01/07/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. There has been a lot to scare us on the television this

week. Penalty shoot-outs, banking Night Nurse, terror of the seas.

But has anything been quite a scary as the slow-motion close-up of Andy

Murray's face as he hammers and leaps and thrashes his way through

the tennis? The answer is, yes. The expression on his mother's face.

Only happy expressions for a few of the Sunday papers, Helena Kennedy,

and my colleague from Radio 2, Jeremy Vine. Those rivers of gold

on which British Bankers paddled for so long have become an ethical

quagmire, and moral cesspit, at least according to some politicians

and newspapers. Mis-selling, it rate fixing, collusion and greed.

The bosses wallowing in bonus joy while customers flounder. That is

the charge sheet. What is the future for an industry Britain has

come to rely on and how did we get here? The boss of the UK's main

financial watchdog Adair Turner is here to talk about the recent past

and uncertain future of British banking. Meanwhile apparently

confusing messages for British Euro-sceptics. On Friday the Prime

Minister said I did think it is the right thing to do of Alnwick in out

referendum, but this morning for me, the two words referendum and Europe

can go together. William Hague is with us and will explain all. It is

hard to think William Shakespeare would be greatly surprised by

today's stories of greed and corruption. The isle is full of

noises as it always was. The man regarded as the finest current

performer of the Bard's work is returning to the Globe Theatre,

Mark Rylance will tell us about playing Richard III at his -- and

his other theatrical plans for the summer. Martina Navratilova knows a

thing or two about performing on big stages. Thoughts from her on a

remarkable few days at Wimbledon and that Late Night dramatic win

from Wimbledon and a live song from Devon's very own Queen of song, it

Joss Stone. First, over to Naga Munchetty for the news.

David Cameron says he is prepared to hold a referendum on Britain's

relationship with the European Union. He told a Sunday newspaper

he wants a real choice for voters but he stopped short of promising a

referendum seeing one would only be held when the time is ripe.

David Cameron says he took steps to protect Britain's interests at the

summit last week which agreed new roles for banks. He said Europe is

changing fast and he could be prepared to hold a referendum, but

not yet. In his article for the Sunday Telegraph he says he wants

The move has already been welcomed by some of his MPs. I believe

firmly in a referendum. We should have a referendum on significant be

good -- renegotiation with our relationship with the European

Union. It is important to do that when we are not facing an economic

crisis. Tomorrow Liam Fox will go much further calling for Britain to

negotiate a new looser and largely economic relationship with European

Union and put it to the people. He will say if the government doesn't

get what it wants from our European partners it should be prepared to

recommend Britain leads the European Union. David Cameron knows

his coalition partners take a different view on Europe. He wants

to wait until closer to the next election before making any firm

decisions on a referendum. The business secretary Vince Cable

has called on shareholders to get a stronger grip to prevent corruption

in banks. Writing in the Observer he condemns the incompetence,

corruption and greed endemic in British banking. We followed the

revelations staff at Barclays had been reading interbank lending. --

Reading. A shareholder democracy is something Vince Cable is fighting

for. He wants the people who ultimately owned the company to

have more power over how much the bosses get paid but he also wants

them to get a stronger grip on those at the top. It follows the

�290 million fine handed out to Berkeley's For meant --

manipulating the rate at Wickes -- at which banks lend to each other.

This week the chief executive of Barclays Bank Bob Diamond will be

questioned by MPs and a review will be set up which will put forward

new regulations. Labour want a wider inquiry examining British

banking culture. Not to be the government has ruled out but it is

not exactly rolling it in either. After rebellions over pay its

shareholders bring it may become a shareholder summer.

Opposition activists in serious a 30 people were killed when a

funeral procession was bombed in Damascus. There has been no

independent cons -- confirmation of the attack. At a meeting of the

International Action Group on Syria in Geneva yesterday members of the

United Nations Security Council and regional powers called for a

transitional government to be settled. The group said the

government could include members of the existing regime and the

opposition and the US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton insisted

President Assad could not remain in power.

