12/02/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Later today, a knife- edge and absolutely critical vote

in Greece on the horrible austerity measures they are faced with. It's

part of the euro crisis which could still roll across this country too.

And I thought a useful if measured warning from the right-wing leader

of one of the Greek coalition parties this week: austerity

measures are like shoes that are too tight. Sooner or later you want

to kick them off. Angela Merkel, you have been warned.

Joining me this morning for our review of the Sunday papers, the

Daily Mail columnist Amanda Platell, and the Lib Dem deputy leader,

Simon Hughes, a victim of phone hacking. He accepted �45,000 in

damages last week from News International.

And it is clear the phone hacking saga still has a long way to run.

Yesterday's arrests of Sun journalists, and others, shows the

police investigation into media and police corruption is widening its

net. And yet in this country we have come to rely on a free and

viable press to tell truth to power, hold politicians to account. So is

this crisis now threatening an important part of our democracy? I

will be talking about the future of the press with Jeremy Hunt, the

Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, He is also, we

read, having a summit this week with David Cameron to talk about

racism in football, so we will hear too, perhaps, about his views on

the Terry, Rednapp and England problems.

Then there is the big government controversy of the week, the

troubled health reforms which Labour is determined to kill off.

I'll be discussing the opposition's tactics with the Shadow Health

Secretary, Andy Burnham, and asking how he would achieve the savings

and improvements which everyone agrees the NHS needs to make.

Also this morning, as the bloodbath continues in Syria, Turkey is

stepping up to try to take the lead in a new diplomatic push. Turkey's

ambassador here, Unal Cevikoz is with us.

And looking ahead to tonight's BAFTAs, the world's most popular

male actor, George Clooney, director and political activist,

too. He'll be talking about his latest film, The State Of America

and his friend President Obama. Finally, some music from another

very political artist, the wonderful Irish singer-songwriter

Christy Moore. So let's crack on with the news,

from Sally Nugent. Good morning. The American singer

and actress Whitney Houston has died in Los Angeles at the age of

48. Police say she was found yesterday in her hotel room at the

Beverly Hilton where she had been staying as a guest ahead of

tonight's Grammy awards ceremony. She was one of music's greatest

performers. Whitney Houston seemed to have it all, an amazing voice,

stunning good looks and hit after hit in the 1980s and 1990s. But her

life had fallen apart three years of drug abuse. When officers

arrived in the hotel room on the 4th floor, the fire department and

hotel security were attempting resuscitation measures. At 3:55pm

this afternoon, Whitney Houston was pronounced dead. News of her death

left fans stunned. She was a massive parties need growing up. I

love her music, it was emotional and soulful. I hope she is in a

better place. Her mother was also a singer, and her godmother was a

wreath at Franklin. She turned herself into a film in at the

Bodyguard. The movie's theme song was a power ballad that she sang so

well. But her character, as self- obsessed and difficult prima donna

was said to be too close to the real Whitney Houston for comfort.

She was forced to deny rumours that she was going off the rails.

Success turned to tragedy. She married Raj Singh or Bobby Brown.

There were stories of rows and family violence. They divorced in

2007. And then there were the confessions of drug abuse. Her life

appeared to spiral out of control. Her death has left many in the

music industry saddened, but not The Prime Minister has expressed

strong support for the Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley, after

reports that three Cabinet ministers are opposed to some of

his proposed changes to the NHS in England. In a Sunday Times article,

David Cameron insists that the plans will lead to better treatment

for patients. The owner of the Sun newspaper,

Rupert Murdoch, has promised that it's not about to close down amid a

growing crisis. Five Sun journalists were arrested yesterday

and released on bail, as were a serving police officer, an employee

at the Ministry of Defence and a member of the armed forces.

The Greek Prime Minister has warned of "uncontrolled economic chaos and

social explosion" unless the country's MPs approve the latest

plan to end the eurozone crisis. The Greek parliament will be asked

later today to approve wages and pensions cuts of more than three

billion euros in return for a bailout from the European Union and

the International Monetary Fund. Yesterday protestors opposed to the

austerity measures clashed with riot police in Athens.

Arab foreign ministers are meeting in Cairo later to decide their next

steps in response to the crisis in Syria. They are expected to discuss

setting up a joint Arab-UN team of observers to be sent to Syria to

replace the Arab League mission that was suspended last month.

