04/09/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


04/09/2011

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He Good morning. It is great to be back. I gather nothing happened in

:00:43.:00:49.

August, locally. This morning, the bad news is of my guests include

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the man twice voted, he reminds us, Britain's most boring politician.

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The good news is, after what he has written about life in Gordon

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Brown's Government, Alastair Darling won't be winning that title

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this year. The newspapers are bubbling about the coalition

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Government, about Libya and connections with Colonel Gaddafi.

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To review them I am joined by the Times Defence Editor Deborah Haynes

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and the Daily Telegraph novelist Alison Pearson. Another award

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received by Alastair Darling was a survivor of the year. His account

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of the last years of the Labour Government is one of exasperation

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and private fury about the behaviour of Gordon Brown. But also

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of future decisions taken as Britain struggled to cope with the

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breakdown in the banks and the recession. We will hear about his

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book and what he thinks about the economy now on the Bank of

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England's future. We will hear from senior representative of Lydia's

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transitional council to make sure the country does not descend into

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the kind of chaos that engulfed Iraq after the fall of that regime.

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And about Colonel Gaddafi's fate if and when he is caught. Some

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children it will be heading for the very first 24, free schools amid

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stories of the coalition arguments about them. Michael Gove, the

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Education Secretary is here to talk about free schools, academies and

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disciplined. Finally, music. # We are listening and we are not

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blind. Born in Dundee and followed around

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the world, Snow Patrol are here with their latest album.

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Before that, the news. The former Chancellor of the

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Exchequer, Alastair Darling has said there was a permanent air of

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chaos and crisis when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister. In extracts

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from his memoirs published in the Sunday Times, he accuses Mr Brown

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of sometimes appalling behaviour during the banking crisis.

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It was a relationship strained beyond breaking point, that has

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left the former Chancellor scarred. That is according to Alastair

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Darling, who describes how difficult his dealings were with

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Gordon Brown in a new memoir, serialised in the Sunday Times.

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Alastair Darling does not hold back in his denunciation of the former

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Prime Minister. He accuses Gordon Brown of sometimes appalling

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behaviour during the three years they grappled with the banking

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crisis. Mr Darling says at first Gordon Brown believed the economy

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would recover within six months and did not trust his Chancellor's

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advice. He describes the dysfunctional Downing Street and

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calls it a brutal regime. In 2009 Gordon Brown tried to replace him

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with Ed Balls which resulted in angry exchanges with Mr Dorrell

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refused to be reshuffled within the Cabinet. Alastair Darling

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criticises the banks for their ingratitude an air of disdain after

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they were bailed out by the Government. For Labour's new

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leadership, this the memoir is an awkward reminder of the recent

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poisonous past. Gordon Brown could not be reached for comment.

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The front-runner for the leadership of the Scottish Conservative says

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he will disband the party in Scotland if he wins the contest. Mr

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Fraser says the Conservatives carry too much baggage and wants to set

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up a new centre-right party to attract more voters.

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Libyan fighters loyal to the National Transitional Council are

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preparing to advance on a desert town other Bani Walid, one of the

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last strongholds of pro Gaddafi forces. They have issued an

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ultimatum for them to surrender or face an attack. Thousands of

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fighters are said to be moving in from three sides and its is thought

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many of the family may have fled through Bani Walid.

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As many as 400,000 people have joined demonstrations across his

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round in protest at the high cost of living. The largest protest is

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in Tel Aviv. The protesters have been demanding cheaper housing, tax

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cuts and improved access to free education.

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Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the former head of the International Monetary

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Fund has a right back in France. He was once seen as a possible

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contender for the French presidency, and has been in the United States

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since May, when he was accused of attempting to rape a hotel

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chambermaid. The charges were dropped but he faces a sexual

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assault charge in France. That all from me for now and I'll

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be back just before 10 am with the headlines.

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The front pages as expected. The The front pages as expected. The

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Mail on Sunday, secret files, Labour lied over Gaddafi. Lots of

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files turning up in Tripoli at the moment. People poring over them.

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The Sunday Times has the Alastair Darling, Gordon Brown's story.

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Browns of the world's worst financial crisis would last only

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six months. Another Libyan related stories saying MI5 espied on Libyan

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torture victims and dissidence against Gaddafi. Speaking of

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Scotland, the Sunday Telegraph, interesting story. Tory set to

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disband in Scotland. They are going to get rid of the name, or one of

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the potential leader said they should. They will call themselves

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the Jacobites, maybe it is just rebranding?

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New coalition splits over schools, banks and health, as well. A lot

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about coalition problems in the papers this morning, including in

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the observed there. Baroness Williams plunges NHS reforms into

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fierce turmoil. As promised, Deborah Haynes is here

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and Alison Pearson is here. A lot to talk about and I think we will

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start with a bit of Tripoli, Libya? The two papers that are leading the

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way this morning on the latest from Libya, are the Sunday Times and the

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Daily Mail. -- Sunday Mail. They have managed to find a bunch of

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documents that show the cosy relationship the British Government

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had it with the previous regime, which will prove embarrassing

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reading, given what has happened. Let's talk about this. One of the

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allegations is Abdelbaset Ali al- Megrahi, the Lockerbie bomber was

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got out of jail by the Labour Government because they were

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worried about what Colonel Gaddafi was going to do if they didn't.

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From what I have read there is lots of worrying e-mails and letters

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from British diplomats and others to the Government saying we are

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worried about Gaddafi in this issue. But there is nothing hard coming

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back from the British Government at that time saying, OK let him out

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then? That is the smoking gun and nobody has found by yet. I imagine

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it is what people are looking for right now. I am sure the Government

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will have sent somebody in encase if it does exist, it does not get

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fan. Bill looks like there was lots of cosy help for the regime? To a

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civilian it is deeply compromising and sordid. We have got the SAS who

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had been training the people in Libya, is that right? Now going

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back to train the other people. They were our friends, now they are

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our enemies, they were our enemies, now they are friends. That was her

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HND's policy at the time. What is interesting is the revelations in

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the UK, the secret intelligence services, MI5 passed on names of

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dissidents in the UK who are now the ones leading this revolution

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and will be leading the country. It does smack a bit of hypocrisy, but

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it is just politics. Pity grim. We passed on names of dissidents who

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now we will be supporting RS the new leaders. They will count the

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fact we supported them over the fact we snitched on them, I don't

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know? Meanwhile the hunt for Gaddafi goes on? There is not much

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about where he is in the papers this week. People saying he has

