise in January was a catastrophic decision for the

:44:02.:44:07.

economy and it pushed inflation up as well. It makes it harder for the

:44:07.:44:10.

Bank of England on interest rates as well. George Osborne wants to

:44:10.:44:16.

get rid of this deficit entirely in the parliament, we say half it. I

:44:16.:44:22.

am not expecting him to go all the way to us, to adopt are steadier

:44:22.:44:29.

plans, but one thing he could do, meet us halfway, is reverse the VAT

:44:29.:44:35.

rise now and use the spending in the economy. I say he could do that

:44:35.:44:41.

temporarily. How long? That depends how long it takes to restore growth.

:44:41.:44:45.

The Conservative Party are saying it will cost 50 billion and take

:44:45.:44:50.

four years, that suggests they are expecting four years of slow growth.

:44:50.:44:54.

That is an admission by them of the failure of this policy and we have

:44:54.:44:59.

got to break out of it. George Osborne has got to learn the lesson

:44:59.:45:03.

of Chancellors in the past. He has always said that there will be a

:45:03.:45:07.

reduction in public sector jobs, but that will be, he hopes, picked

:45:07.:45:12.

up by a growth in private sector jobs. The number of private sector

:45:12.:45:16.

jobs is increasing at the moment. Unemployment figures are not that

:45:16.:45:26.

bad. It is not a catastrophe by any The last three figures were

:45:26.:45:29.

manufacturing output falling, better news on unemployment and

:45:29.:45:33.

then retail sales falling. If you look at George Osborne's claim, he

:45:33.:45:36.

attacked the BBC for not giving more publicity to this, if you look

:45:37.:45:41.

at the increase in jobs in the last year, 70% of them would be for his

:45:41.:45:46.

spending review. Only 30% worse since. So, there has been a big

:45:46.:45:49.

slowdown in job creation. The claimant count has been rising,

:45:49.:45:53.

month-on-month. We know that unemployment is a lagging indicator.

:45:53.:45:58.

It doesn't tell the future, that tends to beat confidence in sales.

:45:58.:46:02.

Any Chancellor looking at this position and feeling that the data

:46:02.:46:05.

is vindicating him, to be honest, they need their head examining. We

:46:05.:46:08.

had a debate in parliament on Wednesday that we have called. I

:46:08.:46:12.

hope he will come on the year anniversary of his budget and

:46:12.:46:18.

explained why his budget forecast has not come right. We'll see if

:46:18.:46:23.

he's got answers. So far, I see a lot of bluster but not answers.

:46:23.:46:26.

have strongly criticised the Government's tactics in the way

:46:26.:46:29.

they are handling the pension issue when it comes to the public sector

:46:29.:46:34.

unions. They have thrown down ultimatums and accused -- you have

:46:34.:46:37.

accuse them of trying to draw the unions into a trap. You haven't

:46:37.:46:40.

told us what you think about the proposals themselves, that public

:46:40.:46:43.

sector workers should work a bit longer and make more of a payment

:46:44.:46:47.

into the pensions to put them on roughly the same level as people

:46:47.:46:53.

and the private sector. Look, it's not just the bluster and the

:46:53.:46:55.

confrontational approach. It is actually the handling of the

:46:55.:46:58.

substance where I think there was a problem. I don't think anybody

:46:58.:47:02.

doubts that there has to be pension reform and the public sector. We

:47:02.:47:06.

agreed with that before the election. Lord Hutton has set out

:47:06.:47:09.

ideas in his report as well. I think the unions want to have a

:47:09.:47:13.

proper debate about this. That's why it is frustrating to see the

:47:13.:47:16.

Treasury breaking out of negotiations and see me to say they

:47:16.:47:20.

have made decisions. Let's get to the substance, if you on a man or

:47:20.:47:23.

woman in their early 50s, who has worked in public services for 20 or

:47:23.:47:27.

30 years, the idea that you suddenly find out that you may have

:47:27.:47:31.

to wait years longer to get the pensions you believe you are

:47:31.:47:34.

entitled to, I think those people would say that is really not fair.

:47:34.:47:38.

A lot of people in the private sector have had to put up with that.

:47:38.:47:43.

A of course, you have to have changes for new workers. The deputy

:47:43.:47:46.

director of the CBI was asked about this in the studio last Wednesday.

:47:46.:47:51.

He said, well, I had a final salary pension. But new entrants have

:47:51.:47:54.

moved on to a funded scheme. That's happening in the public sector as

:47:54.:47:59.

well. What is worrying about the proposals is changing the rules for

:47:59.:48:02.

people in their 50s. That seems to not be fair. The anger in the

:48:02.:48:05.

country is not coming from trade union leaders, it actually coming

:48:05.:48:10.

from dinner ladies, teachers, civil service workers in their 50s who

:48:10.:48:16.

feel that they are having the road taken from under them. The thrust

:48:16.:48:19.

of John Hutton's proposals, you think they are wrong? I didn't say

:48:19.:48:23.

that a tour. If the proposals are right, the Government has to

:48:23.:48:28.

grapple with the issue and do something about it? -- I didn't say

:48:28.:48:38.
:48:38.:48:38.

