23/10/2011 The Andrew Marr Show


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Good morning. Welcome. No doubt about the main image of the week -


an ugly one - the desperate run-to- ground Gadaffi begging for his life


before being killed. I guess few people will mourn such a monstrous


leader, but let's hope it wasn't a portent for the new Libya A country


for which we now presumably have some moral responsibility. We'll


see what the politicians here have to say. From Glasgow we have the


shadow defence secretary Jim Murphy, and here in the studio the new


defence secretary Philip Hammond, who will no doubt have lots to say


about the other great issues in today's papers, the financial


crisis in the Eurozone and tomorrow's Commons showdown over a


European referendum. So, is Cameron right to take on the Tory


eurosceptics? One of them, former Conservative minister John Redwood,


joins us to review those papers, alongside Shami Chakrabati from


Liberty. But there's another great issue facing the United Kingdom


which is running very hot just now. The party conference season is not


over, the Scottish Nationalists are meeting in very fine fettle - an


electoral system meant to prevent any single party winning control of


the parliament in Edinburgh has been confounded and the SNP's


firmly in charge. So are we now on the fast track to the end of the


UK? Scotland's first minister and SNP leader Alex Salmond joins us


from Inverness. Plus not one but two great figures of stage and


screen. Vanessa Redgrave plays England's Queen Elizabeth in a new


film which argues that Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare's plays.


She's here to talk about that and Driving Miss Daisy, the West End


hit play. And we'll be hearing from one of the world's top opera


singers, the diva with the mostest, Angela Georgiou.


Before all that the news from Naga Munchetty.


Good morning. Libya's National Transitional Council will today


formally announce the country's liberation. The first elections


have been promised within eight months, and full democracy by 2013.


Colonel Gadaffi's body remains on display in the city of Misrata,


with growing confusion over how he died. From Tripoli, Katya Adler


reports. Victorious fighters, returning from the front line back


to their home town, Benghazi. This is where the Libyan uprising


started, and this is where it will formally end later today with the


declaration of liberation. But questions about exactly how Colonel


Gaddafi died are still being asked. This is the ambulance carrying his


body from Sirte to Misrata, surrounded by a convoy of jubilant


fighters. At one stage it stops. This man is paraded before the


camera. He acts out how he says he killed Colonel Gaddafi. The man


beside him says "this is the guy who killed Colonel Gaddafi with his


hands, using this. He did it right in front of me, I saw it." The


official version is that Colonel Gaddafi was killed in crossfire


after being captured alive. He was not beaten or executed, they say.


We have the coroner's report. I saw the body myself. There were no


bruises on his face or body. If someone abused his body, you know,


that was the perfect chance. They would hit him 10,000 times before


they shoot him. International groups have called for an


investigation into his death. For the time being, his body is still


on display in Misrata. The ultimate trophy of war for the fighters who


captured him. There are no signs yet of the body being handed over


for burial. Tunisia is holding its first


election since the uprising which forced the former dictator, Zine El


Abidine Ben Ali, from power. His removal, which followed weeks of


demonstrations, has been seen as the catalyst for other protest


movements across the Arab world. Tunisians are voting for an


assembly which will draft a new constitution before appointing a


president. The Prime Minister David Cameron


will join a summit in Brussels today, aimed at finally agreeing a


solution to the crisis in the eurozone. EU leaders will discuss


writing down Greece's debt, and how to finance a big increase in bail-


out funds. The German Chancellor Angela Merkel, has promised that


everything necessary will be done to stabilise the single currency.


