27/05/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning, good morning. So, another European embarrassment

causing ripples of concern around the world. Unlike the euro, Britain

is a member of the Eurovision Song Contest. For anybody to busy

staring out of the window or supping beer to have caught up with

it, we didn't do very well. What a patriotic hot we are. Here is how

the Mail on Sunday described the British entry by Englebert

Humperdinck. A forgettable song by a man dressed like a Greek waiter,

delivered with all the passion of a bored librarian stamping gardening

books. Ouch! Joining me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers,

set Harold Evans, a former Sunday Times editor, who knows a thing or

two about working for Rupert Murdoch and another former editor,

now a common list for the Daily Mail, Amanda Platell. Terrible

pictures of dead Syrian children in some of the papers this morning, be

warned. Yet, supporters of the Syrian regime are determined to

attend the Olympics in London. Our government is equally determined to

make sure they don't. Nick Clegg, whose house was surrounded by cuts

protesters yesterday, joins me this morning. We will be talking to him

about the European crisis and our economic woes in Britain. I will

also be asking Germany's deputy finance minister if his country's

hardline stance will end up forcing Greece out of the euro.

And for years, Tracey Emin was cast as the wild child of British art.

She tells me about her new-found peace of mind and her new

exhibition. I wonder why I didn't put that in the show. I should have

done. I really should have put that into the show. You are almost out

of time! After not such a great night at the

Eurovision Song Contest, we do at least have some classy music to end

this morning from The Voice, Tom Jones singing a classic Leonard

Cohen number. # I see you standing on the other

side. The # I don't know how the bridge

has got so wide. We're going to hear more from Tom

and all of the rest later on, but first the news.

There is growing international outrage over the killing of more

than 90 people, 32 of them children, in the Syrian town of Houla.

Hillary Clinton pledged that Washington would work with other

countries to end what she called President Assad's rule by murder

and fear. The United Nations observers were

brought to Houla to see the bodies. They are said to include at least

32 children under the age of 10. Angry men aged the observers to

take photographs, to document the The UN said tank shells had been

used against the civilian population. Hillary Clinton said

the rule of President Assad and his cronies have to come to an end. The

UK is calling for the Security Council to meet soon and speak with

one voice, as it did when deciding to send in the observers. Now we

want to see that same unity and we will be urging that amongst our

colleagues at the Security Council. Swift, robust, united action is

necessary. As bodies are buried in mass graves, the UK wants more

sanctions against the regime. It is also calling for those responsible

to be tried by the International Criminal Court.

The co-chair of the Conservative Party, Lady Warsi, is facing Labour

calls for an inquiry into her accommodation expenses. She

reportedly claimed expanses while staying in London as a friend's

house. She insists that she made an appropriate payment to her friend.

A British soldier has been killed in Helmand province in Afghanistan.

He was from 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh and was killed by an

explosion yesterday while on patrol. His family have been informed.

Campaigners opposed to a trial of genetically modified wheat and

Harbhajan are being kept away from the test site because of fears that

the crop may be damaged. They had been planning a day of action

against an experiment being conducted by Rothamsted Research.

In the middle of fields, a wheat crop is guarded, hidden from view.

The security operation has been in place for some time. I am standing

in a restricted area. The protesters cannot walk across this

footpath because the experiment is taking place behind that white

fence. There was a fear that the crops may be damaged. Researchers

have added 18 to the cereal which gives off the same scent as

greenfly when warning of danger. It is hoped that they will be tricked

into keeping away. Opponents say they are not against the trial in

itself, but they are worried that the surrounding area could be

contaminated. We have gone through a rigorous process where

independent scientists have assessed our work. They have said

that there is virtually zero chance this would happen. But not zero?

science, there is never zero chance of things happening. There is

always a possibility. Even though the risk may be small, it is still

a risk. Any risk can impact on the surrounding environment and local

biodiversity. The local council had to get consent from the Home

Secretary for extra police powers to protect the crop. It is now

hoping for a safe, lawful and Sweden has won this year's Europe

vision Song contest in Azerbaijan. The former Swedish idol contestant

Loreen won by a landslide. She got 327 votes for Euphoria. It wasn't

such a good night for Englebert Humperdinck. He came second from

last. That is all for now. I'll be back

Front pages as usual, the story about the Cabinet minister,

Conservative Party chairman Baroness Warsi. The front page of

the Telegraph, there. Similar, the Sunday Times, top Tory in expenses

scandal. The Scotland on Sunday says that Labour voters, the SNP

hopes, will be the ones that deliver independence to Scotland.

