08/04/2012 The Andrew Marr Show


08/04/2012

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One good morning. On this, the most holy day in the Christian calendar,

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I bring you prove that the Church of England is not immune to change.

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Father Phil Ritchie told his parishioners this week that they

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will not have to celebrate Easter by going to church. He said they

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could instead stay at home, have a lying, eat some chocolate and do

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various other things. I'm sorry to say that he forgot to say, watching

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this programme. Joining us today to review the papers chasm Kevin

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Maguire of the Daily Mirror and Sarah Baxter of the Sunday Times.

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Despite the Easter break, politics is not on hold. The past few weeks

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have not been easy fault any of the main parties. For Labour, there was

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that shock by-election defeat. So, with local elections only a few

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weeks away, how do they all plan to get back on track? With me this

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morning, the Housing Minister, Grant Shapps, and one of the rising

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stars of the opposition team, Chuka Umunna, the Shadow Business

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Secretary. And joining us from Cumbria, the President of the

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Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. Also this morning, teachers are accusing

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the Government of behaving like a school bully over changes to their

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pay and pensions and the move towards more academies. The leader

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of the biggest teachers' union joins me to explain why her members

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are threatening to strike. And the actor Liam Neeson's career has

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taken him from intense historical dramas to all-action blockbusters.

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He explains how growing up in the home town of the Reverend Ian

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Paisley set him on the path to stardom. Finally, some music for

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Easter morning. The choir of New College, Oxford, are here. All that

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coming up, but first, the news, with Naga. Good morning. Police

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have charged a 35-year-old man with a public order offence following

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the disruption to the Boat Race yesterday. The race was suspended

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for half an hour after a man appeared deliberately to swim up to

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one of the boats. After the race, one of the Oxford team collapsed,

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and he is in a stable condition in hospital. It was a nail-biting race,

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both crews were side by side, more than 10 minutes in, when the race

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was stopped. A swimmer had been spotted between the two boats. A

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man has been charged - Trenton Oldfield is a campaigner who runs a

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blog. He had previously described the Boat Race as a place where

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elitists come together. His arrest came after one of the most dramatic

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races in the history of the event. Shortly after it had been restarted,

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a clash caused an oar to break in the Oxford boat, and Cambridge

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easily won. One of the losing team collapsed at the finish line, and

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was taken to hospital, but he is said to be doing well. The

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President of the Oxford University Boat Club said his team had had the

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culmination of their careers taken from them. Other critics are asking

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how the swimmer managed to get so close to the crews, raising

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concerns about security ahead of the Diamond Jubilee and the

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Olympics. Hackers who claimed to have disrupted the Home Office

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website are threatening to strike again. A Twitter Group says the

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British Government can expect attacks every Saturday from now on.

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Activists in Syria say as many as 160 civilians have been killed in

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one of the worst days of violence there. A ceasefire negotiated by

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then the United Nations is due to come into effect within a few days.

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But the city of Homs has once again come under heavy bombardment. Dr

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Rowan Williams will deliver his last Easter message as Archbishop

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of Canterbury this morning. In his sermon at Canterbury cathedral, he

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is expected to touch on continuing violence in the Middle East. He

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will talk about Israel's right to exist, but also about the

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harassment being suffered by Palestinians at checkpoints. That's

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the news for now. In a moment, we will have a review of the Sunday

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papers, but first, Easter weekend is the time when teachers

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traditionally gather for their conferences. Yesterday, members of

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the biggest union, the NASUWT, voted to step up action against

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changes to pay and pensions. They do not much like the Government's

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education reforms, either. I am joined by the leader of the union,

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Chris Keates. How serious are you about strike action? Well, we are

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very serious about taking action in order to defend pay and conditions

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of service, because we see those as being inextricably linked to

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raising standards of education in schools. Strike action, I'm afraid,

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has dominated the agenda, because the NASUWT, since the 1st December,

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has been doing an action short of strike action, where we try to hit

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things which do not actually disruption pupils in the classroom.

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Strike action for us is a last resort. We would prefer to be in a

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position where the Government is engaging with us seriously to talk

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about the real concerns of our members about the impact of

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government policies on children and young people. But that's the

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question, are you serious about balloting members on striking, or

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is this merely an opening gambit? We have already balloted our

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members, and we have a mandate for strike action and for action short

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of strike action. But we have been running a carefully planned

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strategy to try to get the Government to come into proper

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discussions, without having to resort to strike action. Clearly,

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if the Government is not listening, as they are not at the moment, then

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we have to be talking about what the next stage would be. What do

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you say to parents and pupils who are worried about how the summer

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exam season might be disrupted? can tell you categorically that the

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NASUWT is not planning to take strike action during the exam

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season, and would never do so. Our members are teachers first. They

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care very much about their pupils. So what are we talking about, are

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we talking about the autumn? would be looking towards the autumn

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term, I think, but first we would be looking at escalating our action

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short of strike action. We have been working with governors and

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parent groups to talk to them about our concerns, and trying to engage

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them in our campaign, of trying to get the Government to listen to the

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serious concerns of the profession. Would you co-ordinate any strike

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action with the NUT? We always want to work with our sister trade

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unions. We will be in discussions with the NUT, but at the end of the

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day, the action the NASUWT will take will be on the basis of

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consultation with our members, and whether we think it is right and

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appropriate. Is this not a bit after the event? It is clear the

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Government is not going to change its position on pay and pensions...

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Not at all. They have only started their assault on the national pay

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framework just at this point in time, so there is a lot to play for.

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On pensions, they may have put what they see as a final deal on the

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table, but in fact, they have been subject from us to a legal

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challenge about the impact, which has to be worked through. It is

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quite clear that the it if they fail the equality impact test, then

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they will have to make changes to the pension scheme. As far as we

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are concerned, these are important matters which are still up for

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discussion. Why should teachers not pay more into their pensions and

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retire a bit later, just like everybody else in the public

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sector? I think these are highly complex reasons, but first of all,

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I think there has been a lot of misinformation about teachers'

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pensions. They do pay a significant contribution, and teachers always

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knew that if there was a problem with the pension scheme, they may

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have to pay more. What is angering teachers is that the Government has

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not been able to demonstrate that there is a problem with the pension

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scheme, and so they see this as an additional tax on teachers. In

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terms of their pay, already, the Government's policies are having a

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massive impact on recruitment and retention. Over half of teachers

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are seriously considering leaving teaching, and last year alone,

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there was a 30% drop in applications for initial teacher

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training. That is unheard-of, at a time of economic recession, when

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actually, people from the private and public sector gravitate towards

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teaching because they have always seen it as good job security.

