29/01/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

This is BBC News, the headlines. Syria condemns the Arab League for

so suspending its monitoring mission. Damascus says the move is

designed to hasten foreign intervention. Five men are released

on bail after being questioned over allegations of illegal payments to

the police. Athens rejects a German proposal to appoint a European

Commissioner with the power to veto Greek budgets. And I'm at the

Let's start today with that friend of all things British, Nicolas

bottom of a canal lock, by rights I Sarkozy. Ahead of the French

should be under 20 feet of water election, the president says that

but they have drained it today to if he is beaten, I will completely

make maintenance repairs to the change my life. You will never hear

steepest of canal staircase in Britain. And live in Melbourne as

of me again. In any case, I am at Novak Djokovic and Rafael Nadal

the end and I am not afraid. Magnifique! Some will say the best

political promise of the year so far!

And joining me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers, the

lawyer and Labour peer Helena Kennedy, and consumer champion

Richard Lloyd, director of the Which? Organisation.

One way and another, fairness has been a theme of the week. From

Stephen Hester's bonus to Nick Clegg's call for a mansion tax, and

indeed to the government's welfare reforms, key parts of which were

rejected by the House of Lords. The architect of the changes, Iain

Duncan Smith, says it is the current system which is unfair on

the hard-working taxpayers who pay for it. Was he moved by the peers?

The Work and Pensions Secretary is with us.

And if we think austerity is biting hard here, then consider Greece,

where the situation is far worse but where the latest German idea

for an EU bureaucrat to take complete control of the Greek

economy, goodbye, democracy, has been condemned as the product of a

sick imagination. The Greek government spokesman Pantelis

Kapsis joins us from Athens. Also this morning, do you agree

that Scotland should be an independent country? Simple enough,

or is that question already loaded in favour of the nationalists? I

will be asking the First Minister and SNP leader, Alex Salmond, as he

lays out his terms for a referendum on Scotland's future. And I will be

talking to one of our most versatile actors of stage and

screen, David Haig, currently playing the mad monarch George III

to huge acclaim in London's West End. All that is coming up. But

first the news, with Susanna Reid. Good morning. The Syrian government

has condemned the Arab League for suspending its observer mission

because of the continuing violence in the country. Syria believes the

move is an attempt to encourage foreign intervention. An Arab

League delegation is preparing to travel to New York to try to

persuade the UN Security Council to endorse its peace plan, which would

see President Assad step aside. Our Middle East correspondent, Jon

Leyne, reports from Cairo. This was the scene in the Syrian

city of Homs. It has been a major centre of the uprising against the

President. But the opposition say it came under attack from

government forces. All part of a major upsurge in violence that has

put the very future of the Arab League monitoring mission in doubt.

In more if they teach you can see the Syrian security forces out on

the streets. The opposition say the Government has been trying to

regain control of major opposition strongholds like Homs. On the

opposition side, the self-styled free Serie A are may have become

more open and active. They are operating regularly even in suburbs

of the capital, Damascus. Some were in the middle is the Arab League

monitoring mission. They have been heavily criticised ever since they

moved into Syria in December. They were supposed to be part of a peace

plan but that was dead almost from the date was signed. The mission

was renewed for one month a week ago but soon after, six of the

country's pulled out. An Arab League delegation is heading to he

UN headquarters in New York to build pressure for the UN Security

Council to step into this process. There is continuing pressure on the

RBS Chief Executive, Stephen Hester, to turn down his �1 million share

bonus. The bank's chairman, Sir Philip Hampton, has handed back his

bonus of more than a million pounds in shares. David Cameron is

insisting it's up to Mr Hester to decide whether to reject the pay

out. A poll released today says most people favour a cap on bosses'

pay. Greece has rejected proposals for a

senior European Union official to take control of its budget as a

condition for receiving another international bailout. The idea was

put forward by Germany as a way of ensuring the Greek government makes

it a priority to pay off its debts. There's concern that Greece is

failing to meet its targets, through reform and austerity

measures. Five men arrested yesterday as part

of an investigation into illegal payments to police have been

released on bail. Four of them are current or former Sun journalists.

