11/09/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


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Hello all. It's day for thinking back, hard


day for those who have lost people they loved on 9/11, and in the


attacks and wars that followed, tens or hundreds of thousands of


people dead. It is also a time to think about the future, that was


taken from us, by Osama Bin Laden. A world by still had robust civil


liberties in the west, and the Twin Towers, but also, perhaps, had


Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and the Afghanistan of the Taliban. A world


where names like Abu Ghraib, and Guantanamo Bay meant nothing much.


Where passengers in airports never had to take off shoes or belts or


be patted down. And a world in which where we argued about the


legacies of George Bush and Tony Blair, we were thinking about


mangled syntax, or Northern Ireland. We will never know, but it was


probably a gentler, rather more innocent future that was stolen


from us all ten years ago. There is a lot of very good writing


about it in today's papers. Looking through it are the former US State


Department official, and Charles Kennedy a vocal critic on the war


in Iraq. In a few hours President Obama will lead Americans in a


ceremony at Ground Zero in New York. Here, one major poll suggests most


people think there is still a war on terror going on. And they tend


to think it is being won. Among my guests the boss of the company that


lost most of its employees, 658 people, and only survived himself


by a strange quirk of fate, Howard Lutnick's strange tale. And US


Ambassador to the UK, Louise Susman, also in New York on that terrible


morning. We will talk about some other


British dilemmas as well, an announcement that people in work


are going to be working for longer, and tough new plans for people who


aren't in work. All of that with the Work and Pensions Secretary,


Iain Duncan Smith, whose hopes for radical change are challenged, of


course, by the pretty grim state of the economy. Also the main topic at


the TUC conference which starts in London. I will talk to Len


McCluskey, Eider of the biggest union, Unite, who is warning about


every conceivable form of action against the Government, from


strikes to civil disobedience. We will end, despite all of that, on a


note of harmony. I'm joined by the great British soprano, Susan


Bullock, fresh from the Proms, who will be performing for us.


Many different voices. First the news.


Good morning, America is preparing to mark the tenth anniversary of


the 9/11 attacks which killed nearly 3,000 people in New York,


Washington and Pennsylvania. An official memorial to those who died


will be unveiled at the site of the World Trade Center, whose Twin


Towers were destroyed in the attacks. The ceremony will take


place amid tight security. We joined people gathering there


late last night. As darkness fell on Ground Zero,


they kept coming. New Yorkers, tourists, those in uniform.


All drawn here by the almost magnetic pull of this place.


Shining above them, ten years on, Twin Towers of light. It is amazing,


now that ten years later, there is a building that is erected, we are


celebrating that we have been strong, and you know, people are


very emotional. It is tough, yeah, it really is. But America, you


can't break the Spirit of America. Today's anniversary will play out


amid the tightest of security. Following an intelligence tip,


which suggested Al-Qaeda intends to attack New York or Washington,


using a vehicle bomb. The authorities still don't know


whether a plot is active. The ceremonies are going ahead, in


Pennsylvania yesterday, two former Presidents led tributes to the


passengers and crew of United Flight 93, who brought down their


plain here, after overpouring four hijackers. One of the lessons of


9/11 is evil is real and so is courage. What happened above this


Pennsylvania field ranks among the most courageous acts in American


history. From start to finish, the September


11th attacks lasted less than two hours, planes used as missiles,


almost 3,000 lives lost. The effects of what happened here are


still reverberating, both in America, and a world away, in Iraq,


and Afghanistan. This cemetery was covered in debris,


some places six inches to a foot, it was an alien landscape in many


respects. Ten years ago, Lyndon Harris was a priest at the


ebusiness cop pal chapel facing Ground Zero. As then, now the


church has become a focus for those seeking meaning. I believe that


love wins, hope and resurrection, I know that some how in the mercy of


God, even this tragedy is being healed. So the giant cranes


rebuilding Ground Zero, have fallen silent as America pauses. Later


President Obama will join a simple ceremony beside two reflecting


pools, built where the towers once stood.


Remembrances services will also be held around the UK today, to mark


the tenth anniversary of 9/11, wreaths will be laid at the


memorial garden in Grosvenor Square near the US Embassy in central


London. Service also also take place at St Paul's Cathedral, in


Birmingham Truro and Exeter. The leader of Libya's National


Transitional Council, Abdul Jalil, is in Tripoli for the first time,


since forces opposed to Colonel Gaddafi, took over the capital last


month. Speaking after his arrival last night, he told supporters they


should direct all their energies towards liberating the remaining


Gaddafi strongholds. The leaders of Israel and Egypt have pledged their


support for the peace treaty between the two countries, despite


the attack on the Israeli Embassy in Cairo. Three people died after


protestors stormed the building on Friday. The Egyptian Government has


accused activists of damaging the country's international reputation.


It says, they will be tried in emergency courts.


Here, on the eve of the annual Trades Union Congress, the leader


of Britain's biggest union has called on a union movement to


mobilise against the Government's programme of cuts.


