Browse content similar to 04/09/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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He Good morning. It is great to be back. I gather nothing happened in | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
August, locally. This morning, the bad news is of my guests include | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
the man twice voted, he reminds us, Britain's most boring politician. | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
The good news is, after what he has written about life in Gordon | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
Brown's Government, Alastair Darling won't be winning that title | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
this year. The newspapers are bubbling about the coalition | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
Government, about Libya and connections with Colonel Gaddafi. | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
To review them I am joined by the Times Defence Editor Deborah Haynes | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
and the Daily Telegraph novelist Alison Pearson. Another award | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
received by Alastair Darling was a survivor of the year. His account | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
of the last years of the Labour Government is one of exasperation | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
and private fury about the behaviour of Gordon Brown. But also | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
of future decisions taken as Britain struggled to cope with the | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
breakdown in the banks and the recession. We will hear about his | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
book and what he thinks about the economy now on the Bank of | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
England's future. We will hear from senior representative of Lydia's | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
transitional council to make sure the country does not descend into | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
the kind of chaos that engulfed Iraq after the fall of that regime. | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
And about Colonel Gaddafi's fate if and when he is caught. Some | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
children it will be heading for the very first 24, free schools amid | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
stories of the coalition arguments about them. Michael Gove, the | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
Education Secretary is here to talk about free schools, academies and | :02:24. | :02:33. | |
disciplined. Finally, music. # We are listening and we are not | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
blind. Born in Dundee and followed around | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
the world, Snow Patrol are here with their latest album. | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
Before that, the news. The former Chancellor of the | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
Exchequer, Alastair Darling has said there was a permanent air of | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
chaos and crisis when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister. In extracts | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
from his memoirs published in the Sunday Times, he accuses Mr Brown | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
of sometimes appalling behaviour during the banking crisis. | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
It was a relationship strained beyond breaking point, that has | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
left the former Chancellor scarred. That is according to Alastair | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
Darling, who describes how difficult his dealings were with | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
Gordon Brown in a new memoir, serialised in the Sunday Times. | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
Alastair Darling does not hold back in his denunciation of the former | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
Prime Minister. He accuses Gordon Brown of sometimes appalling | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
behaviour during the three years they grappled with the banking | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
crisis. Mr Darling says at first Gordon Brown believed the economy | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
would recover within six months and did not trust his Chancellor's | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
advice. He describes the dysfunctional Downing Street and | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
calls it a brutal regime. In 2009 Gordon Brown tried to replace him | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
with Ed Balls which resulted in angry exchanges with Mr Dorrell | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
refused to be reshuffled within the Cabinet. Alastair Darling | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
criticises the banks for their ingratitude an air of disdain after | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
they were bailed out by the Government. For Labour's new | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
leadership, this the memoir is an awkward reminder of the recent | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
poisonous past. Gordon Brown could not be reached for comment. | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
The front-runner for the leadership of the Scottish Conservative says | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
he will disband the party in Scotland if he wins the contest. Mr | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
Fraser says the Conservatives carry too much baggage and wants to set | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
up a new centre-right party to attract more voters. | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
Libyan fighters loyal to the National Transitional Council are | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
preparing to advance on a desert town other Bani Walid, one of the | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
last strongholds of pro Gaddafi forces. They have issued an | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
ultimatum for them to surrender or face an attack. Thousands of | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
fighters are said to be moving in from three sides and its is thought | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
many of the family may have fled through Bani Walid. | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
As many as 400,000 people have joined demonstrations across his | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
round in protest at the high cost of living. The largest protest is | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
in Tel Aviv. The protesters have been demanding cheaper housing, tax | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
cuts and improved access to free education. | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the former head of the International Monetary | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
Fund has a right back in France. He was once seen as a possible | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
contender for the French presidency, and has been in the United States | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
since May, when he was accused of attempting to rape a hotel | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
chambermaid. The charges were dropped but he faces a sexual | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
assault charge in France. That all from me for now and I'll | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
be back just before 10 am with the headlines. | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
The front pages as expected. The The front pages as expected. The | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
Mail on Sunday, secret files, Labour lied over Gaddafi. Lots of | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
files turning up in Tripoli at the moment. People poring over them. | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
The Sunday Times has the Alastair Darling, Gordon Brown's story. | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
Browns of the world's worst financial crisis would last only | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
six months. Another Libyan related stories saying MI5 espied on Libyan | :06:14. | :06:21. | |
torture victims and dissidence against Gaddafi. Speaking of | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
Scotland, the Sunday Telegraph, interesting story. Tory set to | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
disband in Scotland. They are going to get rid of the name, or one of | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
the potential leader said they should. They will call themselves | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
the Jacobites, maybe it is just rebranding? | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
New coalition splits over schools, banks and health, as well. A lot | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
about coalition problems in the papers this morning, including in | :06:46. | :06:53. | |
the observed there. Baroness Williams plunges NHS reforms into | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
fierce turmoil. As promised, Deborah Haynes is here | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
and Alison Pearson is here. A lot to talk about and I think we will | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
start with a bit of Tripoli, Libya? The two papers that are leading the | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
way this morning on the latest from Libya, are the Sunday Times and the | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
Daily Mail. -- Sunday Mail. They have managed to find a bunch of | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
