16/10/2011 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. After Dr Fox's departure, a few opening words from

a key politician quoted in today's Observer newspaper, warning about

the dangers of lobbying. He said, we all know how it works - the

lunches, the hospitality, the quiet, quiet word in your ear, the ex-

ministers and ex-advisers for hire, helping big business to get its way.

He went on to say it was time for politics to come clean about who is

buying power and influence. Well, who said that? Someone who can help

sort things out and help politics. Because that was the then

opposition leader, David Cameron. And joining me today for our review

of the Sunday newspapers, the Labour peer, Helena Kennedy, and

the Daily Mail columnist and historian, Sir Max Hastings. Liam

Fox has gone but, as today's papers make clear, there are still plenty

of questions to be answered about this strange story. Who exactly was

funding Adam Werritty's global travels and why? What was Atlantic

Bridge, the organisation at the middle of this? Well, the Foreign

Secretary, William Hague, can help with the last question because he

was one of its patrons. He has got a lot more to think about than that,

of course, with the European crisis and the end-game in Libya -

something for which, by the way, Mr Fox can take some credit. I'll also

be joined by Senator George Mitchell, one of the big guys of

American politics and business. Having helped bring peace to

Northern Ireland, he was asked by President Obama to try and find a

solution to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. With

no breakthrough, he resigned in May. What hope does he see for the

region? And from man of peace to a master of verbal aggression. We

know him best as the inventively foul-mouthed Malcolm Tucker in The

Thick of It. Now he is planning to be a Ladykiller in London's West

End. Peter Capaldi joins me to talk about why he is bringing an old

Ealing classic to the stage. Plus, from Genesis to Revelations. One of

the prophets of British rock music, Peter Gabriel, will be here to sing

and talk about The Elders. Who are they? We'll find out more later on.

Let's kick off with the news with Louise Minchin. Good morning.

Police in London are considering whether to investigate Adam

Werritty, the close friend of the former Defence Secretary Liam Fox,

for fraud. The Labour MP, John Mann, asked police to probe allegations

that Mr Werritty used business cards falsely claiming he was an

adviser to Dr Fox. A company set up by Mr Werritty also received

thousands of pounds from several wealthy backers. Liam Fox resigned

on Friday, admitting that he had allowed the distinction between his

personal interests and government activities to become blurred.

Demonstrations are still going on in cities around the world from New

Zealand to the USA against what protesters call corporate greed.

Most have been peaceful although many people were injured during

violence in Rome. Around 70 people were also arrested in New York.

Several thousand people gathered in the City of London, but their

numbers dropped to a few hundred overnight. Alexandra Mackenzie

reports. New York's Times Square, 5000 anti-war street protesters

stopped traffic been busy Manhattan streets. Demonstrations in the city

began a month ago. They're angry that US banks are enjoying profits

after getting bail-outs. Many Americans are dealing with high

unemployment and a high cost of limits -- living. Demonstrations

came on a day off worldwide protests against austerity in what

has been described as corporate greed. At least 70 people were

injured after a rally in Rome descended into street battles. They

rock also rallyes in Spain, Greece and Portugal. In London, 3000

people demonstrated in the financial district but were

prevented from reaching the Stock Exchange. A handful of arrests were

made. Away from the protests, but finance ministers of the G20, some

of the world's most powerful economies, where meeting in Paris.

Top of the agenda was the eurozone crisis. France and Germany say they

have a comprehensive plan and the consensus at the meeting was that

European leaders were making progress towards finding a solution.

The question is, what can this global mood than to achieve and

will it continue to gather momentum? In London, some

protesters said they could be a continued protest until December. A

British soldier has been killed while manning a checkpoint in the

Helmand province of Afghanistan. The soldier, from the 2nd Battalion,

The Royal Gurkha Rifles, was shot by insurgents in the Nahr-e Saraj

region of Helmand. His family has been informed. He is the 35th

soldier to die there this year. Wootton Bassett will formally

receive a royal title in a ceremony today. The Wiltshire town is being

recognised for its dedication in honouring Britain's war dead. The

coffins of soldiers killed in action in Iraq and Afghanistan

passed through it for many years after arriving at nearby RAF

Lyneham. It is the first town in more than 100 years to receive

royal status. Sebastian Vettel has won the Korean Grand Prix. His

rebel team take the constructors title. Lewis Hamilton came in

second place. -- Red Bull team take the constructors title. Bad news

for me in the Mail on Sunday. Bake up attacking facelifts. -- they are

In the Sunday Telegraph, donors fury over lies with the Liam Fox of

her. There is a nice picture of the Queen. Michael Gove is at war with

top civil servant in the Education Department - sacking many of them.