Millions of people in the eastern United States are likely to be

without power for several days because of damage caused by fierce

storms. 12 people were killed after a series of thunderstorms moving

from the Midwest struck the east coast. They are being made more

severe by a heatwave. That is all from me. I will be back just before

10am. Many banks.

To the front pages. Newspapers going on the banks and the European

poll. The Observer, throw out the bank cheats, cable tells

shareholders and a picture of Andy Murray looking very triumphant.

The Independent has gone for a similar front page. Again, Andy

Murray on the front. If you go to the Sunday Telegraph,

they have got the article by the Prime Minister that led the news

bulletins at the start of this show and they have got Liam Fox saying

we need a referendum. The new Tory battle lines.

Mail on Sunday, Britain to get fit on Europe, picking up on the same

story. -- a vote. A picture of the Jade Jagger

wedding with Mick Jagger wearing a fetching kind of liked a violet

jacket. The father-in-law wore pink. Helena Kennedy and Jeremy Vine,

welcome. Where will we start? It has got to be banking.

Everywhere the papers are full of banking and a sense of outrage

about the rigging of interest rates. It is more endemic than people were

prepared to admit and what is widespread. Listeners are desperate

to see a bank in handcuffs. They are so desperate. Bob Diamond is

the latest culprit but we don't know whether he has done anything

wrong or illegal. An interesting paragraph in the Mail on Sunday

scene he put in a call to Ed Miliband to say it isn't as bad as

it looks and the call made Ed Miliband denounce him publicly.

Matthew Parry wrote a column saying we are all angry, furious, not

quite sure why, but we just, there seems to be this swelling quantity

of anger in the country that moves from one target to another,

politicians, newspapers, broadcasters, banks. This has been

bubbling away for quite some time. There was a moment in 2008 where we

thought is the world going to have to be reconfigured where money is

not going to be the God, and somehow it was back to business as

usual. And then this, people think they are not in the real-world

because it is affecting our lives. It says here 71% of people think

Bob Diamond should go. 271 % of people understand what he has done?

-- do is 71 people. Do we understand? It has unleashed their

hatred. A sense there wasn't just is the first time. Is it having an

impact on the way in which ordinary people's lives have been led? Banks

being corrupt, mortgages taken away. People's lives are affected by the

stuff. We know there is a sense of ghastliness at the top level.

very interesting story in the Mail on Sunday which argues this fixing

of the libel rate was indeed connected to the banking crash of

2080 because it didn't alert regulators in time. It looked as if

it was less bad than it was because the undershot the rate and a result

of that was the policy response. You are going all pastern on us. --

Peston. The main banks didn't look as bad. In fact, they were fiddling

it to make it look as if they were doing fine. Let's move to the next

thing, we will talk quickly about the euro.

This is the Big story, kind of interesting the more right-wing

newspapers their big story is the one on the euro and Europe. David

Cameron saying he will consider a referendum, but not right now. You

get a different and more Euro- sceptic view from Liam Fox saying

they cannot be any more waiting around, people want to see a

renegotiation. There is a suggestion Cameron is coming in on

this because he wants to steal a march on Labour because Miller Band

has also been talking about something having to be done about

our relationship in Europe -- Ed Miliband. It is to make sure the

Lib Dems are pushed out onto the edge. I want to mention Syria, such

an impenetrable story. The stuff going on is terrible and we must

take note. And the massacre were a lot of babies were killed, it seems

to have been forgotten. There is a piece in the Observer saying the

concern of the rebels is president Assad could get shoved out. United

Nations are talking in Geneva. You could lose him but keep the regime

and it would be no solution at all. They think Russia make push

President Assad out and that would not end it. I don't know what the

solution is. Certainly what people are not very enthusiastic about his

intervention. The fear is of what they would be after. So am sort of

Islamist takeover. And people feel our own military are stretched to

the limit. I picked upon the story. Britain's private schools have lost

their moral purpose. This is about how there was a big push in the

expansion of academies that private schools, the Great, grand private

schools, would come in and play a role in supporting Academy's. And

the headmaster of Wellington School has done that, and so has eaten but

none of the others have stepped up to the plate because the parents

don't want to be paying for their benefit and privilege and to see it

being headed off in the direction of state schools. We're not talking

about Lords reform in the paper, but nonetheless it is big next week.