documents that show the cosy relationship the British Government | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
had it with the previous regime, which will prove embarrassing | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
reading, given what has happened. Let's talk about this. One of the | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
allegations is Abdelbaset Ali al- Megrahi, the Lockerbie bomber was | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
got out of jail by the Labour Government because they were | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
worried about what Colonel Gaddafi was going to do if they didn't. | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
From what I have read there is lots of worrying e-mails and letters | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
from British diplomats and others to the Government saying we are | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
worried about Gaddafi in this issue. But there is nothing hard coming | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
back from the British Government at that time saying, OK let him out | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
then? That is the smoking gun and nobody has found by yet. I imagine | :08:05. | :08:12. | |
it is what people are looking for right now. I am sure the Government | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
will have sent somebody in encase if it does exist, it does not get | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
fan. Bill looks like there was lots of cosy help for the regime? To a | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
civilian it is deeply compromising and sordid. We have got the SAS who | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
had been training the people in Libya, is that right? Now going | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
back to train the other people. They were our friends, now they are | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
our enemies, they were our enemies, now they are friends. That was her | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
HND's policy at the time. What is interesting is the revelations in | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
the UK, the secret intelligence services, MI5 passed on names of | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
dissidents in the UK who are now the ones leading this revolution | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
and will be leading the country. It does smack a bit of hypocrisy, but | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
it is just politics. Pity grim. We passed on names of dissidents who | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
now we will be supporting RS the new leaders. They will count the | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
fact we supported them over the fact we snitched on them, I don't | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
know? Meanwhile the hunt for Gaddafi goes on? There is not much | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
about where he is in the papers this week. People saying he has | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
managed to get out of her Bani Walid, if he was there, and is | :09:32. | :09:42. | |
still on the loose. And also there is this naff about Tony Blair's | :09:42. | :09:50. | |
helping Saif Al-Islam with his P.H. D! The single worst fact, the now | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
infamous photocall of Gaddafi and Tony Blair, apparently Number Ten | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
requested the tent because they thought it would look more | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
authentic. Odia! Speaking of the old days, you have also picked the | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
other Alastair Darling story? a bad day for the Government, the | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
previous Government because there is stuff all over the place and | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
Alastair Darling has written a shocking but very interesting | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
memoir. Alastair Darling, I know he is in the studio, but perhaps the | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
only man to emerge with any real credit and his reputation enhanced | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
on the last Government. And because you said he was the most boring man, | :10:31. | :10:38. | |
this is quietly devastating stuff. And the description of the Gordon | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
Brown Cabral was a brutal regime and many of us fell foul of it. It | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
makes Colonel Gaddafi's family look like the Waltons. The have picked | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
out a story out of the Independent on Sunday? Yes, it is a picture | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
being built up about Gordon Brown, about Mangalsen, and now Alastair | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
Darling. We have now built up a picture of Gordon Brown, a man | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
unfit to hold the highest office. If he put together these pieces are, | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
terrible temper, the Budget that was deceitful and he is saying all | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
of these men making money out of their memoirs now, why didn't they | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
say so at the time. Not all the trouble in the papers is trouble | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
for the last Government. The Conservatives having trouble? | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
has been an interesting story that has been going this week and it is | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
all over the papers today, with various different names coming in. | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
You have the head of the National Trust who is dealing in this | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
campaign to get some changes. got a lot of stick, they went for | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
her? She gives a really good defence of her position in the | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
Sunday Telegraph when she talks about how it is a debate, the paper | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
has opened it for consultation and it is not about who is right or | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
wrong, it is about compromising on something that has clearly upset a | :12:11. | :12:18. | |
lot of people. You have this ludicrous position of where the | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
Telegraph is now running a campaign on the countryside to prevents too | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
much building. This is the party that is meant to be supporting the | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
Conservative Party, so we have a flip where the Tories have turned | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
against their natural constituents, and Labour has become a party of | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
the shires. I will show you this, among us into the radio, farming | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
Today has been replaced by builders world. Brilliant cartoon. | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
9/11 is coming up next week. Already lots in the papers and no | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
doubt plenty more in the week to come about the aftermath of 9/11. A | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
lot of focus on the victims. Independent has a nice feature | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
today about the children that were left behind. It says there were | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
more than 3,000 children under the age of 18 who were left orphaned by | :13:16. | :13:23. | |
minor -- 9/11. The average age was 9th. It is a moving idea of it and | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
they have this interesting poll that was taken which says about | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
35,000 people in 66 different countries have been convicted of | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
terrorist charges since 9/11. And 119,000 people were arrested. | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
Turkey been the country that convicted the most. It is an | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
interesting aftermath on the war on terror. I am flying to New York at | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
the weekend and you can easily get a flight this weekend because | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
nobody wants to fly on the anniversary. We will come on to why | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
you are flying to New York. We have cleverly found a story which | :14:01. | :14:08. | |
connects to the reason. Not just shameless plugging, there is a link. | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
The papers again, quite a few stories about this new book which | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
claims testosterone was to blame for the banking crash. George | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
Osborne is hosting a reception at Number 11 for the Matthew Hancock | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
who have written a book, Masters at nothing and how the crash will | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
happen again unless we understand human nature. They say the | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
dominance of men in the financial sector led to too much risk-taking | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
and drove the world economy over a cliff. And I think Christine | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
Lagarde said, if it had been a lean and sisters and knock the brothers, | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
