18/09/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


Andrew Marr's guests at the Liberal Democrat Party Conference include deputy prime minister Nick Clegg, Pakistani politician Imran Khan, and soul singer Beverley Knight.

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Good morning. The party conference Good morning. The party conference


season, as reliable as the falling leaves, over the


will be talking to the Labour and to the Prime Minister but


we are here in Birmingham for the Liberal Democrats. A city, of


course, with a great political tradition. Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem


leader, told his party that it was here that Lloyd George, the great


Liberal leader of the past, was nearly killed by a rioting,


murderous mob. He only escaped by being dressed up by a policeman.


Nothing like that will happen to Clegg this week, we think.


But these are tough times, with hard But these are tough times, with hard


decisions for anyone in government. The economy is in trouble,


unemployment's very high and Europe is fighting hard to keep its


currency. Plans to kick-start the economy are to be announced


Liberal Democrat ministers today I am going to be talking


about all of that, about in politics and about his relations


with the Conservatives. He has already told the Lib Dems here that


his job is to be awkward, not make life easy for David Cameron.


But this morning we also have a remarkable interview with one of the


men who created and shaped Labour. The political strategist,


Philip Gould, who says himself he is in the final phase of his long


battle with cancer. He talks with extraordinary candour about the


illness and about how it has caused him to re-examine every aspect


his professional and his personal life.


We hear also from the great We hear also from the great


cricketing hero, Imran Khan, who is hoping that his Movement for Justice


party will break through in Pakistan's next election,


will have music from the soul singer Beverley Knight.


Beverley is a local woman and she is Beverley is a local woman and she is


a flag carrier for British of that, plus our usual paper


this morning with the Lib Dem President, Tim Farron, and The Times


sketch writer, Anne Treneman. But first the news from Riz Lateef in


London. the Treasury Danny Alexander will


today announce measure to say kick-start the economy. They will


include a �500 million fund to deliver key infrastructure projects


and create jobs. In a speech to Liberal Democrat conference in


Birmingham, Danny Alexander will also announce the creation of more


than 2,000 jobs at the Inland Revenue. The roles are designed to


help staff clamp down on tax avoidance and evasion by the rich.


Barack Obama is to propose a new minimum tax rate for anyone


in the US who earns more than million dollars in a year. The White


House says it will be part of a series of measures to be announced


tomorrow, aimed at reducing America's budget deficit. Rugby


America's budget deficit. America's budget deficit.


Republicans have said they will Republicans have said they will


oppose any plans to raise taxes. Pakistan's Prime Minister


promised more help for flood victims in Sindh. Monsoon rains have


submerged buildings, make of thousands of people homeless.


Hundreds have been killed. Here, prayers will be said


South Wales today in memory of the four men who died in the


Gleision Colliery. An appeal fund set up yesterday to help


bereaved families has already �20,000.


The number of people kill indeed yesterday's crash at an air race in


the United States has risen to nine. Eight of the dead were spectators


who were struck when fighter plane crashed into their


grandstand at the event in Reno, Nevada. A number of


That's it, now back to Andrew in Now, front pages as usual. Here is


Now, front pages as usual. Here is Now, front pages as usual. Here is


That's it, now the Sunday Times, like a lot


papers leading with the Liberal Democrats: Cable clamps down on top


pay. That's lots of new inspectors, and so on, for people trying


avoid the top rate of tax. The Sunday Telegraph, however, has


story about Blair and Gaddafi's secret meetings, suggesting


there was a lot more to the release of the Lockerbie bomber than we


thought. It also says that Cameron aims to put the "great"


Britain. The Independent on Sunday also has


that that crackdown. 2,200 new tax


inspectors to target the says. Here is the Observer: we will


fight ruthless Tory extremists, the Lib Dems. Getting very excited


Sunday Express. Thieves strip the UK Sunday Express. Thieves strip the UK


bare. That's just power lines, a of theft of going on around the


country. And finally let's have the Mail on Sunday: two days' pay to


party on your tax. That's not a newspaper offer, that's a story


about civil servants taking extra paid holidays to attend an


alcohol-fuelled sports event. Farron and Anne Treneman but


for coming in to review the papers. Where will you start? Utterly


staggered, Andrew, that picked out the Lib Dem conference.


This is an interesting story I think it kind of puts a slight


opinion about our problems, like. The Liberal Democrats have cut


tax for the lowest paid and anybody on a lower and middle-income will


get - already getting a tax cut. That tax will get bigger as the


Parliament goes on and yet the headline here in the Observer


that our tax plan will benefit the rich and not help the poor. This is


a think-tank, isn't it? Yes, PPR. And that's what they think?