The fifth is a serving Metropolitan police officer. Searches have been

carried out at the homes of those arrested and at the offices of News

International in East London. Today marks 70 years since Desert

Island Discs was first broadcast on BBC Radio. The comedian Vic Oliver

was the first castaway to choose his eight discs. Margaret Thatcher,

George Michael, Yoko Ono and even Princess Margaret have featured on

the iconic programme. Later this morning Sir David Attenborough will

be sharing some of his favourite pieces of music. It's his fourth

time as a castaway. That's all from me for now. I'll be

back just before 10 o'clock with the headlines. Andrew.

Thanks. Tomorrow's EU summit will be a nail-biter and key to the

whole enterprise is the situation in Greece. The government there is

desperately trying to reschedule its debts, but as we heard in the

news, Greece has rejected German demands to hand over future Budget

decisions to EU officials. Pantelis Kapsis is the spokesman for the

Greek government, and he joins me now from Athens. Good morning.

Cannot ask first of all about the Government's general attitude to

this notion that there should be an EU commissioner who will

effectively take control? A budget commissioner? There is no need for

that. A decision was taken in October. We decided how the

execution of the Budget would take place and we will move on that

decision. The is no need for further measures. This is a

concrete proposal which will be discussed at the summit, that there

should be an EU Commissioner. not know if it will be discussed in

the summit, maybe in the Eurozone working group. If that was proposed,

seriously, what would the Greek government's reaction to it be?

There is no need for it. The execution of the Budget is the

responsibility of the Greek government. That would be one stage

too far in restraining or suppressing Greek democracy in

Europe you? It is a matter of national sovereignty, yes. It is

that simple and it is no need for such a measure. We have gone a long

way in reducing the deficit. Between the 4th year of recession,

the fall of the deficit has been quite big, so I think we're moving

in the right track. Would it be fair to say that pushing further

against Greek national sovereignty and its way would dangerously

inflame feelings in Greece? I know feelings are already running high.

Obviously there would be repercussions there, yes. One

should take that into account as well. I do not think there is a

need for such a measure. It is an idea that was floated. Can ask

about the other side of the discussions, which is that the

directors, including the private banks, have to write-off 50 % of

their debt, to get things moving again? Will that be agreed

tomorrow? The discussions have gone quite well and we're very close to

an agreement. Nobody can predict the future, but what is your sense

about it? What is the likelihood that Greece will be able to remain

within the EU know not slide towards the fault? We are doing our

best. We will have difficult discussions with the European Union

in the next couple of days. But at the end I hope we will find an

agreement which will safeguard the position of Greece in the Eurozone.

We will move in that direction. There is no other option for us and

we are determined to do whatever is needed. How confident are you that

you will get the 130 billion euros that you need. This government was

formed exactly in order to reach agreement. We are going to do our

as to safeguard this agreement. I may say so, you sound worried.

You sound unsure rather than massively optimistic at the moment.

I am not worried or insurer, but I do not want to make it sound that

it is uneasy agreement or that we do not have difficult issues ahead.

We are determined to do our as to solve them. Greek democracy is the

bottom line, more important than anything else in the end?

welfare of the Greek people and Greek democracy are obviously our

guideline, but this is in the context of the European Union and

European solidarity. These are not opposing ideas for. And finally, a

message for Germany? We will do whatever is needed to reach

agreement. Thank you for joining us. Now to our review of the papers.

And with me to review the papers are Helena Kennedy and Richard

Lloyd. He is the Sunday Telegraph, a

health warning over hip implants. It is about two bits of metal

grinding inside you which can poison your blood. The Mail on

Sunday has a Labour MP which says that smacking ban led to the riots.

The Independent On Sunday, 35.5 million and counting, a pleased

looking Stephen Hester. The pressure on him in the newspapers

is pretty heavy this morning. And the Observer, I despair of the lost

generation sparks EU leaders to action, a reference to the massive

numbers of young people have to do not have jobs.

Good morning. Were going to start with the bonus story. I think it is

the big story across the papers. This business of Stephen Hester

getting all this money. He was brought in when we had at

incredible annual loss, the biggest in British corporate history.

