15/04/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Just something I'd really like to

say before we get going. 100 years ago today, the Titanic sank,

killing more than 1500 people. We've had films, mini-series,

cruises. We've been treating it like a national celebration. Will

we doing this for fatal air crashes? I may be completely alone

in this but I think it's been sordid and tasteless and dull and I

hope after today we hear nothing more about this sad story except

from the driest of dry historians. Got that off my chest, now, our

trio with brio to take us through the papers today. Deputy editor of

The Times, Keith Blackmore. Europe editor of Time magazine, Catherine

Mayer. And the Tory backbench MP, David Davis.

Life at the top is never easy. The BBC is looking for a new boss and

its chairman says he wants someone with the wisdom of Aristotle and

the striking partner of Wayne Rooney. David Cameron will wish he

had a few like that in his cabinet after another week of budget revolt

us. But Labour in the Bradford by- election have had a torrid time. If

the coalition is doing so badly, why aren't they more popular? Ed

Miliband joins me live. Rows over new powers to snoop on charities in

the revolt over tax for charities with Paddy Ashdown. He says the

Home Secretary is treating us like a nation of suspects. The Lion King

is just one of the worldwide hits by Tim Rice, who picks up another

of Ward for his mantelpiece. -- a world.

Plus, to wake us all up come at the end a blast of something different.

That is the Indian music maestro, Raghu Dixit, who sings in the

studio. First the news. Good morning. There is pressure on

the Government to rethink its plans on charitable donations. The Sunday

Times has said the move will put people off giving large sums of

money to good causes. But a letter by 40 philanthropists to the

Telegraph slams the proposals. The body that represents every

doctor in the UK has criticised its strategy on obesity. It says

current measures on obesity do not go far enough. It says it more

advertising may be needed to prevent a public health crisis.

Bigger, heavier, fatter. Almost one in every four adults in the UK is

now obese. Are ballooning waist lines have been labelled the single,

biggest threat to public health. 21 medical organisations representing

more than 2000 doctors have come together to figure out what needs

to be done. There will start with a three-month review on different

ways to beat the bulge, from introducing fact taxes the to

promoting exercise. We will look at individual pet behaviour which is

eating less and exercise more. Look at what treatments work, there is

certainly a place for surgery. But look at what society can do -

advertising, sponsorship, possibly taxation. Leaders say tackling

obesity will need measures as tough as those to fight smoking. An

attack and junk food advertising and things like letting Coca-Cola

and McDonald's sponsor the 20 told Olympics sent the wrong message.

Findings will be sent to politicians, doctors and the public

later this year. This time, doctors say they are determined not to let

their findings sit on a shelf, gathering dust.

United Nations Security Council has agreed to the immediate deployment

to Syria, of a small team of observers to monitor a ceasefire

which appears to be in danger of collapsing. Kofi Annan has welcomed

the decision and it is the first time all five permanent members

have agreed on a resolution aimed at ending the violence. Steelmaking

is expected to return to one of Britain's biggest plants this week,

more than two years after production stock. The furnace is

being relit to date on Teesside. 1,700 people are already employed

on the site and the total is expected to rise.

Prayers have been said at the site in the Atlantic Ocean weather

Titanic sank a century ago. A memorial service was held on the

Balmoral which has been retracing the route of the Titanic. Around 50

of the passengers on the ship have a direct family connection to the

sinking. That's all from me, I will be back

just before 10 am with the headlines.

Now to the front pages as usual. The Independent on Sunday, we hear

about the nanny state. Nick Clegg is going to recruit 65,000 state

nannies. The Sunday Telegraph is announcing this great charity row

we will be talking about, his going to result in a Government retreat.

The Mail on Sunday, has a fascinating account that some of

the papers have similar ones, of the extraordinary story of the

Briton murdered in China. It suggests he was murdered by a

leading politician's wife, who has been arrested. The Sunday Express,

the Titanic souvenir magazine. But also the closure of Remploy

factories to employ a lot of disabled people. And the Sun, has

Danni Minogue. Finally we have the Sunday Times, again on the

charity's issue, the Tories turned on George Osborne. Ba three guest

paper reviewers and we will start with Catherine Mayer. You have

picked up one of the bigger stories in all of the papers? We have to

look at this China story. There are so many things interesting about it.

I would say there is probably a Chinese proverb about the strewth

being stranger than fiction. -- truth. We are looking at the story

of Neil Heywood he was found in November, dead in a hotel room.

business man who has been in China for a long time. To begin with,

nine of the Chinese authorities or the British authorities seem to

take seriously, the concerned there was something fishy about his death.

