24/06/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning and welcome. Almost obligatory to start today with

something about the tax avoiding comedian Jimmy Carter. The best

comment comes from the radio presenter Jamie Theakston who

points out, Jimmy Carr earned �3.5 million last year. After tax that

is nearly �3.5 million. All of that food for thought I am sure in our

review of the Sunday papers this morning. The economist and author

Dambisa Moyo is joined by the Independent journalist Mary Ann

Sieghart. I know the euro crisis seems to have been going on for us

long as this endless, waterlogged, dripping summer, but that does not

make it any less serious. The Italian Prime Minister has said now

there is a week left to save the euro-zone. On the morning when the

newspapers are full of stories about tax and immigration, we are

joined by the former Prime Minister Tony Blair and long time Euro

enthusiast. What is his view of the euro-zone and the Labour Party? The

only Cabinet minister with a rapidly growing budget, the

International Development Secretary Andrew Mitchell is here. He is

going to be telling us if our British taxpayers are getting a

fair deal. Also, the Dalai Lama today speaks

out about the Tibetan monks who have been burning themselves alight.

Despite these dark times he urges us all to remain optimistic.

Speaking of which, who could fail to be up lifted by the sound of the

Simon Bolivar Orchestra? The Venezuelans are wowing audiences

around the world and helping children in Scotland as well. We

will be hearing more from their charismatic conductor Gustavo

Dudamel. All of that after the news. NatWest is opening 1200 branches

across the country today for the first time ever as the bank clears

a massive backlog of payments caused by a computer glitch.

Yesterday the chief executive of the RBS, Stephen Hester, admitted

some customers had been let down by the technical problems which led

many people unable to access their money or pay their bills.

With one of Britain's biggest banks still struggling to get its system

is working properly, some estate agents fear housing chains could

collapse because one buyer could not complete. This man is a NatWest

customer, but is losing money. we cannot get paid commission, we

cannot pay our bills. Then there are my sales people. If they cannot

get paid their commission, they also have mortgages to pay and I

have a responsibility to them. NatWest says all mortgage

completion payments have been processed and it will continue to

make sure that remains the case. Online comments posted on the

website give a flavour of its NatWest cannot say when the backlog

of problems will finally be cleared, but it is promising no-one will

lose money. That applies to anyone who has been affected, not just its

own customers. Thousands of Egyptians have

gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square to wait for the delayed results of

the country's presidential elections. An announcement is due

this afternoon but it is unlikely to resolve the bitter divisions.

Mohammed Mursi of the Muslim Brotherhood and the former prime

minister Ahmed Shafiq have both claimed victory.

The prime minister has suggested people under the age of 25 could

lose the right to housing benefit. Scrapping the benefit for that age

group would save almost �2 billion a year. David Cameron said he

wanted to stop those who were working from feeling resentment

towards those on benefit. Parts of the UK are braced for more

flooding today with the south-west of England thought to be at most

risk. Clean-up operations are taking place in Yorkshire and

Lancashire. Thousands of people were forced from their homes after

the region's stock one month's rain in 24 hours.

England will take on Italy in the Ukraine this evening in the

quarter-finals of Euro 2012. British police in Kiev say they are

expecting around 6000 England fans tonight. A win would see the team

reach the final four in a major tournament for the first time in 16

years. I am back with another update in just under an hour. Now,

back to Andrew. Now to the front pages as usual.

Lots of domestic stories. The Sunday Times is leading with his

story about Argentine athletes disrupting the Olympics over the

Falklands. David Starkey, the British historian has erupted again.

The Archbishop of Canterbury pours scorn on David Cameron's Big

Society in his farewell book. He says it comes across as waffle. The

Sunday Telegraph has a story about those people you meet on the

streets all the time, the charity muggers. They have done a big

investigation into that. They also say it wind farm pylons are going

to cover our national parks. The Sunday Express, there is an

enormous amount of preparatory coverage for the England versus

Italy match today in all the papers. I do not know what is going to

happen if England carry on advancing in the football, there

will be nothing left to read in the papers apart from football?

course they will not, they never do. You said it, I am far too cowardly.

