15/01/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Welcome. Busy old day in the news around the world. Over

in the State, the republican race to contest the next presidential

election has turned nasty. Mitt Romney, who is a Mormon is the man

to beat, but his rivals have already criticised him for backing

Government-funded health care and raising taxes. However, a new ad

delivers the ultimate insult. It says that Massachussetts moderate

Mitt Romney, he'll say anything to win, anything warns the narrator

and he speaks French too! That's him finished. He probably eats

cheese as well. Joining me today for the review of the Sunday

newspapers, the Scottish musician and chef, Midge Ure, and the

independent columnist, Mary Ann Sieghart. In tough times, you might

expect the Prime Minister or the Deputy to be getting a drubbing

from the commentators, but that privilege goes to the opposition

leader, Labour's Ed Miliband. Some of what he said, talking about the

squeeze to middle, attacking the Murdoch empire and calling for a

crackdown on City bonuses has been echoed across the political

spectrum. But he's been accused by his own side of lacking strategy

and energy and his polling is poor. Now, after a major shift of

direction, seemingly accepting Government cuts he once opposed, Ed

Miliband joins me this morning to talk about the year ahead.

Yesterday saw a noisy protest in the usually calm surroundings of

Harley Street in Central London. Women who've had faulty silicone

implants are demanding the companies who performed the

operations the cost of replacing them, or should we the taxpayers

pay? I'll be asking the Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley, who

picks up with bill when a private health firm gets it wrong? David

Hockney gives us a personal tour of a huge exhibition of his art.

All of that after the news. Here is Susanna Reid.

A Korean couple on their honeymoon have been found alived on the

capsized Italian cruise ship, Costa Concordia, 24 hours after it ran

aground off Italy's coast. Rescue teams continue their search for

survivors as around 40 people are still missing, although a third

person has been rescued this morning. The Captain has been

arrested. From Italy, Matthew Price reports.

Overnight, an astonishing moment. Rescuers located and then brought

out two people who'd been trapped by the water inside the ship for

over a day. Some 40 others though are still

unaccounted for. TRANSLATION: We need to investigate,

we need to search for other people. They're still under the water. But

it's a difficult situation, very dangerous, because the ship is very

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 97 seconds

deep under the sea and could go Of a post-mortem examinations have

revealed the couple died from several blows to the head. Fines

for people who put their rubbish in the wrong bins, or out on the wrong

day, are being scrapped. Local authorities can currently find

household as if they do not follow rules on putting a recycling but

critics say it is not fair to charge people who have made a

genuine mistake. The awards season gets underway in Hollywood this

evening. Several British productions have received

nominations including Downton Abbey. Actors hoping to pick up awards

include Kenneth Branagh and Kate Winslet. Ricky Gervais will host. I

Front-pages as usual. Interesting to see the Sunday Mirror there. It

was just like Titanic. And the Sunday tp Telegraph, it was just

like Titanic. Of all the Sunday newspaper, the Sunday Telegraph

wins the prize for the most dramatic presentation of that very

dramatic story. They've also got a Scottish opinion poll related story

there which we'll talk about in a minute. The Observer leads on

Scotland. Alistair Darling tells the Scots of huge economic risk

from UK split. And there's a vast amount about the future of the

union across the papers. There's the People, it's sinking, pray for

us and the Independent on Sunday, we hit a rock, it shouldn't have

been there. Or they shouldn't have been there, more to the point, the

rock had nothing to do with it, it was innocent. The Sunday Times, a

story about Cherie Blair looking for �65 million to raise for

private health clinics. Midge Ure and Mary-Ann Sieghart, thank you

both very much for coming in. Let's start with Scotland, Midge, it's

absolutely everywhere? It is. It's understandably so. As a Scot, not

living in Scotland, I won't have a say in the outcome of this. But I

think it's very important. I'm not an SNP fan, I'm not a huge fan of

Party Politics, a bit like most of the records in the top 40 these

days, it's diluted by the masses, the amount of people that are

involved in it. I do like Alex Salmond, I find him a very strong,

independent character. He's getting a kicking, very easy kicking, from

the cartoonists and the unionist commentators? He has a good figure

to emulate in the cartoon. I think it's dreadfully important that

Scotland itself, the people of Scotland decide who, where, within

this decision should be made. The last thing that they need or want

or require is an upper middle class Englishman telling them how they

should deal with their own futures. However, the opinion poll that I

mentioned which is in the Sunday Telegraph is interesting,

suggesting that the English are even more enthusiastic about

Scottish independence than the Scots are? Well, maybe it's David

Cameron's desire to get rid of Scotland because I couldn't think

of a better way of doing it, you know. If there's a grey area or a

no area in Scotland for devolution, he's probably just changed that. I

can sense, in my body, the people of Scotland, you know, they're

rebuilding Hadrian's Wall. Mary Ann, it would be useful for the

Conservatives in the Scots weren't part of the Westminster Parliament?

