11/12/2011 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Well, the week which saw a radical shift in Britain's

relationship with the rest of Europe and without doubt the most

memorable complaint by a French official about this country's

behaviour. David Cameron, it was said, was like a man going to a

wife-swapping party without bringing his wife - very French.

And Mr Cameron's rather stiff response that he didn't go to wife-

swapping parties was very British. But, of course, as we shall discuss

in the hour ahead, it's all a bit more serious than that. And joining

me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers are columnist,

Sir Simon Jenkins, the actress, Jenny Agutter, and the leader of

the UK Independence Party, Nigel Farage. The papers they'll be

reviewing are deeply divided in their reactions to Britain's veto

and the new European group it provoked. Europe leaves Britain. A

delighted mood in the Mail on Sunday - Cameron got it right.

While the Express says End of the EU is Unstoppable and that the

Prime Minister faces demands to seize back control of Britain's

destiny. But other papers instead talk of isolation and a divide

inside the Cabinet between the Tory Eurosceptics and their Lib Dem

partners. The man we've been waiting to hear from is the Deputy

Prime Minister and Liberal Democrat leader, Nick Clegg, and he's with

us this morning. A passionate pro- European - how does he feel about

what happened in the early hours of Friday morning? Is this a radical

break? What needs to happen next? Labour were quick to brand the

outcome of the summit a disaster. But what would they really have

done differently? We'll hear from the Shadow Foreign Secretary,

Douglas Alexander. Also this morning: At another summit in South

Africa, there seems to be agreement this morning on a global approach

to climate change. The evidence for that phenomenon was the theme of

Sir David Attenborough's final Frozen Planet programme earlier in

the week. I'll be discussing the evidence with him and talking about

the series, which has been yet another landmark in an already

incredibly distinguished career. Finally: Holding back the years -

two decades after all those Simply Red hits, Mick Hucknall returns

with something to get you in the seasonal mood. All that's coming up.

But, first, the news with Louise Minchin.

Good morning. The Prime Minister is preparing to make a statement to

Parliament tomorrow about the outcome of the Brussels summit. But

a number of senior Liberal Democrats have expressed dismay at

David Cameron's handling of the negotiations. And it's now emerged

that the divisions go right to the top of the Coalition.

When Nick Clegg gave his initial reaction to David Cameron's refusal

to sign up for Europe's new grand plan, he was supported. The Prime

Minister and I have worked together on the request for the safeguards

which we were seeking. We were not seeking some great repatriation of

powers from Europe back to Britain. We were not seeking some great

exceptional treatment for the City of London. Now his tone has changed.

Sources close to the Deputy Prime Minister have confirmed reports

that he doesn't think this is a good deal for Britain. Mr Clegg

apparently couldn't believe it, they said, when he was told the

summit had spectacularly unravelled. Europe was already a source of

tension in the coalition. I want to make sure we have more power and

control here in the UK. With the two parties holding such

contrasting views, this will now add to that. The Prime Minister is

due to explain tomorrow in Parliament what happened in

Brussels. He can expect praise from Eurosceptics on his own side but

sitting next to him will be a Deputy who has attacked him in the

media because he thinks he's left the UK isolated and vulnerable.

The UN Conference on Climate Change in South Africa has drawn to a

close with a last-minute compromise among the world's most polluting

countries. Delegates agreed to work towards a new deal that would

commit all countries to legally- binding limits on carbon emissions

by 2020. 36 hours after they were supposed

to have finished with delegates tired and frustrated, the major

polluters, the United States, India and China, agreed to a deal of

sorts. The aim was to find a global accord. The problem was the US,

India and China hadn't signed up to Kyoto and poor countries couldn't

afford climate-friendly policies. As this Durban conference dragged

on, it seemed a struggle to find common ground. The Chinese accused

the West of trying to lecture them. TRANSLATION: We are doing whatever

we should do. We are doing things you are not doing. What qualifies

you to say things like this? Nations directly at risk if sea-

levels rise urged agreement. While they develop, we die in the process.

Why should we accept this? Finally, all accepted a timetable to create

a global plan to be enforced from 2020 and a �60 billion fund to help

smaller countries afford the changes. But as tired delegates

applauded environmental groups were already saying the Durban deal is

too little and they just hope it isn't too late.

A new online comparison guide to care homes and domestic care

services in England is to be set up by the Government. The website will

rate services after official inspections. It will also publish

comments from residents and their families in an attempt to expose

abuse and raise standards. The city watchdog will be highly

critical of its own role in the collapse of the Royal Bank of

Scotland three years ago in a report to be published tomorrow.