In the Sunday Express, it is warning it is the end of cheap

flights. In the Sunday Mirror, it seems to have found the love

hideaway of Paul McCartney. There is at only one story to start with.

That is the Liam Fox affair. It has not been as much of a fox hunt, as

far as I'm concerned. There is still a sense of a benign response

on all of this that I think is inappropriate. In the Daily

Telegraph, it says the donors who gave money to Adam Werritty - the

friend of Liam Fox - a cross because he was spending it on first

class flights and staying in fancy hotels. They wanted the money to be

spent on political stuff and their agenda. That is what should be

concerning people. Her I was amazed by the General lost -- the

generosity of a lot of political pitches on it. I am not persuaded

he would ever have become Defence Secretary if the justification were

that he was a leadership contender. As for the job he has done, I am

not satisfied he has been much good. Can he take credit for what has

happened in Libya? A bit. The armed forces will be ecstatic at his

departure. I feel a lot of people feel Philip Hammond is a very good

appointment. There is a very good line in the Sunday Times saying,

for Mr Cameron, it was a failure in the Civil Service and Number 10.

Senior civil servants should have warned him and told Downing Street.

The question my wife has asked repeatedly, what was going on that

nobody said that this guy was amusing himself around the world

while he was supposed to be Defence Secretary? It should not have been

necessary for senior civil servants to say, sir, Canada say, we are a

bit worried about the presence of this chap all the time. It is worse

than that. It is about this awful business... Here we have the

doneness being cross that he was being lavished on his expenses. It

is the fact that people buy access to power and some out it is taken

as read. At the beginning, the Observer was quoting to David

Cameron, who was pointing at the danger of lobbyists. He said it was

worse potentially for the reputation of politics. We have not

seen much done about it. reality of power is always about

this business of... Here were right-wing businessmen, who think

their own personal agenda fixes with a bigger political agenda. It

links him with people on the right in America. There is something

nasty about this. This is a bipartisan comment made. Some

ministers think the rules are made for little people. Liam Fox has

always behaved as a semi-detached member of this government. It is

very dangers when people start to do this. We saw that in the last

government with Gordon Brown. was it that we suddenly had casino

is being introduced in Britain? Why was Labour doing that? We have to

flush it out. This is all over the newspapers. Behind this passing

political story, there is a much bigger story about the world

economy, the European economy, the British economy. Lots of anti-

capitalist protests going on - some of them violent. We have this

business going on in Wall Street. It is going global. It is young

people but it has the support of lots of people. Far more people are

supporting us because they really do feel that, if you like, the

money men have got away with it. Somehow we are not addressing the

serious problems and the kind of capitalism, free-market ideology,

which has gone mad. It has to be constrained in some way. Democratic

politicians all over the West will have a hell of a job in the next

few years. They need to reconcile electorates to the fact they will

have less of everything. I hear a lot of talk around the place. Will

the social fabric hold together in the light of this? We have a column

by Janet Daley of the Sunday Telegraph about being poorer. That

may be true if you are in the upper middle classes. In the bottom of

society, we are all asking questions. We have never had a

downturn like this which has not had some kind of political kickback.

We have not felt the impact yet. It will be painful for the middle-

classes and less well-off people. It will be really hard. Politicians

are going to have a hard time. We are always going to be disappointed

in them. The people with power are not the politicians. We have to

find a new way to consider politics to examine this and look at the

ways in which... It is a difficult call for newspapers about the

gravity of the euro crisis. It is difficult for the media and

politicians to never, how big do you play it? Do you pretend these

are normal times what do you say, this is a historic crisis that may

change all our lives? So much of this is so complicated. These

trillions and billions and complicated packages by obscure

European organisations. People find it very hard to get their heads

around it. There is a story closer to home with Scotland. This is one

we have to watch. We can easily leave this on the back-burner but

we should be talking about it more. In the Independent, Westminster has

no argument to be Alex Salmond effect. It is about the growing

sense that Alex Salmond is playing something of a blinder on this

business of Wescott then goes. People in Scotland of getting free

personal care. -- where Scotland goes up. There is free education

for students who are Scottish. All this business where there is a far

more -- where far more public services are being maintained than

in England. They are offering a referendum, not about full-scale

nationalism and independence, but something less than that, which is

greater autonomy in terms of the economy. Does that mean that the

Scot should pay all the bills? he is able to make corporation tax

much lower than England, he might be inviting a lot of big corporates

into... We will hear more from the man himself very shortly. The real

question is, have we had much of a discussion about the implications

of this for the whole of the United Kingdom and the way in which...?

