20/11/2011 The Andrew Marr Show

9 on BBC Two. Good morning. A lot of people must have watched the

capture yesterday in the desert of Saif Al-Islam, Gaddafi's favourite

son, with mixed feelings. Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson, the

financier Nat Rosthchild, British academics, he was friendly with

them all. He'd promised to fight the last bullet, but he's now going

to stand trial in Libya. That's a man with some stories to tell.

Joining me today to review the Sunday newspapers, the BBC's World

Editor John Simpson, who's met Saif Gaddafi, as well as his late father,

the actress and writer Maureen Lipman and following the Berlin

summit, Tim Montgomerie, Editor of the influential Conservative home

website. Crunch time is coming - on Wednesday week, teachers, civil

servants, police support staff and hundreds of thousands of others

will strike at the government plans to limit their pensions. More than

two million workers are set to walk out on November 30th, a move which

will disrupt everywhere from schools to courts, driving test

centres, hospitals. So, any chance of a deal? This morning we'll hear

from the Head of The latest big union to join the strike action,

Chris Keates, and from the Cabinet Minister at the heart of the talks,

Francis Maude. Is there any more the Government is prepared to

concede? And if there is no more carrot, when will we see some

stick? Also today, Ken Livingstone, former London Mayor, socialist

outsider, loved and loathed in equal measure, hoping to get his

old job back. We are going to hear from Ken on the anti-capitalist

protests going on right now. Plus one of Britain's finest

Shakespearian actors whose film about Marilyn Monroe and Laurence

Olivier is broadcast tonight. Kenneth Brannagh is filming in

Wallender. For those who remember the Strawbs and Fairport Convention,

something surprising from a modern folk singer, Theo Gilmour who'll

reveal all later. First the news with Louise:

Good morning. Libya's promised to give a fair trial to the son of

Colonel Gaddafi, who was captured yesterday. Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi is

being held in the northern town of zin tan after being captured in the

southern desert. He's wanted by the International Criminal Court to

face charges of crimes against humanity.

Photographs on the plane carrying him from the southern desert to

Zintan, Saif, the heavy beard and Bedouin dressed familiar

fashionable glasses. When the plane landed, he appeared agitated. A

crowd surrounded the safe craft, climbing on the top of it, banging

on the fuselage. The Libyan Prime Minister said Saif would be kept

for the time being in Zintan, then tried in Libya.

He will get his day in court and it will be a just and proper justice

that will be applied. When Saif was captured, his fingers were wrapped

in dressings, he said he was injured in a NATO airstrike a month

ago. The men who found him say he gave up without a fight, despite

his previous bravado. We have plan A, plan B, plan C.

Plan A is to live and die in Libya. Plan B is to live and die in Libya.

Plan C is to live and die in Libya. Saif Al-Islam may yet get his wish.

A Libyan court could impose the death penalty.

A row has broken out between nursing leaders and the Government

over the number of jobs being cut in the NHS. The Royal College of

Nursing says almost 50,000 jobs will go in England's Health Service

by 2014. The Government has accused the RCN of scare morpbging and says

efficiency saverings can be made at the same time as improving patient

care -- scaremongering. The NHS in England is under huge pressure

financially. Managers have been told to find �20 billion worth of

efficiency savings in the next four years. The money is meant to go

back into frontline services. The RCN believes patient care is being

effected by the push for economies. It's been tracking job cuts since

April 2010. Since then, it's heard of nearly 50,000 posts that are

under threat or have closed already out of a total of 1.4 million,

that's 30,000 more than a year ago. It believes many are clinical staff

directly involved in patient care. Some of the hospitals involved are

disputed the figures, but the RCN said there was clear evidence of

more jobs coming under threat, putting patients at risk.

The Government accused the union of scaremongering and said the NHS

should be able to make efficiently si savings at the same time as

improving patient care The Syrian President has said there

will be no let up in his crackdown on the anti-government protests

which have killed an estimated 3,500 people. A key opposition

group has this morning reported that a major building belonging to

the ruling Ba'ath Party in Damascus has been hit by several rocket-

propelled grenades. Bashar Al-Assad's regime has been

criticised by the United Nations and the Arab League. But, in an

interview with the Sunday Times, he promised Syria would not bow down

to any outside influences. At least two people have been

killed in thrashes between police and democracy campaigners in the

Egyptian capital Cairo. Hundreds of people are reported to have been

injured around Tahrir skwaifrplt the protesters want Egypt's ruling

council to return power to a civilian Government -- Tahrir

Square. A 32-year-old man has been arrested on the suspicion of

attempted murder after four policemen were injured in North

London yesterday. Three of the officers received stab injuries,

the fourth has a broken hand and a broken thumb.