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managed to get out of her Bani Walid, if he was there, and is

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still on the loose. And also there is this naff about Tony Blair's

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helping Saif Al-Islam with his P.H. D! The single worst fact, the now

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infamous photocall of Gaddafi and Tony Blair, apparently Number Ten

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requested the tent because they thought it would look more

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authentic. Odia! Speaking of the old days, you have also picked the

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other Alastair Darling story? a bad day for the Government, the

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previous Government because there is stuff all over the place and

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Alastair Darling has written a shocking but very interesting

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memoir. Alastair Darling, I know he is in the studio, but perhaps the

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only man to emerge with any real credit and his reputation enhanced

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on the last Government. And because you said he was the most boring man,

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this is quietly devastating stuff. And the description of the Gordon

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Brown Cabral was a brutal regime and many of us fell foul of it. It

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makes Colonel Gaddafi's family look like the Waltons. The have picked

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out a story out of the Independent on Sunday? Yes, it is a picture

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being built up about Gordon Brown, about Mangalsen, and now Alastair

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Darling. We have now built up a picture of Gordon Brown, a man

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unfit to hold the highest office. If he put together these pieces are,

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terrible temper, the Budget that was deceitful and he is saying all

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of these men making money out of their memoirs now, why didn't they

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say so at the time. Not all the trouble in the papers is trouble

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for the last Government. The Conservatives having trouble?

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has been an interesting story that has been going this week and it is

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all over the papers today, with various different names coming in.

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You have the head of the National Trust who is dealing in this

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campaign to get some changes. got a lot of stick, they went for

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her? She gives a really good defence of her position in the

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Sunday Telegraph when she talks about how it is a debate, the paper

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has opened it for consultation and it is not about who is right or

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wrong, it is about compromising on something that has clearly upset a

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lot of people. You have this ludicrous position of where the

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Telegraph is now running a campaign on the countryside to prevents too

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much building. This is the party that is meant to be supporting the

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Conservative Party, so we have a flip where the Tories have turned

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against their natural constituents, and Labour has become a party of

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the shires. I will show you this, among us into the radio, farming

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Today has been replaced by builders world. Brilliant cartoon.

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9/11 is coming up next week. Already lots in the papers and no

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doubt plenty more in the week to come about the aftermath of 9/11. A

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lot of focus on the victims. Independent has a nice feature

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today about the children that were left behind. It says there were

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more than 3,000 children under the age of 18 who were left orphaned by

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minor -- 9/11. The average age was 9th. It is a moving idea of it and

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they have this interesting poll that was taken which says about

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35,000 people in 66 different countries have been convicted of

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terrorist charges since 9/11. And 119,000 people were arrested.

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Turkey been the country that convicted the most. It is an

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interesting aftermath on the war on terror. I am flying to New York at

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the weekend and you can easily get a flight this weekend because

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nobody wants to fly on the anniversary. We will come on to why

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you are flying to New York. We have cleverly found a story which

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connects to the reason. Not just shameless plugging, there is a link.

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The papers again, quite a few stories about this new book which

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claims testosterone was to blame for the banking crash. George

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Osborne is hosting a reception at Number 11 for the Matthew Hancock

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who have written a book, Masters at nothing and how the crash will

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happen again unless we understand human nature. They say the

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dominance of men in the financial sector led to too much risk-taking

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and drove the world economy over a cliff. And I think Christine

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Lagarde said, if it had been a lean and sisters and knock the brothers,

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it would never have happened. Next week, coming up the film of my book,

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which is about a woman hedge fund manager in the city. Tonight don't

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know how she does it. In the film Piers Brosnan turns to Sarah

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Jessica Parker and he says, women just make better Investment

:15:05.:15:09.

Managers. So 10 years after the book was written, the issues of

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women in the city, George Osborne now lending his name to a campaign

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to get 30% of board directors to be women. It is timely. And Sarah

:15:19.:15:29.
:15:29.:15:31.

This is also a film topic really. The papers are covered with

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pictures of the beautiful Gwyneth Paltrow, who is promoting her

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latest film, a medical thriller. which everybody knows, a

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catastrophe film about a global virus. Yes, she plays patient zero

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or something and she ends up with hatch of her head being cut off for

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an autopsy. She said she quite likes the gory aspect. Apparently

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all the critics were coming out of the screening and nobody wanted to

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touch their hands. On a more homely or local note you have a story

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about a maternity unit. This is in the Sunday Mirror, who are running

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a campaign for a fair deal for midwives. Babies are dying because

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we have a grave shortage of midwives. This journalist spent 24

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hours in a maternity unit in which five babies died. Midwives are

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horrendously overstretched. If we take as a barometer of our society

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how much care we take of the most vulnerable, babies who are coming

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into the world, mothers are not given enough attention to give

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birth properly, a huge rise in the number of C-sections and anticipate

:16:51.:16:55.

duerls are going wrong. It's a really strong piece. The Government

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came to power promising 4,500 more midwives of whom we have I think

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none. It is more unusual to have a friend who has an uncomplicated

:17:10.:17:17.

birth than one who doesn't. I had an epidural and think couldn't put

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nit properly. At first they put nit properly and I thought, "Thank

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goodness" and I was in agony. Nobody noticed for five hours.

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preparation for your time in Tripoli I would have thought.

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Exactly. Because we only cover serious stories we have to finish

:17:38.:17:48.

with Pippa's bottom, is that right? This is in Bedfordshire, it was the

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Queen's Head, but then it became Pippa's Posterior. But local people

:17:55.:18:01.

were upset about it. A quote from a local resident, "We don't want

:18:01.:18:11.
:18:11.:18:12.

disgraceful pictures of ladies's posterior s on our signs." And this

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Friday is apparently Pippa Middleton's Bottom Appreciation Day.

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This is the show on which you get the news which really matters.

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Thank you both. Now on to the weather. Unfortunately in Britain

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summery means it will be raining frogs, icebergs offshore and

:18:36.:18:40.

plagues of boils. Liam Dutton is in the weather studio with further

:18:41.:18:44.

details. Thank you Andrew. Good morning. We

:18:44.:18:49.

can forget summer for the week ahead. Very autumnal, bringing

:18:49.:18:54.

outbreaks of rain, and the winds picking up. For most it is a cloudy

:18:54.:19:00.

start. Some places turning brighter. Others holding on to rain. Central

:19:00.:19:08.

and eastern England, outbreaks of rain. Brighter for a time in the

:19:08.:19:13.

west. Rain returns to south-west England and Wales and the wind

:19:13.:19:16.

picking up. Feeling cool. Temperatures firmly fixed in the

:19:16.:19:20.

teens. Overnight tonight there'll be another band of rain running

:19:20.:19:24.

north and east across the UK, locally heavy. Showers for Wales

:19:24.:19:28.

and south-western England but not a particularly cold night for many of

:19:28.:19:32.

us. Temperatures staying in double figures. Monday, a breezy if not

:19:32.:19:35.

windy day for England and Wales. There'll be sunshine and showers

:19:35.:19:40.

around too. Those could be heavy, particularly for northern England.