it would never have happened. Next week, coming up the film of my book, | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
which is about a woman hedge fund manager in the city. Tonight don't | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
know how she does it. In the film Piers Brosnan turns to Sarah | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
Jessica Parker and he says, women just make better Investment | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
Managers. So 10 years after the book was written, the issues of | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
women in the city, George Osborne now lending his name to a campaign | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
to get 30% of board directors to be women. It is timely. And Sarah | :15:19. | :15:29. | |
:15:29. | :15:31. | ||
This is also a film topic really. The papers are covered with | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
pictures of the beautiful Gwyneth Paltrow, who is promoting her | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
latest film, a medical thriller. which everybody knows, a | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
catastrophe film about a global virus. Yes, she plays patient zero | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
or something and she ends up with hatch of her head being cut off for | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
an autopsy. She said she quite likes the gory aspect. Apparently | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
all the critics were coming out of the screening and nobody wanted to | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
touch their hands. On a more homely or local note you have a story | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
about a maternity unit. This is in the Sunday Mirror, who are running | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
a campaign for a fair deal for midwives. Babies are dying because | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
we have a grave shortage of midwives. This journalist spent 24 | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
hours in a maternity unit in which five babies died. Midwives are | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
horrendously overstretched. If we take as a barometer of our society | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
how much care we take of the most vulnerable, babies who are coming | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
into the world, mothers are not given enough attention to give | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
birth properly, a huge rise in the number of C-sections and anticipate | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
duerls are going wrong. It's a really strong piece. The Government | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
came to power promising 4,500 more midwives of whom we have I think | :17:01. | :17:10. | |
none. It is more unusual to have a friend who has an uncomplicated | :17:10. | :17:17. | |
birth than one who doesn't. I had an epidural and think couldn't put | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
nit properly. At first they put nit properly and I thought, "Thank | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
goodness" and I was in agony. Nobody noticed for five hours. | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
preparation for your time in Tripoli I would have thought. | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
Exactly. Because we only cover serious stories we have to finish | :17:38. | :17:48. | |
with Pippa's bottom, is that right? This is in Bedfordshire, it was the | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
Queen's Head, but then it became Pippa's Posterior. But local people | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
were upset about it. A quote from a local resident, "We don't want | :18:01. | :18:11. | |
:18:11. | :18:12. | ||
disgraceful pictures of ladies's posterior s on our signs." And this | :18:12. | :18:21. | |
Friday is apparently Pippa Middleton's Bottom Appreciation Day. | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
This is the show on which you get the news which really matters. | :18:25. | :18:32. | |
Thank you both. Now on to the weather. Unfortunately in Britain | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
summery means it will be raining frogs, icebergs offshore and | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
plagues of boils. Liam Dutton is in the weather studio with further | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
details. Thank you Andrew. Good morning. We | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
can forget summer for the week ahead. Very autumnal, bringing | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
outbreaks of rain, and the winds picking up. For most it is a cloudy | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
start. Some places turning brighter. Others holding on to rain. Central | :19:00. | :19:08. | |
and eastern England, outbreaks of rain. Brighter for a time in the | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
west. Rain returns to south-west England and Wales and the wind | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
picking up. Feeling cool. Temperatures firmly fixed in the | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
teens. Overnight tonight there'll be another band of rain running | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
north and east across the UK, locally heavy. Showers for Wales | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
and south-western England but not a particularly cold night for many of | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
us. Temperatures staying in double figures. Monday, a breezy if not | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
windy day for England and Wales. There'll be sunshine and showers | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
around too. Those could be heavy, particularly for northern England. | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
But for Scotland and Northern Ireland largalities of cloud, the | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
odd shower there. Largely dry. Temperatures around 17-18. | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
Tuesday, an autumnal day. Wet and windy for all parts of the UK. | :19:54. | :20:04. | |
:20:04. | :20:05. | ||
Heavy rain spilling eastwards. The Education Secretary, Michael | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
Gove, once promised a "superb new school in every community". Not | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
something which can be delivered overnight, of course. But the first | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
wave of the new free schools are opening this week. Whether they | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
measure up to Mr Gove's ambitions will take time to judge. Centrally | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
funded, outside local authority control, the schools have a lot of | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
freedom over what they teach and how they teach it. But their | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
critics say free schools are an ideological distraction. Michael | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
Gove is with me now. Lots to talk about on free schools but I know | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
that you silt for ar English seat but you are Scottish and you are a | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
Conservative and therefore I must ask you about this interesting | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
Sunday Telegraph story. Tories set to disband in Scotland, saying that | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
the name Conservative may go in Scotland. Is this something that | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
you recognise or would welcome? Well, it is a while actually since | :20:53. | :21:00. | |
we've had in the same sentence the words exciting intellectual debate | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
and Scottish Conservatives. The Scottish Conservative Party is | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
where the action is now in terms of opposition to the SNP. Why are they | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
abolishing themselves then? Well, inevitably when you've got a | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
newspaper as el gently composed as the Sunday Telegraph they will put | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
a bit of hype into the headline. We are not talking about the | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
disillusion of the Conservatives north of the border. Only one of | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
the leadership candidates, a bright guy, Murdo Fraser, look at the fact | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
that there are more folk that have Conservative values who vote for | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
the Conservative Party. One of the things I've learnt as a politician | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
from Scotland but representing an English constituency is that the | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
reality of devolution means that you should allow the party in | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
Scotland to determine its own destiny. Critically we do need to | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
have an effective force north of the border challenging the danger | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
of separatism that we get from the SNP, and making sure you have a | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
party that's championing high education standards, lower taxes | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
and the broad set of values that the majority of mainstream Scotland | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
would like to see championed in opposition to a high-taxed social | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