The Financial Services Authority will say its supervision of the

bank was "deficient" in many aspects and its staff lacked the

necessary skills. RBS received a bailout of �45 billion from

taxpayers. The organisers of the Queen's

Diamond Jubilee River Pageant have revealed the design of the Royal

Barge that will head the flotilla. The 64-metre cruiser is being

crafted from an existing Thames sailing barge. It will be decorated

in red and gold and covered with flowers from the Queen's Gardens.

That's all from me for now. I'll be back just before 10.00am with the

headlines. Andrew. Front-pages today. It is all one

story - angry Clegg turns fire on Cameron over Europe veto. Sunday

Times - Cabinet rifts open up over Cameron's veto.

Sunday Telegraph - Europe veto: Tensions rise in Cabinet.

The other papers are all different. "It's all Kelly's fault" says the

Sunday Mirror. I would have shown you the Independent on Sunday but

it's been stolen by Nigel Farage of UKIP. He is among my guests as is

Jenny Agutter and Simon Jenkins. We will start with the obvious story,

are we? Nigel? It's what happened. It is this dramatic summit. The

reason I took this paper from you was, yes, it is Clegg rages at

Cameron's spectacular failure. So the Lib Dems are in a tight spot.

What people might not have noticed is that on page three, the latest

opinion poll puts UKIP above the Lib Dems in a national opinion poll.

So a big moment for you? It is. Without any shadow of a doubt.

However, do we come out of this summit and don't forget the Prime

Minister did what he did to protect the City of London. Has the City

been protected? Simon, what do you think about where the City stands

after all of this? Because we have got through the prologue to a very,

very long play, it is almost impossible to predict. Cameron had

to do what he did. The Labour Party would have done the same in office.

Yes. We are at the beginning of this process. What I find

fascinating is how each paper's presentation reflects its major

view on Europe. You have the Express, the Mail crowing,

delighted. You have the Independent and the Observer gloomy and

miserable. I wonder at the wonderful diversity of the British

press. Trying to weigh up both sides. And a return to older

fashion, divisions in politics. It is very good for newspapers?

one Government. What is coming next? I particularly picked up on

this article in the Sunday Telegraph. Europe's 26 plotting

their revenge. The big problem we have got now is we are still

members of the EU. We are subject to all of their laws. We are more

unpopular than we have ever been. We are in a permanent voting

minority. That very industry that Cameron sought to protect is

seriously under threat. There will be retribution. You have quotes

from various French officials and every time the bond markets twitch

in this long-running euro saga, I can see the finger of blame being

pointed at those awful Anglo-Saxons in the City of London. We will see

legislation on our foreign exchange business. I suspect within the next

few months, we will be asking yourself a bigger question - not

should we have gone along with this rescue plan, but should we be

members of this Union at all? see where Nigel is coming from. We

haven't a clue. We don't know. They have not sorted out the Greek

default yet. What happened last week was a slightly engineered

ejection of Britain from a group. They must have known what we would

do. It was all predictable. The question is what happens next. What

happens next - the ball is in their court. They have to do something

about the euro. I think out of the euro crisis comes the future of

Britain. Our future depends on what they do with that packet of

problems. Jenny Agutter, you have chosen a domestic angle on this,

Clegg and Cameron, I think? I saw something in the Times which I

don't have in front of me. It was an article really weighing up the

two sides and quotes from the Europe and all the rest of it.

say this, they say that, we don't know what is going to happen next?

Everybody seems to be surprised. This programme will be totally

different next week. It is different every week, Simon!

Everybody's eyes are on us now. Let's move to some other stories.

Jenny Agutter, you have a cystic fibrosis story? I do, indeed. Hopes

for cystic fibrosis drug kept alive by emergency cash. They talk about

a young woman - it's the Independent. I'm a Trustee of the

Sis tick Fibrosis Trust. -- Cystic Fibrosis Trust. The age has gone

from eight to 30. Now we are seeing cuts which will make the care more

difficult. It is a very good article with her about it. They are

looking at a young woman called Kirsty who was in a programme last

week called Life On The Transplant. It was very moving. Returning to

politics, I suppose if the EU story is about what is democracy and what

is not democracy, the same thing applies to the Russian story, which

would be huge on a different Sunday? It is very interesting to

see how the story moves on. You have in Russia what you think you

had in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya. There is a very good piece about