Thank you both for joining us. Where are you going to start?

start with David Cameron's interview with the Mail on Sunday

where he talks about withdrawing housing benefit from the under 25

sq. Maybe restricting child benefit to families with more than three

children. Sorry, restricting child benefit on children after three.

What the Tory party are trying to do is to show the electorate what

they would do it if they were able to govern without those pesky

Liberal Democrats holding them back. We have had a lot from the Liberal

Democrats talking about what they feel strongly about compared with

the Tories. The Tories are now fighting back. They are worried

they will not get a majority after it the next election and they want

to dangle all these goodies to the electorate. If we did not have the

Lib Dems, this is what we would do on our own. This is in the context

of the fear that they will have to cut public spending a lot more for

a lot longer. Another �10 billion from welfare. It is the sort of

thing you might be able to do during a boom, but not in a

recession. These and a 25 year-olds have not got jobs and now they are

saying they are not going to give them benefit either. It is

interesting how many Conservative Party politicians are starting to

jostle publicly and you have picked up Michael Gove. Picking up on the

point about jobs and the opportunities for young people, the

Education Minister is having discussions on the transformation

of the O-level system. One of the things I thought was interesting, I

did a search on the OECD on where the UK ranks in terms of education

globally. In science in 2006, Britain ranked No. 9 and it is now

number 16. In terms of reading in 2000 it was the number seven and it

is now numbered 25. Clearly something needs to be done. I do

not want to speculate whether this is the appropriate thing, but an

over what is required because of the statistics where Britain is

failing to compete. I completely agree. We have got to start looking

at the GCSE and A-level results in Britain and start looking at

Britain compared to other countries. Education secretaries often

complain about coasting schools, but we have got a coasting educates

and system. Even within here, a lot of the banking and commercial

institutions and Industry are struggling to hire people who are

prepared to participate as good workers. Of course we also have to

pay for all of this which takes us on to tax-dodging and tax avoidance.

Another big story with Jimmy Carr. The Times has led the way. This is

the Sunday Times, but the Daily Times has done a very good campaign

in the last week about tax avoidance as opposed to evasion. I

think it is going to have a real effect in terms of stigmatising

people who avoid tax. There has been a great area and a lot of

people like Jimmy Karzai if it is legal, why should I not do it?

There is an outburst of public opprobrium now and a lot of people

have got their money tied up in tax shelters and they will start

looking, how will it look if that comes out? As they should do. There

has been a very interesting division between people who say, it

is absolutely wrong, whatever you call it. And there are others who

say, it is the Government's fault, David Cameron's fault. As long as

the law is there, you should be able to walk in -- work inside that.

But to pay 1% is surely anti-social. Who is going to pay for that?

one per say you should not even be using the roads. On that point,

this is the next leg of a big discussion about the role of

taxation, whether it is in Switzerland where we saw the expose

of private accounts, or whether it is in the United States. You have

picked another story on the Arab Spring. Yes, we are expecting to

get an election result today and there has been this squabbling

between two parties on who exactly is going to win. What strikes me is

there has been so much discussion over the last 18 months about the

role of democracy, what these politicians seem to be missing is

that these are places with 70% of the population under the age of 24

and they need an economic plan. Whoever gets in, needs to focus on

what they need to do to solve that living standards. And the Muslim

Brotherhood has been very good at providing a charity welfare system.

That is right. Whether it is Egypt or Tunisia or across the Arab

Spring, we have spent a lot of time about -- talking about the change

in the political system, but we have done a poor job about

analysing the economic situation. There is a lot of stuff about the

Middle East and in the Sunday Telegraph there is a disturbing

report about the Christians in Syria supporting the regime because

they think they will have problems if the hardline Muslim party strife.

The same problem in Egypt. A you have chosen his story from the

Independent on Sunday which relates to one of hour later guests. It is

the front page, how Blair misled the Cabinet over Iraq. The story is

he did not let his attorney general give both sides of the argument to

Cabinet. He only presented the positive side for award. The

Attorney General says it is much more nuanced and they should hear

both sides. This comes from Alastair Campbell's diaries which

have produced a rich source of stories over the last few days.

