22/01/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Worrying news about parliament. For once, not the MPs

themselves. Bud the building. The clock tower with Big Ben is now

leaning by 18 inches. And there's a meeting tomorrow looking at radical

options, including selling the building and moving parliament to

another site. In the Mail on Sunday, an insider calls the biddable

building an elegant disaster sinking into the mud. In the Sunday

Times, one MP involved, Labour's Tom Docherty tries to sound

reassuring. And I would say, fails. He says, "The House of Commons

authorities would be surprised if the clock tower fell into the

Thames any time soon." It's all long term but it's a story I'd have

expected to read on the front page. Perhaps our newspaper reviewers

this morning will have a view. They are both MPs. The Conservative Anna

Soubry. And the former Labour Cabinet Minister Peter Hain. Now a

memoirist as well. But we're going to be talking a lot this morning

about which way the coalition, rather than the clock tower, is

leaning. In these difficult economic times, we keep hearing

about fairness. But what does it mean? The Sunday Telegraph here

suggests the Liberal Democrats are pushing the idea of a tax on homes

worth more than �2 million. Good idea? Bad idea? Nick Clegg, the

deputy prime minister, joins me this morning to talk about the rich

and the poor, bankers, and the young unemployed. As the Lords

prepares to vote on tough welfare changes, is this really a fairer

country? As the Arab League meets to discuss the ongoing crisis in

Syria, where there have been reports of army deserters briefly

seizing one town, I'll be joined live by our Middle East Editor,

Jeremy Bowen, who's managed to get into Damascus. And I'll be

discussing the world financial crisis as seen by Hollywood. Its

treatment of Wall Street has frequently shown admiration for the

Masters of the Universe. Those big bankers with giant egos and

salaries to match. All that has changed with what many are calling

the best film about the financial meltdown. I'll be talking later to

Jeremy Irons, one of the villains of Margin Call, and one of our

finest actors. And speaking of stars, here's a new one.

# I wait with good intentions... There will be music from a singer-

songwriter tipped for greatness. The woman who everyone from music

critics to Madonna have hailed as a key talent of 2012, Emili Sande.

But before all of that, the news Good morning. The government's

controversial plans to reform the NHS in England are expected to come

in for criticism this week in a report by senior MPs. The Commons

Health Select Committee, which is led by a Conservative and has a

majority of coalition MPs, is likely to attack Health Secretary

Andrew Lansley's strategy of trying to save billions of pounds while

attempting to carry out a major overhaul of the service.

The battle to find a Republican presidential candidate in the

United States has been turned upside down, after Newt Gingrich

triumphed in the key South Carolina primary. The former Speaker of the

House of Representatives pulled off a surprise victory over one time

frontrunner Mitt Romney. We proved here in South Carolina at that

people power with the right ideas be to big money and we are going to

prove it again in Florida. Thank you and good luck.

Here, the Communities Secretary, Eric Pickles, says councillors have

a moral duty to sign up to the Government's council tax freeze,

and he's offering them funding to do so. Mr Pickles says more than

140 local authorities in England have so far agreed not to put up

bills. But a number of councils have rejected the offer, saying

they need to protect services after government budget cuts.

Activists in Syria say army deserters took control of much of

the Damascus suburb of Douma last night after hours of fierce

fighting. It was the first time the rebels had attempted such a large-

scale operation. They were later reported to have withdrawn from the

area, fearing a heavy reprisal attack from the Syrian security

forces. Arab League foreign ministers are meeting in Cairo this

morning to decide whether to continue with their monitoring

mission in Syria. A 16-year-old Dutch girl, Laura

Dekker, has become the youngest person to sail round the world

single-handed. Laura arrived back in the Caribbean island of Saint

Maarten a year and a day after she set sail in her boat, the Guppy.

The Dutch authorities had tried to block her attempt arguing she was

too young but she went to court to overturn their decision. Of course

there were moments I was, what the hell am I doing out here? But I

never wanted to stop. It's a dream and they wanted to do it.