We also have an interesting story with all of the demonstrations

against nuclear power and cuts. You can apparently get special tartan

now, the anti-cuts tartan, and there is also an anti-nuclear

tartan. The Observer and Independent on Sunday both go for

the story about the murdered children and the others massacred

in Syria. There is a picture there which is pretty distressing. The

Independent, a very strong front page, just talking about it. U-turn

in and see the picture. A couple of other headlines, the Sunday Express.

Their way Ps raiding children's piggy banks. That is not literally,

metaphorically. -- old-age pensioners. The Sun has gone for

this terribly fat child, a 63 stone girl. I'm sure we will be talking

about that. Welcome. Where are we going to start? We have to start on

a sombre note, with the deaths in Syria. It's quite interesting, they

had used the pictures of these children in the Observer, 32 of

them under 10, some of whom had their throats cut. In a way, this

is a more dramatic front page. It has no picture, few words. Inside,

they have the pictures. When you were editing a newspaper, you have

to make these choices, what pictures you need to use to take

the story. I think they did it brilliantly, the Independent. They

put it in perspective. We have Alan George, he has written a piece,

anybody can understand what is going on in this incomprehensible

conflict. Alawites, Sunnis, Shias, impotence in the international

field. The story about a Tory Cabinet minister apparently

fiddling �165 per night, in the scale of it, it is a Sunday Times

scoop, and everybody else has followed it, it is a syndrome

called the Daily in another your Is it pretty astonishing that after

the earthquake of MP expenses, they just ripped apart the parliamentary

classes, not that long ago, the thought that some people are still

having problems is pretty weird? Completely extraordinary. As Harry

says, it was the splash in the Sunday Times and everybody else

picked it up. Baroness Warsi is co- chairman. If she doesn't know what

she is supposed to be declaring in her expenses, heaven help us all.

There is a real problem for her. I have known her for quite a while.

They are not going to be many people sticking up for her, she is

deeply unpopular in the party. She could not get a seat herself, David

Cameron wanted the first Muslim female in Cabinet so he put her

into the House of Lords and parachuted her into government.

has been quite brave with some of the issues. She stood up against

some of the more reactionary elements of the Muslim community,

quite courageously? She has done, as has Priti Patel, she is not the

only Asian woman doing that. This is deeply damaging to her. Again,

one of Cameron's favourite little pets. It certainly a story and I

would certainly run at. The Independent had it right, in

relation to the serious story. -- You spend most of your time in the

States, let's turn into what is shaping up to be a more interesting

American race than we were expecting? There is a very good

piece by Newsweek. Forget who is ahead in the polling, that does not

matter. What matters is the view of the people on the economy. Wrong

track all right track? Obama is in some difficulty. 30% of Americans

say they are worse off than when he came in. He inherited a terrible

mess from one of your friends, George W Bush. He got a surplus

from Bill Clinton. Is there a sense of disappointment among a huge

number of people who voted for him last time round? The question is if

they are going to come out again. They expected to much. They gave

him three halos and he just about deserved half of one. Who is Mitt

Romney? If you can tell me who he is, I can give you a pot of gold.

What day is it? It is his day to beat pro Europe. Oh, no, it is his

day to be anti-Europe. Obama is a cool character. He has actually

lost some of his hot appeal. But rational people are going to have

find it difficult to decide who Mitt Romney his. He speaks in

pretty boring prose? The promises were too great. Do Leveson Inquiry?

What troubled Mr Jeremy Hunt. is in today. We have David Cameron

turning up at the Leveson Inquiry on Thursday. You cannot pick up a

paper these days without there being some story about the link

between Rupert Murdoch and Jeremy Hunt, their companies. It is not a

huge and corrupt link. But it just doesn't go away. There was another

story, saying that he is looking to quit the Cabinet after the Olympics.

I don't know if he will last that long. I called the Leveson Inquiry

the festival of forgetfulness. You got together the best forgetful

people. What I want to know about the Leveson Inquiry... Up you gave

evidence? It become clear in that, did I lie? Did someone else lie? Do

you still have the law of perjury? Yes, we do. I swore on the Bible.

So, it really is quite amazing. As for Mr Hunt, his judicial robes are

like the emperor's clothes. They did exist, he is naked. He is

nakedly naive, his judgment is so appalling. I don't even know why he

is still in the office. Well, it is very difficult to demonstrate a

negative, we can see all of the relationships, we can see the track

of the text and so on. But if he asserts that he put all of that out

of his mind when he took the decision, how is anyone going to

It is like the dagger in the library with some fingerprints. It

is transparent. He is apparently a very nice guy without an ounce of

common sense. We must do a bit of the royals. A lot of the papers

have lovely jubilee coverage. There is a fantastic bit of good news for

Charles Ann Cryer. -- and Camilla. It is the first poll that says he

is more popular than William and the majority of people would now be

happy for him to become king. Who would ever have thought it?

drew my attention to this wonderful street party somewhere... Where is

that? Look at that. I can remember street parties for the coronation.

