07/08/2011 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. It may be the holiday season, and Andrew is certainly off

enjoying himself in hotter climes, but I am delighted to be steering

the show through. Already, this August is proving more lively than

our political leaders might have wished. With yesterday's dreadful

loss of life and now rioting in London overnight. Plenty for our

paper reviewers to get their teeth into. They are Maureen Lipman and

Matthew Oakeshott, a Liberal Democrat peer and former Treasury

spokesman. Days of financial turmoil and then the downgrading of

America's credit rating, have raised fears that leading economies

are in peril. No one seems sure what to do about it. Apparently,

there has been a flurry of international phone calls between

the holiday homes of Prime Ministers and presidents. Will they

come up with a plan? This morning, I will be asking Alastair Burt

about how the crisis is being managed. We will also be talking

about yesterday's US helicopter crash in Afghanistan. Will the loss

of so many servicemen intensify calls for the war to be brought to

an end? Here, Lord Prescott has been

drawing attention to the absence simultaneously of the Prime

Minister, Deputy Prime Minister and Chancellor, saying that it would

not have happened when he was in government. He joins us to talk

about how the Labour Party is reforming itself and the phone

hacking scandal which rumbles on, with the net spreading to other

papers. Also this morning, Dominic West, currently starring in the

West End, tells me about his specialist subject, self-

destructive man. From the cult American series, The Wire, to the

BBC's news room drama, The Hour. And there will be music to. The

unique sound of Fela Kuti, the Nigerian activist and creator of

afrobeat, being brought to life in the theatre. All of that coming up,

but first the news. Eight police officers are in

hospital, one with head injuries, after violent clashes in North

London. Buildings and vehicles were set on fire. Banks and shops have

been looted. The violence broke out after a protest against the fatal

shooting of a local man by police on Thursday. Andy Moore spent the

night in the area and came under attack himself from the rioters.

The moment the remains of a double- decker bus exploded on Tottenham

High Street. Around it, other buildings on fire. This abandoned

police car was attacked with missiles. It was later set alight

and two other police cars were also burnt-out. Right police faced

masked youths throwing stones and fireworks. -- riot police. Mounted

police were used to try to break up the crowds. Several police officers

were injured. The rioting followed a peaceful protest march earlier in

the day. People were angry about an incident on Thursday when armed

police shot dead a local man. The exact circumstances of what

happened are being investigated by the Independent Police Complaints

Commission. Relationships between them wider community and the police

locally a very good. People do business on a daily basis and

people live their lives in a peaceful way. Really, there is

nothing to underpin the level of violence that we have seen. Some

local people said that there was a grievance against the police.

Others said the incident was a pretext for writers. -- rioting by

local youngsters. Whatever the cause, this has been one of the

most serious riots in London for many years.

World leaders are trying to deal with the growing financial crisis

after the United States lost its AAA credit rating. Last week's

trading on the international money market hit its lowest point since

2008. Politicians are trying to calm nerves before trading begins

again on Monday. David Cameron broken to his holiday to discuss

problems and the Eurozone over the phone with Nicolas Sarkosy.

David Cameron says his thoughts are with the families of US military

personnel killed when their helicopter crashed in Afghanistan.

The 31 troops included members of the elite Navy seals unit, who died

alongside seven Afghan commanders. The family of a Royal Marine killed

in Afghanistan has said how proud it was of him and how he touched

the lives of everyone he knew. James Wright, 22, from 42 Commando,

was wounded by grenades during a battle. He died later of his

injuries. The British Schools exploring

Society has announced it is ending its Arctic exploration after an

polar bear killed a student. Arrangements are being made to

bring home the four people injured when the polar bear attack. The

family of Horatio Chapple have described him as strong and kind.

But is all for now. -- that is all. Our review of the Sunday papers and

a moment but first, writers have taken to the streets of Tottenham

in north London. Our reporter is there. What was the atmosphere?

Were their problems and the community before last night's

writes? They have been some tensions. -- riots. Back on

Thursday, police officers from Operation Trident, which

concentrates on gun crime, stopped a mini cab in Tottenham. A 29-year-

old man was shot, a man called Mark Duggan. That led to some tension.

Yesterday, the protests started off peacefully. 120 people marched on

the police station. Some time later, it turned violent. Something

happens to spark that. At one point, a double-decker bus was set on fire.

Three police vehicles were also set on fire. Eight officers were taken

to hospital, one of them suffering from head injuries. What is the

atmosphere like today? Is this situation ongoing? At the moment,

lots of people are coming down to see what is happening, because

there are still lots of police. Kent police were here last night.