Allegedly it is what they think I am sure they do think it.


kind of true in a way. Well, it does, obviously if you are


earning money then you pay tax. you are earning above a certain


amount. If there is a tax cut at the bottom of course it works its way


up. What the Lib Dems made sure of all the same is that you don't get


that tax cut if you are on the 40 50% rate. So yes, it does help


people on middle-incomes and we are not ashamed of that but obviously it


helps people on low incomes as well. The point that is fair and it


need to be tackled, that is made here, is that if you are not earning


the minimum wage and if you are not working at all, or if indeed you are


on part-time work and therefore earning perhaps less than 10,000 a


year then this doesn't help you. OK. Having said all that,


majority of people in that position are pensioners, they've got the


biggest rise in 30 years, not that it feels like it at the moment.


have chosen a related story here? Yes, I love this story because


Lib Dems, you do love to hate the rich, don't you, and so now there's


a new team being announced here called a Affluence Team. I love this


idea that they will drive round in Bentleys looking for other people in


Bentleys to - I just love the idea of this team. I never know if this


stuff ever, ever happens. You read about it and think - It needs to.


The point is, very quickly, title is laughable, I agree.


do you mean "very quickly"? Well, yes, but the point is this. A lot of


newspapers get wound up about people claiming benefits that they


shouldn't be doing but there is much more money lost every year from


wealthy people who find clever and not necessarily legal ways of


avoiding tax. We were told this at the last Liberal


conference, it was announced then and reannounced now. It's a funny


atmosphere because talking to people last night, this is a


for years and years has loved hate the Tories and now suddenly


wake up in bed with them and you are not quite sure whether to have a go


at them, mock them publicly. Clegg had a good joke about you


having five Cabinet ministers or if you include Ken Clarke. Indeed.


You are not quite sure how to deal with these people


you? All of us have a difficulty getting used to coalition. It's not


normal, not in England anyway. The Lib Dems probably have least trouble


with it of all the parties but it's still difficult because here we are,


most normal grown-up compromise and get on with people


they don't agree with. Yes. And politicians don't. It's a new thing.


So yes, there are psychological difficulties, shall we say. Are you


saying politicians aren't grown up? Mostly not, no. Most don't behave


like it. Your colleague Matthew Paris, Anne, had a good


week where he said this conference season the public aren't


going to want to see political points scoring in the old way.


Things are too serious actually for that. Yes, well, dream on is all I


can say. We have to tax the rich. Whatever. Yes. You know, attack


makes news, obviously. Yes, consensus isn't interesting and it's


a shame because it is actually we need. Above all, if you got one


thing out of Nick Clegg this week, what would you want to hear, Tim?


Again I think distinctiveness the Liberal Democrats but we can't


be so distinctive that we undermine the coalition because


line is, even if we don't get credit for it, it's important the country


is stably governed. So distinction about tax and also human rights?


Distinctive but not too distinctive. Distinctive and not destructive, if


that's the right way of putting it. We want to be spiky and ourselves,


we don't want people to think we've become something we are not.


Human Rights Act? It's totemic. It's not about rescuing us from the


mess we are in financially but it about defending the kind of


we are. The background to this is that a lot of people, including a


lot of Conservative ministers, think that the Human Rights Act is getting


in the way of dealing with the aftermath of the riots, dealing with


criminal people, dealing with problem families, and so on, and


there's a review of it to see bits testify could be stripped out -


bits of it could be stripped out? There is. There is a lot of rot for


one thing. If we have to join anything for those problems it is an


US litigation-style culture which would happen with or


Human Rights Act but the Act is not there to protect nefarious


characters, it's there to put black and white traditional British


liberties. If we are to go around rightly I think supporting those,


for example, involved in the Arab spring and trying to uphold


desire for justice and human rights, how ludicrous for us to be


undermining our own at home. So that's a red line? I would say so,


yes. Absolutely. Yes. I have a line of my own. This is a survey


reported in the Sunday Times. I think that Lord Ashcroft actually


has something to do with it so the results aren't perhaps that


surprising but hilarious surprising but hilarious asking what


people thought of various party leaders. David Cameron has a picture


of lion here, the only person who has come out with anything


resembling leadership. The picture of him is a bull in a china shop.


Poor Nick Clegg, he has a puppet here and then a little kitten.


is the picture that they think Nick Clegg. Yes. They asked people


phrases that they associated Nick Clegg and one of them was


"drowning man". That's not very nice. It's very bad. Speaking


not very nice, there's a piece about you, Tim: Lib Dem leadership


plotter. Yes. It's a gay smear story. I'm trying to find the


accuracy in there because I am not leadership plotter and the gay smear


thing is very - this is an old story about a story that wasn't a story.


It's the kind of thing that you guys have to put up with the whole time?


It is. In January of this year paperback home printed a


a person put away for two years for blackmailing an anonymous person


over their secret gay life. Some very pleasant person put it


the lobby that that person was That is not the case. This two-day


flurry in January/February and then they found out unpleasantly who


person was so they went quiet and for some reason the Mail decided to


unearth it now. It's distressing it's life. Over to something


more scary, however, Anne. been worried all morning about


particular story which is in Observer? Well, this is about


spiders. I don't know, I just there are spiders everywhere,


literally. There are. Coming of the woodwork. It is. There are


spiders under the woodwork. There was a damp spring, some more pollen,


so more insects, so more baby spiders lived and now we have all


these incredibly fat female pregnant spiders in the woodwork apparently.