Absolutely and there has been a lot about Gordon Brown, but it is

interesting Alastair Campbell was willing to say this about his old

boss. I mentioned the euro at the beginning of the programme and

there is an interesting piece in the Observer pointing out that this

is not a European story, this is a worldwide story. This is a piece on

Brazil, Russia, India and China and saying we are seeing weaknesses in

their economies. 2.2% growth in Brazil. There has been a lot of

discussion on the slowdown in China, around 7%. This is because China

and Brazil are tied into the euro- zone. Very tidy end. What was

interesting is the fact that last week these countries, Brazil,

Russia, India and China announced massive cash inflows to support the

Europeans. India, Brazil and Russia, $10 billion and the United States

and Canada 0. This is emblematic of these growing economies. If it is

the case they are slowing down, we really are in for a serious

economic shock. I would love to have an aggressive slow down to 7%

growth. It puts it all in context. You have been studying for a book,

particularly the effect of China's ravenous appetite for land and

minerals and agriculture around the There are about 20 conflicts raging

around the world that have their origins in commodities. When we

speak about Brazil, Russia, India and China, and particularly China,

the consequences of it -- the consequences of a slowdown are not

just limited to China. It perhaps explains why the summit on climate

change produces such bland generalities rather than

breakthroughs. It is just unbelievable. There is an article

in the Independent about 40,000 environmentalists and 10,000

government officials attending this conference. The notion that they

are going to have a cohesive and co-ordinated approach to

environmental issues is staggering. Think how much aircraft field-day

burn in order to get there! have chosen an interesting piece

from the Sunday Telegraph. Yes, the work world of women's magazines.

There was this 14-year-old girl who committed suicide recently because

she was worried she was too fat. The coroner, very outspokenly,

blamed women's magazines and the sort of body image that is blamed

as an ideal. This is a fascinating piece. It speaks about the horrible

things that go on behind the scenes at women's magazines, for instance,

they would have a range of models to choose from and they would

complain that the thinnest one would be too unhealthy to use, but

the photographer would insist on using the finis -- is the slimmest

model. There was a girl who they used for an under where sheet. This

woman was convinced that she was under-aged and they asked the agent,

and they said, she is 16 and one day. This kills people. Yes,

anorexics die. One magazine did a survey of its readers and three-

quarters of them said that they felt fat. That is shocking. We have

not even mentioned the weather and sport that actually fills most of

the newspapers, but we thought this would be a great British summer in

a Jubilee and celebratory and Olympics sort of way. In some ways

it has been, but also in more traditional ways. Yes, I realised

that I had the good fortune to travel to 50 countries, and in

coming back to London, I thought, this is what Britain is known for.

It has rain, football and festivities going on. But the

gardens look beautiful. I have never seen such amazing roses.

Belfast last week it was apparently colder than at Christmas and in the

North of England, people have been coping with as much rain in a

single day as normally falls in one month. This week we have Wimbledon

month. This week we have Wimbledon starting, so that is all right then.

Over to Sarah Keith-Lucas in the weather studio.

Good morning. We have some drier weather on the scene. Today things

are drying up. We started the day on a cloudy note. That is down to

this weather front. It is still hanging on in the south-east. It

will push away over the next few hours and behind it most of us will

see a much better day. It's some heavy showers across the north-east

of Scotland. For the north-west of England, it is looking dry, and

find, for the Olympic torch rate as it heads towards Leeds. Most places

avoiding showers over East Anglia. Some showers in central and

southern England, and it could be cloudy across Cornwall, but Gethin

looks fine and dry. For Wales, some showers inland, but around the

coasts, it is a brighter picture. Cloudy in Northern Ireland. Things

are getting warmer, and Monday looks like a fine and Friday. 20

looks like a fine and Friday. 20 degrees.