Instead of coming to the service of his nation, he comes in and was

given a 35.5 million pound package, according to the Independent On

Sunday. Now he's getting his million-pound bonus. In sales they

always say that a sweater is being sold for �9.99 pence rather than

�10. Dropping below the million pound markets meant to make us

think that he is not getting a large bonus. The Government is

talking about moral capitalism. David Cameron comes out as being

very feeble when it comes to the rich. It is the poor who are taking

the hit. This goes to the heart of the approach of government. What

has he delivered? Likud the results. There is a �26 million loss. Last

year it was announced that they have probably sold �850 million of

payment protection insurance. The bank is not doing much for us as

shareholders. We should also say that Philip Hampton, the RBS

chairman, has turned down a 1.4 million-pound bonus. He saw the

whirlwind coming towards him. George Osborne manages the part of

the Treasury that takes care of our shareholding. Surely they can get

more restrained. Let's turn to your first story, Richard. EU leaders

are going to try and save the lost generation. More than half of

Spain's young people are unemployed, around a quarter in the UK. It is

extraordinary. Leaders are saying that despite the austerity we are

going to find 25 billion euros to put into getting young people work

as soon as they have left College. A bit late in the day, I would say.

Looked at the double speech bread. -- Aluko at the double page spread.

We're hearing about young people speaking about the Experiences and

it is awful reading. A generation are going to feel very

disenfranchised and very angry. The next story, in the sun, it rumbles

on forever but it is a very important story about the state of

our nation. It is about journalism and corruption. It is about

corruption in our police force. A detective has been arrested over

accepting payments from newspapers. The four Sun journalists have been

You have yourself been around the law courts from time to time. Are

you surprised by this story? have always known that people got

paid, we always accepted that this kind of thing went on. We were not

happy about it. We always knew that there had been tip-offs. There were

ways in which payments were made. But this reaches right to the heart

of policing and Trust in policing. We have known it has gone on but

they have not cleaned up their act. And even at a senior level, that

business of people leaving the police, the revolving door, going

straight into well-paid jobs. Someone pointed out earlier that we

know the names of the newspaper journalists, but not the policeman.

Extraordinary. More and more it is going to emerge and it chips away

at people's Trust. Next quite a serious story on the front page of

the Sunday Telegraph. Another medical implants story. Thousands

of people have had these HIP in plants that could be leaking poison

into their bodies. The so-called metal on metal implants, it grinds

away and tiny bits of metal can come into your bloodstream. This

will be concerning people who have that other types of in plants as

well. There is now going to be a general thing about how safe the

medical devices are that we're getting put into our bodies. In a

very routine way, we now just consider it another operation.

is interesting, the story mentions a particular patient at risk, small

women! They are the most at risk. It does to a new why you have to

have good regulation around health. And if you try to cut away at that,

you end up getting defective things. Now a big foreign story. One of

that favourite places I have ever been to his Mexico City. This is a

shocker. It's this isn't the Sunday Telegraph and it is a shocking

photograph of people, basically, a summary justice. The drugs war in

Mexico now is an huge thing. should be said that some of the

drugs cartels have been murdering a policeman as well. The business of

drugs and the whole of Latin America and this corruption of

democracy and the effect on the rest of the world, we have not yet

got to grips with the issue of drugs. It is an interesting story.

But I don't think that this is a global problem. Young people

apparently been paid $85 by the Mafia took murder. In other ways,

these countries could become rich and highly successful nations but

there corrupted to their core by this business. Another domestic

story, and something which angers a lot of people. This is a campaign

by the Mail on Sunday. If you have a minor accident, suddenly you're

bombarded by claims management companies who say, we will take on

your case. In particular someone driving who is bumped gently by

another car, instantly claims whiplash. This puts up the cost of

insurance. I keep getting text messages from people saying that

they will get as many. They get so old your details by Europe

insurance company and that is the scandal there. This also feeds into

something bigger. What they feed into is the business off what

people describe as the compensation culture. The idea that everyone is

out there to get their bit, it is all about money. Of course it is

not free money because the rest of us pay higher. Almost every story

in the press is how hybrid capitalism has somehow made our

lives all about money. It has led to the most incredible ethical

problems for society over how we conduct ourselves, how the police

conduct themselves, journalists. One of the stories is about how

1000 top British which collects in the last two years, �135 billion

has been added to their wealth and they paid very little tax. Yet

everyone is very concerned about scroungers. We will talk about that

later on. Some of the stories I mentioned right at the beginning,

and the story about smacking. MP is saying it is a lack of

discipline at home that led to the situation of the riots. He said if

there was more of that there would be fewer young people on the

streets. I do hope he's being misquoted and that some small thing

he said in an interview has been made a lot off. Because the idea

that smacking led to that violence, cannot be further from the truth.