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you very much for joining us. Time for a look at the papers now. On

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the front pages this morning, inevitably, it is the picture of

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the Boat Race, this is the observer, together with a story about George

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Osborne's possible changes to the Osborne's possible changes to the

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tax arrangements for charitable donations. The Sunday Times, once

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again, the same picture. They have also got a story about George

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Osborne, telling everybody that he is going to keep the top rate of

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tax at 45p. Scotland on Sunday, they have the same picture.

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Interestingly, some of the papers have the man after he has gone past

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the blades, some of them have it before. They have got a story about

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Alex Salmond, and what independence might mean for Scotland's nuclear

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status. The Mail on Sunday has a story about the King of Bahrain,

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and plans for him to have lunch with the Queen during the Olympics.

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The Independent on Sunday has a story about how research for

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climate change is going to have its funding cut, apparently. Welcome to

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both of you - first of all, Kevin both of you - first of all, Kevin

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Maguire... We have now got philanthropists up

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in arms over proposals to restrict tax relief, for people giving more

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than �200,000. That will really test how keen they are to give,

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test how keen they are to give, these well-heeled philanthropists!

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This one does right to the heart of the Big Society, which is all about

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voluntary giving, and good luck to the Chancellor, if he thinks he is

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the Chancellor, if he thinks he is going to beat McMillan on this one.

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I lived in America for about eight years, and everybody gives more

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there, because you get straightforward tax relief on

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everything you give. Even I gave more on that basis, you just feel

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more generous, because, why not give to your favourite charity,

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instead of giving to the taxman? It does seem like a crazy thing, and I

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can see why charities are outraged. The argument is that actually, the

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most selfless giving his to the tax collector. Often, if you give to

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the arts, you want your name attached, you want to reflect in

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the glory of it. At least they are not looking for tax loopholes. I

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think they are shooting themselves in the foot. But the Budget is

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still producing headlines, so long after the event. Yes, and they are

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all negative. I think George Osborne has taken his eye off the

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ball. He is always said to be a great political strategist,

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although I have always had my doubts about that. He has gone on

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the back foot by saying in the Sunday Times that he is not going

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to reduce the rate further, because I think he definitely wanted to

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reduce that top rate down to 40p. The Boat Race, what a story.

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agree with you, this has to be the headline of the morning. Amazing

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pictures. I gather it was some kind of protest about elitism. But in

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the good old days, when it was a truly elitist institution, I think

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they would have kept on going! What a fascinating story that was,

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anybody might have thought the Boat Race was boring! And they are

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always the same two universities, it is not an open competition, is

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it? This is the Sunday Times, picking up on this anti-elitist

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campaigner, privately educated, who is said to have drawn inspiration

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from the person who threw themselves in front of the King's

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horse at the Derby. It is a curious protest, isn't it? Elitism, it is a

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curious approach. It does not compare to Emily Davidson, who was

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campaigning for half the population to get the vote. It is a rather

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general point, campaigning for world peace. But it does raids

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questions about the Olympics, of course. The marathon, and cycling

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and so on, going down the streets. I wanted to draw attention to this

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shocking picture in the Independent on Sunday, a mass grave in Syria.

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We are not seeing much from Syria these days, and one reason we are

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not is because my beloved colleague got killed there. President Assad

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and his henchmen deliberately targeted a media centre, so that

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journalists would be afraid to report from there. I am not

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suggesting that journalists should all pile in and risk their lives,

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it is terrible enough that Marie and her photographer lost their

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lives, but I think on this day, we should reflect that the killing is

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still going on there. It is a terrible picture, but I am glad to

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You are right about the Marie kolvin point. If you get

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journalists out, organisations pull them back, you have the shocking

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killing and other people were injured, you can basically kill in

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privacy, in silence. There is a real sense he's getting away with

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it and I just want people to feel that outrage even if they don't see

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it every day. Back to more domestic matters. Kevin, St Paul's for the

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Conservatives? Absolutely. The anti-eliteest with the boat race.

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There is a poll here which says six out of ten people think the

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Government is a Government of chums which the Mail on Sunday say it was

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a phrase they used last Sunday and then in their leader, Norman Tebbit

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picked it up and accused the Government of it during the week.

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It's a weakness because it blows apart the idea we are all in this

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together and it's a growing problem for David Cameron. He's getting a

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lot of this criticism within the Conservative Party, the likes of

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David Davis and Mark Pritchard, Nadine Dorries, the true heirs to

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Thatcher who fought their way to the top. You look at this, you know

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it's a problem, but then you look at the details of the poll and they

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ask who would you invite to dinner. Boris Johnson is the most popular

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politician, 22% would invite him to dinner. He's performed an amazing

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feat of being somebody who went to Eton, was in the Bullingdon Club

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and yet he somehow pulls off this man of the people act. That poll is

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not particularly good for Ed Miliband is it? He's down at 45%.

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He doesn't seem like a very good dinner companion does he, Ed. One

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thing about the Tories at the moment is that, you mentioned about

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how the Budget is carrying on, they seem to have lost control of the

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story, the narrative. That's dangerous for politicians when they

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are no longer in control of how they present themselves. What

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intrigues me is that the Conservative dip in the polls has

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not been matched by a significant rise in the Labour opinion. At the

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moment people are saying they are less likely to vote Conservative,

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they are not saying they'll transfer their vote. ComRes had a

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rating. David Cameron's personal ratings are down, but not as far as

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Ed Miliband or Nick Clegg. It feels in politics at the moment as though

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the Government's losing its way but Labour hasn't found its way. Labour

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has a huge job to persuade anybody they are a credible opposition at

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the moment. Ed Miliband will find that more people will prefer Boris

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Johnson and Ken Livingstone than him for dinner. The Pope's brother?

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I didn't know he had a brother. didn't either, but it seems that at

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the ripe old age of 88, his brother's written a kiss-and-tell

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memoir, which might be exaggerating a bit! He's apparently claiming

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he's worried about his brother's health. He is looking pretty frail,

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the Pope, so on Easter Day, we can wish the Pope good health but

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really who needs that, he's made it to the top of his tree there, the

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Pope. He thought he'd got away with it and yet here comes his brother

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telling his story. Amazing. We know his wartime record's been "looked

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at" in the past, what he was up to. The Observer again, there is a

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survey by Demos on faithful citizens which finds, maybe it's

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counterintuitive that religious people are more likely to be right-

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wing than left-wing. It seems that no more people, positions on

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immigration and so on, are more likely to be on the left than right.