When you look at the joy of that thing, and you hear some of these

moaning minnies outside Nick Clegg's house saying, the Royal

Family, get rid of the Republic... Give me a break. One of the

interesting things about Britain is that the head of state is the Queen.

I hate the American system where the per head of state is the

political head of government. Keep the Queen. There will be if you

Republicans out there. Trying to rain on her parade. There are a

couple of eloquent Republican pieces in the paper today, there is

one in the Mail on Sunday and a piece in the Observer, about the

Republicans having the their own anti Jubilee parties. I am going to

be put in bunting up all over the front of my house this afternoon. I

am not going to have any Republicans come near me. I will

give them short shrift. I will give you a hand! I have about 40 metres

There are not Republican colours, it is interesting, what would that

look like? Black. All right, OK. One last quick one. Isn't this the

most humiliating thing in the world? Engelbert Humperdinck thumbs

last and these grannies came second. I blame David Cameron because he

has been so nasty to Europe and they all hate us. On a brisk and

robust note, thank you both very much indeed for now. Now to the

weather. I'd almost forgotten what a balmy early summer day felt like,

and frankly, just for a while, I don't really care about droughts.

So the question is whether the sunshine's going to continue for

the rest of the weekend? To tell us, For most of us, yes. It will be

another fine and sunny day. The hot spot in the Highlands of Scotland

but not far behind in London. Most of us start the day sunny but we do

have fog patches affecting the East Coast of Scotland, north-east

England. They will burn back to the coast before mostly clearing away.

To the south-west of England, the weather front will bring heavy and

pad as thundery rain. It will eventually turn up in southern

Wales -- perhaps thundery rain. Overnight we will see fog patches

redeveloping. This time perhaps pushing further south, threatening

the coastline of Lincolnshire and Norfolk. Monday morning, most of us

start off on a sunny note. We will see a bit more cloud bubbling up

and we could see more showers, thunderstorms even threatening one

or two places from London towards the Pennine areas. It will be

another warm day with the exception of the north-east of Scotland where

a cold front will move in. As far as the rest of the week,

temperatures will stay warm but not quite as hot as it has been. We may

see further thunderstorms developing towards Wednesday. We

could see the storm clouds gathering over Westminster in the

They are always over Westminster! For a long time, it seemed Germany

was in the driving seat in Europe. Supported by Nicolas Sarkozy,

Angela Merkel could tell the struggling eurozone countries -

deliver austerity or don't expect any bailout money. But voters

intervened - the Greek government was turfed out and in France, a new

President began insisting Berlin must share more of the Eurozone's

debt burden. So why won't Germany agree? That's a question I put to

Germany's deputy finance minister, Steffen Kampeter. I don't see that

in this very moment, because the sources of trouble are the him

balanced-budget in Europe. Nobody will invest in balance -- budgets

which are not reliable. The fiscal Compaq is the answer to regain

trust in the stability of the public services and finances within

the eurozone. I don't see that there is a need of common financing.

I see that there is a need of, and consolidation. Yet with --, and

consolidation. Isn't there a danger that the rich countries get richer,

the poor get poorer and the whole thing breaks up. You make an

important point. The internal rebalancing within the eurozone is

a task where we should address over the next years. But this means more

competitiveness in those countries who have a negative balance, and

more internal demand in those countries like Germany, which they

have a surplus. If you see the actual development, for example the

wage bargaining process actually taking place in Germany, we have a

good deal to make a good contribution for rebalancing the

eurozone. As long as we consume more, other countries should invest

in the competitiveness, which is quite crucial to rebalance the

eurozone in general. What is the mood in Berlin about the Greek

problem? Is there a sense of resignation that Greece is now

doomed to exit the euro? European integration is not a

matter of mood. I would contradict on that one. The European

integration, and it includes Greece, is a matter of political will. The

heads of state, not only in the eurozone but in Europe in general,

have worked hard over the last two- and-a-half years to keep the Greeks

in. We are not losing face in our common effort at this very moment,

but it is quite clear the Greeks are to deliver policy change with a

stable government. That is what we are requiring from them. We are

hopeful that when they have elected, on 17th June, the situation will

emotionally calm down. I don't see any alternative but to go on with

the reforms, stabilising the public budget and investing in future

growth in Greece. You're getting a lot of advice from British

politicians, including recently, Nick Clegg. We are not in the euro,

does that advice produce any sense of resentment? People who do not

pay in the euro are interested in the development in the eurozone and

that shows we have a common interest in stability in Europe.