The original cause of death was given as too much alcohol. Take us

through what the paper is saying? will also tell you what the papers

are not saying. We are looking at the Mail. They have had a lot of

people trying to research this story. They don't even know which

hotel room he was found in. None of the papers and know this. What ever

happened, there was such speed in terms of trying to brush this story

under the carpet, there was pressure to have him cremated

quickly. The hotel records have gone, people have been going door

to door to these hotels. What is now emerging is according, the

sources are a bit of a, but there is a Chinese website that is an

anti-communist website and is coming out with a lot of this.

According to them he was poisoned by cyanide. Also allegations he

might have been having an affair with the wife of a key official. He

was linked it to the key official Gu Kalai. The reason this matters

is this isn't just a social, sexy story, it is China getting the new

regime in place and it looked like an orderly transition. Had there

not been this regime change about to happen - which had been planned

for years - we wouldn't have known about this. The Times, has been

leading with his story for quite a few days now. You have been pushing

this and pushing this. Presumably you knew there was more to this

than met the eye? I am sure the papers have things they still feel

they can print. You don't want to go out too far with this. We are

still wondering why he died. There are plenty of theories about that

and as soon as someone has that, it will be a big moment. Let's move on

to the Grand National. You are a sports editor, we have had two

horses dying this time. It has become an annual toll hasn't it?

What struck me about this race, it is the last one at a 52 years the

BBC have done. It has become a feature of British life. For the

final race, they have this wonderful finish which could not be

closer, as the Sunday Times and many other papers have demonstrated.

It was an extraordinary race, but all of the talk is going to be over

the two horses that died. I was very struck by Clare Balding, who

is a brilliant reporter, she said, as you probably know synchronise

dislodged its rider, Tony McCoy, before the race started. When he

took the horse up to the fence, Clare Balding said, the horse does

not look up for it. Which struck me as a very sound judgment. She

immediately backtracked, because she realised it was a dangerous

remark. The Sun has picked it up. The race proceeded, and in due

course, synchronised was killed. The horse, yet again knocked off

his rider but jumped the next five fences on his own before breaking

his leg. It is a very poignant moment. It tells you something

about the dangers of the fences and the instinct of the animal, to

carry on without the rider. Desperate to get over them.

David, the political story of the day. It is in every paper. It

should be everybody turns on Osborne over tax. Never take on the

Catholic Church, the NUM, they should have added Chadha Tees --

charities to that. Everybody is supporting charities. It is a

mistake, not the way to deal with the sort of problems you do get

with bogus charities. Do you think George Osborne had any idea what he

was getting himself into when he passed this? Presumably it was put

in front of him by officials. of the things about the modern

budget process, lots of all auctions go on before. Parties

harvest all the popular bits first, and now all the unpopular Brits are

coming out. The destruction that did not help him in assessing some

of the probability of these taxes. If you turn to the Sunday Telegraph,

they are saying, that it is dead. This tax change. The Sunday

Telegraph has a relationship with the Tory party and you would expect

them probably to get it right. you think it is probably the case?

They will find another way of doing it. Mout of 160,000 charities, the

Revenue challenged 100. What will happen is they will change the way

they assess the charities, not the tax. Where does this leave the Big

Society idea? One of the weaknesses, it seems to be an assault on the

Big Society idea. Clearly, charities have a big part in the

Big Society. Some of the big charities depend on huge donations

from very wealthy people. For most people, this is not tax evasion. It

may be tax reduction, it is a good cause. What has happened over the

last couple of weeks, David? There has been this, the snooping thing,

pasties, petrol, a series of what appeared to be pitfalls? On the

snooper Charter, were the Government is planned to follow

everybody's telephone calls. Not the content, but he you call. You

see this harvesting going on again. Nick Clegg chaired the committee

that puts on these authoritarian ideas through, the snoopers charter

and secret trials. Now he is suddenly saying I want to do

something different. You are seeing a change in the relationship inside

Government. At the washing coalitions on the Continent, you

always see the small party manoeuvring to get the credit and

leave the big party with the problem. It is rooted in the nature

of coalition Government? Partly that, partly unforced errors, and a

change in the relationship between the press and the Government, which

has also suddenly broken down. Three things have led to long-term

You've taken... The other big story from the States is that Mitt Romney

is now that Republican candidate. It is not over yet, but it is over.

