30/10/2011 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning from the most remote major city on the planet. Perth,

Western Australia, where politicians from 53 countries all

around the world representing about a third of the earth's population,

have been meeting for the Commonwealth Conference. Because of

the dramatic strike and grounding of Australia's national airline,

Qantas, many are now stuck here with only a cloudless sky and

unlimited quantities of cold beer to sustain them. I'm sure every

Well, this had been build as a watershed meeting for the

Commonwealth, a chance to demonstrate its relevance at a time

of huge global change, economic crisis, the shift to Asia and the

outpouring of people and human rights in the Arab Spring. It was a

chance to prevent human rights aBruce abuses, even the Queen tried

to encourage them to be bold. But they didn't go as far as some

wanted. Inside chockium inside the Conference Centre, CHOGM has ended

and I've been talking to David Cameron and Paul Kagame, who is

President of Rwanda, credited with rebuilding his country after the

terrible genocide there, but his critics say there is blood on his

hands. As always, we have been digesting the papers, the

Australian papers, that is, with a native of these parts, from the

Daily Mail, Amanda Platell, and we're joined by the Secretary-

General of the Commonwealth, appointed for another four years,

Kamlesh Sharma snoip and And I'm here in London to talk to our most

distinguished writer of detective stories, PD James. But what

inspired her to bring murder into Jane Austen's world?. First the

news. Armed guards could be placed on board British-flagged vessels in

a radical attempt to protect them from Somali pirates. The Prime

Minister said it was a complete stab stain on our world that

pirates were hijacking ships around the Horn of Africa. Mr Cameron

argued that pirates don't target ships with armed guards on board.

Emergency talks are under way in Australia to try to resolve a

dispute that has grounded all Qantas airline flights. The

company's entire fleet has been grounded after workers went on

strike over pay and conditions. The Australian Prime Minister, Julia

Gillard has warned that the country's economy is at risk.

Le Empty concourses and vacant stairs, the Qantas flying operation

is at a stand still and the check- in desks are idol and passage

injures' plans are thrown into confusion. Not very happy, because

it's a life-time trip for us and cost a fortune. And we've been told

to rebook. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

A special industrial tribunal is under way to try to end the dispute.

Qantas ground all its aircraft following a series of strikes by

unions. The unions say they're just trying to stop their jobs being

moved to Asia. If this tribunal condition' resolve the crisis, the

Government has the power to intervene directly and command that

Qantas starts again. The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard says if

this dispute carries on it could affect the whole of the Australian

economy. It's costing the airline $20 million a day in lost revenue

and an untold amount in damage to its reputation.

Households in England could see a cut of �20 in their annual council

tax bill under new Government proposals. Next year's council tax

has already been frozen. Tomorrow, the Communities Secretary, Eric

Pickles says he wants the discount to be phased out on second homes

and ministers say the amount made which removing the discount could

help reduce the tax on other households. Thousands have turned

out to see the Queen on her final day in Australia at the

Commonwealth meeting. It was build as the big Aussie

barbecue, but when the moment came the sausages and steaks were left

to sizzle as people tried to catch a glimpse of the guest of honour.

And from that guest, who has visited so many countries during

her reign, a feeling that this visit has meant a lot. I can think

of no more fitting way to end my invite here than in this idyllic

river setting which I have enjoyed on so many occasions. We will

return to the United Kingdom with fond memories of our time here and

the warm Australian welcome we have received on our 16th visit to this

beautiful country. Yes, 2011 will be remembered. There

was the historic visit to Ireland and a Royal wedding to look back on,

a dupld jubilee to look forward to next year. Was this her final visit

to Australia? As things stand at the moment, don't anyone believe it.

That's all from me for now. I'll be back just before ten o'clock with

the headlines, back to Andrew in Perth.

So here we are in windy Western Australia, a place about the same

size as Western Europe, but with a population of little more than two

million people. And they haven't heard the word, "Recession" here.

This place is booming, above all because of mining. They're digging

out the iron ore, copper and lead and they're selling it mainly to be

Chinese. So you might think that this was a kind of economic

paradise, but it doesn't feel quite that way to Western Australians, or

Australians generally. This is a very expensive country. They have

big problems and great worries about climate change and the

environment. A huge argument going on at the moment about a carbon tax.