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I suppose Jesus was a carpenter, maybe even a Trade Union member.

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Now you don't even have to go to church, you just have to be a

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general do-gooder. That's a red rag to a bull on both sides of the

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argument isn't it? Yes because often the left is painted as being

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agnostic and atheists. Giro Juan Williams is always popping up in

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the New Statesman. But it seems to be the role of the Archbishop of

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Canterbury to attack whoever is in power. I seem to remember Tony

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Blair had a few problems with Iraq. He did. The new face of feminism,

:20:26.:20:32.

Sarah? I thought since we were mentioning... This is the new front

:20:32.:20:39.

of feminism. With a vanity strap across the middle I see. This is a

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feminist group that's been going to Davos, protesting against

:20:42.:20:46.

Berlusconi, they've been protesting in France, they actually come from

:20:46.:20:52.

the Ukraine and they've got a novel form. They all look like Brigitte

:20:52.:20:55.

Bardot and they rip their tops off for attention. That is the hard

:20:55.:21:01.

core face of feminism today. There we go. The hosepipe ban? Love this.

:21:01.:21:09.

This is the water minister, Richard Benyon who in the Sunday People,

:21:09.:21:16.

Water Gate II they called it. He accuses the newspapers of turning

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the tap on, the journalists saying that's not the case but there we

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are, it's great. I think he thinks it's a set up doesn't he? He tuz.

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The paper denies that. In the Leveson period, I think it would be

:21:30.:21:34.

rash for journalists to go around turning taps on. There we go. Thank

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you both very much indeed for joining us this morning. It's been

:21:37.:21:42.

a strange week for the weather, snow in Scotland in the north and

:21:42.:21:45.

hosepipe bans in the south. What next I wonder? Rain perhaps. Now

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the detail from Matt in the weather the detail from Matt in the weather

:21:48.:21:52.

studio. Good morning. It has to be doesn't it really. Good news for

:21:52.:21:57.

many a gardener and farmer out there. The wet weather, well it's

:21:57.:22:00.

general dampness this morning with plenty of cloud around. While some

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will lose the morning rain or drizzle, for the afternoon, the

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rain turns heavy across parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland.

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Further south, we start to introduce a bit of brightness. In

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the south-west, the Midlands and the east of England particularly,

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cloud breaks and some sunshine in eastern parts of Wales. One or two

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well scattered showers. Temperatures 13-16. For most,

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around 9-136789 turning wet across north-west England. For Northern

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Ireland and western Scotland, the breeze picks up and the rain turns

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that bit heavier and more persistent. That will clear into

:22:31.:22:34.

the first part of the night. Temporary dip in temperatures. We

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hold on to the damp weather in England and Wales but later on,

:22:37.:22:41.

rain pushes back north and eastwards to most parts, preceded

:22:41.:22:45.

by a bit of snow in the tops of the Scottish mountains. Easter Monday

:22:45.:22:51.

is a day to raid the family games cupboard, or put on the waterproofs

:22:51.:22:56.

and brave the elements. Patchy rain in the east. Turns a little drier

:22:56.:22:58.

for some across Scotland and Northern Ireland. The morning rain

:22:58.:23:02.

replaced by sunshine and showers. That sets us up for the rest of the

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week. James, some sunshine around week. James, some sunshine around

:23:07.:23:09.

but more rain too. Thank you very much. Last year's local elections

:23:09.:23:12.

were a low point for the Liberal Democrats, so it's perhaps not

:23:12.:23:15.

surprising that ahead of next month's polls, they are trying to

:23:15.:23:18.

assert their authority and independence within the coalition.

:23:18.:23:22.

The latest disagreement is over Government plans to extend Internet

:23:22.:23:25.

surveillance and secret courts. Is this flexing of the party muscles

:23:25.:23:31.

enough to win back support? The party President Tim far Ron joins

:23:31.:23:36.

us now from his home in Cumbria. Good morning. Morning, James.

:23:36.:23:41.

You said in your party's website this weekend that "we should be

:23:41.:23:45.

prepared to put our foot down and pull the plug on the changes to the

:23:45.:23:48.

surveillance laws and the plans for secret courts". Does that mean you

:23:48.:23:53.

want to kill them outright and not just amend them?

:23:53.:23:56.

It's important to be reasonable and look at the draft legislations it

:23:56.:24:01.

will now be, not an outright Bill and see what it says and look at it

:24:01.:24:06.

on its merits. I'm in no mood whatsoever to apologise for or to

:24:06.:24:10.

amend or unpick authoritarian legislation. It strikess me that a

:24:11.:24:13.

Liberal Democrat or Government includes Liberal Democrats should

:24:13.:24:18.

ensure that Britain ends up a more liberal place, not less. Like many

:24:18.:24:21.

of us who're liberals, were horrified by the original press

:24:21.:24:25.

report about what the surveillance measures might lead to. There must

:24:25.:24:29.

be absolutely no question of universal Internet surveillance

:24:29.:24:34.

across this country. Are you going to oppose these

:24:34.:24:37.

measures as currently outlined in the green paper and currently

:24:37.:24:43.

reported, or will you try to amend them, or do you want to kill them

:24:43.:24:48.

outright? I'll see what it says first of all.

:24:48.:24:52.

You are prepared to compromise? Well, I'm prepared to recognise

:24:52.:24:56.

that there are obviously, there is a need in a modern society with new

:24:56.:25:01.

technology to have a look at what needs to be given to the Security

:25:01.:25:05.

Services, but only if it's absolutely clear there is no

:25:05.:25:07.

universal access. We are prepared to kill them, be absolutely clear

:25:08.:25:12.

about that, if it comes down to it. If we think this is a threat to a

:25:12.:25:15.

free and liberal society, then there'll be no question of

:25:15.:25:18.

unpicking them or compromising, this just simply must not happen.

:25:18.:25:23.

Is this a good way to make legislation?

:25:23.:25:27.

Public debate, public division, messy compromise like the Health

:25:27.:25:29.

Bill? I think actually what you are

:25:29.:25:32.

seeing is the good side of coalition politics. What happened

:25:32.:25:36.

in the last Government is, you would have an unofficial coalition

:25:36.:25:42.

between Blair and Brown where there would be desperately unpleasant and

:25:42.:25:44.

personal disagreements that were all buried beneath the surface but

:25:44.:25:47.

we found out about them. In the coalition, you get honest debate

:25:47.:25:51.

upfront which is not that personal, it's not aimed at individuals, it's

:25:51.:25:54.

about issues and differences of opinion. It shouldn't come as a

:25:54.:25:56.

surprise to you or anybody else that the Liberal Democrats and

:25:57.:26:00.