Actually, I see the British Government is constructively

participating in that discussion, and I think this shows a common

understanding that only with stability in the eurozone, Europe

as a whole can perform related to growth and other things, better. I

don't think that it is negative that the House of Commons or Number

10, people are concerned and trying to support our cause.

Germany's deputy finance minister, Steffen Kampeter, talking to me

earlier. A wonder how many of our ministers could conduct a interview

in German -- I wonder. Once upon a time Tracey Emin was

cast as the wild child of British art - Mad Tracey from Margate -

with works such as her un-made bed, and a tent embroidered with the

names of everyone she'd ever slept with. But however controversial,

she's always been very popular too - and constantly surprising. She's

just opened a show of fresh work at the new Turner Contemporary gallery

in Margate, which is free to visit, and has already welcomed 500,000

people in its first year. When we met at her studio in east London, I

asked Tracey Emin about the work she's showing there. My original

idea was to make work about Margate but that is like taking coals to

Newcastle. I chose works by road and an Turner and chose their

erotic works, show I decided to make the show about love, sex, all

of that kind of thing. There is a lot of drawing. A lot of the work

is in this rather beautiful cobalt blue. There is something about blue

that you have been attracted to at the moment. It is an uplifting

colour. It wasn't intentional. I went to Italy to look at Marble,

and I had one tube of blue paint and a sketch book, and I did lots

of drawings in my hotel room. A number of them have been exhibited

and it lifted me, the whole experience, I felt very happy.

is a great gallery, there is nothing like it in the south-east.

There is nothing like it in the world. Margate was a seaside town

in the doldrums going down. Now Margate is definitely coming up and

it is all because of the gallery. It is really beautiful. Some people

refer to it as the shed which I think is cruel. It is a very simple

shape. When you have a very blue day, the gallery completely

disappears into the skyline and the emphasis is on the fantastic

sunsets that Margate has, which Turner painted. It is why he went

there in the first place, for the best sunsets in the world. Even his

paintings which were not Margate, he still used the Margate sunset.

You are a professor of drawing, are you going back to drawing in a big

way? It is not just drawing, it is like, if you have got it, flaunt it.

I can draw and I love drawing. Ever think I am doing now, you can see

it with the bronze sculptures, everything is touched by my hands.

I am an artist, I have got feelings. They are coming out more and more

in what I do. I am almost reverting back to when I was a teenager in

some ways and I am not ashamed of it, I am celebrating it and

enjoying it. Let's talk more about that. You are still, however much

you may regret it, known for the early works. I don't regret any of

my work. The only thing they ever regret in life is smoking, I wish I

had never smoked. I am proud of my work, proud of my bent and -- my

bed and my tent. I made two seminal pieces of work. A lot of artists

don't make seminal pieces of work which changed the perception of art

history. I did that. One of the things you're doing is making it

big in ordering, but trying to keep the fluidity and sponsor nature of

the hand and the rest -- make it big in your career. I think you

understand how difficult that is. It is really hard. Matisse used to

draw with a long stick and he would have a sweeping a line. So that the

paper is in proportion to the action you make with your hand. I

am just trying to do it with your hand. You are drawing a line and

when you come back, everything looks different. It is difficult is

fun and I am enjoying it. It seems that the drawings you're doing, the

other thing they are about his seeing how little you can get away

with in terms of what you are expressing. You want to get as much

for as little? Yes, I do. I have said they like Cave woman drawings.

Boom, boom, boom. I go out, I get my food and I come back to my cave

and I make my drawing before it gets dark, it is that kind of thing,

like a primal action. I need to create, how much time do I have? I

need to get my message through as quickly and as immediately as

possible. The things I have learned, I want to put them into my work. I

don't want to ignore what I know. Now I am Professor of drawing at

the Royal Academy, I owe it to the students to fulfil what I am

supposed to be good at. So I have got to start working harder. Yes.

You say Royal Academy professor, we are talking the night that after

you were with the Queen. Tracey from Margate has become pretty

establishment, haven't you? establishment has changed. Our

ideas of what establishment was 20 years ago is very different. We

live within a very good meritocracy in this country. The establishment

was always class-based before. It is not now. The establishment is

about education, understanding, about pulling other people through

a system. If I have become part of that, I am happy. It is a good,

positive thing. It is an establishment of people who have

got talent? Yes. You famously supported the Conservatives at the

election which surprised a lot of people because everybody in the art

world has to be on the left. They do, because at art school, we are.