Len McCluskey, the general secretary of Unite, told the


Observer newspaper, that every form of protest should be considered,


including non-violent civil disobedience and co-ordinated


strike action. That is all from me. Front pages today. I think the most


striking 9/11 front page is the Independent on Sunday. Advertise


ago very good essay by its distinguished journalist, Rupert


Cornwall. Lots of white space, it is called The Lost Decade. The


Observer has strong stories today, a lot of papers with strong stories,


it is a good news day. That is the pensions story, saying that Steve


Webb says, the Pensions Minister, says we will be told to work


considerably longer earlier than we realised. I will ask Iain Duncan


Smith about that, and we have the Len McCluskey interview. The Sunday


Times, one of many papers picking up more and more stories about the


embarrassing and some would say, shameful connections between


British politicians and Gaddafi's regime. Lots and lots of stuff


coming out on bits of paper in Tripoli about that. The top tax 50%


raises nothing, says the fiscal studies institute. We will be


talking about that too later on. Finally, the Sunday Telegraph,


interesting story, the secret life of the if anythingive Lib Dem donor.


You might remember Michael Brown, who gave the Liberal Democrats huge


amounts of money, and turned out to be almost certainly a serious


fraudster, skipped, disappeared, and has now been tracked down to a


Caribbean hideaway by the Sunday Telegraph. Many things to discuss


today. Thank you for coming in.


Colleen, as a former official yourself, as well as a leading


figure in Republicans Abroad, an important day for all Americans


today. Very much so, and the papers are,


as you would guess, filled with many stories about 9/11. The


Telegraph has a six-page special, and just when you think you are


immune to it all, you read another story about a missed meeting that


saved their life, or a phone call that put them in touch with their


loved one who they would never hear from again. Very strong stories,


and coverage of what will be happening in Washington, New York


and fill Delphiia. On the other side, we have Fukiama, who talk


about putting it into perspective, and 9/11 will not be what we


remember from this decade, it will be the rise of China. Then there is


another story that modesty prevents me from mention, but Charles?


That's my cue. Colleen has an article, if nothing else it sparks


debate, diplomatically, shall we say b the legacy, the aftermath of


the terrible decade for New York and elsewhere in the states. Which


is that led on to the war in Iraq, and all the things we occupy


ourself at. We come from radically different perspectives. You were


one of the earliest and most vocal opponents of Tony Blair's war plans


at that time? I remember getting criticised, the events of ten years


ago, you mentioned at the Lib Dem conference this year, and ten years


it was the same thing. We forget the dreadful international impact


of what took place for a while. For several days we were sitting there,


Tony Blair and myself were sitting there and we didn't know if we


could have a party conference season. You didn't know if there


would be a kas said of attacks, you didn't know if this was one after


another? Yes, you are talking about George Bush's strategy, there was


an excellent programme on during the week on the Geographic Channel,


he's accounting in a very impressive way the events of the


day. He said when he heard of the news of the first plane, terrible


accident, second plane, terrorism, third plane, we're at war, then, of


course everything changed. Although you might not go entirely with the


headline that is there. No war is good. "it was a good war ".


Nonetheless, you would argue what came out of it, the Iraq war?


was the catalyst for the Arab Spring, that once people in the


Middle East, we look at Iraq through different i, but for the


Middle East, here was a henchman who had an iron grip on the region


forever, when they saw him crumble and fall, it was just that first


crack in the edifice, that empowered others to say, you know,


there is actually an alternative vision for the Middle East. That


was Bush's freedom agenda, which people scoffed at at the time, but


the fact is it is happening now, and we never believed it would


happen. There are many other factors including the use of


internet and cellphone, but you can see along the way, to the changes


in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Egyptian, fledgling reforms that


leads up to this point. The images are astonishing, but you need the


perspective that good writing in the newspaper gives you.


Let's turn to politics, the Liberal Democrats conference coming up, and


helpfully we have the faut lines provided here between David Cameron


and Nick Clegg? Another iconic photograph, the first coalition


spring of 15 months ago, the two of them doing that initial joint press


conference in Downing Street. And of course a lot of water has gone


under the bridge in the 15 months. Just as this is a day to stand


shoulder-to-shoulder with all Americans. The media focuses how


much are these two guys standing shoulder-to-shoulder now, after the


experience of Government and some of the very tough times they have


been through. What is interesting about this, about this kind of


analysis, our opposite numbers in continental politics in Europe, for


whom coalition is the norm, rather than the exception, they all say


one of the things you have to deal with and get used to is that the


press are going to be almost exclusively focused on every


persuceptible difference between you and the other party of


coalition, and in fact, I personally think the more


interesting thing, both from a Lib Dem and Conservative and an


observer's point of view is actually the differences within the


parties, not just across the coalition.


The press don't have to work very hard to find the differences, as


you would acknowledge. I wonder on that, which is the most important


current argument between the coalition partners for you? Given


that it is the "economy stupid", to quote a former American Pastoral


President, I think the economics won't go away, and all the other


policies are very dependant on how that goes.