There was a story in the Sunday Mail by a Liberal peer he takes a

different position from Nick Clegg. -- who takes. This is one of those

stories were party leaders say it is often different from what is

happening below the radar. I am convinced although David Cameron is

saying he is on favour, it is partly to appease Nick Clegg and he

knows fast tracks of the Conservative Party are against that.

For the millions of people watching, what they need to know is is it

going to happen and do they need to concentrate harder or can they

ignore it? I suspect we will get the vegetarian option. It will be

some minor, the red meat will be taken out. Some reform, 10% elected

but a gradual process. Are the not going to run out of people to

This is the UK in the Sun newspaper. They are trying to monitor online

bad behaviour. They are saying every green spot on this map is a

paedophile accessing child pawn. But they say the numbers are low

because it is hot outside. But they have some technology, and it said

it is a man in his office looking at pornography. We do know a lot of

accessing of pornography takes place in the workplace and it is

the employers making these things possible because doing it at home

is riskier. Are we going to be talking about sex in general?

there is this book called the 50 shades of grey. It is soft

pornography by all accounts. still do not know what it is about.

I think we can guess. In the Observer there is an interesting

debate, is it anti-feminist. And the writer says, is this about a

society which everything is so explicit now about sex, you have to

go looking for thrills elsewhere? So it is taken into this sado-

masochistic area. And then you have another author, who is an expert in

the field of sado-masochism and stuff, says this really is

retrograde for women. And it will lead to sort of dangerous zones of

behaviour, which are risky. It is an interesting debate. We are close

to running out of time. The Italian striker, Mario Balotelli. I am

losing focus on the whole thing. This is a great profile of him in

the Sunday Times. The is very eccentric. He had a firework

display in his own home. His mother sent him out to buy an ironing

board and he came back with a quad bike. The police stopped him with a

large amount of cash in his car and when they asked him why did he have

this money, he said "because I am rich". He is very eccentric. Jeremy,

you have a book about the strange people who inhabit this building

and others? I was frisked on the way in and I did not get it in.

Anecdotes behind the news at the BBC? How did 50 shades of grey get

that pick up? It is not dirty enough. Great photographs of Jeremy

Vine as a young man, with long hair. There is a piece about old rockers

in the papers. The fire North fork from you. -- final thought.

Apparently there is a hawk that hovers over Wimbledon that sees off

pigeons that can distract players. But it has been stolen. Thanks to

you both very much. To the weather, I have been loving the unfamiliar

kiss of sunlight and balmy evening breezes. But I suspect the record-

breaking rain is going to be back It does not look too bad today. The

wind is not as blustery. A beautiful satellite picture. South

Eastern areas in Sunshine, north- western areas cloudy and damp. But

it will be a reverse of fortunes because the cloud will spread east.

In Scotland we will see some sunny spells, scattered showers. North

West England will improve. North East England will pick up some

showers. Showers are hit and miss over south-western parts. Brighter

skies across the Midlands with light winds and Sunshine. South-

west England and Wales also brightening up this afternoon. A

few light showers with light winds. Into Northern Ireland, things

improve, but there is cloud and rain and it sets us up for Monday.

Turning cloudy, wet and for many it is looking like an unsettled week

We have been hearing the scandal of rigging interest rates, Barclays

Bank and possibly others under pressure. Investigators from the

Serious Fraud Office who regulates the FA a -- EFSA and its chairman,

Adair Turner is with me in the studio. Will we see bankers in

jail? The it has been a black week for the reputation of British

banking. People are justifiably angry at some of the practices

which were present in the run-up to the financial crisis of 2008. The

situation on the law is that we have looked very carefully at what

types of cases we can bring. In this case of libel, because it is

not a qualifying instrument under the Act, it is not covered by

criminal law. We have brought the maximum cases we can bring under

our own powers for breaches of principles. The it will seem to

many people very bizarre that fixing the interbank rate at which

affects mortgage payers and the general sort of, health check of

the banking system at any one time, but that is not criminal offence?

