18/09/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


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18/09/2011

Andrew Marr's guests at the Liberal Democrat Party Conference include deputy prime minister Nick Clegg, Pakistani politician Imran Khan, and soul singer Beverley Knight.


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Good morning. The party conference Good morning. The party conference

:00:08.:00:11.

season, as reliable as the falling leaves, over the

:00:11.:00:14.

will be talking to the Labour and to the Prime Minister but

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we are here in Birmingham for the Liberal Democrats. A city, of

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course, with a great political tradition. Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem

:00:23.:00:27.

leader, told his party that it was here that Lloyd George, the great

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Liberal leader of the past, was nearly killed by a rioting,

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murderous mob. He only escaped by being dressed up by a policeman.

:00:37.:00:47.
:00:47.:01:13.

Nothing like that will happen to Clegg this week, we think.

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But these are tough times, with hard But these are tough times, with hard

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decisions for anyone in government. The economy is in trouble,

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unemployment's very high and Europe is fighting hard to keep its

:01:22.:01:27.

currency. Plans to kick-start the economy are to be announced

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Liberal Democrat ministers today I am going to be talking

:01:29.:01:33.

about all of that, about in politics and about his relations

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with the Conservatives. He has already told the Lib Dems here that

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his job is to be awkward, not make life easy for David Cameron.

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But this morning we also have a remarkable interview with one of the

:01:46.:01:50.

men who created and shaped Labour. The political strategist,

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Philip Gould, who says himself he is in the final phase of his long

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battle with cancer. He talks with extraordinary candour about the

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illness and about how it has caused him to re-examine every aspect

:02:03.:02:06.

his professional and his personal life.

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We hear also from the great We hear also from the great

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cricketing hero, Imran Khan, who is hoping that his Movement for Justice

:02:12.:02:15.

party will break through in Pakistan's next election,

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will have music from the soul singer Beverley Knight.

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Beverley is a local woman and she is Beverley is a local woman and she is

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a flag carrier for British of that, plus our usual paper

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this morning with the Lib Dem President, Tim Farron, and The Times

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sketch writer, Anne Treneman. But first the news from Riz Lateef in

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London. the Treasury Danny Alexander will

:02:43.:02:45.

today announce measure to say kick-start the economy. They will

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include a �500 million fund to deliver key infrastructure projects

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and create jobs. In a speech to Liberal Democrat conference in

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Birmingham, Danny Alexander will also announce the creation of more

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than 2,000 jobs at the Inland Revenue. The roles are designed to

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help staff clamp down on tax avoidance and evasion by the rich.

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Barack Obama is to propose a new minimum tax rate for anyone

:03:08.:03:11.

in the US who earns more than million dollars in a year. The White

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House says it will be part of a series of measures to be announced

:03:15.:03:19.

tomorrow, aimed at reducing America's budget deficit. Rugby

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America's budget deficit. America's budget deficit.

:03:20.:03:24.

Republicans have said they will Republicans have said they will

:03:24.:03:28.

oppose any plans to raise taxes. Pakistan's Prime Minister

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promised more help for flood victims in Sindh. Monsoon rains have

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submerged buildings, make of thousands of people homeless.

:03:37.:03:42.

Hundreds have been killed. Here, prayers will be said

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South Wales today in memory of the four men who died in the

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Gleision Colliery. An appeal fund set up yesterday to help

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bereaved families has already �20,000.

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The number of people kill indeed yesterday's crash at an air race in

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the United States has risen to nine. Eight of the dead were spectators

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who were struck when fighter plane crashed into their

:04:04.:04:08.

grandstand at the event in Reno, Nevada. A number of

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That's it, now back to Andrew in Now, front pages as usual. Here is

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Now, front pages as usual. Here is Now, front pages as usual. Here is

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That's it, now the Sunday Times, like a lot

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papers leading with the Liberal Democrats: Cable clamps down on top

:04:24.:04:28.

pay. That's lots of new inspectors, and so on, for people trying

:04:28.:04:32.

avoid the top rate of tax. The Sunday Telegraph, however, has

:04:32.:04:34.

story about Blair and Gaddafi's secret meetings, suggesting

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there was a lot more to the release of the Lockerbie bomber than we

:04:39.:04:44.

thought. It also says that Cameron aims to put the "great"

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Britain. The Independent on Sunday also has

:04:47.:04:51.

that that crackdown. 2,200 new tax

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inspectors to target the says. Here is the Observer: we will

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fight ruthless Tory extremists, the Lib Dems. Getting very excited

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Sunday Express. Thieves strip the UK Sunday Express. Thieves strip the UK

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bare. That's just power lines, a of theft of going on around the

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country. And finally let's have the Mail on Sunday: two days' pay to

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party on your tax. That's not a newspaper offer, that's a story

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about civil servants taking extra paid holidays to attend an

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alcohol-fuelled sports event. Farron and Anne Treneman but

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for coming in to review the papers. Where will you start? Utterly

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staggered, Andrew, that picked out the Lib Dem conference.

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This is an interesting story I think it kind of puts a slight

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opinion about our problems, like. The Liberal Democrats have cut

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tax for the lowest paid and anybody on a lower and middle-income will

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get - already getting a tax cut. That tax will get bigger as the

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Parliament goes on and yet the headline here in the Observer

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that our tax plan will benefit the rich and not help the poor. This is

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a think-tank, isn't it? Yes, PPR. And that's what they think?

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Allegedly it is what they think I am sure they do think it.

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kind of true in a way. Well, it does, obviously if you are

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earning money then you pay tax. you are earning above a certain

:06:24.:06:28.

amount. If there is a tax cut at the bottom of course it works its way

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up. What the Lib Dems made sure of all the same is that you don't get

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that tax cut if you are on the 40 50% rate. So yes, it does help

:06:35.:06:39.

people on middle-incomes and we are not ashamed of that but obviously it

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helps people on low incomes as well. The point that is fair and it

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need to be tackled, that is made here, is that if you are not earning

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the minimum wage and if you are not working at all, or if indeed you are

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on part-time work and therefore earning perhaps less than 10,000 a

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year then this doesn't help you. OK. Having said all that,

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majority of people in that position are pensioners, they've got the

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biggest rise in 30 years, not that it feels like it at the moment.

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have chosen a related story here? Yes, I love this story because

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Lib Dems, you do love to hate the rich, don't you, and so now there's

:07:16.:07:26.
:07:26.:07:26.

a new team being announced here called a Affluence Team. I love this

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idea that they will drive round in Bentleys looking for other people in

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Bentleys to - I just love the idea of this team. I never know if this

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stuff ever, ever happens. You read about it and think - It needs to.

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The point is, very quickly, title is laughable, I agree.

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do you mean "very quickly"? Well, yes, but the point is this. A lot of

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newspapers get wound up about people claiming benefits that they

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shouldn't be doing but there is much more money lost every year from

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wealthy people who find clever and not necessarily legal ways of

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avoiding tax. We were told this at the last Liberal

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conference, it was announced then and reannounced now. It's a funny

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atmosphere because talking to people last night, this is a

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for years and years has loved hate the Tories and now suddenly

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wake up in bed with them and you are not quite sure whether to have a go

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at them, mock them publicly. Clegg had a good joke about you

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having five Cabinet ministers or if you include Ken Clarke. Indeed.