Conservatives think very different things and whilst there are some

:26:00.:26:04.

people like David Davis in the Tory party who have Liberal instincts,

:26:04.:26:07.

they are in a minority and it will be up to Liberal Democrats to fight

:26:07.:26:11.

the corner for freedom and for liberal values in this coalition.

:26:11.:26:14.

Theresa May, the Home Secretary, said in the Sunday Telegraph this

:26:14.:26:17.

morning that there will be a Bill in the Queen's speech, it will be a

:26:17.:26:20.

Bill, not a draft Bill, but a Bill that will be introduced and passed

:26:20.:26:25.

in the next session of Parliament? It's interesting to hear her say

:26:25.:26:29.

that. I would be surprised if we ended up in a situation where any

:26:29.:26:32.

Bill that looked anything like the press reports that were talked

:26:32.:26:35.

about earlier this week got anywhere near the House of Commons

:26:35.:26:38.

and if it did, Liberal Democrats would not support it. I don't think

:26:38.:26:41.

that is what is going to happen. My conversations with the Deputy Prime

:26:41.:26:44.

Minister and others reveal there's been significant movement this week.

:26:44.:26:48.

I suspect a lot of the reports are exaggerated, but if they warrant,

:26:48.:26:51.

no such Bill should get anywhere near the House of Commons. We are

:26:52.:26:57.

discussing this on the day that the Home Office website has been hacked

:26:57.:27:00.

again. Do you think people wouldn't say, it's reasonable that the

:27:00.:27:05.

Security Services should be able to monitor what terrorists do, how

:27:05.:27:08.

they communicate across social media and Liberal Democrats like

:27:08.:27:10.

yourselves shouldn't tie the hands of the Security Services if they

:27:10.:27:14.

need the powers that they are asking for?

:27:14.:27:18.

Yes, that's why if there are occasions when that is necessary,

:27:18.:27:21.

then through an appropriate judicial process, then such powers

:27:21.:27:24.

could potentially be granted. We are not saying that the Security

:27:24.:27:28.

Services shouldn't have the right to protect us and keep us safe. We

:27:28.:27:31.

are saying we should not have the authorities, the state, with the

:27:31.:27:35.

power to snoop on any given individual who potentially is a

:27:35.:27:38.

totally innocent person that,'s something that should be very

:27:38.:27:41.

alarming to anybody that values their right as a free citizen in

:27:42.:27:46.

this country. What do you say to people who say your party's facing

:27:46.:27:49.

a wipe-out at the local election and you are using this to posture

:27:49.:27:53.

that ahead of the elections? Liberal Democrats are campaigners,

:27:53.:27:57.

we are campaigners in opposition and we are campaigners when we are

:27:57.:28:03.

in Government. In the last Parliament, it's interesting, you

:28:03.:28:05.

had awful authoritarian administration bringing through

:28:05.:28:10.

legislation like ID cards, 28 days detention without trial. Liberal

:28:10.:28:14.

Democrats campaigned very hard against those measures and we

:28:14.:28:18.

couldn't do anything because we are in opposition. Now we can get

:28:18.:28:19.

authoritarian legislation brought forward, the Liberal Democrats take

:28:19.:28:23.

it out and remove it, so it's good to do it in that way. As for the

:28:23.:28:27.

local elections, I've been knocking on doors in my patch in Cumbria

:28:27.:28:30.

this last week and across the country in previous weeks and I get

:28:30.:28:34.

the sense that we are aware this will be a difficult time for us.

:28:34.:28:38.

This is the first liberal mid term for 65 years so this is new

:28:38.:28:44.

territory and we know it's hard. We recognise that after last year's

:28:44.:28:47.

poor results, we are determined to fight back and to stand up for what

:28:47.:28:49.

we've achieved in Government, for what we are stopping the Tories

:28:50.:28:54.

doing and what we are doing in terms of clearing up the mess that

:28:54.:28:58.

Labour's left us with. You said divorce between the coalition

:28:58.:29:02.

parties is inevitable. How and when is that going to happen? Take us

:29:03.:29:06.

through the process? All I meant was that this was a

:29:06.:29:10.

five-year Parliament with a five- year coalition agreement. My

:29:10.:29:13.

politics haven't changed one inch since the coalition was formed.

:29:13.:29:16.

That was just the arithmetic that the last election left us with and

:29:16.:29:20.

we have to get on and create a workable majority and govern the

:29:20.:29:25.

country. That will end when the fixed term Parliament ends in 2015,

:29:25.:29:29.

that doesn't mean we can't campaign as a distinctive and individual

:29:29.:29:33.

political party with ore our own very separate message which is

:29:33.:29:36.

progressive, green, fair and liberal. That will continue up

:29:36.:29:40.

until the general election. There's bound to be some angst because two

:29:40.:29:43.

parties are co alesing in Government to try and run a

:29:43.:29:46.

Government but at the same time fighting against each other in

:29:46.:29:50.

elections but we are grown-ups and it's important to behave like that.

:29:50.:29:53.

Scotland and Wales are very used to having coalition Governments and

:29:53.:29:57.

why shouldn't we get used to it in the UK. Tim far Ron, thank you very

:29:57.:29:59.

much. If you want to win elections, you

:29:59.:30:02.

have to convince voters that they can trust you with the economy.

:30:02.:30:07.

It's hard enough in good times when money's flowing but even harder in

:30:07.:30:11.

times of austerity. With dogged constant opinions, it's suggested

:30:11.:30:17.

Labour has a long way to go on this task. The party's Shadow Business

:30:17.:30:22.

Secretary, Chuka Umunna joins me now. Good morning. Morning. Happy

:30:22.:30:26.

Easter. And to yourself. David Miliband, not Ed, wrote recently

:30:26.:30:30.

that Labour had a tough job to win back economic trust in 199 2 and

:30:30.:30:34.

it's an even tougher challenge today. Do you accept that, that

:30:34.:30:42.

people still don't trust Labour on I do not accept that analysis in

:30:42.:30:47.

the way that you have interpret hated it. Those were David

:30:47.:30:55.