They have lots of labour problems as well. The national airline,

Qantas, is grounded at the momentment and in an even bigger

sense, there is a debate about the future. Are they selling themselves

body and soul to China? Is this becoming a kind of new Chinese

economic colony? Well, Prime Minister, Julia Gillard said at the

closing press conference that one of her plans was to showcase

Australia at the CHOGM. But the image has been badly dented by the

Qantas strike. We had hoped to speak to Ms Gillard, but she has

just jetted off in her Government plane, and leaving the rest behind,

but she said this about the strike. The Government is seeking to bring

industrial action to an end and to have the dispute resolved so that

we can proceed with certainty, with our iconic airline, Qantas,

proceeding properly and with the circumstances where employees and

Qantas know what the future holds for them. As I made clear yesterday,

we took this action when the dispute escalated, we did it

because we were concerned about damage to the national economy. So

the hearings at Fair Work Australia are in train, as we speak, as a

result of the Government's action. Can I say again to Qantas and to

the trade unions involved in this dispute, I believe Australians want

to see this dispute settled. I want to see it settled and we have taken

the appropriate action before Fair Work Australia to bring the matter

before the industrial umpire. time for the papers. Australians

don't really have our tradition of Sunday newspapers as such. They

tend to be weekend papers. This is the Weekend West. And this is a

story about the accession rules change now. And this is about the

woman who would have been Queen now had this rule about the first

daughter taking over in Queen Victoria's day. And she is a

homeopathic Dr And the Queen's visit and Qantas

are the two huge stories running here. And finally the Weekend

Australia, which is almost square shaped. There's a big argument over

whether the Government should have intervene in the Qantas strike

earlier or not. So, welcome to you both. I should

explain to viewers that we are wearing Australian poppies, which

are rather different from British poppies. Rather nice I think. A

little bit smaller, but a little more accurate, and more like

poppies. Amanda, start for us. of Queen coverage. Even the closure

of the nations main airline could not knock the Queen off the front

pages. She has had the most fantastic exposure since she

arrived. Everyone has commented on her clothes and that she is a good

sport. And this is the Sunday times, "Our Queen" note that republicans,

and that's been the most extraordinary thing. There's been

no sign of it. I thought I would be covering quite a republican

movement here. And people always say that every time the Queen

visits the country it sets back the support for a rub blick tsh-for a

republic 20 years. And this is a country that had a referendum that

was narrowly lost. Nigh And there was the visit to the Tomb of the

Unknown Soldier, it's very, very important for them to pay tribute

to the Commonwealth soldiers who fought with the British troops in

the wars. And the Queen as well has been a rock star for the

Commonwealth. I can imagine all this coverage. She would get it in

any Commonwealth country she went to and more. The Commonwealth has

been very, very important to her right from the start. It's hard to

perceive what warmth and affection the Queen has received elsewhere.

There is hardly a Commonwealth country now that has not known the

Queen as the head. It is part of her charm, and modesty and

attraction and her sense of duty. And she's obviously been very

closely involved with the Commonwealth right from the

beginning. Not only involved, but everyone knows in her heart she is

a big defender of the Commonwealth. I had an opportunity to speak to

Her Majesty, I have an twunt about twice a year, when - an opportunity

to speak to her about twice a hear h year and I take a lot of

encouragement from here. And you've chosen a couple of Queeny stories

from the papers. The first about women as agents of change. Girls

win the right to rule. This is an iconic perfect, because you won't

be able to put this together again. Just to explain to people, the

Queen obviously, Julia Gillard, the Prime Minister of Australia and two

other female leaders there from Pakistan and Trinidad and Tobago.