We can assume the election will be Mitt Romney against Obama, which is

what everybody had been assuming all along until the Tea Party

through people up. I find it very interesting. This piece is saying

only a fool would count out Romney and that is right, but not for

these reasons. It goes back to what David was saying with some of

Cameron's problems. The real problem room has his authenticity.

There are similarities between them. The sense they belong to an elite,

face say what people want them to save rather than what they believe.

Cameron is quite good at dealing with people, however, where Romany

seems to record almost everybody as a complete conundrum. -- from the.

Strange sayings he keeps coming out with. It is a problem. It is. The

worst problem during his campaign was when one of his advisers

described him as like a lecture sketch. Something which you shake

and it loses its delineation again. The idea that he is this blank that

you can project on to is a big problem. Obviously, however, Obama

has huge problems. This piece is right in the sense that only a fool

would discount Romany's chances. You have a David Hockney story

about smoking. I would like to get to the Robin Gibb story as well. A

lot of death in the papers, to put it bluntly at the moment. That

iconic man from the Bee Gees is probably on his way out. I think so.

He is in a coma. This is his second serious... The second time he has

been close to death. We don't talk much about death in the papers. It

is a depressing subject and yet it is something that is part of

everybody's life. You are very heavily involved in editing a book

by Philip Gould, who viewers may remember gave an interview shortly

before he died, about how to die. The right way to to approach death.

The very moving piece by his daughter in the Times Magazine

yesterday. Philip wrote a series of articles for the Times last year

about his battle, to use a bad word, with cancer. They were very well

received. It also seemed to be cruelly true throughout his illness,

every time he got a prognosis, it would turn out that he would get

the bad end of it, the bad verdict. When he was given a period to live,

it was always the short end. He decided that he wanted to convert

his cancer series into a book about dying. Lessons from the death.

described it to somebody the other day and they said, God, is it a

horror story? I said no, it is a story which will encourage the

debate you are talking about. It should encourage people to face

death and be less afraid of it. had a very moving interview with

him last September and it seemed to me to be all about having control

and dignity and understanding what is going on and not so rendering.

Yes. He got himself into a very good state of doubt it and just

before he died he had a wobble. When he was taken to hospital for

what turned out to be the final time, it looked as if he might die

by drowning, which is the way his father died and he had always

feared. His composure vanished for a second. But fortunately he kept

going and he had three days in which he completely recomposed

himself, dictated a great deal of material in the book... Sounds like

a story of courage. Proper courage. Tories like to talk about the Nani

state. Mr Clegg has declared it official. What this is about his

clade arguing for nannies to come and help youngsters from the age of

two onwards. The idea that the course of your life is set for

every very early. This is part of his social mobility thing. I don't

think it will work because it would cost a fortune. The state is not a

very good parent. In another article in the Sunday Times, it

talks about the care home losing a child 130 times. In other words,

bringing in 65,000 nannies might actually make it worse. All right.

One last story each. I'm going to go with the state... The obesity

Sturge. Doctors saying the state needs to do more, and I agree, but

not in terms of telling individuals what to do, but in terms of

tackling big food. Our life expectancies are being radically

shortened because we are in thrall to big food and we eat absolute

rubbish. Taxing it? Taking more money from the poor? But the

problem is that the poor have less life expectancy than the wealthy

because we have a system where it is cheaper to eat badly than it is

to eat well. It costs more to have fresh foods and processed food.

That is crazy. We are going to finish with a couple of light ones,

I hope. Simon Cowell. His programme is not doing as well as it might do,

and we surprise he had a wild affair. He is claiming to have an

affair. This is a very big exclusive book deal done with the

author Tom Bower, whose books are hard hitting investigative affairs

normally. Of major world figures. And now Simon Cowell. The one fact

it did seem to reveal is that... He has got a strange sense of romance.

I had a crush on her, sexy clothes and it was genuine love. All right.