Brussels is going to be busier over the next few days - summits and big


decisions to make about stabilising the European financial system. Last


night centre-right leaders held preparatory meeting and Angela


Merkel spoke about the task. There are difficult negotiations. It is


important that Germany and France participate actively and that is


what we have been doing. Now we have reached a more realistic


appraisal of the situation in Greece, I think we will provide


everything that is needed to protect the euro. The deal on


recapitalising European banks has been done but it is contingent on


other things being agreed over the next few days. For more of Greece's


debt will have to be written off and that means banks will have to


take a much bigger hit. How much debt and how big a hit, there are a


variety of opinions. There is intense technical debate about how


to increase the firepower of the euro-zone's rescue formed. It is


vital because it will have to help protect bigger countries like Italy


and Spain, and prevent Europe's financial woes from spreading out


of control. Services at St Paul's Cathedral in


London will be performed in private this morning because of an anti-


capitalism protest taking place outside. The Occupy London


demonstrators have been at St Paul's for a week. It's the first


time since the Blitz that the public will be excluded from Sunday


services. Hundreds of well wishers have


turned out in Canberra to see the Queen as she attended church with


Prince Philip. After the service she had lunch with a host of famous


Australians, including the King's Speech actor Geoffrey Rush. The


Queen is in Australia for an eleven day tour, which ends on Friday with


a meeting of the commonwealth's heads of state. That's all from me


for now, I'll be back just before ten with the headlines. Well, the


papers in a minute but first let's get Labour's take on Gaddafi's fall


and what it all means for our defence policy with the Shadow


Defence Secretary, Jim Murphy, who joins us from Glasgow. Good morning.


Do you think as a country we still have moral responsibility for what


happens now in Libya? It is a fragile situation, and in some


respects a dangerous one. Undoubtedly we do, and part of that


responsibility is getting to the bottom of what happened to Colonel


Gaddafi. No one really mourns his death but we need to get to the


fact. Having engaged rightly in the military operations in Libya, we


have to engage in creating peace. Despite the professionalism of our


forces, will have to engage to try to build something better. So this


will be a financial commitment for some time to come? It will be


financial, and also political. On the military side, I hope the


British government can persuade some of those NATO allies to carry


most of the burden in rebuilding the country because it is right


that we got involved in the way we did, but it can't always be us and


a small number of nations to do the fighting and stabilising. Our


forces are stretched in Afghanistan and what elsewhere. We have a new


defence secretary of course now. What would be your message to him


about the highly controversial cuts that have for been made to the


military? Can any of those be reversed? Is it practical politics


to look again at some of the issues surrounding the aircraft carriers?


Philip will prove he is his own man. Liam Fox in his role as Defence


Secretary had a headlong rush into removing many of our capabilities.


Look at Libya again as an example. There will be sailors who will be


sacked, ships that will be scrapped and aircraft that will be


decommissioned. They did a remarkable job in Libya but if it


had happened a couple of years from now, we would not have the


capability we deployed now. My message is really to look afresh at


the security and the Defence security review, to see if things


can be done more gently and slowly, and maintain the credibility.


will be speaking to Alex Salmond. It seemed the Scottish will have


three choices - the status quo, full independence, or something


that has been referred to as devolution Max. Is that something


that Labour in Scotland could support? May have got to explain


what it is they are trying to do with devolution marks, it is not


quiet clear what it means. They have got to be making a choice, to


be part of the UK or not. One of the things which is clear now is


the era of scrutiny free assertion by the SNP is coming to an end. If


you want to break up the UK, you have got to have answers about


currency, membership of the EU, pensions and so much else they --


so much else besides. It is my country, it is my flak, I am a


passionate Scotsman and I want what is best for Scotland, and most


people believe that his remaining part of the UK. One of the most


successful nations ever seen on this earth. Tomorrow in the House


of Commons people will be talking about a referendum on British


membership of the EU. A huge number of Labour supporters would also


like to see such a referendum, and indeed quite a few Labour MPs. Is


it write to be whipping them tomorrow? They have a referendum,


and a Conservative Party that didn't have it on their manifesto,


being demanded of them by so many of their backbenchers. It will


remind many of the people in the country of the Major government. We


have high unemployment, a minister resigning because of bad behaviour,


and massive schisms about Europe. It is the way the Tories seem to


behave whenever they are in government. We won't do the


opportunistic thing, we will give a gold-plated guarantee to David,


that we will protect him from his own Euro-sceptics in the vote.