trying to give an account of what happened. What the people in Moscow

feel. You get no sense of what Russia feels. Capital cities are

not countries. I imagine this will pass. I can't believe Putin can't

handle it. But because you have the resonances with the Arab Spring, is

there going to be a Moscow winter? The press doesn't help you very

much. It tells you there is a riot in the capital. There is a very

atmospheric report in the Independent. An extraordinary

picture, as you said. It does describe what it is like being

there. What the people are doing. They say there's 30,000, but it is

more like 100,000. Provided you have a bit of flame or blood, it

gets into the newspapers. That's right. If you are going to have

flares and stuff, having snow and fog around them does make a lovely

picture. We mentioned the problems ahead for the City. There is

another story about past problems in the City, Nigel? Yes. It's the

pantomime season. The villain is back. Fred Goodwin, who, despite

the disaster at RBS, appears to be getting a pension of �340,000

pounds a year. We are not talking all ability Fred Goodwins. --

�340,000 a year. What's happening here is the blame game is now

beginning for what happened to RBS. This story of how this relatively

small Conservative Scottish bank in the space of a few years got itself

into such a mess that it was in danger of bringing down much of the

British economy with it. What will happen tomorrow is the FSA will

release their side of the story. They will blame the Bank of England

and in time the Bank of England will blame the FSA and I suggest

that Gordon Brown goes on a very long holiday because what he did as

Chancellor in '97, he set up this new agreement for the control of

Britain's banking industry. The upshot is that nobody knew who was

in charge and nobody took any Where did it the money go? �14

million -- �40 billion worth - these huge sums some around in

Europe, the idea that you can stop them with regulation is absurd.

That's true, the Dutch have been laughing all over their faces.

Before 1997, when the Bank of England had control over this, the

alarm bells would have wrong earlier. Let's turn to a

complicated story, the climate change conference in Durban. A lot

of decisions will be put off, but that is better than no decision at

all. Simon? You must remember in a newspaper, hell is a story that

breaks at 4 o'clock in the morning. It happened in Durban last night.

Durban talks in danger of collapse, by the time you read the story you

know they have not collapsed. It is a modified success, one of those

conferences where everybody agrees to do something knowing they won't

do it, but it is called a success. The Durban talks ended in an

agreement to continue the Kyoto protocol agreement. It is

slithering off the agenda now. There is this amusing story about

the turbines that caught fire. There are wind is too strong. You

then have to pay the owner of the turbines a lot of money for not

having bought the electricity. lot of enthusiast for wind turbines,

I did do so. They are expensive ways of giving which people more

money. We only have 3000 of them so far and think of the upset it has

caused. Chris Huhne's plan is to build 42,000 of them over the next

30 years. I'm sure that is not practically possible. The western

half of the British Isles will be coated in these machines, if this

plan goes ahead, and it will be entirely at public expense. And for

no C02 reduction. We have the whole of the desert covered anyway.

talking about Morris dancers now. Yes, a wonderful article in the

Mail. It is about flash more dancing because the Morris dancers

will not have a place in the Olympics festivities and

celebrations, so they are going to arrive and break out of the crowds.

This will actually really show people how extraordinarily crazy

the British people are. discovered this week what Morris

means, in Morris dancing. Moreish - Islamic dancing that came via Spain.

That very good. It is Islamic in origin. It looks like it is from

Turkey. But not have it in the Olympics is outrageous. You are

supposed to be allowed to have won support from your national culture.

It is the celebrations they want to be a part of, they want to show our

culture. We have 40 million, spend them on Morris dancers! The Speaker

of the House of Commons? Nigel? wife Sally, I confess I do like her

very much, but here she is launching a tirade on Twitter

against Kirsty Allsop calling her middle class. I think it is time

she piped down on these things. Police elections. This is a

wonderful story. We always turn to you when we want to know about Katy

Pryce! My starter for 10. Elected mayors everywhere, like in America

where they mean something, but because we can't have elected

mayors we have elected police commissioners. The story is that we

have Katie Price and Nick Ross all electing to stand as police

commissioners. It will put border back on the front foot. If I was in

Hampshire, I would vote for Jordan right away. To the real economy?