Almost out of time. You have a story here about Michelle Mone.

has a successful business and if Scotland becomes independent, she

will move across the border. I suggest she should wait and see.

I'm not so sure that the Scots will go for independence. But all these

people who say, I am going to leave like Andrew Lloyd Webber did if

Labour won the election, and they never do. I suspect that if Alex

Salmond won, he would lower corporation tax and she would find

it conducive to remain in Scotland. Thank you both very much indeed.

The union between England has Scotland has lasted for more than

300 years but in the next couple of years there will be a referendum

and the question will be, did you agree that Scotland should be an

independent country? But already the question itself is being hotly

debated. I'm joined from Aberdeen Show by the First Minister, Alex

Salmond. You are familiar with the slightly

cold weather here! The testing climate, indeed! Can I ask first of

all if you are concerned by a people like Michelle Mone who said

she would leave if Scotland becomes independent? I think it was Helena

Kennedy could put it very well. Michelle's concerns seems to be

predicated on the idea that we would put business tax up but in

fact our strategy is to lower at that. I think that will be helpful

to attract a lot of other business to Scotland. Michelle and she said

this the week before the elections in two dozen than seven in Scotland

which the SNP actually won. In terms of the future, in terms of

attracting new businesses to Scotland, it is important that we

have a competitive rate of corporation tax. That is our policy

and I'm sure when we explain that to Michelle Mone, she will be

encouraged. Let's turn to the question itself that you announced.

People who study referendums and polling say if you ask a question

like this, do you want Scotland to be independent, that tilts the

answers slightly towards yes. And many of your critics have said that

this is also about the break-up of the UK and that should be mentioned

in the question so the question would be something more like, do

you want Scotland to lead the United Kingdom. Do you think that

would be an equally fair question? Met me just to deal with this. One

of the greatest referendum experts in the world, from Cranfield

University, he said that the question is clear and

straightforward. The leader of the Scottish Conservatives has said

that for her the question is there and decisive. One expert from

Arizona I heard on the Today programme, a completely independent

person, but it turns out according to the press that he has been

advising the Conservative Party Central Office. But the questing,

do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country, yes or

no, I think to most of the viewers watching this programme, they would

agree that it seems to be a pretty fair and decisive question. Let me

come on to the other potential question, which is Scotland

remaining inside the UK but with fiscal autonomy. Would you on

balance the affair that question to be on the ballot paper or not?

will come to that in the second. You asked an interesting question,

the question of the United Kingdom. One of the things that I would

argue is of course the United Kingdom to an extent, it was formed

in 1600 and three. It is SNP policy to have the Queen as our head of

state. So that union, if you like, would be maintained. I think that

is a stumbling block about pushing for the question of the United

Kingdom when it is our policy to have the Queen as head of state.

So if the SNP won a referendum on independence, you would regard

Scotland as still being part of the United Kingdom? I'm just saying

that when you have a monarchical Union, the Queen would still be our

head of state. She would be Queen of Scotland, Queen of England. So

that is why I'm saying it is not a good idea to confuse the issue by

talking about the United Kingdom when what we are talking about his

political independence. In 200 countries around the world, they

have that in practice. Let me come to the question of fiscal

independence. David Cameron has made it clear that as prime

minister of the United Kingdom, he will insist on it being either

independence or of the status quo, not a middle option on the ballot

paper. I think that is strange, I read that in the newspapers today.