It was failing to make its own mistake by the last Government?

you go back over 20 years, we started with, in these areas, self-

regulatory approach. Slowly, over the last 15 years, we have

toughened approach. The act itself was a toughening. Further steps

were made a few years ago to bring criminal charges in particular

areas of market abuse. But they did not cover the libel market. We have

to look further to see if we can strengthen these powers on top of

we have got at the moment. It has been a gradual strengthening over

time, but it is not enough. We know about Barclays Bank, RBS bought are

you concerned it may have spread to other banks? But also could there

be collusion between banks? notice, the statement of what went

wrong we brought out this week made it clear that there were severe

problems in Barclays Bank. But we have ongoing inquiries in relations

-- relation to other banks. The case we have brought against

Barclays Bank also shows some collusion, some interbank

discussion which is there in what we have said. It is important that

pretty much all of what we have talked about relates to the period

of 2006, 2007, 2080. They have been significant steps to tighten this

up. I don't believe the same behaviour is going on in relation

to the libel market now. -- 2008. It is still a terrible thing to

find out. When you listen to the Quotes of traders chatting about

how they will make money out of this, it has justifiably angered

people. Why did it take the FSA so long to find this out and how did

you find it out? Rumours began to circulate. That is often how we

find things out. The CFTC in the US began to look at it. We got

involved in it as well. This began in 2009. We put together an

investigation programme. Investigation of these thoughts --

investigations of these types that take a long time to come to

fruition. It is not true to say we have found this out only in the

last week, but the legal process has come to fruition in the last

week. If this spreads to Wall Street as well, as many people

think and this collusion between banks, is it criminal? And, are you

concerned about London's position as one of the world's great

financial capitals? It could hardly be worse, the news rattling around

the world at the moment? The FSA's powers to use criminal sanctions

relate to specific things like the equity price. We cannot use

criminal powers in relation to this. If there has been straight fraud,

the Serious Fraud Office has the ability to bring cases. Of course,

we have been in discussion, and when we bring cases, we get into

discussion with them. The reputation of London is important.

All are the actions that were covered this week occurred before

May 2009, and most of them in 2006 and 2008. It is still a shock to

the banking industry. It comes on top of lot of other things that

went wrong. If you look what happened in the derivative markets.

Do you think the banks need to be divided into the risk-taking

merchant banks, and the ordinary banks? What the Vickers Report has

proposed, do we need to see a division? I think those proposals

are sensible. I do support them. It will separate banking to households

and small business, from the rest of banking. It is important for us

to understand it won't be sufficient in itself to deal with

these problems. Even in the bits which is outside the ring fence

under the Vickers Report, which includes the foreign exchange

markets, lending money and provided money to major corporates. We need

to make sure the practices we have seen are driven out of that area of

finance as well. The Vince Cable has talked about a cesspit of

corruption. Mervyn King has used strong language, the public are

outraged. There won't be prosecutions and you have explained

why, something has to change in the culture. When will that happen?

Government is looking after my report on RBS on whether we should

change the law about the liability of directors. One of the ideas I

put forward in the forward to that report, which was produced last

December, he is whether we should switch round the presumption in

some of our decisions. If you are a director of a bank that fails -

that is not a matter of bad practice, but causing problems to

the economy, whether there is a presumption you shouldn't be

allowed back into the industry again. You'll have to be able to

read but at that by saying I was the man he was trying to put up the

Red Flag to stop that. That might be the sort of person you want in

the industry. But the Government will come out next week with

proposals to follow on from that. Called "more heads will roll"

proposals? It could be. Al Pacino no less, has said of my

next guest he speaks Shakespeare as if it was written for him the night

before. Another reviewer thinks there is great acting,, a very

great acting and then what Mark Rylance does on top of that. He has

taken his stage reputation to another level. This is him in

You've gazed into the mirror and you shock. Mark Rylance is

returning to the Globe Theatre which he ran for many years. You're

the director for 10 years? You are coming back to do Richard III, one

of the great roles. And a Libya. Richard III, we will be seeing that

soon? About two weeks. Are you were almost ready for it? Almost.

did an all-male Twelfth Night? are interested in the original

playing practices that Shakespeare wrote for. Twelfth Night, you have

got Stephen Fry? It should be great fun. It is his great -- favourite

part. Do you think people have lost this snotty reputation and has

established itself as a prime Shakespearean venue in the country?