Stuffed in here, an article on Blumenthal and how his Christmas

puddings are on the black market. People are going into shops and

buying hundreds of Christmas puddings. They are making excuses,

saying they are for weddings, then selling them for large amounts of

money. This is reflected in the crime we are suffering at the

moment. You can't stop touting. may have damaged the viewer ship of

the last 10 minutes of this programme because they will be

rushing off to buy some! Christmas puddings, wind farms... They don't

appear in your history book, do they? They will in time. We have to

talk about the weather now. Winter moved into Scotland this week, and

even in the south there was frost Today I can use the phrase breezy

rather than stormy. We still of rain to talk about, you can see

where most of that is across England and Wales, turning heavy

into the early part of the afternoon. To the north of that is

where we get the best of the sunshine, particularly in eastern

Scotland. Southern Scotland looking good, and some of that sunshine

filtering into northern parts of England before the day is done.

This rain struggling to get down into the south-east before it gets

dark, but some particularly wet weather of down through Somerset

and Dorset. Once that has cleared from Devon and Cornwall, further

showers following in on the wind, and showers heading towards Wales

so never reliably dry it across Wales through today. One of the

drier spots will be in Northern Ireland, still feeling a bit on the

chilly side. Monday, an oasis of relative calm in what will be a

lively week. We have more stormy weather on the way, Tuesday and

Friday at the date to put in your diary. It will be a busy week in

diary. It will be a busy week in the weather Centre.

Labour lost no time in branding the outcome of the EU summit a disaster,

for the UK which has been left week. Does this mean Labour would have

supported the imposition of cuts demanded by bankers across Europe

without voters being given the chance of protesting? I am joined

by the shadow foreign secretary, Douglas Alexander. Let's talk about

the summit, it has been branded a disaster by Labour politicians, but

wouldn't a Labour prime minister, given what David Cameron was

confronted by, have had to do pretty much the same? Firstly the

outcome of the summit itself, it is economically inadequate and

politically disastrous. There was a deal to be done, and I believe a

Labour prime minister would have secured that. We would have had a

different approach and achieved a different outcome. There was a case

for saying how do we give protection to the single European

Act, given that we will see 17 countries in a tighter fiscal union

but there are ways that could have been achieved. Instead, David

Cameron suggested parts of the Act be revoked without consultation

with any of his natural allies before the summit. Now the days

have passed, it has emerged it wasn't about the protection of the

single market or financial services, it was about the politics of the

Conservative Party. Michael Heseltine said he didn't have the

votes to deliver a deal and that is a tragedy for Britain. Let me come

to what Labour might have done because there are certainly threat

being made to the city of London, which affect the prosperity of this

country, and given that the French and the Germans had at some level

lost patience with Britain as a non- euro member telling them what

to do, it was always going to be likely that they were going to

threaten the city in some way. I put it to you again, a Labour prime

minister, given those kind of threat, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown in

their days would probably have had to veto if not had a serious

confrontation. But there were alternatives. David Cameron walked

away without a single additional safeguard for the single European

market or the city of London. Ask Nick Clegg, are there any legal

protections in place today that weren't in place last week? We

could have asked for a seat at the table. Although we don't have a

vote, we should have had a voice, because otherwise we would see the

other countries sitting down every month, talking about issues

relating to the eurozone that will have a profound impact on the UK.

What sort of issues? In terms of what will be talked about? The

fiscal union we are now moving towards within the eurozone will

have a significant impact. My concern is that there is

essentially an austerity pact that could work for Germany but I

struggled to see how it will work for other countries around Europe.

This is where we get to the wider politics because what is happening

inside the eurozone, which Labour seems to be supportive of by and

large, is the position of austerity measures on populations in the

south for instance, in Portugal, Greece and so on, bankers terms

imposed from outside by the Germans and others and with no recourse

under this new agreement to the electorate. Why would a left-wing

liberal leaning party, at any stage, support this? His visit everything

you are opposed to? Those terms will not be imposed on Britain,

they will be imposed on the members of the eurozone. Do we agree with

the terms? No, what would be better it is that you need to address

liquidity, putting firepower behind the bank. One of the reason the

markets did not respond well on Thursday it is because we have not

got the political consent... Can I break in there because this is the

problem. This is what the French and Germans had decided not to do.