If you look at UK government's consultation paper, they asked

people in Scotland about the question or questions that they

would like to seek asked. It seems extraordinary that two weeks into a

consultation, the Prime Minister seems to have made up his mind

already. I would advise him to do what I'm going to do, to listen to

the voices that come forward, to see if there is a real demand for

having the question on fiscal autonomy and financial powers on

the ballot paper. If that demand is there I think it would only be

democratic to allow that forced to be heard. And honestly come and we

have the first poll in Scotland today, showing a majority for

independence for some time. I think some of that increase in support

for independence is a reaction against the kind of dictatorial

line we have been getting from Downing Street. I think the Prime

Minister would do well to listen to the voice of people and try to

conduct this debate with a bit more positivity. I think that would be

an approach which would go down well both north and south of the

border. I their full independence or fiscal autonomy, it would not

simply be a matter of Scotland succeeding, it would be added force,

of a kind. And that means both sides having a say. Would not be

reasonable in both cases for English voters to be able to vote

on this matter? I think there is agreement on the question of

independence. Across the world, if a nation intends to be independent,

that is something for that country itself. That is almost universally

accepted as a principle. Of course the House of Commons has a say in

the matter. But I think every UK prime minister since Harold Wilson

has accepted the principle that independence is a matter for the

Scots to determine. In terms of a question of physical autonomy,

Scotland has the right, of course that ringing declaration was

deserted by the Scottish parliament, the idea that the Scottish people

have that right. And then have so - - if Scotland pronounces that

opinion than the House of Commons has the right to represent the

people of England to take a view on that. But in terms of the debate

and how it is conducted, I think that most people in England take

two views on Scotland. One, that it could once to the Independent then

that is fair enough as long as it is standing on its own two feet.

And secondly, if they want to see the best possible relationship

between Scotland and England after independence, as the best of

The point I was making it is that the view of England is expressed

through the House of Commons. That is where the proposition made by

Scotland was expressed. In Scotland, there has been a tradition of the

sovereignty of the people, something I, and I suspect you,

have great respect for. I always respect the sovereignty of the

people. Can I ask about the people's sovereignty over their

currency? You would like to keep the pound and an independent

Scotland. Does that not mean that in effect monetary and fiscal

policy would be run from London? You would not have an independent

central bank? You would have the same subservient relationship to

fiscal power that for example, the Greeks arguing about when it comes

to the euro? There are 70 countries across the planet to her either in

formal or informal monetary unions. They are still independent

countries. I proposed a monetary union between Scotland and England

after independence because I think that would be sensible. UK

politicians gave up setting interest rates in 1977 when the

Bank of England became independent. But from an English point of view,

even though Scotland has the revenues from our share of North

Sea or oil and gas, it would provide some protection for the UK

balance of payments, which very few UK chancellors would want to turn

down. I have not even mentioned the �4 billion of exports from Scotch

whisky. For we will move briskly on. One final story which is all over

the papers today is Stephen Hester's bonus at RBS. Just short

of �1 million. What is your view on it? My view is when an organisation

is in the public sector and there has to be the discipline that

ordinary workers in the public sector are being asked to accept.

It is a real threat to economic recovery. Clearly the integrity of

public services depend on pay restraint in the public sector. It

is difficult to see how that can be maintained if we have this sort of

debates we have had over the last couple of days. I believe the

Westminster parties are culpable. Labour made this arrangement in the

first place and the Conservatives, after calling on the shareholders

of private companies to do something, are reluctant to do

something themselves. I think this question of inequality has to be

tackled if we are to protect economic recovery. Alex Salmond,

before the storm behind you actually arrives, I will say thank

you. If you want to know where that storm is coming from there are dark

rumours of a cold blast all the way from Russia. As it happens, this is

from Russia. As it happens, this is not good news. Let's take a look at

the weather. Good morning. It is cold. It is

becoming colder as we head through the week, but not as cold as it was

in Russia. It is a frosty start for many, but the complication in our

forecast comes with this weather front. It is now into Wales and

south-west England and when it reaches the cold air, it will turn

to snow. There is a weather warning for this. The weather front will

turn to snow as it advances East. For Northern Ireland, milder bear.

It will stay cloudy with rain all day long. For Scotland and the

north-west of England, cloud gatherers bringing scattered

showers. For the East of England, it is misty and foggy at the moment.

Those conditions slowed to improve, and a chilly day for many. For the

rush-hour across the south-west, we will have seven centimetres of snow

over the hills. Even some at lower levels. Ms Sting conditions slow to

clear. But it is chilly tomorrow clear. But it is chilly tomorrow

and it will get even colder as we head into the coming weeks.