The Home Secretary has praised the officers for their bravery.

That's all from me for the moment, I'll be back with the headlines

just before ten. The National Association of School

teachers has just voted to join the strike over pension reform. Unless

things change, thousands of teachers will walk out on Wednesday

week. Chris Keates join us us from Birmingham. Good morning. Good

morning. Your members are going to disrupt children's education all

around the country. Even though the package that the Government has

offered you means that nobody who is within ten years of retiring

will find their pension affected. Why is this strike justified?

this is the first time in over a decade that the NASUWT has balloted

its members for industrial action and actually our members would

prefer not to strike. We've engaged constructively with the Government

in the negotiations. I've been in with the TUC-led negotiations. What

we faced is actually month after month of provarcation and no

progress being made in terms of providing us with information in

data we need, providing us with evidence that there is a problem

with the teachers' pension scheme, and our members have therefore been

faced with no alternative but to actually move to a ballot for

industrial action. If I can just interrupt there.

There have been a series of concessions by the Government since

this process started. What do you now need to hear from Francis Maude

or other ministers which would stop members striking? First of all, at

the 11th hour, the Government's put on the table some amendments to

their proposals which were welcome and we welcomed them at the time.

But actually, they need to be examined very carefully to make

sure that that data stacks up. At the moment, we are involved in

frantic activity to try to see what those proposals will actually mean.

So, to be clear, there is a possibility that you will not go on

strike at the end of the month if the new proposals mean what you

hope they do?: well, I believe everybody engaged in this process

has got a responsibility to try to avoid strike action if that's

possible. But the fact of the matter is that we've been put under

tremendous pressure, we have a ridiculous time scale in which to

try to resolve these issues, we have to do very, very detailed work,

pensions are complex issues and they're complex issues in terms of

finding out with what the latest offer from the Government actually

stacks up and delivers the kind of things that the Government is

saying that it will. All right. Thank you very much.

Now to the Sunday newspapers as ever. Lots and lots of Saif Al-

Islam all over the front of The Sunday Times. University to axe

5,000 degree courses there too as the cuts bite. President Assad we

heard there on the news will die heard there on the news will die

for his country if he needs to. Saif again. What secrets will he

reveal, Gaddafi's play boy son cowers when he's caught.

Same thing on The Independent on Sunday. Captured. Scotland on

Sunday says the English now are becoming less British. Interesting

Scottish perspective on the union there. The Observer has a story

saying the Church of England bishops are uniting to condemn the

coalition cuts on the poorest. Also, The Sunday Telegraph, windfarms are

useless says the Duke of Edinburgh. Yoing me, Maureen Lipman, Tim

Montgomerie and John Simpson, thank you all very much indeed -- joining

me. Let us start with Saif Al-Islam who you have met? I have. I was

rather taken but all the stuff we used to get from Peter Mandelson

and by extension from Tony Blair that he was a serious statesman and

that he was a serious statesman and so forth. But, as indeed my friend

writes in The Sunday Times today, I mean, he was actually a bit of a

nutcase. Who could help having a father like that being brought up

like that, of course, but he wasn't a play boy. Colvin points that out.

He managed to avoid that. I think he thought he was a serious

character and the only reasons he wasn't were because of his

background. Is there something, tragic is not the word to use about

this family, but nonetheless morally interesting about someone

who wanted to be a reformer and wanted all his friends in the West,

but in the end blood ties, you know, he's still a Gaddafi, in the end,

he still has to stand with his father?

It's a collectors' item. I can't see anything really serious or

tragic about the whole thing. The whole Gaddafi atmosphere was so

loony, so crazy. The only question is, and this is the main story in

the Sunday Times, Labour donors secret links to Gaddafi's son, then

inside, Gaddafi's son may spill British secrets. Only question is,

why on earth were people foolish enough to think that Gaddafi and

his son were going to be there for ever, because nowadays, I've been

in the last few years, been to let's see, how many, three I think

leading trials, Saddam Hussein, Mubarak's trial recently, I hope to

be at Saif's trial. These things do not go to the grave with leaders

any longer. They get stopped at some stage. Either they stop or get

overthrown. A great mistake to get mixed up financially with them or

politically. Al-Assad watching from Syria of course? Yes. There's an

excellent article by Patrick Coburn this The Independent on Sunday and

the headline really is the key to it: Compared to Syria, the fall of

Libya wiz a piece of cake. Not only I would say a piece of cake, but

also with nothing like the kind of significance that Syria has. What

happens with Syria, Patrick Cockburn stresses the point will

happen in one way or another to the entire Middle East. Libya, it was a

side show, it was that much really in the history books.