We also have shots from a helicopter which show you the total

seen here this morning. There are lots of people looking at what is

going on. Lots of bricks on the floor and missiles. Thank you very

much. On to the newspapers. On the front pages, the Mail on Sunday

continues with that story. Pictures of riots in Tottenham. The Sunday

Times, another picture of Tottenham a blaze. Also, the big story for

many of us, bank gloom at deepening. We will be talking more about that

later. The Independent on Sunday, there is an exclusive in that they

have Gordon Brown weighing in: "I blame and, muckle and Sarkozy for

the financial crisis," He says. -- Angela Merkel. The Observer lead

with a financial crisis. The Sunday Telegraph goes off piste, with a

furious battle over the green belt. At least it is something we can

maybe do something about. Finally, the Sunday Express with the tragic

story which features on the Sunday Telegraph from cover, the picture

of Horatio Chapple, the young man tragically killed by a polar bear.

The Sunday Express talks about the hero who shot that there. Split-

second thinking. I am joined now by Maureen Lipman and Lord Oakeshott.

Can we start with you, Lord Oakeshott? What is the story that

is catching you arrive? The Big story is the financial crisis. --

catching you arrive. The Sunday Times is covering the story. There

is an interview there with Vince Cable. He is saying that living

standards will be badly hit and it will only change if we get

sustainable growth. The argument that is going on is whether tax

cuts are the way to do it. Vince Cable says no. He says that there

are sensible Cup's on low earners, but there are no free lunches. He

says that it needs to involve tax rises for the rich. He says the

Bank of England should print more money through quantitative easing,

and really getting to grips with bank lending. And he would not want

the 50 pence tax rate, which you? - - and you would not want the 50p

tax rate, would you? It is not a priority. Incentives work just as

much for the bottom as they do for the top. There is no room for tax

cuts like that. We have to get more money into the economy and make the

banks lend it. The top priority is to get the bank's lending,

particularly to small and medium- sized companies. They missed their

first target under the project Merlin agreement. But frankly, they

could meet that target. We have to start lending. This is not just a

summer event. Looking at the situation globally, there is a big

situation brewing. There is two aspects to this. I have been a fund

manager for 35 years and I lose count of the times we have had

over-reaction in the markets. Year after year, and not every year, but

every two or three years, there is a panic like this. The serious

professionals get in and buy. I was buying shares on Friday morning.

I'm sure when we look back, certainly in months and years, we

will see that this was a good buying opportunity. A lot of the

blame is falling on leadership, saying there is a crisis in the

Eurozone. I notice in the Sunday Times it is brought back to the

banks. You quote is saying that Bob Diamond lecturing us on damage is

like a hit and run driver lecturing us on driving. It was a banking

crash, that is how we got into the situation. That is why Vince Cable

and the Liberal Democrats and most of the Government are keen that

when the commission to reform the Bank's report on the tour for a

September, that we then get on with it and reform them once and for all.

Has anything changed? Not very much. We've still got bonus of diamonds

running Barclays. -- Bob Diamond. He would be better as the manager

of a casino. Maureen Lipman, your story is about the man who could

possibly do something about it. it? Oh, George and a duck. It is

equivalent of a Los Angeles dock. And they are all on holiday.

Cameraman Clegg from holiday. Does it matter? -- Cameron and Clegg are

on holiday. I am up there with Vince. Perhaps he can sort us out.

I do not think it makes much difference if people go on holiday.

As a member of the public, how does it make you feel? George Osborne

having a whale of the time. I just think it does not matter any more

because it is a global world and you sit at your computer in the

evening when everybody else is at McDonald's. This is just the page

filler. They have given him little bobbles, one of which says "If

everyone else is having a double dip, so can I". Frankly, the story

is silly. The story is about why they do not rush back from a

holiday. People need holidays. Sure, many people in this country cannot

afford one. Andrew definitely needed one. This is quite

ridiculous. What takes the biscuit is that next to it, Ed Balls is

saying that there are no were to be seen and there is a lack of

leadership because they are holiday. He has written that see -- that

piece from a campsite in the Pyrenees and Ed Miliband is a way

as well. Lord Prescott will be on to speak for Ed Balls later on.

Tell me about your next story. The dreadful famine in Somalia. It

seems to have lost space in the headlines. You mentioned Vince

Cable sorting out the economy. I took over Vince Cable's bed in a

house in 1968 when we were in our youth working for the Kenyan

economy. There is a story and that! I never met him. I have met him

since. This is a very serious story in the Independent, which is

running an excellent campaign to give a day's pay for Africa. 2

million East African infants are starving. The situation is

desperate. Even in Kenya, which is pretty rich but very unfair, and

there is a lot of famine, today we found a grandfather reading his

grandson the last rites. In the midst of all this, our worry that

we are a bit poorer, let us keep a sense of perspective and remember

that people are starving to death. And when there are situations like

the current financial turmoil in Europe, we start talking about

overseas development money and cutting that. Is that absolutely

something we should continue to ring-fence? I do. I take my hat off

to the Conservatives, our partners in the coalition government for

this, this is absolutely central. Andrew Mitchell was out and kept me

up recently. -- out in Kenya recently. If we needed to save

money abroad, we should look seriously at the �4 billion a year

we are wasting on a failed campaign to save a failed state in

And more of that one later. Maureen. It is how a story like this

suddenly takes over and drivers everything else off the headlines.