Miliband's words, not mine. I think increasingly, what we have seen

:30:55.:31:03.

happen, as the economic statistics have stacked up, with more than 2

:31:03.:31:07.

million people being out of work, having no growth over five quarters,

:31:07.:31:10.

people are beginning to question whether they should be giving the

:31:10.:31:16.

benefit of the doubt to the coalition from stop -- to the

:31:16.:31:23.

coalition. From our point of view, everybody now accepts that the cost

:31:23.:31:26.

of living crisis is perhaps the biggest issue facing the country.

:31:26.:31:31.

When you look at the arguments we are making about growth being a

:31:31.:31:34.

prerequisite to reducing the country's debts, and actually

:31:35.:31:38.

people like the IMF saying that you need growth, all of those things,

:31:39.:31:43.

all of those arguments, have been going on. But this is a long game.

:31:43.:31:48.

We went down to our second biggest defeat in 2010, and the idea that

:31:48.:31:52.

suddenly the British public are going to turn around and say,

:31:52.:31:56.

actually, you're right now, it will not happen, it is going to take

:31:56.:32:05.

time. Polls over this weekend have not been showing any increase in

:32:05.:32:09.

trust for Labour, why is that? Is it a legacy of your time in

:32:09.:32:15.

government, or is it a lack of policy now? I'm slightly nervous

:32:15.:32:19.

about using the polls, because ultimately, the polls which matter

:32:19.:32:23.

are the elections. We have got local elections coming up in May,

:32:24.:32:27.

and the general election after that. But if you look at the polls that

:32:27.:32:31.

we have had, Labour is enjoying quite a lead at the moment. It is

:32:31.:32:36.

difficult to disentangle that from the message that we have been given.

:32:36.:32:39.

But we are humbled, this is a long journey, we have got to rebuild

:32:39.:32:42.

trust, and I believe we are doing that. If you look at the choices

:32:43.:32:47.

that the Government are making, where they have chosen to give

:32:47.:32:54.

14,000 people a huge tax break... But I want to talk about your

:32:54.:32:59.

policy. You have a five-point plan for growth - how many people

:32:59.:33:03.

actually know what that is? If you look at one of the parts of that

:33:03.:33:07.

plan, to give a national insurance break to small businesses, the

:33:07.:33:11.

small businesses have come out in support of that. If you look at the

:33:11.:33:17.

part which says about bringing forward infrastructure investment...

:33:17.:33:23.

What are the other three? We have got two VAT commitments, wanted to

:33:23.:33:29.

a temporary cut on VAT, and you have got the 5% rate of VAT on home

:33:29.:33:33.

improvements, and of course, you have got a repeat of the bank bonus

:33:33.:33:37.

tax, to make sure that those who essentially triggered the recession

:33:37.:33:43.

pay their fair share. Why is it not getting through? I do not accept

:33:43.:33:48.

that. Why has right been coming forward with this youth contract,

:33:48.:33:54.

it is because of what we have been arguing for, in relation to jobs. I

:33:54.:33:57.

could go through a whole list of things that we have been proposing,

:33:57.:34:02.

which have been resonating with businesses and individuals. I do

:34:02.:34:05.

not buy this argument that it has not been getting through.

:34:05.:34:09.

Budget went down pretty well with the business community, they liked

:34:10.:34:12.

the cuts in corporation tax and other things, and yet many

:34:12.:34:18.

businesses do not like Labour's anti-business rhetoric. You have

:34:18.:34:25.

got a big challenge there. First of all, I think there was a mixed

:34:25.:34:29.

response to the Budget. I think people welcomed the corporation tax

:34:29.:34:35.

cut, but they actually said, in fact, why didn't you do something

:34:35.:34:38.

about national insurance? If you look at some of the small

:34:38.:34:41.

businesses, especially in manufacturing, they were not

:34:41.:34:45.

terribly impressed with all aspects of the Budget. But also I do not

:34:45.:34:49.

accept that somehow there has been an T mack business rhetoric coming

:34:49.:34:54.

out of the Labour Party. We have been arguing for an industrial

:34:54.:34:59.

strategy, active government, using all the levers at its disposal, to

:34:59.:35:03.

support British business, not stepping aside and letting market

:35:03.:35:08.

forces do everything. It is very much what like people from the

:35:08.:35:13.

engineering sector have been arguing for. If you look at Vince

:35:13.:35:17.

Cable's leaked letter, he was begging the Prime Minister and the

:35:17.:35:24.

Deputy Prime Minister to adopt an active industrial strategy. But for

:35:24.:35:31.

ideological reasons, it was opposed within government. The Unite union

:35:31.:35:35.

is threatening a tanker strike, and that union is your party's biggest

:35:35.:35:42.

donor, so have you put pressure on Len McCluskey? I don't think a

:35:42.:35:47.

strike in any circumstances is a good thing. Have you spoken to Len

:35:47.:35:52.

McCluskey about it? Not personally. Why not? I will be meeting Len

:35:52.:35:56.

McCluskey shortly. But let me correct you on one thing, the

:35:56.:36:01.

majority of our funding, in our party, comes from our membership. I

:36:01.:36:05.

am not ashamed of our relationship with the trade unions. I cannot

:36:05.:36:10.

stand this way that you get people seeking to divide off trade unions

:36:10.:36:16.

and public sector workers on the one hand... What about the feeling

:36:16.:36:26.

from the unions that Labour owes them on certain issues in return

:36:26.:36:30.

for their support? We are talking about millions of hard-working

:36:30.:36:37.

people... Do you endorse the comments from Tom Watson, it is

:36:37.:36:43.

very straightforward, he says that the Labour Party should owe a

:36:43.:36:46.

respectful treatment to the unions and should give them an early heads

:36:46.:36:50.

upon policy change. Well, I think we should be respecting all

:36:50.:37:00.
:37:00.:37:04.

stakeholders in society. I am not sure about giving them a heads-up.

:37:04.:37:08.

There have been instances where we have informed the unions in advance,

:37:08.:37:12.

but ultimately, we make the decision in the interests of the

:37:12.:37:16.

entire country. Let's not forget, this country would not be able to

:37:16.:37:20.

function, our businesses would not be able to function, were it not

:37:20.:37:23.

for trade union members contributing to our overall wealth

:37:23.:37:28.

and prosperity. I don't think that dividing up different parts of

:37:28.:37:32.

society is hopeful. A couple of quick questions about things in the

:37:32.:37:36.

news - tax transparency, do you think politicians should reveal

:37:36.:37:39.

their tax returns? On a personal level, I would not have a problem

:37:40.:37:45.

with that. We will match the Government on that. But let's not

:37:45.:37:48.

get distracted, because the reason this came up was because of the

:37:48.:37:53.