That's not Pakistan, Bangladesh. beg your pardon, Bangladesh. And

this lady, she was Chair of the Commonwealth. That's right and for

the first time in an organisation, one woman head of government was

handing over to another woman head of government. Particularly in a

big organisation like the Commonwealth. Mind you, there are

54 states, 5 here, and there are only three headed by women. So it

is not much of an achievement. it is the first woman Prime

Minister of Australia, so that's an achievement. And all the papers are

full of CHOGM and the main story is about the accession. Which some say

is a triumph, but it is the only triumph. I'd like to say on the

realms, there are 38 other countries, and the Queen is equally

popular in those countries as well. But there has been a lot of

disappointment reflected on the papers that it was not possible to

go further on the gay rights issue, which divides the Commonwealth

deeply. I've been very clear, when I speak on behalf of the

Commonwealth that you have to have reconciliation between your

domestic laws and the values you subscribe to. Most of the laws are

colonial laws on homosexuality which have never been changed,

they've just been inherited. So what is required is a change in a

legal way, to say, "Look, this is what we no longer believe in" so

can you find a legal way of changing that, and some countries

have done it. And talk of changing titles earlier

on, First Bloke is great. It's great. The First Bloke, I don't

think we've got a picture of him. don't think so. But to explain, the

First Bloke is the partner There he is. Is the partner of Julia Gillard.

He's a hairdresser, is that right? Yes, he does her hair, so there's

no-one else to blame. And he's been showing the other wives around.

We're going to talk more in a second, but let's go to London

where Sophie has some news for us We certainlyly do. We have the

front pages in the UK. There's very little mention of the Queen on the

front pages today, instead it's Jimmy Saville who is in all the

papers after the sad news of his death yesterday. And the other

story, all women get the right to Caesareans. That's going to be

announced this week, apparently. And the Sunday Telegraph, Jimmy

Saville again. And challenge Syria at your pearl, President Assad

tells the West. And the cover up at St Pauls, and the Observer, more

Jimmy Saville and the Tories on Europe. And the Sunday Mirror,

following Vincent Tabak's being found guilty of the murder of

Joanna Yeates last week, the big story in that.

And I have with me to review the papers, speech writer to Tony Blair

and journalist, Phil Collins. the Sunday Times here, under the

title Birth of the United States apparently David Cameron didn't

sleep at all on the flight over to Perth because he's so worried about

the European Union issue. And this story will keep running within

British politics, 81 Tory MPs rebelled last week and they have

iron in their soul on this question. The thing they always do on this is

mistake the fact that the public likes their view on Europe for

thinking the public cares as much as they do. So it was as if I was

to say, "I think Marr is the best show on television" and you'd agree

with me, but if I kept going on about it, you'd think I was a bit

peculiar, that and that's they can't stop doing about Europe, they

can't stop talking about it. they have to define David Cameron's

position within the EU? Yes, David Cameron now has made a series of

promises, which I don't think he can keep to his on backbenchers. So

that story will keep going. looking at the Telegraph, the story

about Italy on the brink. They have huge public debt. The way this is

ram fiing now across Europe is fascinating. So Silvio Berlusconi,

who is on trial for tax fraud and a whole load of other things, is

perhaps near the end. He's being held up in government by Bossi, a

separatist, weirdly, who is holding the European dream together and

Berlusconi is now really on the brink and Italy has to come through

with some serious structural reforms, otherwise they're going to

collapse too. So if this crisis goes to another country, it will be

Italy. And Jimmy Saville is in every single paper, quite rightly.

84 years old and it's extraordinary when you read some of his

achievements. 212 marathons. That's what I can't believe, having tried

one! An incredible life. On the first and the last Top of the Pops.

And the fantastic Jim'll Fix It, which anyone of a certain age will

remember. And I wrote to it. So did I. He was such a colourful

character. He was an extraordinary character. And a brilliant DJ.

People forget about that. People from a later vintage don't realise

he was there at the beginning when popular music went into

broadcasting. He was there at the beginning. He's part of the

furniture of our lives. Let's finish with the story about the

protest outside St Paul's Cathedral. The Independent are running that as

their main story this morning. Independent have an interesting

piece that St Paul's institute, which is like the internal think

thank of the cathedral, had a report, which they didn't publish

last week, about the morality of pay. And that's exactly the sort of

thing that the Church should be doing but they didn't publish it.

And the reason they say they didn't was because it was critical of the

pay in the City. And pay in the City went shooting up, and I think

they should be publishing it. Everybody xepts the right to

protest, of course they do, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have

the right to invite 500 of your mates and camp anywhere you like.