In the Mail on Sunday there is an article suggesting that bankers


should be paid much less and so on. But to a certain extent, is a lot


of this just window dressing, in other words Nick Clegg and the


Conservative ministers? This is the Machiavellian interpretation.


get together and say there is a party conference, let's get a few


row, get it into the papers, David Cameron says yes, Nick I know you


have to say this, and Nick says, David Cameron I know you have to


have something Euro-sceptic. Once the conference season is over, it


is back to business as usual? strategy. I'm not in the loophole


of those kind of discussions. is high-level plotting. I think it


is well understood, it is adult politics, afterall, in the run up


to the conference season you have to think of your own constituency,


your own party membership. I think there has been a genuine shift


within the Lib Dems, post the electoral setbacks of May, that we


have to emphasise more our own identity. I think that is coming


through. As a working entity, I have thought from day one, and


everybody knows I was, shall we say, at the sceptical end of this


coalition, I didn't vote for it being formed, but I have always


felt it would see the course, I haven't changed my view. Let's turn


to another story running in different papers, the Sunday Times


has front page, Cameron told to get tough with Russia, almost the same


in the Observers? There are - Observer? Several papers are


covering this. When Cameron goes to Moscow he will be there today and


tomorrow, he has to communicate the porpbts of human rights,


particularly in - importance of human rights, particularly in lieu


of the businessmen, lawyers, journalists killed, missing and


attacked. This in particular talk about the Russian who was revealing


the largest tax fraud in the history of Russia, Magnitzki, he


was tortured and killed, and yet Britain has not said anything about


this. Secretary of State Clinton has put in place, I think, it is 60


travel bans, frozen assets and so the call from all of the British


papers are that Cameron needs to get tough, and it is not just on


him but it is on Litvenko, and others. We have the BRICK countries


and now we have the BIC countries, because of human rights violations.


This in the east is a very profound story, I happen to be one of the


all-party representatives now from the British parliament on the


Council of Europe, just last week we had a meeting where


representatives of freedom associations and campaigner about


this particular case were meeting with the council to take it up on


the human rights basis, Senator McCain is one of those supporting


in Washington, it is a very big story. Just as the Middle East is


moving towards democracy, Russia falling back like this is not.


contact with Putin in the two, which is an amazing revelation.


helpful story, no doubt from the Sunday Telegraph for your party.


Talking about amazing revelations. Michael Brown in Puerto Plata in


the Dominican Republic. We don't have an extradition freety. There


is lots of pick - Treaty. There is lots of pictures of his home life


and the high life and all that. Your party has money from this man


and hasn't handed it back? It was long since spent. I was leader when


the donation was given. Although they were very careful, we were


always very careful to keep a distance, to keep a buffer zone


over donations. Between the leader and the person racing money? I knew


Michael Brown, I had a number of dealings with them. The important


point p that is I know, or I was told, and I don't doubt the


voracity of this at all, that not only were all responsible checking


taken before his company made this donation, but indeed, they went the


extra mile with the authorities in making checks. The Electoral


Commission certainly accepted that, because the he behaved OK. I notice


there is a reference in the report to the fact they may be revisiting


the issue, it doesn't say any more than that, I don't know what that


means, we will have to wait and see. Public funding of political parties,


that goes down like a lead balloon. Even time, we have Tim Montgomery


on the fate of the Government in George Osborne's hands, and that


porn born needs to face down the Liberal Democrats - Osborne needs


to face down the the opposition, he has the deficit reduction strategy


down, but he doesn't have a strategy for emergency economy


growth, that is what needs to be focused on. How about that. That is


interesting, plan A plus, not plan B, but plan A plus.


There is an interesting little story in the Sunday Times. Which we


will finish on Charles about the statues, all around Britain are


being nicked? And manhole covers and bus shelters. I was first


alerted to this in Scotland, there was a story, a special thing has


been put out by the borders police in Scotland, manhole covers being


stolen. Such is the demand for raw material for the economies running


away at a rate of knots, that theft has gone up in all kind of unlikely


areas, where you can get bronze and copper. Quite a lot of train delays


is a lot of copper being stoleen from the railway system, no mam now


are going to be replaced with plastic replicas the statue.S.


replicas of the statue. Not the railway lines now.


It is beginning to feel autumnal despite temperatures. Good morning


it is set to turn windy for the A curl of cloud in Scotland Turn we


will across Cumbria. Showers heaviest in the morning,


lighter in the afternoon, feeling cool particularly in the breeze for


most of us, temperatures in the teens. Overnight the first batch of


rain will fade away, dry for a time. Picking up in the far North West,


mild for all temperatures in double figures. The real concern for the


strength of wind tomorrow will be for the northern half of the UK,


Scotland, Northern Ireland into the far north of northern England,


gusts of wind of 60-70, damage and disruption is certainly a


possibility. Windy for all, but particularly so for the northern


half of the UK, there will be rain as well from Northern Ireland,


pushing northwards into Scotland. Despite the temperatures in the


high teen, feeling much cooler when you factor the strength of the wind.