It is more than 20 years since Alan Bennett's brilliant play The

Madness Of George III opened at the National Theatre. It was such a

success it became an Oscar-winning movie starring Nigel Hawthorne. Big

shoes to fill but one of our most versatile actors, David Tait, is

currently in the West End in that role. As a meditation on power and

politicking, David heed's monarch may be mad, but he is also wise.

Welcome. What can I say? This is one of

these iconic roles that people see through Nigel Hawthorne's

performance because of the movie. When you were first offered it,

were you nervous about it? I was not, not because I believed I with

Japan's Nigel Hawthorne. But if you are offered a Shakespearean role

that has been played in the previous five years by other

factors, why not take it? This is Shakespeare, because it is about

the extremes of human consciousness? Yes, and it is truly

tragic in that it is about a man of massive statists who falls to a

very low place in the middle of the play, and incontinent Reg. But one

of the great attributes of the play is that Alan Bennett allows the

audience to celebrate his recovery, which was historically accurate.

The audience love seeing him recover. It has very strong

political themes as well. There are various political factions

jockeying for power? Yes, and William Pitt's great cry off give

me five more years. That must resonate with some of your audience

and gets. Every politician just once one more chance. Yes, so a

politician is in power and just longs to be there for longer.

Blair said that it was only towards the end of his time in power that

he really understood how to make things work. Nicolas Sarkozy is

probably feeling the same way. The other a great role you have done is

Jim Hacker in Yes, Prime Minister. Before we speak about that, let's

see a little video clip. Do we have to deal with that tonight as well

as the collapsing conference, the BBC, my treacherous cabinet, you're

leaks, my disloyal party, the run on the pound, is there anything

else? Is there anything else you can pile on the tonight, yes,

global warming. Thank you very much. It is interesting that that piece

of drama doesn't make you feel for politicians as well, doesn't it?

There has been a lot of her -- a lot of satire and hostility towards

the political class, but that gives you a sense of the impossible task

their wrestling with? An impossible amount of pressure, ideally

cumulation of problems, just as one thing is solved, another arises.

What do you think about the Olympics? I hope it will not affect

the West End. My suspicion is that people will rest in the evening.

Within the recession, the West End is thriving, and I think it is the

old thing of a release from difficult times. I hope during the

Olympics that people will come in the evenings as well. For one if

you're other great roles was playing more warm's husband. A

lovely man, but it must have been strange playing someone in a movie

who at that point was still alive. Always when you play someone based

on a real person, you have to it here to the script, and be loyal to

the script. I thought that was a very fine screenplay. I played the

character that was written, who was extremely ambitious and loyal for

more Mowlam. He also had an extremely warm, immediate

personality. Your Own script of Kipling and his son was also a

great high point. As very moving father-and-son relationship. He

also got Daniel Radcliffe at the height of Harry Potter mania to

play that part. Was that difficult to get him to do it? He is a very

shrewd, intelligent man, who is fascinated by that area of British

history. I was doing a play in the West End and Daniel came to see it.

When the script was sent to him, he was excited by the idea of

investigating that period filly. is a poignant story. I am delighted

he did. You must be bored with people calling you Bernard. I need

to ask you about Four Weddings. When you were making the film, did

you have the sense that it was going to be really good? I thought

people believed it was going to be good and funny, but a local success.

No one had any idea of its global achievement. That was encapsulated

when I went to the Hungarian distribution party and everyone was

clapping and cheering. They were watching the British upper-middle

classes celebrating weddings and funerals. I will let you get back

to being mad and Wise with George III. Thank you for having me.

production of Yes, Prime Minister, which David takes Guardian recently,

is going on a national tour soon with a brand new cast. The

Government's welfare reforms came in for a mauling during the week.

The House of Lords voted for significant changes to the

proposals which included a cap on benefits. MPs will have their say

on Wednesday and I am joined now by the Work and Pensions Secretary,

Iain Duncan Smith. Good morning. There is a series of reverses which

she suffered in the House of Lords. First of all the proposal to make

people pay up front to get help from the Child Support Agency in

chasing fathers or sometimes mothers. A lot of people feel that

this is unfair and did well put people off an essential service?