Yes, that's the irony. That you could have almost permanent

Conservative Government in England and Wales and Northern Ireland if

you lost all the Labour seats in Scotland, yet they are the

Conservative and Unionist Party or at least they always used to be

called that. Unionism is really in the marrow of their bones.

I think in the end, having the nuclear deterrent and the Security

Council and the position inside the EU probably matters more to the

Cabinet than... Yes, but would Britain lose that if it lost

Scotland? Probably not, but Scotland would lose it if it went

independent. What is quite interesting is ministers are saying

all kinds of chilling things about the awfulness of what would happen

to the Scottish economy and to the currency if Scotland were to become

independent. But they are not talking about the benefits to

Scotland of remaining in the union. Everything so far is negative.

Which I think that's a mistake. next story. You have got one of the

stories about this terrible cruise ship disaster? Only really to echo

what you said which is that this is the most dramat you can photograph

isn't it? -- dramatic photograph. We are used to cruise ships feeling

like floating cities, you get on one and it's like being part of a

huge town. The idea that it can be sunk by a rock. You have modern

technology now also which steers you away from rocks, doesn't it?

That's what we thought? It claims in the papers that if it deviates -

in here, there's a little map of what the intended route was meant

to be - and the ship does something like three miles off course. The

moment it goes off course, alarms go off and none of this happened. I

like the fact the Captain claimed the rock shouldn't have been there

and the papers are likening it to the Titanic. The Titanic, I think

the iceberg was floating, the rocks are fairly fixed, you know. Indeed.

Let's move on to some politics, Mary Ann, you chose again a lot

about Ed Miliband as I said at the begining of the programme, as we

said? The poll in the Sunday Times is shocking news for Ed Miliband,

shows that Conservative supporters think that Cameron is doing a good

job by a factor or 91, in other words, 9% think, or even more than

that, they think he's doing a good job. Even for Nick Clegg, Lib Dem

supporters have give him a positive rating of 45, Ed Miliband gets a

negative from his own supporters of minus 3 points. They don't think

he's doing a good job. Voters they Ed Miliband and Alistair Darling

would be better leaders of the opposition than Ed Miliband.

Presumably, Ed Balls's announcement that there has to be a pay freeze

until the next election isn't going to help the mood of the party

activists and a lot of Trade Unionists? Well, it's not going to

help any workers in the public sector either. I think he's right

and it's a good argument to say we have to put jobs before pay rises,

in other words people in jobs should make small sacrifices in

return for helping unemployed people into jobs. It's going to

help a lot more people in number terms than it will help. Miliband

is also saying today he wants to close tax haven loopholes. This is

because he's desperately trying to find something that will

differentiate himself from the Tory party. What happens is, whenever he

comes up with a good idea, this often happens in opposition, the

Tories or the coalition grab it, so Cameron's been talking about

responsible capitalism which is what Miliband was talking about at

the Party Conference. I suspect it will be a point he makes later on.

We'll see. He's saying he'll close the tax haven Liverpool holes which

the Conservatives won't because that's the party of the rich.

of stories around. A shameful one you have chosen here if it's true?

Yes, the marines urinating on the corpses of the Taliban. I'm sure

it's one of these things, dreadful things have happened in the past,

I'm sure, in conflicts and war, but this has come to light because of

this ridiculous scenario where everyone has a mobile phone with a

camera on it and they seem to think it's OK to video stuff like this

and share it with the rest of the world. But isn't it better that

they did because then these guys wouldn't have been found out. It

makes people more accountable? it's how they think this can do

this in the first place and then think, OK, we'll film it for a bit

of fun. It's a continuation of that kind of slap-happy scenario that

school kids would do many years ago. Very interesting that the Taliban

said that this would not derail any talks. There is stuff going on out

there that we don't really know about I suspect. Absolutely. Do you

remember a Dean of the Church of England who was offered to be the

bishop. Rowan Williams withdrew that offer because Geoffrey was gay.

He is gay and celebat and the rules say you can be homosexual but can't

be in an active relagsship. He followed the rules. He had the

Bishop of Reading withdrawn. He was then up to become Bishop of

Southwark and was vetoed for the same reason. Now he's saying, I'm

going to take you to court. Because of employment law which forbids

discrimination against gay people. Not an ecclesiastical court?

civil court. But what about the still-ons of women who ought to be

able to be Bishops. I don't think the church has cans of worms but if

it did this would be one serious can of worms? Yes. The next story?