The strongest of the winds are likely to be for the evening rush


hour, for the northern half of the UK, gustings of wind of 60-70, if


you are travelling for the latter part of tomorrow, it is worth


looking at the travel situation, and look at the local radio station


Since President Obama appointed him to the Court of St James's, Louise


Susman has been a high-profile representative not just in London


but all of the UK. Before this political career, Louise Susman was


a leading investment banker, ten years ago on 11th September he


watched in disbelief as the second plane crashed into the south tower


of the World Trade Center. He didn't watch it from television,


but from a jet in the skies above Before we talk about what is


planned in London to remember 9/11, let's talk, you yourself, you


happened to be flying through the airspace? I was on a private plane


flying into New York, landing at a private airport in New Jersey. The


pilot told me that unbelievably a plane had hit the World Trade


Center. We were in disbelief, they called me into the cockpit, landing


we were watching and saw the second plane hit. Immediately we knew it


was not an accident and we were under attack. Your son was in the


World Trade Center? My son was in the Merrill Lynch tower, right next


door to it. Unfortunately as he was exiting he saw people jumping out


of buildings, covered with dust, and walked all the way from Wall


Street all the way up to the east side. And you lost, your son


survived, but you lost colleagues? We lost six colleagues at the, I


was with Citibank at that time. And it is a tragedy that no-one will


ever forget, and Americans sure round the world too, but Americans


always remember where they were on two dates, the assassination of


President Kennedy, and 9/11. Many of the rest of us do, certainly the


latter. So, tell us a little bit about what is going to be happening


in Britain, London and elsewhere? Today there is church services


everywhere. I'm going to St Paul's, for a service. Subsequently there


is a major service in Grosvenor Square, where Americans have built


a memorial garden to the British, 67 British lost, as well as to our


own. A royal will be there, and the Prime Minister and the deputy Prime


Minister, the mayor, and your's truly.


A very important moment. Very hard to analyse what has happened


overall since 9/11, both to America and the rest of the world. You have


had the patriot act, everything has changed, in some respects. Do you


worry that the price in terms of liberty, for Americans, in America,


as well as people travelling around the world, has been too high?


really don't. It is easy to say you shouldn't do something and then


something happens and you say wow, I wish I would have done something.


You know the big thing that we have seen, is the incredible resilience


of both the American people and people around the world. Because


besides these acts of terrorism, both 9/11 and other acts of


terrorism, it hasn't caused our life to change. We don't live in


fear, our societies move forward, our businesses work, in trade,


people can go to any place of worship they like. So while we will


never forget this day, it is a moment which we feel confident of


that, whatever we did, we protected America, and in some places the


world. It was staumbling block, but in one direction, not radical.


I wonder about the huge focus American politics has had to put on


security, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq took people as attention


away from other things, such as the deficit and economic problems we


are going through now? We have to be multitaskers in the world. And I


think that the efforts towards security, whether done through the


Homeland Security, or through our security agencies, or intelligence


agencies, et cetera, is on going and always is foremost in the


President's mind, to protect Americans. At the same time, our


ability to function with a strong economy, a strong balance sheet is


equally as important in many ways, because that is our way of life.


And we need to be economically protected. I think the attention is


focused today on deficit reduction, and getting our economy in growth


mode, and getting unemployment down. We focused a lot, and rightly, on


the American loss on that day. There was considerable British loss


as well. What is the American view, would you say of Tony Blair's role


at the period immediately after 9/11, and indeed generally speaking


the British contribution? I think we are overwhelmed at all levels,


of the level of support and sympathy that we received. I


particularly was moved when I heard that while many Americans gathered


at Buckingham Palace to console themselves in some ways, that the


Queen ordered for the first time in the history, that on the Changing


of the Guard they played the Star Spangled Banner instead of God Save


The Queens. I remember the Last Night of the Proms it was very


American? I love that very much, it is an event that has no equal.


Thank you very much indeed for joining us. It is always a pleasure


to be here. No company with offices in the World Trade Center was as


devastated as Cantor Fitzgerald, it occupied four floors of the North


Tower. After a hijacked plane struck it, all of the firm's 658


employees in the office that morning were trapped, none made it


out alive. The firm's CEO, Howard Lutnick, was late into work, it was


his four-year-old son's first day at school in Manhattan, and he had


gone to take him. Then, in the kindergarten his phone kept ringing


and then going silent, he heard about a plane, he rushed to the


office, earlier he described to me what happened next.


When I got to the trade centre, obviously everyone was running away.


I got to the trade centre, I stood at the doorway of our building


grabbing people and asking them what floor they had gotten up to.