The system we have at the moment is completely dysfunctional. We have

two major IT systems that do not work and a bag load of people we

cannot get hold of. It costs about �40,000 for a case to be settled.

We need to make an administration charge. It is very expensive and

does not work. This helps to divide parents from each other. When they

go to the agency, they become very hard and each other because they

are almost forced to be at each other's throats. Is this charge

designed to stop people using the agency and make them do something

else? We have been looking at behavioural economics. It shows

that if there is a small charge, people will think more. 50 % of

people who are going into the system have said to us that if they

had thought Again, then they would have done it had side. The parents

complain about being able -- about not being able to see the children,

and the other patient complains about the money. Lord Mackay,

hardly a liberal, pointed out that their allotted pretty desperate

people who want to use the system, and making them pay up front with

money they do not have seems unfair. -- of there are a lot of pretty

desperate people. That is not the issue. What is wrong with his

amendment is that he is not against charging. He wants all the charge

to be on the parent without care. This means that even there is us --

even if there is a slight difficulty, it will go straight

into the system, you will punish the individual twice. We want to

make sure that this is balanced. We are only asking for about 9% of the

money they receive. We will still pick up the lion's share of the

cost. But there also will be Are you going to reverse the

changes on the welfare benefits cat? The principle of that Cappagh

is straight forward. Even amongst Labour and Liberal voters it is

popular. Because it simply says why should someone on benefits be

earning more than the average wage? We want to avoid that ridiculous

position where they are living in expensive houses with lots of

children. We want to be fair to taxpayers who are on low and

marginal incomes. The that is the principle of fairness. But as was

pointed out by bishops and indeed Conservative Peers, there are

families with a fair number of children who are going to be

severely hit by this. We use as suggestion that you should exclude

child benefit from the cap. Because that goes to the children. So why

punish them? Well the principle behind all of our reforms, there's

one principle which is to get people who have fallen into

benefits to get a sense of responsibility about what they do

and to recognise that they should always be striving to change their

lives so that they actually contribute rather than take. The

reason why I would not remove child benefit from the cab is that the

level of the cap would rise which would be ludicrous. And also, you

cannot go on detaching children from their parents. We keep talking

as if children are somehow there, and what their parents do has no

bearing. We want people to make positive choices so their children

have a positive outcome. What about the same argument against having a

regional variation? Because house prices in London are so much higher

and housing benefit is a large part of this. You would be forcing a lot

of families to move house. Well the overall level is critical because

we have people living in London, in some cases in flats costing over

�100,000 per year to rent. That is the kind of nonsense we got

ourselves into. It is important to settle the London issue. So no

regional Cappagh? I am not going for a regional cap. If the Labour

Party really want a regional cap then that must mean that they want

benefits to be regionalised as well. You cannot detach one and just say,

we would like a bit of this but not the other. You said that you have

public support for this. And the polls show that. There's other

overwhelming support for higher taxation on the risk. The sense

that this government is cracking down on people at the bottom end of

the scale but not nearly enough on those at the top end. People like

the idea of a mansion tax and higher taxes on higher earners. Yet

you government goes against both of those things. Actually, the

government has done a lot already. We have that 50% tax which is a big

increase. That was a Labour move. The. Also is that we have had the

bankers led the, an annual levy on bonuses which raises more every

year than the Labour government's one-off races. We also have gone

for massive transparency in what people are being paid, Executive

pay. We are doing a lot about trying to get people to understand

that there is a relationship between the higher and lower

earners. In the last government income inequality was at its worst.

Just before we leave the welfare issue, you mentioned the idea of

transitional payments, some kind of grace period before these new

changes kick in. Can you tell us more? Well this has always been

clear from when I made the speech at third reading. We will take

Discretionary measures and where there are issues, we will look at

that. Most people are back in work within six to nine months. The

Prime Minister and myself have always said this, this has always

been clear, that we are looking at discretionary measures but the key

to the cap is that it comes in at 26,000. And Stephen Hester, that

close to �1 million bonus, causing intense anger. The government could

have done something about that. government has. The government made

it clear to the board that they should take into consideration the

nature of the consent among the wider public. The government - did

the board set this bowlers at half the level it was. -- this bonus. It

is paid in shares, not exercisable until 2014. And they can be clawed

back if he does not achieve what he wants. The second thing, and the

reality is that the contract we inherited, it is very clear that

the board takes the decision on this. We cannot interfere and tell

them what to do. The other option would be to get rid of the board

but if you do that, imagine what would happen in the banking sector

and in RBS. Just think of the chaos. RBS's balance sheet is slightly

larger than the GDP of the UK. What would that do to ordinary people?