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You are not quite sure how to deal with these people

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you? All of us have a difficulty getting used to coalition. It's not

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normal, not in England anyway. The Lib Dems probably have least trouble

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with it of all the parties but it's still difficult because here we are,

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most normal grown-up compromise and get on with people

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they don't agree with. Yes. And politicians don't. It's a new thing.

:08:54.:08:59.

So yes, there are psychological difficulties, shall we say. Are you

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saying politicians aren't grown up? Mostly not, no. Most don't behave

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like it. Your colleague Matthew Paris, Anne, had a good

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week where he said this conference season the public aren't

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going to want to see political points scoring in the old way.

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Things are too serious actually for that. Yes, well, dream on is all I

:09:20.:09:27.

can say. We have to tax the rich. Whatever. Yes. You know, attack

:09:27.:09:31.

makes news, obviously. Yes, consensus isn't interesting and it's

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a shame because it is actually we need. Above all, if you got one

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thing out of Nick Clegg this week, what would you want to hear, Tim?

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Again I think distinctiveness the Liberal Democrats but we can't

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be so distinctive that we undermine the coalition because

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line is, even if we don't get credit for it, it's important the country

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is stably governed. So distinction about tax and also human rights?

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Distinctive but not too distinctive. Distinctive and not destructive, if

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that's the right way of putting it. We want to be spiky and ourselves,

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we don't want people to think we've become something we are not.

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Human Rights Act? It's totemic. It's not about rescuing us from the

:10:15.:10:18.

mess we are in financially but it about defending the kind of

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we are. The background to this is that a lot of people, including a

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lot of Conservative ministers, think that the Human Rights Act is getting

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in the way of dealing with the aftermath of the riots, dealing with

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criminal people, dealing with problem families, and so on, and

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there's a review of it to see bits testify could be stripped out -

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bits of it could be stripped out? There is. There is a lot of rot for

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one thing. If we have to join anything for those problems it is an

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US litigation-style culture which would happen with or

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Human Rights Act but the Act is not there to protect nefarious

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characters, it's there to put black and white traditional British

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liberties. If we are to go around rightly I think supporting those,

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for example, involved in the Arab spring and trying to uphold

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desire for justice and human rights, how ludicrous for us to be

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undermining our own at home. So that's a red line? I would say so,

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yes. Absolutely. Yes. I have a line of my own. This is a survey

:11:15.:11:19.

reported in the Sunday Times. I think that Lord Ashcroft actually

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has something to do with it so the results aren't perhaps that

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surprising but hilarious surprising but hilarious asking what

:11:28.:11:32.

people thought of various party leaders. David Cameron has a picture

:11:32.:11:38.

of lion here, the only person who has come out with anything

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resembling leadership. The picture of him is a bull in a china shop.

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Poor Nick Clegg, he has a puppet here and then a little kitten.

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is the picture that they think Nick Clegg. Yes. They asked people

:11:54.:11:58.

phrases that they associated Nick Clegg and one of them was

:11:58.:12:02.

"drowning man". That's not very nice. It's very bad. Speaking

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not very nice, there's a piece about you, Tim: Lib Dem leadership

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plotter. Yes. It's a gay smear story. I'm trying to find the

:12:14.:12:18.

accuracy in there because I am not leadership plotter and the gay smear

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thing is very - this is an old story about a story that wasn't a story.

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It's the kind of thing that you guys have to put up with the whole time?

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It is. In January of this year paperback home printed a

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a person put away for two years for blackmailing an anonymous person

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over their secret gay life. Some very pleasant person put it

:12:40.:12:44.

the lobby that that person was That is not the case. This two-day

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flurry in January/February and then they found out unpleasantly who

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person was so they went quiet and for some reason the Mail decided to

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unearth it now. It's distressing it's life. Over to something

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more scary, however, Anne. been worried all morning about

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particular story which is in Observer? Well, this is about

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spiders. I don't know, I just there are spiders everywhere,

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literally. There are. Coming of the woodwork. It is. There are

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spiders under the woodwork. There was a damp spring, some more pollen,

:13:18.:13:22.

so more insects, so more baby spiders lived and now we have all

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these incredibly fat female pregnant spiders in the woodwork apparently.

:13:29.:13:39.

People are ringing up the British Tarantula Society, about these

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pregnant British spiders, there are just so many of them. I found that

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fascinating. That will produce more birds which will eat more spiders,

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and by evolution, that will produce more ornithologists. Darwin

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have approved of that. It's all good. The next story? The headline

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is in the Sunday Times: the stuff. It's basically a literary

:14:06.:14:15.
:14:16.:14:20.

story predicated on an interview with Robert Llewellyn, about the

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Arctic Monkeys who went over the head of the record companies and

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appealed straight to the this is the same thing where you

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have a set-up in Notting Hill you can pitch your work, your book,

:14:31.:14:37.

to the public directly. I think it seemed superbly democratic without

:14:37.:14:41.

going through the kind of prejudices of editorial process. And the

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boring stuff of people writing cheques to you either.

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possibly what you will miss out as well. OK, speaking of cheques

:14:48.:14:52.

and bouncing cheques, bouncing Greeks, the other huge story, of

:14:52.:14:56.

course, is the European economic crisis, fiscal crisis. Yes, I

:14:56.:15:06.

absolutely love this picture, which is spartans. We think so. There's

:15:06.:15:10.

a great quote, and this basically is quite depressing reading so

:15:10.:15:14.

don't want to be - it's just everything is sort of going down the

:15:14.:15:19.

pan basically. But there's a man here who is appropriately called Dr

:15:19.:15:23.

Doom, an economist - Is he really called Dr Doom? That's his

:15:23.:15:26.

nickname. He has another name. That's a shame. I wish he was

:15:26.:15:30.

Dr Doom. He is basically saying they have to do something. They

:15:30.:15:33.

finally have to do something. So Arsenal fans will also be

:15:33.:15:37.

this morning when they read some obscure team - I can't remember

:15:37.:15:44.

their name. I am a Blackburn Rovers name and we have quadrupled the

:15:44.:15:49.

number of our points this season by winning a game yesterday. Allegedly

:15:49.:15:52.

we had three shots and scored four goals. My point is this, about the

:15:52.:15:59.

media, even when we win, we are not interesting. It's "Arsenal lose

:15:59.:16:02.

again", nothing about our team who beat them. Thank you very

:16:02.:16:07.

indeed. Pretty fresh and parky morning as I came on that

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studio. Not heavy rain here in Birmingham, let's find out what's

:16:10.:16:14.

Thank you very much. For some of us Thank you very much. For some of us

:16:14.:16:18.

it was chilly but sunny morning. Others have already seen

:16:18.:16:21.

showers. Like yesterday it will be story of sunshine and

:16:21.:16:25.

through the day. Although Andrew said the rain not heavy at times,

:16:25.:16:30.

those showers are going to be pretty torrential. We could even see the

:16:30.:16:34.

odd rumble of thunder. A few changes this afternoon with showers slowly

:16:35.:16:38.

fading towards the west. Temperatures all in all a bit

:16:38.:16:41.

disappointing, even with a bit of sunshine many highs of around

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18C. Clearer skies overnight. Another chilly night tonight but we

:16:47.:16:51.

will see thicker cloud and rain arriving in Northern Ireland by

:16:51.:16:55.

dawn. Tomorrow in the west, and rain then moving

:16:55.:16:59.