This is the plan they confronted Britain with. David Cameron,

confronted with that plan, had to walk away and he's popular in the

country for doing that. That's not why he walked away and he has lost

his ability to influence those events within the eurozone because

he will no longer have a seat at the table. That is why we were

urging that the Prime Minister should be saying, and the impact

will be felt across Britain, so let's make sure we have a seat at

the table. He didn't ask for it because he didn't want the deal. He

was more keen to exploit the situation because if the politics

of his party. He simply couldn't get a deal through the House of

Commons. None the less, he's very popular with the Tory party. That's

because he's following them, not leading them. Heat is the hero of

the hour, and the whole momentum of politics at the moment is taking us

towards a referendum, a bigger choice about being inside the EU or

not, and that may come quite soon. David Cameron has not sated the

appetite of his backbenchers, he will simply have encouraged them. I

don't believe right now the priority for Britain, when they are

struggling to see growth in an economy that is flat mining, would

be to spend the next few months negotiating a referendum, but there

are many backbenchers who do because this is the defining issue

for Conservative politics. Let me ask you about other things - the

riots and protest in Moscow. Do you think we are seeing the beginning

of something seismic happening in the former Soviet Union? What we

saw yesterday in Moscow was extraordinary. Protests, riots, the

like of which we have not seen since the 1990s in Russia and the

sense of invincibility Vladimir Putin has had is now being called

into question. I would stand with Hillary Clinton on her remarks that

there well founded concerns that today Russia looks like a police

state. You are back from Syria, you have just been to the Middle East.

Again, we seem to be on the edge off a potential full-scale

revolution now in Syria, horrendous bloodshed. We have been clear in

the Labour Party that we stand with the government on this one. We

think President Bashar al-Assad has run out of legitimacy. It's

important the Arab League continues to play our part in putting

pressure on his regime. His time is The word "masterpiece" is an

overused one, but it's the term that reviewers have been applying

to the television series, Frozen Planet. Narrated by Sir David

Attenborough, it charts life and death, change and convulsion at

both ends of the globe. But this series has also generated a renewed

debate on global warming. Before I speak to Sir David about all that,

here's a glimpse of Frozen Planet. Having led her cubs to the edge of

the ice, the mother's next challenge is to catch a seal. Not

easy with these two in tow. Her prey, beneath the ice, can detect

the slightest vibration, especially from bears, and this is not the

stealthiest of hunting parties. thought one of the great things

about this is the balance between anthromorphic - they are sweet?

is a very alien world. I don't yearn to be out there with those

animals - I do in the tropics, that's fine. It is a very, very

hard world out there. It is science-fiction for real. This is

an alien world, though close to us? Yes. Of o course, the South Pole is

-- of course, the South Pole is as alien as you can get. 100 years ago

it was as far as you could possibly go. Polar bears are one of your

favourite creatures, but you have been talking about - there is a

caterpillar things that seems to have become your personal

favourite? It is a miracle. A thing that size that is frozen solid, no

liquid in it at all, frozen solid, 14 times... We have seen bears

fighting there. There he is. That's the one. 14 times it gets frozen?

Yes. What about the darker side of the creatures that you have been

filming? The killer whales I suppose are the cruellest or the

toughest? They seem to enjoy playing with dinner as well as

hunting dinner? Yes. It is fairly mysterious, really. They seem to

enjoy hunting. They will pursue something for days and get it and

not bother to eat it. To - the story that killer whales would see

a stranded seaman on an iceberg and knock him off - nobody has proved

it, until this team. I wasn't there. But they did. They proved that

happening. Let's talk a bit about the team themselves. Lots of people

think, "I want to be David Attenborough when I grow up." They

ought to be thinking, "I want to be the cameraman out there." They came

very close to these whales? They are unbelievable cameramen. The

very notion of swimming underneath the sea ice gives me the frights. I

mean, appallingly difficult. To find your way back to the one hole

where you left, apart from the other problems. This show is a

cameraman's show, certainly not a narrator's show. They invested a

lot of money, the BBC invested a lot of money and time in doing it?

There are scenes that you could only get by repeatedly going there

and spending a very long time. Let me turn to the controversy

about the global warming point made. Not a phrase you use, I notice, in

the script that you deliver for the final film. You show some pretty

vivid scenes of pack ice breaking up and there are plenty of people

out there who say this is untrue, this is BBC propaganda, it's not

really happening? I'm surprised - I think they are mostly saying it is

not man's fault. There are very few people who say it is not happening.