Thank you. Now to the papers. Here is a few


headlines for years. The Sunday Times is leading on a story saying


University entries are dropping like a stone, this is after the


hike in fees coming in next year. It quotes one University in London


says applications are down by 40%. We have talked about the vote in


the House of Commons, put the Observer have another story here


saying the population of the world could grow to 15 billion people by


2100. That is much higher than people have expected. The Sunday


Express, the BBC blows your cash on 100 leading parties, about parties


for BBC staff allegedly. Or I can say is the Andrew Marr Show has a


Christmas party and we pay for every crumb of bread and drop of


wine ourselves. The Sunday Telegraph - new euro empire plot by


Brussels, we will pick up on that as well. The Independent on Sunday


has the map of what is happening in the Arab Spring. Finally, because


we have Alex Salmond on later on, Scotland on Sunday says Alex


Salmond faces a backlash, and that is from Scottish nationalists who


worry the middle option of devolution light might make it


harder to win full independence. And with me to review the papers


are John Redwood and Shami Chakrabarti. We are going to start


with Gaddafi. Back in Libya, I'm afraid, and a few more ghoulish


moment of dwelling on these pictures of the dead dictator. I


was glad to hear Jim Murphy and others saying we must investigate


the circumstances around the death. Interestingly, people didn't say


that about Bin Laden, but I do think it is important when you take


on these great interventions and struggles in freedom's name that


what follows should be built on the rule of law, which does not include


targeted assassination, if that is what has happened here. You could


argue that it is better for Libya that there will not be a trial.


Whether it is trials in the UK or the Hague, there are so many


convenient reasons and excuses. are in favour of trials.


The thought is worth less and less people accept the general rules. --


in the vote is worthless. Absolutely. Here is Peter Hitchens


in the Mail on Sunday. He is coming from the right and on the following


page, Suzanne Moore coming from the left. Both say much the same thing.


Colonel Gaddafi was cruelly murdered by a mob. This discussed


example is typical of the sordid revelations that our government has


decided to endorse. The British media reported the spectacle in


gleeful columns. I do not think that this is a left or right issue.


It is a bedrock issue. I think that is over the top. Did was done and a


lot of deaths were averted. Any civilian death is one death too


many. The intervention was difficult. On balance, I supported


it to prevent an atrocity. But what happens next must be based on the


rule of law. The Mail on Sunday has a very interesting opinion poll. It


shows that the majority of the public want their MPs to rebel


against a three-line whips imposed by all parties on the Europe issue.


It also shows enormous support for the idea of renegotiating as soon


as possible. People feel we do not get a good deal and they know that


Europe is going through a massive change. Surely this is the natural


moment for Britain to say, we want a different relationship? We want


to be friends with them, but we do not want a government. We have


heard Jim Murphy saying that people will help Labour out against their


own liable. -- rebels. Over 100,000 people have said we wanted to


debate this. I admire the Prime Minister's stance. He has said that


when people want something debated in Parliament, we should debated.


Parliament should be responsive. I want a free vote on this so


Parliament can express its view. Now you have the government whips


putting real pressure on presumably people like you. It looks like the


Government will lose some of his junior members. That is a


possibility. It is clear that the Government, because most Labour MPs


and because almost all Liberal- Democrat MPs will vote against it,


that they will win by a country mile. But the public will want to


feel that their view was taken seriously and that there is a body


in the House of Commons are like to express its view. That is what the


electors want, it is what they put us there today. I would have


terrible trouble back home if I voted with the Government on Monday.