Thank you very much for that. Some glorious spring sunshine in

the south yesterday. It's a wonderful time of year, with

everything budding and bursting and a haze of green - chilly, though,

in many places. So what can we all in many places. So what can we all

expect for the next 24 hours? Chris Fawkes is in the BBC weather centre

and has the answers. Those plants with blossoms on could

be damaged by some night-time frost tonight. Today, sunny spells for

most of us. A few showers around, but not as many as recently. The

lion's share of the showers today will be in eastern areas. Most of

the show was will be light. The vast majority of us will have a dry

day with sunshine. Highs of 12 Celsius but feeling chilly thanks

to a cold northerly breeze. Tonight, that cloud will melt away with

light winds. The cold and frosty night, even in towns and cities. In

the countryside, minus four is on the cards. It should be frost-free

for Northern Ireland. The thicker cloud will bring in some patchy

rain in the afternoon. Towards the West, a glorious start to the day

with a little cloud developing, but most places staying dry. Monday

night and into Tuesday, we will see low-pressure bring in a band of

heavy rain across the country. Snow for a time in the Scottish

mountains. As the rain clears on Tuesday, it will be followed by

sunshine and blustery showers. Temperatures of around 13 Celsius.

This swirly pattern is characteristic of slope -- low-

characteristic of slope -- low- pressure, which will be slow and

whether -- slow-moving at the weekend.

I'm not sure we like swirly patterns!

And so life inside the coalition, which has been a tad tetchy of late,

with some dropped balls, leaks and bleats. It was the Liberal

Democrats in the House of lords who forced the Government to change

tack on health reform and now two other key pieces of proposed

legislation are under attack - new restrictions on tax relief for big

charity donations and the new powers for security services to

monitor emails and text messages. Paddy Ashdown helped broker the

original Tory-Lib Dem deal. Welcome. Can I ask first of all

about your current expectations and feelings on this new surveillance

package of measures? You did say in an article this week that you

thought this was turning us into a nation of suspects. How seriously

do you take these measures? Good morning, Andrew. The people who

turned us into a nation of suspects were Labour, who we introduced a

vast pond into which the security services and the state could fish

without any controls. Thanks to Labour's proposals, the government

now has a right to know and can demand access to your telephone

records, about who you spoke to for the last year, whenever they wish,

without constraint. There's a problem and then there are some

principles we have to observe. The problem is that it has always been

accepted, and I accept it, that the state has a right to monitor the

communications of its citizens where there is a real case that

there is a serious crime being committed or some threat to the

security of the state. The principle is that that is always

done on an individual basis, politically or judicially

controlled, and where there is good evidence to support her case. We

now have a situation where proposals put in by Labour, which

we opposed, are about to be expanded. How do we deal with that?

There's a need to expand it because the criminals and terrorists now

have access to new mechanisms of communication which can't be

adequately monitored. There is a solution to this problem, which is

to bring the communications interception legislation up to date

so that we are able to monitor those who are threatening the

security of the state, but make it subject to individual monitoring,

applied for by the security services on the basis of evidence

and politically controlled. So if that doesn't happen, if these

proposals for general fishing expeditions in these new areas go

forward, will you try to stop it in the House of Lords? Hears the basic

point. -- heroes. You can't create a nation of suspects. You can't

create a fishing pool into which the security services have a right

to intervene where every it feels like and subject to no controls

whatsoever. If it comes forward in that form, and my guess is it will

not, but that is not something the Lib Dems will find acceptable. We

opposed Labour's propositions, we are not likely to go ahead with an

expansion of the proposition we didn't like in the first place. But

if this is going to come forward to say we will deal with the new means

of communications, but we will make it subject to the basic principles,

individually based, politically and judicially controlled, evidence-

based, that is a sensible way forward. You would expect these

changes before the Queen's Speech? Can you also reflect on the fact

that it was Nick Clegg who was sitting in charge of the committee

that agreed this? Your own leader. I heard David Davies say that. Not

for the first time, he is completely wrong. What happened was

that the committee in which Nick Clegg sits was brought the problem

and Nick Clegg said go ahead, let's come up with proposals to do with

that problem. But none of those proposals have yet come forward.

There has been no sight of a detailed proposal. It is right that

he should say there's a problem, let's find a way to deal with it,

but it isn't also right to say that they should stick to the principles

that Lib Dems believe in. There appears to be another major retreat

going on over the tax treatment of rich individuals giving money to

charities. Is that something you would welcome? A mistake that needs

to be unwound. Let's say there is a certain period of stumble for to

this on behalf of the government, chiefly on the conservative side.

There's a problem. It is simply not open to the kind of simplistic

solution that Labour grabs hold of for opportune estate reasons and I

was surprised to hear David Davies referred to it as well. I'm

President of UNICEF UK, I know exactly how these are hitting

serious big and small charities, I know the consequences. But let's

recognise there is a problem. What is the government trying to do?