More next week for those interested Tomorrow is a summit about energy,

presided over by Chris Huhne. I think this is a looming problem, a

number of people have said this Government has no credible energy

policy. Unless it can do better, Elle we'll have a huge energy

crunch. What, in sum, does it have crunch. What, in sum, does it have

to do? They've got to get on, as a very good report published last

year said, the options facing us are so bleak about an energy crunch

ten years down the line, they've got to embrace all the options:

nuclear, renewables, the whole work. I would like to talk about face-

lifts. It seems to me that here is one that I think most people might

agree with, the idea of putting VAT on cosmetic surgery, since it is a

luck ry thing. -- luxury thing. People don't want to talk about

face-lifts any more or breast enlargements. I think all the

surgeons will start patting their patients on the soldier and saying,

"Don't worry, I will tell them it is a medical they assessity."

You've done a one-volume excellent history of the Second World War,

which I have read. I'm terribly flattered you have had time to read

it. You are up there with the best sellers. We are just behind the

comedians and that's the best you can hope for in our business,

Andrew. The great thing about this book is he has gone around the

world and talked about the effects of the Second World War. We've

looked at it nationally rather than globally. At this stage in the game

if you are going to justify writing a book like that you have to look

at it in a new way. One of the shocks to me was the idea that the

people in India starved, the Bengal famine. We've covered a lot. We've

been quite rude about Liam Fox, who isn't here to defend himself...

half as rude as I would liked to have been if we had more time.

Perhaps another occasion. For now, thank you very much indeed.

It was gorgeous, glittering weather in the south yesterday as we wept

for Wales. We read of gales to come. What's the outlook for today? Over

the Chris Fawkes in the Weather the Chris Fawkes in the Weather

Centre. It's been quite a mild start to the month so far, but

things are set to change over the next couple of days. Colder air to

our north-west is going to flood across the country. Temperatures

will have dropped everywhere by Tuesday. It will feel much more

like autumn shoot. For the north- west of the country, blustery

showers for Northern Ireland and Scotland. South and east, fog

patches linger in south-east England. Temperatures will be slow

to rise in some eastern counties, perhaps reaching 17 degrees. This

evening and overnight we'll see more rain in Northern Ireland and

Scotland. The winds continue to strengthen here, touching gale-

force. Further south, it will be a chilly night. Temperatures in the

countryside down to 3-4 Celsius. Tomorrow looks like it is a windy

day in northern areas in particular. A band of rain sets in during the

day in Northern Ireland, spreading to Scotland. This band of rain is a

cold front. Just to the southern side of our cold front is where the

winds will be at their strongest on Monday afternoon, touching gusts of

60-70 miles per hour to southern parts of Scotland and the far north

of England. There is going to be a bit of mountain snow as well. A

cold day in Glasgow, cloudy and wet, 9 degrees. The cold air is yet to

arrive in London, but it will do by Tuesday. Autumn is just around the

corner. corner.

Thank you Chris. Within days of becoming US

President, Barack Obama signalled his commitment to finding peace in

the Middle East by appointing Senator George Mitchell as his

special envoy. A big figure in American politics for years, and

boss of the Disney Corporation, credited with turning it around,

he's best known here as the man who accomplished so much in Northern

Ireland. Appointed to talk to Israel and the Palestinians, he

once said every conflict could be ended. They're created and

sustained by human beings, they can be ended by human beings. After two

years of trying, Senator Mitchell resigned his post this spring amid

suggestions that he was exasperated by the lack of movement. Well, he's

visiting the UK to speak at an event organised by OneVoice, a

conflict resolution group working with both Israelis and Palestinians.