That's all from me, for now. I'll be back just before 10 o'clock with

the headlines. Andrew. Thank you, Sally.

The Sunday Telegraph, the Treasury rules lead-managed tax breaks. That

will annoy a lot of Conservatives. For the Sunday Times, a similar

story, years of tax pain for high earners. Also remarkable story

about the Osama bin Laden's children. The Independent On Sunday

has Rupert Murdoch flies in as the crisis at the San worsens. The

Observer has also gone with that story. -- ABTA the Sun newspaper.

The Whitney Houston story that we are just hearing about there, it

arrived too late for most newspapers, but not for the Mail on

Sunday. We shed blood on our NHS reforms. That is David Cameron

saying that we're not going to give ground. There is also the Whitney

Houston story, you can see. Here is the first edition of the Observer

and the second addition of the Observer.

And with me to review the papers are Amanda Platell and Simon Hughes.

Whitney Houston, it is very tragic but not surprising. If you look at

the front page of the Observer, when it has got Whitney Houston on

it compared to when it has Rupert Murdoch on it, I think this one

will sell more copies. I know it is an important story. But I really

think that the left media sometimes sell for obsesses about it. Quickly

on Whitney Houston, people often have tragic lives, but the powerful

voice, for 20 years of my life, that is one of the... It is a

backdrop to parties, weddings, and it is very important. These people

may have terrible difficulties but we should be thankful for the

fantastic talent. I remember hearing from one of the Rolling

Stones that one of the reasons that a lot of singers to drugs in the

very early days was that they were performing three times a night, on

the road all the time, and it was to stay awake. It became part of

the culture and then it destroyed lives. Everyone is speaking about

this extraordinary slew of arrests of Sun journalist. These are not

obscure people. Jon Kay is about the most experienced reporter at

that the industry has left. It is shocking when you look at these

friends in the Independent. It shows just name after name of

people. You have managing editors, the chief reporter, the executive

editor, all the way across the newspaper. Every kind of senior

functionary. People behind the scenes, executive roles. It is

terrifying. And this is because, we understand, News International has

handed over a vast, on trawled through series of expenses claims

and all sorts of stuff over to the police. The police are going

through them and saying, right, you. Newspapers have done so much by e-

mail. You're getting approval for a story, something to pay for,

private detectives, there will be a trail of it all, and some of that

is completely legitimate. Simon, you got 45 grant from the phone

hacking scandal this week. I mention that earlier. -- �45,000.

Are you concerned about this? went to court to open this aside

and get everything in the open. I was clear that it was not just the

News Of The World. I was clear that a variety of activities, hacking by

some, getting hold of information they should not have had, was done

by the Mail on Sunday and the Sun, whole list. Our editor has

categorically said that there was no phone hacking. Politicians are

mixing things which are illegal and things that are legitimate.

information commissioner was very clear that there had been a whole

range of either illegal or inappropriate activity. THEY ALL

TALK AT ONCE I was the victim, not a phone hacking at the beginning,

that came later by the News Of The World.