We have the Globes coming up this evening. The Golden Globes and I

think it's quite incredible. David Cameron has the subtlety of a

flying brick. He's alienated the entire British film industry and

his comments on Scotland of course too. But, movie like this, directed

by Steve McQueen, is up for a Golden Globe, if movies like that

weren't made, you know, we wouldn't be up for these awards. There's

also great speculation about the fact that the food at these very

extravagant dos, edible gold leaf or whatever, every major event I've

been to like that, the food is always atrocious. They are catering

for thousands of people an nobody can do good food. Always cold and

dreadful. But it's the opulence of it... The chef supremo you were.

will haunt me for a long, long time. Ricky Gervais is come pering it

again. He managed to insult everyone so fascinating they've

asked him back. I think it's because he can say things American

hosts can't and they have this extraordinary love-hate

relationship with him. They can't resist even though they pretend to

be offended by it. He puts a global slant on things. We've got one

final story. The minister who has sold her house. You would think,

why would it be a story that a minister sells her house?

Her house was about 400 yards from the high-speed rail link and she

sold just before the announcement it would go ahead and now she has

not even got a house in her constituency. It was blighted by

the probability of it going yet so it is not like she had inside

information but still, you can see why it is not going down well.

feel sorry for the people who bought it. They must have known.

Any news on the band? The first new album in 27 years. It will be

spring. To make a record after all that time, it has to be good, so

hopefully it is. Got a good feeling about it? Positive MACRO. We used

to go to the same New Romantic nightclubs! Can't you tell? I knew

I had seen you before! Now the Yesterday we enjoyed wonderful,

clear blue skies, a great day to It will be another cold day with

spells of sunshine. Frost is lifting across East Midlands, it is

generally frost-free in Northern Ireland. The cloud in Northern

Ireland should break, we should see the cloud break across Wales and

the West Country. More cloud stretching from East Anglia to

north-east England but more This evening temperatures drop

quickly under the clear skies with Frost developing widely overnight.

Some patchy fog developing in eastern England and eastern

Scotland. Grace dart across some parts of England and Wales. --

Temperatures should rise next week with a frosty start on Tuesday. On

Wednesday, double figures in England and Wales but there will be

Don't panic is the message from the government to women with breast

implants, a message spelt out in newspaper adverts this weekend. The

NHS will put right Operations it performed in private clinics that

used faulty clinics -- implants. Two of the biggest chains of

clinics that performed the operation say their patients will

have to pay all over again. Earlier I spoke to Andrew Lansley from our

Cambridge studio and asked him if the Government could force private

companies to act. We have no powers to do so, these were private

contractors and private health care providers. So we do not have power

to do that by the Iraq clear legal obligations on these providers as

well as a moral obligation for the continuing care to patients. Taking

advertisements in newspapers was to make clear to all women that we are

there to support them. If their private provider will not, or

cannot provide them with support, we will do so. The advert is clear

- if a woman has any need for support, talk to your GP and on the

basis of that the NHS can give you access to investigation if you

needed and removal of the implant if that is the conclusion you reach

with your doctor. As I understand that the NHS would remove a faulty

implant if that was what was needed but would not pay for replacement.

In practical, physical and emotional terms that is not

unrealistic sounding prospect too many. We will replace implants for

those who were originally NHS patients. Or where it is clinically

necessary to do so but it is not the role of the NHS to replace

implants thought -- purely for cosmetic purposes. In many cases

there will not be a need to do so from a clinical point of view.

Wouldn't that leave a lot of women in a pretty unpleasant condition,

feeling bad about themselves and perhaps there is lots of surplus

skin and so forth, and actually this is something the NHS should

pick up? The expert group were clear in their advice to me that it

was not necessary clinically except in relation to women who had had

breast reconstruction surgery who had been supported through the NHS

and the first place. If women are looking for replacement of these

implants then ideally they should be looking to do so through their

private providers who provide them with a cosmetic benefit in the

first place. The NHS is there to provide clinical services, not to

provide services that will not clinically necessary, so we will

support women but let me also just say that the expert group are also

clear this is not an urgent procedure. There is no clear

evidence of increased risk associated with these PIP implants

compared to normal ones. There is no link to cancer, if you remember

before Christmas that was the original press report suggesting

there was a link to cancer, but there is not one. The French and

authorities are clear Rahmat, too. I know women are worried, and

understandably so, but I do not think they should proceed on the

basis that there is urgent need for the removal of these implants.