assist SNP. So you could see a different party, not the | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
Conservative Party, not the Scottish Conservatives but | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
something called something entirely different in Scotland, with no | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
doubt lots of Scottish Conservatives inside it? It is a | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
decision for the Scottish Conservative Party. What shoot the | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
name be? By definition given it is their decision it would be wrong | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
for me to say, "I'm your fairy godfather and this is the name I'm | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
bestowing on you." On the right of the spectrum of Scotland we are | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
seeing a revival intellectually and individually led by Murdo Fraser | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
and other impressive politicians. I think we should welcome the fact | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
that it's the Conservative Party north of the border as it is the | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
Conservative Party in England where the action is. Is this just | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
rebranding? No, what you are seeing in Scotland is an examination of | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
the policies, we have a majority SNP Government potentially | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
threatening the union, we need action. How does it help to break | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
up the Conservative and Unionist Party then? If you look at what | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
Murdo Fraser is saying, he wants to put the argument for the United | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
Kingdom in the context of the changes that the SNP are attempting | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
to make and in the context of a devolutionary settlement. You've | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
got to ask tough questions about what we can do to better put the | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
message for the majority of people in Scotland who are, as we know, | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
having grown up there, keen to be part of the United Kingdom, keen to | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
make devolution work, but keen, above all, to make sure that | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
economic growth returns and we get the educational reforms in Scotland | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
that we are enjoying in England. You said you weren't the fairy | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
godmother of the Conservatives but you are the godfather of the | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
schools in England. 24 free schools are starting up, a tiny number to | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
start with. Is it the case that these schools are going to be | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
obliged to mirror the social make- up or pattern of children in their | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
area? There will they have to have the same proportion of children on | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
free school meals as other schools around them? No, they are going to | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
do better in most cases. What we've seen so far with free schools is | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
they've been overwhelmingly located in the most disadvantaged areas and | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
in many cases they've exceeded, even though they've only been set | :24:42. | :24:48. | |
up in the last year, the number of children from kiss advantaged homes. | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
Take Toby Young's West London Free School, it has more people eligible | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
for free school meals than the rest of the borough. Nearly two thirds | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
are in Labour areas. More than half are in the poorest parts. Are you | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
going to put rules and limits on them from the centre or are they | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
free to do that? They are free. the freedom aspect of it, they are | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
free to teach broadly speaking what they want, in terms of a wide | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
curriculum and the rest of it. They don't have to have teachers who are | :25:21. | :25:28. | |
actually trained as teachers. What about schools that perhaps go down | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
idealogical routes? What about schools that decide that Darwinism | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
is all nonsense and they are going to teach Cretanism? What about | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
schools that are Islamic and while staying just about within the law | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
preach very hard core Islamist values to union children, are they | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
going be allow? I've been crystal clear we should not have schools | :25:53. | :26:00. | |
set up by extremists, whether Christian or Islamic | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
fundamentalists or outrageous organisations. We've said up to | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
monitor anyone who comes forward with a proposal for extremism. It | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
is more rigorous than any previous Government department has been. In | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
the last Government we had money going to extremist groups, as we | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
now know from a review of the money allocated which was supposed to | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
fight terrorism. Using MI5 I read? Correct. We've been working with | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
people who've been in the intelligence services in order to | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
ensure that there is no-one from the wrong sort of background | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
involved in education. And, shy add, not just with the free schools. | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
There have been one or two disturbing cases with existing | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
state schools where people have been trying to subvert them. I'm | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
passionate about science and I'm determined to make sure our country | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
becomes more cohesive. As a result, I've said that we will not sign any | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
funding agreements with these organisations. More than that, we | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
are reviewing the science curriculum, the National Curriculum | :26:58. | :27:08. | |
overall, to make sure there is no space for the teaching of | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
whackoidal theories and I want money spent on people who are | :27:11. | :27:17. | |
seeking to help the poorest. We've got a school open ing in Bradford, | :27:17. | :27:23. | |
an amazing guy who whose dad was a bus conductor. Children from Muslim | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
and other backgrounds will now have the chance to go to great nuefrts | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
an area deprived of great schooling for far too long. Sounds like a | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
great story but to really change the system you need hundreds of | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
these schools. It is going to be very hard for you to do that if | :27:39. | :27:49. | |
:27:49. | :27:49. | ||
people are not able to make profits out of running schools. Are you ide | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
yo logically opposed to people coming into this market to do the | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
same here? If so, why? I'm a practising ma tist not an ideolog. | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
I don't have op opposition to involving any organisation that is | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
going to improve our education. However, we don't need profit- | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
making organisations involved at the moment as we have organisations | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
that are philanthropic. Are there enough people coming into the | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
market fast enough to make change without making a profit? There are | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
24 schools opening after only a year and a bit of our coalition | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
Government. It took Blair, great man though he was, five years to | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
get the same number of academies. Margaret Thatcher and John Major | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
didn't have that number of city technology colleges after 9 years. | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
You've elegantly moved off the question of academies, which are | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
different. It is said that the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Nicholas | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
Clegg, has said he will not accept free schools if there is any kind | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