When I look at the political system and what I feel most aligned to,

the Conservatives, when I worked it out, is what I should vote for for

the position I'm in at the moment. I live in a democracy and I am

entitled to vote for who I want. These are tough times but how do

you think it is going, the coalition? I think the country is

in a mess. Everyone should pull together and help each other

instead of this pathetic bickering. They should be men, even the women

should be men. Man up, everybody! Yes, muscle in and make the country

a better place. Britain is fantastic. We have the Olympics, so

many fantastic things happening, it is an up moment and people should

not make things bad, they should make things good. Do you call

yourself a monarchist? I really love the Queen, she is brilliant.

Our figurehead of our country is a woman. An exceptional woman. This

is a fantastic thing for this country. We haven't got a

dictatorship, we haven't got a President that is going to go out

in four years time. We have a woman who has been doing a brilliant job

for 60 years. I think the British public are just starting to

I have met her, I had lots of different options. I could have

drawn how I felt about meeting hair, how she we de luxe, A likeness.

There were many different options. What I decided to do was a bit like

the caveman drawings. I decided to draw the stamp of the Queen, how we

feel about the Queen, what is recognisable as the Queen, even if

you are a child. You understand what the Queen looks like. What I

wanted to do was universal, but the Queen is universal, I think. Tracey

Emin, in your cave, thank you very much.

Her new exhibition, which is called She Lay Down Deep Beneath the Sea,

is on at the Turner Contemporary in Margate until September.

The singing legend Tom Jones has made a joyous return to Saturday-

night television in his role as a coach for the BBC talent show The

Voice. As much as he enjoys mentoring talent, he is a very

successful performer and recording artist. His latest album is full of

gritty, bluesy tracks by favourite writers including Leonard Cohen's

Tom pea, which we talked about recently. He wrote it for himself,

being a songwriter. As far as he is concerned, Tower of Song is where

he creates his songs. I had to change a few words, so that it

would suit me as a singer. I was born with the gift of a golden

voice, which Leonard Cohen is singing ironically, but you

actually were. It is full of strange lines about destiny. Mighty

judgment coming. I may be wrong, that is a great line? Leonard Cohen

is one of my favourites. There were a couple of his that I wanted to

try. The best one, the one that turned out the most natural, was

POW of song. The opening line, my hair is grey, I ate in the places

I'm in the business. Absolutely. The other thing that people are

added to know more about his The Voice at the moment. I gather that

you actually tier up with some of the performances? It had

stratospheric ratings to start with and then it went down again. As a

member of the team, are you constantly looking at the format,

is it working, how is it going? myself. I am on there to do what I

do. That is to give advice to young singers. The show goes through a

different elements. The blind auditions comedy start with. As it

goes on, you going to the battles, another part of the show. You try

to cut down the team. And then it goes on from there. It's changing

constantly. People are already wondering if there is going to be a

second series and whether you would come back to be a judge. It all

depends. We would like to get this one done, first. And then see what

the reaction has been. Then we will talk about maybe doing another one.

What about the contrast with the way that you came up as a singer?

You were doing the clubs and in some ways it must have been tougher,

you are in front of live audiences, you have to perform every time. It

is a longer process. With Palmer shows it is instant fame or crash

and burn? -- talent shows. difference is that these people

have been thrown in the deep end. They go straight into it. When I

look at them and hear them singing, I think, my God, some of them it is

the first time they have been on television, live on Saturday night,

to millions of people. When I first went on television, you are a bit

nervous. It is a new day, it's another time. You can't really

compare it to 50 years ago, when I started. Thank you very much indeed.

We are going to here you singing that wonderful song, Tower of Song,

at the end of the show. In the House of Commons this past

week, two senior government figures were conspicuously absent, Nick

Clegg and Vince Cable were in Germany where their mission was to

warn Berlin that a Greek exit from the eurozone could have drastic

consequences. This is the latest in a series of high-profile

interventions by them on issues such as growth, investment and

protecting workers' rights. Following the Liberal Democrat's

disastrous local election performance, does this mean it is a

new attempt to exercise power and influence in the coalition? Nick

Clegg is with me. Can I start by talking about these very

distressing images in so many of the papers today after this

massacre of people, including many children, with their throats cut,

in Syria? Syrian general, the one in charge of their Olympic team and

others, they say they are absolutely determined to come to

London for the Olympics. Are we going to stop them? Like you, I

think the scenes of savagery we have seen on our television screens

this morning and last night are revolting, stomach-churning. As a

government, we have recently changed the rules about who we are

allowing to this country and who we refuse entry to. For the first time

we are saying, as a country, if there is evidence you have abused

human rights and it is independently shown as the case,

you will not be allowed into the country. What I cannot do is city

and give you the list of people who are allowed to come and those that

are coming as part of the arrangements with the Olympic

Committee for Sock It a senior Syrian Olympic team comes with a

Military General, will we stop them? I cannot talk about the

International Olympic Committee, but as far as we are concerned, if

you have abused human rights and that is shown to be the case, you

are not welcome in this country. The IOC can have their views, but

it is the British government, in the end, who controls who comes in?