I was the victim of people paying to get private records of phone

calls that were made by me. Other people were as well. To answer

Andrew's question, I am clear and hopeful that the new police

commissioner understands that he needs to retired corruption in the

police and what was Fleet Street. Because the police were pretty

involved in this? The reason I was suggesting that it does go beyond

one newspaper, or one kind of newspaper, is because of a very

interesting article in the Observer. It is by a very highly respected

journalist. He points out that closing the News Of The World was a

massive thing, because the red tops are in the cash cows for a lot of

industries in this country. Their losses are 175 million, the Times

and the Sunday Times. The prophet of the Sun is 650 million. He will

have a simple economic situation. If Rupert Murdoch has to close down

the Sun, which I do not believe he will, he is not trying to create a

merger like he was when the News Of The World scandal started. There

has always been that cross subsidy, and the broadsheets have been

subsidised by the tabloids, but everyone is expecting the launch of

a new substitute for the News Of The World. We'd better keep

cracking on. Let's move on to the NHS story which has dominated

political news all week. It has suddenly become the Tory party and

not us who are in the firing line because of the Tim Montgomery

analysis, saying that the Tories are unhappy. My view is that the

NHS needed reform because it was an accountable under the last

government and because under the last government all sorts of

unacceptable privatisation took place. So you want this health bill

to go through? I am clear that there needs to be legislation but I

did not want this health bill to go through. In the Lords, the rest of

the things that matter most to the public are being changed. So this

is a Liberal Democrat altered health bill? Yes, and I am not

embarrassed about that. In the Mail on Sunday there is a big article

about the relationship between this massive company and the people who

are going to be taking over a lot of the running of the NHS. There

are all sorts of alleged kickbacks. It is exactly the kind of thing

that your party was warning about. Are you concerned that the Health

Bill will allow that kind of relationship to flourish? I hope

not. We believe in an NHS free at the point of delivery. There is

private sector are activity already in the NHS. Labour put it there.

Labour made people use the private sector in my part of the world and

elsewhere. We're getting rid of that. If the Lords do all the

changes, for example making the Secretary of State fully

accountable. I think we will get it in check. It is the amendments that

we vote for. Every amendment will be an improvement. My constituents

want us to move on from the Health Bill and concentrate on clean wards,

speedy treatment. They do not speak about the structure of the health

service but they do want a good health service. There is a very

interesting article by Conservative She has pointed out that the Bill

was originally accepted, but it is impenetrable, a bit like Andrew

impenetrable, a bit like Andrew Lansley, she says. She reckons this

has been orchestrated by Number 10, and that David Cameron has

basically said the gates are open now, smear as much as you want, and

Andrew Lansley's job is on the line. I don't think that is true. David

Cameron has been lowered to reshuffle. He does tend to stay

loyal to people, and he does have a lot of respect for Andrew Lansley.

We should not have perpetual reshuffling, and in the last

government it was hopeless. However, I am clear we need to move on from

the spell. -- this bill. Do you think Andrew Lansley will survive?

I think it would be better to move on. Have a different health

secretary, yes. You have to be aware of our sensitivities within

the coalition as a measure Mark thank you.

Now, the weather. We had an autumnal winter, and now it looks

like we might get a wintry spring, It looks like things are getting

milder through the next few days but we still have the legacy of the

cold air sitting across the south- east. Overnight we saw cloud moving

in, pushing southwards. Clear skies in the south-east allowed

temperatures to fall, and there is a warning of ice from the Met

Office. Through the day, it is fairly cloudy, glimmers of

brightness with patchy rain and drizzle, but in South eastern areas

were still keep the legacy of cold air. Temperatures struggling to

rise, and the cloud moving in is bringing freezing rain and snow as

well. Into the Midlands, still misty and murky this afternoon,

cloudy with light rain, but across Scotland glimmers of sunshine will

be developing through the afternoon. Rather cloudy for Northern Ireland,

but some may spells developing here and there. Through Wales and south-

west England, thicker cloud is producing patchy light rain. Cold

at the moment, enough to bring icy stretches, but it will warm up

through the day. A potentially icy start true south eastern areas

tomorrow, but on Monday again, fairly cloudy and looking a little

less cold. The cloudy theme less cold. The cloudy theme

continues well into the week. As the violence in Syria just get

worse and worse, the efforts are intensifying to find some

meaningful international response. Arab foreign ministers will be

meeting in Cairo today to discuss the crisis, and there will be a

further debate at the UN this week. Turkey is now stepping forward to

take a leading role. I am now joined by the ambassador of Turkey

in London, Unal Cevikoz. Your prime minister has made it clear he

thinks this is Turkey's moment to step forward and try to bring the

parties in Syria together in some way. Can you explain how, given the

terrible violence and mutual hatred that is scarring that country now,

how that might be possible? The let me first explain how we arrive at

this point. We have been trying to reach out to the Syrian leadership

since March last year, trying to explain that the demonstrations

indicate there is a need for change. That is the reason why my prime

minister, President and foreign minister all tried to explain that

it was necessary to have some kind of political reform in the system.

President Assad promised that he would be delivering, but

unfortunately he did not hold his promises. Then we realised

bilateral contacts did not bring any solution to the problem and we

raised our attempt and tried to mobilise the regional initiatives.