That's all from me for now. I'll be back just before ten o'clock with

the headlines. Andrew. Thank you, Susanna. The Arab League

is convening a crisis meeting today to discuss the worsening situation

in Syria where its mission has hardly checked the violence. And,

as we heard in the news, there have been overnight reports of army

deserters seizing a town. I'm joined now from the capital,

Damascus, by our Middle East Editor, Jeremy Bowen. Jeremy, thanks for

joining us. You are in Damascus now. Can I start by asking what the mood

is? The Arab League meeting is tomorrow and they seem to have

achieved virtually nothing in this mission. The mood, first of all, if

you just look down the main street just outside this television studio,

you will see people going about their business, and it may look

normal, but clearly, it's not normal here because protests go on

on a regular basis. You heard about what was happening in Douma, not

very far from here at all, last night. There is a great deal of

opposition activity around Damascus. That's absolutely for certain. A

town half-an-hour's drive up from here, it is in the hands of

protesters because the army has pulled out of it. The regime here

retains a bedrock of support and it retains a lot of military power as

well. I suppose part of the question, is this a regime are

clamping down on protests or is this a civil war now? I think there

are moments when fighting goes on where you could say in a particular

place their his war fighting happening. It is low level because

the rebels are armed with low-grade weapons. There is a fear of civil

war and that one think people from the Arab League has been talking

about as a danger. In their meeting in Cairo, I will be surprised if

they do not offer to extend their monitoring mission here because in

the absence of any sick of a good activity elsewhere, especially the

Security Council, which is divided on the future of President al-Assad,

it's the only game in town. Some protesters would say the presence

of the monitors, why didn't stop violence, certainly reduced it.

Would you argue that one of President al-Assad a's main

strengths is widespread fear about what may happen in Syria if he is

toppled? I think everybody here has fears about the future. This is not

like Libya, where it's quite a homogenous country in terms of the

kinds of people there. It is quite diverse, lots of different or

religious, ethnic groups, and there is a genuine fear of a sectarian

civil war, as a nightmare part of the future. I think people are

conscious of that but at the moment it's very much winner-takes-all.

From the perceptions of both sides. The regime says, we must hang on at

all cost. The protesters say, it's too late to stop, we are continuing

until regime falls off there is an absence of a political process to

try to find some kind of common way forward. Perhaps there is not a

common way forward here. Jeremy, thank you very much indeed from

Damascus. Now, on the front pages today. That interesting health

story we mentioned in the news is on the front page of the Observer.

Scotland on Sunday has Simon Hughes, the Lib Dem deputy leader, calling

for an English parliament. Interesting. Another story, Chris

Huhne accuses Number Ten of dirty- tricks boss of that is leaking

against him. The Mail on Sunday, terror link pilot accuses airline

of the racism. This is a story where it is impossible to say what

the airline is, or of the name of the pilot. And finally, the Sunday

Telegraph, new tax plan for the wealthy, the proposed two million-

pound mansion tax. And with me to review the papers are Anna Soubry

and Peter Hain. Thank you for joining us. We will start with a

health story. The Observer is leading on this critical party

report on health, basically saying this reorganisation is a shambles,

it's costing �3 billion, nurses are being sacked. I think it is the

Achilles heel of this Government. The health service being privatised,

and people not getting essential prescriptions and treatment, as a

doctor only this week confessed to. You know jolly well it does not

mean the NHS is going to get privatise two. No, one of the

problems with this debate is this lack of proper information and a

spin which is not acceptable for the it's quite complicated and

difficult to understand. The very expensive. We could argue about

that. The complexity of it, in some ways it is but on the other hand,

if you really look into what it's doing, it is abolishing the P C Ts

who are accountable to no one. It's the difficulty of bringing in these

changes at the same time that we are having to make �20 billion of

savings, which is something introduced by the last government

at the same time, but it's about the abolition of the PC Ts, and

pudding that lack of accountability down to what we now call GPs and

nurses, right at the level at the Why are the Royal Colleges, nurses,

midwives, doctors, opposed to it? It's not as simple as that. In my

constituency, my GP consortia has always been well up for this and

when I talked to the City Hospital, who are in a trusted together, what

they see to me is it going to be difficult. We are doing it to make

sure we have a NHS but the purpose. I'm going to talk more about this

with a Nick Clegg. Let's move on to the next story. It is, I think...

Bishops have. And other face leaders. Another story is

identified. Bishops at war with the coalition, allegedly bought it I

have no difficulty with them taking a view on any issue. They are

rightly to be concerned about poverty also where I think they

have got it terribly wrong, they don't understand that the benefit

cap of 26,000, is entirely fair, and it's about trying to move

people out of poverty. The Iain Duncan-Smith same, they are

forgetting the relatively poor families are paying taxes to fund

this. And for people to live in homes they could only imagine in my

dreams of being able to live in. I don't think the bishops have

understood what this is about. Many of us up, to politics because we

care passionately about people who live in deprivation. We want to

change that and make everybody's lives better put up it's just the

ways that we do it. The bishops are saying this will cause massive

homelessness. I don't accept that. Let's move on to another story. Ed

Miliband, some terrible polls for him. Low percentages or that the

Conservative jumping ahead. That polls suggest David Miliband would

be a better leader. There's many polls putting the Tories ahead,

another one pudding is a few points ahead. What matters is in the

polling booth, -- another one putting us ahead. David Cameron was

as unpopular in the ratings, if more so, in his first year of his

leadership of the opposition, because it's a tough job. I think

he will come through this and his message is actually getting great

attraction. The government is trying to clamber on to his

territory. Your next story? let's move on quickly from that,

shall we? We have two one of the attitude MPs reviewing the paper's

author let's go back to the newspapers. Moving swiftly on,

America. We thought Mitt Romney was going to take it but Newt Gingrich

took it. Even though his ex-wife went for him in public.