This famine must have been coming for years and years. Why did nobody

see it? And also, people don't really know that when they give,

and we must all give, where it is going. They don't see the results

of this. There is always, Kenya and that part of East Africa are always

subject to recurring famines. When I was there from 1968 to 70 they

are there. This time we've got total breakdown of Government in

Somalia and it is very difficult for the aid agencies to operate.

There's a real issue as to whether shoe be operating in Somalia at all.

We worked closely with Oxfam. We support Oxfam and they keep us

closely in touch with what they are doing. We are probably going there

at Christmas to see what's going on. We the next story is about the

tragic helicopter crash-shooting? Well, this is madness to camp on a

hot spot glacier, says an expert in the Sunday Mirror. Perhaps that is

not Afghanistan in that case. I think we are talking about the

polar bear incident in Norway. are, poor Norway. Sorry, I thought

that was the second one. I was brought up in a family where my

family said, "Go slowly when you go upstairs." So you wouldn't have

been going off to Norway. Young people, they went off on an

adventure of a lifetime, terrible photographs of the young man,

Horatio Chapple. Unbearable for the parents and for the school. And

there'll be some people in the expedition who will say, why can't

we go on? I'm amazed. I would like to keep my 37-year-old and 31-year-

old here. I look at my five and six-year-old when I see stories

like this and think, you are never leaving the house. But they, will

sadly. Save us from our sentimental selves. You are going to talk about

the green belt story, which is Sunday Telegraph has gone against

the grain with. A headline in the Sunday Telegraph, there's a furious

battle over the green belt, with the National Trust and the council

for the preservation of Ural England mobilising millions of

members against the new planning laws, which to many of us do worry

us. They are going too far relaxing planning permission in this country.

What the Telegraph are pointing out, under the headline, will Britain

remain green and pleasant? Sadly the Minister has accused the

National Trust and the campaign of taking part in a left-wing smear

campaign, because they involve the new regulations. I don't think I'm

meant to smile but I'm smiling. ought to have learnt our lesson

when we tried to privatise the Forestry Commission. These from

people with genuine concerns. I've heard the National Trust and CPRE

call �things but left-wing is another one. Maureen, a last story

from you. Sally Bercow is going on Big Brother for a bit of froth.

interested interesting choice why. Would she be doing, that Maureen,

with a husband who I think was campaigning for less trivialisation

in politics. That's true. I think she likes publicity. I think she's

a feisty woman. I'm the person who told Chris big begins not to go on

Celebrity and he won, so I shouldn't really be bringing this

story up. What's interesting about this to me is there always has to

be a terrible, bombastic, wicked woman or the programme doesn't work.

Television now is all about conflict. We have enough conflict

in our life without television. Sally keeps putting her head above

the parapet. Jackie O didn't in her lifetime but it seems there was a

lot more going on pine the scenes. She said, "I took drugs, cheated

with a movie star and I believe LBJ killed JFK" and that is going to be

a programme on American television. She says she wanted the truth to

come out. I suspect she really didn't and that some money is being

made by the family. The truth will always out. I don't know about

killing JFK but I think she's entitled to cheat with a movie star

or two given what we know now that JFK was cheating too.

Thank you. Now the weather. Let's find out whether the slate grey

find out whether the slate grey skys have dissipated. Good morning

to you. It will improve temporarily over the next couple of days as a

ridge of high pressure builds in. There's a Met Office amber warning

for rain in the eastern part of Scotland. There could be localised

flooding today. For Scotland it is cloudy and wet. Heavy downpours of

rain here. For the rest of us there'll be spells of sunshine,

also showers. These could be heavy and thundery for Wales and south-

western England. Feeling cool for the time of year. Temperatures in

the teens. Overnight there'll be rain for a time in Scotland. That

will fade away. Thundery showers affecting southern coasts of the

counties of England. Otherwise mainly dry by dawn. A mild night.

Temperatures in double figures. Monday, a cloudy and grey start to

the day. More cloud than brightness for northern England, Northern

Ireland and Scotland. There'll be a brisk breeze in England and Wales.