It is not that this is legislation passed next week that would pull


Britain out of the EU. It would have a clarifying effect for the


future. Why do you think David Cameron is being this then? I do


not know. He would be better advised not to do it for the reason


I have described. He can defeat the motion, but if he does it in a


sensible way, it would be better for him. I find a Liberal Democrat


hypocrisy breathtaking. They were the only party who campaigned in


the last election for a referendum on Europe and now they have a


chance to vote for it. This debate becomes intermingled abide debates


on Human Rights. It is very unhelpful. I think we need a


greater clarity on this. We have the Independent On Sunday setting


out a -- a setting egg some of the rebels. A lot of the brand new


intake of Conservative sick -- Conservatives are obviously


concerned about this. These MPs are very disappointed if they are not


allowed to vote in because they believe in. Your next story, Shami,


the east of Europe. We're going to Russia, this is the Litvinenko


assassination. Apparently a coroner in London has ruled that Mrs


Litvinenko is entitled to more of an investigation than we have had


so far. This comes hot on the heels of the report into Britain's


extradition arrangements. It is a classic moral dilemma for


governments because every time ministers go to Moscow they say,


stop talking about Litvinenko if you want to stop speaking about are


the serious matters with us. Absolutely and we're told that the


Russian Federation does not allow extradition of security agents. And


yet Britain's extradition arrangements allow people to be


parcelled off around the world. That is a good point. You have


chosen Greeks bearing large cheques books for your next story. Yeah s,


there are a lot of rich Greeks, we are told. The Sunday Times has this


story that tells us that a lot of rich Greeks are taking their money


out, and taking themselves off to homes elsewhere, particularly in


London, so Greece is not getting the benefit of their spending. They


are paying a ever crazier prices for land and properties so British


people are being priced out. People are fleeing Greece because of the


euro. She ramie, another story from you. We have had the London Film


Festival. -- Shami Chakrabarti. Phelan continues to be a way that


lots of us look at the world. There is a film coming out next week. It


is based on a novel dealing with the civil rights struggle in the


Deep South, in the 1950s. I got to see it in America over the summer,


but it has proved desperately controversial. Why? Apparently some


people in the new civil rights movement in America, lots of black


Americans in particular, feel that it is patronising. It is to


saccharin for the mainstream, and yet you have got to take the whole


of the audience with you. We will be speaking about another


controversial film with Vanessa Redgrave later on. We must not miss


the inflation stories. No, and they'd is a stories here about the


inflation letters that the Bank of England governor has to write, and


how they are becoming a routine that does not mean anything.


Remember the savers, the investors, the people that do not want the


value of their money eroded. Inflation is now higher than 5%,


and people are saying, get your act together. Time for a couple of


brief last stories. St Paul's Cathedral, everyone wants to get


married there, it seems, from the royals to ordinary people.


Yesterday there was a wedding that went ahead in spite of the anti-


capitalist protest. There is a nice picture in the Mail on Sunday and


smiles all round. And yet we have this debate about the cathedral


being effectively close to the public because of the protest


outside. I believe in the right to peaceful protest. But I have not


quite work out why the cathedral has to be closed. This is a story


from the Express on Charlie Taylor, the new man going into try and sort


out school discipline so that pupils can learn more in what is


currently bad schools. There is a harrowing story of the battles he


fought to turn around the school. But he did it very well. I wish him


every success. Let's take a look at every success. Let's take a look at


the weather. Good morning. The weather looks


fairly mixed across the UK for the weekend. It is set to start on a


wet note with some heavy rain and with a brisk winds. By the end of


the weekend should turn drier and brighter with more in the way of


sunshine. It will be a wet story for Northern Ireland and Scotland


with torrential downpours this morning. Windy on the Irish Sea


coast with GUS a 50 mph. For the rest of us, it will be a bright day.


-- with winds of 50 mph. Temperatures tonight around 18


degrees in the south. Overnight, Wales will see rain. But later, it


will be dry with varying amounts of cloud. Thanks to the strength of


the winds, temperatures will stay in double figures. There will be


more rain on Monday, in the south- west and Northern Ireland. In the


East, another sunny day with lots of blue sky. But it will feel cold


in the strength of the winds. This band of rain will pieces -- this


band of rain will push east on Wednesday.


Wednesday. That is all from me.


The SNP has an overall majority in the Edinburgh parliament after the


elections this spring which resulted in the leaders of all the


other main parties resigning, which left Alex Salmond as the undisputed


big man of Scottish politics as First Minister, with an agenda


centred on giving the Scots a referendum on independence. But it


seems he wants to give them the option of independence-lite, so


what is that all about? Is he going soft in his old age. What does he


say to these critics who want to know about his Scottish military


and what currency the Scots would use? I am very relieved. I thought


you were going to call me the undisputed king of Scotland! I was


not referring to anything other than your political position. But


you are in a dominant position. I can remember you when you were slim.


You are digging yourself into a whole? -- into a hole! You're


offering a referendum which gives people full independence as one


option, the status quo as another option, but this devolution max


option in between? Can you explain what that option would mean?


Firstly, can I just say that what would be in the ballot paper is a


straight yes, no question to independence. Secondly, on the


timescale that we laid out in the election campaign, in the second


half of this parliamentary term. I know this is an unusual concept at


Westminster but we thought that we should stick to what we said in the


election. The proposal is to have a second question in the same way


that we did in 1977 which would offer fiscal autonomy option. The


point I have made is for those who propose that, for example one of my


predecessors, Henry McLeish, the Labour First Minister, to come


forward with their view on what that is. I am not for limiting the


choices of the Scottish people, I will leave that to Westminster.