They're two different rights. We need to balance the right to

protest with the right to walk through St Paul's Cathedral. Thank

you very much. Now back to Australia.

Sophie, thank you very much indeed Back here, we're going to carry on

talking a bit about CHOGM, because part of the mood is summed up by

this newspaper headline: What's it all about? And they show the best

and the worst of the conference highlights and low lights. Amman

Amanda? This is a piece that is savage about the Commonwealth

meeting. It says it's a comic book phantom of international

organisations, it is the ghost that walks. And you come in for some

stick in this, I must say. These stories are fine. Things shouldn't

go to my head. I keep an open mind. I look at the point they're making.

The week before last, one foundation, which is very credible

for giving good governance awards in Africa, gave out their results

for last year. In the first eight countries that got a ranking there,

seven are Commonwealth countries. In the last ten countries there's

not a single one, so there's obviously something we're doing

right. The eminent persons's group who produced a report, they were

keen on the idea for there to be an independent commissioner for human

rights. You've just been given another four years. Do you think by

the time you leave the job there will be such a post? I think it

will happen much quicker. There is a group of ministers who now will

be able to look at how you treat your judiciary, your media, your

Opposition and constitution and so on. So the whole thing is coming

back to me, including this idea in order to develop a coherent,

upgraded mechanism. So it hasn't been protected, it's just come to

me to be put in a way that it will work. And that includes countries

like Bangladesh which has a very poor human rights history at the

moment. And the next chockium assist going to be there which has

caused some criticism. All cogiums in the future will follow this

template. I think there has to be some sympathy with the travel, the

real trust is are sincere over human rights, it's not the event,

it's the intent and we will look into that as well. Thank you very

much both of you for now. Over to the weather. It's been glorious

here in Perth in the last few days, very welcome for us sun-starved

Poms, but now Chris is here to tell Poms, but now Chris is here to tell

you about the weather where you are. It's not as hot here as it is in

Perth, however, the temperatures are way above where they should be

for this time of the year. Look at this chart. We're running

about four or five degrees Celsius above where they should be at this

time in October. The drizzle is petering out and

we'll see increasing sunshine across England and Wales today. But

overnight, a band of rain will push across south- west England and

Wales and that will push up towards the west of Scotland but it will be

another mild night with temperatures in double figures.

On Monday, more sunshine should break out across the south-east of

England and East Anglia by the afternoon, but this band of rain

will make its way into Western Scotland, Wales and the south-east

of Ireland. But it will continue to be warmer than average for the rest

be warmer than average for the rest of the weekend. Thanks, Chris. The

Rawandan genocide of the 1990s was one of the darkest periods of

Africa's history. More than 800,000 people were slaughtered, some with

simple machetes. Eventually the forces of Paul Kagame's Rawandan

Patriot Front stopped the Civil War. He became President and introduced

very successful economic reforms, but his human rights have been

criticised and his presence here at CHOGM has been criticised. Rwanda

is the newest country to join the Commonwealth, but it has no British

colonial history, French, Belgium and German, but not British, so

when I met with President Kagame I asked him: Why join? It can help us

with the many needs Rwanda has, whether it's about foreign direct

investment, about trade, it's about education. It's about different

areas of our development we find that being in the family of nations

of the Commonwealth is very beneficial. What do you say to

those people that Africa is a continent that never seems to

change, it never gets better, it's mired in cycles of violence and

political stagnation? Those people are wrong. Certainly Africa is on

the move and there is tremendous improvement. And the people need to

recognise that and accept it as part of life. Africa has huge

resources and people should simply do better by not looking at Africa

as a place where it has to do charities or humanitarian yarian

cases, it is a place to invest. Almost all the commentators on your

country say similar things, that you've achieved great growth rates,

that this is a clean, relatively safe, well-ordered country. However

they also say you have a poor record on human rights,

particularly on democracy. That the opposition parties against you, I

think two were banned, three of them were unable to run against you

in the election, and that if you simply look at the 93% that you got,

no Democrat sick leader in a democracy gets 93%. If you look at

this growth and the stability in the country, investment in women,

investment in our children, which is our future. If you look at

investment in infrastructure of information and commune cation,

technologies, which empowers even our ordinary people in the rural

areas. Now, if you, and for the security, it's about involving

ordinary citizens in the making of decisions and then you say, "This

is undemocratic" then I don't know what is democratic. But let me come

to the point of elections. Yes. First of all, elections are taking

place, that's one step. Now maybe you can criticise the actions.

if they are re-elections. But I think elections are better than no

elections at all. But why stop these opposition parties from

taking part? (sound loss. Political parties are not stopped in any way.