absolutely went for it, and said, how do you, it's disgraceful, and

clearly, that resonated. Maybe it's something we can learn from, to

take things on the nose. What he did, he said, this is the liberal

media. They are seizing on this issue to attack me because I'm a

right of centre voice of the he kind of did that but said, you're

giving credibility for something not an issue in this campaign.

about various issues of the let's take it away from the personal. I

thought was interesting. Also, he is to the right of Mitt Romney, and

there is an evangelical right wing. They wouldn't have approved of his

private life and all that, but they still voted for him perhaps because

Mitt Romney was a Mormon. It's very Islamists in Nigeria and an

atrocious set of explosions in northern Nigeria yesterday. It is

really worrying. It says 140 people were killed in Kano by the militant

Islam group Boko Haram. There's a division in Nigeria between the

Muslims in the north mainly and the Christians in the south. It's the

biggest population in Africa, 160 million. It has been doing some

innovative stuff diplomatically on Syria and Libya, in contrast to my

old friend South Africa. Of course. You were African Minister but you

were many other things. There's a great picture. This is marvellous

stuff. This is you being slung between police officers like a sack

of potatoes. Carried out of 10 Downing Street actually. In the

days when you were a proper leftie, Peter. In the days when there were

no security gates. And this is part of your memoir that you've just

produced. It is, yes. And these early days. Extraordinary things

happened to you. Hu a bomb, you were -- hu a bomb, you were nearly

blown up by a bomb that was sent to your house? I had a letter bomb

sent to my house. There was a technical fault in it or I wouldn't

be here. And he an extraordinary bank theft trial. Which I remember

so well. It is pretty clear that you were set up, that somebody that

looked quite like you grabbed money from a bank and ran around the

corner. You were innocently driving along and were nabbed. Writing if

book has been interesting. It was so surreal, you couldn't imagine it

was happening to you. It tell as story of being an outsider like

that and becoming an insider. were a real hate figure, a real

outsider. Now you are respectable and suited. I don't know about that.

Looking at the activists today, the Stop the City people and so on, is

there part of thaw says yes, go you, I'm on your side? Yes, there is.

When the Occupy people did, that I identified with them. In Government

I was always sympathetic, even if I didn't agree, with protesters,

because I had been there. Who knows, maybe they are right. Anna, another

story from you. This caught me, the Mail on Sunday, about the European

Court of human rates. Whilst I believe in a European Court of

human rates, the PM is going over to Strasbourg. One of the things he

is going to bring up with them is the fact that they need to take

into account that not every country is the same. They should reflect

more public opinion. So, for example, it might be that in one

country you don't have a problem with the level, some would say

intrusion, others would say exposure, of people's private lives

or public live if they are a public figure. Whereas in another country

they would take a different view. You can't have uniform ti, which is

one of the problems. You can -- uniformity, which is one of the

problems. The problem with the court at the moment is it takes too

much of an overblanket on everybody. We have a brilliant House of Lords,

a wonderful Court of Appeal, which does all the right things. Too much

is going to European level? much is going there. It doesn't

take into account that we tend to get things right in this country.

I'm not sure we always do. Sometimes things go there because

we don't get things right. Die agree with if Prime Minister that

the Strasbourg judges meddle far too much. They do. And they don't

take account of different things in different countries. We are at one

on that. We have to talk about this extraordinary Big Ben story. I

thought it is not an April fool is it? This is a Real Story. Our

wonderful Houses of Parliament are falling into the river. Apparently

it is. I was leader of the Commons once and got an insight into this

amazing, antiquated place. They say lit cost about �1 billion to deal

with this. They are looking to the Russians and the Chinese to bail us

out possibly. Says one report. There is another suggestion that

the Speaker might be particularly interested, because Big Ben leens

over his apartment and offices. mean he's at risk of falling into

the Thames? I don't know about that. It is quite serious. This is one of

the most beautiful buildings in the world, I think. It is. And if it is

right, it is horrendous. On the other hand these things are often

overexaggerated. Let's hope so. Indeed. There's a parking story

Anna? This is a story about the number of cities which are

introducing Sunday parking charges. It is something close to my

constituency in Nottingham, where they've introduced parking charges

on a Sunday. That affects my constituents who want to do things

like go to church and feel pickled off when they have to pay. Pickled

off, that's a good expression. I haven't heard that one before.