Trying to make sure the rich pay their taxes. Just imagine, Andrew,

for a moment, that everybody did this. Nobody said -- people said I

will contribute to a charity of my choice. No taxes, no hospitals, no

schools, and the welfare. There's a sensible balance to be struck. If

the government has to read calibrate, a retreat if you like,

in order to find that sensible balance, it is right and proper

that they should do so it and they have already said they will go into

a period of consultation. I'm sure a sensible balance can be found.

Let's not pretend there isn't a problem. If some of the rich are

dodging their income tax by putting the money into charities, the

people who pay for that other poor, schools, hospitals, armed services.

We want people to pay taxes, we don't want to kill off charity. The

idea that you can allow people to sideline money that they should be

put into our taxes, to the charity about it -- their choice, is

In the first phase of this coalition Government, a lot of

people thought the Liberal Democrat's personality was being

submerged by the bigger party. That is not happening at the moment. Do

you feel you are into a different phase of this coalition Government,

were the party is clear in its profile? I think the Liberal

Democrats will prosper to the extent we are able to show we can

take the hard knocks of governing Britain at a very difficult time,

as a result of the economic crisis left by the last Government. In the

end that is what will matter. Whilst a ring that we have to show

identity and I think we are doing both of those things. Are we

getting the benefit of it from the electorate? Not yet, but it will

come. With all of your experience in the Balkans and so on, is there

any chink of light do you think in the Syrian situation at the moment?

I don't think there is. Undercard we are not playing, I know Cathy

Ashton held the famous Three plus three to deal with this issue over

the last couple of days, but we are missing an important player. But

there is one country that can play an increasing role by the way of

the western Balkans and the eastern Mediterranean, it is Turkey. And

Turkey is playing a very constructive role. Which country is

going to put down an area of Syria which refugees will be protected

in? Turkey is able to do so and are willing to do so. We need to forget

thinking about this in Western terms, and bring in the new players,

of which Turkey is one. It is the absence of Turkey playing that role

which is inhibiting us having the outcome we should. It was more than

40 years ago that youthful songwriter, Tim Rice, hooked up

with Andrew Lloyd Webber, and hit shows like Jesus Christ Superstar,

Evita and Joseph broke box office records. Collaborations with Abba,

Elton John and Disney Studios brought more success and The Lion

King has just become the most lucrative musical ever to be staged

on Broadway. Tonight, Tim Rice, receives the special Olivier award

for a lifetime of success. So is he sitting back now and counting his

royalties? Sir Tim, welcome. You have a lot of awards, but this

is a big one? I guess it is, I am genuinely surprised. When you have

been around for a long time, as an old codger, people recognise that

fact. I have not done anything for about 10 years. This is a story

based on a 1950s novel? Yes, by James Jones called From Here to

eternity, which was a film starring Burt Lancaster, and it won many

Oscars. It is the story of American troops in Hawaii just before Pearl

Harbor. It is a double love-story. It has been great fun to work on

from here to maternity with young people. I am working with a great

young director and composer. I need a bit of youth on my side. You were

asked recently what you get back together with Andrew Lloyd Webber

and work with him again? You said no, you need youth, something else?

I did not say never again. The headline writer had a slightly off

day that day. But we had a great time in the sun, if you like. It is

often a mistake to go back and try and do something. If it was a great

brilliant idea that trapped us both. But we were a dynamic duo who are

not as dynamic as we were. In this new director, do you have another

Lloyd Webber? It was Stuart's idea and this has a great story. The

story is paramount. The greatest musicals always have a good story.

If you have the choice between a great tale and a great score, if

you only have one, you should go for the story, ideally you should

have both. Musical's are one form of music. But the governments are

making a change to legislation on live music and the performance of

music, which I think he would welcome? I welcome it enormously.

Live music, whether it is in the theatre, pubs or on the street is

the one form of entertainment you cannot build Lake -- Bootle like.

It is important small musical events can take place with live

musicians. It is how they learn their craft without going on to a

TV reality show. At so lewdly. The problem was there was too much

bureaucracy? It was too difficult for people to put on live events?

Because of the red tape, people were just putting on records. But

there is too much recorded music, you cannot go out into a lift, the

shop or a taxi without some terrible music blasting in your ear.

This change goes to both houses of Commons next week. Big success for

the back benches and a big success for the campaign? It is fantastic.