But as you know it, even in these democracies you praise the advanced.

There are always rules to play by. Can I put a suggestion to you?

right. Which is that after the terrible tribal genocide that tore

your country apart, both sides committing terrible crimes, but

particularly the Hutu starting the genocide. Your belief is to get the

country together and to move forward that you have to go through,

you are going through a period, where you have to make sure there

are no tribal bases at all and to do that you have to repress parties

and politics, and that's the dilemma you're in? No, no; I think

this is just the general perspective of somebody sitting

elsewhere and generalising. The problems are also in the government

and the Democratisation and the freedoms that Rwanda wants. It's

also organisations like Human watch and respected papers who say there

is less democratic freedom in Rwanda than Zimbabwe. Well, if you

ask Rawandans they tell you a different story. So whether you

believe the story told by somebody in The Economist or another

organisation rather than the Rawandans, that's your choice. But

I am speaking here on behalf of the Rawandans. So you're saying to me

all the stories about assassinations and the press being

repressed and about unfair blocking of political opponents that this is

all propaganda? It is absolute nonsense. There are people who

don't want to see Rwanda improve. Who don't want to believe even what

they see in Rwanda in terms of progress. We have these people.

When they have a pen, they will write, they are individuals. But

there are 11 million wrand yas and the most majority of them -

Rawandans and the most majority of them will tell you a different

story about Rwanda and about life on the ground. And it doesn't

change. Thank you very much. The controversial President of

Rwanda, Paul Kagame, speaking to me earlier. Rhys-Jonesy?

Andrew, thank you very much. Pride & Prejudice is one of the best-

loved novels in English literature. Even for those who have not read it

the story of Elizabeth Bennett and the dashing Darcy is well known and

there have been many adaptations on screen and television. But now, a

new novel is set just after the Jane Austen novel but now they are

set in a crime triller. Welcome PD James. It is rather brave to set

this novel in Jane Austen's time, why did you do it? Well, it is

rather brave, but I wanted to see if I could do it. And when I

finished my last detective story, which is very long and had a

slightly value directy air about it, I thought maybe this is the time to

do it, so I began. And I didn't realise how many people at the time

had done this. I didn't realise anyone had tried it at 58. It's

extraordinary. I know. And I haven't read any of them, because I

rather think it would so overclutter my mind. When I started

reading your book I almost felt like I was betraying Jane Austen by

reading something she never meant me to read about. And you've

written an apology into the foreword. I did rather feel that.

And like most writer, I think, one of the greatest satisfactions of

writing a book is the creation of character, I've never wanted to use

anybody's else's characters. But these characters are so much a part

of our furniture and there is a great wish to see how did Elizabeth

cope with her new life and how did Darcy cope with that terrible

mother-in-law? There are sort of slight mysteries about the novel

which intrigued me. I re-read it of course. One is always re-reading it

and finding fresh delights in it. And then I discovered, as other

people had already realised, that Elizabeth and Darcy only spent

about 30 minutes in each other's sole company between the first

dreadful proposal and the second successful one. And I also felt he

should give her some explanation as to why he proposed in that

appalling way, because the words he used to Elizabeth are not the words

a gentleman of that age, or any age, would use to a woman he purported

to love. And your skel, - sequel, you're very faithful to the words

and tone of Jane Austen and it must have been difficult to set a crime

back in the 1800s? I did try to get the crime right, but it wasn't

difficult because I've read Jane Austen and re-read Austen, - if I

was asked to do a sequel in another genre I think I'd be lost - but

somehow this wasn't so bad. I think I know what happens in a trial in

that time, but what real life is like, we are some Wahid away. And

we had a problem with pistols and there is still controversy about

that. You're an extraordinary woman, you're 91 years old and still

writing at a really, really high standard. Are you writing every

day? I was when I was doing this book, but I'm not at the moment.