What did you floor did you come from, someone would say 52 or 75,


and I had gotten up to the 92nd floor when there was the loudest


crash that you ever heard, I thought another plane had come and


hit the building. Are I hadn't seen any of the video that you have all


seen, I just headed down to the building. It was the sound was two


World Trade Centres collapsing, I didn't know it at the time, I heard


this loud sound I started running, here I am the guy with the suit and


the shoes, running my tail off, I run to the right, fortunately if I


had run to the left I would have run into the crashing building and


I would have been killed. I ran to the right and this giant black


tornado was chasing me. You have seen it, giant, rolling black fog


and smoke, I dove under a war, and the world turned black, I tried to


hold my breath, as if I was drowning, but obviously sooner or


later you have to breathe, so I was breathing in this thick black air


and I laid under the war probably for five minutes, not knowing if I


was blind, because I couldn't see, deaf, because you couldn't hear, or


dead, ultimately I figured I could stand, and I walked out of the mess,


walked up be town, I was covered in soot. Covered just head to toe in


soot. I walked up town until people were clean. And when people were


clean, obviously cellphones didn't work, I went up to the first pay


phone, there was a line of people, a clean woman was talking on the


phone, took the phone on her, I hung up the phone, she looked at me,


I was covered in the ash, she looked at me as if I was a ghost, I


called my wife and I tolder I was alive. You lost, of course - I told


her I was alive. You lost, of course, your own brother, and


everybody in the work force in New York who was at work that day. It


must have been an utterly devastating time, yet you were in a


position of leadership, you had to, not only save the company, but


start work to help all the bereaved families? I gave everyone who


worked for the firm two choices. I said we could shut the firm and go


to our friends' funerals, 700 funerals is 20 funeral as day for


35 straight days, it is inconceivable, or we will have to


work harder than we have ever worked before. To do that would be


to take care of our friends' families. I didn't want to go to


work, nobody wanted to go to work and make moneyment we decided what


we wanted to do is help our friends' families. So we committed


right there, on the evening of the 11th, unanimously, all the


employees of the firm, that we would work harder than we would


ever work before for one purpose, that is to try to take care of our


friends' families, so many of our friends that we lost. As you began


the work of rewhrilding the company, what sort - rebuilding the company,


what sort of help did you get from rival firms as well as your clients,


did they come to your aid? customers were the most incredible.


They came to our aid. The first day we opened our equities business,


which was on the 17th, we barely stitched the company together with


string and bubble gum, just sort of barely connected things. We had a


rule, we would only do one transaction per client, to make


sure we could process these things. Remember everyone who worked for us


had been killed. We really didn't have any experienced people


processing our transactions. Our clients came in and said, no, no,


we are not doing one trade with you, we are going to do everything with


you, and we had, in equities, on the 17th of September, bun of the


busiest days the firm has ever had a - one of the busiest days the


firm has ever had. My wife asked how my day was, I said I think we


were killed with kindness. I didn't think it was possible that we could


process all these trades. When we did process those trades, on the


19th, it was on the 19th of September that I knew the firm


would survive. Because we could process the trades, and we were


then able to announce that we would give 25% of our profits to the


families for five years and pay for their health care, which is very


expensive in America, for ten years. Finally, can you tell us what you


are doing as a company, and you are doing yourself on the anniversary


of this appalling event? Well, the National 11th September Memorial


will open tomorrow morning, the President will be there and all the


politicians. I won't be there for, that that is too much pomp and


circumstance for me, my friends and family will go after that. We will


go to the memorial, which is beautiful, we will put our hands on


my brother's names and our friends names, then we will head up town,


and at 4.00pm in Central Park, we will have a memorial with friends


and families. We will say the names of all of the men, 658 men and


women we will lost, we will show their pictures on big screens, and


we will remember their faces and keep their memory alive. The next


business day, which is September 12th, will be our global charity


day. On that day, not only do we giveaway, we don't just giveaway


our profit, all of our employees agree, all of our salesmen and


brokers all agree to earn no money, and all of our revenues go to


charity. We have so many of our clients help us. We invite


celebrities to come and help us make the day fun and exciting. We


take of about 100 charities. Well done all of you, good luck for the


day. Thank you. The TUC conference opens in London


tomorrow, it is the first-ever time in the capital, with much


speculation about what the Labour leader Ed Miliband might have to


say about the relationship between his party and the union's 6.5


million members. The main subject will be the continuing campaign


against public sector cuts. With threats of future strike action,


civil disobedience by the unions this autumn, including from Len


McCluskey, the leader of Britain's biggest union, Unite. Good morning,


you have 1.5 million members, what is the mood as the TUC gathers? You


have the challenge on pensions, the challenge on public sector cuts,


describe the mood? I think it is simple. It is a very, very angry


mood. Our members throughout the public service sector, are


infuriated by the fact that the Government has launched the


ideolgical take on their work, their pensions, their jobs, but


also within the private sector itself. The users of public


services are angry that everything that has held our nation together


for the past 65 years under threat. That is why we have to stand up and


be counted. So it is a sort of Council of War? Yes, if you want to


put it that way. Obviously it is more a question of trying to build


a campaign of resistance, so that the Government will take stock and


perhaps take a step back. What people need to understand is that,


it was our parents and our grandparents who, having returned


from the Second World War, decided that they were going to build a


land fit for heros, they built the welfare state, and created the


National Health Service, they gave us universal education. All of that


is now under threat. I, for one, don't want my grandchildren saying,


well you did nothing, when our heritage was being taken away. That


is the anger we feel, from the grassroots, right throughout.