One other story is the suggestion wind farms have gone far enough, no

more wind farms will be necessary, according to a minister in one of

the papers? He is so right. I have been offered a lot of cash to put a

wind farm up in Scotland. It is insanity these machines, but don't

actually do their job very well, rich idiots like me should benefit

from it and put everybody's bills up. It is a crime. I am delighted,

the U-turn, the wind is changing. Thanks a very much for joining us.

Local elections are looming. We've heard a lot about the battle in

London, but these sprawl almost everywhere and the opposition ought

to be in chipper mood, what with some real post-Budget

embarrassments for the Prime Minister. But a disastrous by-

election in Bradford, lost to George Galloway and the Respect

party matches some pretty grim polling on Labour's economic plan.

The Opposition leader, Ed Miliband, joins me now.

You have just come back from Bradford were you promised to go

and listen and take the temperature and talk to people. What did they

take you and what have you concluded? I think there was some

local factors at play in Bradford. There is general unhappiness with

the economic situation, partly to do with the national Government. We

did not engage sufficiently with the Muslim community. Many of them

voted for George Galloway. There are probably wider lessons that

mainstream politics and a sense that somehow people don't

necessarily turn away from the Conservatives and turn to Labour.

We cannot assume that. The question is why? One of the things George

Galloway has said his there is simply not enough clear, aggressive

leadership by Labour when it comes to the big economic picture. If

Labour had been banging the drum for Keynesian is an, attacking the

idea of austerity in politics, pushing ahead for investment,

sounding a bit more like old Labour, it would have been heard more?

don't believe that, you have to look at the bigger picture. You

characterise the situation in your introduction but I do not see it

that way. The Government had the benefit of the doubt or losing it

because of the failure of their economic plan. And now the

unfairness piled on top of that. Let's remember, we hadn't heard

this today, but a cut in the 50 pence tax rate, a cut in taxes the

millionairess, funded by millions paying more. Pensioners, we will

have a vote over this next week. We have seen on Furnace from his

budget and that is why the wheels are coming of this Government. I

have been up to Carlisle and then down to Southampton, we are talking

about Labour's have different priorities on taxation, cutting

energy bills. Your characterisation of Labour's position is not one I

would share. Bradford was a bad result, we have got to learn the

lessons. But I see a Labour Party that is getting back in touch with

people and a Government out of touch with people. One of the

arguments going on after the Bradford result is there was a gap

opening up between huge numbers of people in this country and the

political world, generally. People see you as being a bit the same and

when it comes to stories like Dome has been caught offering access and

cash for access, that turns people's stomachs. There is a sense

in Westminster, they don't get it. They're getting huge amounts of

money. The party donor ship thing has to be dealt with. It cannot be

put off for much longer. You're right, we have to change the way we

fund politics and take the big money out of politics. Why do I say

that? You are right to say people... When people don't vote for the

mainstream parties they believe politics cannot change my life and

I will protest. Part of the reason people think that is because

politics is not been run in their interests. It is one for the

interests of those at the top, a few people who can give good money.

I have heard people saying we will have changed in political funding

for the last few years, but nothing has moved. I am going to move on

this, Andrews. Or poor to -- political leaders have to make

decisions that are uncomfortable. We will have a low cap and make it

at �5,000 donation cap. Second we need tougher limits on spending,

more comprehensive limits on spending and lower limits on

spending. And parties will have to diversify were they get their

income from. I am proud of what the Labour Party does in terms of

raising money from its members. I think we do more than any other

political party, but we have to do more. These sound like changes that

would damage Conservative funding much more than they would damage

your funding. Unless you are suggesting the big union cheques

will stop, to? I am. You are? suggesting that. When I am talking

about a �5,000 donation cap, I am talking about the unions as well.