Western Scotland, northwest and Wales and the southwestern

:16:59.:17:02.

corner. The best of the sunshine by the afternoon holding on to East

:17:02.:17:05.

Anglia and the southeast, so as a result here 20C but where we

:17:05.:17:08.

more cloud and the rain, temperatures more like 16 to 17C.

:17:08.:17:14.

More details on the weather for the week ahead by going online.

:17:14.:17:16.

Many thanks. Pakistan is a deeply Many thanks. Pakistan is a deeply

:17:16.:17:17.

troubled country, currently troubled country, currently

:17:17.:17:19.

Many thanks. Pakistan is a suffering again from terrible

:17:19.:17:23.

flooding. It's also known for a great deal of political

:17:23.:17:28.

and violence. It was once a partner of the West on

:17:28.:17:32.

so-called war on terror but now distrusted by the Americans

:17:32.:17:36.

Osama Bin Laden was discovered there. Imran Khan has just published

:17:36.:17:43.

A Personal History of his country in which he is scathing about policy in

:17:43.:17:47.

Welcome. This is a book which says Welcome. This is a book which says

:17:47.:17:52.

in essence that Pakistan has pretty much the most corrupt

:17:52.:17:55.

political system in the world. That's a pretty high claim?

:17:56.:18:02.

this was going to happen, Andrew, because in the 2008 elections an

:18:02.:18:11.

amnesty was given to 8,000 of the biggest criminals in the country and

:18:11.:18:14.

not only were they given amnesty, they were allowed to contest

:18:14.:18:17.

elections and most are in right now. So when you

:18:17.:18:19.

criminals running a corruption goes through the roof,

:18:19.:18:29.
:18:29.:18:30.

and it's not even corruption, it's plunder right now. You famously

:18:30.:18:33.

created a free cancer hospital, have done a lot of that kind of

:18:33.:18:36.

philanthropic work and you hope that your political party's time

:18:36.:18:41.

have come but you are starting from a very small base, if I can put it

:18:41.:18:44.

politely, and you are up against people with huge amounts of money

:18:44.:18:50.

and an old system of barons passing out seats? The last election we

:18:50.:18:53.

contested was nine years back. Since nine years the other parties have

:18:53.:18:56.

gone down in Pakistan, because of corruption. All the parties are in

:18:56.:19:02.

power in different provinces. As corruption rises, as discontent

:19:02.:19:06.

rises, there's insurgency throughout our western borders, there's target

:19:06.:19:11.

killing in Karachi, there are floods, so there's a total

:19:11.:19:16.

disillusion. Of the people from these old political parties, and so

:19:17.:19:21.

according to all the polls my is now the number one party in

:19:21.:19:24.

Pakistan and I'm confident that this will be the biggest upset

:19:24.:19:30.

Pakistan because the young people all want a change. We are sitting

:19:30.:19:34.

in Birmingham, a lot of people in Britain, particularly in

:19:34.:19:37.

the Midlands and so on, is it important for a politician like you

:19:38.:19:41.

to come over to Britain and talk to Pakistanis here as well, as part of

:19:41.:19:46.

the campaign? Yes, it is, there are 6 million overseas

:19:46.:19:52.

Pakistanis. Their GDP is equal to 180 million Pakistanis, and they

:19:52.:19:57.

find not only us political parties but, whenever you want, when you

:19:57.:20:00.

the system there, the governance system, the biggest investment will

:20:00.:20:04.

come from overseas Pakistanis just like in China and in India. It

:20:04.:20:11.

the expatriate community, the overseas Chinese and Indians who

:20:11.:20:15.

helped in their development. So hope lies in the overseas Pakistanis

:20:15.:20:18.

who when you fight corruption, fix the system, that's where the real

:20:18.:20:22.

money is going to come. Let's about the aftermath of the death

:20:22.:20:28.

Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan. When we talked in the programme to President

:20:28.:20:32.

Obama he was pretty withering and angry about the

:20:32.:20:35.

government's involvement in all of this or his suspicions about that.

:20:36.:20:40.

What's the feeling now in Pakistan, because it was a very bruising

:20:40.:20:44.

moment for both countries. Humiliating for Pakistanis.

:20:44.:20:47.

Humiliating that a country has lost 35,000 people dead, a country

:20:47.:20:52.

had nothing to do with 9/11, there were no Pakistanis

:20:52.:20:59.

Al-Qaeda was in Afghanistan. Then the economy has lost $70 billion.

:20:59.:21:03.

Total US aid is about $20 billion Total US aid is about $20 billion

:21:03.:21:06.

and 3.5 million refugees, internally displaced people. So a country that

:21:06.:21:10.

has given such sacrifices. In the end, for us Pakistanis, whatever the

:21:10.:21:17.

government role we don't know, to be called by the CIA chief either

:21:17.:21:27.
:21:27.:21:28.

Pakistan was incompetent, or they were complicit, I think that was the

:21:28.:21:31.

most humiliating thing for Pakistanis. And David Cameron here

:21:31.:21:38.

said Pakistan was facing both ways. Exactly. That's why people

:21:38.:21:44.

it is a wrong war, we should not have gone into it. As western

:21:44.:21:50.

forces pull back in Afghanistan, doesn't that simply push the fight

:21:50.:21:54.

against the remaining part of Al-Qaeda into

:21:54.:21:56.

You have these drone attacks, and so on, at the moment? We have drone

:21:56.:21:59.

attacks but they are totally counterproductive. All they do

:22:00.:22:05.

they kill suspected militants, their family, but these are quickly

:22:05.:22:09.

replaced by more people. Every year the violence has grown. These have

:22:09.:22:13.

failed to - these are failed policies. They failed in

:22:13.:22:16.

Afghanistan, they are failing in Pakistan. The answer lies in a

:22:16.:22:20.

political settlement. There is no military settlement. Yes. Your

:22:20.:22:26.

critics say that you come across very well and all the rest of it but

:22:26.:22:30.

you have become quite a tough Islamist yourself. Anyone who just

:22:30.:22:36.

does not go along with the US is either with us or against us.

:22:36.:22:41.

You've got to become either a right wing or a hardliner. I objected to

:22:41.:22:46.

this insane war on terror. You don't fight a war on terror with bombs and

:22:46.:22:51.

F16s and helicopter gunships in villages where innocent people are

:22:51.:22:55.

getting killed many it's just exacerbating the situation. So

:22:55.:23:02.

anyone who pulls this policy becomes an Islamist. This is a ridiculous

:23:02.:23:06.

thing. The issue will never settled militarily. Any expert now

:23:06.:23:10.

knows, anyone, your exambassador says exactly the same thing. All

:23:10.:23:15.

right, Imran Khan, thank you very much indeed for joining us today.

:23:15.:23:18.

Now, from the general election Now, from the general election

:23:18.:23:22.

adulation of "I agree with Nick", to having dog dirt shoved through his

:23:23.:23:25.

letterbox, it has been to say the least a rollercoaster

:23:25.:23:29.