Yes. Talking of dictators toppling or wobbling, you have been very

involved of course in the cause of Burma, Maureen, which is in today's

papers again? It's beginning to sort of open up much more slowly

and of course, the old men are still there? They are, and they

will topple. The only paper that ice picked up this amazing Burmese

winter is The Observer and it's a tiny column and that's always the

case with Burma. Drives me crazy. You can't get any news. Here is

this extraordinary woman, Nobel Peace Prize winner this year just

released from a jail last November, house arrest last November and

suddenly the country is opening up, she's saying come to Burma and

she's doing the lectures and they are allowing her out of the house

and are allowing her possibly to stand for Parliament. And that is

an incredible story. A dramatic moment? Yes, that seems to always

take second place to the Middle East.

Yes. Let's turn to domestic politics, Tim. There's a huge

amount of interesting stuff in today's papers. You are starting

with the Observer, are you? We have We have the Church of England in

their usual default position I think when there is criticism of

the Tory Prime Minister. The issue they've chosen this time is the

proposal from the Government to introduce a benefits cap which will

mean that no family can receive more benefits than the average

family which is �26,000. Now, this is a hugely popular policy with

most voters. I think most voters say, you don't fight poverty by

benefits, you fight poverty with work, with education and with

family. You have the church wondering why it's irrelevant to so

much of society and picking a fight with the vast majority of voters,

not just the Government, and not supporting the action that will

tackle poverty which is education and work.

It's interesting about who will and won't take jobs in this country in

the papers as well. Another story oufr. They missed a fantastic

opportunity, they had a population out there to preach to outside St

Somebody else speaking out is the Duke of Edinburgh this morning.

wasn't speaking out, he was talking privately to someone. I get really

sick of newspapers. The Sunday Telegraph has been good at that

kind of stuff. Do you remember when the Queen Mother was talking about

what she thought about Europe? It got into the Sunday Telegraph, I

think. He it's nothing to do with why they were there. It was the

17th anniversary of the Council of Christian Jews, and some man who

owns wind farms went up to the Duke of Edinburgh and said "so what do

you think of these wind farms?". And the Duke of Edinburgh told him!

This is a question of whether the Duke of Edinburgh likes being

quoted on the front of newspapers or not, but he is speaking for a

large number of people. But of course he stands to gain from wind

farms, but the question is do they work? All so how much they cost

people. There is a story about the man who fitted solar panels to

David Cameron's own house. It just seems that the whole climate change

debate has moved on so much since we went into recession. The average

family pays �90 a year because of the cost of renewable energies.

Whereas we were happy, when we could afford to, to worry about

green issues, but now we are struggling to make ends meet at the

cost of renewable energy. Let's turn to a man who was never

knowingly over heard, I am talking about Boris Johnson. When he is on

the front page of the newspapers, that is because he wants to be, and

he has done it again. He will love the fact the mayor of London is on

the front page of the Sunday Telegraph. The editor has got an

interview with the mayor. William Hague once described the whole

issue of Europe as unexploded bomb at the heart of the Conservative

Party, and the best thing to do was to stop talking about the issue of

Europe. If the Conservative Party went back to this unexploded bomb,

it would cause a massive problem. We have Boris saying two of the key

policies David Cameron house on Europe, which is the Germans should

be using their reserves, and we need a fiscal union, he is saying

both of those are wrong. This so- called Big bazooka is a disaster.