The large donations from the trade unions would no longer happen under

this system. I am not making a unilateral act, but I am proposing

this. The other thing we get from trade unions is the �3 each

individual trade union levy payer pays, people who affiliate to the

Labour Party. 3 million people around this country, nurses,

engineers. To make things clear, there are two kinds of funds to get

from trade unions. One is a one off cheques around election time and

that is where you are proposing the cap. How much of the money? We get

millions of pounds. You want to keep the individual opts out system

works by individuals in trade unions pay money? Let me explain,

at a time when people say politics is too detached from working people,

I value the link with the trade unions. I believe in it. It is

because of the link it provides us to working people around this

country. It is not just that working people founded the Labour

Party, they keep us rooted in our communities now. They continued to

be part of this process, but the large donations under this reform,

and if it is agreed, we need a low cap, they would stop. It's your

proposal was agreed now, what would it have done to your overall

funding at the last election? would have lost millions of pounds,

quite significant. 30 descent, 40%? It is important as a corrective to

what's out there, 40% of our a income came from members and about

40% came from the trade unions and the rest from individual donors and

others. We are talking about a significant change. When it comes

to the individuals you were talking about, the nurses' pay in through

political levy, you could make it more transparent and removed

criticism if people had to opt in, specifically say I want to pay this

levy. Then it would be coming directly from them? You have talked

about transparency, and opting in and opting out. Opting in and out

is not the issue. The real question is, is it clear whether money is

going? I am happy to say it is important. Of course people should

know where their money is going, and that will be looked at as part

of these changes. Let's take the big money out of politics. I hope

Nick Clegg and David Cameron will come forward with their own

proposals, wanting to make changes. It will make things harder for the

political party but it is in the interest of democracy. Politics is

at a low ebb. People's Trust and politics is lower than it has been

for generations. The most depressing thing on the doorstep is

now when people say they are voting Tory or Lib Dem, it is much more

depressing when it is all the same. We have got to take action to

In terms of how people signed up for the political levy, because

people say you could benefit from laziness, you're absolutely against

people being able to obtain rather than say I would like to spend some

money on the Labour Party. I don't think... Why not? The issue is

whether it is transparent where people's money is going, that is

what matters. I am in favour of transparency. I do say this. What

we must not have is an attempt to disenfranchise and exclude millions

of people from the political process at a time when I'm saying,

and others will say, let's have more small donations, to say let's

exclude deceptive people who are affiliated to the Labour people

would be a wrong thing. Transparency, yes, but exclusion,

no. A sense on the national cap on spending. It is carried towards 20

million. -- covertly. I think that is too high. I think it should be

substantially less. If parties can't spend the money, they will be

less likely to try to raise money. You're not for extra public money?

A let me say this. In the current economic circumstances, that is not

practical. What I think needs to be done in the negotiations, let's

look at the existing money spent on politics, let's look at how we can

encourage small donations let's have a low spending cap. The

negotiations will take their course, but let's make a concerted effort

to really grasp this nettle. I don't know how quickly we can get

this reform, but let's try to get the reforms moving. Yes. Let's turn

to some of these elections coming up and elections beyond that. Is it

the case that you were trying to ban Labour MPs from resigning their

seats in order to become mayors of cities all stand as police

commissioners? People have got way ahead of themselves. The national

executive of the Labour Party always go through a Pope -- process

whereby when people want to fight by-elections, they fight that off -

- sign that off. We don't know where there will be Meyers yet.

Speculation is over done. If people want to stand for something, and

that would lead to a by-election, you would not stop them? We fought

six by-election since I became leader and I have -- we have won

five of them. I will fight any by- election that comes along and I am

confident of winning. Isn't it to worry that people like Liam Byrne,

senior Lib Dem, seems to think life outside Westminster, running a big

city, might be more attractive? don't see it that way. He is very

attached to Birmingham, he believes Birmingham can be a laboratory and

show how Labour can make a difference in government. I see

Labour councils sharing what I'm talking about nationally, fairness

in tough times. With different priorities, we can make a

difference. I was in Derby recently, where we are trying to get control

of the council. Even from opposition, they have managed to

keep open children centres and care homes. What I see is the Labour

Party which is fighting these local elections hard and well and showing

that we have different priorities from this government. That is where

politics is moving, the sense that this government is out of touch and

the Labour Party is back in touch. There will be a very interesting

test of that in the local elections. You have to win London. We want to

win everywhere. I'm not saying want to, to show that you are coming

back, you have to win in London. What matters is for the people of

and London and that is why I have been campaigning with Ken

Livingstone, that is why I have Labour wins in London. Whether it

is public transport fares for the educational maintenance allowance

or fair rents... London has always been so caught Labour city. You

really should win London this time. We are doing our best throughout

the country. If you want to anticipate the results, let's see

where we are after the May elections. What would the signal be

if you didn't win London, if Boris was back was back I think I just

gave you the answer. Wait and see. What about the overall national

picture. There have been indications from Labour that if you

took 300 seats, that would be enough. Almost all of the

independent commentators say you need to have 600-700 victories at

least to say we are back in the game. I say this in all

circumstances, I'm not a commentator, I'm not in the

forecasting business, I'm in the business of making a difference to

people's lives. Very few ask me how many seats Labour will gain, they

ask me what I will do to get their son or daughter a job. I say we

will levy a tax on bank as bonuses to put people back to work. If we

want a more relevant politics, let's talk about the issues that

matter to people. One of the pieces of Westminster commentary we have

heard a lot of recently, relating to the sense that the political

class are different, is the debate about tax returns being made public.