Temperatures peaking at 20-21. Bright skies on Tuesday. Rain

pushing into northern parts of the Fela Kuti was one of the top names

on the world music scene - a Nigerian musician and political

activist who created a unique sound and used it to rail against state

corruption and violence in his country. His life story has been

transformed into a sizzling stage show, which has already triumphed

on Broadway and is now a hit in London. Fela! The musical explores

the origins of Afrobeat, but is also a journey into the heart of

Nigeria, its turbulent post- Colonial history and the abuses

which Fela Kuti condemned so searingly in his music and lyrics.

His critics say that Fela, who died in 1997, was a womanising, sexist

drug abuser with a continental- sized ego. His supporters say he

inspired Nigerians and Africans generally to challenge the powerful

and corrupt. I'm joined now by Sahr Ngaujah, who plays Fela onstage,

and the DJ Rita Ray, an authority on the life and times of Fela Kuti.

You've been playing this man for five years, first on Broadway and

now in the UK. Were you initially daunted in taking on the life story

of such a legendary character? was really honoured to have the

opportunity. And, of course, he means so much to so many people

around the world. Particularly to Africans. Of course it was

something I didn't take lightly. I gave as much energy as I could into

every aspect that I was able to - every aspect of Fela's life I was

able to access in my developmental process. Rita, tell me a bit about

Afrobeat A way, his creation of it was the combination of his life

experiences wasn't it, in terms of his travel and so on? Well,

musically, Afrobeat, for me, one of the most extraordinary things about

it is that Fela Kuti was one of the few people to actually create a new

genre of music, his own genre of music. Afrobeat is the synthesis of

rhythms, Ghanaian high life and funk. He welded it together, but

that was to support his vision, his indictment of Nigerian,

international politics. He was an agitator. And that was all the

effect, he lived in London for a time studying music, he was

interest jazz and he went to America wand and was politicised

there. Absolutely, and he used all of this in his music. Fela Kuti was

very much his music. The way he railed against the governments, the

way he pushed his own society, his own people, to wake up and look at

what you've got. Enjoy what you've got. It was a brilliant mix of art,

fun and social agitation. People flocked, didn't they, to his

nightclub in Lagos. Absolutely. All types of people flocked to his

nightclub. The young people were drawn to him. As you would find in

any society or culture, people, when kids are growing up, they

gravitate towards the things where people say, don't listen to that

guy, don't go his way, but they did. Even politicians used to sneak into

it because they could identify with it. It was the only place you would

find all types of people - prostitutes, politicians, students

and intellectuals. They got there together and enjoyed a free space.

It was incredible. What about his politics? Was he a one-man band? He

seemed to be a maverick, he set up his own state in his home compound

in Lagos. Was he one voice against the generals? To a large degree. He

was a part of a movement but when we talk about that movement, I

think it exfoonds a more global situation. Or -- expands to a more

global situation. Or in Fela's world, to a pan African situation.

What was going on in Nigeria at the time, there was a lot of repression

and fella was one who was bold -- and Fela was one who was bold

enough to stand up against it. we in danger of overmyth oljizing

him? He was accused of being a womaniser. His mother though was a

feminist. Was he rebelling against? This is an interesting conversation.

Overknit ologisi nirksgfrpblgts put into context he was a rock star.

When we talk about the latest headlines from anybody in the music

industry, what is it? It is sensationalism and it is also

something that actually happened. How do we deal with that? It

depends on each individual's compass. He married 27 wives for

example. 26 of those 27 were from polygamous families. In this

society, when we talk about polygamy there's a cultural thing

where we say if it is a polygamist society who is a misogynist and who

is doing what? It is a different culture. In the end he divorced

them all, saying marriage was about selfishness. Tell us about the song

you are going to sing at the end of the show, international thief thief.

Yes, ITT, it was one of the first songs I discovered as a young child.

In Africa, when someone steals something in a community, if you

see someone stealing you chase them and you call them thief, "Thief,

thief, thief." They would chase people out of villages and towns.

So this is a song about thieving on a grander, a political scale.

international scale. International Thief Thief, as the song is called.

Sahr Ngaujah and Rita Ray, thank you very much.

In a few weeks' time, Ed Miliband will celebrate his first

anniversary as Labour leader. His MPs were pleased with his

performance over the phone hacking saga, so will that embolden him to

push through new policies and reforms to the party? There's talk,

for example, of moves to curb the influence of the trade unions,

which could cause a fight at the party conference next month. I'm

joined now by someone who's been round that particular course before,

the former deputy leader, Lord Prescott. Welcome. Good morning.

Lovely to have you here. Arguably, Ed Miliband's handling of the phone

hacking scandal has been his finest hour to date. He even got the

public inquiry he was campaigning for. Do you think, in terms of that

whole phone hacking scandal, the truth is finally going to out?