:19:40.:19:43.

But for Scotland and Northern Ireland largalities of cloud, the

:19:43.:19:48.

odd shower there. Largely dry. Temperatures around 17-18.

:19:48.:19:54.

Tuesday, an autumnal day. Wet and windy for all parts of the UK.

:19:54.:20:04.
:20:04.:20:05.

Heavy rain spilling eastwards. The Education Secretary, Michael

:20:05.:20:07.

Gove, once promised a "superb new school in every community". Not

:20:07.:20:10.

something which can be delivered overnight, of course. But the first

:20:10.:20:13.

wave of the new free schools are opening this week. Whether they

:20:13.:20:16.

measure up to Mr Gove's ambitions will take time to judge. Centrally

:20:16.:20:19.

funded, outside local authority control, the schools have a lot of

:20:19.:20:22.

freedom over what they teach and how they teach it. But their

:20:22.:20:24.

critics say free schools are an ideological distraction. Michael

:20:24.:20:31.

Gove is with me now. Lots to talk about on free schools but I know

:20:31.:20:35.

that you silt for ar English seat but you are Scottish and you are a

:20:35.:20:38.

Conservative and therefore I must ask you about this interesting

:20:38.:20:44.

Sunday Telegraph story. Tories set to disband in Scotland, saying that

:20:44.:20:48.

the name Conservative may go in Scotland. Is this something that

:20:48.:20:53.

you recognise or would welcome? Well, it is a while actually since

:20:53.:21:00.

we've had in the same sentence the words exciting intellectual debate

:21:00.:21:03.

and Scottish Conservatives. The Scottish Conservative Party is

:21:03.:21:09.

where the action is now in terms of opposition to the SNP. Why are they

:21:09.:21:13.

abolishing themselves then? Well, inevitably when you've got a

:21:13.:21:17.

newspaper as el gently composed as the Sunday Telegraph they will put

:21:17.:21:21.

a bit of hype into the headline. We are not talking about the

:21:21.:21:26.

disillusion of the Conservatives north of the border. Only one of

:21:26.:21:32.

the leadership candidates, a bright guy, Murdo Fraser, look at the fact

:21:32.:21:38.

that there are more folk that have Conservative values who vote for

:21:38.:21:41.

the Conservative Party. One of the things I've learnt as a politician

:21:41.:21:44.

from Scotland but representing an English constituency is that the

:21:44.:21:47.

reality of devolution means that you should allow the party in

:21:47.:21:51.

Scotland to determine its own destiny. Critically we do need to

:21:51.:21:55.

have an effective force north of the border challenging the danger

:21:55.:21:59.

of separatism that we get from the SNP, and making sure you have a

:22:00.:22:03.

party that's championing high education standards, lower taxes

:22:03.:22:06.

and the broad set of values that the majority of mainstream Scotland

:22:06.:22:11.

would like to see championed in opposition to a high-taxed social

:22:11.:22:15.

assist SNP. So you could see a different party, not the

:22:15.:22:18.

Conservative Party, not the Scottish Conservatives but

:22:18.:22:23.

something called something entirely different in Scotland, with no

:22:23.:22:27.

doubt lots of Scottish Conservatives inside it? It is a

:22:27.:22:32.

decision for the Scottish Conservative Party. What shoot the

:22:32.:22:36.

name be? By definition given it is their decision it would be wrong

:22:36.:22:41.

for me to say, "I'm your fairy godfather and this is the name I'm

:22:41.:22:45.

bestowing on you." On the right of the spectrum of Scotland we are

:22:45.:22:50.

seeing a revival intellectually and individually led by Murdo Fraser

:22:50.:22:53.

and other impressive politicians. I think we should welcome the fact

:22:53.:22:58.

that it's the Conservative Party north of the border as it is the

:22:58.:23:02.

Conservative Party in England where the action is. Is this just

:23:02.:23:07.

rebranding? No, what you are seeing in Scotland is an examination of

:23:07.:23:12.

the policies, we have a majority SNP Government potentially

:23:12.:23:18.

threatening the union, we need action. How does it help to break

:23:18.:23:21.

up the Conservative and Unionist Party then? If you look at what

:23:21.:23:26.

Murdo Fraser is saying, he wants to put the argument for the United

:23:26.:23:29.

Kingdom in the context of the changes that the SNP are attempting

:23:29.:23:33.

to make and in the context of a devolutionary settlement. You've

:23:33.:23:39.

got to ask tough questions about what we can do to better put the

:23:39.:23:42.

message for the majority of people in Scotland who are, as we know,

:23:42.:23:46.

having grown up there, keen to be part of the United Kingdom, keen to

:23:46.:23:50.

make devolution work, but keen, above all, to make sure that

:23:50.:23:54.

economic growth returns and we get the educational reforms in Scotland

:23:54.:24:00.

that we are enjoying in England. You said you weren't the fairy

:24:00.:24:04.

godmother of the Conservatives but you are the godfather of the

:24:04.:24:10.

schools in England. 24 free schools are starting up, a tiny number to

:24:10.:24:16.

start with. Is it the case that these schools are going to be

:24:16.:24:21.

obliged to mirror the social make- up or pattern of children in their

:24:21.:24:25.

area? There will they have to have the same proportion of children on

:24:25.:24:28.

free school meals as other schools around them? No, they are going to

:24:28.:24:34.

do better in most cases. What we've seen so far with free schools is

:24:34.:24:38.

they've been overwhelmingly located in the most disadvantaged areas and

:24:38.:24:42.

in many cases they've exceeded, even though they've only been set

:24:42.:24:48.

up in the last year, the number of children from kiss advantaged homes.

:24:48.:24:53.