we have private companies walking away from what many consider their

obligations. Are you happy they carry on working and functioning

after this kind of abdication of responsibility? No. I think the

argument that they cannot afford to do so it begs the question of where

was their insurance? Where were they insuring themselves against

their liabilities? These are all issues are I hope the medical

director of the NHS will look into the sea convenes an expert group. I

think the ability to meet their liabilities towards patients should

be an issue we look at. What about the wider position? Many people

have had, or will have hip- replacement, knee replacements, all

kinds of Operations performed by private clinics and inevitably some

of these will go wrong at some stage, is very wide issue here

about the responsibility of the NHS picking up problems, or failings

which emerged through private clinics and hospitals? If there is

a wider issue it is something the review of surgery when we live cat

will identify. Where there are clinically... For example, in the

past we have had hip-replacement so that have gone faulty, but they

were not effective, and the NHS is there for patients when Everett is

clinically necessary to replace any kind of device of this kind. --

whenever it is clinically necessary. Under all those circumstances the

NHS is there to provide NHS services and give people that kind

of confidence that if anything went wrong at the NHS would be there to

support them. I do not think we can compare what happens in the private

sector privately outside the NHS and the role of the private sector

in providing NHS services. Thank you for joining us. We do not have

many people in Britain who really deserve the word genius. The artist

David Hockney is one. Once best known for its vivid images of

Californian, he is now spending most of his time in his native East

Yorkshire working outdoors in all weathers. He has recently produced

a remarkable series of paintings and films showing the landscape he

has known from childhood through the changing seasons. They now

feature in an exhibition about to open in London. I went to the Royal

Academy yesterday to talk to David Hockney about his latest work. We

are here in the Royal Academy. The home of the Turners, the constables

over the centuries. -- Constables. You have filled the rooms with

landscape paintings, something which people say is dead.

landscape and nature, it is just our way of looking at things. How

do you revive it? It cannot be true we are fed up of nature, we are

part of it. We can't be. I am perverse enough to know that is a

challenge and I am prepared to take it on. There are some amazing rooms

of pictures here. This is one of the most extraordinary, about the

arrival of spring in East Yorkshire. This is the only room where the

work was made for this room, the scale of it and everything. This is

a painting of the early spring when the leaves are first low and a

float, you have this marvellous feeling of things floating. I then

realised the arrival of spring is quite an event, it takes time to

sit, to depict it. He have done a large number of iPad pictures which

have then been blown up big. It is a very new medium in a way. The

great thing about it is speed of the way you can book marks down,

colour -- put marks down, colour. In England the light changes

constantly, it is cold. That is probably why Turner was using

watercolours, the speed of the medium to get atmospheric effects.

These are not drawn that quickly but you can establish the colour

very quickly. Once you put colour down you can pick it out again. It

is all in your hand. You don't even need a glass of water, watercolour

is quick but you have to wait for it to dry. Ensure artists will pick

it up because anybody who draws well is interested in speed.

Rembrandt drew quickly. Could you There is a great deal of work on

this one. That was all done on this? Positive MACRO. -- yes. This

is the beginning of spring 2012. You build it up. I know we are

going to print this be so you were concerned about textures and you

keep going on it. I have to learn how to do this. It is an endless

sheet of paper. But in your pocket. The exhibition is going up at the

moment. Here are some examples of the extraordinary colours you have

drawn out of the East Yorkshire landscape. This is the best colour

Actually there is a lot of colour in Yorkshire, There is. You have to

You have to ask yourself questions. Once you start to draw, you do that

all time. You have been working for about five years for this moment?

It is very exciting. This is one of the examples of the pictures you

have been making bigger and bigger. One of the things was indeed little

studio in Bridlington there was a limit to the size of the canvas you

could take upstairs because of the edging round the stairs. So it was

a bit bigger than this. But I thought if I wanted to paint a

bigger picture just put a few together and you can get out of the

studio and carry them about. This It is called a close the tunnel.

You are more in it. -- close at Tunnel. On the scale you have to

There's nothing here that is political painting and yet it seems

to me that, you know, at a time when people are worried about

England and the condition of England and so on, it's all going

away they think, actually you are saying to people look harder and

it's still there. Is that true, is that fair? Yes, it is actually. And

it's very beautiful. We live in a very, very beautiful part of the

world that has seasons that change. Ruskin said there was no such thing

as bad weather in England. He pointed out it's never too hot,

it's never too cold, it's always bearable. If you want a green

garden you've got to have rain. I mean, it's all part of it. I agree

with him. I mean, I criticised the weather when it's bad, I always

think, the weather is bad, but for who? The moment it snows in Britain,

we go out to see it. You built models for this show, you have been

working on it for years. How does it feel now to see it almost up?