are less than happy when they are charged effectively to go to church

or go shopping on a Sunday. Our cities and towns have to get a grip

on this. On the one hand you can't see people should go and shop, but

then penalise people for parking in car parks which invariably the

council owns. Westminster council is doing that as well. Westminster

council have dropped their plans and I wish my Borough Council would

revisit our car parking charges, because they are not helping the

things we want to do. It is this minutiae which touches on the

livelys of real people. From minutiae to a really important

issue, I knew if we had Peter Hain on the sofa he would want to raise

the Pippa Middleton story, and so he has. This great story in the

Mail on Sunday about when Kate was an elf and Pippa was an imp.

Apparently Kate earned special prizes for toy making, cooking and

house orderly badges. Were you a Brownie? I didn't get any badges. I

joined the Guides and they threw me out. My sons were in if Woodcraft

folk. They learned to cook lentils. On to the weather. It was blustery

yesterday in London but it is fairly mild. Temperatures haven't

dipped to what we were expecting. What can we expect for the rest of

What can we expect for the rest of the day? Over to Laura Tobin. It is

relatively mild outside but breezy conditions will make it feel

perhaps a little chilly. We had a weather front this morning pushing

through northern England and Scotland. It brought a spell of

snow for a time. As it clears, the skies look set to brighten. Gusty

winds will continue to push the weather front to the east and feed

showers into north western areas. Frequent showers into western

Scotland, mostly of rank but sleet and snow across the hills.

Sheltered even Scotland and north- east England will be dry but gusty

winds of up to 50 mph. North-west England into the Midlands, a few

showers here. Most of them light and well scattered. A mild 11

degrees today in London with that north-westerly breeze.Ed to south-

west of England, perhaps patchy cloud around, but by and large it

is looking dry. A dry afternoon in Wales. The far nearest perhaps

picking up one or two scattered showers. Northern Ireland, set fair

this afternoon. Bright and breezy. Highs of 8.

Into Monday, it is looking drier and brighter. A better chance of

sunshine. Lighter winds but a chilly start. Make the most of the

beautiful sunshine on Monday, because by Tuesday it is turning

because by Tuesday it is turning much wetter. Back to you, Andrew.

We will, Laura. Now, few actors are as skilled as

Jeremy Irons when it comes to exploring the dark side of human

nature. Ever since his Oscar- winning performance in Reversal Of

Fortune, he's often played characters who reek of brimstone.

In the hit TV series The Borgias, he steals scenes as a hypnotic Pope.

In cinemas now, Jeremy Irons' new film, Margin Call, has been getting

cracking reviews. His character, a billionaire boss, doesn't quite

practise what you'd call responsible capitalism when his

company's fortunes begin to plunge. That loss would be greater than the

current market capitalisation of this entire company. So. What you

are telling me is that music is about to stop and we are going to

be left holding the biggest beg of odorous excrement ever assembled in

the history of capitalism? Jeremy, that bag is worthless stock that

the bank that your character is about to unload to sell on to lots

of unsuspecting banks and clients all around the world at that

moment? Yes. To try to keep his... This is a CEO of a huge company and

he's trying to keep the company afloat. The junk bonds in effect.

Yes, but bonds that could improve. So I'm saying to the buyer, this is

a risk. Not a great risk but it's a risk. Yes. And this film shot

relatively quickly. In fact in the offices of a defunct hedge fund in

the middle of New York? Correct, just off broad way. One of the

reasons we were able to make it relatively quickly is most of it

happens on one set. I think I shot for three days. Nevertheless it is

a film which has had amazing success in America. Which is a way

of letting the audience understand how this massive mess-up happened.

Yes. And it is beautifully timed, of course, but it's also a film

which seems to me to get underneath the skin of some of this. Some

fascinating discussions about who is really to blame. That's right.

Because we've made the bankers the scapegoats. Indeed some bankers

were extremely irresponsible with our money, but banking itself can

work I think if it is regulated. Everybody is greedy. We went

through I think an amazing 15 years where certainly I watched and I

thought, this is not possible, this cannot work. I remember my

financier saying no, this is the way it works. Capitalism runs on

death. That's healthy. Everyone can have bigger houses, everyone can

have more... There's a wonderful moment when you are talking to

Kevin Spacey's character, who if I may say so is the slightly more

decent figure in the office. When did you start feeling so sorry for

yourself? It's unbearable. So you think we might have put a few

people out of business today. And it is all for nought. But you've

been doing that every day for almost 40 years, Sam. And if this

is all for nought, so is everything out there. It's just money. It's

made up. Pieces of paper with pictures on it so we don't have to

kill each other just to get something to eat. And you go

through all the financial crises that have happened, the cycles.