People are ringing up the British Tarantula Society, about these


pregnant British spiders, there are just so many of them. I found that


fascinating. That will produce more birds which will eat more spiders,


and by evolution, that will produce more ornithologists. Darwin


have approved of that. It's all good. The next story? The headline


is in the Sunday Times: the stuff. It's basically a literary


story predicated on an interview with Robert Llewellyn, about the


Arctic Monkeys who went over the head of the record companies and


appealed straight to the this is the same thing where you


have a set-up in Notting Hill you can pitch your work, your book,


to the public directly. I think it seemed superbly democratic without


going through the kind of prejudices of editorial process. And the


boring stuff of people writing cheques to you either.


possibly what you will miss out as well. OK, speaking of cheques


and bouncing cheques, bouncing Greeks, the other huge story, of


course, is the European economic crisis, fiscal crisis. Yes, I


absolutely love this picture, which is spartans. We think so. There's


a great quote, and this basically is quite depressing reading so


don't want to be - it's just everything is sort of going down the


pan basically. But there's a man here who is appropriately called Dr


Doom, an economist - Is he really called Dr Doom? That's his


nickname. He has another name. That's a shame. I wish he was


Dr Doom. He is basically saying they have to do something. They


finally have to do something. So Arsenal fans will also be


this morning when they read some obscure team - I can't remember


their name. I am a Blackburn Rovers name and we have quadrupled the


number of our points this season by winning a game yesterday. Allegedly


we had three shots and scored four goals. My point is this, about the


media, even when we win, we are not interesting. It's "Arsenal lose


again", nothing about our team who beat them. Thank you very


indeed. Pretty fresh and parky morning as I came on that


studio. Not heavy rain here in Birmingham, let's find out what's


Thank you very much. For some of us Thank you very much. For some of us


it was chilly but sunny morning. Others have already seen


showers. Like yesterday it will be story of sunshine and


through the day. Although Andrew said the rain not heavy at times,


those showers are going to be pretty torrential. We could even see the


odd rumble of thunder. A few changes this afternoon with showers slowly


fading towards the west. Temperatures all in all a bit


disappointing, even with a bit of sunshine many highs of around


18C. Clearer skies overnight. Another chilly night tonight but we


will see thicker cloud and rain arriving in Northern Ireland by


dawn. Tomorrow in the west, and rain then moving


Western Scotland, northwest and Wales and the southwestern


corner. The best of the sunshine by the afternoon holding on to East


Anglia and the southeast, so as a result here 20C but where we


more cloud and the rain, temperatures more like 16 to 17C.


More details on the weather for the week ahead by going online.


Many thanks. Pakistan is a deeply Many thanks. Pakistan is a deeply


troubled country, currently troubled country, currently


Many thanks. Pakistan is a suffering again from terrible


flooding. It's also known for a great deal of political


and violence. It was once a partner of the West on


so-called war on terror but now distrusted by the Americans


Osama Bin Laden was discovered there. Imran Khan has just published


A Personal History of his country in which he is scathing about policy in


Welcome. This is a book which says Welcome. This is a book which says


in essence that Pakistan has pretty much the most corrupt


political system in the world. That's a pretty high claim?


this was going to happen, Andrew, because in the 2008 elections an


amnesty was given to 8,000 of the biggest criminals in the country and


not only were they given amnesty, they were allowed to contest


elections and most are in right now. So when you


criminals running a corruption goes through the roof,


and it's not even corruption, it's plunder right now. You famously


created a free cancer hospital, have done a lot of that kind of


philanthropic work and you hope that your political party's time


have come but you are starting from a very small base, if I can put it


politely, and you are up against people with huge amounts of money


and an old system of barons passing out seats? The last election we


contested was nine years back. Since nine years the other parties have


gone down in Pakistan, because of corruption. All the parties are in


power in different provinces. As corruption rises, as discontent


rises, there's insurgency throughout our western borders, there's target


killing in Karachi, there are floods, so there's a total


disillusion. Of the people from these old political parties, and so


according to all the polls my is now the number one party in


Pakistan and I'm confident that this will be the biggest upset


Pakistan because the young people all want a change. We are sitting


in Birmingham, a lot of people in Britain, particularly in


the Midlands and so on, is it important for a politician like you


to come over to Britain and talk to Pakistanis here as well, as part of


the campaign? Yes, it is, there are 6 million overseas


Pakistanis. Their GDP is equal to 180 million Pakistanis, and they


find not only us political parties but, whenever you want, when you


the system there, the governance system, the biggest investment will


come from overseas Pakistanis just like in China and in India. It


the expatriate community, the overseas Chinese and Indians who


helped in their development. So hope lies in the overseas Pakistanis


who when you fight corruption, fix the system, that's where the real


money is going to come. Let's about the aftermath of the death


Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan. When we talked in the programme to President


Obama he was pretty withering and angry about the


government's involvement in all of this or his suspicions about that.


What's the feeling now in Pakistan, because it was a very bruising


moment for both countries. Humiliating for Pakistanis.


Humiliating that a country has lost 35,000 people dead, a country


had nothing to do with 9/11, there were no Pakistanis


Al-Qaeda was in Afghanistan. Then the economy has lost $70 billion.