seems, on the face of it, slightly unlikely that George Osborne is


going to saying, Len McCluskey you're right, I'm going to change


course. What kind of action follows this autumn, this winter? You can


only build a campaign of protest. I'm one of these people, perhaps it


is old fashioned, to believe that, in a democracy, if you protest


sufficiently, if sufficient numbers protest, in various ways, then the


Government of the day, who are supposed to be responsible in


governing on behalf of the people, will take note. I think this


Government is becoming increasingly isolated from economists, from a


number of their own supporters. What kind of action? I think the


actions that will be taken will be widespread, and I don't think we


can rule anything out. I noted recently a senior citizens


protesting in Bristol by walking backwards and forwards across a


zebra crossing and bringing things to stand still. If you look at


people on UK Uncut, bringing banks into creches and turning them into


different places, and including industrial action. That is


precisely what our members want. They expect their leaders to give


that type of leadership and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with emthis,


when their terms and conditions are being attacked. What do you say to


those who say these are very bleak times, we have a huge, huge


borrowing debt, the money has to be paid back, and there is no other


way of paying it back but by implementing the cuts the


Government has agreed? There is a dogma of despair and fear, that is


what this Government represents, right-wing Governments throughout


the globe represent that. We have got to give something different, we


have to give hope, we have to say there is an alternative to this


type of, these types of cuts. time when public sector pensions


are still overall more generous than private sector pension, do you


think people will be supporting strikes and disruption? I think we


need, I think we need to explode some of the myths. You know, these


are attacks on pensions and talk about gold-plated pensions, we are


talking about dinner ladies getting �4,000 though a year pension, and


being cut back to �3,000 by the Government attacks. It is not what


is being projected. Compare that with the top, the chief executives


of the top 100 in the FTSE. Their average salary is �3.4 million. So


much for us all being in it together. The Government come out


with lie after lie, and the truth of the matter is it is about whose


side are they on. At the moment they are certainly not on the side


of ordinary working people. Labour leader, Ed Miliband, seems


to want the voting in the Labour Party Conference to be at least 50%


non-union, more than 50% non-union voting, in other words to push you


below a majority of voting s that a worry for you? Not particularly a


worry for me. I mean the issue of refounding Labour and the question


of trying to make the Labour Party more vibrant is something I'm happy


to look at. If there is a perceived democratic deficit I'm prepared to


look at it. Were you disappointed by the things he was saying about


the strikes and demonstrations? Without a shadow of a doubt. He


made a fundamental error by attacking the strikes on the 30th


of June. He's laying in his job, he has to be given time to construct a


hopefully radical alternative. I hope that will mean he understands


he has to be on the side of ordinary working people. If he's


going to get Labour back into power, Labour needs to be on the side of


ordinary working people. Thank you very much for joining us.


Those of us who are working are going to have to work for longer.


One minister says this morning that the pension age is going to go up


first to 67 and then later to 68, much more quickly than was planned


by the last Government. Meanwhile, for people who aren't working,


there is huge changes on the way. A single universal benefit, and a cap


on how much anyone can get in benefits of �26,000. The man with


all that and much more on his plate is the Work and Pensions Secretary,


Iain Duncan Smith. Welcome. Let as start off with the economy,


if I may. All your hopes for radical change in the welfare


system presumably threatened by a long period of stagnant growth,


rising unemployment and so on. Obviously the economy is critical


to everything we do. We need to get the economy back in shape, the


deficit down, the debt paid off, so the economy can grow again and


properly. At the moment it is growing, and all the forecasts


suggest it will grow. Pretty flat, though really? Your point though,


that would we do this, or can we do these changes, make work pay, get


people back to work, all the changes you were decribing, if the


economy is in dits, the answer is we have to any - difficulties, the


answer is we have to any way, one of the reasons why the economy has


underperformed over the last ten or 15 years, is because the welfare


system isn't shaped to deliver people to the work force in the way


it should. That has dragged us backwards. As one of the ministers


most concerned with the economy, that is where the money is all


decided, do you favour further steps to boost jobs and the economy,


maybe getting rid of the 50p tax rate, if, as the newspaper says


this morning, it is bringing in no money at all and stifling


entrepeneurship? On the 50p tax rate, both the Prime Minister and


George Osborne decided it was never forever, in terms of when it has


helped to get the deficit down that was always the position of the


Government it would grow. On growth, we are doing the enterprise stuff,


and work on apprenticeships and work placements, and making sure


small businesses get exemptions from certain taxations and lower


corporation tax. There is more we can do. I know George is looking


carefully at a whole new raft of things we can do to give the


economy another push and another kick start in the direction of


greater growth. This is not plan B, but pla. A plus, people are saying?


It is just what you do. When you manage an economy you must


recognise the circumstances you are in, and make sure your main


position, which is right, we have to get the deficit down, pay off


our debt, because we were basically bust, that is what we inherited


from the Labour Government, but nonetheless we have a growth


strategy, it is whether that strategy is working well enough,


he's reviewing that, and making sure the right things are done.