of profit motive involved and that you have had to back down and allow | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
him that concession. Nick Clegg and I are agreed on this. The | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
Conservative manifesto said we didn't need to have profit at the | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
moment. Nick doesn't believe we need to have profit at the moment | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
and we don't. And in the future? Well, we are in a coalition now and | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
we are working to ensure we get more free schools. We've had more | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
than 280 applications for the next round. I'm expecting we'll have | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
significant numbers of free schools. The real barrier is not profit | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
making. It is planning laws that we have at the moment which restrict | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
the necessary growth, both of the education sector and also of the | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
new homes that we need. That's why the planning reforms that Eric | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
Pickles is putting forward are so important. It is why it is so | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
regrettable that some people can't see the wood for the trees. Shire | :29:56. | :30:06. | |
:30:06. | :30:07. | ||
Normally when you have planning issues you have Tories and Lib Dems | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
seeking advantage. Saying we will stand up for this part of the shire. | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
A coalition is a golden opportunity to create the sort of planning | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
reform that means not only can we have more environmentally sensitive | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
planning, we can have more homes and more schools. I must ask you | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
about one of the other things which is discipline in schools. He had | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
said the regime has changed, the world has changed and the notion | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
teachers can exert no physical involvement with children has gone? | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
Totally. But does this mean? For instance a teacher sees two | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
children fighting, now the teacher can go and physically separate the | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
children, I presume? What if one of the children is fighting back, is | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
the teacher allowed to take the child and pushing up against a wall | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
to restrain him? Decides on that kind of thing? The critical | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
question is, I presume you can restrain them at the moment. In all | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
too many cases people don't. saying under the new racing, the | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
teacher will be able to push the children decide? They certainly | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
will. What I'm asking is the exact amount of physical restraint used | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
by the teacher is going to be something argued about. It may end | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
up in court. How will that be resolved? At the moment the problem | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
is that there are far too many occasions teachers believe they | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
should exercise physical restraint and they are not able to. And the | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
natural common sense restraint we would use as an adult, isn't | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
capable of being deployed. The last Government was going to bring in | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
provisions which meant any time there was physical restraint, the | :31:52. | :32:00. | |
hat to be bureaucratic records. Now of course, you cannot engage in a | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
physical abuse which will be criminal in any context. Use common | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
sense is what you're saying? restoration of commonsense. Thanks | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
for joining us this morning. Now to Libya were the new | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
leadership has said they were laid siege to those areas still under | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
control of pro Gaddafi forces and they have given those forces until | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
Saturday to surrender peacefully. Colonel Gaddafi himself remains a | :32:27. | :32:37. | |
:32:37. | :32:38. | ||
fugitive and there have been conflicting reports on where he is. | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
We strongly believe Gaddafi and his sons, apart from the two who have | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
already moved to Algeria, all the other sons are still in Libya. And | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
they are in that region between Sirte and sat there in the south. | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
What happens if and when he is caught? Will it be the Libyans | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
putting him on trial in Libya or will the international criminal | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
court be involved possibly in Libya as well? Our understanding is the | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
ICC will only put Colonel Gaddafi on trial for crimes committed over | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
the last six months. As we know, he is responsible for horrific | :33:15. | :33:22. | |
catalogue of crimes committed over the last 42 years, which he stood - | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
- should stand for an answer for. He can only answer for those in a | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
proper trial in Libya itself. Colonel Gaddafi and his sums | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
offered to give up now, how would the transitional council react? If | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
he wanted safe passage to another country for instance, is that kind | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
of deal still available or has the time passed? I think the time has | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
passed for that. This was offered to him months ago. Three or four | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
months ago, and he did not take it up. Also it is going to be | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
difficult for him and his sons to find a safe haven or a country who | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
will take them. Neighbouring countries like Algeria, Chad, have | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
made it clear they won't allow Gaddafi or his sons or any of his | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
top aides to come into their countries. And if they do they will | :34:14. | :34:23. | |
probably hand them over. The ICC has issued two warrant arrests for | :34:23. | :34:30. | |
his son, Saif Al-Islam, Colonel Gaddafi and one of his top aides. | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
If they are apprehended they will be arrested and treated humanely. | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
They will be kept safe and they will have to face a trial an answer | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
for all of the crimes they have been responsible for. How would a | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
Libyan court do with Colonel Gaddafi, would he be jailed or | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
would he be executed if he was found guilty? That would be up to a | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
court in due time, but I can us your youth the court will be just | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
and will meet all international standards from human rights | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
organisations and other organisations and the UN will be | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
allowed to monitor things. It will be a fair trial, something Colonel | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
Gaddafi has never offered any Libyans who criticised him over the | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
last 42 years. There are many problems for the newly Libyan | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
authorities, not least getting money back into people's hands, | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
getting money back into the banks. How is it going? It is going quite | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
well, the crucial decisions have been made and requested the need to | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
on freeze assets and pay money back so they can start spending it on | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
salaries, food, fuel, health care, medicine, humanitarian aid. Britain | :35:44. | :35:51. | |
have been very helpful. Britain started releasing a total sum of | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
1.86 billion of Libyan currency which it held back six months ago | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
and did not send to Colonel Gaddafi, wisely. Now Britain has already | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
started sending this to Libyan currency and this is going to be | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
very, very handy. It is already in circulation in the Libyan central | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