Total US aid is about $20 billion Total US aid is about $20 billion


and 3.5 million refugees, internally displaced people. So a country that


has given such sacrifices. In the end, for us Pakistanis, whatever the


government role we don't know, to be called by the CIA chief either


Pakistan was incompetent, or they were complicit, I think that was the


most humiliating thing for Pakistanis. And David Cameron here


said Pakistan was facing both ways. Exactly. That's why people


it is a wrong war, we should not have gone into it. As western


forces pull back in Afghanistan, doesn't that simply push the fight


against the remaining part of Al-Qaeda into


You have these drone attacks, and so on, at the moment? We have drone


attacks but they are totally counterproductive. All they do


they kill suspected militants, their family, but these are quickly


replaced by more people. Every year the violence has grown. These have


failed to - these are failed policies. They failed in


Afghanistan, they are failing in Pakistan. The answer lies in a


political settlement. There is no military settlement. Yes. Your


critics say that you come across very well and all the rest of it but


you have become quite a tough Islamist yourself. Anyone who just


does not go along with the US is either with us or against us.


You've got to become either a right wing or a hardliner. I objected to


this insane war on terror. You don't fight a war on terror with bombs and


F16s and helicopter gunships in villages where innocent people are


getting killed many it's just exacerbating the situation. So


anyone who pulls this policy becomes an Islamist. This is a ridiculous


thing. The issue will never settled militarily. Any expert now


knows, anyone, your exambassador says exactly the same thing. All


right, Imran Khan, thank you very much indeed for joining us today.


Now, from the general election Now, from the general election


adulation of "I agree with Nick", to having dog dirt shoved through his


letterbox, it has been to say the least a rollercoaster


Deputy Prime Minister. This week one newspaper claimed he had promised


his wife he would only serve one term. Whether that's true or not,


has got some huge decisions ahead of him as the coalition struggles with


hard times. Nick Clegg joins Good morning. Morning. Let's talk


to start with about hard times. We have the euro crisis. Yes. All


around us. The latest figures suggest that we may either have a


completely flat period in the economy, or things might actually


return to recession. So talk us through just how bad you think, how


worried you are about the economy first of all. I think the


is very serious. We are a very open economy, we are hugely dependent


what happens around us, on the eurozone. 40% of


and more go into the eurozone, so if things are spluttering there,


they are very seriously, then of course that affects us massively,


which is why it's hugely in our national interest to make sure that


the eurozone is strong. But that doesn't mean there aren't things we


can do at home. Of course we balancing the books, everyone knows


that, we are reducing the burden on businesses, less red tape, less tax,


but I think there are more things we can do to create jobs today


build for tomorrow. That's why last week I made a speech about how we


are giving priority to infrastructure projects. San sand


today has talk - Danny Alexander today has talked about


being set aside for local infrastructure projects. What does


infrastructure mean? Broadband, housing, road, rails. And


Cable has been also talking about the need to do that, to really make


sure that we foster confidence we can, even though, you are right,


the wider context is really tough. I want to come back to the wider


context in a minute but there's simple question which is: you are


cutting expenditure, taxes high in order to balance the books,


so where possibly is the money going to come from for the kind of


substantial infrastructure projects that would actually get unemployment


down? Let me first - a little of perspective. We as a government


are still spending �700 billion a year, that is - hang on - Nobody


understands what that means, the trouble. No, the thing is


is this ludicrous caricature that because we are balancing the books


government can't do anything, that somehow we are turning the clock


back to the 1980s or 30s. As proportion of wealth this


will be spending more in public spending after all these


end of this Parliament than Blair and Gordon Brown were when


they came into power so there's a lot that government can still do,


not only through direct spending on broadband, on housing, on road, on


rail, but some of the We are setting up the first


Investment Bank, which is investment bank which takes public


money, taxpayers' money, and then gets private investors' money


for instance, renewable energy. That makes a big difference in actually


creating jobs today but, as I say, building for the future as well.


where does the money come from, for these big projects, and how much


money will there be? There will be literally billions of pounds of


investment, which we had already planned, but what we are


is that the ones which stimulate growth most effectively now and


help, for instance, employ young people who at the moment can't


a job, that they are given priority. Give me some examples.


We've already said that we are going to invest hundreds of millions of


pounds into superfast broadband. That's a good thing for


in the future, but you need to employ people to dig up the roads


and actually put in the new cabling and the fibre-optic cables. This is


not new money, this is have announced already? Let's be


clear. Quite a lot of it is that was already in the system but


crucially we will crucially we will actually by


2014/15 be spending a little more on what they call capital spending,


these big projects, than any previous government. So no


money yet? If I can finish, through these new investments, we calculate


about �18 billion of new money will go into building, for instance,


renewable energy infrastructure during this Parliament. That is not


to be sniffed at. Only �3 billion of that is taxpayers' money and what we


use, we use that money to then make sure that the private sector brings


in other money. Let me give you one other example. There's a regional


growth fund, something I sort of preside over in government, which is


there to allocate money to businesses who kind of might be


thinking of investing in a new bit of kit in the factory floor or


opening a new factory unit but a bit of a top-up to do that. We are


using this �1.5 billion to do that; that's matching public taxpayers'