That will mean infrastructure projects and things like that?


key thing that is we have to reduce the deficit, without which we would


be paying interest rates, people forget this, at the like of Spain


and Portugal, which would cost home owners and business owners a


dramatic amount. Your big Welfare Reform Bill lands in the House of


Lords this coming week, where no doubt there will be lots of


argument about it, one of the arguments is about the �26,000 cap


on benefits going to one household, there have been suggestions, Lord


Freud has talked about there being special conditions, where perhaps


there is just a huge number of children in a household so they


don't get caught by that, is that cap absolute or are there ways


around in in a particular circumstance? The cap will stand.


No exceptions? I'm not happy about defending it. There are exemptions,


if people are on disability allowance, or war widows, or


working in tax credits, it is for people not in work. That is the key.


Of course people out there listening to this and watching me


at the moment, when I tell them we are capping it at �26,000 net, that


is a gross income of �35,000 a year. I have people in my constituency in


north-east London, who will say, hold on a second, why is it so high.


So although people are moaning about it. Because I'm working.


is average earnings. People work hard and often commute an hour and


an hour-and-a-half in the morning and evenings, and live in a


location they can afford. That is what we are using people to do with


housing benefit and reforms, look you need to cut your cloth in


accordance with the nature of what you are doing. Just a minute, I


think Lord Freud was talking about circumstances where you have,


whatever you think about it, family with I don't know, nine children


living at home? What he was talking about, and which he was slightly


misrepresented on, we have always had within there, discretionary


measures to make sure that the cap is not about trying to drive people


into homelessness, it is about getting them into situations in


terms of their housing where they could then take work, that is the


key. We will make sure that as people are brought under the cap,


that we take consideration of their circumstances, but the cap is firm.


Firm and clear and stated. It is fair, if somebody is in this a


house paying up to �100,000 in central London, they can't afford


to take a job, they are basically disenfranchised from the whole jobs


markets, the moment they take a job they lose their housing benefit and


can't live there any more. Is that the answer to what Boris Johnson


was saying when he talked about Kosovo-style social cleansing,


people being driven out of the capital by the cap on housing


benefit? The point is, people need to be living in housing that they


can afford to take work from. Most people do that who are not on


benefits, people on benefits must do the same. What he said is there


would be no Kosovo-style cleansing, he's right. He was warning about


its danger of it? There isn't. London is not like Paris, we have


lots of social housing in central London, for people who want to live


in that housing. What we are talking about is getting these


social housing and private rented areas separated, so people get to


live in housing they can afford if they go to work, that is fair and


reasonable position to be in. The cap makes sense, I think. Another


major controversial has been about the way that people who have some


kind of disability are tested for their ability to work. A lot of,


not just the usual suspects, but quite a lot of reputable


organisations of one kind or another, have expressed worry that


the tests are a little bit too intrusive, a bit too aggressive at


times and a bit unfair. Is this something you can look at again?


There are two things, one is the proposal for disability living


allowance reform, and the other is this Incapacity Benefit, sickness


tests. They will both have tested. The Incapacity Benefit one is on


going at the moment. When we inherited it from the Government,


this is what we proposed to do, there were people sitting for 25


years on sickness benefit and they often got better and no-one ever


saw them. This check is reasonable, because it gets us certain that


people who are on it need it, and those who aren't should be in work.


We have had it under review constantly, we are changing it all


the time. Professor Harrington I asked him to review it permanently,


he's taking cancer patients on treatment out of that process, we


are adjusting it all the time. I this at this it is - it is fair and


reasonable at the time. You took control of the Government looking


at gang culture after the riots of the early summer. And I wondered,


Theresa May said, actually, most of the people involved weren't in


gangs, where you have come to at the moment about the importance, or


otherwise, of gangs at the centre of your response to this? Most


people, who are involved in it, weren't necessarily part of gangs,


but of course the thing that happened, particularly in London,


was a number of the gangs did manipulate quite a lot of activity


around the capital and did a lot of criminal work behind it. The key


thing about the gangs, it is not that the riots are the reason, the


fact is, in too many communities and cities in Britain, gangs now


have become completely rooted into these communities, they destroy


them around them. There will be no business investment in that area.