bank and it will be used to pay salaries straight away. There has | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
been a bit of confusion about whether countries which have helped | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
overthrow Gaddafi like France and Britain will get special | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
preferential deals when it comes to oil, or whether it will be an open | :36:24. | :36:31. | |
and transparent process. Can you clear up that confusion? Andrew, | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
the new Libya is going to be a Democratic Libya. It is going to be | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
all about transparency, accountability and fur practice and | :36:40. | :36:47. | |
competitiveness. In that sense, any contracts will be awarded based on | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
transparent processes and mechanisms. That means any | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
contracts it shall be awarded based on merit and competitiveness and | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
not on any political favouritism. Finally, you have set out a clear | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
timetable for the move to Democratic elections, but Libya has | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
only had one election in its history. It does not have a history | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
of Democratic structures and political parties. How will you be | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
able to create those parties and those structures? Obviously, people | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
will have to be educated and educate themselves very quickly. We | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
need a Democratic culture to start taking shape and take root. But his | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
true, for the last 42 years we never had political parties. Libya | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
has never experienced voting, they don't know what a ballot-box looks | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
like. We have a transition period of 20 months and we think it is | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
sufficient to allow people to understand how they can set up | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
political parties and debate and resolve things peacefully. I think | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
people are looking forward to practise this right. Political | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
participation has been denied to Libyans for a long time. Everybody | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
is keen and eager to participate in the political process through | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
peaceful means and that is through elections and voting and so on. | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
have a very busy and exciting time ahead, thanks for joining us. | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
The latest piece in the jigsaw of Labour memoirs arrives with the | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
publication in the Sunday Times of the first official extract of | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
Alastair Darling's time as it Chancellor of the Exchequer. But | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
his 1000 days as Chancellor were to prove unimaginably testing as he | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
bought the fires of the banking crisis and the recession. And then | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
there was Gordon Brown as well, which the relationship became so | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
fraught which led to dysfunction in the Government at the top. Alastair | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
Darling joins me now. Before we talk about the book directly, the | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
other Libyan related story in the papers are allegations the Labour | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
Government, which you are part of at the time, was doing some secret | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
deal with Colonel Gaddafi to free the Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
Ali al-Megrahi. That has caused an enormous international storm, as | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
you know. It is shown the Government must have been worried | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
about Colonel Gaddafi's reaction if he wasn't freed. Although we | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
haven't got any clear evidence anything particular happened | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
afterwards. What is your view of this? There is no doubt, from the | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
British Government's point of view, we wanted to bring Gaddafi in from | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
the cold. At that time it was thought it was going to be possible. | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
There was no doubt Gaddafi wanted Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi out. But | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
this hangs on the willingness of the British Labour Government doing | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
a deal with a Scottish Nationalist Government and anyone who knows | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
anything about Scottish politics will know there is such a visceral | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
dislike between the two. The idea there was some collaboration is | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
nonsense. It is true to say the British Government wanted | :40:08. | :40:14. | |
Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi at. It is true to say Alex Salmond fancied AA | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
wander onto the international stage. The whole thing ended in tears, | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi is still with us and was and at death's door. | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
There is no doubt at the time, I can understand there was no other | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
way to try to bring Gaddafi under control. They were trying to bring | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
him in from the cold. It did not work, and it now looks finished. | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
Talking about warm relationships between the Scottish politicians | :40:38. | :40:44. | |
takes us on to your own books. The picture you portrayed over the | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
relationship between yourself and Gordon Brown, you had known him for | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
a very long time but it started in a chilly way and got worse very | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
fast, to the point where I think in your 2009 Budget, days before you | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
were due to stand up and House of Commons, you did not have a budget? | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
First of all this book is essentially about the banking | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
crisis which led to an economic crisis and I wanted to describe how | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
we handle that. But there is a political overlay, because the | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
relationship between myself and Gordon got progressively worse. In | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
2009 we had this argument about what you do about the deficit. But | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
I could not tell the story without having to explain. The object | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
lesson here is, for any Government to operate effectively, there has | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
to be complete unity at the top, especially between the Chancellor | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
and the Prime Minister. It isn't the first relationship that went | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
wrong, Margaret Thatcher and Nigel Lawson. These things have happened | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
before. This is crucial because you and he had a fundamental | :41:52. | :41:59. | |
disagreement about the seriousness of the situation? He was livid | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
about use saying it was the worst recession in 60 years. It wasn't | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
just a disagreement, it was going to affect everything in terms of | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
your future planning on tax, spending on the rest of it? | :42:11. | :42:18. | |
frustration is, we could have got through this, we could have charted | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
a political way through it. Actually, we did get some kudos | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
from the fact we managed to stop the banking system from collapsing. | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
We could have dealt with the recession. BM point is, you have | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
done all this, you have to get it your borrowing down. Ignoring the | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
problem is as bad as the present Government's policy which seems to | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
be squeezing the life out of the economy. We could have come through | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
this, we didn't. Why not? Because there was a disagreement at the | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
very top. I was at one with Gordon on this, we have to stop the | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