What reputation it has, it is widely attended and the delight of

it for me is sitting around outside the theatre at the moment learning

my lines is the spectrum of people. There are visitors, where would

London B, Stretford upon-Avon be without visitors? I cannot

understand a complaint about visitors coming to this country.

They only pay �5. And they can leave. If it is boring or they have

had enough, they can leave without it being an embarrassment. Often in

theatres if you leave, you have to make an embarrassing statement. The

freedom Shakespeare gave to his audience was popular. A lot of

visitors will be coming for the Olympics. I heard a story that one

of the things that might happen to you if you are wandering around

London during the Olympics, is somebody might come up to and start

to speak a little bit of We have been given money to a

higher at 50 actors and disguise them as normal people, which is

difficult, and plant them in different places in London so you

wouldn't be able to discern them. You might be sitting on a bench and

seven men would gather around you. Or maybe simply in a suit like your

good self, and start to discuss the assassination of Caesar. He sounds

a wonderfully mad idea. Very intimate and hope for the very real.

You will be giving a Shakespearean speech as part of the opening or

closing -- closing ceremony. will get me trouble, I am not

allowed to say anything. And what about being part of the Olympics,

it is all sponsored, a big corporate thing, but you are OK?

think it is a pity the corporation's are able to buy such

a platform and present themselves, in the case of BP, as part of Team

England. They may have worked here for 100 years but they are part of

the Board of that organisation and will they are interested in is

making money at the cost of indigenous people and the

environment. Why they should be able to position themselves as some

have a host of these games to the rest of the world and to us, I

think is not right. It is time some battle-lines were drawn. After all,

a tobacco company would not be accepted as a sponsor, a good thing.

Hopefully an arms company wouldn't be accepted. So a proper discussion

about where that ethical line is, as it does exist, in a relationship

to the environment and obesity in the case of McDonald's. What is

that? Are seeing a McDonald's behind these wonderful athletes and

thinking there is some connection between eating that sugar and being

an athlete. York notion, your ideas about Englishness are somewhat

rebellious. The Byron character you inhabited for so long, the notion

of the country that is a stroppy, difficult questioning country is

not a smooth corporate place. is a great blessing of the country.

It has always had a very wild nature and a questioning nature.

And hence the poetry and the songs and the plays and the books are

admired and enjoyed. And the language is enjoyed. Very widely.

Because of that imaginative inventive nature, that is something

the Olympic opening ceremony will celebrate. It is a country of great

invention. Most inventors have an ability to think without the box.

That is something I admire about English people. Talking about the

box, you have done a bit of television, a bitter film, but not

much compared to most actors of your stature -- a bit of film. He

liked the directness of being on stage. -- You Like It. You got rid

of your age and because you wanted to do -- because they wanted you to

do more Hollywood big roles. I did decide I didn't want to promote

myself in that field and I felt I had spent my whole life thinking of

what I wasn't instead of what I was. I am very lucky and blessed to be

successful in live theatre and why should I worry about other mediums?

Agents are hired, they will make more money if they get you into

other mediums, they are pushing for that kind of thing. Is it simply a

time-wasting distraction, compared with mainline on a live theatre

stage, doing film? I really admire film actors, don't get me wrong,

and I love going to film, but in terms of somebody who likes to play,

Martina likes to play tennis, I like to act, pretend I am someone

else, and play with other actors. In a film you will get maybe 30

seconds, then a couple of hours waiting, two minutes. In a play

like Jerusalem there were six or seven of us -- six or seven of us

playing for 45 minutes. In Richard III I will play for long stretches.

That is what I enjoy doing. Physically tough, you really bulked

up. A I made myself a bit stronger. He cannot wait to hear how Richard

III and 12 might go. Peggy very much for coming in. -- 12th Night.