Take Toby Young's West London Free School, it has more people eligible

:24:53.:24:58.

for free school meals than the rest of the borough. Nearly two thirds

:24:58.:25:02.

are in Labour areas. More than half are in the poorest parts. Are you

:25:02.:25:06.

going to put rules and limits on them from the centre or are they

:25:06.:25:11.

free to do that? They are free. the freedom aspect of it, they are

:25:11.:25:15.

free to teach broadly speaking what they want, in terms of a wide

:25:15.:25:21.

curriculum and the rest of it. They don't have to have teachers who are

:25:21.:25:28.

actually trained as teachers. What about schools that perhaps go down

:25:28.:25:33.

idealogical routes? What about schools that decide that Darwinism

:25:33.:25:38.

is all nonsense and they are going to teach Cretanism? What about

:25:38.:25:42.

schools that are Islamic and while staying just about within the law

:25:42.:25:48.

preach very hard core Islamist values to union children, are they

:25:48.:25:53.

going be allow? I've been crystal clear we should not have schools

:25:53.:26:00.

set up by extremists, whether Christian or Islamic

:26:00.:26:04.

fundamentalists or outrageous organisations. We've said up to

:26:04.:26:08.

monitor anyone who comes forward with a proposal for extremism. It

:26:08.:26:13.

is more rigorous than any previous Government department has been. In

:26:13.:26:17.

the last Government we had money going to extremist groups, as we

:26:18.:26:24.

now know from a review of the money allocated which was supposed to

:26:24.:26:29.

fight terrorism. Using MI5 I read? Correct. We've been working with

:26:29.:26:32.

people who've been in the intelligence services in order to

:26:32.:26:35.

ensure that there is no-one from the wrong sort of background

:26:35.:26:39.

involved in education. And, shy add, not just with the free schools.

:26:39.:26:42.

There have been one or two disturbing cases with existing

:26:42.:26:46.

state schools where people have been trying to subvert them. I'm

:26:46.:26:49.

passionate about science and I'm determined to make sure our country

:26:49.:26:53.

becomes more cohesive. As a result, I've said that we will not sign any

:26:53.:26:56.

funding agreements with these organisations. More than that, we

:26:56.:26:58.

are reviewing the science curriculum, the National Curriculum

:26:58.:27:08.

overall, to make sure there is no space for the teaching of

:27:08.:27:11.

whackoidal theories and I want money spent on people who are

:27:11.:27:17.

seeking to help the poorest. We've got a school open ing in Bradford,

:27:17.:27:23.

an amazing guy who whose dad was a bus conductor. Children from Muslim

:27:23.:27:28.

and other backgrounds will now have the chance to go to great nuefrts

:27:28.:27:32.

an area deprived of great schooling for far too long. Sounds like a

:27:32.:27:36.

great story but to really change the system you need hundreds of

:27:36.:27:39.

these schools. It is going to be very hard for you to do that if

:27:39.:27:49.
:27:49.:27:49.

people are not able to make profits out of running schools. Are you ide

:27:49.:27:55.

yo logically opposed to people coming into this market to do the

:27:55.:28:01.

same here? If so, why? I'm a practising ma tist not an ideolog.

:28:01.:28:06.

I don't have op opposition to involving any organisation that is

:28:06.:28:09.

going to improve our education. However, we don't need profit-

:28:09.:28:14.

making organisations involved at the moment as we have organisations

:28:14.:28:20.

that are philanthropic. Are there enough people coming into the

:28:20.:28:24.

market fast enough to make change without making a profit? There are

:28:24.:28:28.

24 schools opening after only a year and a bit of our coalition

:28:28.:28:33.

Government. It took Blair, great man though he was, five years to

:28:33.:28:37.

get the same number of academies. Margaret Thatcher and John Major

:28:37.:28:43.

didn't have that number of city technology colleges after 9 years.

:28:43.:28:47.

You've elegantly moved off the question of academies, which are

:28:47.:28:51.

different. It is said that the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Nicholas

:28:51.:28:57.

Clegg, has said he will not accept free schools if there is any kind

:28:57.:29:02.

of profit motive involved and that you have had to back down and allow

:29:02.:29:08.

him that concession. Nick Clegg and I are agreed on this. The

:29:08.:29:11.

Conservative manifesto said we didn't need to have profit at the

:29:11.:29:14.

moment. Nick doesn't believe we need to have profit at the moment

:29:14.:29:18.

and we don't. And in the future? Well, we are in a coalition now and

:29:18.:29:23.

we are working to ensure we get more free schools. We've had more

:29:23.:29:28.

than 280 applications for the next round. I'm expecting we'll have

:29:28.:29:34.

significant numbers of free schools. The real barrier is not profit

:29:34.:29:38.

making. It is planning laws that we have at the moment which restrict

:29:38.:29:41.

the necessary growth, both of the education sector and also of the

:29:42.:29:45.

new homes that we need. That's why the planning reforms that Eric

:29:46.:29:50.

Pickles is putting forward are so important. It is why it is so

:29:50.:29:56.

regrettable that some people can't see the wood for the trees. Shire

:29:56.:30:06.
:30:06.:30:07.

Normally when you have planning issues you have Tories and Lib Dems

:30:07.:30:12.

seeking advantage. Saying we will stand up for this part of the shire.

:30:12.:30:17.

A coalition is a golden opportunity to create the sort of planning

:30:17.:30:20.

reform that means not only can we have more environmentally sensitive

:30:20.:30:25.

planning, we can have more homes and more schools. I must ask you

:30:25.:30:29.

about one of the other things which is discipline in schools. He had

:30:29.:30:33.

said the regime has changed, the world has changed and the notion

:30:34.:30:38.

teachers can exert no physical involvement with children has gone?

:30:38.:30:43.

Totally. But does this mean? For instance a teacher sees two

:30:43.:30:48.

children fighting, now the teacher can go and physically separate the

:30:48.:30:53.

children, I presume? What if one of the children is fighting back, is

:30:53.:30:57.

the teacher allowed to take the child and pushing up against a wall

:30:58.:31:02.

to restrain him? Decides on that kind of thing? The critical

:31:02.:31:07.

question is, I presume you can restrain them at the moment. In all

:31:07.:31:11.

too many cases people don't. saying under the new racing, the

:31:11.:31:15.

teacher will be able to push the children decide? They certainly

:31:15.:31:21.

will. What I'm asking is the exact amount of physical restraint used

:31:21.:31:25.

by the teacher is going to be something argued about. It may end

:31:25.:31:30.

up in court. How will that be resolved? At the moment the problem

:31:30.:31:34.

is that there are far too many occasions teachers believe they

:31:34.:31:39.

should exercise physical restraint and they are not able to. And the

:31:39.:31:44.

natural common sense restraint we would use as an adult, isn't

:31:44.:31:48.

capable of being deployed. The last Government was going to bring in

:31:48.:31:52.

provisions which meant any time there was physical restraint, the

:31:52.:32:00.

hat to be bureaucratic records. Now of course, you cannot engage in a

:32:00.:32:05.

physical abuse which will be criminal in any context. Use common

:32:05.:32:09.

sense is what you're saying? restoration of commonsense. Thanks

:32:09.:32:13.

for joining us this morning. Now to Libya were the new

:32:13.:32:18.

leadership has said they were laid siege to those areas still under

:32:18.:32:22.

control of pro Gaddafi forces and they have given those forces until

:32:22.:32:27.