you know, your critics, both on the national side and the Unionist side,


they suggest that this third option, soft option, is there because


you're not sure that you can win in independence vote? Thought you


should not be misled by Scotland On Sunday. I know that is the only


Scottish paper you have there. They are unique in their interpretation


of the SNP conference. This is an extraordinarily united party which


has doubled in size. We had to have five-over spell halls yesterday to


accommodate our conference. We are the only political party in this


island who are popular. What about the substantive point? The point is


that I'm confident that we will win the referendum on Scottish


independence. We will offer that yes, no question on independence in


the timescale that we said we would. What currency within independent


Scotland have? We would keep the it -- in the sterling until it was to


Scotland's economic advantage to join the euro. That is a position


not unlike that held by various political parties in the United


Kingdom over the years. Would you have an independent Scottish


military? Yes, we would, because there are two big advantages of


having that, one is that you would be able to decide not to take part


in a legal war such as Iraq, or to take part in United Nations


sanction the actions, like protecting the people of Libya. The


other reason is of course it would allow it the removal of weapons of


mass destruction, the obscenity of spending �100 billion on a new


generation of Trident missiles. These are two overwhelming reasons


for having an independent Scottish armed forces. These would co-


operate with our western allies and We know there is major new


investment going into North Sea and Atlantic oil so you would expect


revenues from that, but on the other side would an independent


Scotland accept its share of debt, which, there would be about �77


billion worth. Yes, and the only thing that makes it Palin to


insignificance is the size of the United Kingdom debt, pushing to one


trillion pounds. It is a big number and it is only dwarfed by the


trillion pound assert that the remaining North Sea assets revenues


would bring. The United Kingdom unfortunately has debts which are


extraordinary, and the asset don't tend to match up to it. We are very


happy to be reasonable, to accept our obligations as well as claiming


ownership of our own resources. It is not trust investment in the


North Sea we have seen in Scotland. We have seen major international


companies, all Jews in Scotland as the base for their international


operations. In your waters, do you think Scotland will be independent


by the end of the next parliament in Edinburgh? In my heart, in my


head, I think Scotland will become an independent country within the


European Community with a friendly relationship in these islands.


would like to ask you about Libya because the final fall of the


Gaddafi regime does give the opportunity for reopening some of


the questions about what really happened over Lockerbie and all of


that. Would you welcome that, and what steps will be taken from


Edinburgh to start to reopen that story and get the truth? I do


welcome that, and of course I welcome the fact that the new


transitional government have said to our Crown Office they will co-


operate fully with Scottish police and prosecutors in supplying any


information that comes forward. They have made it clear that if


substantial information comes forward, this is an open case and


could lead to further proceedings. I welcome that progress.


wouldn't tried to have al-Megrahi request and or brought back in any


way? I don't see the intent of purpose in bringing him back from


Libya to Scotland. He was released under Scots law. This long as he


conforms to the licence of release, there is no reason to do that. In


terms of the full Crown Office already being involved in asking


for the questions, and I welcome the information offered by the new


Libyan government to make further progress, this remains an open


investigation. No one suggested al- Megrahi acted alone. That leaves


the investigation open and hopefully we can make progress.


Alex Salmond, thank you. She may be from one of Britain's


great acting dynasties but Vanessa Redgrave has always been a


vigorously rebellious outsider who is never happier than when she's


assailing the establishment. For nearly 50 years she has championed


radical, unpopular causes. Her off- stage life has been one of drama,


heartache, triumph and loss. She is currently starring in London's West


End, and has two intriguing new films out soon, both with a


Shakespearean link. Here she is as an unforgettable Elizabeth I in


Anonymous. Are you the gift, my gracious little man? No, my


gracious Majesty. I am a free man. The gift is a play. Plays are the


work of the devil. Comedy or tragedy? Comedy, Your Majesty.


whom? By anonymous, Your Majesty. Anonymous. I so admire his verse.


Welcome. Anonymous there, because the idea behind this play is that


it wasn't the man from Stratford who wrote Shakespeare's works, but


actually the Earl of Oxford, which is... I know lots of leading


Shakespearean actors believe this, but there is no evidence, is there?