We need to get this bank to a stage where we can sell it back. Would

you like Stephen Hester not to take his bonus? I have always said that

people need to think carefully about being -- being detached from

the rest of the British public. In the end it is up to him. It now

seems that the euro group of countries is going to use the

European Commission, European courts and that whole structure of

officials, to put four much deeper fiscal union. Are you happy with

that? Will the Prime Minister made it here in the last summit that the

UK was not going to play a part, it would not be involved with that. We

did not wanted to damage the single market are up our own banking

market. And did not want a European Union structures to be part of it.

The fact is the prime minister needed then using the institutions.

That the deal was because we have no guarantees that what was being

proposed would not damage the single market or cause problems in

the financial sector. This still not have -- have not completed

their treaty. Best to wait until we get there. If the structures of the

European Union I used for that end, to drive much deeper fiscal union,

what would be your attitude to that? The Prime Minister has

already made it clear because he'd be did any such possibility of that

happening. I Trust him on this because I know where he stands. He

wants to take the single market, protect it. We want them to get

their economies sorted out but we do not want them thrashing around

damaging the very thing we set up, which is accessed to the

marketplace and a free financial sector. To go out and actually veto

the treaty says a lot about his leadership. When you look at the

proposal of a European Union official basically to take over the

entire tax and spending of a sovereign country like Greece, what

you feel about the way that is going? I think there is a lesson

for all of them and they think it is one the Prime Minister will have

enunciated to them. If you fiddle around with democracy because you

do not quite like what it does then the Open the door to those who say,

why have democracy at all? So you need to be careful about how you

deal with sovereign states and how they govern themselves. We should

always stand up for democratic freedoms all over Europe. Lack of

democratic freedoms is what caused the second world war after all.

Now over to Susanna for the news headlines.

The Syrian government has condemned the Arab League for suspending its

observer mission because of the continuing violence. It believes

the move is an attempt to encourage foreign intervention. An Arab

League delegation is preparing to travel to New York to try to

persuade the UN Security Council to endorse its peace plan, which would

see President Assad step aside. There's continuing pressure on the

RBS Chief Executive, Stephen Hester, to turn down his one million pound

share bonus. The bank's chairman, Sir Philip Hampton has handed back

his bonus, of more than a million pounds in shares. A poll released

today says most people favour a cap on bosses' pay.

That's all from me for now. The next news on BBC1 is at midday.

Back to Andrew and guests in a moment. But first a look at what's

coming up after this show. Join us in Ben Brown where we will be

asking if the UK will miss Scotland. -- in Edinburgh. Then the other

matter - should gay couples have the right to marry? See you at 10

o'clock. Well, Iain Duncan Smith is still

with me, and we've been joined again by Helena Kennedy. There is a

suggestion that Lib-Dem MPs will do what some of their peers did and

split off. Are you concerned about that? Well we got the bill through

without that. Things like the cat, we can always look at discretionary

measures to make sure that people are not punished but are able to

sort out their lines. There is a suggestion in front Nick Clegg that

the House of Lords needs to be taking seriously in these matters.

You have to ask what is the House of Lords for, it is an unelected

Chamber. But it was a thought for debate and the bishops played an

important role in it. And a leading Conservatives of high principle

spoke about the justice of the some of this, expecting mothers bringing

up children actually having to pay a price. We always say that we

listen to what the House of Lords say and hold them in high regard

but at the end of the day we need to make sure that this does not

punish people for temporarily caught in situations not of their

making. I have always been clear about that. I think in the public

it is a sense that whilst we want something done about too much

benefit being paid, it is the other men that people feel is not being

dealt with. There was a big difference between the rhetoric...