He never misses an opportunity. There is a lot of difference

between the mayor and the Prime Minister, but most of the

Conservative press and probably most voters at large are probably

on Boris Johnson's side on this issue. As usual, we have got Ken in

the corner frothing. It is weird the Labour Party has become the

European party. You get all the newspapers, the right-wing

newspapers, writing amazing stuff about Europe. Devastatingly and

often deeply inaccurate stuff which people believe, but nobody, you

never hear the other side. The two is the right-wing papers that have

been vindicated over the years. They are the ones that said the

euro would not work. That is a judgment I am not making, but it's

interesting that if you so -- support Europe, you have lost the

inability to speak about it. have on the front page of the News

Review Margaret, she is back. Lady Is Back, the lady is not for

watching. We have it on the front of the News Review, which is more

of a review of Meryl Streep's performance, which will be

astonishing. In fact, almost anyone can play Margaret Thatcher, with

respect to Meryl Streep. It was the woman week all loved to hate.

you do the voice? It is a bitter early. Keep you in your place, we

are reviewing the papers! Very good. The film begins with her dementia,

shuffling along to the corner shop. Not to judge the film, I think it

will make even me sorry for Margaret Thatcher. Some reviews

have said, from a Conservative point of view, it is a good film,

and from the left people are saying this is terrible. It is funny

because there is another film about the Burmese leader which has that

controversy about it. Is their way out for David Cameron on this? He

has Germany going for a deeper, stronger union, and he is back with

Conservative MPs saying this is our opportunity to have a referendum.

It is a devil in a deep blue sea choice for him. When he had the

difficult vote in the House of Commons recently, when 81 of his

own MPs rebelled, he made dramatic promises during the debate to try

to stem the rebel. In that when the opportunity came, he would seek

fundamental reform. Now that opportunity is coming, Angela

Merkel and Nick Clegg don't want it. He has got to choose between his

party and his coalition partners, and that is a very awkward choice

for him. I don't know how he will resolve it. Once he gives the news

to the party, he will have another revolt on his hands. I think he

wants to kick it into the long grass, but the long grass doesn't

look very long any more. Another story, John. I find this a bit

disturbing. It is a story about an Asian journalist, who is being

abused on Twitter. It is not a major story, but it is just a

rather depressing one. It is an account of how she told the police

about it, the Metropolitan Police, and they were clearly not the

slightest bit interested. They only seem to be interested in

footballers and people with well- known names and backgrounds. I just

find that so depressing. There is an awful lot about how the

Metropolitan Police has been run, perhaps won't be in future, which

seems to cause problems in our country, not least in policing the

rioting. But nevertheless, this kind of thing, PC plod on the other

end says if you continue to talk like this I shall put the phone

down. That seems to be the standard response. It is quite frightening.

If it happened to you or maybe even to me, the police might do

something about it, but if it happens to someone else, not

necessarily. A lot of things we have not had time to talk about,

but for now thank you. Thick fog as I drove in the earlier

on, so let's find out what the rest of the day holds across the country.

A have got the most extensive mist A have got the most extensive mist

and fog of the autumn so far, mainly affecting England and Wales.

It will take some time to clear away. The thickest fog is in

eastern England. The temperatures are really cold, but further west

we have got more cloud and it is milder, 10 degrees in Glasgow. Some

rain coming into Scotland. England and Wales, misty and foggy to begin

with. It could stay grey and gloomy all day across East Wales, the

Midlands, part of northern England. The mist and fog thickens through

the Midlands and eastern England through tonight, and that is where

it will be cold again. Further west, the cloud thickens, and we will see

patchy rain arriving. Further east, it is likely to be dry, the mist

and fog lifting through the morning. It will stay cloudy and grey, and

though some pictures will struggle in the eastern areas. Further west,

12-14 degrees, above-average for Ken Livingstone was once -- once

dubbed the most odious man in Britain by the Sun, so it must have

been a badge of honour for him. Few public figures have been so reviled

by the press but still hit a popular chord. Even the victor in

the last London mayoral election, Boris Johnson, praised his

achievements. Old adversaries will be up against each other in next

year's race for the City Hall, but in the meantime Ken Livingstone has

been hard at work on his memoirs. One thing that will surprise people

is that you came from a conservative background, family

wise. About a third of working- class families are Tories, we have

always known that. I was the first person in my family ever to vote

Labour. My grandmother, who was very proud at the time, my mother

said I was not allowed to tell her, it might finish her off. My parents

wouldn't even Bali a television when there was only the BBC and it

was state television, they waited until ITV came along. So was your

conversion to the left a reaction against your family? Not really. I

was in my late teens as the government of Harold Macmillan was

disintegrating, the sex scandals, the recession. Everybody was

falling in love with Harold Wilson, the Tony Blair of his day.