Thank you. Two winners of the Nobel Peace Prize turned up in the UK at

once last week, Aung San Suu Kyi, and the exiled leader of the

Tibetans, the Dalai Lama. He has had a difficult life by any

standards, taken from his parents and declared a living god at the

age of two. He was brought up by Buddhist monks and enthroned as

head of state at the age of 15. When China invaded the country, as

he fled the country a few years later. For decades he led a

government in exile in northern India and despite recently giving

up any claim for political power, as he continues to campaign for

Tibetan economy. His followers believe him to be the 14th

incarnation of the original Dalai Lama. When we met in London a few

days ago, I asked him, will there be any more? If the majority of

people, according to certain circumstances, they want this

institution, or if they feel that it is not relevant, then there is

no problem. Perhaps this institution will cease with grace.

So you are the last Dalai Lama? That is possible. If the majority

of people want to keep this institution, then the question is,

how do we choose a successor? Perhaps they could do the same way

as they choose a pauper. Choosing a leader. Seniority. They could

choose among top scholars. So it is like biggest cardinal's? Yes, that

is not unknown. I read that not only were you attracted by some

aspects of communism when you were younger, you actually met their

leader. Tell me about the impression that he made? He appears

to me as a father. He considered me his son. We had very good relations.

I would like to share with you, but the only problem is, when there is

an official dinner, yes, Chairman Mao was there, so then, Chinese

tradition, he used his own job state to put food on my plate. In a

way, it was a great honour, but in another way, I felt fear. He was

coughing too much, as he was a chain smoker. I was worried about

germs. You have been in exile from Tibet for well over 50 years, but

do you think you will ever go back? Tibetans want me to return as soon

as possible, before they are dead. More sensible people, more educated,

also politically sensitive people, their message is that under the

present circumstances I should remain outside. Stay outside?

I side in a free country. You can do more for us in a free country.

If you return, you will become like a prisoner. Back in Tibet, there

has been a terrible outbreak of people burning themselves alive.

This must come from a sense of desperation. What do you feel about

that movement? A tis very sad, very sad. -- it is very sad. Burning

yourself is a very sensitive political issue. Since I retired, I

prefer to remain silent. In the meantime, since the first events

happened, Chinese leaders should carry out a thorough investigation

into the causes of these sad events. You are in this country speaking to

people at a time when there is a great deal of upset and unease

about the economy, people are worried about the future and their

own jobs. Why have you, at this time and what is your message to

people who are worried about their economic and personal futures?

of the factors in this crisis is too much greed, and speculation.

Speculation means that without knowing exactly what is happening,

people do things according to their own wishes. These economists, it is

a temporary benefit or profit, rather than the long term. When I

was in China, I learnt about the Marxist economy. There are the

emphasis is on equal distribution rather than just profit. I think

this problem is created by our self. Therefore, we also have the ability

to overcome this problem. Secondly, in spite of these difficulties, we

should not give up hope. We must keep our determination and self

confidence, that is very important. Due to some problems, we should not

be demoralised. You never recover from that. In spite of these

problems, keep your optimistic attitude and sooner or later, we

will overcome them. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.

It's the Dalai Lama. As a proportion of national income,

the UK is now one of the world's most generous donors of

international aid. The government wants to make British taxpayers

more aware of how their money is spent. But at a time of austerity

at home, can the budget for International Development be

justified? I am joined by the Secretary of State, Andrew Mitchell.