Absolutely, we have changed our policy in a big way. If you have

abused human rights, you cannot come in. We can be sure that people

connected to all of this stuff will not be here for the Olympics?

course. What I can't telly is exactly each individual. -- what I

can't tell you is which individuals will apply to come. But a principle

of presumption has been introduced by as, which says, for the first

time, and actually many other countries do not do this, if you

have been shown to abuse human rights you are not allowed in.

Let's turn to what you were saying in Germany last week, what Vince

Cable was saying as well. Can we be clear, you think it would be a

disaster for Greece to be forced out and have to leave the eurozone

because it would start a slide which would involve other countries

leaving as well and therefore the unravelling of the project?

thing you need to remember about the creation of the single currency,

whatever your views, is that it was considered to be an era of global

step. It could not be reversed once you created the currency. Once that

has proved not to be the case, the unravelling effect is almost

impossible to predict. I'm not saying there is anybody saying that,

certainly not in the UK government, but some commentators are saying,

let's take the risk of seeing the unravelling. The Prime Minister was

getting close to this, he says, they have to decide, is Greece

going to go or stay? What he was saying, which I share, is that it

is for the Greek people to decide what their future is. If they want

to stay in the eurozone they have to abide by this package of

assistance provided to them. What he was saying was quite right. We

are entering into new territory if the so-called single currency bloc

that was going to be there forever starts eroding on the edges. Greece,

in and of itself, is not a particularly important economy. It

is only a small percentage of the European Union. But it is the knock

on effect. In this country, whatever your views on Europe, we

are intimately bound with what happens in the European hinterland.

3.5 million people's jobs in the country depend on our place in the

single market. About 50% of exports going to the rest of the eurozone.

My bottom line is what is right for British jobs and growth. In my view,

a stable, strong, prosperous eurozone has to be good for us.

Let's pursue how you think that must happen. What you're saying is

that in effect Germany and the stronger economies have to stand

behind European debt, commit themselves to it. That is really

quite close to being a genuine single economy, with a single

fiscal policy, single tax, single welfare. In your view, that is the

only way forward to make sure it holds together? The great tragedy

is that when the eurozone was created the rules were not stuck to.

By the way, it was Germany and France, the previous governments,

that signalled they were not going to abide by the rules. It was not

just the weaker countries, it was the stronger countries. A number of

countries did not introduce the reforms that should have

accompanied the creation of the eurozone. The foundation is much

weaker than anybody predicted. The key thing to do is not to try to

deal with it in a piecemeal way. We have had far too long attention

devoted to banks, to this country or that country, this crisis will

that crisis. This summit all that summit. You have to string these

things together, not only talking about austerity, but also policies

to boost growth. Not just discipline but also solidarity. Not

just recapitalising the banks but making sure that the economic

reforms that need to accompany monetary union are properly

implemented. These things have not been brought together into a new

grand bargain which I think is now very urgent. That's new grand

bargain would effectively melt the European economies more tightly

together, yes? The interesting thing from Britain's perspective is

that actually the Grand bargain is in effect between north and south.

You are saying to the weaker parts of the eurozone that you have to

introduce a very painful, long overdue economic reforms if you

want to remain a prosperous part of this union. What you are saying to

the wealthier countries is that you have to do something to help those

weaker countries. Euro bonds? could either neutralise debt, have

some way of sharing it, or you can transfer bits of money. But it can

only be part of a bargain whether we are countries do the reforms

they haven't done. That grand bargain can only work if European

countries feel they are all in this together. If that works and we have

a much more unified European Union on the Continent, is that the

moment when we are going to have the choice that we can either go

into this thing or cut ourselves off from it? I don't think it will

be such a fall in the road. What is almost certainly inevitable is that,

one way or another, if the eurozone is to thrive in future, you will

see a process of greater co- ordination on budgetary and tax

issues. That, of course, means that the channel will become that little

bit wider. It doesn't mean that we should in any way forgo our role as

a leading member of the European Union in the single market on which

we depend so heavily. My bottom line is that however these things

change, what is good for British growth and jobs, and I think we can

square the circle, allowed the eurozone to do what is necessary to

sort the eurozone out, protect Britain's interests in the central

market. To without having to join the euro? I don't think there is

any chance of those joining the euro. We read today that the Home

Office has got emergency plans if Rhys does leave the euro to stop

the citizens of other EU countries joining -- coming into this country.