We tried to reach out to regional organisations and co-ordinated the

Arab League, and that was the result. The Arab League took a very

interesting initiative, and there were some observers in the country.

They were ignored by the regime. They were, and President Bashar al-

Assad has been unable to come to terms with the expectations of his

people and international community. Few were ambassador in Moscow for

some time as well? No, I was in Iraq. I was going to ask whether

there is any surprise about the hard line being taken by Russia and

China, stopping the international community moving as one. It is very

disappointing that we have not been able to reach a solution in the

United Nations Security Council, but the two countries, the two

permanent members Russia and China have decided to walk like that.

surprised is Turkey about this, because there are a lot of

vulnerable groups in Syria. We have been trying to reach out to all of

the segments of the society. There are different sects, different

religions, different Christians, different Muslims, and ethnicities

in serious so it is a very mosaic structure. That is why they are

concerned, if the violence continues, it may be some kind of

civil war. That is the reason why we have been recommending the

opposition forces to get together, not to make any kind of division,

and bring all segments of society under the same movement. You would

like to bring representatives of the regime and the opposition

together to agree parliamentary elections next year? That is one of

the elements of the Arab League initiative, and I believe the

United Nations is working on that. Elections are necessary for the

future of Syria. Military intervention is completely off the

table. Of is not on the agenda of Turkey or any other country. What

about arming groups? This should be avoided and I don't think anybody

is considering this as an alternative. In the end, somebody

is going to have to look President Bashar al-Assad in the eye and

persuade him he will either have to deal seriously with the opposition

groups or go - who will do that? will do that and he has to respond

to the expectations of his people. What is happening in Syria is a

very serious development. The people are not happy with the

establishment, the regime, and the President, and this is why these

events are happening. And it could spark a wider war, if things go

really badly. That has to be under control of course, but we simply do

not want this to it -- escalate further. All the military machinery

should be removed from the cities, and there will be a possibility for

they position to establish dialogue with the regime. This will bring

the opportunity for the Syrian people to establish a democratic

society. Thank you. To the troubled health reforms we

were talking about a few moments ago - the Prime Minister insists

there will be no retreat but the Labour opposition scent blood. The

idea was to make the NHS more efficient, but if the Bill fails,

what were the opposition suggest? I am joined by the shadow health

secretary, Andy Burnham. Before I come to your alternatives, give me

your instincts about what will happen to this. The Prime Minister

seems determined there will be another slew of amendments, but the

Bill will go through. Reading today's papers, it is hard not to

conclude that David Cameron is putting his political pride before

the best interests of the NHS. The overwhelming consensus of opinion

between doctors and NHS staff, but also it would seem the sensible

members of his own cabinet, is that it seems sensible to abandon this

and work back through the existing structures of the NHS. I think he

is backing himself into a corner, putting himself, his party, and the

NHS into a dangerous position, and quite frankly it I think he will

pay a heavy price if he carries on in this way. Less talk tactics.

Your political job now is to draw as many of the Government's side

over to oppose this Bill as you possibly can - how will you do that

in the House of Commons? I have always called for it to be dropped,

but I have balanced it by talking to the government about Doctor led

treatment. I will talk to them about how we can introduce doctor

led commissioning within the existing structures of the NHS, but

if they won't listen we will continue to oppose this Bill to

have an mail. The reason is, it breaks 63 years of NHS history,

turning it into a market. I can't recall David Cameron seeking

people's permission to do that. There was a crucial debate coming

up next week in the Commons, which is where we will ask the Commons to

endorse the ruling from the information commissioner to require

the government to publish its risk assessment of these reforms. I

think that is essential. Parliament can't take a view on such a massive

reorganisation without knowing the risks. Do you think you will get

the backing from enough Lib Dem MPs, candidly, to get that past? You

heard Simon Hughes a few moments ago expressing some of his concerns.

I certainly hope so. There are over 10 Liberal Democrats who signed a

parliamentary motion calling for this and I think it is essential.