banking system collapsing we had to put money into the economy. The | :42:57. | :43:04. | |
results of course, like any other economy like -- that has high | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
levels of borrowing, the disagreement was how to get it back | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
down. I thought we could halve it over a four year period. We have to | :43:13. | :43:19. | |
say to people this is what we will be doing less, and he disagreed. | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
only such what you call the forces of hell on you? That was after my | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
interview with the Guardian three years ago. Making it clear that | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
there was this disagreement, how unpleasant was that? I relish | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
attacking Tories, and then attacking me, it is politics. But | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
when you're a lot are doing it to you, it is not new in politics but | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
it left a mark on me you cannot erase. Gordon Brown wouldn't | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
actually have the argument with you face-to-face? We had lots of | :43:50. | :43:57. | |
arguments, very healthy arguments. That's fine, what I do mind it is | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
when you have got people briefing all over the place that you have | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
made a fool of yourself, your days are numbered and you have the | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
judgment wrong. Describe the decision-making system, or the lack | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
of a system when you were trying to get agreement on what you both | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
thought about the economy and way you're going? As I said, throughout | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
2008 argues parted. Everything eyesore into 1008. It too was | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
heading for a meltdown. The banking system was freezing up. If that | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
happens, it is only a matter of time before the economy goes as | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
well. It was happening all over the world. He took the view I was being | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
too cautious. I am naturally cautious. Every Treasury in the | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
world is cautious. He thought the recession would be over in six | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
months? He took the view I had been misled by the advice I had received | :44:50. | :44:58. | |
and I was exaggerating it. The Guardian was one of three, ice at | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
the same thing. There was a disagreement then. We were pretty | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
much at one on the banking crisis. What happened? In practical terms | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
what happened? He would expect if there was a disagreement between | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, the Cabinet would sit | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
down, thrash through these things I knew would come as a collective | :45:19. | :45:28. | |
Government to a decision? It wasn't There is history here, in that when | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
Tony Blair became the leader in the 1990s, and the Labour had been out | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
of power for a long, long time, we badly needed some strong Government, | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
almost dictatorship, and that's what we got. Gordon and Tony | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
together reformed the Labour Party, but unfortunately as the Government | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
went on, that decision-making process changed. As I say in the | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
book, there are a number of issues, whether it was on tuition fees, | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
conflicts and so on, where a Cabinet discussion would have | :45:59. | :46:09. | |
benefited it. This book is full of mea culpas. One big one is I should | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
have forced this issue on to the Cabinet table. This was all done by | :46:15. | :46:22. | |
early morning or late-evening ad hoc meetings which ended quickly. | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
Indeed. I'm not interested in the sort of kiss and tell political | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
story. It is incidental to my story. The far bigger picture, and the one | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
where I think any political party needs to draw a lesson, you need to | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
be united at the top but you also need a credible economic policy. If | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
you don't have a credible economic policy you were simply not at the | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
races. Our problem was it was so blindingly obvious to the outside | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
world that the two of us, Gordon and I, were at odds, that it | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
hampered things. I have to say that, collectively, you weren't fit to | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
govern. I think we could have done a being job than we did. Can I pick | :47:06. | :47:16. | |
up on the "we" there. Everybody is talking about Gordon and yet the | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
rest of you were grown up, adult, powerful political players why. Did | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
you not go in, not necessarily and get rid of him but say, "You've got | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
to change, you can't carry on like this?" Was he fright something | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
There were lots of discussions like that. With limb? You have a | :47:35. | :47:42. | |
discussion with somebody with a tempestous relationship and they | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
say they'll change but two days later you are back where you were. | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
If you want the criticise us correct collectively, perhaps we | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
should have done something. As I say in the book, why did I do it? | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
I'm afraid for me, despite everything, and if Gordon is | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
listening to this, he may find this difficult to believe, but I had a | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
loyalty to him, and we go back a long, long way. This is very | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
unpleasant. Frankly for the wider audience, and I hope people when | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
they read the book will think of the bigger issues still with us | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
today. I want to talk about the Governor of the Bank of England, | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
Mervyn King. You considered at one point not reappointing him as | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
Governor and you felt that his understanding of what was going on | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
in some of the big banks was poor? Back in 2007 when Northern Rock hit | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
us, there were two problems with the Bank of England. One, I don't | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
think the bank had anywhere near an adequate understanding of what was | :48:48. | :48:54. | |
going on in the banking system, despite the fact it had | :48:54. | :49:02. | |
responsibility and had done since 1997. All energy went on the | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
monetary policy side. I disagreed with what I thought needed to be | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
done. I felt it essential to get money into the system to stop it | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
freezing. He was more concernedant solvency of the banks, which of | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
course the two are related. We did not deal with this as effectively | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
as we should. Had there been a better candidate you would have | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
dealt with it wouldn't you? Later on clearly you had disagreements | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
about a macro policy and you felt he had come pretty close to | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
crossing the line and coming out on the Conservative side of the | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
argument over tax and spend. bigger complaint was more about | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
what he was saying about the regulation of the banks, which was | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
the Conservative policy not the Government's policy. I do think | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
governors of the bank need to be terrible before they openly cross | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
the Government of the day. He could see we were going and he felt | :50:01. | :50:09. | |
emboldened, I think, to say what he wanted. This is a live topic at the | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
moment. There seems to be a big argument inside the coalition about | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
whether or not to enforce the break-up of the banks into retail | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
banks and investment banks. What do you think should be happening now? | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