money with private money common good. Yet you know that out


there there are no signs of growth. The private sector is not racing to


the rescue as you might hope indeed everyone is looking at


global picture and shivering and retrenching, rather than


more. Sure. So what else can you do? What about looking again at the


tax system for small businesses? What about tearing up some of the


old planning rules to make it easier for house builders and other


to invest money? As you know, it's very controversial, but we


actually saying that we do need to look at these very antiquated


planning rules - And you are 100% against the sort of green England -


Look, I think some frankly rather misleading claims are being made


that we are going to destroy the greenbelt and so on, that


people won't have their say. In respects local people will have more


of a say. What we is that you can't have a situation,


and we are pretty unique in this the developed world, where, if


people want to get on with the development, it takes them years


years and years and years to get permission. We haven't got years.


We've got to get moving as a country because - Sure. Economists


about numbers and percentages billions here and there. At the


of the day this is about something much more elusive and delicate


is just confidence. It's to get people to start building that


first house, confidence that the business uses money they've got to


create a new job, confidence to households to go out and spend a


of money in the high street. OK. That's a delicate thing, it's


affected by international circumstances over which we only


have limited control, influence but not control, but we


can also do things in the way that I've described to boost confidence


at home. Let's talk about all to do with confidence


rest of it, which is income tax. The Chancellor is looking at whether or


not the 50p band of tax not the 50p band of tax actually


raises any money at all. If he concludes that this is actually not


bringing money into the Exchequer, and presumably putting some


off at the top end, is it acceptable for that to go? If we discover that


the 50p rate just hasn't raised money from the very wealthiest


it was supposed to, clearly to look at other ways - And you


not going to stop it going? Let me finish, then I of course think we


should look at other ways the wealthiest would pay the amount


expected through the 50p rate. This is a debate which isn't just


happening in Westminster and political parties in Britain. Look


at what President Obama has said. Sure. Overnight. Look at the


in Germany, in Italy, in France, across the developed world, everyone


accepts as I passionately believe, that when a lot of people on


ordinary incomes are really finding it difficult to do the weekly shop,


to pay these hugely inflated heating bills this winter, it simply would


be incomprehensible to them, whatever the rate rises, to suddenly


lower the tax burden on the very wealthiest. I understand that


absolutely. What I'm trying to find out is what might then happen. You


mentioned last night again the mansion tax. So, if the 50p rate


to be dropped, are you would have to be a quid pro quo,


something like the mansion tax to replace it? It's unfair on George


Osborne for me to try and seek to write budgets now in a television


studio. Sure, but the principles of different taxes? The principles are


agreed across government and if you look at the budget statement George


Osborne himself said going to look at the amount that the


50p raises, but at the same are going to look at the way in


which the very wealthiest and those in very high value properties pay


their fair share so that was agreed across government and clearly these


things are linked. Sorry, I just want to be absolutely


this before we move on, that you will block, you would stop, any


abolition of the 50p rate there was something else which


raised money from the top earners? raised money from the top


I have two pre-occupations. Firstly, I don't think it is morally or even


economically right to unilaterally lower the tax burden on the very


wealthiest when we haven't made more progress as I want us


lowering taxes for the millions on ordinary incomes. That remains my


principal concern. That's the I got written into the coalition


agreement that our overriding tax priority was lowering


on millions of people on low ordinary incomes. Secondly, and


secondly, which is your point, which is that if the 50p does not raise


money as we had hoped from the very, very wealthiest, remember


the top 1%, not the middle classes, it's the top 1%, then of course


need to look, and as the himself has said, we've got to look


at other ways to ensure they pay their fair share. So it stays


unless there is an alternative; yes or no? It stays unless we can first


make more progress tax burden on people on lower and


middle-incomes and secondly sure as the Chancellor himself has


said, we can find other ways that the wealthiest pay their fair share.


Just on tax generally, I think tax Just on tax generally, I think tax


and benefits generally, you have one debate which is about the sort of


cheats on the benefit system moment bottom and a lot of noise


quite rightly quite rightly about how people get


out of paying their fair the top. We have to remember that


the real pre-occupation should what happens to those millions of


people on ordinary incomes, and middle-incomes. They often get


overlooked in this debate about what happens, the benefits system at the


bottom, the wealthiest at the top. The Liberal Democrats are there


really support and be on the side of millions of people who play by the


rules, work hard, pay their taxes and are feeling unenormous


right now. A lot of Conservatives feel that those very same people,


who are often the victims of the riots over the summer, are also


furious about the way that criminals get off, about the fact that we


can't send people out of the when they've come in here


they've committed crimes, are looking more and more at


Human Rights Act as something getting in the way. Again, there is


a government research being done on the effect of the Human Rights Act


to see if parts of that can be removed or watered down


with in some other way for what they would say are common sense reasons


that most people approve of. Look, anyone, any rational person looking


at the people who have gone through the court system after the riots


would say that the big problem not the Human Rights Act, it has


nothing to do with the Human Rights Act; the big problem is that we have


been far too soft on repeat crime this country for far, far too long.