Making this, did you come away feeling more sympathetic for the

moral dilemma that some of the bankers were involved in, or did

you feel angrier? I think I came away feeling angrier. I read the

big short which educated me into that situation. I just felt we had

let it run away in the most irresponsible way. I think three of

us are to blame - the Government, banking, and we are to blame. We

enjoyed living on interest-free credit, on our cards, please borrow

more money, and we allowed ourselves to get into a sort of

consumer frenzy. Yes. This belief that buying makes us happier, which

we are told our economy demands. Yes. We have to grow our economy 2%

every year or whatever. This is not physically possible. We have a

world of finite resources. We don't need all this stuff, whether it be

new motor cars or more clothes. I believe we have to find a way to

run our economy so that it is balanced, so that it is level.

Spread out the money a bit and stop this wild consumer frenzy. And now

we hear politicians saying, if we can get people buying again we'll

be alright. What! Buying again is what got introduce this state. We

have to completely readdress how we run our finances. This is a

fascinating moment of change or failure to change for our whole

society. It's a huge revolution we are going through. Talking of

excess and consumer behaviour, The Borgias. There are actors who say I

just do the television to keep myself in money, films that I care

about, but you are proud of The Borgias aren't you? I am. This is

basically an American show, Show Time. What we are seeing in

American is television series have taken over from what I call the

artistic films that I used to make, the films with a moderate budget.

No longer are able to get financed. That work and the factors who

worked this those, Dustin Hoffman is about to open in a new series in

America. We are all doing it because that's where the writing is

And very briefly, you also doing Henry the 4th for the BBC. They are

doing Richard the second, Henry the 4th, and Henry the Fifth, a

wonderful historical cycle, and I'm delighted to have a go at it.

Fabulous. We hope to see you again at the end of the show but for now,

thank you very much indeed. Let's just get a glimpse of Jeremy Irons

as Pope Alexander in the Borgias. It's back on Sky Atlantic later

this year. I need your further assurances, he

and another cousin, the Duke of Milan, will be constant in their

support for our papacy. We have merged our fortunes with our name.

The consequence of that trust been betrayed would be most severe.

rather stern as a warning about trust from the Pope there. And I'm

joined now by the Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the Liberal

Democrats, Nick Clegg. Thank you for joining us. In your new year

message you talk about fairness. And the importance of building a

fare economy. What is it about this 500 and benefit which is fair,

being discussed tomorrow in the House of Lords? There's a lot of

quite poor families and young people who were going to be put

into a very difficult situation. The central argument, which I fully

support completely, is to say, it can't be fair that you can be

earning more on benefits than someone going out earning �35,000,

the equivalent if you're to go out and work. Of course we need to look

at a transitional arrangements. Iain Duncan-Smith has made it clear

we need to do that. The place of children born innocently into

another set of rules, but the basic principle, 500 pound Cup, -- cap,

so you can't, on benefits, in more than you would if you worked. That

has got to be a simple principle most people would subscribe to

Can you do more as a government for a very large number of young people

caught in this and will be in difficulty? This apocalyptic

predictions been made about what will happen, but I don't agree with.

Some coming from the Department of work and pensions. The we don't

recognise this also they will not be mass homelessness. We won't

allow that to happen. We are saying, in general terms, about the welfare

system, under Labour, it's an important point, because the

country as a whole must feel they can support a welfare system upon

which, by the way, if you include pensions, we have spent �200

billion, which everyone believes is fair. The cap is crucial for so

increasing the incentive to work. Could you not put a child benefit

in that? A if you did that, it wouldn't make much sense to have a

cup at all. Highly unlikely we would do that. It wouldn't make

much sense bought up Iain Duncan- Smith has said we will look at the

transitional arrangements are also a lot of it has not been resolved

yet, but the central principle, you can't on benefits in more money

than you would if you went out and earned �35,000 before tax, is one

that most people recognise as a good thing in the context of a very

major reform of welfare which we support. We believe it is better to

give people incentives to work and work should always pay. What would

have saved for the legacy of the coalition if, at the next election,

we still have more than one million young people unemployed? Many of

them having their entire lives ruined because they were never had

the experience of work and they will be wasted. It's the biggest

issue which faces as as a society, and by the way, one which confronts

all developed economies in this difficult time. There have been

long-term youth unemployment for some time, remorselessly increasing

since the 2004. Even in the good times, there was a problem that

employers were passing of the young people in favour of others.

have to do more about it than you are doing at the moment. Yes, but

in November, I announced from April this year we are starting a youth

contract, �1 billion we have put towards it, which gives every

single 18-24-year-old the opportunity to learn. By way of

comparison, Labour's own plans for job creation for only 90,000

youngsters. We will benefit close to half a million. It is a very

ambitious programme to dip every single 18-24-year-old the chance to

undertake work experience or subsidised employment or an

apprenticeship. It's a huge issue. There will be lower youth

unemployment by the time of the next election as a result of this?