Initially, I just moved from the Tory background to be in a

traditional Labour one. I only moved to the left once I saw Wilson

quite miserably failed to deliver. Interesting you didn't join any of

the revolutionary groups that were so popular, the Communist groups

and so on, you went into the Labour Party - why was that? I am a

pragmatic person. I look at what works, I am interested in changes

you can make. I am not really interested in what an ideal world

would be like, I am more interested in how we can cut fares next year.

That makes the change to people's lives. I didn't think the Utopia

would happen. And you weren't impressed by the student protests

of the time? They were against the war in Vietnam and I felt angry

against that, but I was not a student, I dropped out of school. I

always thought I would spend a lifetime working at London's rule

or something like that. What is your perspective on the anti-

capitalist protest going on at the moment? They don't seem to have an

agenda. No, of course lefties in the past read the works of Marx,

this is much more spasm anger. I think they are right to be angry.

We saw the FT-SE 100 companies, the top 100, who had a 49% increase on

average for the bosses. There is a deep on Furnace and it has got

worse over the last 30 years. Inequality has doubled in Britain.

I grew up in a world where we assumed we would continue to get

more equal. But there isn't a programme, an agenda. Nobody seems

to have an answer. If you listen to Ed Balls and Ed Miliband, there was

a clear answer developing about the big public works programmes, and

rumours in the press over the last few days that even David Cameron

may have been persuaded by the Liberals to start building

affordable housing again. The government is now recognising the

strategy they started out with, you can cut your way back to growth, it

hasn't worked. It will never be characterised as Edward Heath's big

U-turn but they can't go on like this. Are you disappointed by the

way the Miliband brothers have turned out? They were always

portrayed as almost one on each knee, and now look at them, one is

New Labour and one is highly pragmatic. I sat with their parents

talking about an English Revolution, they decided we were being too

optimistic. I worked very closely with Ed Miliband and we share the

same agenda. When he spoke about the difference between predatory

and productive capitalism, we need to invest more in manufacturing.

When I left school, every boy in my school left school and got a job.

Germany has kept that, they still have good jobs for working-class

people. We have seen those jobs wiped out, and a lot of what David

Cameron talks about a broken society, he doesn't understand it

is the real fact that unless you have a university degree, you are

left behind. During the paper review, we have heard Maureen

Lipman doing a good Margaret Thatcher impersonation, talking

about the new Meryl Streep film. But what did you make of her? You

seem to get on better with ideological people on the right

I think Thatcher was a remarkable person. She pushed the old toffs

aside and changed the face of Britain, very much for the worse I

think, much like Reagan in America. Therefore I respect the fact she

believed something, was prepared to risk her career to achieve it, but

tragically, it turned out to be a disaster.

What about your relationships with the Labour leaders, because you

didn't get on well with Tony Blair, but that was as nothing to the not

getting on wellness of your relationship with Gordon Brown?!

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 49 seconds

Isn't the truth that he watched how you behaved. You were the maverick,

very fun yirbgs not getting on terribly well with the national

leadership at the time. People quite enjoyed you as a character

and she just did that better, his jokes were better? I don't deny for

one minute, I would never Miss Boris Johnson on Have I Got News

For You, I've sometimes almost fallen off the chair laughing, he

tells better jokes than me. The polling is interesting, he beats me

on some things and I beat him on some things. Do you want somebody

who maybes you laugh or someone who restores the cuts in policing.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 49 seconds

Marilyn Monroe, the greatest movie star in the world, to work with Sir

Laurence Olivier, the world's greatest actor. It should have gone

splendidly. It was her production company, Olivier was thrilled to

work with someone who would associate him with the new and

exciting, and they went like that. She would go missing for days at a

time, which completely threw him, and it turned into a nightmare for

him. This young man with the ringside seat has a sort of

relationship with her. Indeed. One of the things that had a whiff of

for authenticity was that they go for who basically fetched the tea,

how could they possibly be witness to these confessional moments, it

is partly because they are 23, and to people preoccupied with these

intense jobs, they simply ignore them and don't count them as human

beings. They suddenly find themselves saying things in front

of them that might be indiscreet. Michelle Williams is a stunning

Marilyn. I am glad you think so, Let's just stop and have a look at

her. # We are having a heatwave # A tropical heatwave... #

You can see the attraction there! Yes.