I think it's terrific, actually, I think it's been done very well.

I've lived with the mod eld for the last six months so I knew what

things would look like -- model. Quite a moment? Terrific I think,

yes. Thank you very much. Very good. Yes.

And that exhibition is on at the Royal Academy in London until April.

You can see a longer film I've been making with David Hockney on the

Culture Show on BBC Two on Saturday 4th February.

When some of your closest colleagues express doubts about

your leadership and the opinion polls show your opponent outscoring

you, you know you have a battle ahead. Ed Miliband came out

fighting this week, saying he had a strong inner belief that he'd win

the next election and that he was a man of grit and inner steel. Good

morning. Good morning, nice to be with you. Thank you.

The most dramatic political announcement I suppose from your

side in the last week was what Ed Balls said about a change in

direction. Sure. On economic policy. He said that the Conservative

coalition cuts could not be restored and that Labour accepted

those? I wanted to test you on some of

those cuts because, for instance in the House of Lords last week, there

were some fairly severe battles about welfare reform, for instance.

That unlimited support for cancer patients in employment could no

longer be guaranteed. So does Labour now accept that? Well, let's

come to the specifics in a minute, but I want to set out exactly what

we said and why it's important. The autumn statement last year, George

Osborne's autumn statement, that showed that the Government was not

going to succeed in its plan to get rid of the deficit in one

Parliament. So, Ed and I took the decision, entering this New Year,

that it was right to acknowledge the circumstances that Labour would

face. Now, I want to correct you on one thing - we continue to believe

the Government is going too far and too fast in the cuts they are

making. How so, because if you... Let me just... He said very clearly

he was committed to the fact that you could not restore the cuts?

me just make this point, Andrew, they're two sides of the same coin.

We think the Government is gooing too far and fast. The impact of

that is that it's bad for jobs, growth and borrowing as well. If

they carry on on that course, we are going to inherit a difficult

situation. We wish they'd change course because we think actually

slower cuts aren't just important for services to protect safety on

our streets, for example, but also necessary for our economy. But if

they don't change course, we are going to inherit a difficult set of

circumstances. Now, in those circumstances, if I were to come on

your programme and say, well, take the cuts to some of the cuts that

are being made, I can promise you now that I would restore them, you

would say, where's the money going to come from? You don't know the

circumstances you are going to inherit. Ed made an important point.

So they are wrong but you accept what they are doing? I don't accept

what they are doing. This is the oddity? Not at all. We don't accept

it. Very interesting what happened with the eurozone, the downgrading.

Standard & Poor's in their downgrading, they said austerity,

the path that is being pursued is self-defeating. If you raise taxes

too fast... For France... If you raises -- raise taxes too fast, you

get low growth and it's harder to pay your debts so. The Government

should change course. You have still got a triple-A rating and

they don't? The consequences of the Government's failure is something

the Next Labour Government will inherit. The other important thing

I'm saying is even in tough times I believe we can make our society

fairer. I want to come on to that in a moment, but let me return to

some of those specifics. Sure. Severely disabled young people.

When they reach the age of 18, they get Government support without a

means test. The Government wants to change that. We think they are dog

the wrong thing. They are doing the wrong thing, but you would not

restore that if you were in power yourself? But I can't make that

promise because it wouldn't be a responsible promise. Just on those

sorts of specifics, what then is the difference between the proposal

that Labour will be making come a general election on those kind of...

I look forward to coming on to your programme and talking about that at

the time of the general election. Ed Balls said there is no

difference? He hasn't said that, Andrew. He said that you couldn't

restore ANN of the cuts? Let me finish this point. He didn't say

that. There is a big difference, if Labour was in power now, we

would.making the changes or cutting as far and fast as the Government.