Government cutting the 50p rate of tax. That's obviously going to

:37:53.:37:57.

affect a very small number of people, and I think the public

:37:57.:38:00.

deserves to know whether ministers stand to benefit from this measure,

:38:00.:38:05.

which will benefit a very small number of people across the country.

:38:06.:38:11.

There has been more hacking action against the Home Office website -

:38:11.:38:14.

do you support that kind of direct action? I certainly would not

:38:14.:38:18.

support that, I don't think it is very helpful. If you have got

:38:18.:38:21.

grievances with government policy, then you should raise it in the

:38:21.:38:25.

usual way. We cannot have a situation where we have got people

:38:25.:38:28.

hacking into different websites, because many people rely on those

:38:28.:38:32.

websites, we're talking about the Home Office website and community

:38:32.:38:40.

safety issues. So, I would not support that, no. Thank you very

:38:40.:38:45.

much for joining us this morning. The actor Liam Neeson has been a

:38:45.:38:49.

powerful, often brooding presence on TV and cinema screens for 30

:38:49.:38:55.

years. He was hugely acclaimed in the 1990s for his portrayals of two

:38:55.:38:59.

real-life historical characters, Michael Collins and Oskar Schindler.

:39:00.:39:04.

More recently he has enjoyed success in blockbusters such as

:39:04.:39:14.

Star Wars, Batman, The Narnia Chronicles and Clash Of The Titans.

:39:14.:39:24.
:39:24.:39:39.

I met him, and we started off by Warning red, weapons tight.

:39:39.:39:46.

Battleship was a chance, firstly to go to Hawaii, and secondly, Pearl

:39:46.:39:55.

Harbor, and to shoot on the USS Missouri, which was where the

:39:55.:39:59.

Japanese officially surrendered at the end of the Second World War. We

:39:59.:40:03.

did it with all of these naval cadets, and I was playing the

:40:03.:40:08.

Admiral of the fleet, and I had all the regalia on, so all these guys

:40:08.:40:12.

were just saluting me every time I went into a restaurant or something.

:40:12.:40:20.

I had to say, guys, please, don't! One of the interesting things about

:40:20.:40:24.

Battleship is that one of the actors is a limbless veterans, who

:40:24.:40:32.

lost both his legs in Iraq, I think. I find that fascinating. I have one

:40:32.:40:36.

little scene with him towards the end. I remember thinking, as he was

:40:36.:40:43.

walking towards me, and I am presenting him with a metal for his

:40:43.:40:50.

bravery, and he had a look in his eyes, no actor in the world could

:40:50.:40:57.

act that, what that man has seen, what he has experienced.

:40:57.:41:01.

Battleship the future of the action movie, lots of computer-generated

:41:01.:41:06.

graphics, based on a computer game, a huge amount of technology

:41:06.:41:11.

involved? It is something that Hollywood does fantastically. They

:41:11.:41:15.

do these movies, with all the bells and whistles. They do it incredibly

:41:15.:41:25.

well. I think the adult dramas are still very much independent.

:41:25.:41:29.

thing which intrigues me about films like this is the level of

:41:29.:41:33.

security around it, the scripts which a security codes and

:41:33.:41:39.

encryptions. They are so scared about piracy. I had another picture

:41:39.:41:46.

come out a few weeks ago, and two days after its release, I was in my

:41:46.:41:53.

little local Asian restaurant, in New York, and the owner said,

:41:53.:41:58.

wonderful film. I said, where did you see it, did you see it round

:41:58.:42:07.

the corner? He said, no, I watch DVD, Chinese subtitles. That was

:42:07.:42:11.

two days after the film came out. You were born in Ballymena, in

:42:11.:42:16.

Antrim, and you have spoken in the past about being able to watch Ian

:42:16.:42:20.

Paisley perform as a politician, as a preacher, and how that was one

:42:20.:42:24.

thing which got you interested in acting? Well, he was like a

:42:24.:42:31.

firebrand, a throwback to some 19th century preacher, you know? Very,

:42:31.:42:38.

very intimidating. But extraordinary. I remember a couple

:42:38.:42:48.
:42:48.:42:50.

of times creeping into his Gospel Hall to hear him. Big, big man. I'm

:42:50.:42:55.

6ft 4, he was my height, twice as broad. Pretty electrifying. Do you

:42:55.:43:01.

go back to Belfast occasionally? Yes, I go back, my mum and sisters

:43:01.:43:09.

still live there. But it is no longer home. Famously, you're the

:43:09.:43:19.

voice of Aslan in the Narnia films, but you also play bad guys as well

:43:19.:43:23.

in other films. I do not really care what the genre is, as long as

:43:23.:43:28.

it is good quality. Does that mean that even though you have done a

:43:28.:43:31.

large spread of blockbusters, that actually, you're attracted to going

:43:31.:43:37.

back to do a bit more theatre and a bit more art-house stuff? Yes, very

:43:37.:43:43.

much so, I need to get back on stage again. Why? I feel I owe

:43:43.:43:47.

something to the world of theatre, that is where I started. It is

:43:47.:43:52.

great to do, especially if you have got a classic play. It is great to

:43:52.:44:01.

be in front of an audience. It predates cinema by 4,000 years. You

:44:01.:44:05.

feel you have to pay homage to it every now and again. For example,

:44:06.:44:10.

when you played Oskar Schindler, you were playing something which

:44:10.:44:16.

had meaning, which had a huge connection with the audience...

:44:16.:44:22.

was very intense, obviously, we had a lot of Israeli actors and

:44:22.:44:31.

actresses playing Holocaust victims, and there were many evenings when

:44:31.:44:35.

they would come back to the hotel, and we would try to meet them in

:44:35.:44:40.

the bar and buy them a drink, there were some very, very emotional

:44:40.:44:45.

scenes, and the cast found it hard hat times to hang up those things

:44:45.:44:54.

on the dressing room door. We all became very, very close. Ralph

:44:54.:45:00.

Fiennes is one of my oldest friends now. We have formed a little club.

:45:00.:45:06.

You had a very bad motorcycle accident. I did, in the year 2000.

:45:06.:45:14.

Did that change things? It means I never get on a motorbike again. I

:45:14.:45:24.
:45:24.:45:26.

broke my pelvis in two places, I nearly died, all that stuff. Did it

:45:26.:45:31.

have any impact on the physicality? Strangely enough, no. I had

:45:32.:45:38.

fantastic surgeons. I have got bits of titanium in my body and stuff.