Saturday to surrender peacefully. Colonel Gaddafi himself remains a

:32:27.:32:37.
:32:37.:32:38.

fugitive and there have been conflicting reports on where he is.

:32:38.:32:42.

We strongly believe Gaddafi and his sons, apart from the two who have

:32:43.:32:48.

already moved to Algeria, all the other sons are still in Libya. And

:32:48.:32:52.

they are in that region between Sirte and sat there in the south.

:32:52.:32:57.

What happens if and when he is caught? Will it be the Libyans

:32:57.:33:01.

putting him on trial in Libya or will the international criminal

:33:01.:33:06.

court be involved possibly in Libya as well? Our understanding is the

:33:06.:33:10.

ICC will only put Colonel Gaddafi on trial for crimes committed over

:33:10.:33:15.

the last six months. As we know, he is responsible for horrific

:33:15.:33:22.

catalogue of crimes committed over the last 42 years, which he stood -

:33:22.:33:26.

- should stand for an answer for. He can only answer for those in a

:33:26.:33:32.

proper trial in Libya itself. Colonel Gaddafi and his sums

:33:32.:33:37.

offered to give up now, how would the transitional council react? If

:33:37.:33:42.

he wanted safe passage to another country for instance, is that kind

:33:42.:33:46.

of deal still available or has the time passed? I think the time has

:33:46.:33:51.

passed for that. This was offered to him months ago. Three or four

:33:51.:33:56.

months ago, and he did not take it up. Also it is going to be

:33:56.:34:00.

difficult for him and his sons to find a safe haven or a country who

:34:00.:34:06.

will take them. Neighbouring countries like Algeria, Chad, have

:34:06.:34:10.

made it clear they won't allow Gaddafi or his sons or any of his

:34:10.:34:14.

top aides to come into their countries. And if they do they will

:34:14.:34:23.

probably hand them over. The ICC has issued two warrant arrests for

:34:23.:34:30.

his son, Saif Al-Islam, Colonel Gaddafi and one of his top aides.

:34:30.:34:34.

If they are apprehended they will be arrested and treated humanely.

:34:34.:34:39.

They will be kept safe and they will have to face a trial an answer

:34:39.:34:44.

for all of the crimes they have been responsible for. How would a

:34:44.:34:47.

Libyan court do with Colonel Gaddafi, would he be jailed or

:34:47.:34:52.

would he be executed if he was found guilty? That would be up to a

:34:52.:34:57.

court in due time, but I can us your youth the court will be just

:34:57.:35:01.

and will meet all international standards from human rights

:35:01.:35:05.

organisations and other organisations and the UN will be

:35:05.:35:09.

allowed to monitor things. It will be a fair trial, something Colonel

:35:09.:35:13.

Gaddafi has never offered any Libyans who criticised him over the

:35:13.:35:18.

last 42 years. There are many problems for the newly Libyan

:35:18.:35:21.

authorities, not least getting money back into people's hands,

:35:21.:35:27.

getting money back into the banks. How is it going? It is going quite

:35:27.:35:33.

well, the crucial decisions have been made and requested the need to

:35:33.:35:38.

on freeze assets and pay money back so they can start spending it on

:35:38.:35:44.

salaries, food, fuel, health care, medicine, humanitarian aid. Britain

:35:44.:35:51.

have been very helpful. Britain started releasing a total sum of

:35:51.:35:54.

1.86 billion of Libyan currency which it held back six months ago

:35:54.:35:59.

and did not send to Colonel Gaddafi, wisely. Now Britain has already

:35:59.:36:03.

started sending this to Libyan currency and this is going to be

:36:03.:36:09.

very, very handy. It is already in circulation in the Libyan central

:36:09.:36:13.

bank and it will be used to pay salaries straight away. There has

:36:13.:36:17.

been a bit of confusion about whether countries which have helped

:36:17.:36:21.

overthrow Gaddafi like France and Britain will get special

:36:21.:36:24.

preferential deals when it comes to oil, or whether it will be an open

:36:24.:36:31.

and transparent process. Can you clear up that confusion? Andrew,

:36:31.:36:35.

the new Libya is going to be a Democratic Libya. It is going to be

:36:35.:36:40.

all about transparency, accountability and fur practice and

:36:40.:36:47.

competitiveness. In that sense, any contracts will be awarded based on

:36:47.:36:50.

transparent processes and mechanisms. That means any

:36:51.:36:54.

contracts it shall be awarded based on merit and competitiveness and

:36:54.:37:00.

not on any political favouritism. Finally, you have set out a clear

:37:00.:37:04.

timetable for the move to Democratic elections, but Libya has

:37:04.:37:09.

only had one election in its history. It does not have a history

:37:09.:37:13.

of Democratic structures and political parties. How will you be

:37:13.:37:18.

able to create those parties and those structures? Obviously, people

:37:18.:37:24.

will have to be educated and educate themselves very quickly. We

:37:24.:37:27.

need a Democratic culture to start taking shape and take root. But his

:37:28.:37:33.

true, for the last 42 years we never had political parties. Libya

:37:33.:37:37.

has never experienced voting, they don't know what a ballot-box looks

:37:37.:37:43.

like. We have a transition period of 20 months and we think it is

:37:43.:37:47.

sufficient to allow people to understand how they can set up

:37:47.:37:53.

political parties and debate and resolve things peacefully. I think

:37:53.:37:58.

people are looking forward to practise this right. Political

:37:58.:38:02.

participation has been denied to Libyans for a long time. Everybody

:38:02.:38:06.

is keen and eager to participate in the political process through

:38:06.:38:11.

peaceful means and that is through elections and voting and so on.

:38:11.:38:16.

have a very busy and exciting time ahead, thanks for joining us.