Lots and lots of these people actually it now turns out had a


long, long criminal record. As as your arm. What has gone wrong is


that, despite all the tough talk from Labour, pouring more and more


people into the prison system, that has happened is they've come


out again, our prisons have become colleges of crime and young


offenders of today become hardened criminals of tomorrow. That's why


I'm very supportive and excited about Ken Clarke's revolution - You


called him a Liberal Democrat minister last night. I think he has


got it absolutely right justice. Stop discussions about the


Human Rights Act which has to do with the sentences passed. I


think you just finished his career off as far as his party is


concerned. Probably the kiss death. Let's keep talking about


Europe, however. What's the message to those Conservative Eurosceptics


who got together in a new organisation, they are talking to


Labour Eurosceptics as well and we need to loosen our relationship


now with Europe, we need to repatriate powers and they


looking forward to a referendum before too long and we get another


European Treaty. Sure, what is the strategic national interest for


United Kingdom in the European Union? In my view unambiguous,


probably the greatest achievement in recent years was ironically enough


British achievement. It was British Commissioner, a guy who


created the world's largest borderless single market.


Margaret Thatcher's government, Conservative government that


introduced the single European act that allowed British businesses here


in Birmingham, in the Midlands, to invent things, manufacture things


and then export them completely freely into the largest consumer


market in the world. I personally think that our absolute overriding


priority, if you want to protect jobs, communities, families, is to


actually deepen and widen that liberal, open, free market right


our doorstep. If instead what you do is you indulge in I think a complete


distraction, which is sort of creating a top ten hit list of the


specific directives you don't particularly like - by the way,


there are directives that I don't technically like - you just miss the


big picture which is that if eurozone, as I hope they will,


stabilise things by basically getting their act together and


integrating a bit further in certain ways to really make sure


eurozone is a success, the last thing we should do is say: in


case we wash our hands will enterprise and we will get out


- the whole enterprise. That will destroy jobs and prosperity in this


country. I think we should say in run for this we want


into the single market which is still not complete. And you still


want to join the euro? there is absolutely no question of


this country joining the euro, certainly not during this


government. To call that impossibility is to put it mildly.


Absolutely, but in principle you still in favour of this currency,


which is unravelling? No, I will tell you what I am in principle in


favour of, people simply recognising geographical reality. We are in the


Europe. We are not in Alaska. We are not on the other side of


Atlantic. We are not nestled geographically next to China. Europe


influences us. Whether you like EU or not it has a massive effect


our everyday life and I want us, if you like, to have the kind of


bulldog confidence of the British spirit to say, instead of constantly


looking for excuses to get out of the game, get in there, shape it,


influence it and do so in national interest. What is our


plan? How are we going to react if Greece and possibly other countries


are forced out of the are facing a dramatically worsening


situation there? Look, I really, really hope it won't come to that


because that's not only bad for the eurozone, as you rightly imply that


has knock-on effects on the banking system across - But if it does?


The world as a whole would need it take dramatic measures. It's one of


the reasons both in the EU the G8 and G20, we are playing a


very active role in saying the has to react in a co-ordinated


fashion. We can't simply sit back and say that somehow what's going


over there has nothing to do with us. It's all to do with us as well.


OK. Your wife, we read, has a from you, that you are going to only


serve one term. Is that true? Can I put this mildly? I really wouldn't


believe a world you on Sunday. This is the paper that


called me a Nazi. They have a bee in their bonnet about the


the Liberal Democrats and they come up with drivel every single day. I'm


in this because I believe it's the right thing to do. Miriam supports


me fully in this and I want to us succeed in the coalition


government and beyond. Let me explain why - Before we get there,


asked you a very, very clear question. Are you in this for


term only or do you intend Liberal Democrat


intend to see it through term? Absolutely, I intend to see


it well beyond one term, all right? There you go, Daily Mail, wrong.


There's a surprise. That's very clear. In the same account, however,


we also heard that your party done quite a lot of work on a new


coalition agreement that you are going to discuss and negotiate with


the Conservatives for the second half of this Parliament. Is that


right? Again, that account - I haven't read it but I have been told


says two diametrically opposite things. One that we are plotting to


negotiate a new coalition and the next, we are plotting to get


out of the coalition. Let me tell you what we are actually planning to


do and let me be open about this. There's in secret about it. I


if you look at what the country has been through over the last few


years, the really kind of difficult circumstances we have been through,


there are millions of people who want a political party that


you can create a strong economy and a fair society, and don't like


told that you have to choose between one or the other. That's what


Liberal Democrats are about. We are a party of the head and the heart.