And he joins me now. Senator Mitchell, welcome. Thanks for

having me. Can I ask why you decided it was time to move on from

what must have been I'm sure a frustrating role and a difficult

one? Did you think that in the end the United States didn't have

enough heft to shift the Israelis? No, the reason I left is that when

President Obama asked me to accept the position, I told him I could

serve for no more than two years, that I would do so and then I would

leave, and that's what happened. I do think that the situation is very

difficult, obviously. Conflicts that are centuries in the making

often taking years to overcome. But I still believe that if not in the

immediate future, where it is hard to be optimistic, over some time

the parties, Israel and Palestine, their people will recognise that

the pain of getting to an agreement is less than the pain they will

endure if they don't get to an agreement. I think that will

prevail. Quite a few commentators nonetheless after President Obama

made his great speech in Cairo and raised so many hopes wondered why

America didn't do more. In terms of military contacts and commercial

contacts and cultural contacts and the rest of it, there was the

ability to put pressure on Mr Binyamin Netanyahu. He is a tough

character. We all knew where he was coming from. There didn't seem to

be that pressure, it was hard to see how things would change. From

the other side's perspective there was too much pressure. I think it

depends on your point of view as to how much is the right amount of

pressure. They are all tough guys in the region, not only the Prime

Minister but everyone involved. We made a real effort, but in the end,

Andrew, the decisions made there will have to be made by Israelis

and Palestinians. Withive and sustained support of the United

States and our allies, and many friends in the region, but it won't

be the American people who decide if future of Israelis and

Palestinians but Israelis and Palestinians. And you were at the

core of this for two years. What, in your view, has been the toughest

part of the whole situation to shift? Israel has a state, a very

successful one. They don't have security for their people and

that's what they want. The Palestinians do not have a state

and they want one, and independent, viable state, so that they can

enjoy the self respect that comes from self governance. I believe

that neither can attain its objective by denying to the other

side its objective. That is to say I don't think the Palestinians are

going to get a state until Israelis feel a sense ofen reasonable and

sustainable security. I don't think the Israelis can get that until the

Palestinians get a state. So the outcome, it seems to me, is clear.

The problem is getting there. Both societies are deeply divided and it

is very difficult politically for any leader to make anything

resembling the compromise that's necessary to accommodate the other

side's concerns. And that's the big hurdle. Of course, the Palestinians

are making a push at the moment in the United Nations for statehood.

Yes. And the United States appears likely to veto this. That's going

to be very hard to explain across the wider region, given that

Palestinian statehood has been part of what the United States says it

is fighting for? The United States does strongly favour the creation

of a Palestinian state as part of a two-state solution, which provides

to both sides their principal objective. But we believe and the

parties themselves - President Abbas and Prime Minister Netanyahu

- have both said the only way it will be achieved is through direct

negotiation. Did you regard this as a propagandist thing in the United

Nations? That's a pejorative phrase. They are obviously trying to trance

their objective. But if the goal is a state, they themselves have

acknowledged the only way to get a state is to get into negotiations.

The concerns we have about that approach is it makes negotiations

less likely rather than more likely. Meanwhile there's a problem in the

sense that Hamas is gaining traction and gaining credibility.

They've been very big -- a very big prisoner swap deal has been agreed.

If Hamas are on the rise and Prime Minister Abbas is on the down it is

going to be harder isn't it? course, there are ups and downs.

Just a couple of weeks ago when President Abbas appeared before the

United Nations to file his request, he went up. Now Hamas is coming up.

So wait another week and something else will happen drities up and

down. But it's a concern. The United States favours the

involvement of all parties, provided they meet the simplest,

basic democratic demands that everyone has in the region, and

among the EU and other allies in the West. When you took on the job

you must have thought there was the chance of a breakthrough, that this

is a moment of hope. You heard the President talking about hope. What

went wrong, do you think? Well, it is a conflict centuries in the

making and there were deep roots. I never was certain there would be an

agreement but I was optimistic and hopefully. And I still am. I think

that with patience and perseverance this can be done. I think what went

wrong is that the parties so far have been unwilling to take the

painful steps politically, in terms of their internal dynamics, to move

to the next level and to accommodate the other side, because,

I repeat, the only way each can get what it wants is to accommodate the

principal return of the other side. President Carter told us he thought

the time had come to talk to Hamas, that they had moved to a position

where they the become a genuine interlocutor. Hamas made many

statement to many people, many of them contradictory, some private,

some public. Once they've made a statement they will comply with

democratic norms they will be welcomed into the process. Until

they do so, however, as in other conflicts, they should not be. You

know, Andrew, in Northern Ireland a principal step was taken when I set

forth what became known as the Mitchell Principles and all the

paramilitaries agreed with them. They included the renounciation --

renunciation of violence. When people make clear their willingness

to participate in a manner that's consistent with democratic

principles, they will be very welcome. So you can help people

make peace but they have to be ready for it? That's exactly right.