They raised as much evidence for it, I would counter, as there is for


the actor Shakespeare having written the plays that carried his


name. It is great fun, this, wonderful recreation through CGI of


what Elizabethan London might have been like. But you didn't have, as


a long-term actress, you didn't have any worries about undermining


the Shakespeare position in a film like this? I hope all films are


sent out to schools in the UK, in Europe, and in America and


Australia and Asia and Africa. Of course I hope, because I think


enquiry's contribute to understanding, and because I do


think this is an enthralling film, wonderful film, I think as I was


checking up what on earth I could say to you quickly - and I am not


good at being quick dash for this morning, but I was checking that


what George Bernard Shaw said that all hypotheses lead to a very


viable solution. There have been a lot of inquiries over the years,


but it is sort of an industry you know, Shakespeare, so it's not a


challenge to say it everybody is rubbish who believes that the actor


William Shakespeare wrote those plays, but I do wonder, being an


actor myself, and having acted in companies over months, etc, I don't


know if it is possible to write those plays while you are working


full-time as an actor. So it is that, rather than the argument that


he was not educated enough? don't know if he was educated at


all. We don't have to be educated to be a very good actor. But she


would have to be educated to write those plays. A you would, of course


you would. They carry a breadth and depth of mentality and philosophy


that are rare anytime, anyplace, and certainly were rare in those


times. It does strike me also, Ben Johnson was buried in Westminster


Abbey, Edwin Spencer whose poetry I don't like but is considered and


certainly was by his contemporaries the great poet, buried in


Westminster Abbey. William Shakespeare wasn't buried in


Westminster Abbey. That is an interesting question. One of the


Stratford argument is that many of the Shakespeare plays came out


after the Earl of Oxford had died. One of those is of course


Coriolanus, which is a fantastic explanation about a military hard


man rising to power. A proud nobleman, yes. Of great nobility


and pride and martial combat. you play his mother from this


powerful military family. The film has been made in the Balkans with a


contemporary Balkan twist to it. don't think it is particularly a


Balkan twist. There are tourists everywhere, not only in the Balkans.


But this is a contemporary story of the rise and then fall of the sort


of brute innocence. No, the more studies of the period right across


Europe, as well as in England, started very early on in the 1400s,


ending in the late Renaissance, the more you see the extraordinary,


especially during the Elizabethan years, the extraordinary


combination in the nobles of bestiality, yes, cruelty, yes, and


extraordinary education and culture combined with a love of the arts.


That is known as a Renaissance mentality because we haven't seen


such people exist at any other time. We remember the art and forget the


cruelty sometimes. I don't because I have studied the history so much.


Before we finish... I don't know if Shakespeare was William the actor,


they don't forget the cruelty either, that is what most of the


plays are about. I must ask you about Driving Miss Daisy, a very


well known film in its time. wonderful play. This is very much


about themes of bigotry. You could connected with the help you would


just speaking about in the newspapers. It is a true story


based on Alfred Uhry's own mother and her generation, and James Earl


Jones is superb. I love playing in it. It is a big challenge. It has


got a lot of texture, and the more we play it the more we realise that


there is contained in these apparently simple scenes, and we do


make the audience very happy. you aged over the course of this


play, a long period of time. Yes, I am nearly 100 by the time at the


end. Thank you. We will see a few images of that. I admire you to


have that discussion so quickly. Thank you. Great to have you on.


I am still in control of what goes on in my car. Where are you going?


To the grocery store. Turn down more Holland Avenue. I know where


it is, and I want to go. That is three blocks out of the way.


back, this minute. Driving Miss Daisy.


Philip Hammond has taken over as defence secretary at a curious time.


The war against Gaddafi is over, and the most controversial defence


cuts for many years have been announced. But Libya will be partly


his responsibility, and there is Afghanistan and the armed forces


feeling bruised by the cuts. Welcome. Can I ask first bought the


same question I was asking Jim Murphy. Do you think we have moral


responsibility for what happens now in Libya? The international


community that came together to support the Libyans and allow them


to liberate their country does have ongoing responsibility, yes.


Including us. That will mean some kind of continuing financial and


potentially military commitment? will certainly mean a commitment to


help them with their reconstruction effort, but let's be clear - Libya


is potentially a rich country. It is oil-producing. The military


campaign executed with professionalism by the UK and other


armed forces has carefully avoided major damage to the infrastructure


so the number one priority will be to get Libya back on its feet so it


can generate the wealth that will enable it to create reconstruction.