Emergency immigration controls if things start to collapse? Theresa

May has been very clear. She says the Home Office keeps an eye on

migration patterns across Europe. She said a little bit more than

that. She says that the Greeks are in trouble and people want to come

to this country, from other European countries, she is going to

bring the barrier down? It was quite a sensible thing to say, she

said she keeps all of these things under review. I think some of the

breathless talk in the media about pulling up the drawbridge to stop

hordes of people migrating across Europe is far-fetched, apocalyptic

in tone and deeply unhelpful. What I hope will happen is that the Grid

people will choose to stay in the eurozone, not withstanding the

sacrifices that involves, and there will be a new agreement to come up

with a comprehensive solution to the eurozone. Lurching to project

the most apocalyptic outcome... Theresa May has been doing?

hasn't, she said this is something that the Home Office keeps under

review, as it should. Let's turn to this economy, flat on its back,

this was meant to be the time we would get growth. No sign of it.

Christine Lagard has said, yes, of course, the austerity plan was

important to keep the AAA rating. But now it has to change course,

Britain has do have a Plan B or something like it for growth? Is

The think what is right, if you look back over the last two years,

we have done some pretty difficult heavy lifting to sort out the banks.

Let's look forward. Hang on, they are related. You can only move

forward if you do the homework sorting out the bank's system,

trying to stabilise it, filling the blank hole -- black hole in the

public finances. Because we have done that we have the breathing

space to do what other people are suggesting, which is to step up a

gear, to do our bit to support demand. For instance, a suggestion

that I have talked about, the Prime Minister has talked about, which is

using the government's balance sheet, the credibility they have

got to leverage money into the hands of small and medium-sized

enterprises. I think we're being open about the fact that this is

the direction of travel we are moving in. We of course accept that

we as a government need to be resolute on certain parts of our

plan, not least dealing with the public finances. But of course,

adaptable. The double-dip has now been confirmed, unemployment is

terribly serious. We have seen direction of travel, we haven't

actually heard what you are going to do for plan B. I think that

isn't right, I think it you consider that just last month week

launched a �1 billion programme, about four times the size of

labour's own suggestions of youth unemployment, to deal with young

people who are not able to get into jobs. To help half a million

youngsters to learn or learn. We have only just launched it. When

you are trying to turn around and economy, which was as damaged as

ours in 2008, there are not magic wand overnight solutions. The basic

plan, which is dealing with the mediant emergency, one of public

finances and the bank's system, and then moving on in the second half

of this Parliament, to do our bit to get credit into the hands of

small companies who can't get hold of loans on reasonable terms,

investing at infrastructure... banking system, to ensure money is

going to small companies, are we going to see some big public sector

work projects, more roads and railways to get people work again?

You can use the credibility that we have established in dealing with

the government's balance sheet to act as a catalyst, an insurance

policy to get others to invest in housing and infrastructure. On the

banks, I agree the banks are damaged, they are having to repair

their balance sheets. We need to help them through that process. We

can do not all things to in effect bypass the banks, to get money into

the hands of people. We will hear more about the shortly? Yes. Was it

true that you and David Cameron got together to decide that the top

rate of tax was not going to go down to 40 PE, but 45 PE is enough.

I am not going to get into who said what when. We have been clear that

of next April it will go down to 45p. I have observed that it is

higher that the top rate was under 12 years and 11 months under Labour.

Labour had 40p for pretty much the whole time in office. You came into

government saying he wanted to take on vested interests, and change the

system. In terms of vested interests and people's suspicion,

nothing has been stickier than the relationship of some politicians

and media magnet. What do you think when you feel it's the tone of this

slew of texts and e-mail messages between people working for the

Govan, members of the government and people working for the media

empire -- the Murdoch empire -- people working for the government.

It is time we clean up what I consider to be broken establishment.

I have been in government for two years but I have learned that I am

more rather than less convinced that the way in which power

influenced in this country is broken. In that specific case, what

is your reaction? We have the Leveson inquiry looking into the

relationship between media and politicians, and media and the

police. We have a proposal to clean up the way in which the House of

Lords has become a retirement home for former politicians. We have a

cross-party talks on party funding, we have proposals to make up

lobbying more transparent. It is a once in a generation opportunity...