You are announcing that you are going to stamp British aid in

future with a mark, showing where it comes from. We can see an

example of that, and my question is, what is the point of this? Why are

we doing it? I think it is important that all around the world

where British aid is saving and transforming lives, the British

public gets the credit for this. There was a previous logo which

cost �100,000 to develop, which said it a bit from the Department

of International Development. We are replacing this at no cost with

a flag that is identifiable all round the world to everybody. This

will enable us to take the credit for these remarkable results we're

achieving around the world, we are getting 11 million children into

school up at 2.5 % of the cost of educating a British child. We are

delivering value for money from this Budget. In a sense, this is

reassurance for people back home, some of whom, including in your own

party, think that at a time of austerity it is wrong that your

budget is the only one that is guaranteed to keep going? It is

making sure that people in the poorest parts of the world know

that this is Britain's standing by its commitments and delivering. For

under 1% of gross national income, this is a tremendous investment,

not only in the future stability and prosperity of some of the

poorest and most dysfunctional parts of the world, it is an

investment in Britain's future prosperity and stability. Lots of

people are worried that the next generation will not be able to do

as well and prosper in the way that our generation has done, and the

development budget is an investment in the future of our Chavasse --

Why was the commitment to the international target not enshrined

in law in the Queen's Speech? People expected that and it was an

odd omission. The key thing is we are standing by our commitments and

from 20 13th we will reach 0.7. was it not put into the Queen's

Speech? It will be put into law. The Bill will proceed when the

business managers say. Is this because the Conservative Party is

neuralgic about this? No, we stand by our commitment, the law will

come, but declaratory legislation should take second preference to

the legislation which has been passed. It will be enshrined in

law? Yes, it will. You have major conferences every so often giving

you a sense of direction for aid in the coming year and this week you

have got one on fertility issues and contraception. Every year we

tried to do something which can both make a huge contribution to

the lives of the poorest in the world and also demonstrate to

British taxpayers why it is a difficult time for our economy and

why we stand by these commitments. Last year it was the emphasis on

vaccinating children and as a result of the effort we put

together last year, Britain will be inoculating a child every two

seconds and saving the life of a child every two minutes. These are

not exotic, tropical diseases. It is diarrhoea, pneumonia and measles.

That was last year and it was a tremendous success and we have

exceeded the target and the results we wanted to achieve. This year it

will be a family planning summit in London which we are co-hosting with

the Bill Gates Foundation. We will be seeking to get political and

financial support to reduce by 100 million the number of women in the

poorest parts of the world who want access to contraception and do not

have it. We are trying to ensure that women in the poorest parts of

the world are able to make decisions themselves over whether

and when they will have Jordan. It will completely transformed the

lives of more than 100 million of the poorest women in the world.

This comes straight up against some pretty powerful cultural, religious

and political barriers, plenty of places in the world where this is

thought to be a fencer, foreign governments coming in and trying to

control the reproductive abilities of women in Muslim and other

traditional areas. It is absolutely not that. If you look at the

Nairobi consensus there is nothing against what we are doing. It is to

enable women who want access to contraception cut -- to exercise

their own right. It will save the lives of millions of women and more

than 3 million babies in their first year of life as a result.

What happens to Africa if the population carries on rising at

this rate? That is another matter and it is relevant but what we are

trying to do in London is fair square behind empowering women,

allowing women in the poorest parts of the world to make their own

decisions, decisions which women in the rich world make every day.

Let's turn to domestic concerns. The Archbishop of Canterbury is

deriding the Big Society as waffled and suggesting actually it is a

cover for the withdrawal of the state under a Conservative-led

Government. A is absolutely not that. It is the reverse of that and

we do not always explain it as well as we should. It is about crowding

in all parts of society, the Government, local Government, the

voluntary sector, civil society, to tackle these big, endemic problems

which all of us have tried to articulate and tackle. The

Archbishop and died will be announcing this week a joint effort

between the Government and all faiths on tackling poverty in the

poorest parts of the world. We have been working on this for a year. I

think the headline belies the extraordinary amount of agreement

on tackling poverty here and abroad which exists between this coalition

Government and the Church of England. Any thoughts on the whole

Jimmy Carr and tax avoidance. This is legal, but aggressive ways of

avoiding paying income tax. Should people like that be morally Shand?

Everybody should pay their tax. That is the key message the

Government is making. It is extremely important, not least at a

time like this when money is incredibly tight, that people pay

their tax and that is the central message of the Government. Andrew

Mitchell, thank you very much. One of the most exciting arrivals on

the classical music scene has been the Simon Bolivar Orchestra from

Venezuela which emerged through a radical music programme called El

Sistema which gets children from poorer backgrounds and immerses

them in music from a very early age. Its conductor Gustavo Dudamel are

currently in the UK. Last Thursday they launched the Cultural Olympiad

with an open-air concert at Stirling in Scotland where local

children from one of the tougher areas have their own version of El

Sistema. Now the Venezuelans are playing at the South Bank Centre in

London and I met Gustavo Dudamel where he told me more about El

Sistema. It is an artistic, social programme that already has around

400,000 children and young people playing. In Venezuela? 400,000

children are playing classical? And these are kids who have come from

poor backgrounds? A big percentage is coming from disadvantaged

conditions. What is it about an orchestra that is so good at

reclaiming children and giving them a chance? You can see the change in

a child when he or she has an instrument and they create their

own world and they start to build a into a dream about a better life.