We have argued all along that the government made a catastrophic

mistake when it combined the biggest financial challenge in the

history of the NHS with the biggest ever reorganisation. This is the

wrong time of reorganisation, and the effect of doing this is putting

the services at risk. We are seeing waiting lists get longer, random

rationing. There are signs from the NHS of increasing distress and this

is only adding to that uncertainty. And yet, Labour put in

unprecedented amounts of new money into the NHS, you did not get the

productivity improvements you wanted, and isn't it the case that

there is simply too much bureaucracy inside the NHS, and you

don't have a clear plan about how to deal with that? I have never

argued the NHS is perfect but the coalition inherited a successful

self confident NHS, and in 18 months it is demoralised and

fearful for the future. There are some figures coming out tomorrow

that will contradict what you said about productivity. When we left

the government, waiting times were at an all-time low, so why did the

government take that situation and throw the pieces of the jigsaw of

in the air with this reorganisation? David Cameron said

there would be no top-down reorganisation. It was crucial for

him before the election to pose as a friend of the NHS. He doesn't

have a mandate, nobody voted for the privatisation of the NHS.

everything in the garden was rosy, why are you in favour of GP

commissioning? I am not against changing the NHS. One of my

objections of this Bill is that it is a distraction from what is

really needed. We need to treat more elderly people in their own

homes, that is the kind of reform the NHS needs. This back office

reorganisation is a distraction from it, and that is one of my

fundamental objections. Given what you have read in the papers this

morning, and the line the Prime Minister has taken, are you not

reconciled to the fact that the Bill will go through, but you think

it will go through? No, not at all. Far from it. I think this is not

wanted by the overwhelming majority of people in the NHS, but also in

the country. I think David Cameron is making a grave mistake by saying

he will be forcing it on to the statute book. This will threaten

the NHS. Nye Bevan famously said there will be an NHS so long as

there are folk left with a face to fight for it. I say to David

Cameron, if he doesn't listen to what people are saying, we will

give him the fight of his life to This evening the film world will

gather in London for the BAFTA awards, the annual gathering which

attracts some of the biggest names in cinema, and none bigger than

George Clooney. Tipped for a Best Actor BAFTA tonight and perhaps an

Oscar in a fortnight, George Clooney is a massively admired

performer and directors. His latest film is a wry look at the slowly

imploding life of a middle-aged father, faced with chronic family

problems and a land ownership dilemma. The Descendants is setting

Hawaii. I think the American dream has become a nightmare and it

happens far more often than people think. That is why it has resonated

around the globe. There are a lot of people who are not nearly as

happy as they are supposed to be. And to that extent and although it

is hallway and it has the music and so on, it could almost be anywhere

in America. It is a film about America? Yes. It is also a film

about parenting. You have terrible, terrible children. Yes. I do not

like eggs. Why did you not tell me How are you feeling? Hung over? Why

am I not surprised. You were supposed to be getting your act

together. I have been drinking. I have been doing really well, but no

one seems to notice that. My grades have been better. I was in that

stupid play that he did not even bother to see. That is what I

thought. Watching this character be completely flummoxed and have no

idea how to survive, for getting the land ownership issues, but

inside his home. What he missed along the way was raising his

children and understanding that there were other things. He has

figured that out. The sense of trouble in paradise for a sort of

unhappiness underneath the American Dream is something that some of

your films have picked up on? films usually reflect society. That

is because it takes several years to get it -- it to get a screenplay

written and move forward. I think that those American dreams that we

have, there are limits to those. are speaking just ahead of the

BAFTAs. They have become part of the drum beat ahead of the Oscars.

Americans have been coming over here to the awards for some time. I

know that I have. I was nominated four times and lost all four. It is

the funniest thing, when you walking, and you think, what a

great thing. And you walk out and you have lost, the biggest loser

they have ever had. Let's speak about politics, because your father

ran for Congress in Kentucky. The Ides Of March was a great film in

which you play a highly ambitious presidential candidate. That film

is not a redemption film. No, but I find that there are interesting

things to speak about and leave for an audience to decide. It is about

how we in America and elect our officials. If it works and it gets

the right Gary in office, and the right person does not lead due to

conflict, for instance, then is it worth it? At what level are we

going to adjust air morality in the beginning, do the ends justified

the means? You knew President Obama way back? Yes, I did. When he was a

senator. Where do you think he is now, because there are signs of

economic revolt -- economic revival? I think there will be a

pretty low turnout in the election. I think you see a lot of people

taking in this rhetoric that is not simply true. You can make arguments

about a very successful presidency. The old thing about campaign in

poetry, government froze. He has found governing harder?

governing bit is harder when you have a group that stood up... When

Mitch McConnell, the head of the Senate, stands up two years ago and

says an our number one goal is to make this man a one-term president.