You are playing a kind of game with the audience here because you are

saying, you were somebody, often associated with Olivier, I think

you wrote to him at one point? did when I was 19, asked for his

advice about playing a part that I was 45 years too young for at that

part but that he played for in a film and his advice was "have a

bash and hope for the best". you are playing him when he's

wanting this new career? Yes. have got a very successful

directing career yourself and he wants a bit of the association of

Marilyn and you have the association, there's a sort of game

going on in a way, isn't there? What I thought when I read it and

felt as though this miniature picture of Olivier, which is

basically about Marilyn and this extraordinary moment she has with

this young man, but it's the backbone which is the job and the

association with Olivier. The picture of his midlife crisis is

very well drawn in lots of ways. But he was unquestionably fun to

think, gosh, so I'm an actor playing an actor who's playing an

ock for who's a direct director in a film that he's directing and he's

directed films I'm in. So there are onion layers unpeeling that I think

helps give the film a certain kind of difference.

He was a very frustrated figure at that point. You don't look terribly

like him, but you have the astonishing voice. It's astonishing

how different English voices were in the '50s? We were just coming

out of the world of people arriving saying "cigarette thanks", like

that lovely line in Brief Encounter when the woman says are you cold

and he says no, are you happy, no very and that world of clipped

voices is Olivier and Vivienne Lee who presided over minor Royalty at

the British acting family. His voice I listened to every morning

as they put on a prosthetic chin which gave me the beautiful square

chin. He does a dramatic reading of the Bible, a dramatic vocal

performance. That's how you got into it? Listening to him every day,

yes. All the films you have directed, Thaw was a vast success

which has given you presumably a lot more heft in that world of what

you want to do next? Yes, is the answer, and I'm very grateful for

that. It was two-and-a-half years of working on something on a scale

that I'd never been used to with visual effects and technology at my

finger tips with lots of extremely skilful people helping me to know

how to use them. But to be able to make a picture that potentially

opens and a lot of people see it, it's a thrill where you often make

films when that's not the case. Wallender - last night we had the

second episode of The Killing starting on British television.

There's something in the water that people really go for depressed

Scandinavians, aren't they? Well, I think that somehow our impression

of what Scandinavia may create in people, which in our case in

southern Sweden involves the flatlands that allow vast areas of

landscape to disappear behind us and encourage you to think big

thoughts. It allows for people to be quite preoccupied with bigger

questions, of their own lives, and of life in general, the Swedes in

my experience tend to do this. We seem vo cariously to enjoy that. If

we, as a national characteristic tend to be rather contained and

concerned about being embarrassed by it, the Swedes are not

embarrassed by emotionalism, certainly not by talking largely

philosophically and, through the medium of a detective story, there

seems to be some way in which that's being expressed that we are

drawn to. Let's see a clip of Wallender for those who don't now.

The one with Albert Finney on the track? No, that's definitely Murder

on the Express. Just concentrate, for God's sake. People are dying,

doesn't anybody get that. People are dead! You are making another

series at the moment of that? Indeed. Right at the end of the

filming about Marilyn, Olivier is off to a strange little theatre,

The Royal Court. That's right. Which Miller and Marilyn take him

to. He's then going to play The Entertainer? Yes. A very important

moment in British theatre history. Absolutely. The obvious question is

whether you've got a theatre production, whether you're going to

do the threeter? Well, I just appeared at the New Lyric Theatre

in Belfast, my home town, with Rob Brydon, we had a great time and we

hope to bring that into town in the next 12 months, so that's the next

adventure. You are shooting off to film, so thank you very much indeed

for coming in and joining us. Thank you. Thank you. So to the great

dilemma over pensions. And the huge strike which seems to be coming at

the end of the month is the biggest one-day protest for many years. The

minister at the heart of the talks is Francis Maude, whose revised

offer to the unions has been rejected and is under pressure to

some colleagues to look at the laws governing strikes again. Welcome.

Good morning. Can I start by asking whether this is an on the table

offer, take it or leave it, and if the strike goes ahead, whether the

offer to the unions will be withdrawn.? It's certainly not take

it or leave it because there's a lot of detail to be sorted out. We

have discussions going on in four different schemes, and there's a

lot to be sorted out. We have said that the basics of this deal, which

is a very generous offer actually, at the end of all this, the pension

schemes for public sector workers have access to will be better than

anything most people in the private sector can dream of. These are

guaranteed pension levels which are inflation proved, index linked and

people will know what they are going to get. For most people in

the public sector, particularly people on lower and middle incomes,

they are going to be able to retire on a pension which is at least as

good as they expect at the moment, in many cases better. Doesn't sound

to me like you think there's much room for further moves on the

Government's part? No, we said this is as good as it gets, but there's

still a lot to discuss. We want to make sure that the way this is

configured meets the concerns. We want particularly to protect lower

paid people, we don't want people to opt out of the schemes, we want

lower paid people to have better pensions, not worse. We want them

to be fair sore they're based on average earnings during your career,

not on final salary which very much favours senior people who do well

out of this at the expense frankly of lower paid people. So there's a

great deal still to be sorted out and we want urgently to get on with

it. If this goes ahead, it's only one day at the moment, but it will

be grim and dramatic? We don't know what the extent of it will be.