It's not about reducing the deficit next year, it's over 50 or 60 years.

:48:38.:48:43.

So you would say do the same thing, but go slower? That's the right way

:48:43.:48:47.

to tackle pension reform. You are playing with people's lives. If you

:48:47.:48:51.

were told by the BBC that your pension you were expecting had been

:48:51.:48:54.

rewritten, you would go and get your lawyer. People have the right

:48:54.:48:58.

to be treated fairly and properly. The idea you have women in their

:48:58.:49:03.

50s being told on the state pension, or public service workers on their

:49:03.:49:07.

pensions, we are changing the rules just like that, in such a rapid

:49:07.:49:10.

way... It's not fair. Do you think they should strike later this

:49:10.:49:15.

month? I'm not going to condemn strikes that hadn't yet happened.

:49:15.:49:21.

You could offer them advice. I've said they have been wrong in the

:49:21.:49:30.

past, I did so over the nut strike. We need to get back around the

:49:30.:49:36.

table and discuss this. I don't think it's a political idea from

:49:36.:49:39.

the unions, their members are feeling very upset. George Osborne

:49:39.:49:42.

is desperate to have that confrontation. The trade unions

:49:42.:49:48.

must not walk into the trap of giving George Osborne the

:49:48.:49:51.

confrontation he wants. We should negotiate and that is the best way

:49:51.:49:56.

forward. If that is the case, the 700,000 people that are likely to a

:49:56.:49:59.

walkout in 10 days' time, they should not walk out because they

:49:59.:50:03.

are walking into the trap that you have described? This is not pre-

:50:03.:50:07.

ordained. It's entirely in the Government's hands. It also in the

:50:07.:50:10.

hands of unions and members? have seen in recent weeks and

:50:10.:50:14.

months a government that goes very political, Russia's ahead, finds it

:50:14.:50:18.

has the detail wrong and it has to pull back. We saw that on the NHS,

:50:18.:50:22.

on spending cuts and the deficit. The same has happened on pensions.

:50:22.:50:26.

The Government can say tomorrow, look, we are going to pull away

:50:26.:50:29.

quickly and have proper discussions right now, carried a song. If that

:50:29.:50:32.

happens, there is no need for these strikes. The British public doesn't

:50:33.:50:38.

want to go back to a decade where we have strikes and confrontation.

:50:38.:50:42.

George Osborne can't remember the miners' strike, we do. Greece,

:50:42.:50:46.

their economy is really on the edge now. His George Osborne right, do

:50:46.:50:50.

you think, to at least be involved in talks about putting in more

:50:50.:50:54.

British money for another bail out? I know we are not in the euro, but

:50:54.:50:57.

if Greece goes under in a bad way, it will affect our chances of

:50:57.:51:02.

recovery. I think George Osborne is getting that wrong, but not on that

:51:02.:51:06.

particular point. We are a member of the IMF, IMF money will be part

:51:06.:51:14.

of it. The real question is, is he arguing for a sensible way forward

:51:14.:51:17.

on this issue? My fear is that what is happening is that the European

:51:17.:51:21.

Union is saying to Greece have more austerity, have more cuts, we will

:51:21.:51:26.

give you some temporary finance. What is the alternative? The lesson

:51:26.:51:29.

of history, you see this in Latin America as well, if economies are

:51:29.:51:34.

not growing and creating jobs then the debt goes up, the deficit gets

:51:34.:51:37.

worse, the catastrophe at the end is bigger. I think we are heading

:51:38.:51:42.

for really dangerous times. The European Union has to realise that

:51:42.:51:45.

if it carries on in this way, temporary package and temporary

:51:45.:51:49.

package, in the end it will be more destabilising. I fear that our

:51:49.:51:52.

Chancellor is not standing up for a better and more sensible way

:51:52.:51:56.

forward and we will rue the day. you think we are going to lose

:51:56.:52:02.

members of the euro bloc? I think the critical commitment in those

:52:02.:52:05.

countries for staying in is very strong. I think the problem is that

:52:06.:52:09.

Germany never wanted that to happen on any terms. It's hard to see how

:52:09.:52:11.

they would stay in without substantial restructuring which

:52:11.:52:15.

would cost a lot of money for the rest of the Union. I think it's

:52:15.:52:19.

very difficult that the longer we wait the worse it gets. The fact is,

:52:19.:52:23.

over the last year, in other countries they put up VAT, they cut

:52:23.:52:26.

spending. And what has happened? Debt has gone up, croak has gone

:52:26.:52:34.

down, the crisis has got worse. -- growth has gone down. Austerity on

:52:34.:52:38.

its own never solve these problems. I think there is a blinkered view,

:52:38.:52:42.

that they wait until the next meeting and hope it goes away.