Also in our orchestra, we are a community. We have to grow up

together, together with 100 musicians next to you. You are

making the same dream. To give beauty to people. When you were

rehearsing, everybody is relying on everybody else and watching

everybody else and moving together. An orchestra is the most beautiful

example of a society. It is discipline. It is discipline, but

at the same time it is creativity because you have to put your own

creativity there, disharmony, disputed. It is art and all of

these elements create not only a better musician, but a better

citizen. A lot of people hope and wonder whether El Sistema can be

exported to other countries. You started at London 2012 with a

Scottish version of El Sistema, the big noise. That is a big

inspiration for us. I remember when I saw the first rehearsals, but

teachers trying to explain the instrument to the children and the

discipline was a little bit difficult. Now when you see this

orchestra, they are really small, they are aged between four and nine.

For us we went back to where we started. It obviously went very

well in Scotland. Absolutely. rain poured down and everyone was

in their capes, but they stayed all the way through it. Yes, for an

orchestra to play in the open air it is not easy because of the sound

conditions. It was a little bit cold for a tropical Orchestra. But

then it was amazing. How do you think the idea of the conductor has

changed? In the old days conductors were quite forbidding, generally

elderly, revered figures. We did not hear much about them. You let

people in to see the orchestra rehearsing. You seem to want to

demystify it. I think times change. We have different conditions in our

society than we did 100 years ago. The most important thing is that we

have to change the view that the people have of classical music. AC

classical music as something boring, but at the same time that concept

is coming because it is so elitist. This is music for the rich, or

music for people who have the chance to get rich. The orchestra

not only has to wait for the people to come to them, we also have to go

to the community like in Raploch where we played for around 8000

people. We went to the community. I think maybe 80% of the audience, it

was the first time they listened to classical music. And what about the

Simon Bolivar Orchestra itself? You started together very young and you

have grown up together and most of you are in your thirties now.

Almost. Are you changing as an orchestra? I say to the

professional orchestras that I conduct, when I say a little bit of

routine, let's remember when you were young and when we started to

play, when we were studying and when we were in love with music and

we were fighting to get to this position where we are now. That is

beautiful because you can change in age, but the spirit has to be the

same. We have to bring music to people and that is our dream.

you are living it. We are living dead. Thank you. A big pleasure.

unconventional maestro at the Royal Festival Hall. We will be hearing

more from the Simon Bolivar Orchestra at the end of the show.

It is 15 years since Tony Blair entered Downing Street after his

first election landslide and this week sees the anniversary of his

exit, five years ago. He has continued his role in the Middle

East, he has written his memoirs and enjoyed a lucrative career in

business. It is reported he is more keen to take a role in domestic

politics in support of Ed Miliband and Labour. We welcome on to

domestic politics in a moment, but can we start about the euro crisis.

We have had a warning from the Spanish premier there is only a

week to save the Europe. Fundamentally, how serious is this

for Britain? It is fundamental for Europe and for Britain. The only

thing that will save the single currency now is in a sense a grand

plan in which Germany is prepared to commit its economy fully to the

single currency. That means treating the DEC's of one as the

debt of all, which is very hard for Germany to do. It means those other

countries in the euro-zone that need to reform need to deliver the

programmes of reform so that Europe can regain its competitiveness.

Otherwise it is unfair to ask Germany to pay, but that is what is

necessary now. German paying for the others and without that the

euro is doomed? It is hard to see otherwise how you have countries

whose economies are in a very different state of development

operating within a single zone. Europe in a sense has been

presented with a choice on the one hand of austerity plus reform, but

on the other hand growth and no reform. It needs growth plus reform.