I'm sort of recovering and wonderering what I should do next.

There is always a fear, one has to be honest about this, that the

creative energy isn't so great and the words don't come quite so

easily. And I couldn't bear for the standard to fall. The worst thing

would be for people to write, "Considering she wrote this at 94,

it's good but hardly the style of PD James." But that's what is so

astonishing you've gone for something completely different.

is. But it was great fun. I was living in that world, but of course

that always happens I enter into the world of the novel and I

entered into that world. And you write your novels long-hand, no

computers for you? I do. I've always done that. I write long-hand

and then I dictate to my secretary, who is absolutely invaluable to me.

And she puts it on the computer. On the whole, I'm best kept away from

the computer, as soon as I touch it does extraordinary things! And then

she prints it out and I can check it as I go. And the advantage of

that is that I can hear the rhythm of the words and hear the dialogue.

It's a wonderful way of doing it, but it depends on having someone

like my Joyce, who can produce an absolutely perfect page of

manuscript, just with me reading it. I don't have to say, "New paragraph,

exclamation mark" nothing. And that's a real skill. It is. Thank

you very much for coming in to talk to us. Oh, it's been lovely talking

to you and I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I enjoyed writing it

and I hope Jane Austen forgives me. Thank you very much, back to an

drufplt Of course Jane Austen will forgive

here. Of course it is fair to say the

Queen was the star at CHOGM and she had a family interest at the

beginning of the week, namely, to allow a first-born daughter to

accede to the throne. That was one of the issues I raised earlier with

the Prime Minister, where had the idea come from? This has been an

idea that has been around for a while. Previous prime ministers

have talked about it and promoted it. Parliament has talked about it,

the Royal Family has talked about. It has been known that we ought

really to do something about this and this was a great opportunity.

You have the heads of the 16 countries where the Queen is head

of state all together. So it was a great opportunity to write to them

in advance to try and set the issue up and we had a successful meeting

and they all agreed to go ahead. So there is still some work to be done,

but it is agreeds now that if the first-born of Prince William and

Kate is a girl, that girl will be our Queen. Fascinating, but the

other side of it, the Roman Catholic change isn't that another

unpicking of the Church of England as the established role there?

I think what we're saying here is that the current heir to the throne

could marry a Roman Catholic, just as such as they could a Hindu or a

Sikh. But the person on the thrown has to be Church of England. But

the chance to marry has gone. So we chose the two things we wanted to

do on the basis that they were the most important, could be agreed by

the 16 and they could be carried through by law. And the other great

conversation at the summit was an independent commissioner on human

rights. And it seems the Commonwealth has looked in the

mirror and thought, "Shall we be truthless or shall we have teeth?

Let's be toothless?." I think that's unfair. There were two key

recommendations, one is to have a charter to set out that we believe

in democracy and rights and freedom. That is the sort of organisation

with values that we are. That has been accepted. And the issue about

the commissioner for human rights has not been rejected it's just

looking at exactly how the role will be filled and the relation to

the secretariat of the Commonwealth. So it hasn't been put off entirely.

But that's disappointment. We heard that Sri Lanka and India were

against it and that's why it hasn't happened. I think the charter gives

an indication that the Commonwealth is serious. Britain always wants

the Commonwealth to be the best to do the most and have the clearest

set of values, but I think this is a step forward. You have to

remember with the Commonwealth, it's association of 54 states, a

third of the world's population, countries from six different

continents. It is a voluntary body that has to progress by consensus.