We would be making cuts, in the police we said we could cut by �1

billion, you could protect fontline services, the Government chose to

go further and faester. When it comes to the Next Labour Government

if I said to you, I can promise to restore this or that cut, you would

say well where's the money going to come from, how do you know, what

circumstances will you inherit? This is absolutely responsible

opposition and it's absolutely a right thing for us to be doing at

this stage of the Parliament. know that there isn't money, there

won't be money then and there isn't money now and that therefore a more

serious programme of cuts has to be supported and that is the change

that you and Ed Balls have agreed? No, we are slightly going round in

circles, but... Enjoying it... too. I continue to believe and we

continue to believe that the Government is pursuing the wrong

strategy. If they changed course, it would be better for the public

finances as well because look, the problem they've got, �158 billion

more borrowing. That's what the Chancellor announced. It is self-

defeating. But because they're making such a mess of things,

because of the way they are going about things, the prospects for

what we'll inherit if we win the election in 2015 look pretty grim,

frankly. We are showing that we understand those circumstances. Ed

also showed yesterday you can make difference choices. I want to come

on to those points, but one more time around the roundabout, if you

look at what's happened for instance in France where they've

lost their triple-A rating and other European countries. They also

have very high deficits. Britain so far hasn't lost its triple-A rating,

yet if you don't make the cuts and keep the taxes up, then you are

going to have an even bigger deficit? Well, that's the

Conservative view but it's wrong, Andrew. I'll tell you why it's

wrong. The managing Director of The IMF, Christine Lagarde, made a very

important statement a few months ago and said markets care about

deficit reduction but they also care deeply about growth. There are

three elements to getting the deficits down, tax changes,

spending cuts but growth. If you get people into work paying tax,

not out of work claiming benefits, you are more likely to get the

benefits bill down and the deficit down. That's why the Government is

borrowing more and not less. Their plan's failed. Those are the

circumstances we are going to inherit and we are absolutely

determined that Labour shows that we will be fiscally credible in

Government. It's the right thing for us to be doing, why I made the

speech on Tuesday and why Ed made the speech yesterday.

So building schools for the future, described as a disgrace when that

was scrapped by this Government, that has gone, that is your message,

sorry it's gone and it's not coming back? We can't promise that at this

stage. It would be harder to do that. It's true to say... What

about... Let me make this point. It will be harder. The Next Labour

Government will face a much trickier time than the last Labour

Governments did because we had growth going up, tax revenues

coming in and we were able to spend the money. We've got to find

different routes to fairness, but there are different choices we can

make. One example, because we are talking about young people, the

Government wants to go ahead with a tax cut for the banks over the

coming years, I say wrong choice, don't go ahead with that. To build

a new economy for the future, it's much more important to invest in

young people. Cut the division fee to �6,000, it's a difference. It's

going to be different choices, harder choices than we faced in the

past, but it's tough choices that I think we can make and we can make

more in the interest of people in this country than this Government.

But there isn't a fiscal route to salvation any more? There isn't a

tax and spend difference which is big enough to alter the direction?

I think I put it slightly differently. There are different

tax and spending choices you can make and I've just illustrated one.

But if you think about where British politics was up to 2007-

2008, it was really an arguep about the spending of proceeds of

economic growth. If we are going to inherit a big receive sit because

of this Government's failure after the next election, it's going to be

tougher. That's why I talked about taking on the vested interests

because if it's harder to spend more money on the winter fuel

allowance say for pensioners, all the more important to say to the

energy companies, you have got to stop ripping off elderly people, so

guarantee that people over 75 get the minimum tariff. It's a change

you can make. It's not about spending more money. These may be

important changes and may be about fairness. In terms of the big

picture in the economy, they are not big enough to push the economy

in one direction rather than another. Everybody seems to believe

that the biggest problem over the last year has come from the

eurozone crisis which would have happened whether the Government

here was Conservative, pink, blue or any colour. By the way, you are

in a sort of shrug your shoulders mindset. There's nothing the

Government kps No, the The first part of your question. We'd take

action now to slow the pace of deficit reduction and get the

economy moving. It's crazy to leave young people unemployed when you

could be funding youth jobs by having a bankers' bonus tax. It's

crazy to let growth stall when you could be stimulating the economy.