:38:16.:38:21.

The latest piece in the jigsaw of Labour memoirs arrives with the

:38:21.:38:25.

publication in the Sunday Times of the first official extract of

:38:25.:38:30.

Alastair Darling's time as it Chancellor of the Exchequer. But

:38:30.:38:35.

his 1000 days as Chancellor were to prove unimaginably testing as he

:38:35.:38:39.

bought the fires of the banking crisis and the recession. And then

:38:39.:38:45.

there was Gordon Brown as well, which the relationship became so

:38:45.:38:51.

fraught which led to dysfunction in the Government at the top. Alastair

:38:51.:38:55.

Darling joins me now. Before we talk about the book directly, the

:38:55.:38:59.

other Libyan related story in the papers are allegations the Labour

:38:59.:39:03.

Government, which you are part of at the time, was doing some secret

:39:03.:39:07.

deal with Colonel Gaddafi to free the Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset

:39:07.:39:11.

Ali al-Megrahi. That has caused an enormous international storm, as

:39:11.:39:18.

you know. It is shown the Government must have been worried

:39:18.:39:23.

about Colonel Gaddafi's reaction if he wasn't freed. Although we

:39:23.:39:26.

haven't got any clear evidence anything particular happened

:39:26.:39:32.

afterwards. What is your view of this? There is no doubt, from the

:39:32.:39:36.

British Government's point of view, we wanted to bring Gaddafi in from

:39:36.:39:40.

the cold. At that time it was thought it was going to be possible.

:39:40.:39:46.

There was no doubt Gaddafi wanted Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi out. But

:39:46.:39:49.

this hangs on the willingness of the British Labour Government doing

:39:49.:39:54.

a deal with a Scottish Nationalist Government and anyone who knows

:39:54.:39:57.

anything about Scottish politics will know there is such a visceral

:39:57.:40:02.

dislike between the two. The idea there was some collaboration is

:40:02.:40:08.

nonsense. It is true to say the British Government wanted

:40:08.:40:14.

Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi at. It is true to say Alex Salmond fancied AA

:40:14.:40:17.

wander onto the international stage. The whole thing ended in tears,

:40:17.:40:21.

Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi is still with us and was and at death's door.

:40:21.:40:25.

There is no doubt at the time, I can understand there was no other

:40:25.:40:30.

way to try to bring Gaddafi under control. They were trying to bring

:40:30.:40:35.

him in from the cold. It did not work, and it now looks finished.

:40:36.:40:38.

Talking about warm relationships between the Scottish politicians

:40:38.:40:44.

takes us on to your own books. The picture you portrayed over the

:40:44.:40:48.

relationship between yourself and Gordon Brown, you had known him for

:40:48.:40:52.

a very long time but it started in a chilly way and got worse very

:40:52.:40:58.

fast, to the point where I think in your 2009 Budget, days before you

:40:58.:41:02.

were due to stand up and House of Commons, you did not have a budget?

:41:02.:41:06.

First of all this book is essentially about the banking

:41:06.:41:13.

crisis which led to an economic crisis and I wanted to describe how

:41:13.:41:17.

we handle that. But there is a political overlay, because the

:41:17.:41:21.

relationship between myself and Gordon got progressively worse. In

:41:21.:41:26.

2009 we had this argument about what you do about the deficit. But

:41:26.:41:30.

I could not tell the story without having to explain. The object

:41:30.:41:34.

lesson here is, for any Government to operate effectively, there has

:41:34.:41:38.

to be complete unity at the top, especially between the Chancellor

:41:38.:41:43.

and the Prime Minister. It isn't the first relationship that went

:41:43.:41:46.

wrong, Margaret Thatcher and Nigel Lawson. These things have happened

:41:46.:41:52.

before. This is crucial because you and he had a fundamental

:41:52.:41:59.

disagreement about the seriousness of the situation? He was livid

:41:59.:42:03.

about use saying it was the worst recession in 60 years. It wasn't

:42:03.:42:06.

just a disagreement, it was going to affect everything in terms of

:42:06.:42:11.

your future planning on tax, spending on the rest of it?

:42:11.:42:18.

frustration is, we could have got through this, we could have charted

:42:18.:42:22.

a political way through it. Actually, we did get some kudos

:42:22.:42:25.

from the fact we managed to stop the banking system from collapsing.

:42:25.:42:30.

We could have dealt with the recession. BM point is, you have

:42:30.:42:34.

done all this, you have to get it your borrowing down. Ignoring the

:42:34.:42:38.

problem is as bad as the present Government's policy which seems to

:42:38.:42:42.

be squeezing the life out of the economy. We could have come through

:42:42.:42:48.

this, we didn't. Why not? Because there was a disagreement at the

:42:48.:42:53.

very top. I was at one with Gordon on this, we have to stop the

:42:53.:42:57.

banking system collapsing we had to put money into the economy. The

:42:57.:43:04.

results of course, like any other economy like -- that has high

:43:04.:43:08.

levels of borrowing, the disagreement was how to get it back

:43:08.:43:13.

down. I thought we could halve it over a four year period. We have to

:43:13.:43:19.

say to people this is what we will be doing less, and he disagreed.

:43:19.:43:22.

only such what you call the forces of hell on you? That was after my

:43:22.:43:28.

interview with the Guardian three years ago. Making it clear that

:43:28.:43:34.

there was this disagreement, how unpleasant was that? I relish

:43:34.:43:38.

attacking Tories, and then attacking me, it is politics. But

:43:38.:43:42.

when you're a lot are doing it to you, it is not new in politics but

:43:42.:43:46.

it left a mark on me you cannot erase. Gordon Brown wouldn't

:43:46.:43:50.

actually have the argument with you face-to-face? We had lots of

:43:50.:43:57.

arguments, very healthy arguments. That's fine, what I do mind it is

:43:57.:44:02.

when you have got people briefing all over the place that you have

:44:02.:44:06.

made a fool of yourself, your days are numbered and you have the

:44:06.:44:09.

judgment wrong. Describe the decision-making system, or the lack

:44:09.:44:13.

of a system when you were trying to get agreement on what you both

:44:14.:44:20.

thought about the economy and way you're going? As I said, throughout

:44:20.:44:25.