But it is a good organisation and the values have just got clearer

and stronger and I think that's important. There are 36 members of

the Commonwealth, a large number, who discriminate savage yaingly in

some cases, against homosexuals. I think in Uganda you can get ten

years for homosexual. This is something that people looked to

this summit to take a hard line on and it hasn't. Different

Commonwealth countries are in a different position on this, and we

want them to move. We're not just talking about, we're also saying

that British aid should have more strings attached, in that do you

persecute people for their believes or their sexuality, and we don't

think that's acceptable. Only Canada and Australia raised the

issue and Britain didn't. No, we've been raising the issue here

continuously. And I have further sessions to have and I'll be

raising it again too. And also about our aid policies. Which

countries have you raised it with, can I ask? I've been raising it

with a number of African countries. Uganda and Rwanda? I can't give you

the names, but even more than raising it, saying very clearly

that remember Britain is now one of the premier aid giveers in the

world and we want to see countries that receive our aid are adhering

to proper human rights and that in cluds behaviour towards people.

you're saying if you don't change your laws on homosexuality we will

reduce our aid? Yes, we're saying there are particularly bad examples

where we have taken action. What examples can you give? Well,

they're just in a different place to us. If you go back in our own

history there are times when we, until recently, discriminated in

lots of ways. We need to help these countries on their journeys and

that's exactly what we'll do. next meeting like this is supposed

to be taking place in Sri Lanka. If there has not been significant

improvement in their records oven human rights, will you be going?

The Canadians will be boycotting it? We want to see Sri Lanka do

more in terms of human rights and reconciliation after the defeat of

the Tamil Tigers. I've had that conversation myself with the

President of that country, who is here. And they should be aware of

the fact that they're holding this Commonwealth Summit in 20134, and

it's up to them to show this progress so they can welcome the

maximum number of countries when they do. If they don't, will you

go? I I'm not answering that question at the moment. But the

Tamil Tigers have been defeated, and the current President is in

government and I've said to him you have a chance to demonstrate change

tot rest of the world and I think that's important that that pressure

is applied. And this has been a chance. This is a chance for you to

speak to a lot of leaders that you don't often meet last l - meet and

you've been speaking to some about the difficulty of piracy in

Somalia? That's right. These meetings bring together a lot of

disparate people, and I've been speaking to them. And I've been

speaking with the Kenyans. What we're going to do and this is

important, we're going to say to British flag ships that they can be

licensed if they want to to have armed guards on those ships. The

evidence is that armed ships don't get attacked or taken hostage for

ransom. But we're going to have to licence that in a proper way. And

the Home Office has agreed to do that. But I think this is a bick

step up for our campaign against this prirsy. But it is a dramatic

step because it means in effect you'll be licensing civilian

Britons, non-military Britons to shoot to kill. It is, but the

extent of the hijacking and ransom of ships around the Horn of Africa

is a complete stain on our world. The fact that prirts are managing

hold to ransom our trading system is an insult. So the whole of the

rest of the world needs to come together with vigour to handle that.

And we're taking this step to put armed guards on our ships so they

don't get attacked. I want to make sure more of these pirates face

justice and that's why we're working with other countries. And I

want to have far greater look at the justice in Somalia and how we

can deal with the causes of the hijacking, the ransoms and the

piracy flowing out of that country. And do you see a way of getting

these people tried and in Prince, there is no way of trying them?