Can I it stressed... Are you concerned by the tone of those e-

mails and texts? Clearly, the different roles became bound up

with each other, and it is too unhealthy when politicians end up

in the pockets of media moguls. It is also offensive when the Labour

It is not just a question for people like me interested in the

quality of our democracy. If you don't have a strong and clean

politics, you don't have a healthy economy. It affects millions of

people because the way in which a British economy goes belly up every

few years is always because vested interests, whether it was the trade

unions become too powerful. The way to stop that is to make sure that

politics is reformed. The time for action is now. The time for action

is nigh, can you say that the tone of camaraderie and closeness

between political advisers, ministers and people working for

big media companies, that will not happen again and should not have

happened in the past? And you can't stop people knowing each other. The

fact that this was able to develop in a way which was on transparent,

not subject to scrutiny, where the you didn't have the basic checks

and balances on people in power and people wielding influence, who

suffers. It is really important. It is the millions of people are now

gearing up the mess left by the banks. It is the many people who

became victims of illegal phone hacking. That is why there is an

intimate link between cleaning up politics and restoring sense and

growth to our economy. In terms of Liberal Democrat values, the

question of gay marriage has been very prominent. We are now hearing

suggestions that it is going to be a completely free vote, that

Conservative Members of the House of Commons can vote any way they

like and there won't be any great direction. I thought it was part of

the coalition agreement? If this was an issue that the Government

was proposing something which would beat him positioned on religion or

We believe that if you are two individuals who want to show a

commitment to each other, irrespective of gender, you should

be able to get married. My view is that in the same way that the civil

partnerships legislation was a whip to vote, I don't think this is

something we should be subject to a great free fall, because we are not

asking people to make -- should not be a great freefall. As far as my

party is concerned, which constitutes part of government, I

would like to see us on a what we have said as a party for that they

should honour the agreement, too, It is something we had developed.

We are consulting on it now. That is something I believe him

personally and my party believes in. -- I believe been personally. We

are not asking someone with religious convictions to sacrifice

anything. You would urge Mr Cameron to have a whip to vote on this.

is leader on his party, I am the leader of mind. Now over to Naga

for the news headlines. There's growing international

condemnation of an attack by Syrian government forces which left more

than 90 people dead, a third of them children, in the town of Houla.

Syrian state television blamed the killings on armed terrorist gangs,

but United Nations monitors say the victims died from tank and

artillery fire. The American Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton,

pledged that Washington would work with other countries to end what

she called President Assad's "rule by murder and fear".

The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, said the government could

take action to prevent Syrian officials from coming to London for

the Olympic Games. He said if there was evidence that individuals had

abused human rights, they would not be allowed to enter the UK. Mr

Clegg also talked about the latest developments at the Leveson inquiry,

saying it was unhealthy for politicians to be in the pockets of

media moguls. That is all from if enough. Back to you, Andrew.

Nick Clegg's still with me and I've been joined again by Sir Harold

Evans and Amanda Platell. Welcome, all. I thought we might talk about

the demonstration you had outside your house, the UK uncut and so on.

There was quite a lot of stuff on Twitter saying it his personal

politics, but it shouldn't be up against people's houses, that is

going too far. I am surprised the police did not move them on, think

it is outrageous. I know people like me attack you all the time.

You said it. It is hard enough being a modern politician, you have

to have some privacy and go with your family... I totally agree, I

would have said, move on. Do you think they should have moved on?

You must have been upset. It is difficult for me to comment. My

family and I are in an odd position in the sense we didn't take an

offer to move into a flat after the government was formed, because we

still want our children to lead as normal a life as possible, which

thankfully they do. At the same time, I accept that if a government

is doing difficult things, people want to make their views known.

is a security point, too. In the United States it couldn't happen

because we are so terrified of everybody. All these people outside.

I think you should deserve better protection than that. We agree a

lot! De Ville worried for your family question are thankfully, we

were not there. -- do you feel worried for your family? Neighbours

have soul children and some of those were quite scared so that is

not very nice. But I have to say that the protesters were peaceful.

We are in New territory. I always try to avoid this, as a husband and

father, retreating behind the battlements. I understand. If I

have got a mob outside their houses, how would they react? They wouldn't

be happy. We have run out of time, but thank you.

Next week we've a special programme - celebrations for the Queen's

Diamond Jubilee will be in full swing, and I'll be discussing her

reign with David Cameron, The Bishop of London and Rory Bremner,

among others. Earlier I talked to Tom Jones about

his new album - something of a departure from his previous records.

Here he is with a version of # Well my friends are gone and my

hair is grey. # I ache in the places where I used

to play. # And I'm crazy for love but I'm

not coming on. # I'm just paying my rent every day

in the tower of song. # I was born like this, I had no

choice. # I was born with the gift of a

golden voice. # And 27 angels from the great

beyond. # They tied me to this stage right

here in the tower of song. # I see you standing on the other

side. # I don't know how the river got so

wide. # I loved you, baby, way back when.

# And all the bridges are burning that we might have crossed.

# But I feel so close to everything that we lost.

# We'll never, we'll never have to lose it again.

# Now I bid you farewell, I don't know when I'll be back.