2008 argues parted. Everything eyesore into 1008. It too was

:44:25.:44:29.

heading for a meltdown. The banking system was freezing up. If that

:44:29.:44:33.

happens, it is only a matter of time before the economy goes as

:44:33.:44:37.

well. It was happening all over the world. He took the view I was being

:44:37.:44:42.

too cautious. I am naturally cautious. Every Treasury in the

:44:42.:44:46.

world is cautious. He thought the recession would be over in six

:44:46.:44:50.

months? He took the view I had been misled by the advice I had received

:44:50.:44:58.

and I was exaggerating it. The Guardian was one of three, ice at

:44:58.:45:04.

the same thing. There was a disagreement then. We were pretty

:45:04.:45:08.

much at one on the banking crisis. What happened? In practical terms

:45:08.:45:12.

what happened? He would expect if there was a disagreement between

:45:12.:45:15.

the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, the Cabinet would sit

:45:15.:45:19.

down, thrash through these things I knew would come as a collective

:45:19.:45:28.

Government to a decision? It wasn't There is history here, in that when

:45:28.:45:32.

Tony Blair became the leader in the 1990s, and the Labour had been out

:45:32.:45:38.

of power for a long, long time, we badly needed some strong Government,

:45:38.:45:42.

almost dictatorship, and that's what we got. Gordon and Tony

:45:42.:45:44.

together reformed the Labour Party, but unfortunately as the Government

:45:44.:45:50.

went on, that decision-making process changed. As I say in the

:45:50.:45:55.

book, there are a number of issues, whether it was on tuition fees,

:45:56.:45:59.

conflicts and so on, where a Cabinet discussion would have

:45:59.:46:09.

benefited it. This book is full of mea culpas. One big one is I should

:46:09.:46:15.

have forced this issue on to the Cabinet table. This was all done by

:46:15.:46:22.

early morning or late-evening ad hoc meetings which ended quickly.

:46:22.:46:28.

Indeed. I'm not interested in the sort of kiss and tell political

:46:28.:46:33.

story. It is incidental to my story. The far bigger picture, and the one

:46:33.:46:36.

where I think any political party needs to draw a lesson, you need to

:46:36.:46:41.

be united at the top but you also need a credible economic policy. If

:46:41.:46:45.

you don't have a credible economic policy you were simply not at the

:46:45.:46:50.

races. Our problem was it was so blindingly obvious to the outside

:46:50.:46:55.

world that the two of us, Gordon and I, were at odds, that it

:46:55.:47:01.

hampered things. I have to say that, collectively, you weren't fit to

:47:01.:47:06.

govern. I think we could have done a being job than we did. Can I pick

:47:06.:47:16.

up on the "we" there. Everybody is talking about Gordon and yet the

:47:16.:47:20.

rest of you were grown up, adult, powerful political players why. Did

:47:20.:47:26.

you not go in, not necessarily and get rid of him but say, "You've got

:47:26.:47:30.

to change, you can't carry on like this?" Was he fright something

:47:30.:47:35.

There were lots of discussions like that. With limb? You have a

:47:35.:47:42.

discussion with somebody with a tempestous relationship and they

:47:42.:47:46.

say they'll change but two days later you are back where you were.

:47:46.:47:50.

If you want the criticise us correct collectively, perhaps we

:47:50.:47:55.

should have done something. As I say in the book, why did I do it?

:47:55.:47:59.

I'm afraid for me, despite everything, and if Gordon is

:47:59.:48:06.

listening to this, he may find this difficult to believe, but I had a

:48:06.:48:11.

loyalty to him, and we go back a long, long way. This is very

:48:11.:48:17.

unpleasant. Frankly for the wider audience, and I hope people when

:48:17.:48:21.

they read the book will think of the bigger issues still with us

:48:21.:48:26.

today. I want to talk about the Governor of the Bank of England,

:48:26.:48:31.

Mervyn King. You considered at one point not reappointing him as

:48:31.:48:35.

Governor and you felt that his understanding of what was going on

:48:35.:48:40.

in some of the big banks was poor? Back in 2007 when Northern Rock hit

:48:40.:48:44.

us, there were two problems with the Bank of England. One, I don't

:48:44.:48:48.

think the bank had anywhere near an adequate understanding of what was

:48:48.:48:54.

going on in the banking system, despite the fact it had

:48:54.:49:02.

responsibility and had done since 1997. All energy went on the

:49:02.:49:06.

monetary policy side. I disagreed with what I thought needed to be

:49:06.:49:10.

done. I felt it essential to get money into the system to stop it

:49:10.:49:16.

freezing. He was more concernedant solvency of the banks, which of

:49:16.:49:21.

course the two are related. We did not deal with this as effectively

:49:21.:49:26.

as we should. Had there been a better candidate you would have

:49:26.:49:30.

dealt with it wouldn't you? Later on clearly you had disagreements

:49:30.:49:35.

about a macro policy and you felt he had come pretty close to

:49:35.:49:39.

crossing the line and coming out on the Conservative side of the

:49:39.:49:44.

argument over tax and spend. bigger complaint was more about

:49:44.:49:47.

what he was saying about the regulation of the banks, which was

:49:47.:49:51.

the Conservative policy not the Government's policy. I do think

:49:51.:49:55.

governors of the bank need to be terrible before they openly cross

:49:56.:50:01.

the Government of the day. He could see we were going and he felt

:50:01.:50:09.

emboldened, I think, to say what he wanted. This is a live topic at the

:50:09.:50:13.

moment. There seems to be a big argument inside the coalition about

:50:13.:50:17.

whether or not to enforce the break-up of the banks into retail

:50:17.:50:22.

banks and investment banks. What do you think should be happening now?

:50:22.:50:27.

Well, the whole basis on which this argument is being conducted is

:50:27.:50:31.

false. The idea that you could let an investment bank collapse and

:50:31.:50:36.

walk away from it in times of crisis is nonsense. That's what the

:50:36.:50:41.

American Government did with Lehman Brothers and that presip at a timed

:50:42.:50:48.

the worst crisis ever -- precipitated the worst crisis ever

:50:48.:50:54.

seen. Sit wrong for Vince Cable to be pressing for the break-up of

:50:54.:50:58.

banks? If it is about banking activities that's a useful tool. It

:50:58.:51:02.

is not going to stop it happening again. If you are going to make

:51:02.:51:07.

those changes in ring-fences, frankly you should get on with it

:51:07.:51:14.

and not leave it until 019. If you impose it now on banks, then you

:51:14.:51:20.

will so hit bank profits that you endanger what stultering economic

:51:20.:51:27.

recovery you've got. This isn't going to stop the problem, it will

:51:27.:51:31.

be a useful tool. Secondly, anything you do in rorging banks at

:51:31.:51:34.

the same time as it will require them to hold more capital and so on,

:51:34.:51:38.

lit mean there is less money to lend. You need to be aware of that.