We are straining every sinew to make sure we get people out of this

debilitating condition where they are sitting at home, sending out

application forms, not getting replies, because of that long term

scarring effect on them... And you, as that coalition government will

have failed at the next election if you haven't got unemployment down.

The it's a collective failure. I'm not making a numerical predictions.

What I'm saying to you, it is something I pushed through

government, we are implementing the most ambitious programme to deal

with this. Far more ambitious than the opposition. There is, as you

know, a lot of criticism about the overall balance in the way these

things are funded. The IFS, which is hardly a wild left-wing body,

says the Budget changes overall where a take away from families

with children and a giveaway to people further up the income scale.

I challenge you, this is not fair. One of the building blocks of

building a fare economy, out of the rubble we inherited because of a

crash, firstly it is the first thing to do to try to clear the

debts for the next generation so they don't have to pay off our

debts. Otherwise you unfairly impose a burden on the next

generation. Secondly, you have got to rebalance the economy away from

London, sought out the banking system and executive pay. The third

thing, where I think we need to be bolder, make sure the tax system is

fair and make sure we really to alleviate the burden of taxation.

What is fair about the IFS analysis? It ignores the fact that

we have a policy of a people premium, �2.5 billion of additional

money to help children in deprived areas for the they were talking but

the overall effect of tax and benefit changes. That's not the way

people live their lives. That analysis overlooked the fact that

for the first time ever, every two year-old from every deprived family

in this country will receive 15 hours of free pre-school support

for the you should ignore these things. These are major changes.

This issue of promoting fairness at a time of austerity is the big

question facing every party, not just in Britain but across the

developed world, and what is so extraordinary, Labour, it has

completely ducked out of that debate. It's not offering anything

to millions of people in the centre ground of Britain, who want

politicians who combine credibility on the economy and compassion and

fairness. Fairness at the other end of the scale, storied today that

the mansion tax, on houses worth more than �2 million, is being

seriously considered. We thought the Conservatives would say no to

this. Is it a real goer now? newspapers have said this morning,

they had restated the obvious, something in the Lib Dem manifesto,

we think it part of a patchwork measures which would, over time,

make the tax system fair, because it would be asking people with

considerable wealth to make a greater contribution and then allow

us to use the money, this is the key but, by the way, we are not

interested in wealth taxes for the hell of it, but we want to generate

the revenue so we can alleviate taxes. OK, my question is different.

Is this the real question it will it happen? Are you winning over

Conservative supporters to support this? I think we are winning the

argument that we need to be bolder on making the tax system fairer. On

that, I think there is a widespread recognition. Many people, hard-

working families, have had to face higher inflation over the last year,

and are struggling to pay the weekly bills, and it's crucial that

what we put at the forefront of our effort is to make sure the tax

system works for them for so I want this government to be absolutely

rooted in the central ground on that side of hard-working families

and that should be reflected in the tax system. It shouldn't be

constantly catering for a very small fraction of people at the top

but should be standing up for the vast majority. In the context of

that, we own the Royal Bank of Scotland, and, given that, can you

ensure that it took executive will not get a one. Million pound bonus

when the bank's performance is has been bad for the it was left up to

people watching this programme, me and you, we would not have bonuses

for state owned banks while they are being repaired. In a

spectacular example of irresponsible capitalism, the last

government not only left to the banks get away with blue murder,

but then entered into contracts with them which allowed them to

continue to pay themselves large bonuses. I don't like it but we are

constrained by those contractual obligations. The this nothing you

can do to stop it? Yes, we are saying there is a strict limit on

the cash bonuses they can receive, �2,000 only. In RBS and other bank,

bonus board has got to be considerably lower than it was last

year thought of by the way, the Bank of England, the Financial

Services Authority are saying exactly the same thing because any

money which is that there should be used to repair the bank's balance

sheet. Let's be clear about this. If next week or the week after we

pick of a newspaper headline and it says Bank owned up to get �2

billion -- bank owner to get �2 million,... That is speculation.

There has been no decision on RBS bonuses. To be clear, if that

happened, you, as a government, can do nothing about it. No, you asking

me about a hypothetical outcome I don't believe there will arise

because we have been clear that, before those negotiations take

place, we want to see lower bonuses, more money put into repairing the

balance sheet, and much lower bonuses than last year. The you

would be outraged if that happened? The if there was no change in the

bonus behaviour last year compared to this year, but it won't happen.