Deputy Prime Minister. This week one newspaper claimed he had promised

:23:29.:23:32.

his wife he would only serve one term. Whether that's true or not,

:23:32.:23:37.

has got some huge decisions ahead of him as the coalition struggles with

:23:37.:23:42.

hard times. Nick Clegg joins Good morning. Morning. Let's talk

:23:42.:23:47.

to start with about hard times. We have the euro crisis. Yes. All

:23:47.:23:53.

around us. The latest figures suggest that we may either have a

:23:53.:23:57.

completely flat period in the economy, or things might actually

:23:57.:24:02.

return to recession. So talk us through just how bad you think, how

:24:02.:24:06.

worried you are about the economy first of all. I think the

:24:06.:24:10.

is very serious. We are a very open economy, we are hugely dependent

:24:11.:24:14.

what happens around us, on the eurozone. 40% of

:24:14.:24:18.

and more go into the eurozone, so if things are spluttering there,

:24:18.:24:21.

they are very seriously, then of course that affects us massively,

:24:21.:24:25.

which is why it's hugely in our national interest to make sure that

:24:25.:24:29.

the eurozone is strong. But that doesn't mean there aren't things we

:24:29.:24:32.

can do at home. Of course we balancing the books, everyone knows

:24:32.:24:36.

that, we are reducing the burden on businesses, less red tape, less tax,

:24:36.:24:40.

but I think there are more things we can do to create jobs today

:24:40.:24:44.

build for tomorrow. That's why last week I made a speech about how we

:24:44.:24:48.

are giving priority to infrastructure projects. San sand

:24:48.:24:51.

today has talk - Danny Alexander today has talked about

:24:51.:24:55.

being set aside for local infrastructure projects. What does

:24:55.:24:58.

infrastructure mean? Broadband, housing, road, rails. And

:24:58.:25:01.

Cable has been also talking about the need to do that, to really make

:25:01.:25:04.

sure that we foster confidence we can, even though, you are right,

:25:04.:25:08.

the wider context is really tough. I want to come back to the wider

:25:08.:25:12.

context in a minute but there's simple question which is: you are

:25:12.:25:17.

cutting expenditure, taxes high in order to balance the books,

:25:17.:25:22.

so where possibly is the money going to come from for the kind of

:25:22.:25:24.

substantial infrastructure projects that would actually get unemployment

:25:24.:25:28.

down? Let me first - a little of perspective. We as a government

:25:28.:25:35.

are still spending �700 billion a year, that is - hang on - Nobody

:25:35.:25:38.

understands what that means, the trouble. No, the thing is

:25:39.:25:42.

is this ludicrous caricature that because we are balancing the books

:25:42.:25:45.

government can't do anything, that somehow we are turning the clock

:25:45.:25:50.

back to the 1980s or 30s. As proportion of wealth this

:25:51.:25:53.

will be spending more in public spending after all these

:25:53.:25:56.

end of this Parliament than Blair and Gordon Brown were when

:25:56.:26:00.

they came into power so there's a lot that government can still do,

:26:00.:26:03.

not only through direct spending on broadband, on housing, on road, on

:26:03.:26:06.

rail, but some of the We are setting up the first

:26:06.:26:09.

Investment Bank, which is investment bank which takes public

:26:09.:26:13.

money, taxpayers' money, and then gets private investors' money

:26:13.:26:17.

for instance, renewable energy. That makes a big difference in actually

:26:17.:26:20.

creating jobs today but, as I say, building for the future as well.

:26:20.:26:24.

where does the money come from, for these big projects, and how much

:26:24.:26:28.

money will there be? There will be literally billions of pounds of

:26:28.:26:31.

investment, which we had already planned, but what we are

:26:31.:26:36.

is that the ones which stimulate growth most effectively now and

:26:36.:26:40.

help, for instance, employ young people who at the moment can't

:26:40.:26:44.

a job, that they are given priority. Give me some examples.

:26:44.:26:47.

We've already said that we are going to invest hundreds of millions of

:26:47.:26:50.

pounds into superfast broadband. That's a good thing for

:26:50.:26:54.

in the future, but you need to employ people to dig up the roads

:26:54.:26:59.

and actually put in the new cabling and the fibre-optic cables. This is

:26:59.:27:03.

not new money, this is have announced already? Let's be

:27:03.:27:06.

clear. Quite a lot of it is that was already in the system but

:27:06.:27:09.

crucially we will crucially we will actually by

:27:09.:27:13.

2014/15 be spending a little more on what they call capital spending,

:27:13.:27:17.

these big projects, than any previous government. So no

:27:17.:27:25.

money yet? If I can finish, through these new investments, we calculate

:27:25.:27:31.

about �18 billion of new money will go into building, for instance,

:27:31.:27:35.

renewable energy infrastructure during this Parliament. That is not

:27:35.:27:38.

to be sniffed at. Only �3 billion of that is taxpayers' money and what we

:27:38.:27:42.

use, we use that money to then make sure that the private sector brings

:27:42.:27:45.

in other money. Let me give you one other example. There's a regional

:27:45.:27:48.

growth fund, something I sort of preside over in government, which is

:27:48.:27:52.

there to allocate money to businesses who kind of might be

:27:52.:27:57.

thinking of investing in a new bit of kit in the factory floor or

:27:57.:28:00.

opening a new factory unit but a bit of a top-up to do that. We are

:28:00.:28:06.

using this �1.5 billion to do that; that's matching public taxpayers'

:28:06.:28:10.

money with private money common good. Yet you know that out

:28:10.:28:13.

there there are no signs of growth. The private sector is not racing to

:28:13.:28:16.

the rescue as you might hope indeed everyone is looking at

:28:16.:28:19.

global picture and shivering and retrenching, rather than

:28:19.:28:25.

more. Sure. So what else can you do? What about looking again at the

:28:25.:28:29.

tax system for small businesses? What about tearing up some of the

:28:29.:28:33.

old planning rules to make it easier for house builders and other

:28:33.:28:36.

to invest money? As you know, it's very controversial, but we

:28:36.:28:40.

actually saying that we do need to look at these very antiquated

:28:40.:28:45.

planning rules - And you are 100% against the sort of green England -

:28:45.:28:49.

Look, I think some frankly rather misleading claims are being made

:28:49.:28:52.

that we are going to destroy the greenbelt and so on, that

:28:52.:28:55.

people won't have their say. In respects local people will have more

:28:55.:28:58.

of a say. What we is that you can't have a situation,

:28:58.:29:02.

and we are pretty unique in this the developed world, where, if

:29:02.:29:05.

people want to get on with the development, it takes them years

:29:05.:29:09.

years and years and years to get permission. We haven't got years.

:29:09.:29:15.