That will be the choice of direction. We know this is a


country where there are many different tribes with a history of


fighting each other. It has only had one election in its entire


history. It is a dangerous place and there is a possibility of the


breakdown of law and order before too long. We have intervened in the


way we did under the UN resolution to protect Libyan civilians while


they freed themselves from the tyranny of Gaddafi. They have to


work out how to take Libya forward, they have to work out what their


future is. The announcement of elections within eight months is a


good step forward but it is for the Libyan people to work out how to


form the coalition of interests that will be necessary. He was a


brutal dictator, but do you feel queasy about the way Colonel


Gaddafi met his end? It is not the way we do things, not the way we


would have liked it happen. We would have liked to see him go on


trial ideally to answer for his misdeeds, not only in Libya but the


many acts of terrorism he supported and perpetrated outside Libya of


which we in Britain have a disproportionately large number of


victims. Still not a great start to the fledgling democracy, and


presumably you would like to see an investigation into what happened?


Yes, and the fledgling Libyan government will understand its


reputation in the international community is a little bit stained


by what happened on Friday. I'm sure it will want to get to the


bottom of it in a way that rebuilds There are lots of controversy is


about the fact that he will not have an effective aircraft carrier


for a long time in this island nation. The Conservatives promise


three extra battalions in the army and so on. Is your attitude that


that is a done deal, 80 is over, it is finished, or can any of these


things be reopened by a brand new Defence Secretary? The review is


completed and it sets out the broad architecture forward their forces


of Britain, to make them adaptable for the future. Within those fixed


points, there is still some flexibility about how we deliver


the reconfiguration of Britain's forces. But remember what we


inherited. We had a massive budget deficit to deal with, which meant


that defence had to make its contribution to dealing with that


problem. But we also had a legacy of a completely unrealistic


equipment programme stretching forward 20 years, with all sorts of


items of equipment we were going to buy but no idea how we were going


to pay for them. Liam Fox took some tough decisions in order to ensure


that later in this decade we will have a configuration of armed


forces that is appropriate for our needs and is sustainable. Those


people who are hoping that the army does not have to shrink below


85,000, those people who think there should be some way of looking


again at the decision on the aircraft carrier and getting


aircraft to go on it, our day without hope, candy have renewed


hope? Those people who have those ideas have to say how they would


finance those aspirations. That means cutting something else


somewhere else. We have a Ministry of Defence which has more Generals


than effective tanks. Surely you have to look again at that?


Absolutely, and part of the programme is about restructuring


the MoD, to get the structure right for the future, to deliver the


maximum punch for the front line. Tomorrow's vote in the House of


Commons, a three-line whip, that is crazy, why pick a fight with


Conservatives raw only trying to represent what Conservative voters


and their own constituents want them to do? Because it is not


government policy to have a referendum on Britain's membership


of the European Union. That is not what we fought the last election on.


Your Own Private Secretary is one of those people who may lose his


job tomorrow over this. He may vote against the Government. You are


going to lose some good people. a start, my private secretary is a


woman, not a sea. By due are going to lose good people and it seems


like a waste? The Government has set out clearly its position on


Europe. William Hague has said that we need to be in Europe but not run


by Europe. We have a clear preference to repatriate powers


from Europe and plan to do so as and when the opportunity arises.


But right now, the urgent issue is sorting out the crisis in the


Eurozone because although we are not part of the Eurozone, 40 % of


our trade is with the Eurozone. Investment, job prospects, economic


growth in Britain are all threatened by the current crisis in


the Eurozone. Just to be clear, whatever happens, the three-line


whip remains? The three-line whip remains because the motion is


contrary to government policy. Government has imposed a three-line


whip to protect its policy when a motion is laid in the Commons that


contradicts it. Why his government spending rising so fast? Why his


government spending rising? Yes. The trajectory of government


spending is falling. Government spending has gone up a lot in the


past year, 9%? There are automatic stabilisers, as the economy has


slowed, spending on welfare increases, tax receipts fall. These


are what are called automatic stabilisers which helped to balance


the economy. So it is the tanker turning round slowly? Yes. George


Osborne has said that the plan for deficit reduction is flexible


enough to allow the automatic stabilisers to work. Crisis


meetings in Europe, it is all terribly confusing, but do you feel


that we're in a position where the French and the Germans will come


together and at last there will be a deal big enough to head off this


crisis? That is the challenge that the Eurozone countries face and we


hope that the French and the Germans will provide the leadership


to bring the Eurozone together, to face up to the challenges that it


faces, and if you like, the logic of the construct of the Eurozone,


and to deal with it decisively, so that we in the UK as well as in the


rest of Europe can move on and put in place what is necessary for


growth. And if they cannot agree this next week? If they cannot


agree this, the Eurozone moves closer to the edge. We're all


acutely conscious that we are facing a major threat, not just


towards the economic future of Europe, but the economic stability


of the whole global system. It is crucial that the European step up


to the plate and meet the challenges that they face. Which


means the banks accepting that Greek beds have to be written off?