They take kids from as young as 11 or ten, they are involved in


criminal activity, they are very violent. In my own area of Waltham


Forest, we have had many murders as a result of the gang violence,


often innocent bystanders get caught up in it. This is a


priority? They are not only just the products of social breakdown in


these areas, kids from broken homes, they are also driving breakdown in


their communities. Dealing with them and Teresa and I are jointly


doing this, than means everywhere, for the rest of our time will be


about dealing with gangs. Pension age, we learned under the last


Government that the pension age was going up to 66, 67, ultimately to


68. It seems you want to bring that earlier, that it is too delayed, as


far as the Government is concerned s that true? First of all, empp


should know that the last Government left us with a deadline


to get to 67, we are already bringing equalisation, and then


rising to 66 in 2020, we have always said that the time scale


left by the last Government was too slow, because, in fact, there has


been an accelerating longevity, people are living longer but still


retiring at the same age. The purpose now is to look at that, and


we are reviewing that, and to see what might be reasonable, but


giving good warning about what happens. We will be moving to 67,


the question is when. That will happen earlier than originally


planned or announced? Government left us with the


deadline in the 30s, we think that is too late because people's age


levels have increased even since they made that announcement. We


have been about this all along. The move to 67 will happen, the


question is only on the timings of it. We haven't made a decision


about that yet. The new Conservative Euro-sceptic backbench


group is getting together for the first time this week. They have got


some ideas, lots of ideas and proposals, I think William Hague


has said this is no longer a career-damaging, it didn't damage


your career in the old days, but it is no longer a career-damaging


thing to do. What do you feel about relations with Europe when it comes


to, for instance, the large numbers of people coming in, taking jobs


that might otherwise be done pi people who are getting off benefits


and so on? William is right about this. We are in the European Union,


we have to try to make this work best for us. But I think he's also


conscious and all of us are conscious, that there are often far


too many stupidties that go on in there, interferences, we are


suffering some of those, where they make judgment that is don't seem to


make a lot of sense. There is a problem over the human rights issue,


we are looking at that at the moment, trying to find a way of


resolving. Europe is an important market place for us. We are friends


and allies with many European countries, as part of NATO, and as


historic allies. We need to get the balance right about how the


relationship works with Europe. Almost everywhere you look you must


think there are problems with European legislation, I come up


against it again and again. You say you don't want to leave Europe, is


there a middle way, where you can repatriate considerably more powers,


in some sense renegotiate the relationship to give people like


yourself, British ministers, more freedom of manoeuvres? That was


always the Conservative policy, we are in a coalition, these things


have 0 get modified. I know some of my Conservative colleagues are


concerned about that. William has accepted that. Nonetheless, the


reality for us is, we have made it clear, any future treaties, there


will be a referendum on, that has locked any further fuer Government


and this future Government about taking decision about further power


transferal. And there is a looking at how to get some of the powers


not exercised by the European Union back. William is clear about that.


What p the idea of giving parliament back - about the idea of


giving parliament back the right to agree or veto plans from Europe?


I'm always in favour of giving parliament greater power and


authority. I have no doubts about that. Governments, of course, have


to look carefully about how this affects them. I'm in favour,


personally, of anything that gives parliament a greater say, that is


what we were elected for. Thank you very much indeed for


joining us. Now the news headlines. America is preparing to mark the


tenth anniversary of the 9/11 attack, that killed nearly 3,000


people in York, Washington and Pennsylvania. An official memorial


to those who died will be unveiled at the site of the world trade


centre. The Twin Towers were destroyed in the attacks.


Ceremonies will also take place in London and other cities around the


UK, to remember the victims from Britain and many other countries


who died in the attacks. On the eve of the annual Trades Union Congress,


the leader of the biggest union, Unite, has called for campaign of


direct action, including civil disobedience and strikes, against


the Government's suspending cuts, Len McCluskey told this programme,


the mood in the union movement was very, very angry at what he called


an ideolgical attack on the public sector.


That's all, the next news is at midday. We go back to Andrew Marr


show soon. On the anniversary of 9/11, we


debate how a decade of terrorism has affected our ability to be


tolerant. One Iman says we are now so slam phobic, Muslims can barely


live in Britain. The war on terror, despite the bloodshed, could it


still be necessary. It has been a record-breaking


season for the BBC proms, more than 300,000 people, went to over three


months of concerts. Yesterday was the Last Night of the Proms. What a


night it was. That great interpreter of Wagner, Susan


Bullock was there, with crowd pleasing songs.


# A dream that will need # All the love you can give


Susan Bullock joins me now, thank you for being here so early after a


late night last night. I have to ask you, the size of the


Albert Hall, is that a particular technical problem for somebody,


even with a voice like your's? is quite a difficult hall, in some


ways, in just when you look at it it is terrifying, as a sound


problem, it is not a problem at allment you can sing so quietly in


there, if you want, or as loudly, it really takes the sound, it is a


fantastic acoustic, you would think it is terrifying, but it is not.


You are famous for the roles you sing in, Wagner and Richard Strauss,


and so on, to sing us out today, you have chosen something


appropriate to the anniversary of 9/11. It is an American song, it is


At The River, Aaron Copland set it with a piano accompaniment, I'm


singing it unaccompanied this morning. That is all we have time


for, join me earlier next week, 8.30 we go on air, 30 minutes


before, to allow coverage of the Great North Run. I will be talking


to the deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, ahead of the Liberal


Democrats annual conference, and also the cricket legend and


politician, Imran Khan. Until then, on the anniversary of 9/11, we


leave you with Susan Bullock performing Aaron Copland's


arrangement of the American hymn, Shall We Gather At The River.


# Shall we gather at the river # When the angels feet have trod


# With its crystal tide forever # Flowing by the throne of God


# Yes we'll gather by the river # The beautiful


# The beautiful # River # Gather with the saints by the


river # That flows by the throne of God


# Soon we'll reach the shining river


# Soon our pilgrimage will cease # Soon our happy hearts will quiver


# With the melody of peace # Yes' we will gather by the river


# The beautiful # River


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