For a long, long time the left - this is really important, can I


finish - the left have said you can look after ordinary families but


then you end up bankrupting the economy. The right says you can sort


out the economy but let ordinary families. Evening we've got


to do both - I think we've got to both. That's political aspiration,


what I'm asking about is whether, for instance, your aide, Polly


Mackenzie I think her name is, has actually drawn up a list of new


things that you want to negotiate with the Conservatives during


Parliament for its second half. that true or not true? I haven't


seen that list, so I can't tell whether that's true. That's not


quite saying it's not true. I no idea, Andrew. It's the Liberal


Democrats, come on. I don't control what people do on their desktops


every single day. Let me tell you, the government's priority is to


deliver the coalition agreement most importantly to rescue


repair the economy. Can I just jump in there because you have actually


achieved some of the things that you wanted to do - A great deal.


your first agreement. Therefore people say it is time to do a second


agreement, move to the next and talk about things as parties


that you are going to agree. I agree with you and - in a sense


the means by which you do this, whether by a list or or there is


irrelevant. What do I think is necessary for this government to see


through to 2015, of course we are a coalition, we are parties


Dorchester identities, that's - different identities and at


conference time those identities become even more accentuated but to


be a successful government you to be a government with a common


purpose and that common purpose is firstly to sort out the economy and


secondly, this is certainly my great passion, to make sure


same time we give greater opportunity for people to get ahead.


What is called in the jargon social mobility. I think that kind of -


repair the economy but also a fairer society. The two go together. Is


there any part of you, looking the terrible economic circumstances


that may be ahead, that thinks actually we do need to go a little


slower and cut a little hastily? I think people who


advocate that need to think this through. So the answer is no? Does


anyone think you will create growth by next Tuesday by ripping up the


plan? You would create more unemployment and market panic.


The pollster, Philip Gould, was one The pollster, Philip Gould, was one


of the key architects of He was recruited in the


Peter Mandelson and brought in new ideas, most notably focus groups,


asking the public detailed questions about politics to broaden


appeal. He was crucial to Tony Blair's election victories. He has


just published an analysis of Labour which has long been required


reading for politicians of all parties but the past few years have


been dominated by a very different battle, against cancer of the


oesophagus. Despite gruelling treatment, that cancer has now


recurred and he now not recover. I met Philip Gould at


his home. I hope you will agree that what follows is a remarkable and


rather unusual interview for political programme like this. But


first, I asked him about Tony Blair's leadership style. He says it


was like "driving down the centre of the road very fast, pushing


everything else to one side", but where, I asked, did they really know


Tony did believe that values and an Tony did believe that values and an


explicit sense of purpose should be kept for the most part quiet. He


really did have a Church and State thing on this. He really thought his


private spiritual life was over and his public, pragmatic life was


over there. So that meant that much of his rhetoric, much of argument,


narrative, was focused on the pragmatic rather than the - What's


it all for? What's it all for, yes. Now, it is one of the big


my book, I think, that this failure. I do think that leadership


depends on purpose. I think that individuals depend on purpose,


think that politics depend on purpose. I think that in this world


that is so chaotic and so disordered, without purpose you


lost. It's an essential part of leadership now and I don't think he


did that absolutely perfectly. In your diaries, there's the accounts


of the arguments, the now famous endless arguments between Gordon


Brown and Tony Blair. Yes. Go and on and on, and were clearly so


destructive of energy and purpose, and so on? Yes. Was that just an


inevitable clash of two very, very different personalities,


different world views that was never going to be harmoniously reconciled?


I think what happened there was this, that Gordon did believe that


he would come to be leader Labour Party and that the supporters


around him I suppose believed that even more. They were so close, so


close working together. You would go into their office, and you would be


met by a kind of a wall of energy. Yes. Piling towards you, and


would both be on their computers, there would be papers everywhere,


bits of sock, bits of this everywhere, it was a completely


chaotic sense, but a sense of huge, huge energy. Tony and Gordon were


just remarkable in those days. It was incredible. And they were close


too. Increasingly close, I think. So they were almost one person.


Certainly felt like brothers to me. And yet there would be only one


person and as it went on increasingly it was going to be


Tony. I knew it would be Tony. Others knew it would be Tony. But


it's hard to tell Gordon because he is on the one hand a very tough


individual but a very individual too and it just was too


much for him and it grew from there. Can we turn to talk about your


cancer. Yes. And how that in many ways meshes with the politics


you have been describing. Because you've had three major recurrences


but right at the beginning you chose to go private in America. I think


later on you came to think that actually the NHS might have been


better choice? Yes. That's so. I talk to a lot of people in the


and they said: look, if the best place to go is at Sloane-Kettering.


In New York? Yes, and the level of quality was good, but then about


year or two years later it clearly had returned. So you go up to


Newcastle and you are confronted or you meet this excellent surgeon.