The way that he makes someone as a one-term president days you pass no

bills that take the economy forward. We have had real difficulty just

getting normal things past, the sort of thing is that President

Reagan past 12 times. It is probably the most polar ice time

since the civil war from us -- for us in terms of right and left. --

it the most polarised time. You're beginning to find more challenges

in directing? Yes, I think anyone would find that. Directing is

infinitely more creative because acting is one element of film-

making and directing his every element. I am realistic about what

happens to a career. If you watch the careers of the great actors, it

does not end well. You're not going to say that your raging badly?

not saying that, but you are ageing. The job is evolving. I was reading

about the accident he had in Syriana. Tell us what happened.

I tore the middle of my bag and my neck about that far so I lost all

my spinal fluid, and when you do that, your brain sings in your head.

You back does not hurt, but your brain herds. I thought I had a

stroke. -- your brain is painful. I had to have surgery. For two years

I was dealing with a 24 hours a day. A way you contemplating your

mortality? Yes, but not in a morbid way. It makes you focus on getting

things done. You are tipped for an Oscar for The Descendants. You look

at the guys who are in there, and every one of them has a great story,

the five Oscar nominees. There are really good stories involved. Gary

Oldman has never been nominated but he has done all these wonderful

performances. Brad Pitt has never won and he has done all these

amazing performances. This is a real contest. And Jean Dujardin,

not because he is probably the one who's going to win. If you have

seen The Artist, there is no way not to love it. What is an Oscar-

winning performance? That is a good question. Interestingly, it is off

at time. I have won one so I have some understanding of it. -- of a

time. It is a perception of what you have done at a given time in

history. You can change your opinion... It is hard to get a

leading actor's Oscar from a film that is not already a great film.

The script has to be great. Every time you do if you are trying to

give your best performance. Every time. So the one that is slightly

better, how does that happen? are a million elements. As an actor,

you cannot make a good Fillmore performance out of a bad screenplay.

The script is everything. You can make bad films out of good

screenplays, but you cannot do it the other way. Those are the two

element that you cannot survive without. If those two are there,

there are all sorts of ways that things can workout. Jeff Bridges

was winning everything a couple of years ago. You knew that and he was

wonderful in the film, so deservedly so. But it is as much

about us wanting to live in a world where Jeff Bridges has an Oscar. He

has given wonderful performances in lots of films. There is an element

of this that is a generosity of spirit. Sentiment, warmth, a moment

in time. Yes. I hope that it is yours this time. Thank you.

actor and director of George Clooney. He is also a prominent

human rights activist and has set up a project to track abuses in

Darfur using satellite technology. He speaks about that in a longer

interviews you can see on our website. I am glad to say that the

culture secretary Jeremy Hunt is going to join us now. It is a

pleasure to be here. Can we start by speaking about the Leveson

enquiry? The Leveson enquiry is one of several things on your plate. It

has been at an almost theatrical performance that has run and run,

some terrible stories being told. In the end, Leveson comes to you

with recommendations. Do you simply accept them? It is an independent

inquiry so I do not know what he will recommend but we will look at

the recommendations carefully. I think the process that we have had

vindicates the decision by the Prime Minister, against a lot of

cynicism, and remember, this is something that has been swept under

the carpet by governments for a long time. David Cameron said, no,

we will tackle this and going to eat properly. I think the process

has worked well and people have confidence it is being done fairly.

Could it be that the inquiry is the punishment? There is an element of

that, because often the best disinfectant his son like when you

have problems. -- is sunlight. There needs to be changes in the

way the press is regulated, but people are starting to realise the

value of the press. The News Of The World exposed the cricket fixing

scandal. The Daily Mail had a very important role in bringing Stephen

Lawrence's murderers to justice. People are recognising what we

value as well. Without prejudging the inquiry, there is clearly a

conundrum. No one seems to one state regulation of the press on

the one hand, and I suspect you do not either. On the other hand, self

regulation is self regulation and it has not worked in the past. Some

proprietors say they do not want to be part of any self regulation

system, so well parliament not have to have a role in some form? I do

not understand how it is going to work. It is very interesting. We

have come much closer to a consensus on the way forward and I

would have predicted. Everyone agrees we do not want the state

regulating the content. We have one of the most lively prices in the

world. They make life for me and my fellow politicians extremely

uncomfortable and that is part of keeping us on the straight and

narrow. We do not want them to the state controlled, but we need to

have a tougher system, I would like it to be an industry led system. It

needs to be independent of newspaper proprietors and editors.