Well, the whole basis on which this argument is being conducted is | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
false. The idea that you could let an investment bank collapse and | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
walk away from it in times of crisis is nonsense. That's what the | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
American Government did with Lehman Brothers and that presip at a timed | :50:42. | :50:48. | |
the worst crisis ever -- precipitated the worst crisis ever | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
seen. Sit wrong for Vince Cable to be pressing for the break-up of | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
banks? If it is about banking activities that's a useful tool. It | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
is not going to stop it happening again. If you are going to make | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
those changes in ring-fences, frankly you should get on with it | :51:07. | :51:14. | |
and not leave it until 019. If you impose it now on banks, then you | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
will so hit bank profits that you endanger what stultering economic | :51:20. | :51:27. | |
recovery you've got. This isn't going to stop the problem, it will | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
be a useful tool. Secondly, anything you do in rorging banks at | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
the same time as it will require them to hold more capital and so on, | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
lit mean there is less money to lend. You need to be aware of that. | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
The third thing, again I mentioned this in my book, we are the world's | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
largest financial centre. That brings huge risks but huge | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
opportunities. We need to be careful about doing something which | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
doesn't solve the problems that we face, and then the double whammy is | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
you start losing banks because they won't go tomorrow morning or | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
anything like that but they start moving away. And the Bank of | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
England, you say, is an old- fashioned autocratic institution | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
which badly needs radical reform? Yes, the present Government wants | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
to make the Bank of England not just responsible for interest rates | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
but for the supervision of banks. Where its track record is mixed. | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
And also it has got this overall responsibility for trying to iron | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
out if peaks and troughs of the economic cycle. That's a lot of | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
things to invest in one person. I think the governance of the Bank of | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
England needs to change. Legislation needs be reconstruct | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
sod the Governor has to be the first among equals. You need a | :52:42. | :52:51. | |
board of directors. Not an advisory economy. Not a court. It is an | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
adornment in every sense. If you are going to do this reform, for | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
goodness sake do it properly. do you think about the current | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
economic outlook? Bad news from America at the moment. I'm very | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
pessimistic now. Our economy was growing for several months after we | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
left office. I think the present Government's policy of almost | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
squeezing the life out of the economy is going to be very bad for | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
us, especially when you look at what's happening in Europe, where | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
you have the same austerity approach imposed on Europe. The | :53:25. | :53:33. | |
picture in America, as you say, is very missed. We have to rediscover | :53:33. | :53:41. | |
the spirit of 2009, where countries have the meet urgently, yes to get | :53:41. | :53:48. | |
your deficits down, but for goodness seek we need growth. | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
you still speak to Gordon Brown very much? Of course, and I hope | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
we'll continue to speak to each other. I'm not interested in living | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
in the past. Indeed. Alistair Darling, thank you for joining us. | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
And now over to Naga for the news headlines. Alistair Darling has | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
said there was a permanent air of chaos and crisis when Gordon Brown | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
was Prime Minister. Speaking on this programme he referred to a | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
deeply unpleasant atmosphere in Government and said perhaps he and | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
other Cabinet members should have done something about Mr Brown's | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
leadership. The next news on BBC One is at | :54:22. | :54:32. | |
:54:32. | :54:32. | ||
midday. MPs say independent counselling | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
would cut the number of women having terminations. Should we make | :54:35. | :54:43. | |
it harder to get an abortion. Stand-off at Dale Farm. Is evicting | :54:43. | :54:53. | |
:54:53. | :54:57. | ||
Now, Snow Patrol are one of the most successful British rock bands | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
of the past decade. Their albums sell millions of copies here and | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
all over the world, and their music has featured on the soundtracks of | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
several popular American TV series. Not bad, considering they once | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
played a gig to just 18 people. We're going to hear the first live | :55:10. | :55:12. | |
TV performance of the new single from their sixth album, Fallen | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
Empires, in a moment. But first, a quick word with their frontman, | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
Gary Lightbody. You started off at a time when you could still get | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
money from the big record companies and you could sell albums. It's a | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
difficulty world now. What about the young bands trying to make it, | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
as you did? We started off at a time when yes it was possible to | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
make money from music, but we didn't for a decade. So we were | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
struggling. Right now, we had two chances. We had a first career of | :55:43. | :55:51. | |
ten years of playing to 18 people. In some very shady places. And we | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
had a second career when we released Final Straw and it took | :55:55. | :56:02. | |
off for us. Not too many people get two bites of the cherry. This is a | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
slightly more retro feel to the album, is that right? Not so much. | :56:06. | :56:15. | |
We've got, we've let our electronic side out and the songs are bigger | :56:15. | :56:21. | |
and bolder. This is called Calling Out In The Dark? It is a tribute to | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
Alistair Darling, which we'll be hearing in a second. | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
That's almost it for this morning. Thanks to all my guests. Do join me | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
again at the same time next week, when it's the 10th anniversary of | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
9/11. We'll be reflecting on that event, and all that flowed from it. | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
But we leave you now with Snow Patrol and their new single, | :56:37. | :56:46. | |
"Calling Out in the Dark". Goodbye. # It's like we just can't help | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
ourselves. # 'Cause we don't know how to back | :56:49. | :56:59. | |
:56:59. | :56:59. | ||
down. # We were called out to the streets. | :56:59. | :57:07. | |
# We were called out into the towns. # And how the heavens, they opened | :57:07. | :57:17. | |
:57:17. | :57:39. | ||
# Like arms of dazzling gold. # With our rain-washed histories. | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
# This is your life, this is your time. | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
# We are listening and we're not blind. | :57:43. | :57:53. | |
:57:53. | :58:09. | ||
# This is your life, this is your # I was called out in the dark. | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
# By a choir of beautiful cheats. # And as the kids took back the | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
parks. # You and I were left with the | :58:15. | :58:25. | |
:58:25. | :58:36. | ||
streets. # Show me now, show me the arms | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
aloft. # Every eye trained on a different | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
star. # This magic, this drunken | :58:43. | :58:51. | |
semaphore. # And I-I-I-I. | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
# We are listening, and we're not blind. | :58:53. | :58:56. |