We have seen it in the London mayoral election, we have seen it

Bellini been -- bleeding over into Westminster politics with both the

work -- prime minister and the Chancellor suggesting they would

make their tax returns public. perfectly happy. Is this a good

thing in public life? It is kind of inevitable. I challenged George

Osborne and David Cameron on the day of the Budget and I said do you

benefit from 50p tax rate? I thought a lot about that, whether

it was fair. The reason I did it was because if you're coming along

with a Budget that raises taxes on pensioners, raises taxes on working

families, raises taxes on charities and you what personally getting a

benefit that only a few people are getting, only the richest people,

it is a legitimate question. I did not call for the tax return to be

published, but if that is the way things are going, I'm perfectly

happy to do it. You need to be a bit more proactive if things are

going to be moving. Will you say to the Shadow Cabinet, I think the

time has come, let's put our tax returns out there. That is a

discussion we will have. I think what really matters, I've said I

would not be a beneficiary of the 50p tax cut. We don't know whether

the Prime Minister and Chancellor are. But before we get on to the

question of tax returns, let's have transparency. What about people's

assets and overall wealth? This is the problem. You can get to a

situation of medical history, medical records, fitness tests.

There has to be some limits. Speaking for me personally, I'm

very happy to publish my tax return. And spouses. A great discussion

about Nick Clegg's wife. She should have some privacy. Spouses would be

going too far. I do think so, yes. You have to draw some limits.

interesting. Thank you. Now over to Riz Lateef for the news

headlines. Ed Miliband has called for major

changes for the system of funding political parties. He told this

programme Fair should be a cap of �5,000 on donations. He

acknowledged it would mean the end of big payments from the trade

unions to the Labour Party, but he said the political levy paid by

individual union members should continue.

Lord Ashdown has said the government may have to read

calibrate its proposal to limit tax relief on charitable donations.

Lord Ashdown said it was important to clamp down on tax avoidance, but

a sensible balance should be struck. The proposal has been criticised in

today's papers by there Conservative Party treasurer and

more than 40 leading Let's have a look at what's coming

up on the big questions. Good morning. This week David Cameron

launches his big attempt against the European Court of Human Rights.

As Europe created too many rights? And should abortion be a private

matter? This campaigner says it is his duty to dip to dissuade women

from choosing an adaption. Bettany Hughes is here to argue that God is

really a woman. Now for a very long time, sitar

players like Ravi Shankar have created a big following in the west

for traditional Indian music, but you ain't heard nothing yet. There

are some younger performers who are mixing it all up, drinking in some

western influences and making new sounds of their own. Raghu Dixit is

from a traditional family in southern India where western music

was virtually unknown, and he didn't pick up a guitar till he was

nearly 20. His band was a huge hit at Glastonbury last year, playing

on three separate stages during the festival. He's performing at

London's Alchemy festival this week and he's back in the UK in June for

a starring role at the annual WOMAD festival. Raghu, welcome. Great to

have you here. You were a scientist, a microbiologist. If you had hardly

picked up a guitar until late. I was 19, I was challenged to pick

up a guitar and play a song in English by a classmate and that is

how I started. Was this to get women? And not really, he was

getting all the women! The style you are developing is picking a lot

of Western influences, traditional influences, to produce... I don't

know how you would describe it. is the upbringing I have had. At

home it was a very traditional upbringing, but I also went to

college and got exposed to a lot of Western music. We used to swap

tapes. You will be singing a song which is partly in Indian and

partly in English. So at least you can get one single line of Mize

sans! Thank you. That's it for today - thanks to all

my guests. Just time to tell you that there will be no show next

Sunday, we make way for the London Marathon - many years of running

seem to have ruined my knees so I'll just have to watch. But I'll

be back the following week, when I'll be talking to the Prime

Minister, David Cameron. So do join me for that, on Sunday 29th April,

at the usual time and back to the usual channel, BBC One. But for now,

we leave you with Raghu Dixit and # Well I'm in Mumbai, waiting for a

miracle. # Well I'm in Mumbai, waiting for a

miracle. # Well I'm in Mumbai, waiting for a

miracle. # Well I'm in Mumbai, waiting for a

# Well I'm in Mumbai, waiting for a miracle.