Senator Mitchell, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you,

Andrew. For more than four decades Peter

Gabriel has been one of the most revered British musicians, an

artist of the first rank, ever since the ground-breaking days with

Genesis. He was also at the forefront of the world music

movement, has been an activist for Amnesty International, and is

behind a fascinating organisation called simply The Elders. His new

album revisits the Peter Gabriel back catalogue, accompanied by an

orchestra. We'll be hearing more of that later, but first the man

himself joins me. Welcome. Thank you for coming in. You're welcome.

Can I start by asking, it is perhaps a strange place to start

but about The Elders? This is an organisation of extremely

experienced world states people is it? Indeed. The idea was really as

trust in institutions and Government declines around the

world, there are still individuals around who are trusted and have led

extraordinary lives. The thought was you could get a small group of

them together and they could focus their energies, that there might be

some ways that their wisdom and experience could be usefully

engaged. Like a world Senate or upper house of the real grey beards.

Nelson Mandela has been on it in the past? He founded it, Tutu is

our chair, Brundtland... Senator Mitchell might be a candidate

before long. So they come together, what happens to the discussions,

are they going to be publicised? Some of the activities are kept

fairly quiet, for obvious reasons, but they choose various places in

the world where they think they may make an incremental perhaps but a

difference to what's going on there. The whole concept of people power

which we are beginning to see in the Arab awakening, with the

internet, social networks, mobile phones, that they would have a role

I sort of fell into it and wrote a song about Stephen be, in South

Africa. That was my calling card. I was invited to other things. The

amnesty Tour went around the world and it was like changing stuff. You

met people for whom it was a real and every day story. The sum you

are going to sing at the end of the show it is a political song. -- the

song. It was inspired by torture in Argentina. It was really trying to

talk about prisoner conscience. actually put your money into these

things. You do not sign a petition and way. There is of money. I work

with another organisation - a human rights organisation using

technology and video. That is more of my human rights focus but I

still do things with Amnesty and The Elders. You have a full

orchestra. It makes a heck of a noise. It is amazing. You get used

to performing with a small group and some pre-recorded elements.

Here is a large stage full of wonderful players. Being of a

generation that bought Genesis albums from way back. Nowt to a

kind of almost silence and piece of vocal music and back up again. --,

it seems that putting an orchestra behind you lets you play at a

deeper level. The range is much deeper and Fuller. -- more fall. Do

you recognise the life young man who was there in the old days?

about. All a healthy part of growing up. Presumably we will not

see Genesis Again? We had conversations a few years back but

it was the bigger project and I thought I could take on. The door

is not locked. Meanwhile some great music. We will hear from you a bit

later on. Few characters in British comedy have seized our imagination

as forcibly as that of Malcolm Tucker, the foul-mouthed

Westminster bruiser, played so memorably by Peter Capaldi in The

Thick of It. It's been so successful that the series

transferred to the cinema - In The Loop was a Box Office hit. Having

conquered the small screen and the big screen, Capaldi is now back on

the stage in London. He is starring in a new theatre adaptation of that

wonderful Ealing comedy, The Ladykillers. I'll be talking to him

about that in a moment. But first a brief reminder of Malcolm Tucker at

his most malevolent. This job will not get anywhere near my husband

and my kids. You are now belt and owned by the state. You are under

the spotlight 24 hours a day, darling! We were going to play a

bit where you were very rude about my ears but it was all swearing.

Before we talk about other things, obviously your character was based

on Alastair Campbell. You met Alastair Campbell. I always tried

to avoid him. I did not want to be charmed. Politicians are terribly

charming and I did not want to be drawn into his circle. I saw the

name plate next to mine was Alastair Campbell. I thought I

would be stuck. He turned up large as life and he said, what is with

the hair? He has a great interest in hair and hair products, as you

know. He was very charming and very funny. Lots of quips and remarks

about everyone. With his northern accent it gave him an air of a

second rate comedian at the Batley Variety Club or something. I should

not have been surprised at this there were lots of prominent Tories

who came up to him and said, hello. Politicians are human beings. We

forget that. Now with the coalition, we're going to seek a remix of The

Thick Of It. Are you going to be in it? I am. I cannot tell you what I

will be doing because I do not really know. Malcolm is going to be

there. Excellent! The Ladykillers is one of the great comedies of all

time. Why transfer it to the stage? What is the point of the stage

version? Is it different? The point of doing it is it is banned. The

Ladykillers, the movie, it is almost a perfect maybe but it is

full of great stuff you cannot leave alone. It is very stylish and

has a ghoulish quality about it. It has great ideas. We'd tell the same

story and we use a lot of the same elements. Obviously it is a live

show full of real actors and routines and gags. You are

following in the shoes of one of the all-time great British actors.