We've got to get moving as a country because - Sure. Economists

:29:15.:29:18.

about numbers and percentages billions here and there. At the

:29:18.:29:22.

of the day this is about something much more elusive and delicate

:29:22.:29:25.

is just confidence. It's to get people to start building that

:29:25.:29:29.

first house, confidence that the business uses money they've got to

:29:29.:29:32.

create a new job, confidence to households to go out and spend a

:29:32.:29:36.

of money in the high street. OK. That's a delicate thing, it's

:29:36.:29:39.

affected by international circumstances over which we only

:29:39.:29:43.

have limited control, influence but not control, but we

:29:43.:29:46.

can also do things in the way that I've described to boost confidence

:29:46.:29:50.

at home. Let's talk about all to do with confidence

:29:50.:29:55.

rest of it, which is income tax. The Chancellor is looking at whether or

:29:55.:30:00.

not the 50p band of tax not the 50p band of tax actually

:30:00.:30:03.

raises any money at all. If he concludes that this is actually not

:30:03.:30:07.

bringing money into the Exchequer, and presumably putting some

:30:07.:30:13.

off at the top end, is it acceptable for that to go? If we discover that

:30:13.:30:18.

the 50p rate just hasn't raised money from the very wealthiest

:30:18.:30:22.

it was supposed to, clearly to look at other ways - And you

:30:22.:30:26.

not going to stop it going? Let me finish, then I of course think we

:30:26.:30:29.

should look at other ways the wealthiest would pay the amount

:30:30.:30:32.

expected through the 50p rate. This is a debate which isn't just

:30:32.:30:35.

happening in Westminster and political parties in Britain. Look

:30:35.:30:38.

at what President Obama has said. Sure. Overnight. Look at the

:30:38.:30:43.

in Germany, in Italy, in France, across the developed world, everyone

:30:43.:30:47.

accepts as I passionately believe, that when a lot of people on

:30:47.:30:50.

ordinary incomes are really finding it difficult to do the weekly shop,

:30:51.:30:55.

to pay these hugely inflated heating bills this winter, it simply would

:30:55.:30:58.

be incomprehensible to them, whatever the rate rises, to suddenly

:30:58.:31:01.

lower the tax burden on the very wealthiest. I understand that

:31:01.:31:05.

absolutely. What I'm trying to find out is what might then happen. You

:31:05.:31:11.

mentioned last night again the mansion tax. So, if the 50p rate

:31:11.:31:15.

to be dropped, are you would have to be a quid pro quo,

:31:15.:31:18.

something like the mansion tax to replace it? It's unfair on George

:31:19.:31:23.

Osborne for me to try and seek to write budgets now in a television

:31:23.:31:28.

studio. Sure, but the principles of different taxes? The principles are

:31:28.:31:31.

agreed across government and if you look at the budget statement George

:31:31.:31:34.

Osborne himself said going to look at the amount that the

:31:34.:31:36.

50p raises, but at the same are going to look at the way in

:31:37.:31:42.

which the very wealthiest and those in very high value properties pay

:31:42.:31:46.

their fair share so that was agreed across government and clearly these

:31:46.:31:49.

things are linked. Sorry, I just want to be absolutely

:31:49.:31:54.

this before we move on, that you will block, you would stop, any

:31:54.:31:59.

abolition of the 50p rate there was something else which

:31:59.:32:01.

raised money from the top earners? raised money from the top

:32:01.:32:07.

I have two pre-occupations. Firstly, I don't think it is morally or even

:32:07.:32:11.

economically right to unilaterally lower the tax burden on the very

:32:12.:32:15.

wealthiest when we haven't made more progress as I want us

:32:15.:32:19.

lowering taxes for the millions on ordinary incomes. That remains my

:32:19.:32:23.

principal concern. That's the I got written into the coalition

:32:23.:32:26.

agreement that our overriding tax priority was lowering

:32:26.:32:30.

on millions of people on low ordinary incomes. Secondly, and

:32:30.:32:35.

secondly, which is your point, which is that if the 50p does not raise

:32:35.:32:37.

money as we had hoped from the very, very wealthiest, remember

:32:37.:32:42.

the top 1%, not the middle classes, it's the top 1%, then of course

:32:42.:32:47.

need to look, and as the himself has said, we've got to look

:32:47.:32:50.

at other ways to ensure they pay their fair share. So it stays

:32:50.:32:55.

unless there is an alternative; yes or no? It stays unless we can first

:32:55.:33:00.

make more progress tax burden on people on lower and

:33:00.:33:03.

middle-incomes and secondly sure as the Chancellor himself has

:33:03.:33:10.

said, we can find other ways that the wealthiest pay their fair share.

:33:10.:33:12.

Just on tax generally, I think tax Just on tax generally, I think tax

:33:12.:33:15.

and benefits generally, you have one debate which is about the sort of

:33:15.:33:20.

cheats on the benefit system moment bottom and a lot of noise

:33:20.:33:22.

quite rightly quite rightly about how people get

:33:22.:33:25.

out of paying their fair the top. We have to remember that

:33:25.:33:28.

the real pre-occupation should what happens to those millions of

:33:28.:33:32.

people on ordinary incomes, and middle-incomes. They often get

:33:32.:33:35.

overlooked in this debate about what happens, the benefits system at the

:33:35.:33:38.

bottom, the wealthiest at the top. The Liberal Democrats are there

:33:38.:33:41.

really support and be on the side of millions of people who play by the

:33:41.:33:46.

rules, work hard, pay their taxes and are feeling unenormous

:33:46.:33:50.

right now. A lot of Conservatives feel that those very same people,

:33:50.:33:55.

who are often the victims of the riots over the summer, are also

:33:55.:34:01.

furious about the way that criminals get off, about the fact that we

:34:01.:34:04.

can't send people out of the when they've come in here

:34:04.:34:07.

they've committed crimes, are looking more and more at

:34:07.:34:12.

Human Rights Act as something getting in the way. Again, there is

:34:12.:34:16.

a government research being done on the effect of the Human Rights Act

:34:16.:34:18.

to see if parts of that can be removed or watered down

:34:18.:34:23.

with in some other way for what they would say are common sense reasons

:34:23.:34:27.

that most people approve of. Look, anyone, any rational person looking

:34:27.:34:31.

at the people who have gone through the court system after the riots

:34:31.:34:35.

would say that the big problem not the Human Rights Act, it has

:34:35.:34:39.

nothing to do with the Human Rights Act; the big problem is that we have

:34:39.:34:43.

been far too soft on repeat crime this country for far, far too long.

:34:43.:34:48.

Lots and lots of these people actually it now turns out had a

:34:48.:34:51.

long, long criminal record. As as your arm. What has gone wrong is

:34:51.:34:54.

that, despite all the tough talk from Labour, pouring more and more

:34:54.:34:58.

people into the prison system, that has happened is they've come

:34:58.:35:02.

out again, our prisons have become colleges of crime and young

:35:02.:35:05.

offenders of today become hardened criminals of tomorrow. That's why

:35:05.:35:10.

I'm very supportive and excited about Ken Clarke's revolution - You

:35:10.:35:14.

called him a Liberal Democrat minister last night. I think he has

:35:14.:35:19.

got it absolutely right justice. Stop discussions about the

:35:19.:35:22.

Human Rights Act which has to do with the sentences passed. I

:35:22.:35:26.

think you just finished his career off as far as his party is

:35:26.:35:29.

concerned. Probably the kiss death. Let's keep talking about

:35:29.:35:33.

Europe, however. What's the message to those Conservative Eurosceptics

:35:33.:35:37.

who got together in a new organisation, they are talking to

:35:37.:35:41.

Labour Eurosceptics as well and we need to loosen our relationship

:35:41.:35:44.

now with Europe, we need to repatriate powers and they

:35:44.:35:47.

looking forward to a referendum before too long and we get another

:35:47.:35:50.

European Treaty. Sure, what is the strategic national interest for

:35:50.:35:56.