:45:38.:45:48.
:45:48.:45:53.

I'm going to play LBJ. The former President? It's a film called the

:45:53.:45:56.

Butler. Are you playing him as a good or bad guy because he has a

:45:56.:46:01.

mixed press? He has a mixed press, yes, and there are two or three

:46:01.:46:06.

colourful scenes you know. Excellent. Thank you very much

:46:06.:46:11.

indeed. Thank you. Thank you. actor, Liam Neeson promising to

:46:11.:46:14.

hang up his light sabre and return to the theatre. Government

:46:14.:46:19.

ministers will be glad to put the last few weeks behind them no doubt,

:46:19.:46:22.

a Budget not welcomed, arguments within the coalition and petrol

:46:22.:46:26.

chaos. How do they gain the momentum. Grant Shapps joins me now.

:46:26.:46:31.

Good morning. Tim far Ron from the Liberal Democrats making it very

:46:31.:46:33.

clear that unless there are substantial changes to the green

:46:33.:46:37.

paper on security, he's going to block it. Aren't you going to have

:46:37.:46:42.

to start trimming it again, just as you did on the Health Bill?

:46:42.:46:45.

most important thing is that people here feel they are safe and being

:46:45.:46:48.

protected from anything which might go wrong and terrorists might do.

:46:48.:46:51.

You have already got the powers with things like telephones,

:46:51.:46:55.

including mobile phones, things like your mail that comes through

:46:55.:46:59.

the post, obviously as technology changes, you need to keep track

:46:59.:47:04.

with those things. I'm a great civil libertarian and wouldn't want

:47:04.:47:08.

to see anything which is overarching, which is why these

:47:08.:47:12.

proposals are not to do what Labour say, set up a massive database,

:47:12.:47:16.

just store information for a year in case, under specific

:47:16.:47:18.

circumstances and properly authorised, something is required

:47:18.:47:22.

in terms of when communication went backwards and forwards, not even

:47:22.:47:25.

the contents of it. That's a reasonable approach so the public

:47:25.:47:28.

would expect Government to protect in that kind of way. Tim far Ron

:47:28.:47:31.

says that's not reasonable. He's got serious concerns about this, so

:47:31.:47:35.

the Liberal Democrats are wrong and as the Government, will you hold

:47:35.:47:39.

firm? In the green room, I saw his interview, and he actually said, we

:47:40.:47:44.

need to make sure that we are a Government that appreciates and

:47:44.:47:47.

protects people's civil liberties. By the way, part the way through

:47:47.:47:49.

passing the freedom Bill in the House of Lords right now, that

:47:49.:47:54.

strips away many of the things the last Government tried to do to be

:47:54.:47:59.

overarching and overbearing on many of our freedoms. We won't introduce

:47:59.:48:03.

anything that's overbearing. far Ron said he was prepared to

:48:03.:48:09.

kill this? He actually is very, very keen to make sure, as am I and

:48:09.:48:14.

everybody in this Government, to make sure preem are properly

:48:14.:48:18.

protected and to have up-to-date modern laws, that won't be

:48:18.:48:22.

overbearing and it will make sure that it's put on the same status as

:48:22.:48:27.

using a mobile phone at the moment. -- make sure people are properly

:48:27.:48:29.

protected. We are discussing this on a day when the Home Office

:48:29.:48:34.

website has been hacked into. How concerned are you about that?

:48:34.:48:38.

concerning in that it shows how reliant we are on modern technology

:48:38.:48:43.

and Internet sites and so on. Chuka made a very good point which is

:48:43.:48:48.

that people rely on a site like that for information like community

:48:48.:48:51.

safety. It's important that people realise there's no advantage in

:48:51.:48:55.

trying to block sites. The site is up and running right now, I checked.

:48:55.:48:59.

This is the modern world we live in and people will try to do these

:48:59.:49:05.

things. Let's talk about your Government. Pasty-gate, granny tax,

:49:05.:49:10.

Tory dinners in Downing Street, incompetence allegations over the

:49:10.:49:13.

petrol non-crisis. What's gone wrong? There are two ways you can

:49:13.:49:17.

govern. You can either look for tomorrow's headline, in which case

:49:17.:49:21.

you spend all your time trying to do the soft stories which don't

:49:21.:49:26.

make much difference in the long- term but makior popular, or YouGov

:49:26.:49:30.

earn with the horizon in view all the time and trying to make sure

:49:30.:49:33.

you do things that are right for the country. If you look at the

:49:33.:49:37.

tough times that we live in, the fact that we have brought a

:49:37.:49:41.

coalition together of two parties willing to try to make the tough

:49:41.:49:44.

decisions, halfway through, is it a surprise that things are difficult

:49:44.:49:49.

- not at all. But Governments... It's important to carry on and make

:49:49.:49:53.

sure we introduce the changes needed. Governments have to make

:49:53.:49:55.

arguments and persuade people, take people with them. Isn't there a

:49:55.:49:59.

risk that people are thinking either this is an incompetent

:49:59.:50:04.

Government or a Government that's not all in it together? We can

:50:04.:50:08.

spend an interview talking about pasties and so on or we can talk

:50:08.:50:13.

about the big issues. If you ask what people really understand about

:50:13.:50:17.

the Government, the number one thing people would say is, this is

:50:17.:50:21.

a Government that appreciates we mustn't end up like Greece, we

:50:21.:50:25.

can't afford to let the country go bust and that's where we were

:50:25.:50:28.

headed under the previous administration. If you ask people

:50:28.:50:31.

what has the Government got right, it's the deficit reduction, it's

:50:31.:50:34.

ensuring that Britain stays on the straight and level. Keeps the

:50:35.:50:38.

triple A rating. The opinion polls suggest you are a party of chums

:50:38.:50:43.

and that this idea of eliteism and a clique at the top of the

:50:43.:50:47.

Government is gathering pace. How damaging is that? The most

:50:47.:50:52.

important thing is, you mentioned the Budget before, look what it did

:50:52.:50:57.

to two million people, took them out of paying any tax at all.

:50:57.:51:01.

Taxpayers... 24 million people whose tax bill each week will be

:51:01.:51:05.

reduced by �6.30. This is the Government that understands that

:51:05.:51:10.

what you need to do is govern for everyone. Like the pasties, if we

:51:10.:51:15.

want an obsessive discussion about who knows when, for the record, I

:51:15.:51:19.

didn't even know David Cameron before I was elected to this

:51:19.:51:23.