The Olympics might have deflected some of the attention but the

second week of Wimbledon is always guaranteed to be exciting. If Andy

Murray continues his run at the title. The women's game is more

competitive than it has ever been with a host of players vying for

top ranking and probably very glad they never had to play my next

guest because her first victory against Chris Evert in 78 was the

first of 20 Wimbledon titles and she was still playing doubles as

recently as 2006. She is obviously Martina Navratilova. Thank you so

much for coming in. Great to have you again. It has been an

extraordinary start to the Wimbledon season. Giant killing

going on on all sides. An amazing week. Nadal going out, nobody

expected it, including his opponent. And the way he played in the 5th

set, Rosol could beat anybody. When you're in is so new play a little

bit better. This guy is down here but he played a peer. -- Kinnock

yours own. -- in eight zone. Let's talk about Andy Murray. A long

session. I sat there hour after hour, it seemed. I kept hoping to

switch to the Shakespeare on the owner -- on the other Channel but

it went on and on. I suppose we should whatever else Andy Murray

has got, he has got staying power, he has got guts, he just keeps

going. What was amazing is he knew they had to stop the match at 11.

When they were in the middle of the third set as said there is no way

they can finish at 11. He managed to win the third set, came back

from a breakdown, and then the 4th. He has got to extraordinary facial

expressions but he looks like he is enjoying himself more. I saw the

change at the Australian Open. His attitude improved and he played the

best tennis he has ever played. He hasn't been able to play that well

since, but he seems to be peaking as seems happier. Even in the

interviews. It pays off. Let's talk about the women's game. It is an

odd period, a transition period. Some of the great names, the

Williams sisters, are perhaps towards the end of their period,

and we don't have a Navratilova, Evert thing going on. Lots of

different people coming forward at the moment. Slightly confusing

picture. We have not had a great run for a while, a lot of flux at

the top. Five different number ones still in the draw. But Petra

Kvitova or one last year, hasn't won a tournament this year. -- she

won last year. She seems to be hitting her form. And Maria

Sharapova, she was number one, shoulder surgery and we write to

Rough and she has come back again. -- we put her off. -- wrote. And

Serena Williams came back yesterday and could win. Women's tennis is in

its golden age. We haven't had this kind of rivalry since Bjorn Borg

and McEnroe, that sense of rivalry and play. Now we have Djokovic,

Federer, Nadal, all at the same time so an amazing time period and

Andy Murray is unfortunately played at the same time. He can still get

through. Who do you fancy, what is your feeling? After the French, it

was Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, because he played so well, match points

against Djokovic and grass will be a much better surface. He is

hitting the ball very well. The only player who hasn't lost his

serve. I think Petra Kvitova has a good chance, playing better and

better. This tournament makes you feel like the defending champion

more than any other. It gives you a little extra. She has got a good

shot at it but it is harder to discount Serena Williams and Maria

Sharapova, playing the best tennis of her life and feeling confident.

Thank you very much, it will be a great week. You never expect a

quiet life as Foreign Secretary and there is no doubt William Hague has

had plenty to occupy him recently. He is just back from the United

nations' latest conference on Syria when negotiations on the future of

the eurozone drag on, and there is this more confusion of a British

referendum to ponder. Add to that a senior role in the delicate

coalition government and there can be not very much time for

chillaxing. William Hague joins me now. Looking relaxed. Can we start

with the slightly curious clicking referendum situation which is that

after that Friday summit David Cameron said in-out referendum,

absolutely not, not the right thing to do, and there was a fair amount

of dismay including in the Conservative Party about that and

this morning he is saying referenda in Europe, they can go together --

referendum and Europe. The coalition talks about referendum

and the people who decide and you never do anything about it. We have

done something, because in this Parliament we have passed, my team

took through Parliament, the act of last year which says. He is

legislation, not a referendum. major act of parliament that says

if we or any future government are to pass any more powers to Europe

in a new treaty there has to be a referendum by law. We have already

brought that. What the Prime Minister is saying today is

expanding upon what he said on Friday, he put the argument on

Friday which I have often put to why we did what a referendum now on

being in or out of Europe. Argue against any in or out referendum?