It means reform of public welfare, the role of the state, pensions and

so on. Within Europe what has happened is the single currency's

design flaw was motivated by politics and delivered in economics.

What had to happen once the country joined the euro economy, they had

to adjust their economies and they did not. Now they are having to do

that in a time of crisis. It is really tough asking countries to do

Daz unless they have got growth and hopes of employment. That takes us

took a hard core, much more are fused together central Europe and

we are still on the outside of it. That is a big challenge for Britain.

Whatever happens in the euro-zone now, if it collapses or if it stays,

you are going to get major change in Europe. You will have a coming

together in the so-called fiscal compact, a huge support for banking

union in Europe and a political reconstruction of Europe. If you

are going to exercise more control over the economy is in the single

currency zone, people will want the political accountability that comes

with that. In any event there is going to be a huge reconstruction

of Europe going on. For Britain we have got to make sure we are part

of that and we have to argue the case for it and argue it on our own

After the latest volume of Alastair Campbell's diaries, it might be

said that say what you like about Gordon Brown, but he kept us out of

the euro. You wanted us to be in the euro. On that at least, you

must say, good old Gordon Brown. the economics he was always right.

Politically, I was always in favour of keeping us positive towards the

project if European integration and able to join at any time we wanted

to do so. I think the same is true today. The thing that is important

for our country is to understand that the Eurozone is undergoing a

massive crisis, the most existential crisis since its

inception, however, take a step back and look at the broad sweep of

history. Because of the way the world is changing today, the size

and power of India, China. Take a country like Indonesia, we do not

know much about it here, but its economy is three times the size of

Germany. In the long term, the project of European integration

will go ahead. It is important we are part of that, 60 million people

in a small nation, if we want to exercise influence, we must do it

through the European Union. Do you think that means we will have to be

part of the euro one day? Is the sort it all out and Europe moves

forward again, Britain will have an interesting choice in the future.

Even if they have to reconstruct the euro as a result of what has

happened, supposing the worst happens. Take a step back and look

at this not in terms of an electoral cycle, batted

generational cycle. The European project is there. Where does

democracy fit into this? The that is a good question. You can only

have a democracy where everyone speaks the same language and

understand each other. It is difficult to see that happening

across 22 different countries. Absolutely. One of the reasons it

is important that Britain is still there, building alliances and

arguing its case, is that in the politics of Europe we have

something very unique to contribute. Our political system is in many

ways the most effective. In my experience of dealing with the

European Union, I would say that the British, when the exert

themselves, usually get their way. When this political reconstruction

happens, it is important that we are part of that. We have short-

term choices about how we manage the situation, but the only way to

preserve the euro is a sort of grand plan, these incremental

changes with the Spanish banks are not enough. We need a fundamental

plan that is put before people were the thing is sorted out, where we

clean up the balance sheets of the banks, and organise reform

programmes in these various countries. In the long term there

is a reconstruction of Europe in which our country has got to have

its voice heard. There is a story in the Independent today, alleging

that you, it says, the last street, how Tony Blair misled the Cabinet

over Iraq. The allegation coming from Alastair Campbell's diaries is

that you did not want the then Attorney-General, Lord Goldsmith,

to present both sides of the case, the case that the war was legal,

because it would be too dangerous in cabinet. Is this true? It is not

true. We went through this at the Chilcot inquiry. I will never win

this argument with people like the Independent. It is worth

remembering two interesting anniversaries that have occurred

recently. One is the use of Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons against

a Kurdish town. The second is the anniversary of the Iran Iraq war,

where we should remember that hundreds of thousands of conscript

Iranians lost their lives, again through the use of chemical weapons.