Another big story today, it sounds like a blistering report from the

Health Select Committee about the What they are saying, these health

reforms are not worth it, they are diverting the NHS from the business

of making savings and improving patient care. Isn't this a reform

which simply isn't worth the cap? haven't seen the report. The report

suggests what they are focusing on, which is entirely legitimate, if

that interaction between the reforms and be �20 million worth of

savings which the last government insisted the NHS should make, they

seem to be floating this idea of greater integration between social

care and health care. Something I always believed was a good thing.

We can always do more, but firstly, we have gone a long way to allay

the concerns that people have about the original blueprint of the

reforms and said there would be no privatisation of the NHS by the

backdoor. We put competition back in its box. We made sure there is

accountability. People should not think the best way to cherish and

preserve everything we love about the NHS is somehow to freeze it.

And it will be OK. Having said that, let me turn it around. Given that

that all the royal colleges are against this, and virtually every

health expert is against these changes, the House of Lords at the

moment, what is so great, so important about this legislation

that it is worth spending so much political capital forcing it

The people, who should have a greater role in the NHS about you

and I should be people who know a thing or two about patients. That

seems to be a simple, common sense new reform. Give more authority

about how money sloshes around the system to people who know patients

best. That is the simple, animating force behind the reforms. Yes,

there's a lot of complexity. Of course there is controversy. No-one

likes change in something we all cherish and lover as much as the

NHS. The committee is led by a former Conservative Health

Secretary, are you not saying this will have to be looked at again.

Like all Select Committee reports, we will look at it. There's a

legitimate question about how you conduct reform when at the same

time you are making savings. Our view is that these reforms, by

making people on the front line more responsible for the use of the

money will help, not hinder it. are open to rethinking? Look, can I

only go by what I read in the papers. If one of the ideas is we

should seek to do more to integrate social care and healthcare I think

most people... The burden of this is they don't like the reforms, as

you no. We are reading different reports. Let's wait until we see

what the report says. No-one should believe we are helping the NHS by

sticking our head in the sand and saying no change. When you've got

an ageing population and increasing costs in medical procedures you

have to reform things, update things precisely to preserve what's

best about the NHS. Let's move on the other issues, if we may. Are

you against or in favour of a new airport for the South East?

totally unpersuaded by the evidence. I think we should take a common

sense, hard-headed look at the facts. I don't think we should as a

country decide to concrete over vast swathes of the Thames estuary

on a whim. Let's look at the problem. That's why we are going to

issue a document in March for consultation on people's views.

There is an issue about what we do with our airports, particularly in

the South East. We have four big airports around London, three of

which aren't even being used to capacity yet. Call me old-fashioned

but it seems to me you should look at things like that instead of

something which wouldn't be built for another decade-and-a-half.

you are opposed until you are persuaded otherwise? I am opposed.

Let's look at the facts and not simply lurch from one big project

to the next. If a member of the Government is charged with a

criminal offence, do they have to resign? Of course, that's a very

serious issue should that arise. I know you are alluding to Chris

Huhne. He is crystal clear he denies any wrongdoing. He said that

to me and publicly. I'm not going to provide a running commentary

without knowing what the CPS is going to do. One thing you could,

if I may say, provide a commentary on is whether somebody in the event

of being charged with a criminal offence they have to leave the

Government. I don't think the Ministerial Code says that in black

and white. Obviously the Cabinet Secretary is the arbiter of these

things, can provide advice to the Prime Minister and myself and

others would need to take a view. But we as a Government wants the

highest standards of probity to be in place in everything that is done

by Cabinet members. That's why I've increased dramatically the

transparency about what Cabinet members and members of the

Government do and who they meet and so on. You couldn't have a trial

going on and them being in Government at the same time, could

you? If you don't mind, anything I say will be wildly intered. Chris

Huhne denies wrongdoing and the wheels of justice should take their

own course. By the by, would you like to see David Laws back? Has he

done his time. I would like to see David back. It would be good for

the Government and for Britain. He's got one of the most amazing

minds in the Government. Do you agree with Simon Hughes? I don't.

Simon has had views on this. Do you think the English are

underrepresented in the system? When the central argument is about

the wisdom of wrenching Scotland out of the United Kingdom, let's

focus on that debate and get the SNP to provide basic answers to

some pretty basic... You would have thought for a party whose whole

sole purpose in life is to advocate independence they would be able to

provide information in on what it mean force defence, the currency.