He is saying he will set out in the autumn our approach to this. We are

not against referendums pair say, We have had it, we want our voice,

you are saying vote for another party. We are saying what most

people want is a better relationship with Europe. Actually

it wouldn't help achieve that if you had a referendum on staying or

leaving because if people voted to leave it would have all great

disadvantages of leaving the single market. For the be disastrous for

Britain if we left? A my view is we should stay in the European Union,

there are huge advantages. Foreign policy, Burma, Iran, Syria. He is

setting the pace, a leading foreign policy? Britain plays a leading

role and the single market is very important to jobs. The ride

disadvantages. -- There are disadvantages. There is too much

interference, bureaucracy, decisions made at European level.

That is what we want to change. What the Prime Minister is saying

is the time to decide on a referendum or general election

about our relationship with Europe is when we know how Europe will

develop over the coming months and years with the euro is in crisis

and when we know whether we can get that better relationship. --

eurozone crisis. The Prime Minister wants, you want, a much deeper

federal Europe to save the euro for the eurozone. Our relationship with

that kind of Europe is obviously very different from our

relationship today with the Europe we have at the moment, more

flexible, uncomplicated. If we have that federal route we must have a

referendum, which you agree? That is part of the argument. If it

changes in that way, and if we know, once we know whether we can get a

better relationship with Europe, that is the time to make a case for

a referendum or if there is a clear division between the parties, to

decide a general election. That is the time, not now. E if we get a

deeper Europe as a result of the negotiations between Angela Merkel

and all the rest of it, if we get a banking union, that is the big

change that would make the Conservatives' long-standing

promise about a referendum That is one of the factors. Then we

can give people a real choice. That is the argument in the Prime

Minister's article. The arguments are very powerful and it would add

greatly to the case for a referendum. If Europe changed

radically, and it looks as if it will, then our relationship does

have to be put back to the British people again? That is what there is

a powerful case for. What I would like and what the Prime Minister is

explaining, we also wants the chance to find out if we can have a

better relationship with Europe, with more powers return to national

level. I am not denying the force of the arguments. It is a very

major factor. The immediate priority with that is to make sure

we do not lose any of our national decision-making to those changes

taking place in the eurozone. That is what we have successfully sorted

so far. I know you are still hedging on this, but it should be

possible to simply say yes to the suggestion it Europe goes

completely Federal, we will have a referendum about our relationship

with that Europe? You do not know how it will develop. It is possible

the eurozone could develop into a more concentrated core. A them

moment, it has got to be the UK Independence Party. These people

are going to keep talking about it, the ball will bounce further into

the long grass, they will keep talking about a referendum and it

won't get a chance to vote? Prime Minister will set out things

in the autumn. Things will becoming clearer. You are asking a

hypothetical question. If this happens. That is what they pay me

for. Exactly, and I am paid to make sure I explained the full context,

yes, there are huge changes in Europe. Nobody knows where those

are leading, there may be more treaties, it could be a more

concentrated core of the eurozone. Of course those things that

powerfully to the case for the British people to decide on that

relationship. You have mentioned several times the General Election,

is this an issue the Conservatives will take to the General Election

with a much clearer, harder promise? We will set out our policy

in the General Election and before the General Election. I am not

going to do that now. That would require a great deal of

consultation. Of course, we will have a policy at the General

Election, the European elections on our approach to this. The Prime

Minister in his article is not changing our position, but is

pointing the way to how our thinking is developing and how

policy should be guided in the future. How we should think about

this choice about whether to have a referendum. Not an in or out

decision now but a determination to get a better position for the

United Kingdom. Not trying to pin you to become us, but do you

believe the British people will have a referendum on Europe within

the next five years? It is another way of asking the same question. I

have advocated referendums on a whole series, and I believe there

have been too few, not too many referendums. There are big changes

taking place. As the Conservative Party, we will set out our position

together. We don't answer questions on the basis of guts. I think you

can see from the Prime Minister how are thinking is developing. We want

people to have their say when there is a real choice in front of them.