I think it is. When I was told by the police for a couple of years

there was no phone hacking of my messages, I didn't believe them and

went to the courts. Now we have a new inquiry by the Assistant

Commissioner. She apologised to me and said there were 44 taps. So why

did they ignore all that evidence? I'm glad we've got an inquiry which

Ed called for. He's identified what he thinks his job is with the

Labour Party, to look at the vested interests of power and make change.

Reform is very much associated with I know you are very critical of the

police investigation. This week, with Heather Mills' allegations,

further proof that the Met goes wider. I have always thought it

wider than that. -- than that. You have to look at what the

commissioner said in 2008 when the information commissioner looked at

all of this tapping. He found that there were 30 papers, 300

journalists and hundreds of thousands of pounds being paid out.

We ignored that evidence and we are now living with the consequences of

what has gone on. There has been an inquiry and the Press Complaints

Commission has got to be reformed. Pretty useless under the previous

commissions. We have got the inquiry and we now have something

that means it will no longer be business as usual, whether for the

press or the police and the relationship between those two.

Fundamental reform is on the way. You mentioned the Press Complaints

Commission and the ruthlessness of them and their approach. -- to

ruthlessness. How should the system be reformed? We lost the

opportunity in 2009. The press fought against an independent body.

We compromised and said, OK, if you think you can do it with self

regulation, we will see. We have now got the answer to that. They

need to have a form of regulated body. What sort of regulation?

1997, we said we needed a body that was independent. They can have

editors on it, but not too many. The others were like puppets on a

string. We can have an independent body with some form of sanction,

and the requirement to consult with it. We cannot have the one that was

totally controlled in a self regulatory manner. We need to go

back to what was proposed in 1997. I think we can build on that

structure. We need a proper balance between the issue of public and

private interests, with the editors -- which the editors have totally

ignored. Would she be auditioning for that role? -- would you be.

That would be throwing the cat among the pigeons! Just asking.

Talking of Ed Miliband, he had success with the hacking scandal,

but it was very much regarded as about time. He needed to put a

success under his belt. Up until this issue blew up, he did not have

much to talk about. He has only been in the job 12 months, and you

will all the sudden want him transformed! He is the leader of

the Labour Party and he wants to make change. He stands for reform,

and it will take in more than a week. He is talking about reform of

that trade unions and in the areas of energy pricing, supermarkets,

all these areas. All these areas were concentrated power is working

against ordinary people. Let us talk about power working against

the people. He seems to be turning his gaze next to the unions. Is

that an issue that needs to be looked at? Euro was involved in it.

-- you are always involved. What do you mean? One-man, one-vote was

sometimes ago. The glory days. was an argument about the block

vote and constituency members. That argument continues now, whether it

is in the conference or in policy- making. Those arguments are still

to be done. Ed Miliband has set up a rewarding at the party conference,

involving the can as trade unions - - trade unions and the

constituencies. There is a feeling that perhaps the power of the trade

unions has been loaded against the constituencies. When I stood for

treasurer, I got 63% of the votes of the constituency and hardly

anything from the unions because three or four general secretaries

decided that I would not be the one, and therefore, they did not ballot

their members. So you would support a reduction in the vote in terms of

the conference? I think the debate should go on. The debate has to

come to a conclusion. 90% of Labour spending comes from the unions.

conclusion will come at conference. That is the constitution. Miliband

will have to put these and arguments for it. The conference

will make a decision. These are constitutional changes. There --

they are always controversial. But he is a man of reform and he is

making headway. One of the things the general public have made clear,

relating to the phone hacking scandal, is that they do not want

their political leaders to be in thrall to anybody, not to media

barons and certainly not to the trade unions. With 90% of the

Labour Party funding coming from trade unions, turkeys do not vote

for Christmas. Are the unions going to be taking part in their own

decline of power? I heard that when we had one man, one vote, and we

had a vote and the party decided it wanted the change and changed the

block voting. It is not entirely in our area, these changes. There is a

standards report looking at the financing of individual members of

political parties. That will raise some controversial issues about

political levy-paying members. Reforms are coming from other areas

but Ed Miliband is trying to encompass it in a modern party in

modern circumstances, and is making some headway. Is he in the country?

You have been tweeting about the absence of some other politicians.