If you ask people who are living up there whether it is happening or

not, they don't have any doubt. There isn't any question but that

the Poles are warming. The North Pole is warming. The South Pole is

a different thing. The South Pole is a huge icecap, miles thick, and

it creates its own weather. But the North Pole, I mean it really is

quite possible that within the next 20 or 30 years the North Pole in

winter will remain open and so you will be able to sail from the

Atlantic to the Pacific. What does that mean for the polar bears?

means extinction - yes, it means extinction for the polar bears,

really. You might say what does it mean for world trade? What does it

mean for killer whales? They will be able to go from one... Good news

for them. At the end, you posed the question, you point out that

through the history of the planet, animals have evolved to deal with

different conditions. And you ask whether mankind can adapt to what's

happening to the planet. You leave that open? Yes. The last programme

was very, very careful statement of what we see and what the evidence

is and the conclusions are political to some degree. Can I ask

what you think should be done? what we should be doing is to try

and reduce the rate at which the planet warms. We aren't going to be

able to stop it, that's for sure. All we can do is to slow it down.

And that's what has been going on in South Africa. Do you think we

should be looking at all the options? Every single option, yes.

The geo-engineering... That means you allow one small group to

determine what is going to happen to the whole globe. That - they may

say yes, we are confident about the science. But what about those

people who don't know about that, having it imposed upon them? Anti-

democratic? And what about the size of the Earth's population? You are

involved in an organisation which... That is one of the basic problems.

That is one of the reasons we are increasing so fast is that there

are so many of us. There are three times many more people on Earth

than when I started making television programmes. You met the

Queen during the week, I think? did. The Royal Family are

interested in these issues? Yes. You have been much-lauded for this

series and rightly so. I suppose the obvious and unfair question is

top that, is this the the apex of the career? I don't think I shall

start on another five-year project, put it that way. I don't see any

reason - I'm not stopping. I have plans for going on next year.

Everybody will be delighted to hear it. Thank you very much. Frozen

Planet is out on DVD. And let's just end with this little bonus,

which you may have enjoyed when it ran after the last Frozen Planet

programme. # I see skies of blue

# Clouds of white # Bright blessed days

# Dark sacred nights # And I think to myself

# What a wonderful world. # The natural world in all its

variety. And of course its cruelty and harshest too. I'm joined by the

Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg. Good morning. Can you explain why

if at all the City is really safer today than it would have been a

week ago? Well, I ambiterly disappointed by the outcome of last

week's summit. Precisely because there is a danger that over time

the United Kingdom will be isolated and marginalised within the

European Union. I don't think that is good for jobs in the City or

elsewhere. I don't think it is good for growth. I don't think it is

good for families up-and-down the country. That is why I will do

everything I can to make sure this set-back does not become a

permanent divide, that we get back into the saddle and we work and

exercise leadership on things like the single market, the environment,

foreign policy, defence policy, all the things that we need to do so

that Britain leads and we don't end up retreating to the margins.

be clear, those people who say actually the City may be in a worse

place as a result of what's happened because the other 26 can

get together and rules can be agreed on qualified majority voting

and we won't be at the table, they are right? I think they might be

right. I will be now actively working with not just business

groups and financial services, but manufacturers in my own

constituency, in Sheffield, who export to Europe. They are anxious

about what this means for their ability to continue to make things

in Sheffield and export them into what remains the world's largest

borderless single market. What I think we need to do, what I will be

doingis, what the Government will be doing is working with business

who are anxious about this and many of the business groups have said so

already and they want to see Britain standing tall in Europe,

defending their interest and making sure the integrity of the single

market is properly preserved. We will need to work especially hard

to make sure that happens. That is what we need to do next. If the

City isn't better protected, what was it all about? What was the veto

for? The safeguards which the Government as a whole sought were

pretty reasonable safeguards to ensure that the level playing field

upon which this huge single marblgt of over 5 50 million consumers were

based -- market of over 550 million consumers were based. There wasn't

any negotiation. There was no... There was no give-and-take at all.

The whole thing became polarised and that, potentially, over time is

damaging to Britain as a whole. All my political life I have believed

that Britain is stronger, better, greater when we lead and when we

stand tall in Europe because by the way, if we stand tall... Sure.

will be taken seriously in Washington. You think the Prime

Minister was trapped? I think the Prime Minister was in a difficult

position. He faced intransigence from France and Germany. I have

been warning for weeks privately and publicly that the danger at the

summit was one of division. That it was clear that the French

government would not shed a tear if Britain was pushed to the...

did the Government let its get into this position? Can I finish? It was

facing intransigence in large parts of the Conservative Party on Europe.