United Kingdom in the European Union? In my view unambiguous,

:35:56.:36:01.

probably the greatest achievement in recent years was ironically enough

:36:01.:36:06.

British achievement. It was British Commissioner, a guy who

:36:06.:36:09.

created the world's largest borderless single market.

:36:09.:36:11.

Margaret Thatcher's government, Conservative government that

:36:11.:36:15.

introduced the single European act that allowed British businesses here

:36:15.:36:19.

in Birmingham, in the Midlands, to invent things, manufacture things

:36:19.:36:21.

and then export them completely freely into the largest consumer

:36:21.:36:26.

market in the world. I personally think that our absolute overriding

:36:26.:36:30.

priority, if you want to protect jobs, communities, families, is to

:36:30.:36:37.

actually deepen and widen that liberal, open, free market right

:36:37.:36:41.

our doorstep. If instead what you do is you indulge in I think a complete

:36:41.:36:44.

distraction, which is sort of creating a top ten hit list of the

:36:44.:36:48.

specific directives you don't particularly like - by the way,

:36:48.:36:51.

there are directives that I don't technically like - you just miss the

:36:51.:36:54.

big picture which is that if eurozone, as I hope they will,

:36:54.:36:57.

stabilise things by basically getting their act together and

:36:57.:37:00.

integrating a bit further in certain ways to really make sure

:37:00.:37:04.

eurozone is a success, the last thing we should do is say: in

:37:04.:37:09.

case we wash our hands will enterprise and we will get out

:37:09.:37:14.

- the whole enterprise. That will destroy jobs and prosperity in this

:37:14.:37:16.

country. I think we should say in run for this we want

:37:16.:37:19.

into the single market which is still not complete. And you still

:37:19.:37:22.

want to join the euro? there is absolutely no question of

:37:22.:37:25.

this country joining the euro, certainly not during this

:37:25.:37:28.

government. To call that impossibility is to put it mildly.

:37:28.:37:31.

Absolutely, but in principle you still in favour of this currency,

:37:31.:37:36.

which is unravelling? No, I will tell you what I am in principle in

:37:36.:37:40.

favour of, people simply recognising geographical reality. We are in the

:37:40.:37:45.

Europe. We are not in Alaska. We are not on the other side of

:37:45.:37:49.

Atlantic. We are not nestled geographically next to China. Europe

:37:49.:37:53.

influences us. Whether you like EU or not it has a massive effect

:37:53.:37:57.

our everyday life and I want us, if you like, to have the kind of

:37:57.:38:01.

bulldog confidence of the British spirit to say, instead of constantly

:38:01.:38:04.

looking for excuses to get out of the game, get in there, shape it,

:38:05.:38:07.

influence it and do so in national interest. What is our

:38:07.:38:12.

plan? How are we going to react if Greece and possibly other countries

:38:12.:38:16.

are forced out of the are facing a dramatically worsening

:38:16.:38:20.

situation there? Look, I really, really hope it won't come to that

:38:20.:38:23.

because that's not only bad for the eurozone, as you rightly imply that

:38:23.:38:29.

has knock-on effects on the banking system across - But if it does?

:38:29.:38:32.

The world as a whole would need it take dramatic measures. It's one of

:38:32.:38:36.

the reasons both in the EU the G8 and G20, we are playing a

:38:36.:38:40.

very active role in saying the has to react in a co-ordinated

:38:40.:38:44.

fashion. We can't simply sit back and say that somehow what's going

:38:44.:38:47.

over there has nothing to do with us. It's all to do with us as well.

:38:47.:38:53.

OK. Your wife, we read, has a from you, that you are going to only

:38:53.:38:58.

serve one term. Is that true? Can I put this mildly? I really wouldn't

:38:58.:39:01.

believe a world you on Sunday. This is the paper that

:39:01.:39:05.

called me a Nazi. They have a bee in their bonnet about the

:39:05.:39:10.

the Liberal Democrats and they come up with drivel every single day. I'm

:39:10.:39:13.

in this because I believe it's the right thing to do. Miriam supports

:39:13.:39:18.

me fully in this and I want to us succeed in the coalition

:39:18.:39:22.

government and beyond. Let me explain why - Before we get there,

:39:22.:39:25.

asked you a very, very clear question. Are you in this for

:39:25.:39:28.

term only or do you intend Liberal Democrat

:39:28.:39:32.

intend to see it through term? Absolutely, I intend to see

:39:32.:39:36.

it well beyond one term, all right? There you go, Daily Mail, wrong.

:39:36.:39:40.

There's a surprise. That's very clear. In the same account, however,

:39:40.:39:46.

we also heard that your party done quite a lot of work on a new

:39:46.:39:50.

coalition agreement that you are going to discuss and negotiate with

:39:50.:39:53.

the Conservatives for the second half of this Parliament. Is that

:39:53.:39:56.

right? Again, that account - I haven't read it but I have been told

:39:56.:40:01.

says two diametrically opposite things. One that we are plotting to

:40:01.:40:04.

negotiate a new coalition and the next, we are plotting to get

:40:04.:40:07.

out of the coalition. Let me tell you what we are actually planning to

:40:07.:40:10.

do and let me be open about this. There's in secret about it. I

:40:10.:40:13.

if you look at what the country has been through over the last few

:40:13.:40:17.

years, the really kind of difficult circumstances we have been through,

:40:17.:40:21.

there are millions of people who want a political party that

:40:21.:40:26.

you can create a strong economy and a fair society, and don't like

:40:26.:40:30.

told that you have to choose between one or the other. That's what

:40:30.:40:34.

Liberal Democrats are about. We are a party of the head and the heart.

:40:34.:40:38.

For a long, long time the left - this is really important, can I

:40:38.:40:41.

finish - the left have said you can look after ordinary families but

:40:41.:40:46.

then you end up bankrupting the economy. The right says you can sort

:40:46.:40:50.

out the economy but let ordinary families. Evening we've got

:40:50.:40:54.

to do both - I think we've got to both. That's political aspiration,

:40:54.:40:58.

what I'm asking about is whether, for instance, your aide, Polly

:40:58.:41:01.

Mackenzie I think her name is, has actually drawn up a list of new

:41:01.:41:04.

things that you want to negotiate with the Conservatives during

:41:04.:41:07.

Parliament for its second half. that true or not true? I haven't

:41:07.:41:12.

seen that list, so I can't tell whether that's true. That's not

:41:12.:41:16.

quite saying it's not true. I no idea, Andrew. It's the Liberal

:41:16.:41:21.

Democrats, come on. I don't control what people do on their desktops

:41:21.:41:25.

every single day. Let me tell you, the government's priority is to

:41:25.:41:28.

deliver the coalition agreement most importantly to rescue

:41:28.:41:32.

repair the economy. Can I just jump in there because you have actually

:41:32.:41:39.

achieved some of the things that you wanted to do - A great deal.

:41:39.:41:43.

your first agreement. Therefore people say it is time to do a second

:41:43.:41:46.

agreement, move to the next and talk about things as parties

:41:46.:41:49.

that you are going to agree. I agree with you and - in a sense

:41:49.:41:54.

the means by which you do this, whether by a list or or there is

:41:54.:41:59.

irrelevant. What do I think is necessary for this government to see

:41:59.:42:03.

through to 2015, of course we are a coalition, we are parties

:42:03.:42:06.