Parliament. What's worse, to be accused of incompetence or being a

:51:23.:51:26.

party of the rich? Not being prepared to take on the big changes

:51:26.:51:29.

this country needs is the worst thing. Like the welfare reform.

:51:29.:51:33.

It's interesting revealing that you sit down for an interview like this

:51:33.:51:37.

and talk about the tittle-tattle rather than the welfare Bill we

:51:37.:51:40.

passed into a law which means from now on, people will always be

:51:40.:51:45.

better off in work, rather than on welfare and taking people out of

:51:45.:51:50.

being trapped on benefits. Those are the real issues, the deficit

:51:50.:51:54.

reduction and things that change this country like Michael Gove's

:51:54.:51:58.

education reforms. We can talk about pasties and who knows who for

:51:58.:52:04.

how long but it matters how YouGov earn the country. Tax returns,

:52:04.:52:08.

should the rest of the Government publish these things? I have

:52:08.:52:12.

nothing against that. Transparency is a good thing. My department,

:52:12.:52:15.

Communities and Local Government, for example, we publish everything

:52:15.:52:19.

over �500, publish the entire Government credit card and it's

:52:19.:52:23.

really... Do you have faith in politicians, and more so if they

:52:23.:52:28.

were more open? Perhaps that's a good idea and maybe we should have

:52:28.:52:30.

public institutions and maybe the BBC journalists should release

:52:30.:52:35.

theirs so everything is transparent. Very quickly. Some people say you

:52:35.:52:38.

should be party chairman. Do you want to be? We have a party

:52:38.:52:41.

chairman, I love what I'm doing with housing and it's important to

:52:41.:52:46.

get enough homes built. That's why I'm focused entirely on that job.

:52:46.:52:50.

Thank you very much. Over to Naga for the news headlines. The leader

:52:50.:52:55.

of the biggest teaching union, the NASUWT, says her union is very

:52:55.:52:58.

serious about further strike action in its dispute with the Government

:52:58.:53:01.

over pay and conditions. Christine Keates told the programme

:53:01.:53:05.

that strikes would be a last resort and she said that her union members

:53:05.:53:09.

had no intention to walk out during the summer exam season.

:53:09.:53:13.

We would be looking I think towards the autumn term, but we first would

:53:13.:53:18.

be looking at escalating our action short of strike action and we have

:53:18.:53:22.

been working with parent groups, PTA groups, Governors, to talk to

:53:22.:53:26.

them about what our real concerns are and try to engage them in our

:53:26.:53:30.

campaign of trying to get the Government to listen to the serious

:53:30.:53:33.

concerns of the profession. President of the Liberal Democrats,

:53:33.:53:37.

Tim far Ron, has said that his party is prepared to kill the

:53:37.:53:41.

Government's proposals to monitor people's e-mail communications and

:53:41.:53:44.

Internet activities. The Home Secretary said today that a Bill

:53:44.:53:47.

will be included in the Queen's speech next month.

:53:47.:53:51.

A man has been charged with a public order offence after a

:53:51.:53:53.

swimmer interrupted yesterday's boat race between Oxford and

:53:54.:53:57.

Cambridge universities. He's been named as Trenton Oldfield who is

:53:57.:54:01.

aged 35 and lives in the Whitechapel area of London. The

:54:01.:54:05.

race was restarted after a half hour delay and Cambridge won. One

:54:05.:54:08.

of the Oxford rowers collapsed after the race and is said to be in

:54:08.:54:12.

a stable condition in hospital. That is all from me this morning.

:54:12.:54:16.

The next news is on BBC One at 1.35. Now back to James.

:54:16.:54:20.

Thank you very much indeed. Now, several Oxbridge colleges are

:54:20.:54:23.

famous for their world class choirs and the choir of New College Oxford

:54:23.:54:27.

is one of the most renowned for its beautiful and distinctive sound.

:54:27.:54:33.

During term time, the choir sings at the daily services in the

:54:33.:54:36.

college's atmospheric 14th century chapel. They also tour

:54:37.:54:40.

internationally and have made many recordings. They have a new album

:54:40.:54:45.

of sacred music out now called Illumina, Music of Light. So who

:54:45.:54:50.

better to perform for us this Sunday morning. We are delighted to

:54:50.:54:54.

welcome the choir to the studio with his choir, Edward Higginbottom,

:54:54.:54:59.

what kind of sound are you creating with the choir? The new sound is

:54:59.:55:02.

good vocal tuition, we teach them to sing, but the really important

:55:02.:55:06.

thing is that every one of them releases their personality with the

:55:06.:55:11.

singing. I want each of them to be individually personalised in their

:55:11.:55:14.

singing and bring to it their energy and commitment in that way.

:55:14.:55:20.

I imagine this takes a huge amount of work. Felix, what is your day

:55:20.:55:25.

like? Well, on a Monday we have two hours' practise, one at lunch time

:55:25.:55:31.

and one in the evening. Then every single day of the week, we have a

:55:31.:55:34.

service and a lunch time practise, apart from Wednesday, so it's hard

:55:34.:55:38.

work, but if you are committed it's good fun. You have time for school

:55:38.:55:42.

work and family and fun, do you? Yes, because before the services we

:55:42.:55:47.

have something called choir prep so we can do that. Is it something

:55:47.:55:52.

that is different to other choirs? You were saying you are less formal,

:55:52.:56:01.

more relaxed? Look at us. No roughs. Not today at least. OK. Great. Look.

:56:01.:56:03.

Thank you all very much. Looking forward to it. That's almost it for

:56:03.:56:07.

today. Thanks to all my guests, Andrew is back next week and he'll

:56:07.:56:11.

be joined here in the studio by the Labour Leader, Ed Miliband. That's

:56:11.:56:16.

at the usual time of 9 o'clock, but note, on BBC Two, motor racing on

:56:16.:56:21.

BBC One next week, the Andrew Marr show on BBC Two. For now, we leave

:56:21.:56:29.

you with the choir of New College Oxford singing the Lord Bless You &

:56:29.:56:39.
:56:39.:56:39.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds

:56:39.:57:24.

Keep You. Enjoy the rest of your # And be gracious unto you

:57:24.:57:29.

# The Lord bless you and keep you # The Lord make His face to shine

:57:29.:57:36.

upon you # The Lord lift up the light of his

:57:36.:57:42.

countenance upon you # The Lord lift up the light of his

:57:42.:57:46.

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