:52:42.:52:45.

the central economic argument, where you have been locking horns

:52:45.:52:48.

with the coalition so aggressively on both sides, public opinion

:52:48.:52:52.

doesn't seem to be with you at the moment. Quite small majorities of

:52:52.:52:56.

people, minorities of people, saying they agree with the Labour

:52:56.:53:00.

approach. Why did you think that is? It's not surprising if after

:53:01.:53:04.

three years, and we are partly responsible for this, all they have

:53:04.:53:07.

heard from the Conservatives, the newspapers and the BBC is that it

:53:07.:53:11.

is all Labour's Mez, caused by spending, the only way to get the

:53:11.:53:15.

deficit down his rapid cuts right now. What will actually make the

:53:15.:53:20.

difference is what actually happens. I'm happy to be judged on that. I

:53:20.:53:24.

think Ed Miliband has rightly said that he wants to make the argument

:53:24.:53:28.

about the future, and optimistic future. But it's hard to give

:53:28.:53:34.

optimism when the economy is flat lining. It will depend on what

:53:34.:53:41.

George Osborne does and I think we can win this document. -- argument.

:53:41.:53:45.

NATO says it is looking into claims by Libyan officials that at least

:53:45.:53:48.

five civilians were killed when an air strike destroyed a residential

:53:48.:53:53.

building in Tripoli. Journalists, including the BBC's Middle East

:53:53.:53:56.

editor Jeremy Bowen, were taken to the scene by government officials

:53:56.:54:01.

and saw people digging through the rubble with their bare hands. They

:54:01.:54:05.

also take into a hospital where a number of casualties were being

:54:05.:54:09.

treated. The shadow chancellor Ed Balls has

:54:09.:54:12.

warned the public sector unions that they should not walk into what

:54:12.:54:16.

he called the Government's trap by going on strike over changes to

:54:16.:54:20.

pensions. He said there was no need for strikes providing the

:54:20.:54:22.

Government was prepared to negotiate in good faith over

:54:22.:54:26.

pension reform. That's all from me for now. The

:54:26.:54:30.

next news on BBC One is at midday. We will get back to Andrew in a

:54:30.:54:35.

moment. First, he has a look at what is coming up after the show.

:54:35.:54:39.

Join us live from Glasgow for the last edition of this series, with

:54:39.:54:42.

Ken Clarke's long awaited sentencing proposals out next week.

:54:42.:54:47.

We will be asking if we are too soft on criminals. Peter Hitchens

:54:47.:54:52.

wants to bring back the short, sharp shock. With an aid convoy

:54:52.:54:56.

heading to Gaza, we asked if it is time to free Palestine.

:54:56.:55:01.

Ed Balls is still here. It is Father's Day. We should say

:55:01.:55:05.

something about that. What do you make of the call for being much

:55:05.:55:15.
:55:15.:55:16.

tougher on absent fathers? I... Personally, I feel a father should

:55:16.:55:22.

be with his children. So it's a fair thing for a politician to say?

:55:22.:55:30.

It's a fair thing for a father to say. After yesterday, my youngest

:55:30.:55:33.

got in trouble in class with throwing water about the place with

:55:34.:55:37.

a letter from the school. I upgraded her with this yesterday,

:55:37.:55:43.

as a result, I am not going to get a card. She thinks I am lousy. --

:55:43.:55:49.

berated her. I left home at 5.30 to be on the programme, our kids

:55:49.:55:52.

thought that was outrageous behaviour on Father's Day. I also

:55:52.:55:55.

think it's outrageous Ford David Cameron. He said something that is

:55:55.:56:00.

correct, fathers should take responsibility seriously. But he is

:56:00.:56:03.

charging others, when a father leaves, to going to the CSA. He's

:56:04.:56:08.

going to make it harder and the marriage tax cut would disadvantage

:56:08.:56:11.

the bomb left behind and give the tax break to the father that went

:56:11.:56:19.

off. His policies are flawed. knew you would get tax in there

:56:19.:56:23.

somewhere, a question on Father's Day... You've got to get behind the

:56:23.:56:28.

headlines, they are making it much worse. Also, a friend of mine that

:56:28.:56:32.

is a psychoanalyst says that in any election you are always playing he

:56:32.:56:38.

was the daddy? Who is the most father like figure. The father of

:56:38.:56:43.

the country? Who is going to be the father of the country. Or the

:56:43.:56:46.

mother of the country. The father of the nation. I think Ed Miliband

:56:46.:56:50.

would be a great father to the nation, don't you? We are out of

:56:51.:56:56.

time. Drawing me again next Sunday, when the one week of Wimbledon

:56:56.:56:59.

having gone I will be talking to one of the greatest tennis

:56:59.:57:04.

champions ever, Martina Navratilova. Until then, we leave you with Damon

:57:04.:57:09.

Albarn, performing his new competition he has written for the

:57:09.:57:19.
:57:19.:57:38.

# Pour the Apple quaffed from the # On the yellow dome, to great

:57:38.:57:44.

authority. # Singing Hallelujah, Hallelujah.

:57:45.:57:54.
:57:55.:57:55.

# In the kingdom of the broken heart.

:57:55.:58:05.
:58:05.:58:08.

# A blackbird sings. # The moon is stark.

:58:08.:58:18.
:58:18.:58:30.

# Burned the Apple cart, burn them until the Great Fire begins.

:58:30.:58:40.
:58:40.:58:45.

# There, beneath the stones, reach # From great austerity, and turning

:58:45.:58:51.

lovers. # Our disdain.

:58:51.:58:58.

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