Dorchester identities, that's - different identities and at

:42:06.:42:10.

conference time those identities become even more accentuated but to

:42:10.:42:13.

be a successful government you to be a government with a common

:42:13.:42:16.

purpose and that common purpose is firstly to sort out the economy and

:42:16.:42:19.

secondly, this is certainly my great passion, to make sure

:42:19.:42:23.

same time we give greater opportunity for people to get ahead.

:42:23.:42:30.

What is called in the jargon social mobility. I think that kind of -

:42:30.:42:34.

repair the economy but also a fairer society. The two go together. Is

:42:34.:42:37.

there any part of you, looking the terrible economic circumstances

:42:37.:42:42.

that may be ahead, that thinks actually we do need to go a little

:42:42.:42:47.

slower and cut a little hastily? I think people who

:42:47.:42:53.

advocate that need to think this through. So the answer is no? Does

:42:53.:42:58.

anyone think you will create growth by next Tuesday by ripping up the

:42:58.:43:01.

plan? You would create more unemployment and market panic.

:43:01.:43:06.

The pollster, Philip Gould, was one The pollster, Philip Gould, was one

:43:06.:43:10.

of the key architects of He was recruited in the

:43:10.:43:14.

Peter Mandelson and brought in new ideas, most notably focus groups,

:43:14.:43:19.

asking the public detailed questions about politics to broaden

:43:19.:43:26.

appeal. He was crucial to Tony Blair's election victories. He has

:43:26.:43:32.

just published an analysis of Labour which has long been required

:43:32.:43:35.

reading for politicians of all parties but the past few years have

:43:35.:43:38.

been dominated by a very different battle, against cancer of the

:43:38.:43:42.

oesophagus. Despite gruelling treatment, that cancer has now

:43:42.:43:45.

recurred and he now not recover. I met Philip Gould at

:43:46.:43:49.

his home. I hope you will agree that what follows is a remarkable and

:43:49.:43:52.

rather unusual interview for political programme like this. But

:43:52.:43:56.

first, I asked him about Tony Blair's leadership style. He says it

:43:56.:43:59.

was like "driving down the centre of the road very fast, pushing

:43:59.:44:03.

everything else to one side", but where, I asked, did they really know

:44:03.:44:13.

Tony did believe that values and an Tony did believe that values and an

:44:13.:44:18.

explicit sense of purpose should be kept for the most part quiet. He

:44:18.:44:24.

really did have a Church and State thing on this. He really thought his

:44:24.:44:28.

private spiritual life was over and his public, pragmatic life was

:44:28.:44:37.

over there. So that meant that much of his rhetoric, much of argument,

:44:37.:44:42.

narrative, was focused on the pragmatic rather than the - What's

:44:42.:44:46.

it all for? What's it all for, yes. Now, it is one of the big

:44:46.:44:52.

my book, I think, that this failure. I do think that leadership

:44:52.:44:56.

depends on purpose. I think that individuals depend on purpose,

:44:56.:45:01.

think that politics depend on purpose. I think that in this world

:45:01.:45:04.

that is so chaotic and so disordered, without purpose you

:45:04.:45:12.

lost. It's an essential part of leadership now and I don't think he

:45:12.:45:17.

did that absolutely perfectly. In your diaries, there's the accounts

:45:17.:45:21.

of the arguments, the now famous endless arguments between Gordon

:45:21.:45:28.

Brown and Tony Blair. Yes. Go and on and on, and were clearly so

:45:28.:45:34.

destructive of energy and purpose, and so on? Yes. Was that just an

:45:34.:45:37.

inevitable clash of two very, very different personalities,

:45:37.:45:42.

different world views that was never going to be harmoniously reconciled?

:45:42.:45:45.

I think what happened there was this, that Gordon did believe that

:45:45.:45:53.

he would come to be leader Labour Party and that the supporters

:45:53.:45:57.

around him I suppose believed that even more. They were so close, so

:45:57.:46:03.

close working together. You would go into their office, and you would be

:46:03.:46:11.

met by a kind of a wall of energy. Yes. Piling towards you, and

:46:11.:46:16.

would both be on their computers, there would be papers everywhere,

:46:16.:46:20.

bits of sock, bits of this everywhere, it was a completely

:46:20.:46:27.

chaotic sense, but a sense of huge, huge energy. Tony and Gordon were

:46:27.:46:33.

just remarkable in those days. It was incredible. And they were close

:46:33.:46:43.
:46:43.:46:45.

too. Increasingly close, I think. So they were almost one person.

:46:45.:46:52.

Certainly felt like brothers to me. And yet there would be only one

:46:52.:46:57.

person and as it went on increasingly it was going to be

:46:57.:47:04.

Tony. I knew it would be Tony. Others knew it would be Tony. But

:47:04.:47:09.

it's hard to tell Gordon because he is on the one hand a very tough

:47:09.:47:12.

individual but a very individual too and it just was too

:47:12.:47:17.

much for him and it grew from there. Can we turn to talk about your

:47:17.:47:21.

cancer. Yes. And how that in many ways meshes with the politics

:47:21.:47:27.

you have been describing. Because you've had three major recurrences

:47:27.:47:33.

but right at the beginning you chose to go private in America. I think

:47:34.:47:37.

later on you came to think that actually the NHS might have been

:47:37.:47:43.

better choice? Yes. That's so. I talk to a lot of people in the

:47:43.:47:50.

and they said: look, if the best place to go is at Sloane-Kettering.

:47:51.:47:57.

In New York? Yes, and the level of quality was good, but then about

:47:57.:48:02.

year or two years later it clearly had returned. So you go up to

:48:02.:48:09.

Newcastle and you are confronted or you meet this excellent surgeon.

:48:09.:48:14.

Yes. Who as it happened had been at school with Tony Blair. Yes.

:48:14.:48:18.

was vehemently pro-NHS, not very keen on southerners, you said, not

:48:18.:48:24.

very keen on private health? No, his position was basically:

:48:24.:48:28.

anti-Southerner, anti-private, anti-New Labour. But the quality of

:48:28.:48:31.

nursing there, the quality of care, the quality of the surgery was

:48:31.:48:36.

outstanding. So in the end the NHS had the best place, not the

:48:36.:48:41.

States? No, the NHS had the place here, for sure. So where are

:48:41.:48:45.

you now in terms of the cancer? Where we are now is this, that we

:48:45.:48:50.

went on holiday with Gail, and this was such an important moment

:48:50.:48:55.

She was packing her stuff weeks in She was packing her stuff weeks in

:48:55.:49:02.

advance. It was so important that we went on holiday for once. And

:49:02.:49:07.

we would go to sort of have and Gail would be saying "Eat more,

:49:08.:49:12.

eat more, eat more", because she knew I was thinning and I was eating

:49:12.:49:17.

it but I saw my weight going down. If your weight goes down, your

:49:18.:49:22.

eating is problematic. I had one or two other symptoms too. So I came

:49:22.:49:28.

back, called the Marsden up, went in for a blood test and they phoned up

:49:28.:49:34.

and said your blood tumour mark has gone up from 5% two or three weeks

:49:34.:49:37.

ago to 58%, and at that point that's it. I knew that was it. I

:49:37.:49:42.