There's a proposal floating around under which Britain would provide

more money for the IMF bail-out fund for the euro. Is that

something we ought to do as a country? We ought to and the

Chancellor was clear about this, we must always be strong supporters of

the IMF. It was linchpin, in many ways it was part of the creation of

the Bretton Woods system. A system of creating stability. So we will

contribute more if asked? We will always make a fair contribution

when the IMF shows those are necessary. Last time we spoke you

said you would have to work hard to make sure Britain is still inside

European tent. How is it going? Considerable effort has been put in

by me and the Prime Minister, working together, notwithstanding

what happened last year in early December, on the crucial question

of how you create growth and jobs, deepening the single market, making

it easier for businesses to work across borders in the European

Union. We are working hard and finding strong alliances with

Germany. I've had meetings and conversations with a range of

leaders of Governments, the Italians... Lots ofing and making

up? Hang on, it leads to important decisions at the next summit to

make sure we create more jobs and prosperity in Europe. Austerity

alone won't get Europe out of its difficulties. Nick Clegg, thank you.

Now over to Susanna for the news headlines.

The Government's controversial plans to reform the NHS in England

are expected to come in for criticism this week in a report by

senior MPs. The Commons Health Select Committee, which is led by a

Conservative and has a majority of coalition MPs, is likely to attack

Health Secretary Andrew Lansley's strategy of trying to save billions

of pounds while attempting to carry out a major overhaul of the service.

In America is battle to find a Republican presidential candidate

has been turned up side down as Newt Gingrich triumphed in the key

south Carolina primary. The former speaker of the House of

Representatives pulled off a surprise victory over the one-time

frontrunner Mitt Romney. Mr Gingrich won 40 % of the vote

compared with 28% for Mr Romney. That's all from me. The next news

on BBC One is at midday. Back to Andrew in a moment, but first a

look at what's coming up after this programme. We've been occupyed this

morning, members of the camp at St Paul's are here to debate do we

need to protect the right to proposal. And we'll talk about

abstinence in teenagers. Join us after the programme. We've got the

newest BRIT Award songwriter and name of the moment, Emeli Sande.

Hello. You grew up in a small village in Aberdeenshire. Yes.

your father is a teacher, so big on education. And you are a medical

neuroscientist, is that right? studied medicine in Glasgow

University. I did a degree in clinical neuroscience, so yeah.

not sure how that relates to song writing. You've written a lot of

songs for other people successfully and now you're hitting the top of

the charts with your new single, Heaven. You are going to tell us a

little bit about that? Yes, Heaven was released last year it was my

debut single, my breakthrough song which introduced me to the world. A

very special song to me and I'm looking forward to performing it.

It is quite rare to hear an acoustic version. We'll let you go

and prepare for that. Thank you Emeli.

Jeremy Irons, we were talking about responsible capitalism. You've made

this very good film. It looked extremely sinister. What would you

like to see Nick Clegg and his colleagues doing further to start

to right the imbalance that you were talking about? Everything you

are talking about seems right. I see you are slightly screwed with

these bonuses. I think people taking bonuss have to be very

careful, because there are an awful lot of people hurting at the bottom

of the chain. I think it is just bad manners last year that the

bonuses I thought were a slap in the face for a lot of people.

manners. It is a slap in the face to people working hard to get by.

Social unrest is a real problem when the economy's in the state it

is in. It doesn't help reading these figures, it really doesn't.

What about putting employee representatives on remuneration

that. Seems fair to a lot of people. On that proposal Vince Cable will

be saying something about nilt a few days. The principle of jetting

employees involved in what I call the John Lewis-style economy, the

old -liberal idea has really come back again. How did you make it

happen? Jeremy Irons is talking about the importance of making

these things happen. In the summer I hope to be able to announce

simple, practical steps about how more employees can have a share in

the company where is they work. is also a clever way to run an

economy. The young people, the people having trouble finding jobs,

they are the people with new ideas. We were asking the people who

created the situation to sort it out. But in fact we need the young

people with new ideas to look and see how we can create a balanced

economy in future. Thanks to all my guests. Join me

again next Sunday at 9.00am here on BBC One. Until then, we leave you

with Emeli Sande and Heaven. # Will you recognise me

# In the flashing lights # I try to keep my heart clean

# But I can't get it right # Will you recognise me

# When I'm lying on my back # Something's gone inside me

# And I can't get it back # Oh Heaven, oh Heaven

# I wait with good intentions # But the day, it always lasts too

long # Then I'm gone

# Oh, heaven, oh, heaven # I wait with good intentions

# But the day, it always lasts too Longbridge

Then I'm gone, then I'm gone # Then I'm gone

# Then I'm gone oh Heaven, oh Heaven

# I wait with good intentions # Oh Heaven, over Heaven

# I wait with good intentions # Oh Heaven, oh Heaven

# I wait with good intentions # You say that you will wait

# But the day it always lasts too long