He couldn't come back empty-handed. Self-evidently if he had done so,

he wouldn't have been able to get whatever had been agreed through

the House of Commons. All we would have had would have been a delayed

crisis. You don't blame David Cameron for this, but you blame the

Conservative Party? When things breakdown in any negotiations, you

get a dialogue of people who aren't talking. On the one hand, we had

countries and particularly France and Germany who weren't interested

in trying to help out and on the other hand, we have had this steady

drum beat for years from the Conservative Party or parts of it

of outright antagonism to all things European. They think this

was a triumph? My view, they are spectacularly misguided. There is

nothing - I hear this talk about the bulldog spirit. There is

nothing bulldog about Britain hovering somewhere in the mid-

Atlantic not standing tall in Europe, not being taken seriously

in Washington. I have always believed in a self-confident, open,

engaged Britain. That is what I believe. It is what my party

believes in. I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that the

potential damage that could be done to us as a country is going to

happen. It depends on how we play our cards. That is why far from

retreating further to the margins, which is what some Eurosceptics

want, we should be re-engaging more fully. It is clear that you think

the veto didn't gain us anything and may have put us in a more

dangerous position. Can I ask you during those nine hours of

negotiations, at any point did the Prime Minister speak to you about

it directly? I spoke to the Prime Minister after the summit was

concluded. So not during the negotiations? He was locked in a

nocturnal negotiation. I was locked in my flat in Sheffield. You heard

about it early in the morning in Sheffield? I was called at 4.00 in

the morning as the thing broke up and I was told about the outcome

shortly before the Prime Minister gave a press conference. I told the

Prime Minister then... What was What was your immediate reaction?

said it was bad for Britain. I made it clear it was untenable for me to

welcome it. Subsequently, my first comment was that I regret the

outcome, the Euro-sceptics should be careful what they wish for. I

have, for a very long time, believed that the danger in all of

this is that firstly the eurozone does not get its act together, and

the jury this allowed to whether it has, and this may be a sideshow

compared to the economic story, and secondly that over a long period of

time I have said we need to do everything we could to avoid

division. I certainly could not have foreseen that we ended up not

in a situation of 17 versus turn, but one versus 26, which clearly,

whatever your views on Europe, and I know there are a lot of people

anxious about the European Union, but no one can believe it is good

for Britain in the long run. Many Conservatives would like to see a

referendum on our future Inside Europe - would you allow that to

happen? The there is no case for one when there is no transfer of

sovereignty of power. There should be a referendum if we were going

to... But this is the irony - we would never be asked as a country

to transfer any sovereignty from the UK to the EU. We were being

asked to consent to a new set of arrangements that would allow the

eurozone to do something fiscally. David Cameron needed to bring

something back to show safeguards were secured and that didn't happen.

I would like to ask you about the new set of arrangements. We appear

to have 26 countries meeting together to discuss massive

economic issues, but they are not the EU. Will they used the same

buildings, the same officials? What will happen? No one knows, this is

uncharted territory. My own view is that we need to make sure, as more

summits Becker and more discussions occurred - there will be other

opportunities in the months ahead for Britain to exercise some

influence - that we don't make this... Really? Because a lot of

people would say they will talk about the other issues. He then

there would be ludicrous for the 26, pretty much the whole European

Union with the exception of one, to recreate new institutions. Use the

old ones? The have said in summit conclusions that they want the

European Court of Justice to play a role in monitoring these tough

Germanic the school standards so they have already said there will

be crossover between some institutions we share. I think it

is important that what we do as a country is thinks Mart and long-

term -- think smart and long-term about the power and authority of

the European Commission in making sure the rules are enforced in an

even way across the European Continent. How does Britain climb

back into the boat, if that is what you think should happen? There will

be meetings every month to which Britain will not be invited, and

they will feel like meetings of the EU. They will feel like that, but

as I also explained, there is clearly a decision that has been

made to use some of the European Union institutions. That involves

us so we have a foot in the door. Only a foot in the door. Of course,

that is why I don't welcome this, that is why it I said I regret the

outcome of the summit. It all depends on what we do and what I am

going to do, and what this government should do, what I will

do in his coalition government is to fight for British long-term

interests to make sure business, jobs and growth are enhance am not

undermined. Can I put it to you, but as one of the most fervent pro-

European politicians and the country, you find yourself in the

middle of the government that has taken an irrevocable step that has

put Britain outside of the EU, and furthermore the prime minister is

extremely popular in his party and in the country as well. I accept

that if you go out in the country people agree with this. I have also

believed, as long as I have been in politics, but you shouldn't always

just do what is immediately popular. You have got to do what is right

for the long-term benefit of the country, and I have always believed

the right thing is for us to lead and stamp tall. What can you do?