That is something which triggered the Iranian interest in developing

nuclear weapons. I understand why people still have is disagreement

over Iraq, but we should at least understand there is a balanced

perspective on it. Just to be absolutely clear, because the

question of what cabinet government really is is relevant. It is not

true that you stop there being a proper discussion of the legal case

with the Attorney General quitting his position in front of cat mac,

because people disagreed? It is absolutely not true. People had

their point of view. The notion that Cabinet never discussed this

issue is absurd. I understand while people disagree over it, but there

is no great head and -- but there is no great hidden conspiracy over

this. When you look at the Middle- East today, in the broad sweep of

history, people will take a different view. We're still waiting

to hear the formal result of the Egyptian elections but it looks

likely that the Muslim Brotherhood candidate will win. That seems to

be the sense. What is your reflection on the problem that the

more democracy you get, we are in favour of democracy, but democracy

may well deliver Islamist people in power, because we have seen that

Christians in Syria are now very worried about what happens when the

President goes. What is the answer? The answer is to understand that

the Arab Revolution which is continuing and will carry on, I do

not collet and Arab Spring, it is a revolution, it will continue across

the whole region and beyond. It is not like the fall of the Berlin

Wall. This is a mistake for western analysts to think this. In the case

of the Berlin Wall, people from the east looked over the wall and there

was a united view. They wondered what we had in the West stand by

and large they got it. Here, there are two views about what happens

when you lift the lid off these dictators. One is about secularity

and modernisation. The other is about religion. You cannot

understand the Middle-East unless you understand the importance of

religion. Those things are not reconcilable? Absolutely. For the

West, we should realise, and this is unfortunate, we have two

problems at the same time for Western leaders, Europe and the

Middle East. These different crisis is are together. -- are these

different issues are together. We should be supporting the evolution

across the Middle East. We should understand that revolution will

throw up very dangerous and toxic forces. What is necessary is to

understand that short term, this is going to be really difficult. In

the long term, this is good. People in the Middle-East want freedom.

The bad news is that they will be struggling to get to a form of

democracy that is genuinely open. Five years since you left Downing

Street. We read that you want to take a roll again in British public

life again. Lots of the issues that you struggled with her back on the

front pages, immigration, for instance. Ed Miliband says that

Labour got it wrong over immigration? Is that a fair point?

It is fair in some ways. I actually took this decision and in some ways

I do not regret it, because the Polish community and other

communities from Eastern Europe do good work in our country. But I

understand how there is a marked sensitivity about that. We fought

the 2005 election on immigration with the then Conservative leader

wanted to make that a point of attack for us. We had a policy at

the time, identity cards, which have gone out of fashion. I still

think they are the only way to deal with the problem. Many people in

Britain can see that immigrants have made a great contribution to

our country. It is where it is uncontrolled, and you have

organised crime and drugs and so on. That is very specific from certain

parts. What about the party generally, because there has been a

debate about his future, we hear about blue Labour, Jon Cruddas,

going back to connect to some of the core supporters who may have

drifted away during the new Labour leader it -- during the years of

New Labour. What is your reflection on this? Those people who feared

that Labour would go like we did in 1979 when we were defeated and went

crazy for a few years, we are not, we are going to be in contention at

the next election. That is a tribute to the leadership.

surprise that Ed Miliband has done better than you may have feared at

the beginning? I have always thought that Ed Miliband was a

smart man. I was a supporter of David, because I worked closely

with him and I admire him very much. I am still unashamedly a supporter

of the Third Way. The way that politics is going this -- it today,

you need a progressive view. For me, playing a part in British politics,

I have spent five years building a brand new life. I have two major

global foundations, one of which works in Africa, the other is about

religious extremism and how we get different fates working together. I

have just come back from my 86 a visit to the Middle East. So is

there another big job for you in terms of the Middle East? I have

always said that I am a public service person first. I it was

happy as Prime Minister. But if I am not doing that, I'm going to

make a difference in another way. Where I can contribute, I will if

people want to listen. In case they want to listen, what about Jimmy

Carr? Tax avoidance rather than evasion? Any sympathy for him?

think the mood on this has changed. What people would not have cared

about a few years back, if you are in a time of economic difficulty

and austerity, they care about these things. I do not want to

single out one person. The mood on this debate has changed. This is a

tough time and people need to know that the pain is being shared.

Blair, thank you very much. That is all we have time for. Next Sunday,

I'll be talking to the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, the actor

Mark Rylance, and the American civil rights activist Jesse Jackson.

He's in London for a big debate on Tuesday about hip-hop culture,