Gail up and she said "That's it", and so we knew. They called us in

:49:42.:49:46.

and they said: look, lymph nodes here, it's in the lymph

:49:46.:49:50.

nodes there, it's going to tin nodes there, it's going

:49:50.:49:55.

nodes there, it's going to continue and you will never get clear of this

:49:55.:50:02.

now. I said: how long to live? Professor Cunningham said "Three

:50:03.:50:08.

months." Then Gail months." Then Gail - the worst case

:50:09.:50:13.

was three months. Gail the best case? And he said "Three

:50:13.:50:21.

months". This time, it was clear. I was in a different place, a death

:50:21.:50:28.

zone, where there was such an intensity, such a power, and

:50:28.:50:32.

apparently this is normal. So even though obviously I would rather

:50:32.:50:37.

be in this position, it is the extraordinary time of my life,

:50:37.:50:40.

certainly the most important time my life. You said an extraordinary

:50:40.:50:44.

thing before about this, which is being in the death zone you would

:50:44.:50:48.

not have chosen this, but you wouldn't want to walk away from it.

:50:48.:50:52.

No, no. And you wouldn't have wanted to die as the person that you

:50:52.:50:55.

were before the recurrence of cancer. No, that was certainly true

:50:55.:50:59.

in the early - it's certainly true that after the first recurrence,

:50:59.:51:05.

had not wish to have died the I was. But when you get to the final

:51:05.:51:09.

stage, the death zone, you are dealing with something which is so

:51:09.:51:13.

intense. I mean, I look out of the window and I feel the intensity. The

:51:13.:51:21.

intensity of my wife, the intensity of my family; that is it the natural

:51:21.:51:28.

place to be. To leave this now, to leave this extraordinary place now,

:51:28.:51:37.

I would not want to do that. This is the final place.

:51:37.:51:39.

And the right place for me at this And the right place for me at this

:51:40.:51:43.

time is to be in the final place. Can I ask you one other

:51:43.:51:47.

about that? Yes. Which is something that your wife Gail

:51:47.:51:53.

to you, that politics, being involved in politics, was somehow

:51:53.:51:57.

connected to your cancer, that the nastiness of politics and the

:51:57.:52:01.

aggression of politics had somehow contributed to your cancer.

:52:01.:52:05.

think that's true. What would have been better for me would have been

:52:05.:52:10.

to have said: I'll do what I can do, which I do quite well, and then just

:52:10.:52:15.

push it back a little bit. Of course, the other side of it is that

:52:16.:52:21.

it's only because I am obsessive and a nut case when it comes to politics

:52:21.:52:29.

that I've done what I've done. What would you say, as, as it were, a

:52:30.:52:32.

testamental thought to Ed and the Labour Party as it is now?

:52:32.:52:41.

I think at one and the same time he has to have a strategy that deals

:52:41.:52:48.

with the hard end of it. I mean, really does have to nail down the

:52:48.:52:52.

economy, and I am sure he will. And make sure we are the party of the

:52:53.:53:02.
:53:03.:53:03.

economy. He has to nail down responsibility and make us the party

:53:03.:53:10.

of the responsible electorate, and I think he has to.

:53:10.:53:13.

think he has to be tough in the way that he deals with some of these

:53:13.:53:17.

issues. I think that is the combination that wins the election.

:53:17.:53:21.

And it would be a good thing for Labour if thinks brother was able to

:53:21.:53:24.

be alongside him in this journey? Well, I would very much like that

:53:24.:53:31.

and I think what better epitaph for the whole book really, as a book

:53:31.:53:37.

that starts with the angularity and the difficulty with the relationship

:53:37.:53:44.

between two almost brothers, ending in I hope friendship between

:53:44.:53:52.

I think that may well happen. I - I think that may well happen. I -

:53:52.:53:57.

look, I lived under - I was born under a Labour government. And I am

:53:57.:54:01.

determined to die under a Labour government. Obviously will have

:54:01.:54:07.

get a move on, but that is what I want to happen. But I

:54:07.:54:15.

message is: have faith. And try change the world.

:54:16.:54:18.

Philip Gould, whose journey with Philip Gould, whose journey with

:54:18.:54:21.

cancer has changed him in good ways as well as bad. You can see a

:54:21.:54:24.

version of that interview on website. Now back to London with

:54:24.:54:30.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has

:54:30.:54:35.

said he doesn't think it's morally or economically right to get rid of

:54:35.:54:41.

the 50p rate of tax at the moment. He said he would block its abolition

:54:41.:54:45.

until it's replaced with another form of tax on wealthy people such

:54:45.:54:48.

as a property tax. Prayers will be said across South

:54:48.:54:53.

Wales today in memory of the four men who died in the flooded Gleision

:54:53.:54:56.

Colliery. An appeal fund set yesterday to help the bereaved

:54:56.:55:02.

families has already raised �20,000. That's all from me, now back to

:55:02.:55:06.

Andrew in Birmingham. Many thanks. Well, she was born just

:55:06.:55:09.

up the road from here Wolverhampton and got her

:55:09.:55:12.

introduction to gospel music in Church there. Beverley Knight, you

:55:13.:55:17.

are a great standard-bearer for British soul. Thank you.

:55:17.:55:21.

to us why British soul is different from American soul. Well, in terms

:55:22.:55:28.

of what you hear, it's massively influenced by the black diaspora,

:55:28.:55:32.

people coming from Africa with their rhythms and then people like

:55:32.:55:38.

parents coming from the West Indies with the reggae and syncopated

:55:38.:55:42.

rhythms driven heavily by bass so that pretty much weighs up the

:55:42.:55:45.

difference between that and the American sound which doesn't have

:55:46.:55:49.

that back ground. You are going give us something by a British song

:55:49.:55:52.

writer? Absolutely, George Michael. One of the best. We will enjoy that

:55:52.:55:54.

in just a much indeed for now. It is time

:55:54.:55:58.

me to exit, I am afraid. Join us again next week when we are back

:55:58.:56:02.

the usual time of 9.00 when we will be in Liverpool for the Labour

:56:02.:56:05.

conference, talking to the Opposition, Ed Miliband. Until

:56:05.:56:08.

then we leave you with Beverley Knight and George Michael's song,

:56:08.:56:18.
:56:18.:56:27.

# I've had enough of danger # I've had enough of danger

:56:27.:56:33.

# And people on the streets # I'm looking out for angels

:56:33.:56:38.

# Yeah # Just trying to find some peace

:56:39.:56:48.
:56:49.:56:52.

# Now I think it's time # You'll let me know

:56:52.:56:58.

# So when you say that you love me # You'll never, never leave me

:56:58.:57:02.

# I know you're wrong # You're not that strong

:57:02.:57:08.

# Just let me go # Teacher

:57:08.:57:15.

# There are things that I still have to learn

:57:15.:57:25.
:57:25.:57:26.

# And this last thing I have # Is my pride

:57:26.:57:34.

# I don't want to learn to # Hold you, touch you

:57:34.:57:43.

# Think that you're mine # 'Cos it ain't no joy

:57:43.:57:53.
:57:53.:57:57.

Live from the Liberal Democrat Party Conference in Birmingham, Andrew Marr's guests include Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, Pakistani politician and former cricketer Imran Khan, and a performance by soul singer Beverley Knight.