It is quite terrifying. We have just seen Gary Coltman. The key

thing about Alec Guinness in the Ladykillers is, he said, my dear

boy, surely you want Alastair Sim for less? He was doing a version of

Alastair Sim. Alastair Sim had been influenced by lots of different

actors as well. I joined that line of actors channelling other people.

This is a homage to the great days of cinema, isn't it? You have done

another programme. It is a documentary looking at my passion

for lost stars of the British film industry, including people like

Floyd Fonteyn. They raise a series of films called -- there is a

series of films called the thumbs up gang, which are worse than the

Carry On films. Without any language you cannot use at this

time of mourning, what would Malcolm Tucker be a dressing David

Cameron with? -- addressing. think the thing is, the very first

episode, the very first scene in the very first episode, it has

almost this exact situation where Malcolm has a minister who is being

the drip drip drip of what people are saying is making the Government

look weak. Malcolm would have sacked him immediately. What would

he say? I cannot say it. I cannot say it pulls up you know that.

cannot say it. You know that. Well, we've talked this morning already

about Libya, the Middle East and about the Fox resignation. A man

who can help us with all of those, and more, is the Foreign Secretary,

William Hague. Welcome. Let's start, if we may, with the resignation of

Liam Fox. At the beginning of the show a red or what the Prime

Minister had said about the need to clean up lobbying and he said there

should be a register of lobbyists and it should be published. There

should be quarterly updates and so on. None of that has happened. In

order to stop this problem becoming generic, shouldn't the Government

do more? The Cabinet secretary is doing a report that will be

published in the coming days. It will depend on Match report if they

are wider implications. It was part of the original coalition deal that

there would be a larger measure on lobbying. I think ministers will

have to discuss that. With the advantage of having seen that

report. We do not have that advantage on Sunday morning. It

will be published in the coming days. I do not think that the

arrangements that have been described in the press, although I

will have to see the report, are generic across the Government.

Nevertheless, if action needs to be taken, the Prime Minister will want

to take it. What we do know is that people with defence related

interests had been paying for somebody who was then organising

meetings with the Defence Secretary without MoD officials being present.

What would be a good phrase for that? Again you are trying to get

me on to what may be in this report. I would not be so bold as to say

that what we read in newspapers is what we know about already. Let's

see what the report from the Cabinet secretary has to say. I

would say that the idea it is possible to run a completely

separate policy by one minister is a fanciful idea. The foreign policy

of this country is set by myself and the Prime Minister, working

through the National Security Council, there are 140 ambassadors

in consulates, etc. One adviser to one minister is not able to run the

totally different policy from the rest of the Government. People can

be reassured about that. And about all the allegations. There are very

legitimate questions about all these things. We will have to see

the report in a few days' time. When you hear, if it is true, that

Mr Werritty was in Iran, has been dealing with Iranian Excise,

discussing the overthrow of LEA regime, it might be a good thing to

discuss. When you hear about discussions in Sri Lanka, you are

not at all concerned that policies are being discussed outside the

FCO? We will have to see what the report says. My own observations

about Liam Fox and true banquette is, is if I asked him not to go to

Sri Lanka at a particular time, he did not go. If it was about

conveying the messages of the Government, he conveyed those

messages. He acted, in my experience, in co-ordination with

myself and on the instructions of the Foreign Office on foreign

policy. I do not want to anticipate anything that is in this report but

I hope that is of some reassurance. Did you know Mr Werritty? I have

not met him while I have been Foreign Secretary. I did not know

him. If did you have a sense of what he was doing? I do not have

any sense of it other than what has been discussed openly in the last

few days. I have not come across him as Foreign Secretary while we

have been in government. That puts things into perspective. Clearly

there are important questions to answer. Mistakes have been made.

Liam Fox, in his resignation, has said he has made mistakes in his

personal interests and government responsibilities that he had. That

is acknowledged. We do not make light of that. To be absolutely

clear, where it to be the case that somebody was organising meetings

between potential defence contractors and clients and the

mess that outside the system, that would be a fundamental breach of

everything that a minister is supposed to do? It is wrong to the

ports do things on behalf of the Government if it is not. -- purport.

Have you seen the business card he was handing out? The Cabinet

Secretary is going to address... It's my job is to say, to be fair,

the Cabinet Secretary is addressing these things. Atlantic Bridge. What

was all that about? It was one of many organisations that promote

good transatlantic links between American and British politicians

and communities in general. There are many such organisations. It is

a good thing to do. I spoke once at one event organised by Atlantic

Bridge in the United States and there was a wide range of people

there. The idea it was only a tea- party connection was that it was

wrong. It helps British and American politicians to know each

other. It claimed to be a charity and then got into trouble and had

to stop being a charity. Clearly there were some things wrong.

were on the board at the time. I was Advisory Council, which is a

name on the letterhead. It does not mean you know how the thing was run.