There have been a lot of ballots, they've all come out with yes votes

and that wasn't particularly surprising, but I think it's really

significant that particularly the big e unions, the tournouts has

been extraordinarily low -- turnout. In the case of UNISON, it was only

just over a quarter of the members balloted actually voted. So when

the union leaders sit with us and say this is the most important

thing in a general raceration for their members and I don't at all

underestimate how much people care about this and they are right to do

so, actually for people and the unions to say this is unbelievably

passionate matters for most members is incorrect. The member force the

most part haven't voted. Given that, are you going to look again at the

legislation and put in some kind of minimum level of turnout or total

turnout before a strike is called, people have said 40% of the people

in a union have to vote for a strike or maybe it should be 50 or

We keep these things under review. So you are not looking at bringing

in a new threshold? We keep it under review, but a powerful case

for change has been made. I have made the point to the union leaders

that if they do call-out their members on strike, at a time of

fragility for our economy, where are widespread disruptive strike

would cause widespread damage, potentially, to our economy, with a

lot of people losing their jobs. People who don't have access to

pensions anywhere near as good as public sector workers will still

have at the end of this, the case for new laws will become pressing.

He sounds like you have got to stick, but at the moment it is

locked up in the cupboard under the stairs. We are not jumping the gun,

we want this to work. My concern with the union leaders is that they

have jumped the gun. It is inappropriate and irresponsible to

have balloted their members on strike action when the discussions

are still going on, as Chris Keates was saying earlier. It is quite

wrong to call-out on strike people who have the ability to inflict

damage on the economy and on other people's lives and jobs when we

still have the real prospect of reaching agreement. The offer we

have put on the table is conditional on the unions agreeing

overall the outcome, the new scheme. He if they go ahead with the strike,

does the offer come off the table? At the Louvre, it is in our power

to do that. It is not an unconditional offer and we have the

ability to withdraw it and impose something that will still meet our

concerns of protecting lower-paid people, of being fairer, of giving

public sector staff good pension schemes, but actually we do want

there to be real engagement now. The unions should not have jumped

the gun, we now need to try to get the storm. So you may impose a deal.

The end of the year is pretty much the deadline? We need to get the

basics sorted out by then, that is crucial. It does sound as if we are

going to go through a tough period in industrial relations, this is

only the beginning. One can understand why people are so

worried, they have had pay freezes, inflation is high. We have been

through a very tough period, we are now going through a public sector

recession. If we are going to go through a winter and spring of

discontent and large-scale public sector industrial action, is this

Government's tough enough to see that off? I don't sense any

appetite among most of the union leaders to go in for protracted,

prolonged industrial action. There is a sense in which they need to do

something on November 30th. There is a quirk in the law that says

that once you have got a ballot mandate, you have to use it within

28 days. But there are ways of doing that which tick the box that

we have done something, we have kept the ballot mandate open, but

which doesn't inflict damage on the economy. Some of these schemes can

we have got so close to agreement, that there is a real prospect of

doing this by the end of the year without damaging the economy and

people's lives. People who have no prospect of enjoying pensions that

public sector staff will continue to enjoy. You are coming forward

with the scheme for new businesses who often feel frozen out of the

government procurement. We have looked carefully at how we do

procurement. The public sector has bends age huge amount of money in

buying in goods and services from outside, something like �230

billion the year, and we don't do it very well, frankly. We follow

the European law extremely literally, we have very big

contracts, and we get the worst of both worlds at the moment. We

exclude a lot of innovative suppliers who are UK-based, so

neither do we get good value for the taxpayer, neither do we spend

the money particularly well, neither do we support UK businesses.