I don't think I can be more specific now, but in itself it is

being quite specific. Quite specific. Let's turn to Syria. You

laugh just back from yet another conference on it. The talking goes

on. -- you are just back. The truth is, there's nothing we can do about

this? It is deeply frustrating. We are applying sanctions to the

regime, denying it revenue, we are helping to gather the international

coalition that can work together. It is not the case that there is

nothing we can do. But is it deeply frustration hundreds of people are

dying every week while we talk - of course it is. I spent 10 hours

talking to the foreign ministers of Russia, China and other countries

about what we can do. We made a step forward which is worth having,

that we agreed with Russia and China what a tremendous --

transitional Government should look like. It should be made up of

people from the present Government, the opposition and other groups on

the basis of mutual consent at which would exclude President Assad

from that. That is a step forward, in my view on Russia's position. We

now have to bring this about. about this notion of giving Bashar

al-Assad safe passage and guarantee he can live in relative safe

ignominy some were away from Syria to allow the transition to happen?

We have not had that discussion. In my view those terrible for terrible

crime should answer to them. But Syria is not part of the

International Criminal Court. We can only refer it to the

International Criminal Court with the agreement of Russia and China.

As things stand, that could happen. There is no sign that President

Assad wants to take such an exit at the moment. We are some way from

resolving this, but we are putting great energy into it. Probably 100

nations will come together in Paris next Friday, to work out how we can

increase pressure on the regime to stop this killing. Why are you so

hard line on not letting Iran to be part of this? It is a huge country

and very powerful. Is it because you think an Iranian influenced

post President Assad era would be more dangerous? We think Iran is

taking an active part with the regime in its killing. If it is

possible to have those talks, to make progress with 10 other nations

including Russia and China, it would have been near on impossible

with Iran in the same room blocking almost everything we wanted to

decide. The presence of Iran wouldn't help us to move forward

and reach any kind of international agreement. If we want to achieve

anything we are not able to have Iran in the same room. Foreign

Secretary, thanks for joining us. The Foreign Secretary, William

Hague, has told this programme and there will be a very powerful case

for a referendum on the EU. If other member states agreed a much

closer union. But, he said the time to decide would be when it is clear

how Europe will develop and have the UK's relationship with the EU

could be made better. The chairman of the Financial Services Authority

has confirmed the regulator is investigating possible interest-

rate fixing at other banks other than Barclay's and collusion. Lord

Turner said the scandal of round the libel market had been a shock

to the reputation of the banking industry. And the business

secretary has condemned what he calls the incompetent corruption

and greed in British banking. Vince Cable called on shareholders to get

a stronger grip. That's all from me for now, the

next news is at midday. Now look back what is coming up after the

programme. Greed, we are outraged by banking

greed, but is it a necessary evil? The German court calls for a ban on

male circumstances and for religious reasons. For Jews and

Muslims call it a direct attack on their religion.

And the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, what can be done

about it. She rose to fame at the age of 16,

and Mount Joss Stone is back with a sequel to her first collection. And

she is not got any shoes on. You have been working hard, but you

British fans have not been seen that much of you? I have been at

home walking my dogs. You have gone back to your first album, The Soul

Sessions. Tell us about this? first album was all covers. We are

doing it again, pretty much. there an endless number of great

songs? Exactly. This one we will sing, I think it is the most well

known, possibly because it is the only one I knew. The guide that

help me picked the songs, he picked some obscure songs I have never

heard before, but this one is pretty well known in this country.

For those who want to see you in concert, will they get a chance any

time soon? In September I will play my mum's Club, Mamma stone in

Exeter. You have kept faithful to your West Country roots? Are caused,

yes. Thanks very much. -- of course. I am back next Sunday with guest

including Vince Cable and Simon Russell Beale, the actor. Thanks

for watching and we leave you with # Whenever I hear goodbyes.

# Remind me baby of you. # I break down and cry.

# Next time I'll be true, yeah. # Fever for lost romance.

# Remind me baby of you. # I took a crazy chance.

# Next time I'll be true. # I'll be true, I'll be true.

# Footsteps on the dance floor. # Remind me baby of you.