:51:38.:51:43.

The third thing, again I mentioned this in my book, we are the world's

:51:43.:51:49.

largest financial centre. That brings huge risks but huge

:51:49.:51:52.

opportunities. We need to be careful about doing something which

:51:52.:51:56.

doesn't solve the problems that we face, and then the double whammy is

:51:56.:52:00.

you start losing banks because they won't go tomorrow morning or

:52:00.:52:03.

anything like that but they start moving away. And the Bank of

:52:03.:52:07.

England, you say, is an old- fashioned autocratic institution

:52:08.:52:12.

which badly needs radical reform? Yes, the present Government wants

:52:12.:52:14.

to make the Bank of England not just responsible for interest rates

:52:14.:52:19.

but for the supervision of banks. Where its track record is mixed.

:52:19.:52:23.

And also it has got this overall responsibility for trying to iron

:52:23.:52:29.

out if peaks and troughs of the economic cycle. That's a lot of

:52:29.:52:34.

things to invest in one person. I think the governance of the Bank of

:52:34.:52:37.

England needs to change. Legislation needs be reconstruct

:52:37.:52:42.

sod the Governor has to be the first among equals. You need a

:52:42.:52:51.

board of directors. Not an advisory economy. Not a court. It is an

:52:51.:52:55.

adornment in every sense. If you are going to do this reform, for

:52:55.:53:00.

goodness sake do it properly. do you think about the current

:53:00.:53:04.

economic outlook? Bad news from America at the moment. I'm very

:53:05.:53:09.

pessimistic now. Our economy was growing for several months after we

:53:09.:53:12.

left office. I think the present Government's policy of almost

:53:12.:53:16.

squeezing the life out of the economy is going to be very bad for

:53:16.:53:20.

us, especially when you look at what's happening in Europe, where

:53:20.:53:25.

you have the same austerity approach imposed on Europe. The

:53:25.:53:33.

picture in America, as you say, is very missed. We have to rediscover

:53:33.:53:41.

the spirit of 2009, where countries have the meet urgently, yes to get

:53:41.:53:48.

your deficits down, but for goodness seek we need growth.

:53:48.:53:51.

you still speak to Gordon Brown very much? Of course, and I hope

:53:51.:53:54.

we'll continue to speak to each other. I'm not interested in living

:53:54.:53:59.

in the past. Indeed. Alistair Darling, thank you for joining us.

:53:59.:54:03.

And now over to Naga for the news headlines. Alistair Darling has

:54:03.:54:06.

said there was a permanent air of chaos and crisis when Gordon Brown

:54:06.:54:11.

was Prime Minister. Speaking on this programme he referred to a

:54:11.:54:15.

deeply unpleasant atmosphere in Government and said perhaps he and

:54:15.:54:18.

other Cabinet members should have done something about Mr Brown's

:54:18.:54:22.

leadership. The next news on BBC One is at

:54:22.:54:32.
:54:32.:54:32.

midday. MPs say independent counselling

:54:32.:54:35.

would cut the number of women having terminations. Should we make

:54:35.:54:43.

it harder to get an abortion. Stand-off at Dale Farm. Is evicting

:54:43.:54:53.
:54:53.:54:57.

Now, Snow Patrol are one of the most successful British rock bands

:54:57.:55:00.

of the past decade. Their albums sell millions of copies here and

:55:00.:55:04.

all over the world, and their music has featured on the soundtracks of

:55:04.:55:06.

several popular American TV series. Not bad, considering they once

:55:06.:55:10.

played a gig to just 18 people. We're going to hear the first live

:55:10.:55:12.

TV performance of the new single from their sixth album, Fallen

:55:12.:55:15.

Empires, in a moment. But first, a quick word with their frontman,

:55:15.:55:21.

Gary Lightbody. You started off at a time when you could still get

:55:21.:55:25.

money from the big record companies and you could sell albums. It's a

:55:25.:55:27.

difficulty world now. What about the young bands trying to make it,

:55:28.:55:32.

as you did? We started off at a time when yes it was possible to

:55:32.:55:37.

make money from music, but we didn't for a decade. So we were

:55:37.:55:43.

struggling. Right now, we had two chances. We had a first career of

:55:43.:55:51.

ten years of playing to 18 people. In some very shady places. And we

:55:51.:55:55.

had a second career when we released Final Straw and it took

:55:55.:56:02.

off for us. Not too many people get two bites of the cherry. This is a

:56:02.:56:06.

slightly more retro feel to the album, is that right? Not so much.

:56:06.:56:15.

We've got, we've let our electronic side out and the songs are bigger

:56:15.:56:21.

and bolder. This is called Calling Out In The Dark? It is a tribute to

:56:21.:56:24.

Alistair Darling, which we'll be hearing in a second.

:56:24.:56:27.

That's almost it for this morning. Thanks to all my guests. Do join me

:56:27.:56:30.

again at the same time next week, when it's the 10th anniversary of

:56:30.:56:34.

9/11. We'll be reflecting on that event, and all that flowed from it.

:56:34.:56:37.

But we leave you now with Snow Patrol and their new single,

:56:37.:56:46.

"Calling Out in the Dark". Goodbye. # It's like we just can't help

:56:46.:56:49.

ourselves. # 'Cause we don't know how to back

:56:49.:56:59.
:56:59.:56:59.

down. # We were called out to the streets.

:56:59.:57:07.

# We were called out into the towns. # And how the heavens, they opened

:57:07.:57:17.
:57:17.:57:39.

# Like arms of dazzling gold. # With our rain-washed histories.

:57:39.:57:41.

# This is your life, this is your time.

:57:41.:57:43.

# We are listening and we're not blind.

:57:43.:57:53.
:57:53.:58:09.

# This is your life, this is your # I was called out in the dark.

:58:09.:58:13.

# By a choir of beautiful cheats. # And as the kids took back the

:58:13.:58:15.

parks. # You and I were left with the

:58:15.:58:25.
:58:25.:58:36.

streets. # Show me now, show me the arms

:58:36.:58:39.

aloft. # Every eye trained on a different

:58:39.:58:43.

star. # This magic, this drunken

:58:43.:58:51.

semaphore. # And I-I-I-I.

:58:51.:58:53.

# We are listening, and we're not blind.

:58:53.:58:56.

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