France and Germany, who are not protectionist in this respect, are

much better at doing this so we are drawing from their experience.

of the key promises the Conservatives made at the time of

the election and the coalition agreement was that the NHS would be

protected. The Royal College of Nursing is now saying that tens of

thousands of jobs, more jobs, will have to go and that these will

involve frontline jobs. They will involve nurses. We hope that won't

be the case. We have guaranteed the NHS budget will grow in real terms.

Labour didn't agree that, they would have cut NHS spending, and so

we are committed to protecting the Budget, but there are demands on

the NHS which means efficiency savings have to be made and they

need to be made not at the front line so far as possible. When you

say you hope that is not so, are you saying we won't see 50,000

frontline jobs go or not? That seems fanciful to me. We have

already taken out a number of managerial jobs which double the

amount of jobs under Labour. We have cut those numbers and the

numbers of doctors is increasing. We want to take money out of the

back end, as it were, and put it into the front line because the

public are expecting good medical care. Plenty more to talk about,

but for now thank you. Now, the news headlines.

Libya's new rulers have insisted Saif Al-Islam will receive a fair

trial following his capture, as he tried to flee to Niger. Saif Al-

Islam was detained in the Libyan desert on Friday night and was

wanted by the International Criminal Court on charges of crimes

against humanity. The prosecutor will travel to Libya to discuss

where the trial should take place. Francis Maude has today warned

public-sector workers that the deal currently on the table is as good

as it gets ahead of next week's planned strike. He said trade

unions have jumped the gun in calling for the strike while talks

are still going on. He said under the deal on the table, public

sector workers would still have pensions that private sector

workers could only dream of. Back to Andrew in a moment, but first a

look at what is coming up after this programme.

Today, are we too sensitive about racism or should week show a zero

tolerance? Single women using IVF on the NHS - a right or a mockery

of free health care? And William Roache tells us why reincarnation

is one repeat we should all tune in for.

Francis Maude is still with me, and Tim Montgomery is back again. Tim,

you spend a lot of your time listening to the views of

Conservative activists, what is the big message on Europe? I think the

message from activists is that certainly the opportunity for a

renegotiation of Britain's relationship with Europe doesn't

come very often, and it looks like Germans desire for a stronger

fiscal Europe is about to come. The vast bulk of Tory members, more

importantly people in the country, hope we will take this once in a

generation opportunity to get back some of those powers that stop us

from being able to control of borders. It is too early to tell

what can happen. We don't know what kind of treaty change there will be,

whether we will be limited to the eurozone countries, whether it will

be more wide-ranging than that. don't want there to be a referendum,

do you? You rather hope it will be limited and this will push off

again. We are not going to agree any changes that give more powers

to Brussels and our commitment is that there will be a referendum if

there were any proposal that Britain should give more powers to

Brussels. That is a commitment we have put into law, but the extent

of there being a widespread change to the treaty which gives leverage

to reopen the whole lot of things, we don't know if that will be a

possibility. The folk singer Sandy Denny recorded a string of tracks

in the late 60s and early 70s with the Fairport Convention and solo,

but she died tragically young in 1978.

I comic songs like who knows where the time goes were hits, but years

after her death and number of lyrics were found that she had

written down but never recorded. Now Thea Gilmour has recorded some

of these lost songs, blending the lyrics with her own striking music.

Welcome. This is an extraordinary story because literally there were

old bits of paper and lyrics written by Sandy Denny that were

discovered again. The that's right. Her estate sent me a selection of

lyrics they had found, some very recently, some are good few years

earlier and asked me if I wanted to write music to it. I wanted to make

sure I could write good songs because it could have been a

tribute album. A does your music refer to the Sandy Denny style? Yes,

but there is a lot of myself in there as well because I always

wanted it to be a true collaboration and not a tribute

album. That is all we have got time for today. Next week I will be

talking to the Chancellor, George Osborne, and the shadow chancellor,

Ed Balls, and we will have a rare interview with that great actress

Rachel Weisz. Until then, we will leave you with Thea Gilmour and

Don't Stop Singing. # It's so late, it's tomorrow.

# There is nothing doing in my mind. # It's the first day that is so

hard. # So don't stop singing.

# No, don't stop singing. # Don't stop singing until you drop.

# The central heating pipes are banning.

# I keep thinking it is the car. # But if I keep up with my singing,

I won't be wondering where you are. # I won't be wondering where you

are. # So don't stop singing.

# Don't stop singing. # Don't stop singing on till you

drop. # Don't stop singing.

# Don't stop singing, don't stop singing until you drop.