Yes. Who as it happened had been at school with Tony Blair. Yes.


was vehemently pro-NHS, not very keen on southerners, you said, not


very keen on private health? No, his position was basically:


anti-Southerner, anti-private, anti-New Labour. But the quality of


nursing there, the quality of care, the quality of the surgery was


outstanding. So in the end the NHS had the best place, not the


States? No, the NHS had the place here, for sure. So where are


you now in terms of the cancer? Where we are now is this, that we


went on holiday with Gail, and this was such an important moment


She was packing her stuff weeks in She was packing her stuff weeks in


advance. It was so important that we went on holiday for once. And


we would go to sort of have and Gail would be saying "Eat more,


eat more, eat more", because she knew I was thinning and I was eating


it but I saw my weight going down. If your weight goes down, your


eating is problematic. I had one or two other symptoms too. So I came


back, called the Marsden up, went in for a blood test and they phoned up


and said your blood tumour mark has gone up from 5% two or three weeks


ago to 58%, and at that point that's it. I knew that was it. I


Gail up and she said "That's it", and so we knew. They called us in


and they said: look, lymph nodes here, it's in the lymph


nodes there, it's going to tin nodes there, it's going


nodes there, it's going to continue and you will never get clear of this


now. I said: how long to live? Professor Cunningham said "Three


months." Then Gail months." Then Gail - the worst case


was three months. Gail the best case? And he said "Three


months". This time, it was clear. I was in a different place, a death


zone, where there was such an intensity, such a power, and


apparently this is normal. So even though obviously I would rather


be in this position, it is the extraordinary time of my life,


certainly the most important time my life. You said an extraordinary


thing before about this, which is being in the death zone you would


not have chosen this, but you wouldn't want to walk away from it.


No, no. And you wouldn't have wanted to die as the person that you


were before the recurrence of cancer. No, that was certainly true


in the early - it's certainly true that after the first recurrence,


had not wish to have died the I was. But when you get to the final


stage, the death zone, you are dealing with something which is so


intense. I mean, I look out of the window and I feel the intensity. The


intensity of my wife, the intensity of my family; that is it the natural


place to be. To leave this now, to leave this extraordinary place now,


I would not want to do that. This is the final place.


And the right place for me at this And the right place for me at this


time is to be in the final place. Can I ask you one other


about that? Yes. Which is something that your wife Gail


to you, that politics, being involved in politics, was somehow


connected to your cancer, that the nastiness of politics and the


aggression of politics had somehow contributed to your cancer.


think that's true. What would have been better for me would have been


to have said: I'll do what I can do, which I do quite well, and then just


push it back a little bit. Of course, the other side of it is that


it's only because I am obsessive and a nut case when it comes to politics


that I've done what I've done. What would you say, as, as it were, a


testamental thought to Ed and the Labour Party as it is now?


I think at one and the same time he has to have a strategy that deals


with the hard end of it. I mean, really does have to nail down the


economy, and I am sure he will. And make sure we are the party of the


economy. He has to nail down responsibility and make us the party


of the responsible electorate, and I think he has to.


think he has to be tough in the way that he deals with some of these


issues. I think that is the combination that wins the election.


And it would be a good thing for Labour if thinks brother was able to


be alongside him in this journey? Well, I would very much like that


and I think what better epitaph for the whole book really, as a book


that starts with the angularity and the difficulty with the relationship


between two almost brothers, ending in I hope friendship between


I think that may well happen. I - I think that may well happen. I -


look, I lived under - I was born under a Labour government. And I am


determined to die under a Labour government. Obviously will have


get a move on, but that is what I want to happen. But I


message is: have faith. And try change the world.


Philip Gould, whose journey with Philip Gould, whose journey with


cancer has changed him in good ways as well as bad. You can see a


version of that interview on website. Now back to London with


Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has


said he doesn't think it's morally or economically right to get rid of


the 50p rate of tax at the moment. He said he would block its abolition


until it's replaced with another form of tax on wealthy people such


as a property tax. Prayers will be said across South


Wales today in memory of the four men who died in the flooded Gleision


Colliery. An appeal fund set yesterday to help the bereaved


families has already raised �20,000. That's all from me, now back to


Andrew in Birmingham. Many thanks. Well, she was born just


up the road from here Wolverhampton and got her


introduction to gospel music in Church there. Beverley Knight, you


are a great standard-bearer for British soul. Thank you.


to us why British soul is different from American soul. Well, in terms


of what you hear, it's massively influenced by the black diaspora,


people coming from Africa with their rhythms and then people like


parents coming from the West Indies with the reggae and syncopated


rhythms driven heavily by bass so that pretty much weighs up the


difference between that and the American sound which doesn't have


that back ground. You are going give us something by a British song


writer? Absolutely, George Michael. One of the best. We will enjoy that


in just a much indeed for now. It is time


me to exit, I am afraid. Join us again next week when we are back


the usual time of 9.00 when we will be in Liverpool for the Labour


conference, talking to the Opposition, Ed Miliband. Until


then we leave you with Beverley Knight and George Michael's song,


# I've had enough of danger # I've had enough of danger


# And people on the streets # I'm looking out for angels


# Yeah # Just trying to find some peace


# Now I think it's time # You'll let me know


# So when you say that you love me # You'll never, never leave me


# I know you're wrong # You're not that strong


# Just let me go # Teacher


# There are things that I still have to learn


# And this last thing I have # Is my pride


# I don't want to learn to # Hold you, touch you


# Think that you're mine # 'Cos it ain't no joy


Live from the Liberal Democrat Party Conference in Birmingham, Andrew Marr's guests include Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, Pakistani politician and former cricketer Imran Khan, and a performance by soul singer Beverley Knight.

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