So one more huge example, big, big one. VAT. Does Labour's proposed

VAT reduction remain on the table at the next election or is that

also wrong because of the economic situation? It depends on the

circumstances at the next election. You and Ed Balls have been talking

about this on platforms, are you still talking about this? What is

my advice to the Government now - change course, change course. This

reminds me, from the history books, of the 1930s, because people were

talking about whether anything could be done. The view was,

Government is powerless in the face of these large forces, there's

nothing Government can do. Actually, I don't believe that. The reason

I'm in politics is because I always think politics can make a

difference. That's the point of being in it. We can make a

difference now and we can make a difference even in the tough times

we might inherit in the middle of this decade. Let me put it to you

that the tough times may be a lot tougher than even what we have seen

over the last year or two. Sure. The news from the continent is

terrible without talking it owl dawn and people are getting --

talking it down people are getting worried. Things may change

radically, that being so, are you saying enough? Is your message big

enough and radical enough to catch people's imaginations? So far it

hasn't? It's interesting. At my conference speech, I talked about

we needed to change many of the assumptions on which we built

economic policy for 30 years. I said we needed to move away from

what I called irresponsible capitalism, based on short-term

wealth creation, for example some of what we saw in the financial

services, not all of it, but some of what we saw, the people at the

top creaming off the big rewards, the vested interest like the energy

and train companies ripping people off. When I said that, people said

that's a big left wring and out of the mainstream. Now the Prime

Minister and Deputy Prime Minister are falling over themselves to say,

yes, we too want to take on croney capitalism. I think that's a sign

that I'm on the right themes and this is big Andrew, about big

reshaping of our economy and a big change in the way the vested

interests work. It's about a big change also in who gets the rewards

in our society, the famous squeezed middle and how we deal with the

issues. Let's turn to what you would do then because you can't tax

more and can't spend more, can't tax much more and can't spend much

more? Sure. You can make difference choices, yes. That fiscal route to

salvation's pretty much to one side. So given what can be done, what are

the big changes, for instance, that need to be made in taxation? It has

been argued that taxation of income has gone about as far as it can and

that you should be thinking much more carefully about taxation of

assets, all those people with large multi-million pound pots invested

in their houses for instance? look at all thoseish yous. Again,

it's something for the manifesto to look at issues of taxation across-

the-board. That's what you would expect us to do. One thing I say is

it's not my priority to cut the 50p tax rate which this Government

seems to think. But I think actually that when you say we need

an agenda that speaks to the big times, I think it should be about

reshaping the economy. How does What has bedevilled British

companies for a long time? The fat they are taken over quickly, we

need to look at takeover rules. The way the stockmarket and British

Finance work. Fund managers are saying the next couple of months is

what matters. We have to look at the way that works. Funding for

small business, we had a proposal the other day modelled on what is

happening in America to give a better deal for small business in

relation to venture capital. Reshaping rules for the City?

absolutely. Reshaping the rules for our economy, for the city, we

cannot go on with business as usual. And I am not saying let's go back

to 2007, let's go back to live there for the financial crisis, I

arguing for a big reshaping of how our economy works. In terms of big

issues and what about the Scottish debate at the moment? Do you also

think English and Welsh voters should have a say, if for example,

the Scottish are being asked about TK Maxx? -- devo max? Then they

should be cross-party talks in Scotland about how it would work. I

care passionately about the future of the UK. Are you putting Alistair

Darling in charge of your Cabinet? He would be a really important

voice in this and has shown the eloquence he can do it with. My

case is about our shared history and institutions, including the BBC,

the NHS and other institutions. Our shared economic interest now

because we are stronger together and we grew apart. If I think about

my children and grandchildren I think the world will be seeing a

barriers coming down. The idea that we erect barriers between part of

the UK... So you feel strongly about it? I do. A will there be a

single Labour at figure who leads the campaign? The there'll be lots

of Labour figures. We have a new lead in Scotland, she is the person

who will lead the campaign and is a very good leader and will make an

eloquent and good case for the UK. She should English voters have a

saying in this? In the end it will be a matter for voters in Scotland.

But I think we always need to look at ways in which we can look at

devolution in England. criticism that came from Lord last

man and other people who had been close to you -- Maurice Glasman.

hanker for an elected House of Lords after Maurice Glasman, but

there we go. His 2012 a year you say yes, I will do better. This is

part of being a leader of the opposition. You get criticism,

advice, it is what happens. I know who will I am and where we are

going... But I am asking if you listen to the criticism? You always

listen to it but let me just say, you have been saying on this

programme Ed Miliband has been identifying matters that -- issues

that matter to people, but there is something deeper here, we are

changing the party. Changes a hard process. We lost touch with people,

we went had and listen to to them, about the squeeze in their living

standards, we were too soft on the vested interests. This week we have

been talking about how we will deal with issues around fiscal

credibility and show that Labour can deliver in a different way. It

is a process of change. We're winning the battle of ideas. It is

not often you say that about an opposition. Why is David Cameron...