It is unbelievable. Every August for 10 years, people think all this

is a quiet time. We had the tsunami and I had the Omagh bombing and the

terrorist attacks. All of those at occured on my watch. No wonder they

are not leaving you in charge any more! You are a magnet for

disasters! What Tony and I did, we had all the ministers giving us our

holiday times and we insisted there was a senior minister about at all

the time. I had one Junior Minister say he could do it from Cornwall

and I said that he could not. Get up here, I want a full team sitting

Cabinet discussing the issues. Those crisis can be handled. --

crises. How does George Osborne have a telephone call in the middle

of the night talking about a crisis?! I have just heard a

Liberal Democrat, spokesman for Vince Cable, say there is no crisis.

I do not know what will he is living in. We get the message, John

Prescott. George Osborne is probably hoping that any disaster

happened on the American side of the timeline. -- any disasters

happen. Dominic West is one of the biggest

names in television today. From The Wire to The Hour, he has displayed

versatility and watch ability on screen, as an utterly believable

alter more detective or as a suave BBC presenter from the Fifties. --

Baltimore detective. I caught up with him recently between

performances of Buckley, a play from 1971, which has been revived

to great acclaim in the West End. I began by asking him whether the

humour has dated over 40 years. What is interesting is that so many

of the jokes about class and the less PC jokes would have been

greeted with great hilarity in the Seventies and are greeted with a

sort-of gobsmacked tittering now. Do you want a smack? For quickly,

but not permanently. Do you want to come back. No. We have cleared up

that then. I think we will get on very well from now on. He is a

brilliant guy, a Professor of English literature who can only

read Beatrix Potter. He is burnt out. I was the ideal guide to play

it. He is not very likeable. think he is likeable. What you like

about him two I think he is funny. -- What do you like about him? I

think he is funny and damaged. What do Tom and Reg have to do with ask?

He has asked me to marry him. won? You look like you're enjoying

playing comedy. Yes, yeah. It is not your usual bent. No. No one

ever asks me to do comedy. I do not understand why. I want to talk to

you about The Hour. Obviously, you cannot have a drama about current

affairs that does not include some romance, and there is romance in

The Hour, your relation with Romola Garai. Also, interesting

juxtaposition of stereotypes, because you play the slightly dim

but handsome news reader and she is the ambitious, sexually predatory

producer. Yeah. Tell me about your relationship. Her character's

flirtation with my character is doomed, I think, and it is purely

based on physicality. You seem very bright this morning. I had a great

night. I did not sleep a wink. extraordinary. Neither did I. Miss

Rowley. Audacious. The papers are run. -- are in. The Telegraph, the

male, all leading with the story. How different is it making a

programme like that to making a proper run like The Wire in

Baltimore? Is at a difference of budget or scale? That is the

difference at the British TV and American TV. It is money. --

between British TV and American TV. The Wire was shot for six months

but the hour -- The Hour is only three or four. In terms of the

writer Ian King, The Hour is the same as The Wire. -- the writer Ian

King. When you went to Baltimore, was a Taoiseach? One of the things

that was so striking was that it was a part of the underbelly of

America but we never see. remember going around the Houses

and the bad neighbourhoods, actually really lovely Houses under

a beautiful blue sky, and the producers and the writers saying,

isn't this awful? I was saying, God, you should see Sheffield. Some of

inner-city Britain, I don't know, a blue sky can do a lot for a place.

I was not shocked in that way, but I suppose I was shocked by the

amount of drugs and the amount of guns. You're one of the very few

actors that say that fame is great and you enjoy it, maybe because it

has crept up slowly. Do you still feel that to be the case? I do. I

am at a certain level which is very manageable. Most people do not care.

Just a few people, usually who watch The Wire, they tend to be

quite nice people and I like talking to them. I am at a good

level. Any more and I think it would be a pain. Any less, there

are no perks. I feel that there is nautical ever written about me that

is not prefixed with "Gravelly voiced blonde." I think there's no

article about you that does not mention you been an old Etonian.

would rather be a gravelly voiced blonde! Gravelly faced?! Thank

you(!) Have you ever imagine that your parents' choice of school

would continue to define you two decades afterwards? It is

extraordinary. It is the only thing...The response will you do

not. It is the byline, it is what will be written. It is not written

about anyone -- any other school. Readers are interested. Everyone, I

think, in acting, has to overcome people's idea of them in terms of

typecasting. Everybody does. And that is my worry. Dr me about

playing the ago. Have you always hankered after that? That self-

destructiveness, also the futility. He is mean in the same way that

Berkeley is, with no result in the end. Well, I do not think that is

really what attracted me to either character. They both have in common,

for me, the fact that they make doing bad and evil, they make it

sort of sexy and fun and likeable. In spite of how destructive hitters.

That is delicious to play. I think I'm going to play him exactly like

I am playing Buckley in many ways, but this character is the king of

that. I have not seen too many, but I think his language is gorgeous.