The concept of supporting strong ties between Britain and America

was the good one. Atlantic Bridge was part of supporting that concept.

You did not come across Mr Werritty in that context? I do not think so,

no. Contact with other ministers apart from Liam Fox would be very

slight. Organisations that support strong Atlantic ties are to be

supported. It does not mean that any of us know the details about

We hear about a 2 trillion euro boost to help the Greeks out of

their trouble. It does seem to look like there is no alternative to

some sort of oldly Greece by -- orderly default by Greece? The need

to ring-fence the problem in Greece by having a very substantial

expansion of the stability fund to recapitalise certain banks, and to

resolve the situation in Greece. There are various ways of doing

that, on which we've given private advice as we believe as the public

advice I've just referred to. We want to see the eurozone stabilised.

I yield to no-one as a critic of the euro. I've always been a strong

critic of the euro. I think it has many fundamental problems, but it

is in our interests now in Britain for it to be stabilised and to have

a healthy eurozone. You are in the strange position of being a critic

of the whole euro project, and yet the British position seems to be

that those in it have to go even further towards a single economic

policy, a single fiscal policy to save the currency? They will have

to integrate to a greater extent. One of our criticisms criticisms

has been that if you set up a single currency there are logical

consequences of that. One reason Britain shouldn't join ask we don't

want to be caught up in that eurozone policy. They will have to

follow some of the logic of having a single currency. Britain will

support stabilising it. It doesn't mean we'll be involved in eurozone

bail-out. We've helped Ireland but we are not involved in our eurozone

bail-outs. Sir John Major said on the programme last week he thought

the possibility of repatriating powers as a result of this, and he

singled out some of the employment laws, fisheries and other things

that could be repatriated, could be much closer than people thought,

that we were close to some kind of crisis in the European structure

which would allow us to repatriate powers and presumably allow a

referendum? The repatriation of powers, which I'm in favour of, is

not an immediate prospect, because no countries are proposing wide-

scale treaty change. At the moment that is not what they are proposing.

A British opportunity to address those issues comes if there's a

major change in the European treaties and the other nations need

our co-operation in order to do that. So, our priorities, given

there is no major treaty change on the cards, are to protect our own

financial services industry, to hold down the European budget and

to make sure the 17 eurozone countries can't impose their view

on the other ten who are not in the euro about matters that are not

concerned with the euro. And that is more important to you now than a

referendum, because any treaty change could, in theory, according

to the original Conservative Party policy, trigger a referendum?

treaty that transfers power from Britain to the EU will be subject

to a referendum. We've passed the European Union Act of 2011, which

in contrast to what happened under the last Government... So you are

not going soft on this because you are Foreign Secretary? I believe in

being in Europe but not run by Europe, in my slogan of ten years

ago. That is still my belief. But the opportunity for major changes

in the European treaties is not there yet. Our priority is for the

eurozone to be stabilised and at the same time to protect the

British national interest. Libya is really clearly now absolutely at

the end endgame, it is over for the Gaddafi loyalists, even though

Gaddafi hasn't been found. You are going to the region shortly. Yes.

Talk us through what now needs to happen in terms of the elections

and if dangers of violence against ex-Gaddafi people now, I guess.

There is still fighting going on in Sirte and in Bani Walid. Once the

fighting is over we expect the National Transitional Council to

declare the formal liberation of Libya. That starts the clock

ticking, on 30 days to inclusive government in Libya, an eight-month

timetable for elections. We want that to happen, for Libya to have a

democratic and free future. It is important they address any

accusations, there've been accusation over the mistreatment of

prisoners. Our embassy have already raised that with them. I will raise

it with them when I visit Libya shortly. But I have to say, the

leadership of the NTC in Libya has been clear about the standards they

must uphold. I think their commitment to a free and democratic

country is very sincere, so we should support them in achieving

that goal. And you are not worried that there are Islamistic extremist

elements there that might come to the fore? This term cover as vast

range... That's why I used it! That's right. There are people who

could be described as Islamists who are in favour of a moderate Muslim

country. Others are what we would call... Terrorists Extremists. It

is important that Libya moves in that moderate Muslim direction.