If a newspaper is going to be punished for stepping out of line,

it needs to be a credible punishment. I think it will be

possible to find a way through this, but we will need to wait and see

what the inquiry says. So you are hoping that the industry comes to

you with a tougher, more formal framework, possibly involving

things like a register of journalists? That means you will

I would love the industry to come to me with their proposed solution,

but whatever you propose must have the confidence of the public

because the public can not happy with what has been going on. They

are passionate about having a free press, having newspapers that hold

people to account, but they want people to behave properly. If

people can come forward with that solution, that would be much better.

So, it has to be tougher than what we have had in the past? Yes, and

it has to have a system of punishment so that, if the

newspaper stepped out of line, they really do get punished. I think the

newspapers understand things have to change. We have made much more

progress. The elephants in the room is the fact that the newspaper

industry itself, as you would know as a former editor, is not making

money. With the changes in technology that is happening, the

fact that people are reading used on their iPhones, there iPads,

there is the technological upheaval. How important is it that Rupert

Murdoch remains a big donor in this country? He has said he is not

going to close the Sun, but that is funding other papers which are

losing money. Not everybody would come in and back those newspapers.

That is not my job to say who should be owning what papers, but I

will say that I think Rupert Murdoch, through the investments he

made in Sky for example has massively increased choice in the

UK. Obviously I want the UK to continue to be an attractive place

for international investors. I am hoping that what will come out of

the whole Leveson process is that we can clean up what is happening

but also we can put in a new regulatory structure which helps

the newspaper industry evolve, deal with the challenge of the internet,

and if we can do that, if Britain is exciting place for that model,

hopefully investors from all over the world will want to be a part of

this story. We saw a shocking story yesterday of a slew of the rest of

really very senior people at the Sun newspaper. It is separate from

the Leveson thing entirely, but this is people corruptly paying

police and civil servants, allegedly, but this is not limited

to one newspaper, this is something you presumably fear is more

widespread in the industry? So it would appear, but this process is

going on. This is the process David Cameron started, and he said he

would deal with the problem of phone hacking with a series of

inquiries. But also people realise how important our newspapers are. I

think the MP expenses scandal, when Parliament was a disgrace, actually

parliament has recovered since then, found its voice back, and it needed

to go through that. The tragedy of the closure of the News Of The

World is that a lot of people who used to buy it had not switched to

another paper, they have stopped buying altogether. Let's turn to

another current crisis, which is what is going on in football, with

some very serious allegations of racist behaviour on the pitch. You

are meeting the prime minister to talk to him about this - give us a

sense of the kind of thing politicians can do. When you think

about the issue of racism in football, we have made huge strides,

and, as a society, one of the reasons we have been changing

attitudes is because of the changes in football. The last few weeks

would not necessarily support that. The lesson of the last couple of

months is that you can never be complacent, and the Prime Minister

is concerned to make sure we don't go back to the bad old days, but

also we are making sure the football authorities and the

government continued to do everything we can to stamp out this

problem. So you would be pleased to see John Terry stripped of his

captain ship so no suspicion of racism can be tolerated? With tears

a decision of the FA but I did support them when they made that

decision because sometimes a principle is more important than

any one person. It is important for the future of the game that the FA

deal decisively with these issues, as they did with Louise Clara's. --

Luis Suarez. More headlines today, on pleasantness on the pitch, and

that presumably depresses you? the FA will be looking at whether

any rules were broken. The referee did a fantastic job, but this is

the kind of thing which can so easily escalate, which is why the

Prime Minister has decided to take a real interest. Part of the knock-

on effect of Fabio Capello walking out, now there is a vacancy for the

England captain, is it important to get an English man in that job?

body would be more happy than me if we could find in English coach for

the English team, but not because he was English, because he was the

best person for the job. I am sure Harry Redknapp or whoever was

chosen would have the same views. We want the best person for the job.