He is not merely as articulate as Othello, but his language is

amazing and his deviousness, I just love his grinning, when he is

I know you have also embarked on playing Fred West, qirt a

controversial choice. Some people horrified that he was going to be

brought to the screen. Why did you choose to play him? The short

answer is I thought the script was great. It is quite a responsibility,

isn't it, to take on a real character like that? Absolutely, so

I had obviously to clear it in my own mind, the moral question of

whether these monsters should be brought back into the public eye. I

did so through long talks with the producers, who referenced the

sister of one of his victims, who wrote an article for the Guardian

shortly after he committed suicide, saying this case should never be

forgotten and that the problem, far from going away, is getting worse,

and these things should always be discussed. I think drama is a very

good way of discussing that. I think what people are horrified of

is the idea that he should be portrayed in a pornographic or a

horror format. I think if it is good drama, I think that's a

perfectly legitimate thing to do. It is a very important thing to do

and it is one of the functions of drama. The actor Dominic West

talking to me yesterday. And now I'm joined by the Foreign Office

Minister with responsibility for the Middle East and Afghanistan,

Alistair Burt. Let's start with who exactly is in charge of the

Government. I know we live in a technological age, but with

photographs in the newspapers of the Prime Minister playing ten in

this Tuscany, and pictures of the Chancellor, George Osborne,

visiting theme parks in California, there's a sense of who is in charge,

with �150 billion being wiped off the British share market. The Prime

Minister is always in charge, wherever he might be. You are right

in saying that, technologically, you can be in contact anywhere.

These people, Prime Ministers, presidents and Charles, are in

different countries anyway, and keeping in contact. The Foreign

Secretary is here in the UK. There's a sense, I'm a member of

the general public, you feel like you need general reassurance, the

markets are in turmoil, isn't there a case for the Prime Minister, if

not coming home to reassure people, at least making an appearance? It

is not a silly season scare, this is a real crisis. No, it is not a

silly season scare, but, as your guest said, there is always a call

from the opposition to say where is the Government's leaders. The Prime

Minister is in constant contact, so is the foreign secy. There are

plenty of statements being made about what reassurance can be given,

it is a serious issue. But to say that they are not in touch... John

Prescott, if he thought he was in charge because Tony Blair and

Alastair Campbell were out of the country, he was the only time he

did. He did take a bit of time off for co Question Time didn't he. --

for croquet didn't he? Can we expect to see face to face meetings

in the next few days, perhaps a G7 summit followed bay G8? It is

possible, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer would certainly be there.

It is important that the eurozone countries deliver on the agreement

they made in July, in term of the bail-out in relation to Greece.

They've got deliver on what they said. Secondly, individual

countries have got to show they've got the same sense of commitment to

the measures necessary in their own countries to reduce their debt and

restructure their economies. That's got to be done by them. Thirdly, we

do all recognise this is something that does have an effect on us,

even though we've been in a different position, largely because

of the steps we took when we became the Government last year. We do

talk about annus and them situation, Britain described as a safe hav

almost like a by-stander, but what happens in the eurozone has a

direct impact on what happens in the UK? It does, there is no doubt

about that, but our ability to influence that is limited. It has

to be done with international action. You see, that makes me

nervous as soon as you say "limited". We have to recognise

what happens in other countries is very much a matter for them. What

happens in eurozone countries, these are decisions they have to

take, just as the United States has to take. Again it is important,

when we came into office, Standard & Poor's, the credit rating agency

which just issued its position on the United States, they had the

United Kingdom at the time of the last leeks on what's they called a

negative outlook on its credit rating. They were thinking of

dropping it. By October, when we introduced the budget and said this

is what we are going to do, they removed that negative remark and

said that was fine. We all have to make sure we get out of this, and

it is important that we do, but it is worth thinking where we were and

how we are now. There is no magic bullet. Will it be hard but we must

stick to the course we've set. public probably feel they are

working hard. It doesn't help when they see pictures of the Government

enjoying far-flung places. Let's turn to Afghanistan and this

dreadful helicopter. It has been called by many newspapers as

shootdown by the Taliban rather than a crash. That must be deeply

alarming, because it didn't happen in the south of the country, where

we are fighting, it happened in Wardak, not far from Kabul. It's

been a tragedy. At the moment the investigation's not complete. It is

not possible to say precisely what happened. However it happened, the

loss of so many forces a matter of deep regret. The Prime Minister

issued a statement yesterday about this. It is terribly sad. It shows

the commitment that the United States and ourselves and the Afghan

community and the Afghan soldiers are making to try and make their

country safer and secure for the future. We will go on. The

determination of both the United States, ourselves and the people of

Afghanistan to make their country secure for the future is

undiminished by an incident like this. It reminds us of the cost.