That's the direction they are moving in. The opportunity for

Libya, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, there's a tremendously exciting

opportunity for them to have closer links with Europe, to develop their

economies, for a huge advance in human freedom. So amidst all the

problems of the world this has tremendous positive potential, the

Arab Spring. Just to be clear, you are concerned about stories that

there could now be pretty unpleasant mistreatment of Gaddafi

loyalists and people, and you are going to raise that? Any report by

Amnesty International we take very seriously. Of course we will be

raising that further but I believe they are sincere in their

determination to root out abuses. You said in the House of Commons

that Syria had been faced by a fork in the road and had taken the wrong

road. I know the various Arab Governments are coming together

shortly to decide what to do. are meeting today in Cairo. I

discussed this with the Prime Minister of Qatar yesterday. I

urged them to take a steadily stronger stand. I think they will

do that. They require unaninity to do that. It's a problem for them.

Lebanon has deep links with Syria and it is not easy for the Lebanese

Government to take a strong stand on this. We've banned all Syrian

crude oil imports into the European Union, which is 90% of their crude

oil exports, so we will keep up and intensify the international

pressure on this appalling regime which has now killed at least 3,000

of their own people. Can I ask a more general question? Sir Max

Hastings was discussing this earlier on. The thought that we are

actually as a country and indeed across the West facing a much more

severe and difficult economic outlook that will have political

consequences, perhaps than politicians tend to accept, tend to

admit to, that we are facing much, much harder years ahead and that at

some point politicians will have to tell us about it and be straight

with us? This Government has been very clear with people that we

cannot go on in the way that we were in previous years. We've got

to tackle the debts and the deficits. One of the argument I

made at our party conference a couple of weeks ago is that growth

is not automatic. Some western countries will make this transition

to increase the flexibility of their countries and some won't. We

have to make sure we are one of the countries that does make that

transition. That's the importance of what Michael Government is doing

in education and Iain Duncan Smith in welfare, so we can make that

change this this country. And what about all the protesters now around

the world, including in London, who feel that the bankers and the old

guard have got away with it? Well, we support the right to a peaceful

protest. It is important those protests are kept peaceful. It is

true that a lot of things have to be faced up to in the western world.

There've been too many debts built up by states. Clearly in the

banking system a lot has gone wrong. So you have some sympathy with

those young people who've been up all night, in tents, protesting?

have sympathy of course with people who are unhappy at the dump what we

are facing in the world. However, protest isn't the answer. If answer

is for Governments to control their debts and deficits, for us to boost

the human capital of our country. That's why we are increasing the

number of apresentistships, the number of University places this

year. These are the positive answers that will address it. I'm

afraid protesting in the streets isn't going to solve the problem.

William Hague, thank you very much for joining us.

Now over to Louise for the news headlines. The Foreign Secretary

has confirmed that a report into the relationship between Adam

Werritty and Liam Fox will be published.

He said the idea was fanciful. Police in London are considering

whether to investigate Adam Werritty, the close friend of the

former Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, for fraud. The Labour MP, John Mann,

asked police to probe allegations that Mr Werritty used business

cards falsely claiming he was an adviser to Dr Fox. Crowds are

gathering in Wootton Bassett for a ceremony in the Wiltshire town will

be formally granted royal status. It's been recognised for its

dedication in honouring Britain's war dead. The coffins of soldiers

killed in action in Iraq and Afghanistan passed through the town

for many years after arriving at nearby RAF Lyneham.

The next news on BBC One in at 11.15.

On Sunday morning live, teenagers say they want better sex education

less sons but a campaigner says she doesn't want teachers talking dirty,

in her words, to her kids. Should we get rid of retirement and

work until we drop? Join us at 10.15.

Thanks to all my guests. Join us again next Sunday, we're back at

our normal time of 9.00am. Until then, we leave you as promised with

Peter Gabriel and "Wallflower". # 6 x 6 from wall to wall.

# Shutters on the windows, no light at all.

# Damp on the floor, you got damp in the bed.

# They're trying to get you crazy. # Get you out of your head.

# And they feed you scraps and they feed you lies.

# To lower your defences, no compromise.

# Nothing you can do, the day can be long.

# Your mind is working overtime. # Your body's not too strong.

# Hold on, hold on. # They put you in a box so you

can't get heard. # Let your spirit stay unbroken.

# May you not be deterred. # Hold on.

# You've gambled with your own life. # And you face the night alone.

# While the builders of the cages sleep with bullets, bars and stone.

# They do not see the road to freedom that you build with flesh