of the countries trying them and imprisoning them right now are not

wealthy countries, but they are represented here, the Seychelles

and Mauritius. But there are other options we can take to make sure

these people face justice, but one of the things we can do is to have

armed guards on the ships to make sure they don't get attacked and I

think it will be effective. Back home, one of the biggest rising

bubbles of anger that is starting to come through are among older

people and pensioners who feel they are being dealt with very savagely

by the inflation that is being pumped through the economy and

nobody is paying attention to that? I feel very sorry for households on

tight budgets and they're seeing rising prices. The Bank of England

which was supposed to be keeping inflation at 2% are cheerfully and

happily seeing it at 6%. They're not happy about it and every time

it rises they have to write a letter to explain why. The Bank of

England believe what we're seeing is a temporary rise in the price

level that has come through particularly from lower sterling,

the price of imports, from high food prices in the rest of the

world. They believe that is a temporary phenomenon. That is their

judgment. But you're not looking over your shoulder and people are

saying, tactly taxon is more concerned with growth and

employment of young people.. But it is the bank's job to deal with

inflation. We've announced a cut in petrol duty, and we've made

announcements on council tax. I'm acutely aware of people facing

tough budgets and they want a Government on their side and that's

exactly what this Government will be. After the late night in

Brussels and the new agreement on the EuroZone, we see a two- speed

Europe and a -upeo zone of the EuroZone and the other countries,

including Britain, outside of that. Is this not the perfect time to

really re-think our relationship with that inner core and not be to

frightened of having a referendum and not to be frightened of putting

hard questions in front of the British people? We have to take

this in stages and at every stage the key thing to me is what is the

national interest? And the reason I insisted on having a proper whip is

I don't think this is the right time to have an in, out referendum

on report. We need to be setting the rules. Let me stop you, even if

the economy changes as a result of what has been changed. Let's use

this moment, yes, as the EuroZone countries go ahead, as they must,

to try to co-ordinate and combine more, I think it's right that those

countries not in the euro ask for some arrangements and guarantees

that the single market is going to be properly protected. There is a

concern that the 17 are going off to do more together that could

impact on the single market and I want to stop that. Which means you

have to rely on the old commission because they're the only people who

can stop that happening? I commission has a useful purpose in

the European Union, and we should always work with the commission to

try to make Europe help drive growth. You said yesterday that the

Whitehall officials were working really hard on how we were going to

repatriate powers and which powers we were going to repatriate.

Really? What is happening here is there is a coalition agreement to

look at the balance of powers between Britain and Brussels. And

Whitehall are carrying out that exercise. But frankly we are in a

coalition and the lib democrats are in favour of some way of

rebalancing and the Conservatives are greatly in favour of that, but

the Labour Party isn't in favour of any rebalancing. You do think that,

but it sounds to me as if you also think there's no way you're going

to be able to do anything about that during this Parliament.

don't accept that, because I've made the point already that as the

EuroZone deepens, we have to accept it and that mean change. But the

Germans are also looking for treaty change for the EuroZone. If they do

that, there may be opportunities for Britain to look at our position

in that. But people should understand that I think as the

EuroZone develops there will be greater time for greater

rebalancing and for Britain to reach a greater and more safari

position in our relationship with Europe. I would like to see further

re-balancing, but we have to act as a coalition. So it doesn't seem as

if we're likely to get something back from Brussels during the

lifetime of this particular Government? I don't accept that. We

already got the bailout powers back. Because that put British tax money

at risk. And I got the treaty amended so we're not in that scheme

from 2013. So I got the bailout money back, if you like. What we

don't know is how the treaty change will be within the EuroZone, so we

don't know what our opportunities will be. But just as I got the

bailout power back, because that was good for Britain, I'm looking

at ways to further our interests in Britain Thank you very much. Back

to London. Commonwealth nation leaders

insisted Sunday that they had made sweeping progress at their summit

despite failing to agree on a key human rights paper. The Prime

Minister, Julia Gillard who had pushed for a Human Rights Watch dog

through the meeting still said they had made progress because of a

strengthening of the role the Commonwealth can play in human

rights abuses. During this programme, the Prime

Minister said that countries receiving British human aid would

have be look at their treatment of human rights.

Back to Andrew in Perth am Amanda Platell and cam lash Sharma

have joined me again. Do you think it was fair, the point that David

Cameron was making that a country like Britain should link aid

directly to a country's position on human rights? But the Commonwealth

is not that kind of organisation. People reach out for a helping hand

and if they want help in strengthening their human rights

institution, internally and nationally and helping them with

the human rights Council we'll be ready to do anything like that.

Amanda, a native of Perth and Perth has changed a great deal, I suspect,

since you grew up here, one thing everyone notices are the an ringal

greetings that pre creed - certainly everywhere the Queen

turned up, there was an Aboriginal greeting. And a fantastic

exhibition of their art. That's true. And the paintings in that

exhibition are spectacular. They're unlike any I've ever seen. And I

didn't appreciate they were telling a story about the journey across

Australia? That's right. And everywhere the Queen went there

would be a person from the Norma tribe there, so there would be

people all around the Queen who own multi-million dollar houses, but

everywhere she went there was a little lady coming to her and

saying, "I'm pleased to invite you to my land." When I grew up, the

tribe's name was a really rude word, but now, thank goodness, it is a

word of deep respect. Good, right. Well on that note of deep respect,

I thank you all for joining us, and Sophie for holding the fort in