What I think we can do, must do, and will do, is make sure this

setback does not become a permanent breach which damages jobs and

growth in this country. How? Just look at the summits that will now

happen. There will have to be a discussion about the use of

European institutions. We must make sure the use of those is done in a

way that safeguards the integrity of the single market, a bomb which

3 million jobs are directly dependent in this country. The poll

tax of this could change dramatically if the eurozone breaks

up in a disorderly fashion, and we could still be looking out.

All of this could look like a Sunday morning sideshow if the

eurozone goes belly-up, and I hope it doesn't because that would do

immense damage to our economy. We don't know yet if the issues have

been properly dealt with by this summit. There are now several more

months of cogitation is, where of course, not withstanding the change

that occurred last week, we can still make our voice heard. I will

never change from my lifelong belief that Britain is at its

strongest when we seek to lead debates. Do you think this summit

would have been more successful had the Liberal Democrats ministers

been more engaged in the preparation and been there as well?

I have not the prime minister, but of course things would have been

different because I am not under the same constraints. You would not

have let yourself be in that same position? Clearly we, this from

different directions. Well this break-up the coalition? It would be

even more damaging for us as a country if the coalition government

were to fall apart. That would create economic disaster at the

time of uncertainty. Europe said, you're angry, but you know you

can't do anything about it. There are many disagreements in a

coalition government of two parties who clearly don't agree. On this

particular instance, because it is so significant, of course these

things spillover. It is possible Britain is on its way to leaving

the EU? I will fight that tooth and nail because a Britain that leaves

the EU would be considered to be irrelevant by Washington, and

considered a pygmy in the world when I want to stand tall.

Now over to Louise for the news headlines. Nick Clegg has told this

programme the outcome of the Brussels summit was bad for Britain.

He said Euro-sceptic Conservative MPs who showed David Cameron to

show bulldog spirit were spectacularly misguided. The Prime

Minister will make a statement to Parliament tomorrow, about the

Delegates agreed to work towards a new deal that would commit all

countries to legally-binding limits on carbon emissions by 2020. The

conference in Durban overran by two days. That is all from me at the

moment. Back to you, Andrew. Now undoubtedly one of the most

distinctive voices in pop music in the late 1980s and 90s belonged to

Mick Hucknall. As the lead singer and songwriter for the soul band

Simply Red, he created a string of hits such as Holding Back the Years,

and Money's Too Tight To Mention. Success made him wealthy and he was

among a number of prominent donors to the Labour Party and supporters

of Tony Blair at the time of the 1997 election. As is often the way

in music, Simply Red gained legions of fans, but its detractors were

almost equally fervent. It was officially retired last year, but

now Mick Hucknall is back, solo, with a new single, and he joins me

now. Welcome. One of the things that even Simply Red fans might not

have realised is how much you came out of the punk scene in Manchester.

It is not something you would be associated with now, dare I say?

I also spent a few years on the dole, which gave me life-changing

experience, and I therefore tried to apply that in how I understood

the world and in my politics. A you are at the marmite singer, I would

say. Some people a door you and you have had detractors as well. Do you

think that is inevitable if you are going to be different? It is a lot

to do with having an opinion. If you express an opinion, clearly not

everyone will agree with you. Having a political view about

things, about the against Margaret Thatcher in the 80s for example

would have created a lot of enemies. Are you still a Labour donor and

supporter? A have not donated any money to the Labour Party since

Iraq. That is my position. Pretty self-explanatory. Thank you. Well

that's all we have time for. Thanks to all my guests. Do join me again,

at the same time next week, for our last show before Christmas. We'll

be looking back over a very eventful year, with the Mayor of

London among others. And we'll have more live music. But for now, we

leave you with Mick Hucknall, and # Year after year

# Life wasn't by his December # Now Christmas is here

# Tell me the things you remember # Singing our favorite songs

# Let's forgive and forget # All the things that we hoped

# Won't go wrong # People come together

# From all over the world # We're all coming together

# Tell me can you feel it # I hope you're happy this

Christmas # Are you cheering for Christmas

# All over the world # Looking at the world

# Wondering where this is going # The people you love

# The life you have seen # Are we growing

# Singing our favorite songs # Let's forgive and forget

# And fill the world with happiness tonight

# People come together # From all over the world

# We're all coming together # Tell me can you feel it

# I hope you're happy this Christmas

# Are you cheering for Christmas # I hope you're happy this

Christmas # Are you cheering for Christmas