By the way, he can't deliver on my agenda, but why is he coming onto

my ground because he knows I am talking about the right issues and

those that matter. That gives me confidence. There is one thing that

has perhaps prevented people accepting that Labour has a right

to talk about economic competence, which has been the reluctance to

say anything about overspending in the Labour years. The model was the

city makes all this money and Labour's job is to take some of

that money and redistribute it into public spending in the welfare

state. And I am proud of what we do. It is an economic model which

failed. I would put it there for me. I would say we got it wrong on some

issues like bank regulation and we did not build a diverse enough

economy. An unbalanced economy taking money in the boom years is a

failure. I acknowledge we did not do enough... Did you spend too

much? No. Lehmann Brothers went bust, there was not to do with

Labour over spending, it was a global financial crisis.

consequence was the unwinding of an unbalanced economy. It is

fundamental. The should have built a more balanced economy. I have

said it on many occasions. -- we should have. And the small example

of the predatory capitalism that you do not like, a small example is

the breast implants situation at the moment. What would you do about

it? I express great sympathy for all of the women who have been

affected by this. I think Andrew Lansley is right to say the

companies have a moral obligation but now that the companies are not

acting on that, some of them, we cannot leave it at that. I want to

initiate cross-party discussion about how we can not only changed

the law for the future but how we can make a difference now to the

women affected, either through legislation or other means to force

the as companies to face up to their responsibilities. We must

leave no stone unturned in making this company's be held to account.

That is what I want to see. Talking about your own party, many people

are upset by the other aspect of the change this week which was the

idea they should not be pay increases for sector -- public

sector workers and others because of the perilous situation and the

importance of maintaining employment as high as it can be

maintained. Some of the trade union leaders have described it as being

a suicide note, many have expressed extreme anger about this. It is a

hard choice but when you are faced with a choice between jobs,

protecting jobs, or saying the money goes into pay rises, it is

There are no easy choices in government. The choices for the

next Labour government will be harder than those of the past. It

is right that we say we have to prioritise employment. Most people

watching this programme, some of whom will be in the private sector

facing difficult situations on pay. Next time there is a governor

proposal to cut something or reduce something and you stand up and

oppose it, the ministers will be able to say but you would not

reverse it, would you? Went that create a sense of hopelessness? --

will that not. No because what we are doing now will be different. We

would not be cutting as far and fast and we would make different

choices. I believe we can show people there can always be hope

that even in tough times you can make different choices for a young

people, for people seeing living standard squeeze, to tackle the

vested interests David Cameron will not tackle. That is what we are

about, realism and hope. That is a combination that helps Labour win

elections. In a year, you have to be in a different position. Will

that be the case because the world has changed, or because Ed Miliband

has changed? I am not a forecast of. That is not what the leadership

business is about, it is about setting out what you believe,

winning the battle of ideas, showing people who understand their

lives and you can make a difference to them. That is what Labour is

doing under my leadership and what we will carry on doing. In the year

ahead you have to do something different from what you did in the

year gone? We will be developing our policy, showing how we can

deliver in tough times. yourself? I will be doing that, too.

I was in my constituency on Friday talking to people, nobody raised

the polls, they raced what was happening in their lives, the fate

of young people, people worried about the NHS. That is the best way

to succeed as a political party. Going back to the well-known words

you need more dynamism and a clearer strategy and if you do not

have those, you will be in the same position in the year. I am clear

about who why am, what a stand for and what we want to take this

country. -- hooked I am. -- who I am, or what I am. The question is

do you stay the course? It is the right thing to do for the country.

Now the news headlines... There are reports that a third person has

been found alive on the capsized Italian cruise ship. Last night a

Korean couple on their honeymoon were found alive. 24 hours -- found

a live 24 hours after it ran aground. Ed Miliband has told this

programme that he listens to criticism of his leadership, saying

it was part of the job of being Labour leader. But he said he was

determined to change the party and that would be a hard process. He

admitted that while it was in power Labour had lost touch and been too

soft on vested interests. The next news is at midday. Back to you...

new political programme starts this weekend of BBC 1, it inhabits the

or Sunday lunchtime slot. Andrew Neil presents Sunday politics.

Politics. We will have Michael Gove, we are asking how you will improve

schools. Alistair Darling will talk about Scotland and the New Labour

economic policy, and we will have a head-to-head debate between Labour

and the Scottish nationalists on Scottish independence. Sounds

fascinating. This is a new show, how we differ from what came

before? We will try a different approach to interviews, we will

news new technology -- use new technology to put inconvenient

quote up on the screen and see how people react to that. We will

strive to be at least the second best programme on a Sunday! Glad to

What would you like to ask about this huge issue of Scotland?

pros and cons? I think in the end this must not become an argument

between the UK parliament and the Scottish government, or between

Alex Salmond and David Cameron, that is part of the danger in what

has happened over the last week. It is about the substance and what

matters to the people of Scotland. I think we benefit so much as a

country from our shared history and interests and I passionately

believe we have to protect that. People have used about Alex Salmond

but I think it is bigger than that. Some things are even bigger than