Let's move on to the other government issue of the week, the

health reforms. It has been a miserable time for the government.

The Prime Minister it is banging the table and saying we are going

to hang on to the Health Secretary come what may, but now people are

saying so many changes have been made to this bill, what is the

point? The first thing I want to say is that Andrew Lansley is the

right person for this job. You have been tipped to take his job! At I

am proud to be the Culture Secretary, and Andrew Lansley is a

decent man, passionate about the NHS, and he knows what he is doing.

It is wrong to make a judgement about somebody when they are in the

eye of the storm. Making forms is never popular. When Tony Blair was

doing Foundation Trust for example, these are very contentious issues

and I think he will be seen as the architect of the NHS in years to

come. And D Burnham was saying this will not go through. He has

questions to answer - he was Health Secretary in a government that had

seven reorganisations in eight years, he says he is now against

reorganisations. He says he supports moves to give autonomy to

the front line, which he calls privatisation, which it certainly

isn't. He went into the election planning to cut the NHS budget. I

think they should answer some questions about their own policies

as well. He mentioned the Olympics, you're wearing your smart badge.

Controversially, you doubled the budget for the opening ceremony,

and in a time of austerity people would say it was not necessarily a

good use of money. We don't know how many people will watch that

opening ceremony. It could be 1 billion, the Chinese say 4 billion

watched their opening ceremony. This will be the longest

advertisement for our country in history, and I want the world to

know that this is the country that invented eight of the top 10 world

sports, part of standing alone against fascism in the Second World

War, and I want the world to know this is our chance. We do not want

to see British modesty. This is time to bang the drum about what is

brilliant about our country. Now the news headlines.

There singer Whitney Houston has died, she was 48. police say she

was found in a hotel room yesterday afternoon. She was one of the

world's best-selling artist until the mid- 90s. She was due to attend

the ceremony of the Grammy awards later today. The pie minister has

expressed strong support for the Health Secretary after reports that

three Cabinet ministers are opposed to some of his proposed changes to

the NHS in England, but the Lib Dem deputy leader Simon Hughes was less

certain about his future. He told this programme he believed

it would be better to move on in the second half of this Parliament.

The next news on BBC One is at midday. Now, let's look at what is

coming up after this show. Join us in Oxford, where we will be

asking should the NHS become a business opportunity? A constituent

and GP says the way this plays into the hands of the commercial sector

is immoral. We are also asking - our religions sexist?

Christy Moore is one of the most extraordinary and original talent

in folk music. A songwriter and performer over more than four

decades and he is known for political causes such as Irish

republicanism. The clues are in the album titles - Smoke And Strong

Whiskey and Unfinished Revolution, and so on. You'll be playing a song

by Ewan McColl. Tell us about why he is someone we should remember.

The songs he wrote live on. The first time ever I Saw Your face,

travelling people, a whole dearth of songs. He was a wonderful writer,

and when I met him in 1968 he was very encouraging to me. This is a

gentle song you will be singing, which relate to the backdrop.

are much so. Having looked at the backdrop, I thought of this song.

You are of a new album out, you are doing a lot of touring. Still

working away, and still very relieved the voice still survives.

You attribute to the Thames we will be hearing in a moment. Thank you

took all of my guests this morning. Next week we will be speaking to

William Hague, Denzel Washington, and many more. Now we leave you

with Christy Moore and Sweet Thames Flow Softly.

# I met my love near Woolwich a # On the river, Flo sweet river flow.

# London town was mind to give her, Sweet Thames flowed softly.

# I made the Thames into a crown, Flo sweet river flow.

How she I made a brooch of Silvertown, Sweet Thames flowed

softly. From Shadwell dock to Ninewells

reach, we cheek to cheek were dancing. How she her necklace made

of London Bridge, her beauty was enhancing.

# I kissed her once again at Wapping, Flo sweet river flow.

# After that, there was no stopping. Sweet Thames flowed softly.

# And I gave her Richmond Park to twist, Flo sweet river flow.

# Into a bracelet for her wrist, Sweet Thames flowed softly.