Which probably means that banks have to accept a significant


reduction in the value of their greed debts. There will have to be


a larger bail-out fund for the future to keep the credibility of


the euro as a currency going forward. Now over to Naga for the


news headlines. Philip Hammond has confirmed that


there will be a three-line whip on tomorrow's Commons vote on whether


to allow a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU. The


Government believes there should be no such referendum at this time.


John Redwood explained why he was determined to defy this three-line


whip. The public will want to feel that their view is being taken


seriously, a lot of us are voting for the motion partly because that


is what our electors want. It is what the pooed as there today.


-- what they put us there to do. That's all from me for now. The


next news on BBC One is at midday. Now back to Andrew.


We are drawing towards the end of our allotted time, though we do


have one more treat for you this morning. Let me just trail our show


next Sunday. It's a special programme live from Australia where


the heads of government from all Commonwealth nations are meeting.


We'll be talking to several Commonwealth leaders, including the


Australian Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, and our own PM, David


Cameron. One crucial note. For one week only The Andrew Marr Show is


being shifted to BBC Two, so do please tune in if you can. But next


Sunday, October 30th, apparently due to the motor racing, you will


find us on BBC Two. Finally this morning, a musical


treat. Opera critics and fans spend hours debating who is the greatest


soprano in the world today, but one woman who is a serious contender


for that title is the Romanian star Angela Gheorghiu. Her new album is


a homage to Maria Callas, her tempestuous and legendary role


model. Famed for a fiery temperament also, Gheorghiu is a


diva of huge vocal and dramatic range, in demand at all the great


opera houses worldwide. Covent Garden is her favourite, where


she'll be reprising her much-lauded role as Mimi in La Boheme next year.


This was one of my favourite roles because I sang it everywhere, at


the Metropolitan, in Vienna, everywhere. Then I met Roberto it


in 1992. Speaking about Roberto, you has been banned another great


tenor. Is it difficult to have another great singer as your


partner? Very difficult, but very unusual at the same time. In opera,


it will never happen that the soprano and tenor have a career at


the same level. I did all the performances and recordings with


Roberto. For me, it is very difficult because my emotions are


on top. It must be difficult for you? Yes, and for him. I will put


this very gently. It is sometimes said that you have the occasional


disagreement with directors, that you have quite a fiery temperament,


which brings us to Maria Callas. Do you think that if you're a famous


artist, you have to have arguments? I am sorry to disappoint you, I


have never had one word or two to raise my voice to somebody. This is


going to destroy your reputation. will destroy my reputation knife.


The worst thing I did, twice, just twice in my entire career, I just


left. You just walked out. You are going to sing something for us at


the end. There are others which are longer than Carmen, there are


operas that are funnier than Carmen, but no operas sexier than Carmen.


Yes. There are some, but I feel very sexy in my career. Also in


Tosca. No offence for Carmen. In Carmen, we are naked, we have the


possibility. To go like this. The character has more. You know what I


mean? The sum you are singing is going to be called Habanera? Yes.


The composer road two of them. This one, everybody knows. It is a folk


L'amour est un oiseau rebelle. Que nul ne peut apprivoiser. Et


c'est bien in vain qu'on l'appelle. S'il lui convient de refuser.


Rien n'y fait, menace ou priere. L'un parle bien, l'autre se tait.


Et c'est l'autre que je prefere. Il n'a rien dit mais il me plait.


L'amour! L'amour! L'amour! L'amour! L'amour est enfant de Boheme. Il


n'a jamais jamais connu de loi. Si tou ne m'aimes pas, je t'aime. Si


je t'aime, prends garde a toi! Si tou ne m'aimes pas, si tou ne


m'aimes pas, je t'aime. Mais si je t'aime, si je t'aime, prends garde


L'amour est enfant de Boheme. Il n'a jamais jamais connu de loi. Si


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