Don't you think this could be the final straw, particularly for the

American public, who are already desperately weary of this war, the

sense of the few tilt of it. If they hear something like this,

which could well be a Taliban victory, so to speak, so close to

the capital, Kabul? It is hard and its impact shouldn't be diminished,

but at the same time there are other things going on which shows

the progress made. Provinces are going on to transition, where the

Afghan forces take control of their own areas. That is proceedings. In

Helmand, that that too is moving towards a transition where Afghan

forces are taking over their own security. There is work going on on

political reconciliation, work on constitutional development.

There'll be set-waxment -- set- backs, but it is important to

balance it with the other good work that's being done. That's why

ourselves, and the United States, are committed to helping the Afghan

people beyond 2015, when our combat troops will have left. If you see

Afghanistan moving forward, another open-ended conflict is what's going

on in Libya. That seems very much to be in a state of stalemate, as

described by the chairman of the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee

Richard Ottaway. Do you see it as a stalemate? No, we see it as steady

progress being made. All the time the regime is being degraded. I've

been in Abu Dhabi and Istanbul for the two contact group meetings with

the Foreign Secretary recently, to see the commitment of other nations,

who know that Gaddafi was a bad example of Arab Government, of

north African Government. They want to see him gone, to see civilians

protected. Our determination to do that is clear. Everyone wants to

see him gone, it seems, yet he doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

He is still es konsed in Tripoli. What further initiatives can we

have? We've recognised the transitional Government now. Is it

possible to unfreeze some of Libya's assets in order to fund

them, to buy arms? It seems that something has to move that

situation forward. It's a question of being patient and persistent.

The work will go on to ensure that the Gaddafi regime is less likely

to attack its own people, which it is still doing. That could stop

tomorrow if Gaddafi would do that. The work to support the

transitional will go on. There's a legal question about unfreezing

assets. The UN is involved. A Special Envoy is being created by

the Secretary-General to see negotiation, to see parents

possible to get a political settlement. But it can only come

when there was a ceasefire, when Gaddafi's troops stop killing. He

does of course have to be out of the way. It is not just Gaddafi's

troops that are killing. There is news about Syria that Bashar al-

Assad's troops are moving in on another troop. We seem to be

incapacityed to do anything but give him warnings. Ban Ki-Moon has

spoken to al-Assad. Syria is appalling and it is deeply

frustrating to have to watch what is going on. But again, things are

happening there. We've been at the forefront in terms of EU sanctions

on key figures responsible for the violence. We helped to get the UN

presidential statement last week. Interestingly over the last 24

hours a statement by the Gulf countries, the first time a group

of Arab nations have said this really has to stop. Briefly, could

Syria be slipping into civil war? It is difficult to say. What is

clear is the regime is intent on killing its own people and that

must stop. Alistair Burt, thank you. Now over to Naga Munchetty for the

headlines. Eight police officers are in

hospital, one with head injuries, after violent clashes in north

London. Buildings and vehicles, including police cars and a double-

decker bus, were set on fire, and banks and shops were looted. The

violence broke out in Tottenham, after a protest against the fatal

shooting of a local man by police on Thursday. World leaders are

trying to deal with a growing financial crisis after the United

States lost its AAA credit rating. Last week's trading on the

international money markets hit its lowest point since 2008, and

politicians are trying to calm nerves before trading starts again

on Monday. David Cameron broke into his holiday to discuss the US

downgrade and problems in the eurozone over the phone with the

French President, Nicolas Sarkozy. That's all from me for now. The

next news on BBC One is at midday. Back to Mariella in a moment, but

first a look at what's coming up after this show. Today on Sunday

Morning Live, one of those responsible for the death of Baby P

is released early. Is that a crime in itself? Or is it good British

justice? Who knows best how to bring up your

kids - you or the Government? And we'll be hearing from an exorcist

on how the devil can make you di aicted to drink or drugs.

Well, we're nearly out of time. I hope you enjoyed the show. And with

our leaders away, we thought we'd all have a play. The team here are

taking a break for the next three weeks. But Andrew Marr will be back,

for the new season, on the 4th of September. So do join him then, but

for now, enjoy the rest of the summer and we leave you with the

stars of Fela! The musical, and a number called International Thief

Thief. It's 25 minutes long in its original form, but it's a bit

shorter this morning. Goodbye. # There are little thieves and big

things, I've seen the future # We can confront these criminals

wherever they are in the world # You'll be the one

# Set this world on fire # We must think of our destiny

# We must take our destiny into our own hands

# Now, the time is now # The future is now

# We are going to fight them # We go fight them

# We go fight them, very well # We refuse to carry any more of

your lies # We don't have to carry any more

of your lies # I am Fela Kuti